[SPEAKER_03]: We are back with another episode of the Kyle Lambs Loan Show, and I am very happy today to have, I believe the first guest I ever had on this show returning, that is Columbia Professor of Neurobiology, Joseph Twiliger, and he was also the man who accompanied Dennis Ramin on his trips to North Korea.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you have great insight to North Korea, your world traveler, great insight to world politics.

[SPEAKER_03]: I got a lot I want to talk to you about today, but first Joe, how are you doing?

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, doing pretty good.

[SPEAKER_02]: Life is, you know, going on.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, Joe, an old acquaintance of yours, Kim Jong-un certainly has been getting some headlines in the past few weeks.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to talk to you about North Korea and his Kim Jong-un's trip to China, the tensions on the Korean Peninsula, Zelensky and his remarks about it's a pity that Trump met with Putin and his work coming to Venezuela last up here.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, [SPEAKER_03]: Let's start off with this first post from Donald Trump.

[SPEAKER_03]: So Kim Jong-un made a trip to China and I love your thoughts about that.

[SPEAKER_03]: But also this Trump says this is North Korea, Kim Jong-un, Russian president, Vladimir Putin, Chinese president, Xi Jinping, Xi Jinping, all conspiring against the United States.

[SPEAKER_03]: So [SPEAKER_03]: Joe, what do you make of Kim's trip to the China?

[SPEAKER_03]: And is this a conspiracy against the United States of America?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's not a conspiracy against the United States of America.

[SPEAKER_02]: The United States of America put sanctions on China, Russia, and North Korea.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so when they can't trade with anyone else easily, they trade with each other.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's obvious, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So if anything, we created this alliance between them and Iran as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: none of them have a particular reason to like each other other than the fact that, you know, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, I think that it's a little bit silly to be looking at it from that perspective.

[SPEAKER_02]: From the North Korean perspective, it's sort of like, well, we weren't allowed to trade with anyone.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, finally, Russia's helping us out with sanctions and with other stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, why wouldn't we want to have a good relationship with them, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, [SPEAKER_03]: You know, Kim goes to China.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's obviously warmed his relationship with Putin.

[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about that the last time you were on that had quite a bit significance, but it did seem that the relationship between Pyongyang and Beijing was a little bit icy over maybe the past five years, or even longer.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, [SPEAKER_03]: Do you think this is a symbol of more ties between North Korea to come, certainly, you know, people kind of forget a lot of the focus with on Russia is in the country's west, but the far east of Russia has borders with North Korea and [SPEAKER_03]: while the U.S.

[SPEAKER_03]: military build up in the Indo-Pacific is purported to be aimed at China.

[SPEAKER_03]: This certainly makes the North Koreans and the Russians a little bit edgy, too.

[SPEAKER_03]: So is this the building blots of more of a trilateral relationship here in East Asia?

[SPEAKER_03]: Or is this just maybe a commemorative thing that Kim was doing to appease she on the 80th anniversary of the end of World War II?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, I think that right now, Korea and Russia are kind of married, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: They made an arrangement, it's been sealed with blood, you know, now that people have died over there.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's the relationship that's most important.

[SPEAKER_02]: For China, of course, they have a border with North Korea.

[SPEAKER_02]: They have a big border with Russia.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they have to try to maintain stable relationships in the region, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So China wants to kind of get along with things.

[SPEAKER_02]: They don't really necessarily like what's happening on their border and they're not the best friends.

[SPEAKER_02]: either Russia or North Korea, but it's a kind of, you have to co-exist with them when you have big borders and they're all kind of, you know, they have a common sort of threat from America, so they're trying to fight against sort of American dominance and create this multiple-world, which would have obviously some benefits for them.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think China is that welded to close relationships with either.

