Hello everyone, welcome back to the Underrated Movie podcast.

This is a podcast where we discuss films that are underrated, underappreciated and ones that have gone under the radar and passed most people by.

I am your host Derek Mcduff, and today we are going to be discussing the 2000 thriller supernatural film written by Billy Bob Thornton and directed by Sam Raimi, starring Cate Blanchett, Giovanni Rubisi, Hilary Swank, Katie Holmes, Greg Kinnear.

And the reason we're here today, the one and only Keanu Reeves.

And joining me to discuss the film is the author of the book Much Ado About Keanu, a critical Reeves theory to Zine Davey Kohler.

How's it going?

Hi.

Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be here and talk about one of my favorite.

Actually, this is one of my top five Keanu films.

So.

Oh yeah.

Nice.

Yeah, yeah.

Because my top five is is all is mostly deep cuts.

So this is this is really, this is up there and it's oh, the criminally underrated.

Like if you have a, if you have a section of that on the podcast, like this belongs there because how for 25 years this movie has been overlooked and it is so good.

It's and it's still got so many levels.

Man.

I'm really looking forward to diving in with you.

Yes, yes, Very excited to talk about it here with you because, yeah, this is a movie I, I think I was aware of, but like was not even really too familiar with.

And when we were initially talking about it, there was a lot of obviously underrated Keanu stuff that you talk about in your book.

This is one of them.

And I was kind of like, there's a Keanu Reeves movie with Cate Blanchett.

It's it's it's like a spooky thriller.

Sam Raimi, one of my favorite directors, directed it.

So I was very interested in that.

You know, before we get too far into that, obviously you're a Keanu scholar.

You wrote, you literally wrote the book on the guy.

What did you want to let the people know about the book before we dive into the the gifts specifically?

So the book is really my homage to Keanu as an incredibly talented performer.

I feel like, I feel like a lot of the discussion about Keanu is about him being a really good person, which he is.

He's a delightful human being and I've met him a bunch of times and he's so wonderful and he's so lovely.

But he's also a really fantastic actor and I feel like a lot of times the discussion about him, about his persona, it overtakes his, his acting, his work.

And he is infamously A workaholic.

And so why we're not talking about his work?

That baffles me.

And so that's why I wrote a whole book redirecting the conversation toward his brilliant work.

And this is the Gift is, is one of the films I talk about quite a lot in the movie because his work in it is extraordinary and terrifying.

And yeah, there's so many details about this movie that I I love so much.

And so I'm, I really, I hope that folks will check it out after listening to us dish on it because, man, this movie and it's a 25 year anniversary this year.

So like it really, it really needs a revival.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, very, very excited to talk about it here with you.

But yeah, as you mentioned, this is when you talk about a ton in your book.

You know, I was I was reading the book and and definitely, you know, read the chapter.

I'm not finished with it yet, I will admit, but I'm really loving it so far.

I definitely read the chapter on his underrated films.

I read all the parts about the gift, you know, so obviously you have a lot of compassion for this movie, a lot of love for it.

This was the first time watch for me.

I was very out, you know, spoiler alert, I love this movie.

Is this is great one.

I'm so glad that we this is the one we chose to talk about.

But what do you what do you think about the gift overall?

I think, well, one of the things I love so much about it is there's just so few Southern Gothic films, and I feel like this is one that really falls into that genre.

And the fact that it's directed by the guy who did Evil Dead and Spider Man.

Yes, yes.

It's because it's not just underrated for Keanu.

I feel like it's an underrated film for everyone in the movie because everyone brings their egg game to this film.

Cate Blanchett as the psychic, wow she is brilliant.

Hilary Swank as this like battered woman married to Keanu Reeves's abuser character and like wow, she's phenomenal.

Katie Holmes as the socialite Greg Kinnear.

I mean not to like spoiler, like not to give spoilers, but like.

We can spoil it.

We can spoil it.

My because like I feel like that's his first one role when you know, when that especially when the film came out in 2000, like Greg was like he was the good guy.

He was the he was Mr.

like happy go lucky.

He's always in comedies.

He's so lovely.

He's so likable.

And and you have this like turn where like Keanu is Mr.

likable and in this film he's the domestic abuser.

And then Greg Kinnear has this twist in his character.

I mean everyone in this film.

Even Gary Cole is hitting it out of the park in this movie.

Like I I love Gary Cole.

Yes.

I love him too.

So, so good.

And Oh my gosh, I mean, all the bit players, even all the people in the Sheriff's Office, so incompetent.

Like, I mean, like just I feel like they all understood the assignment.

And that's what makes it to me so criminally underrated because how is a movie with such good acting, such great writing, the performances, everything is so good in this film and it just has somehow escaped everyone.

Like when I mentioned that it's one of my top five Keanu movies, most people are like, wait, and they get confused because then there's a new movie that came out called The Gift that has Jason.

Yeah, which is not good.

I mean, it's fine.

It's it's fine.

It's OK if you're just like, if you're really into like these weird kind of stalker thriller kind of films that are kind of ambiguous or whatever, It's it's fine.

It's but it's it doesn't even compare to this gift.

And I'm like, why would you just why would you just take this title?

Like it's because again, this movie is so underrated that they're like, oh, nobody even knows about Sam Rae means the Gift.

So like, let's just use this title like, oh, insert eye roll here.

No, no, it's just wrong.

Just wrong.

So I mean, honestly, that new that new movie called The gift, I already hated it even before I watched it because I'm like, how dare you take the title of one of my favorite Keanu movies?

Like what is wrong with you people?

There were so many other things.

You could have called it the present.

You're going to call it the present.

Anything.

Anything.

Yeah, yeah.

Because it's this isn't even about a gift.

This is about her like having this power, right?

Like she's, she like Kate Blanchett's character Annie is she's, you know, got a gift that she can, she has dreams about the future.

She reads cards and she then dreams and and knows what's about to happen.

And it's not a gift, right?

It's a curse.

So that the title of the film is ironic.

It's she's Cassandra and and she's she's yes, she's fated to not be believed and wow.

And I mean, and then you see like the way that her gift is manipulated through different characters in the film.

I mean, Oh my gosh, I've probably watched this movie like 100 times.

And every time I watch it, I'm like, oh, is this so good?

Like, you don't see it coming?

And I usually can.

I usually have the gift where I know what's going to happen in the film with that.

Respect.

Yeah, Yeah.

I can, you know, because you can, if you can read people's faces, you're like, oh, wait, something's up with these two.

Like something's happening here.

But like, this ending floored me.

And I think even now, I just remember how I felt the first time I watched it, being so shocked by the by the the Greg Kinnear switch and just being like that.

I just did not see it coming.

It was his performance masterful.

All of them should have been nominated for awards.

And just bothers me that that this to this day, like nobody gets recognition for this film and it's so excellent.

Yeah, it's, it's really a shame because like, yeah, this is a spectacular movie.

I didn't really know what to expect going on other than, you know, this is a movie with Keanu.

It's, you know, as I said, Sam Raimi directs it and interesting.

Like this is a movie that comes out about a year after The Matrix and about two years before Spider Man 1.

So like this is like you're getting like a real convergence of like two people that are like really popping off.

And, you know, you mentioned so many, you know, supporting characters in this.

And obviously, I think Raimi notices a couple supporting characters in this because obviously Rosemary Harris and JK Simmons are in this, who would then go on to be very important characters in the Spider Man trilogy.

So he's got obviously a real eye for performances, which I think you see with a lot of with them and everybody else in the movie.

But yeah, like watching this, I was like, wow, this is incredible.

And I I really had no idea going in what it was going to be.

When I saw that Keanu was like this wife abuser, it was like, this is a very different role that I'm used to seeing Keanu in, you know, and.

Yeah, yeah.

You obviously talk about Keanu and we'll get into it probably at some later.

But like his like, identity is like, you know, how he's like folks is like kind of white passing in a lot of movies.

And, you know, people put that onto him and how he's kind of like a good old Southern boy in this I think is really interesting.

And he drops racist remarks at some points.

It is just this terrible person, but he still brings some humanity as as does everyone in this, especially I'm I it's on the record that I am a huge, huge fan of Cate Blanchett.

Like I am a stand for her to this day.

Like, I mean, even up to the black bag.

I'm just like, you know, which is 25 years later and she's still like gorgeous and killing it and just like, yes, Queen, please go up.

I just love how weird and like, you know, you said, like you said, there's not a lot of gothic supernatural thrillers like this that are especially like the South.

And this felt to me like, if so, if someone was like, hey, let's make a John like a classic 90s, early 2000s John Grisham movie, but put that like Sam Raimi spin on it.

So like it's got all these supernatural things and people are like there's, there's definitely hints up like that, that rainy like Evil dead vibe in it where it's like, you know, like she's seeing these horrific visions and then.

So grotesque.

Right, or when Katie Holmes gets kind of like drug up from like underwater like that is like she like that is horrific scene and then like the dad is like no, get those looks out of my dog.

Like there is some gnarly stuff in this and I, I absolutely love everything that that Raimi was doing with this, you know, like this, this is, you know, I've seen a lot of films that are kind of like folk horror, right?

You know, like Midsummer, like there's a really great documentary about folk horror movies.

This feels like a folk thriller, right?

It's not like straight up horror.

It's more like a kind of thriller that you would see.

You know, I'm more like, oh, whodunit mystery type thing then like here's a straight up horror movie.

But it does still have that folk like Southern like all right, here's we've got a fortune teller and they're going to tell us in the cards are going to tell us where the body at and stuff.

And.

Yeah.

And like you said, the mystery in this is so good because we're on the same page.

I'm usually like, OK, I can kind of tell who's who, who's the bad guy in this, what the big twist is going to be.

This person is either way too sketchy or they they seem like way too nice and they're obviously like the bad guy.

But this one it it it gives you, it doesn't spend too much time on any of the characters because it feels like it really could be any number of people, right?

It it could be like, obviously we know it's not Keanu Reeves, but we're like, OK, could it be Greg Kinnear?

Could it be Hillary Swank?

You know, could it, could it be, you know, could it be Gary Cole?

There's that whole scene which she's like, because you know, it gives you enough reason to think maybe it's him.

There's because she's Katie Holmes is having the affair with him.

And when she's like at his office and he's like, right, what do I have to convince you to drop this case?

You're like, get out of there, get out of there.

He might be the murderer, you know?

But then and then she's like, and then she goes, so it's like that John Mulaney bit where he's like, never go to a second location.

And she does that twice in a row where she goes to a second location to go see Gary Cole.

And then she goes to the creepy Murder Lake with Great Kinnear and you're like, what are you doing?

Get the fuck out of there, you know?

And yeah.

Yeah, and then Rabisi kind of comes back as a ghost and saves her, which I except first I was like, OK, some some one of these male leads is going to come back and save her.

And I was like all right, whatever, that's fine.

But then the fact that he's a ghost and this ghost of like, you know, after he's been through this tortured past and the sexual abuse and everything like, and he comes back and you're like it it all, it works so much better.

The fact that he is like this, this ghostly figure that saves her, that connects into like her, her power, you know, her spirituality, her ability to reach out gifts.

Exactly.

So yeah, I think all of that is is really fantastic, you know?

Yeah.

Oh, absolutely.

And I think, and one of the things that I talk about in my book about Keanu's heritage, because he is, you know, he's indigenous Hawaiian and Chinese as well as white.

He's multiracial.

And so you know, his, when you bring his heritage into account, you know, there are a lot of a lot of indigenous and a lot of Asian people who live in the South.

I mean, I lived in Florida for 13 years and I was like 1 of like 5.

So, you know, so I feel like, I feel like that's also like a really important moment for Southern Gothic to have an Asian person and an Asian and an indigenous person on screen because there are those folks living in the South and it's a particular.

Sinners, because Sinners has a great Asian couple in it.

So, yeah.

And also a lot of indigenous characters.

But yeah, so finally, 25 years later, we're seeing it.

But this was an early example.

Exactly, But again, this is again back in 2000.

And so, you know, to have just because just a Keanu's presence by himself, like he brings that representation.

And I think that's that's a really, that's another thing about this movie that I really, really love is that, you know, Keanu in in unexpected places like that, he he brings a whole another level of nuance to the story.

And, and the fact that he's the first one who's targeted, right?

He's one of the only people of color in the story and everyone assumes that he's the killer, right.

And so like I also, I find that the, the racial politics when you bring his heritage into it also just adds a whole, a whole other level to what it means to be accused of a crime in the South when you're a man of color, right.

So, yeah.

So I feel like there's, there's that aspect too, to add to the Southern Gothic because that's another thing about Southern Gothic is that there's always this there, there is always an underlying racial tension somewhere.

And so without Keanu in the film, you wouldn't necessarily have that in the same way.

And so I feel, again, his presence makes it, oh, just takes it to to that level that it needs to be in order for us to call it a Southern Gothic, in my opinion.

So, yeah.

And so I love, I love that about.

Oh, I love that about him in this film.

And one of the cool things that I learned actually when I was working on the book and researching all the different movies that he was in.

So he actually punches Cate Blanchett and, and, and Hilary Swank, like, yeah, so they, they, they've rehearsed and rehearsed and the women were like, OK, it's all right.

Like hit me like.

And and so they practice.

And so they they took those punches.

And when you watch the film with that in mind, it's like, wow.

It honestly, like it always was painful for me to see that.

But I also thought that that it was, was this, you know, they weren't actually doing it.

But then to find out that he's actually hitting them with their permission.

Wow, that to me made those scenes even more horrifying because they're real.

And you know, and Kate talks about how she had bruises and like Hillary as well was like, you know, and and they consented to it.

So like they knew that they were going to have bruises, but that like they had for them as well.

It was that was it was scary.

And again, I brought another level of realism to the story that it wouldn't have had because you can man, I mean, because I always could feel those punches.

And then to find out that like, yeah, I was feeling that because they were real, like those that was that wasn't just, it wasn't just him pretending to almost get there.

It was like he fully punched Cate Blanchett in the stomach and she fell over and it was out of breath because he actually knocked the wind out of her.

Like, wow.

Yeah, yeah.

Dude, that's brave.

I just.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, and for the women in particular, I'm like, dude, like letting a wow.

Yeah.

And that Sam Randy was like, OK, cool, go for it.

Like, never mind insurance, like, you know, all these other things, like, yeah, yeah, go for it, punk.

Just like if everyone's OK with it, just punk, go ahead, punch him, give him all you got.

And he did.

Yeah.

And I just.

Like, and the thought of Keanu punching women is just like.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Wrong.

It's so wrong.

So, so like loving and just like such a defender of like women and people like that.

And just it's wild.

And but I think it really speaks to something that has become in recent years so prevalent and so much a piece of Keanu's personality is like his willingness to just be so real when it comes to doing stunt work.

Right.

And I just watched the documentary Wick is Pain, which is fantastic.

I really recommend it to anybody out there.

But it kind of talks about the kind of history of all four John Wick movies, their development up to like their release and everything.

And you know, how much how integral the stunts are to those movies and how much of it Keanu does.

And he's like, I can't do everything, you know, I he always shout, make sure to shout out the people who are doing all the stunt work that he can do.

But he whenever he can do something, you know, he's kind of like a Harrison Ford where he's like, yeah, I'll, I'll do it, you know, and and something that, you know, he's uncredited.

But Keanu's stunt double from the Matrix works on with Chad Stehanski worked worked on this movie it as stunts who of course he would go on to have a decades long relationship with Keanu.

And he is the director of all four John Wick movies.

So you can really see even in the movie that you wouldn't think of like the stunts as being a huge thing in this movie.

But obviously that thought with Keanu and his collaborators is always there.

And I think this is the second time they've worked together.

You know, obviously he started, he was his stunt double originally on the Matrix.

And then they had this, this collaboration that kept going and going and going until eventually when he was ready to direct his first movie, he was like, all right, I got to get Keanu on here.

You know, I, I doubled for him.

I worked with stunts for him.

So let's, let's get, let's get together.

And so, yeah, it speaks to the collaboration.

And I think this the the collaboration in general on this movie, like everybody really knew what they were doing.