[SPEAKER_02]: Russia or North Korea, it's more about keeping it going, keeping a stable relationship and trying to, you know, get through all of this and try to maintain some sort of peace and stability in the region, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: And as the North Korea, they're more interested right now in Russia because they've invested heavily, they've invested human lives, they've invested a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they're getting a lot back for it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was a good investment by the North Koreans to get [SPEAKER_02]: And it's also important to remember that they stayed in Russia.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the North Korean troops were fighting the Ukrainians after they in the area where they invaded Russia.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think this huge symbol is in that saying that if there's a war in Korea, Russia is not going to go across the DMZ into South Korea, they're also going to stop at the internationally recognized borders, and their only goal is sort of mutual defense as they had in their signed agreement.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think a lot of these things are being blown out of proportion [SPEAKER_02]: by the West and by South Korea is something to be afraid of.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're really, they're trying to say, look, you know, we helped Russia, Russia's going to help us, but we're not helping them with their war outside of the internationally recognized territory of Russia.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, North Korea, I think if you ask kind of a lot of Americans about North Korean, general, it's kind of the hermit kingdom label really stuck there and they have this idea that, you know, North Korea as well as facing international UN sanctions and a lot of American sanctions and pressure is also somewhat self-isolated.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now at this big international event, you have leader in the Indian Prime Minister Modi as well as leaders from about 20 other nations.

[SPEAKER_03]: Do you see any signs that maybe Kim is not only looking to have a military pat in a relationship with Russia, but also maybe open its economy up or at least try to develop more international ties beyond just its immediate neighbors Russia and China.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think North Korea has always been interested in having economic relationships with countries outside the region.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's that the international community has made that impossible with the sanctions that are put on.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the UN sanctions are much more extreme than the US sanctions because they're almost impossible to remove because somehow they manage to set them in perpetuity until they're removed.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's [SPEAKER_02]: It's a very difficult situation and I think that North Korea would very much like to be able to trade with a lot of different countries.

[SPEAKER_02]: Any country willing to trade with them is just that they're not allowed to by the system because of the nuclear tests and then we action to it and here's a go.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think maybe, you know, Kim Jong-un starting to go out to some of these events.

[SPEAKER_02]: is an indication that they're getting past COVID and they're trying to re-engage on a larger level.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now that they've shown that they're not a minor player, but they're actually kind of important after what they contributed to Russia's defense in the area around Ukraine.

[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_03]: So Joe, before we kind of move on to what's happening on the Korean Peninsula, I know you're around the world.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know a lot of people internationally, and there was also an event at, I believe this was the Shanghai Cooperation Organization.

[SPEAKER_03]: This was like the sister event to the actual military parade in the celebration, and most attended that with Koon and she.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that drew a big reaction from Donald Trump.

[SPEAKER_03]: Saying, looks like we've lost India to the deepest darkest China.

[SPEAKER_03]: May they have a long and prosperous future together.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so just, I guess from your observation, you'll talk about what you think USGL politics and world war and stuff like that too.

[SPEAKER_03]: But just your observations from traveling around the world.

[SPEAKER_03]: is there now maybe a large enough block of countries that really are happy with doing business outside of the U.S.

[SPEAKER_03]: World Order, and we're kind of seeing the end, at least, of the U.S.

[SPEAKER_03]: had gemony when it comes to, you know, we are able to brutalize and empower the North Koreans and the Syrians and the Venezuelans and the Cubans with our embargoed embargoes with our [SPEAKER_03]: That seems to be increasingly fading.

[SPEAKER_03]: Is that your senses you travel the world are?

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe is this just a little bit of show from some world leaders at a big Chinese event?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, we can see that North Korea, for example, the sanctions are nowhere near what they were before because of Russia, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because they made this deal, and that's opening the doors, they're starting to get energy and other stuff and the economy's taking off a little bit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Iran is also pretty isolated from a lot of the effects of sanctions.

[SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't mean they don't want the sanctions removed because of course they do because everybody would like to trade with the West if they can, right, that's where the money is, but yes, there are most of the world is still trading with Russia for example, right, it's only [SPEAKER_02]: Western Europe, US, South Korea, Japan, Australia, which in the US media is referred to as the whole world.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's actually really involved in the sanctions on Russia, for example.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that, yes, it's obvious that our sanctions are less powerful than they used to be, and that's partially because if you sanction everyone, you sanction no one.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that creates these other trading box.

[SPEAKER_02]: to exert power through sanctions is really waning severely.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, and I think that's a really brilliant line that I think I might steal for myself, Joe, that if you sanction everyone, you sanction no one, because that's certainly, seems to be the effect that they're having right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now, next up, I want to ask you, really about the developments on the [SPEAKER_03]: Kim Yobong, the sister of South Korean Supreme Leader Kim Jong-un, when she said that North Korea was no longer interesting, engaging in West South Korea, and, you know, she had multiple reasons for this some South Korean actions, but I think the most important point she made in that statement was that South Korea is subservient to the United States.