And that's why I'm so surprised that this one has gone.

So like I I, you know, I'm kind of embarrassed I never got to at least see it before talk about it, because even the people who I've seen talk about and like it, like they covered it on blank check, obviously when they did their rainy series.

This this is one that like people are.

Yeah, it's pretty good.

You know, like even the it's defenders.

But I've loved it.

It I, I really, I just, I don't understand how it's flowing under the radar.

Like I really would just a fully stacked cast and the story.

Oh my, I mean, because it's, it's only like an hour and a half long and there is so much that happens in it.

There's, there's the main plot and then there's several subplots, but everything feeds into the main plot, right?

And there's never a sense that things are happening too quickly or that anything is, you know, that anything is rushed and everything by the end.

I mean, it's not like we get a.

Neat ending, but all of those little Easter eggs that they've laid throughout the film, everything comes back in the end.

There's nothing that's left dangling.

And so, you know, to pack that much into such a short amount of time, I mean, between just really the, it, the, the production from from top to bottom, I just find I feel like it's just one of the best movies really.

And that's why it's in my Keanu top five because people are like, how, how do you not have the Matrix in your top five?

Like how, like, how is, how is that the film that's there?

And I'm like, you have to have you seen it?

And of course, they inevitably have not seen it.

And I'm like, you all go and watch it and then let's talk about it afterward because the Matrix is an obvious choice.

Like The Matrix, like there's certain Keanu films that I don't feel like I'm not going to take room in my top five because we've already established that those are brilliant.

They're in the Canon already.

They're that's just they're there and I do have one in my in my top five, which is point break, just because I love that movie so much and I can watch that movie on a loop and never get tired of it.

So like so that's in my top five because I also you have to have one like usual one right, at least in your top five.

So that's my my one in my top five, but like my other ones are.

But my number one Keanu film is my own Private Idaho.

And then my second favorite is Man of Tai Chi, which is Keanu's directorial debut.

I don't know if you've seen that one, but that's another heavily underrated film.

Oh my God.

That's on my list.

I need to watch it's.

So, so good.

He plays, he plays a serial killer in that one, like a dead eyed psychopath.

Yeah, he is terrifying.

Like if you think he's terrifying in The Gift, he takes that to the next level.

Man of Tai Chi Oh my God, he scares me so much.

I love it so.

And he directed it.

He directed it and it has amazing fight scenes.

Like again, the the fight choreography is extraordinary.

It's so good.

So that's my second favorite Keanu movie.

And then my third is The Gift, 4th is point break and then fifth is 47 Ronin.

So there's definitely there's a through line with all of these.

I think like with where it comes to like supernatural elements.

The the the action choreography had in all of them with the with the exception of my own private Idaho, which is a kind of a a road trip drama, indie drama.

I don't know if you've seen that one, but that's it's always.

That's another one that's like really, really high up on my list.

Yeah, that is that movie is also just, it's so, so beautiful and has aged in a really interesting way.

But like all the other 4, you know, I think when you put when you put them all together and you see The Gift is in that, listen, if you've seen them all, it's like, oh, OK, like I get her vibe.

Like that's 'cause there is, there is a vibe.

There is a vibe right there with those four films.

And and it's funny that like that the connection to Point Break and The Gift like has somehow hasn't it's not there because, you know, both both films have these themes about violence against women and these kind of hero characters who manipulate the leading lady.

Because we have Johnny Utah in Point Break doing the same thing to Tyler that Greg Kinnear does to Cate Blanchett's character in the film.

And really fools her, really fools her because, you know, she they're both very smart women and they're both very perceptive.

And somehow they just, they get charmed and it leads to disastrous consequences and near death for both of them.

Right.

So like, it's it's kind of interesting that The Gift is this movie that just kind of skated by everybody when it has so many of the themes that are in piano's really popular and well known films.

And yet somehow this one just escaped attention.

So yeah, yeah, it makes me sad.

It makes me really sad.

Yeah, it's a bummer in like like Keanu, like this is in the period where Keanu kind of gets clowned on it and he's like he like, you know, I was reading 1 review and they're like, oh, sit like saying like Sam Raimi got a performance out of him that like sounds like he's reading in the his lines of the box back of a box of cereal or something and something like that.

Like it's just like, it's just so I feel like at the time, like especially post matrix, he was like this meme and joke like, and he's still very meme today, but it was more like a people were always just like, oh, he's he's this guy who can't really act and stuff.

And like that's the, you know, the, the was the go to line back then.

And he'd obviously been like an action * and he had had, you know, his comedic chops with like Bill and Ted and you know, that he had indie success and stuff with my own private Idaho.

But really he was like blowing up because of the matrix right around this time.

And I remember I was, I was before I switched to English, I was a theatre major for a little while.

I remember being in a theatre class.

This would have been like 2007, 2008.

And the theatre teacher was like, let's have a discussion about why Keanu Reeves is popular because he's obviously not a good actor.

Like the the teacher initiated this discussion and I, it was insane because just flash forward like five years after that, six years after that, 10 years after that, and now it's like people are like, Oh no, no, we were wrong about Keanu.

We disrespected him.

We didn't understand what made him so great.

And like you bring up in your book that that beyond the OR Between Two Ferns bit were like Galifianakis is kind of like hitting him with all the like, oh, ha ha.

Like you're not like a good actor.

And he's like, am I?

Yeah.

Oh, I'm pretending to be interested in this interview.

I'm acting good and you know.

Yeah.

Kind of doing the sad Keanu thing.

And obviously he's had this like really incredible but difficult life at at some point and people are now starting to realize like how how good of an actor he is, especially when he's utilized right.

I think like the WIC movies are a big part of that because they really hit on all of his strengths and none of his weaknesses.

Like they're like those WIC movies are like tailor made for him to the point where, you know, I didn't even realize that he I obviously, I know like a lot of actors will rewrite their dialogue.

They will bring in their own guys to punched up up to make it sound more like like their kind of thing.

But he was like rewriting John Wick movies.

He's he was like rewriting the Bowery Kings lines and stuff like that.

He's like actually like involved and so immersed in in movie making.

I talked about the stunts, but in even in a scripting level.

So in that, that a wider arc of Keanu going from at this time being kind of the butt of the joke to where he is now where like you're like watching the episode of Severance and you're like, is that building Keanu Reeves?

This is amazing.

And people just love him.

Like you say in your book, everyone loves Keanu Reeves.

And and I don't that was not the case when this movie came out.

He was just like dumb action guy And and now it's like he's so beloved.

I would, I would love to hear your thoughts about that kind of Arc that he went on.

It's, it's so interesting.

I mean, I feel like a lot of a lot of social media and the Internet had plays a big part in that because he was the butt of the joke for such a long time and and because there was no way to really like to speak back to that.

And so critics had decided that he's not a good actor.

And so they were looking at every single one of his performances through the lens of Bill and Ted, which makes really no sense because that was only 1.

He was making mostly drama US and indie movies and comedies were not even like a big were not even really a big thing that he was doing.

He was doing like these romance dramas, like, So the fact that they latched on to this idea of him as Bill and Ted as Ted Theodore Logan, and that became the defining factor.

I feel like that was a really big thing that then shaped public perception of him as a bad actor.

Because, you know, if you're reading all the time that like, oh, this guy's no good, then you're going into a movie, having read it in in some magazine that yeah, he's a bad actor.

Then you're gonna go in already thinking like, oh, he's a bad actor.

And then assuming that you're seeing Bill and Ted when you're not, when that's not even what close to what he's offering, right?

Or if there's even a hint, if there's even a hint of it, like a joke of it, then suddenly it's like, oh, the whole performance gets judged on that.

And so I feel like there was a point where where critics just didn't like him.

And I don't know exactly what that was about.

But I somehow feel like the more, the more that he leaned into his ethnic ambiguity, that the less that critics liked him.

They, they were fine with him when he was like white passing, but then the more that he became associated with his Asian and his indigenous sides or that he was playing roles where where his background was more where it could be mixed, right?

And it, and it changes the story.

Once he started getting he started being in those, those positions, the, the critics suddenly just didn't know what to do with him.

Like what do we do with an Asian romantic lead with an indigenous romantic lead, right?

It only works if he's white.

So like, so there was this weird this and again, it's just this kind of weird racist tension that was happening because back at that time, most of the film critics were all white men and there were a few, few white women thrown in there.

And it was interesting, when you look back, that a lot of the white women were the ones who were like, wait a minute.

Like, you know, Janet Maslin wrote about Point Break, about his performance in Point Break.

And she was like, this is one of the most nuanced performances I've seen this year.

And to read that now I'm like, yeah, of course it is.

That movie is brilliant.

He's brilliant in it.

But you read what all the other men wrote and they're like, this guy is dumb as a brick.

And it's like, what movie did you watch exactly?

Because he's what, Like, what?

What, What are you?

What is even happening here?

Like it feels like being gaslighted and, and so I feel like once, once the Internet kind of gave people more of a platform to be able to speak back and actually have their own opinions about things and and talk to each other, we kind of started, I think people started to realize like, wait a minute, like there's, there's other things going on and like, and here here's a space we can make for ourselves where we can talk about how he is a great actor.

So, you know, like this website whoa is not me popped up.

And it's like this Keanu archive.

And like, they also believe that he's a really good actor and they've always believed that.

And so that was one of the reasons they started that archive was because it's like, First off, like his work, we need to have an archive of all these things that these magazines, because we've got to digitize everything because everything, you know, in that transition from digital from paper to digital, right?

We don't want to lose all these articles about Keanu and his his history.

So like, so there was all of that.

And then also like the reason they did it was because they love Keanu as a performer, not as a person, as a performer.

And so, you know, so then all of a sudden we had all these kind of grassroots efforts to like to, to prop up Keanu's work for what it is and to see it in a different light and to to counter that narrative, right?

And then, you know, Keanu went through tragedies at right when social media was starting.

So, you know, the the the baby, losing the baby and then losing his partner.

And so that, you know, that happened in the media, right?

Like that happened in a time when it's like it wasn't something that we just read in the newspaper.

It was something that was like online.

And then it was the repercussions of that were there and and sad Keanu meme.

You know, that happened.

That was shortly after that, right?

And so it's like we had a context for why.

And he says that he was just eating the sand, which and he was very focused.

But like, we know that he was going through tragedies in that time in his life.

And it was a really, really difficult time in his life.

And he was making, he was working constantly because just to avoid, I mean, really because that's what a lot of us do when we're in the middle of something.

And so you throw yourself into something else.

And so I think the awareness of him as a human being, not only that's when the awareness came through that like, Oh my gosh, we've been so mean to this guy and look what he's been going through.

And he's still nice.

Like, wow, like that's pretty cool.

And so then we had the switch because we could see it happen in almost in real time, right?

And so it became like we're punching down now, like we're punching down on this guy.

Why have we been doing this?

And what's been motivating it?

Because I mean, in my book, I, I, one of the reasons I say is, is really that there's, there's kind of some racial component to this.

And, but I feel like this there was, it was so easy to pick on him.

And then suddenly it was like all these good deeds that he's doing, all that stuff started to be more, you know, easily accessible to people because before the Internet, we didn't know that he would like on his birthday and when he was living in New York, have a cake and just kind of walk around and if someone recognizing me to be like, oh, it's my birthday, have a piece of cake.

That was the thing that he did for for a while.

It was so cute.

And and, you know, he used to ride the subway and like, people would talk to him and, you know, so all these things that would happen like before social media, all of a sudden it's like, Oh my gosh, he's just such a nice guy.

Nobody knew that he was just this nice guy.

And so, yeah.

So I feel like, I feel like there's part of that, that social media actually was one of the things that was like his part of his redemption arc kind of brought that into focus more and also just gave more of a platform for us to find out all these things that he does on a daily basis that are just very kind things that he doesn't make a big deal out of, right?

Like Dolly Parton does.

She's the same like she's constantly doing lovely things for people and she's not trying to, she's not trying to advertise it, but because of social media, these things all get out now.

And, and so, yeah, so I feel like there's that moment in like somewhere around 2003, 2004 ish where it was like, wow, we're not going to be mean to Keanu anymore.

And, and, and somewhere in there was the switch that like, oh, wait, maybe he's actually not as some people got this memo that like, oh, maybe he's not so bad an actor.

Maybe he's actually a good actor.

But then there's still the other people who are like, no, I like him as a person and not as an actor and everything.

I mean, I tried with this book.

Like this book was really my response to those people who are like, I like him as a person, not as an actor.

And I'm like, this book is for them.

My book is for them to be like, no, here's all the ways he is an amazing actor.

Please go back and watch these films again, thinking about some of these things I'm mentioning here because he's brilliant.

He is an extraordinary performer.

And The Gift is one of these examples of wow, the way the number of ways that he broke every expectation for the kind of film that you would do after you just made a blockbuster.

You just over like almost overnight went turned into the action star, right?

Like one of the definitive action stars.

Like now you're just like this 30 something guy and you're like up there with Tom Cruise, who's been doing this for years, right?

Like all of a sudden, and then you go and make this this little indie Southern gothic horror film, right?

Like who does that?

Yeah, it's crazy because yeah, yeah.

There's like so many films that come out in the wake of the Matrix like that are like really riffing on it, you know, in one way or another.

And he goes a completely different direction.

But, you know, to speak on, you know, his his revival.

You know, when I was reading your book, something it it something really clicked for me is that I think that the way like nostalgia works for people.

And I talked about this a little bit in my episode a little bit ago on Flash Gordon, talking about how that movie, he has really been reclaimed.

That movie was just seen as a joke for so long, in the same way that I think Keanu's Reeves by a lot of people, his career was seen as like a joke.

And then over the years, you know, people like Seth MacFarlane are like, wow, this is like one of my favorite movies.

And he puts it in the tent.

And like you said, there's so many examples of Keanu as a person, but also Keanu's performances and just Keanu movies that get referenced in later stuff.

Obviously one of the first ones that really leans into that is Hot Fuzz.

You know, Edgar Wright obviously is a fan of all those kind of like 90s action movies.

And there's so there's so much point breaking Hot Fuzz.

But then you get like a million and there's like the surface level matrix things where it's like the air for like I think like 10 years.

There was just like all the bullet time memes.

But there's also just like stuff that really goes a lot more into it.

Like, you know, you talk about it just can't comes up coming out like right after John Wick.

But the film Keanu, which is, you know, not really about him, but he is heavily, heavily referenced in it and eventually agree.

And he did agree to do a cameo on that.

So obviously Key and Peele are like watching like the Matrix, They're big fans.

So these people who are watching his movies in their early career are becoming fans of his.

Then they become people who are making movies and they have this love for Keanu that they put into the movies.

And then everyone else is seeing it like, Oh, yeah, quite break.

He was pretty cool on that.

You know, I would also fire my gun in the air and yell out when my best friend runs away, you know, like it, it's it makes it so much more relatable and, and, and you and you really, you really can be like, OK.

Like he is.

His career is getting reclaimed in the major way, I think, because of all of those films.

You have so many good examples in your book of that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And because it's.

He has such an exceptional catalog of movies.

I mean, but it's when I was writing, there were only 78.

So now we're up to like, I've already lost count where I think we're like at 8083 now with wicked pain.

So, you know, so the book is already how it just came out and it's already so out of date.

But yeah, but he the man is, is kind of a machine.

Like he, he works.

He's been so, so prolific.

And so there have been so many opportunities for people to go back and look at what he's done and the work is there.

Like there are very few films that he's been in where he where the performance is not like fully up to par.

And there, and there's always been specific reasons with the production for why that happened.

Like, for example, the watcher, that was the movie that he was basically kind of he was coerced into making his his ex friend had like forged his signature on the contract.

And then yeah.

And then instead of going into a whole litigation thing, he just decided like, you know what?

I'm just I'm going to make the movie, but like, I'm not going to be there.

And it's a terrible movie.

I mean, everyone phoned that performance in because they all knew that he didn't want to be there.

Like it he didn't agree to be in that movie.

So but what what would you do?

Right.

So just it's it's not a good movie.