[SPEAKER_03]: So whatever deal we were even to try to make with the South Koreans, [SPEAKER_03]: Unless it has Washington's approval, it's rather meaningless.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then she came out and said, we are willing to talk with the Americans.

[SPEAKER_03]: I recognize that my brother has a good relationship with Donald Trump.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is important.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is something meaningful.

[SPEAKER_03]: However, we won't engage with the Americans unless they drop the demand for denuclearization up front.

[SPEAKER_03]: So that happens.

[SPEAKER_03]: Then we have an increase in tensions, although it seems to be about the annual level where the Americans and the South Koreans are undergoing their large-scale war games, I think they call it freedom shield war games, tens of thousands of troops engaging live fire drills.

[SPEAKER_03]: The North Koreans view this as a [SPEAKER_03]: an attempt to or even maybe a preparation like a cover for an invasion in North Korea.

[SPEAKER_03]: We had an incident where some North Korean troops are reported by the South Korean staff across the border.

[SPEAKER_03]: The North Koreans said they informed the Americans they would be working on the border outpost there.

[SPEAKER_03]: They should know, but the South Korean forces open fire on the North Koreans.

[SPEAKER_03]: the North Koreans are warning and they have their typical inflammatory rhetoric saying that we're on the brink of an all-out conflict between the two sides here.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, Joe, I guess let's start with the statements from North Korea.

[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think that the North Koreans are being just very upfront or is this maybe a game they're trying to play?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, it's actually very significant to understand that last year, Kim Jong-un made the statement that we're no longer interested in unification, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So this had a big deal, it means that in the Constitution North Korea before it said they were the legitimate government of all Korea and they advocated reunification by force and that was an excuse used by the West and by a lot of the hawks and South Korea to believe that they had to prepare for an invasion that North Korea was going to invade and they said well we have to believe it's in their constitution now it's removed.

[SPEAKER_02]: and they changed the lyrics to songs like the National Anthem to remove any mention of the entire length of the Korean Peninsula or of the unification.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is a massive cultural change.

[SPEAKER_02]: They blew up the arch of the unification in North Korea and basically they've decided kind of the quiet part out loud that we've all known for years that they're not at all interested in being the same country [SPEAKER_02]: is that for South Koreans, the idea of unification means absorption.

[SPEAKER_02]: It means East Germany becoming part of West Germany, not an actual equal unification.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's completely logical that they want to do this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, it's been that way, in fact, de facto for probably 30 years, but now they make you explicit.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the South Koreans are now saying, oh God, they don't want us anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now it's dangerous they're gonna be nukas.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, it's ridiculous, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: They don't want to invade South Korea because they don't even want their people just into South Korean music, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: They surely aren't interested in having their people talk to South Koreans, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So to me, this is a prelude to something that could lead to a real peace because you can get something like you had [SPEAKER_02]: where nobody was really afraid that, you know, there was going to be a war in Germany, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Between East and West Germany, it was kind of stable.

[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody really liked that the other side was there, but it wasn't dangerous, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: To the level that it, you know, the career was.

[SPEAKER_02]: So.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a potential here to have a situation that's very similar to that, where you end up with something where there's an actual manageable piece along the border, if South Korea could say, okay, we don't want unification either.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, to be fair, Lee Jamilne, the new President in South Korea, his ministry of unification is talking about changing its name.

[SPEAKER_02]: to the ministry of interKorean relations or Korean peninsula relations.

[SPEAKER_02]: And is a step in that direction.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that the new president obviously wants to have a better relationship with North Korean and he wants peace on the peninsula as a lot of these progressive regions, South Korea do.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that rather than this really being a source of tension, it's a potential for some sort of a relaxation, if both sides can accept a reality where unification isn't the state of the objective.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, part of the problem with this is that for overseas Koreans, like Korean Americans, all they care about is unification.

[SPEAKER_02]: So for North Korea, they have to be very careful not to lose any support they had.

[SPEAKER_02]: from overseas Korean communities by completely disavowing it when they talk with them because that's part of what makes them interested in the Korean community.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a bit complicated.

[SPEAKER_02]: And both sides are dealing with the politics of this and trying to figure out a way to get past that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I do think that there's a greater potential for a resolution than there has been in a long time because of the words the North Koreans are saying.

[SPEAKER_02]: that sound aggressive, but really, it's an extremely reality in a way to move on to something that can actually work, for the long term, for actually stable piece, peaceful coexistence, okay?

[SPEAKER_02]: So I see it as potentially moving that way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, they're using harsh rhetoric, they always do, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And North Korea sometimes sounds like professional wrestling talk when they say things.

[SPEAKER_02]: But then that's what they like about Trump, is that Trump also, you know, using the professional wrestling hall of fame.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, there's some common language there and I think a lot of the statements that you put up from Trump are in a good example of that, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just being over the top, just like North Korea's over the top.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think they both kind of get that about each other.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not so worried about this as long as South Korea doesn't over yet.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, some are, you know, there's a whole bunch of people in South Korea now that are saying, well, this is why we have to have our own nuclear weapons, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, really, who are you going to nuke with them?

[SPEAKER_02]: You're going to drop a bomb in North Korea when Seoul is like 30 miles from the border.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, come on, that's stupid, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And nobody in the right mind believes that North Korea is going to target South Korea with nuclear weapons for the same reason.

[SPEAKER_02]: If they targeted anyone, maybe Guam and Japan is a little different, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But South Korea, it's like the hawks, they're really saying, oh, now it's so dangerous because they don't want unification anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: they see us as for and therefore they don't mind nuking us.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, you have it, the wind will stop that.

[SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's a fantastic point, Joe.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I do want to ask you about the prospects of Donald Trump meeting with Kim Jong-un.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Now, back to Joe Twilinger here, Joe.

[SPEAKER_03]: My question for you is, will Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un meet this year?

[SPEAKER_03]: Donald Trump, I think kind of off the cuff said he would like that to happen.

[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think it's going to be?

[SPEAKER_02]: I think Donald Trump wishes it would happen because I think in some way the North Koreans should take him up on it because he'll probably do absolutely anything and giving big concessions if he thinks it's going to help him get the Nobel Peace Prize.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because he wants to see what's the accolade and why not exploit that, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But honestly, it really depends on Putin.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that if Putin and Trump come to some kind of an agreement, I think that could encompass something related to North Korea and North and South Korea.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that it really is going to depend on that because North Korea is now married to Russia in a way.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that Trump wants a better relationship with Putin, and this is something that they could work on together that would actually be beneficial to everybody, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: You would make them both look good if they agree to some sort of a deal.

[SPEAKER_02]: where they each protect their half of the Korean Peninsula and try to build a stable piece there, you know, that could last.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's an interest in that.

[SPEAKER_02]: The question is, where is Russia's benefit from North Korea coming?

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, what's the degree to which they're willing to, you know, let the U.S.

[SPEAKER_02]: get involved in that?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so Joe, before I wrap up this Korea session, I did want to ask you about the tensions on the Korean Peninsula course.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think the U.S.

[SPEAKER_03]: and South Korea broke up their annual war games and they're going to conduct more than later this month.

[SPEAKER_03]: But there was some certainly fiery rhetoric, a deployment of lots of military assets to the Korean Peninsula.

[SPEAKER_03]: The U.S.

[SPEAKER_03]: has re-established a new military intelligence units unit in South Korea near the border.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they moved, you know, I'm sure this is just some ballad they created what they called the second super squad during of U.S.

[SPEAKER_03]: fighter jets.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think they're at 22's and they moved them 100 miles closer to the Korean border.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, I don't know if you want to give us a 1 through 10 or the old terrorism, blue through red, scale on how hot our tensions on the Korean peninsula at this time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it's nearly as bad as they're making its out.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of it's bluster.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's, again, it's like professional wrestling.

[SPEAKER_02]: People say things that are a bit extreme.

[SPEAKER_02]: Knowing it's going to come down to something less extreme than that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think Trump certainly is aware that he's just trying to get into negotiating position.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's what he always does, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think he's going to go to war in North Korea because that's stupid, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: There's no way to win that.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you know, start a war with an enemy that has nuclear weapons.