And he even admits in interviews, like, that's my worst film.

Like I was not supposed to be there.

I didn't want to be there and so I did not try.

I just, I did what I needed to do to get out of it and get out as quickly as possible.

And, and then there's another film that got really bogged down in the studio system called Exposed and, and it was supposed to be a whole different story.

And once Keanu got involved, the, the, the script got out of hand and it turned into this whole police procedural.

And, and that's another one where it's like it, it just, it's not what it was supposed to be.

And you can tell that something is off with it.

It's just, it's, it's odd.

So, you know, so there's, there's a couple examples in his movies where like things were not going well and he's not doing great on screen because like this is not, none of that is supposed to be how it was.

But in terms of like the rest of the like 77 in films, what like at least the ones that were discussed in my book, all the rest of those, like that's a lot of to use the parlance of our times, like that's a lot of content, right?

Like, like he has put out so much and there is a lot to study in those performances.

And especially like his indie films, his he makes some really, really interesting choices.

And I think one of the one of my favorite things that I learned about him when I was researching my book is that he apparently has at at any given time, a stack of like 100 scripts on his desk and he reads them all.

Yeah, apparently he reads them all.

So he so his agent, he's not getting cherry picked scripts like he's not, it's not like, oh, we think here's his agent being like, oh, we think this is good for your next movie.

No, no, no, he gets all of them.

So he has this stock that just it and apparently just stays that this big stock because he finishes 1 and if he likes it, then it goes into the the maybe pile.

If he doesn't like it, it just goes away, right.

And then another script comes and replaces it and he, you know, so he's just constantly, he reads everything and then he chooses which movies he's going to be.

And when you think about like his career, for example, after the Matrix since then, all having these stacks of scripts on his desk, then think about all these movies that he's been in and consider Keanu deciding he's going to make that film, right.

And to me, when you when you watch, especially if you're going to watch those films for the first time, like I think that's a really interesting game to play with yourself.

Hey, like Keanu chose this out of 100 scripts that were on his desk.

What is this about this role that he like?

What is he showing me here?

What did he why did he want to be in this?

What was it about this character?

What was it about this story?

Why, you know, why is he here?

And you see really beautiful things come from that.

So even the really terrifying roles that he's taken on where because there's a lot of darkness in his catalog as well, he he chose those by hand himself.

And I think there's something really beautiful about that his the creative choices that he's made and trying to puzzle out what was it that drew him to this?

And so, you know, in my book, I proposed a whole theory and broken things down into all these different themes.

And one day, if I ever get to interview him, that's one of the things I really want to ask is like, hey, like in, you know, here's how I broke down your work.

I'm curious, like when you were making all these films that have these similar themes, like what was your thought process?

Like what drew you to, you know, what drew you to make the Neon Demon?

What drew you to make To the Bone, like 2 completely different.

You would never imagine that the same actor would be in those two films.

Really.

Most I would imagine that you know, have you seen the Neon Demon?

I haven't I I I love drive, so I've been wanting to watch it for a while and I love it's it's Elle Fanning in that right yeah, OK, I'm a huge fan of hers so it's.

My goodness.

Another one I keep saying this I know, but it's another one that's on my to watch list.

It's so rough.

So Keanu in that film plays a pedophile motel owner who is praying on these teenage girls, these runaways who are coming to LA to try and be famous.

And you know, so there's like, like he's involved with the sexual assault.

Like you see it on screen.

Oh my God, I threw up.

Like I literally the first time I saw it, nobody warned me.

And I literally I didn't make it to the bathroom time.

I threw up like I, it was, I had Oh my God, it Oh my God, it physically hurts me thinking about that film.

And I'm like, what is Keanu doing in this?

Like, Oh my God, how is this like, how is this my Keanu?

How is this our Keanu in the playing that role?

Like, like so upset, but like, he, he'd go all in, man.

He goes all in on this role and I'm like, dude, like to have the opportunity to play that level of evil.

Like, yeah, OK, cool.

I guess.

Like if I was a performer and I was given a script like that, I'd be like, fuck yeah, let's go.

Like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm not.

Am I allowed?

No, no, we can we can say as many fucks as we want on this show.

We got that little E out there on the app I.

Forgot to ask earlier, but yeah, but seriously, like, you know, because that's what I imagined, like Keanu seeing that script and being like, Oh my God.

I like, I I get to do what on screen?

Like, wow.

Like, Oh my God.

Because I'm not going to spoil it for you because it's, it's, it's so the visuals are just, I mean, wow, it's, it's and it's so beautifully shot that like you're, it's a very God.

It's such a disturbing movie.

But like, you know, Keanu chose that role.

Yeah, Yeah.

Out of 100, out of 100 other roles he could have chosen.

And I'm like, wow.

OK, so instead of being upset, like let's think, what is it that's like his creative process is fascinating.

And that's really something that I was trying to dive into as I wrote the book was like trying to figure out what are the threads here?

You know, what, what's what's this tapestry that he's weaving and, and how is he picking these things?

And like, what are the patterns that I'm noticing?

And he loves the dark stuff, like wow, he does, but he also loves the really funny, silly stuff.

I just don't know any other actor, like maybe except Pedro Pascal.

I feel like he's maybe a a like a someone who is kind of in the same vein as Keanu.

Plus with his, he's also got this lovely persona and his support of his transistor is so, so beautiful.

You know what I mean?

Like he's, he's kind of he's he's in my eyes kind of growing in like the Keanu, the Keanu kind of pantheon.

I.

Feel like there's yeah, the same vibes.

Like I see that now.

Yeah, that.

Makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And also with the the roles that Pedro Pascal takes, like he's also really drawn to some dark stuff and, and, and, and he's finding this interesting balance between like this really dark stuff and really light stuff and then everything in between.

And you just don't see that kind of range with a lot of actors.

Like I feel they're all, you know, like, like people like Tom Cruise, so talented, but like he's just now chosen this one thing and that's all he does, right?

Like, same with Dwayne, Dwayne the Rock Johnson, like so talented, but like, he's just chosen this one kind of role he's going to play and like really?

Surprised he's going to be in that like a 24 biopic.

I was like, this is a very different vein for Dwayne Johnson, you know?

Yeah, I'm, I'm interested to see what he does and, and another actor who I, I feel like kind of could be part of the Keanu pantheon is Dave Batista.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

That guy, he is, wow, he's in Tai.

He also makes some really interesting creative choices.

And again, I don't know how many different things are getting shown.

So knowing that Keanu sees everything and then chooses, these are the projects that he chooses.

Like I just love knowing that about him now because it just, it changes the way that I, I engage with his work, knowing that he that was what he picked out of 100 things.

And so something there is something so special there.

There was someone that he wanted to work with.

There was some, there was some theme that brought him to that project.

And, and so I'm curious to hear like how many scripts does Pedro Pascal see, right?

Like, you know, Dave Bautista, like how many is he seeing?

And then he's choosing these things from them.

So, so, yeah.

So this is now a new question that I asked of all the creative people, like how, what, what, how many projects are they offered?

How many projects do they review before they choose what they're doing?

Because knowing that Keanu does so much legwork to pick his projects again, it just, it elevates everything that he does for me because it's not an accident he's in any of those things, like at all.

He is so carefully curating his films.

So that level of attention to his career is really is really singular, I feel So, yeah.

Yeah.

And it's interesting you, you bring up the, the parallels to Tom Cruise because like on a surface level, it's like there are two of like, kind of like the last movie stars, you know, like they're both big action guys with these big action franchises, you know, Mission Impossible and John Wick, you know, they're very known for like pushing the boundaries with stunts and stuff.

But, and Cruz early in his career, you know, he would take risks and stuff like he would be in Magnolia or he would be in like Eyes Wide Shut.

And I think, you know, when he didn't get the recognition that he wanted, when people started finding out things about his personal life that were not great, you know, all the stuff like involved in like all the Scientology stuff, like people like, and then he just was like, OK, I'm the action movies guy, you know, whereas Keanu was like he's and even though I know like he's going to maybe be in a raw to movie and stuff, but it's never, he's never going to push the boundaries.