[SPEAKER_02]: especially one that's that day, it's exactly half of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not worried.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do think there's a lot of increased tension.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of people in the US who really don't want anything good to come out of the relationship with North Korea.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like for example, they had this story last week about this seal team incident that allegedly happened in North Korea.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, that's obviously just somebody, if you really, I look at it as being kind of like an extension of this, [SPEAKER_02]: The way Trump makes people crazy, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: He can make people just do crazy things and lose their sense of rationality.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I assume that operations like bad all these infiltrations happen all the time everywhere in the world and we do it all the time and we don't know about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because whenever they do, they're probably pretty good at it and then usually we don't find out, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just someone I think you just wanted to stir up trouble for, you know, they were just so, [SPEAKER_02]: Their mind remains so crazy by Trump that they released this information that they probably shouldn't have done and wouldn't have done if they were being rational and that's why it's out in the news, but I think that It's kind of a nothing burger because it probably does happen all the time and nothing came of it, you know Yeah, like this sort of stuff happens all the time, you know, and I think it's the same with all the tensions that are building up and everything else, it's kind of like [SPEAKER_02]: This is Trump does.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's going to Trump, you know, he's going to make everything into a big high-tenth situation and try to come in and make it go away overnight and then they'll be hugging and kissing again.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like it's what he does.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can't take him very seriously when he talks like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you do, you'd make yourself crazy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he does certainly made people crazy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now, I got this clip of Zelensky that I want to play for you, Joe.

[SPEAKER_03]: While everybody is watching this clip, share the show.

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[SPEAKER_03]: Chris, let's play this clip of Zelensky talking about the Trump Putin Summit in Alaska.

[SPEAKER_00]: What did you think when you saw that and you saw the red carpet and you saw Putin arrive to talk about your country?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that it was a bilateral summit.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a pity that Ukraine was not there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that President Trump gave Putin what he wanted to hit.

[SPEAKER_01]: He wanted, you know, he wanted very much to meet with President Trump with a president of the United States.

[SPEAKER_01]: and I think that's Putin's got it and it's a bit to it.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, Joe, I wanted to ask you about this statement from Zelensky because this is often what we're going, if Trump plans to meet with Kim the last time he met with Kim, the same argument applies, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: That by meeting with these world leaders that are in the at-siled international community, you are bestowing legitimacy on them.

[SPEAKER_03]: You are giving [SPEAKER_03]: So what do you think was a major victory for Putin to meet with Donald Trump to be pictured with the American leader just because it happened?

[SPEAKER_02]: Look, you can't change anything if you don't talk to people, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, you know, again, the first time we met Kim Jong-un and we came back, the Obama administration said you guys are bad people because you talked to Kim Jong-un.

[SPEAKER_02]: Trump, [SPEAKER_02]: called Dennis to trump tower and said, this is wonderful, anything you do to talk to people is better than shooting at them, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And you can't make a deal if you don't talk to people.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that it's bad to talk to Putin.

[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, they should be talking more.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we need embassies in the countries we don't get along with that are more active than the ones we have in Canada, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's huge embassy in Canada.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we have nobody in Tehran and in Moscow these days it's nothing like what it used to be and we need to get that back up because if you don't talk you can't solve a problem.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now we all know.

[SPEAKER_02]: how the Ukraine war is going to end, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: People don't want to admit it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to talk about it, but we all understand that Ukraine's going to lose a bit of territory and there's going to be, you know, it's just inevitable, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because Russia's not going to stop until they have the territory they want and that's just what's going to happen, whether or not you like it and the question is, how many more people die before they accept this reality?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that's what Zelensky's fighting against, of course, because his political career depends on staying in power, and that depends on the war continuing, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that he personally has a lot to lose from Trump meeting Putin.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, I mean, Trump meeting Putin is just, and it's like, this is reality.

[SPEAKER_02]: You gotta talk to Putin, you gotta deal with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you gotta do something through of our relationship with him if we're gonna get anywhere in terms of solving things like Korea or the situations with Iran or other parts of the world, you gotta soften these relationships and get people talking again.

[SPEAKER_02]: So talking is a win for everybody, maybe except Zelensky.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that that's certainly does seem to be the case show.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now before we wrap up here today, I know your world travels have taken you towards Venezuela.

[SPEAKER_03]: And on the show, I have been very concerned since the start of the Trump administration, but really increasing the over the summer.

[SPEAKER_03]: that they are looking to conduct a Noriega style regime change operation against Maduro.

[SPEAKER_03]: And absurd as that sounded at the first time I said it, absios reported a White House official has actually told them that that they are considering Noriega 2.0 in Venezuela and this is what our Secretary of State Marco Rubio had to say about the situation last week.

[SPEAKER_04]: But the days of acting with impunity and an engine shot down or a couple drugs grabbed off a boat to take those days over now.

[SPEAKER_04]: We are going to wage combat against drug cartels that are flooding American streets and killing Americans.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll take up the legal authority for this strike.

[SPEAKER_04]: the legal authority.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, look, again, I'm not going to answer for the White House Council to face it to say that all of those steps were taken and advance the President has designated these as terrorist organizations, which is what they are when you flood American streets of drugs, you are terrorizing America, and that's going to end.

[SPEAKER_04]: Will you act out?

[SPEAKER_04]: It states the President's top obligation.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's to secure the national interest and the national security of our people.

[SPEAKER_04]: I know of no president that means that more than this one our president now president Trump And so, you know, but well, I'm not gonna speculate about what might come down the road.

[SPEAKER_03]: Let's get in there guys So Joe my question is how concerned are you?

[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think it's possible that we end up actually going to a hot war in Benin's will here?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, didn't they try this in Trump's first term when they...

Why is I believe, yeah, it was the legitimate president, which is kind of silly in a way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Then as it was a huge country, there's a lot of people.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, they've lost a huge proportion in their population, like it's an unprecedented refugee crisis.

[SPEAKER_02]: In hemisphere.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's still a large country with a lot of people.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think it's not, it's not, it's not, you know, nor you get it's, it's a much more difficult problem than that, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't have the kind of access in this way that we had in Panama, you know, it's, it's very different.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I, I don't really think that they're stupid enough to go that far.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's pretty hard, it's pretty hard to do because the other thing is that people don't understand is that in Venezuela, even though, you know, yes, there's a lot of corruption and there's a lot of stuff going on that, you know, isn't that great, you know, it's not, it's not a functional government, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because they took the most prosperous land in the Western hemisphere and turned you into a basket case, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: They have like the best, they oil, they have [SPEAKER_02]: And it just, you know, it turned into a complete disaster, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not a good system, but a lot of the people there are really, really poor.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like the community where we were, we've had an ongoing study in Venezuela for the last 30 years, looking at health of this one indigenous community.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that community supports the government.

[SPEAKER_02]: Why?

[SPEAKER_02]: Not because the government's helping them, but because the government's hurting the rich people more.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's kind of the thing you got to remember is that most of the people in Venezuela especially now are poor because rich people left and the poor people are not so anti government as you might think.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think it's going to be pretty hard to do and that's what they found when they tried to organize protests to get rid of in the last time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And my understanding, Joe, is that Venezuela is actually a somewhat well-armed society.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the poor of that country include a lot of young men.

[SPEAKER_03]: And apparently Maduro is mobilizing the militia, and he's talking about 4.5 people already under arms with the ability to go to 8 million people.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that is.

[SPEAKER_03]: That is a massive, massive, massive force.

[SPEAKER_03]: And certainly, you know, the US will be able to put a tattoo marines, a guided missile destroyers in the Caribbean, and just barrage the society.

[SPEAKER_03]: But that's not necessarily going to dislodge Maduro or the communist from power.

[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, it may create a rally around the flag effect.

[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, in bold and Maduro, even more.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, from your experience there has [SPEAKER_03]: you know the U.S.

[SPEAKER_03]: pressure the U.S.

[SPEAKER_03]: regime changes weather against maduro or Hugo Chavez under George W.

Bush has any of that weakened that the communist grabs bomb power there to threatened you know that they're real in any significant form not for anything I've seen I mean the thing is that again they have support from the the poor people [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the only ones that are left, right, because most of the rich people got out during the refugee crisis.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I've got a lot of friends in Venezuela, and I feel really bad for them because it is such a completely dysfunctional society.