I feel like where like Reeves would do with like a neon demon, like you were saying with something like this, where I was like going to this, I was like, I cannot believe that he is playing a wife beater.

Like that is such a different vibe that I'm used to.

And yeah, I'm just like, that's really interesting that he would take something like this on and he would choose to be, like you said, he's coming off the Matrix.

He has his choice of probably whatever, like because the way this movie comes out, you know, it's not the next thing that comes out of the Matrix, but it's probably the first thing he shot after the Matrix was really hitting.

If you look at the timelines And he's like, not only is it like not an action movie that's completely different, he's also like playing a pretty supporting role.

He's like, this is like the only time I'm like Keanu Reeves would ever be built under Giovanni Ribisi.

I feel like in a movie, like no disrespect to Giovanni, great actor, but like Keanu Reeves, you know, but so like that kind of speaks to that.

Like this movie, he's great in it, but there it's also a much bigger movie than him.

And because like this is like very much a Cate Blanchett gothic horror with Sam Raimi.

And obviously we talked a ton about Keanu and his his how great he is in this movie.

Is there some other stuff in the movie that like with Kate or with Sam Raimi's direction, with the whole gothic horror of the gothic?

Not horror, but the gothic kind of like a thriller of it that that you wanted to talk about?

Oh, I gosh, I just I Cate Blanchett in this film is just it's one of she's one of my favorite characters of all time in this movie.

Like I think it's again, one of her most underrated performances as well.

Really.

Like we've seen Hilary Swank, we've seen her do what she does in this film and a couple other ones.

But what Cate Blanchett does in this movie is so like, I honestly just occasionally would just forget that I'm watching a movie like this is not I'm not actually there with them right now.

This is a film I'm, you know, I guess her performance is so engrossing and I oh, I just, I'm in awe of her in this film.

I really, I feel like she was at her at the top of her game and the fact that she didn't get any of the flowers for it at all.

I really just it, it really bums me out.

But also, but I also have to say again, Greg Kinnear, I did not see that ending coming.

And I remember the first time I watched it just being I had to pause it for a second because I was like, what the fuck just happened?

Like how did I miss it?

Like how?

And then when you go back and watch it again, you'll start to see he it's so subtle.

His performance is so subtle.

And that's why I've watched that movie 100 times, because every time I watch it, I notice something new in their performances.

Every single one of them.

Giovanni Ribisi's character is another one where the layers, the layers like you can start to see his thought processes like their their acting is so visible on their faces.

And that silent technique is the thing that Keanu, I feel like is really one of his signature.

It's one of his signature moves.

And for once in in the gift, like he's talking a lot.

So it's and it's everyone else is doing all of this silent technique with their faces.

And I swear like this is one of those movies where I rewatch it and rewatch it, but I actually watch it because I'm like you just you see so much happening on their faces.

And so like there's other films like when I watch point break a million times, like I'm not necessarily like sitting and focusing on it.

You know, I'm like, maybe I'm folding my laundry, I'm doing other things and it's like on in the background.

The music is so good.

Like you know that I like I'm doing the dialogue along with it.

But like when I watch the gift, I'm watching the gift.

I'm not on my phone, I'm not taking notes.

I'm not, I am focused because I'm like, what am I going to notice this time that I didn't notice the other 100 times that I've seen this movie because there's always something.

And so, yeah, I highly recommend for folks checking this movie out to watch it more than once because really, like, you will start to see things.

And I feel like that's another reason why I love it so much, because the the more that you know, you just scratch the surface of the performances, like the the more that you watch it and the more you see how they have bodied these characters.

There is not a moment in that movie where anybody is out of character.

Sometimes, you know, it, it happens.

It just it happens in films like people, you know, just like someone who's in the background, someone, someone around, there's something that draws you out of the story.

There's not a moment in this film where that happens.

I'm like, that's pretty special too.

I feel like that's another reason I've I've watched it so much because it it's just perfect in a way.

Like it's really one of these rare films that I feel has just nailed it on all of the levels.

And yeah.

And then just the fact that, like, God, you have Sam Raimi.

This is distracted by Sam Raimi.

Like how have the Sam Raimi stands not done like a revival of it?

That's it just feels like an oversight.

It feels like somehow that there's this little invisibility cloak around it and people are just not noticing it because it's it.

Again, criminally underrated.

Not just underrated, criminally.

Yeah, and and I, I agree with all that.

And yeah, I like I said, huge, huge Cate Blanchett fan.

So obviously this is, you know, after she gets like all of that praise for Elizabeth, you know, Lord of the Rings is about to come out.

So she's obviously shot that.

So like she's really kind of like having a big, those are kind of, I feel like 2 of the defining moments with her starting her career is her getting that Academy Award recognition for Elizabeth and then getting her blockbuster recognition for Lord of the Rings, which are obviously very different roles.

She's an incredibly talented, versatile actress.

And this is very different from either of those she's playing like this, this person who is just kind of gas lit and not believed throughout the whole movie.

And just like you said, with all the stuff about, you know, people of, you know, non white people being kind of like looked down on or not believed in the South.

And I think you see a lot of that with her being just a single mother, you know, a single mother who's like a fortune teller.

And they're like, even people who are like, quote, UN quote, good, helpful people.

Like JK Simmons is just like, I don't believe any of this shit.

You know, like he's just like, very.

They're very dismissive of her.

And, you know, the way she's just like, she's like, yeah, my husband is dead.

I'm out here trying to, like, help other battered women and people who are like Giovanni Ribisi, who's obviously been abused.

And she's, like, doing her best for him.

And but she's just so overwhelmed by the crushing way the world.

And she's like, she's going out of her way to, like, help this person who was honestly kind of shitty to her.

It was not a good person.

But she's, like, trying to find justice for this murdered woman.

And she's out here, like, while trying to support her kids any way she can.

And she's lived through so much tragedy.

Like her performance is so phenomenal because you believe it.

And then she, you know, she tried.

She's like, then she's getting stalked and threats are made against her and her children.

She's like doing her best to protect them.

But like she's going with this huge threatening man that she goes to the cops and the cops are basically like, hey, fuck you.

You know, like the cops are not going to help you.

Which like, that's real, you know, like, especially in the, like, it's real today in like, like America, but it's also very, very real in the South in like, you know, the early cuts.

Yep, cops are not going to, they're to protect you.

So I, I think that's a phenomenal performance.

Like you say, the raininess of this, like, how is this not been?

Cuz rainy fans, they love their deep cuts, right.

So I'm just like, where, when are you guys going to like start championing this one?

Because I I talk a lot about how much I love when you take one kind of film, one genre, and then you put other genre elements onto it, like a movie that had covered way back the day was as above.

So blow, which is like an Indiana Jones style adventure movie, but it's also like a found footage horror footage.

Yes, that's.

My favorite.

I love it, Yeah.

And and this one, as I alluded to earlier, is a kind of by the numbers, like it's a Southern murder mystery, you know, like it's like, you know, where you could have it.

It's so Jean Grisham or even like if you could see like this being like if you take out the supernatural stuff, this could be a Knives Out movie, honestly, like it could be like Daniel Craig just being like, well, I'm here to solve the Moto Katie Holmes.

You know, like you, you put that layer of the supernatural.

Sam Raimi and it's it's very much in his style too, where there's like the quick zooms and like like here's something like a spooky thing that will just like kind of like, and some it'll be like a close up and somebody'd eyes will like pop wide open like that.

I feel like other than Bruce Campbell, I think this has like all of the hallmarks of the Sam Raimi movie.

And because when when you're combining these genres, you can do it just to do it right.

You can be like, hey, this is something that I think is an interesting genre.

This is an interesting genre and smash them together and it won't work.

But when you do it in a thoughtful way that is unexpected, but it really works.

Like I think with this movie really works.

You're taking what is great about both of these genres and what they address.

Like, OK, you know, a lot of these Southern movies are about like, people who are often look down upon, like these Southern murder movies are taking movies that are like, this person is overlooked in this society.

How to address that?

And you're taking something like, here's a movie about a fortune teller who sees dead people.

You know, she's clairvoyant.

This is very spooky.

They don't seem like they should fit, but it's such a perfect marriage.

It really is.

And he just so leans into that Southern Gothic feel with this film.

And it, it's really, I, I just try to understand why it's still not getting the love that it deserves.

Because it, it's aged really well.

You know, that's the other thing.

It has aged really well because again, he used practical special effects.

So we don't have any of the CGI nonsense that makes things that has made a lot of movies not age well.

Like some of those early 2000 movies like Money Returns, Rough.

Seriously, really, they, they're just, they're not, they're not doing well and they really, they have to fully remaster them because the, those digital effects are just not, they're not doing well over time.

But like Sam Raimi is one of the masters of the practical effect, right?

So, you know, he uses all of that stuff.

And so, you know, I feel like that that has also just added to the, the artistry of the film and how, and how well it, it has stood up over time.

And it's, it's just, it's, it's just bizarre to me.

I really try to figure out by that is a movie that has escaped.

So it, it should have had so much critical attention as well, because really the acting in it.

But then it's a horror movie, right?

It's a, it's a so it, it has those, it has enough of those elements that then it's not going to get taken seriously by awards bodies.

And it's directed by Sam Raimi.

So like then it's, that's also going to make sure that it's not getting taken seriously by awards bodies, right 'cause like, oh, it's the guy from Evil dead.

Well, I mean, so there's again, I feel like there's a lot of bias against horror genre, but then where are all the horror fans with this film?

Because this is such a it's like, it's like a secret Stan Raimi movie, right?

It's like discovering that your favorite director made this like quirky southern gothic thriller slash drama.

It's everything, right?

It's part family drama, it's part horror movie, It's part courtroom, courtroom proceeding, like legal procedural, like it's, it's all of these elements.

And it's this director who's like known for this for this whole other genres, right?

And how is that?

How does that not make this kind of like the gem in the collection instead of the, the like ignored one?

Like it's like the moonstone or the Opal like over there, Like nobody cares about it even though it's more valuable than and it's more rare than all the rest of them, right?

Like all these other glittering jewels and you've got this Opal over there and like that's the really valuable one, but no one wants to pay attention to it because everything else over here is so sparkly.

I don't know.

No, I completely agree because like this movie, there's sometimes when Sam Raimi has made a movie that's like not really a Sam Raimi movie.

Like he's been like, OK, I'll make Oz the great and powerful or I'll make for the love of the game.

Like those movies, they're they feel like OK, like this is him kind of maybe doing this for stepping in as a favor, like just doing this as a gig because he's he is like a working director, but he did this, this so much feels like his movie, you know, like this is 100% is his thing.

It it really does.

And, and I love that all of the people who were like all the stars, they all treated it as seriously as it is, right, Because you could have really had someone coming in with a really hokey accent or you know, that there could have been that knives out that, that, that almost that satire aspect coming in or, or even a dark comedy aspect coming in.

Because we also know that Sam Raimi is really big on dark comedies.

So like there really could have, there could have been a lot more of that, like just with one character a little bit off, could have changed the whole, you know, could have changed the whole vibe of the thing.

And it's serious.

It's it's a serious film throughout.

And but I also that also feels very intentional.

Like it feels like Sam Raimi was like, I'm just want to make one serious horror movie.

And like I see it like a horror drama.

Like I just wanted to be, I feel like it.

I wonder how inspired he was by Eve's Bayou.

And that's always been something that I've been curious about with him.

Like because there's a lot of parallels between that film.

I don't know if you've seen it, but it's not, it's, it's not technically, it's not technically a horror movie, but it's over the years has been kind of reclassified as black horror and it's directed by Cassie Lemons and it's all black cast and it takes place in, oh, Mississippi, I want to say, or it could, it could actually even be Louisiana.

I'm not sure.

But it's, there's all these elements of the supernatural that are, are, are happening in this, this very sweeping family drama in the South taking place in the 60s.

And, and it's a beautiful film.

And I feel like there's a lot in common with the gift.

And so I've but I've googled and I, he's never really mentioned anything about it.

So I don't know.

So again, if I like, ever have a chance to chat with him, I'm going to be like, hey, dude, like, quick question about the gift.

Like, what's your stance on Eve's Bayou?

Like, was, was that part of your process?

Because like, the parallels are there.

And I feel like it's a good double feature actually to either watch one or the other.

You know, it doesn't matter which order you watch them in.

I feel like they they each contribute to each other.

But yeah, it's it's just, it's wild to me that this movie doesn't.

It's the 25th anniversary and I've been waiting to see like, interviews with Sam Raimi and with all the cast because again, the cast is stacked.

Like why isn't nobody talking about this?

Yeah, no.

Absolutely nobody, nobody, nobody cares.

It's it's a shame too.

I'm glad.

That's why I love doing this show is because I want to shine a light on these movies that otherwise would not get talked about as much.

But yeah.

So with that said, is there any last thoughts you want to leave about the The gift or Keanu's performance in it?

Oh, wow, that's such a big question.

Yeah, I guess trigger warnings for people because it is very, it is very upsetting.

And I think I think for folks who really don't like Keanu as an actor, I think that they this is a kind of movie of his that they need to watch because he is acting in this film.

Like he's brutal and he's so violent and he's so gross.

His character is so just, he's nasty.

Like the things he says and the way he says things is just like, oh, like, why is that coming out of piano's beautiful house?

Like no.

I did not need to.

I was like, hey, just heard Keanu, you say the N word.

This is that's something I never thought I would experience.

Like, why?

Like, Oh my God, like, why is this happening to us?

Like, you know, and I mean, he's acting like he is acting and he's acting really well.

It's like, enough to make you super uncomfortable.

And so, yeah.

So kind of like for people who I think really for people who think that Kian is not a good actor, I this is a film.

I this probably why this is in one of my top five too, just like he is.

So not anything any way you've ever seen him before and he's completely not himself.

And if you want to make the case that he's a bad actor, I'm like, just watch this film and like, let's talk about it afterward.

Because how could you say that?

Because it's he's very convincing.

He's too convincing, honestly, as that as this as this domestic abuser.

And so I just which is what makes it one of my favorite performances of his.

Like defies all expectations and brilliant.

It's a really it's a brilliant performance among so many other brilliant performances.

I mean, everyone in this film.

Oh, God, to be to have been on that set, like I really.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

Would have been amazing to see all of them in action.

Absolutely.

And I think the scene that that really, you know, because he's obviously just being like a despicable, horrible person throughout the film.

But the scene that like stuck out the most for me in terms of his acting is when he it becomes a courtroom drama and he's like on the stand.

And he has this whole Pete where he's just like, yeah, like I admit, like I hit these women.

I like, I've done all these terrible things.

Like I'm not a good husband.

I'm not a good.

And like you can like he's really acting in there because you can tell like this is a character who is a bad person who is coming to grips of the fact that he's a terrible person and is going to be punished for it, not because of anything he did, but because basically the life that he's lived is is catching up with him.

And now he's, you know, being essentially set up.

But this the consequences are coming for me.

He's just coming to grips with like I am not good, you know, and he still has that horrible emotional opera out of that, but just him on the stand.

And it's it's so in contrast with anything else he's been doing with the movie, but still feels in line with this character.

So I I thought that was was really incredible.

And you know, my last question here to to wrap up, you know, talking about his performance in this, you mentioned your five favorite Keanu movies, but do you have a number one performance, not necessarily of the movie, but just him in the movie?

What's your favorite Keanu role?

I'm going to say my own private Idaho.

OK, all right, all right.

Yeah, yeah, I'm going to say that because again, he's playing it's a very he's playing the sociopathic, you know, manipulative cold hearted person is his character is honestly quite similar to Donnie Barksdale in the gift.

He's got favor in my own private Idaho.

He's, he's really just, gosh, he, he's so conniving and he, the way that he, he ingratiates himself with all of these people.

He's wealthy and he ingratiates himself with all these unhoused people.

And, and he gives everyone the impression that like when he finally returns home to his mayor's, you know, his dad is the mayor.

And when he finally returns home to his mansion, he's going to be, you know, everyone's going to be coming with him.

All these poor sex workers who have been his essential, his his St.

family, we're all going to come with him.

And but then he's doing these besides to the camera where he's like, I have never, none of these people are coming with me.