[SPEAKER_02]: The moment, partly because they're doing and partly because of their own internal, just the silliness of some aspects of the way the system works is so much corruption.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I really just, I don't see the public turning on him.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like the battle of Britain, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: The Hitler wanted to demoralize Germany, steady made them rally around them, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: when Germany invaded Russia, they all rallied around Stalin, who'd been torturing them earlier.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is how human beings are, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: The enemy abroad is always worse than the enemy at home.

[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the big things I've noticed about like, American foreign policy is that.

[SPEAKER_02]: We used to be a pretty good at at least giving lip service to trying to win hearts and minds of people around the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had all the voice of America reading for Europe [SPEAKER_02]: and other things where we tried to really change the way people in other regime saw America.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we really are terrible at that now, compared to what we used to be.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, I look at Iran, for example.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've been to Iran for work as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in Iran, I would walk down the street and people come up to me to get away from them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, what do I say?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm American, oh we love American, my cousins in San Francisco, and oh there's wonderful country.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, how do we not rally hearts and minds in a place that likes us, you know, where the people like us?

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's well that they used to love us, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was never a problem, but we've just started to become so bad at that relying on force for everything and forgetting that the number one strength of America is soft power.

[SPEAKER_02]: and we're undermining that every degree now we're like trying to restrict international students or the free speech of international students.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, wait a minute.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing because we want people.

[SPEAKER_02]: We want to tell people that we're different and that our society is more free and then we tell them you can't save things when you're here because you're not one of us and then they're like, oh, so it's the same bullshit.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like, how did we screw this up so badly?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because it used to be absolutely the opposite way.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there were Supreme Court cases about propaganda that said, you can, and you can receive propaganda and other countries can send it through the mail because they'll American would ever tolerate being told they can't read whatever they want to read.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now it's like, oh yeah, we got a sensor RT, we got a sensor China, we got a sensor all this stuff because our people are too stupid to figure out what's real news and what's not really [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, absolutely brilliant analysis, Joe.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, so two quick questions before you wrap here.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you have an estimate of how many countries that you've traveled to and just tell the audience how many languages you speak.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I've probably been to, I mean, 100, 110 something like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Countries.

[SPEAKER_02]: Speak is a strong word, but I mean, I can get by at least and communicate in about 10 languages.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you could order yourself and me all in ten languages.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you need the newspaper.

[SPEAKER_02]: I could read the newspaper and ten languages.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's, I think, really important because if you really want to understand the world and solve problems, you got to understand the language.

[SPEAKER_02]: You got to be able to read what they write and you got to listen to what they say.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, people, like, tell me all the time they say, well, you don't wear anything if you pay attention to North Korean television, for example.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'd say I were in more from watching that I often have the live stream or the tape-delayed live stream on my window while I'm working in the background because there's so many things you learn because anything that's on TV may be propaganda, but it has to at least be consistent with reality, otherwise your people won't, they'll be like that's ridiculous, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So you learn a lot about what's going on by paying attention to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now with Google translate, anyone can do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's no excuse to rely on to not pay attention to what even foreign government sources say.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because even if you want to say, well, that's all propaganda, at least you're listening to what they want you to believe they believe.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's important if you want to make a deal.

[SPEAKER_02]: You've got to understand what the other guy thinks.

[SPEAKER_02]: And put yourself in new shoes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you've got to have empathy and understanding for what's going on.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the best way to do that in my era was to learn the language and try to study it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Today, you can simply use Google Translate and speak 150 languages and read anything you want.

[SPEAKER_02]: So do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in New York Times, you know?

[SPEAKER_03]: I will put North Korean state media on the top of the list.

[SPEAKER_03]: The statements are absolutely hilarious, much of the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes I think intentionally, so it's not just all communist propaganda.

[SPEAKER_03]: There is some, I think, intentional humor in all of it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Joe, thank you so much for your time today.

[SPEAKER_02]: Mike Trump does, that's the thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's the same, Trump does the same thing for the same reasons.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Joe.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for your time today.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'll have you back on the show again.

[SPEAKER_03]: Certainly any time we have major North Korea news.

[SPEAKER_03]: I always love your take.

[SPEAKER_03]: You have such great insight on the situation.

[SPEAKER_03]: P on game.

[SPEAKER_03]: Certainly better than most other people from the U.S.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I appreciate your time today and we'll do it again soon.

[SPEAKER_02]: But thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a pleasure.