Like, and the way that and the way his these switches that he makes it, it just it foreshadows a lot of what he does in his career.

And he got no flowers for that performance either.

River Phoenix kind of gets all of the accolades for that movie, and Keanu's performance in it is, again, so powerful and nuanced and layered.

And I see a lot of shades of that in The Gift, which is probably another reason why that's one of my favorite films of his because, yeah, that the tenderness eventually does come out, but it comes out in these ways that are so unexpected, you know, and that that plea that he makes for himself in The Gift on the stand where he's like, yeah, I did all these bad things, but I'm not a killer.

Like he's he's admitting to all these terrible things that he's done to make the case that like, yeah, but I would never go that far, right?

Like, I'm the worst, but I'm not that worst.

And so it's like there's yeah, I, I so I nobody ever asks him about these moments.

And that's another, this is another thing that's like on my list of questions for Mr.

Reeves if I ever get a chance to interview him is to be like, hey, like where did these, where did you get this from?

How did you, what were you pulling on to bring suddenly in these most unexpected moments, this this weird, like vulnerability comes out and you're like, huh.

OK.

And like people say you don't act.

Yeah, it's it's wild.

So, yeah.

So if you haven't seen, if you haven't seen my own Private Idaho, that's oh, man, that movie is incredible.

Yeah.

And it's from 1991.

It's from 1991.

And it's, it's a little bit like a time capsule.

It's it's and his performance in it is, again, is extraordinary.

So.

And it as it is in the gift.

So yeah, I see a lot of a lot of parallels between the two.

Yeah, that's, that's good.

Yeah, that's, that's good.

That's good.

Yeah.

And I'll just, I'll throw out, you know, I, I think my, you know, mine is I, I'm tempted to say Bill and Ted a, a role that he played across multiple decades and is, is so iconic for me because I think he's just like, it's just, you know, that, that lovable side of Keanu that just kind of like, whoa, dude, you know, like it's, it's so good.

I love the bromance and that I love that you know when he's like a, he's like a girl dad into the latest one and stuff like it's it's so good.

Yeah, yeah.

And that like the respect that you see, the respect that he has for like the princesses and he's like, oh, the women, you know, like it's so.

But I I think that I'm tempted to say that one, but I think I really have to.

And this is a very basic answer, but I got to go with John Wick.

I think that that really gets every facet of all the things he does so well.

Like you have that tortured past.

Like, you know, we talked about like he's not just not shy from away from playing people who are bad people.

And John Wick, you know, he's like, I was a bad guy.

Like, I've done terrible things.

I kill.

And he's like no remorse about like killing all these people.

You still like, John is still a likeable person.

But like, he's still like, yeah, I the only really good thing about me was my wife who's who died.

She left me a dog.

They killed my dog.

So now I'm going to murder everyone.

You're like, I get it, dude, go off.

But then he so he he also has like that brings that really sensitive side.

You know when like, see where he's just like holding the dog like.

Oh my God.

Broke people's hearts and and but then he's also just doing the like the bad ass Keanu at the same time where he's doing all his stunts and he's like really pushing the boundaries and like, how can we do this in a more interesting way?

And like, you know, the the thing that like the reason the the trailer popped and it's still, you know, so in gracious with the character was just like, I'm thinking I'm back, you know, and yeah, the way that, you know, spoilers for John Wick 4, but the way that character kind of like has that perfect ending, you know, like it's, it's so it's so good.

I I can't.

That was when I was really like this guy.

He's always an actor that I liked more than most people.

But then when I started watching the WIC movies is like there's a special sauce that he just brings and it's just all the, all the ingredients are right in there for that one.

So that that's one of my that's my all time favorite, I think.

I I and I agree with you and I think that's why I like to pick movies from early in his career because he's always had that sauce like he's he has always had it and pointing people to my own private Idaho.

I as a drama there all of those elements.

You can see where John Wick came from in his role as Scott Favor.

Like you can.

I just, I feel like, yeah, looking at his early stuff and plus his early stuff is so, again, criminally underrated.

So, and his, his work and his his performances in them are so don't talk about them enough.

And so, yeah, so I think, I think that's another reason I, I, I gravitate toward picking those films whenever people ask me questions about what my favourites are, because I really, I, he's been doing this for 40 years, man.

Like the man is, he's a he's brilliant, he's brilliant and he's been brilliant since the start.

So yeah, then that's, that's one of the biggest cases that I make in my book is that he's been thoughtful since the beginning and brilliant since the beginning.

So yeah, yeah.

And yeah.

The and John Wick and the John Wick is really, yeah.

It's the distillation.

It's the distillation of all of these decades of brilliance.

And it's just excited to see where he goes, where he goes from here.

He's going to be, I'm going to actually be seeing him on Broadway in September.

Yes.

So right.

About when this episode's coming out, yeah.

Yeah, so that's going to be pretty cool.

And yeah, Oh my God, it's been a dream.

I I never got to see him play Hamlet.

So this is he's it's not Shakespeare, it's Beckett.

But like close enough and not.

Too shabby.

Dude, it's Beckett.

So I mean, I'm a theater nerd.

So like this, there's the Canon, right?

And so he's at least getting, he's doing someone in the Canon and yeah, I'm really looking forward to that.

And he's with Alex Winter in that so.

Oh wow, okay, all right, that's really cool.

Bill and Ted do Broadway.

Oh my God.

Oh my God, that's awesome.

That's awesome.

That's really cool.

It's super cool.

Well, I'm, I'm excited for you.

That sounds really great.

But yeah, this is this has been such a blast, you know?

Thank you.

For so much fun.

Bringing this one to my attention.

Like I said, you know, I, I, I love this movie and of course I, I love your book.

Where can people find it and and read your stuff?

Well, so the book it's it came out through Chicago Review Press.

So it will be anywhere that you get books like your local brick and mortar store or Costco, like wherever.

And yeah.

And if they don't have a copy of it, you can always like, you know, go and ask them to order one, which is always, always lovely to support your local, your local independent bookstore.

And then, yeah, it's available online through all of the, you know, just wherever you feel comfortable.

Like I know at Amazon now is a lot of people are boycotting it, but it's available through all the, all the different places.

So, yeah.

And and then my website issisian.org, so you can see what my upcoming events are on there and I have an announcements page.

And hopefully you should have another book coming out in the next couple of years.

I don't know, they're working on it so.

Very nice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This was so much fun.

And if anybody out there is listening to the first time because they're, you know, a fan of your book or anything else you've done and you want to hear some more nice stuff, you know, obviously there's a whole back catalog over like 165 episodes.

You know, by the time this is out, I will have done my Comic Con panel.

So you can check out that panel.

It's on this feed as well as on my YouTube.

So yeah.

So just underratedmoviepodcast.com has links to all of that.

You know, you can also just look up underrated movie podcast on all the social medias, Blue Sky, Instagram, all that stuff where on all those.

And I do have a Patreon as well, patreon.com/underrated movie podcast.

I call it underrated Disc 2 where for one for your $5 you can get a bunch of benefits including at certain levels.

There is a whole bonus podcast that I do that will soon be wrapping up this season where I am doing, it's called The Cross the Second Dimension where I look at films that were originally released in 3D and see if they hold up in 2D.

And then if you are a producer level patron, you can even suggest a film for me to cover once you've been a producer for a certain length of time.

So check all that stuff out.

You can also check out the other podcasts that I do with my buddy Damien called Midnight Film Society, where we talk about more recently released stuff that we've been watching.

So yeah, all that, like I said, underrated movie podcast there.

But one more time, thank you so much for coming on.

This has been a absolute great time.

Oh, thank you for having me.

I I could keep talking about this movie really, I mean, and I could talk about Keanu for hours and hours, but like this, this was such a treat to get to dive deep into the gift.

Such a such a fantastic film.

And I really, I hope that this episode inspires a lot of people, especially the Raimi heads like why?

Like why are?

Why are y'all come on guys like go get the word out, pull it.

Together man like we really we need to do something about this so I'm this has been wonderful.

Thank you so much, Derek, for having me.

Absolutely, absolutely I'll.

Talk to you guys all next time.