Hi, I'm Francisco Budkin and I'm Louis Eerie and welcome to season five of our New Zealand Hereld podcast, The Little Things.

So good to have you with us.

Here on The Little Things, we like to tackle a raft of issues offer from the perspective of middle age onwards.

Although a lot of the information we share is useful to note at any age any gender right.

Nowise absolutely, maybe even my kids get something out of this sometimes once awesome to listen, I don't I think they need it to go to sleep.

One of the things we've noticed that as our children have begun to leave home, and we've watched friends kids leave home, some couples are making decisions about their futures.

We probably all making decisions about their futures, but they're making the decision to perhaps leave or separate from their partners that have been with for decades and a.

Lot of the time other people are surprised by it, Like friends and family are quite surprised.

They still looking at them going.

But I thought you guys were happy you've been together for thirty years, you know, But they've actually been thinking about it for quite a while.

That's right.

Yeah, And they've been making obviously making an outward go of it.

So look, long term relationships aren't easy.

Romantic love is hard to maintain, sexual chemistry waxes and ways until death do us part is quite a significant contract.

It is.

It is, but a lovely one to you know, venture into if you'd like to.

Yeah, we're hearing a lot more about the cost of divorce.

We're hearing a lot about single women not being as well prepared for retirement and it's worth having listened to Nadine Higgins in our podcast if you haven't listened to that one.

And of course dating in middle age gets spoken about quite a lot.

The median age of divorce in New Zealand was forty five point five years for women and forty eight point one for men in twenty twenty three.

So how does life look for a midlife woman post divorce and how can we be support a friend going through it?

So yeah, so that's what the focus is today.

We thought we'd get to the bottom of divorce and dating and everything that comes in between, and is kind of a tricky one for us to cover because while I've watched friends go through it and admired them hugely, for it as well.

Some of us as personal experience separation, divorce or midlife dating ourselves, and I'm not in your goodness, I'm not sure how I'd navigate it.

All seems seems to work for some people, and I see them getting really you know, excited about it and maybe wonder what I'm missing out on.

But you know, I can't even find a date night from fomo.

Well it cross my mind, but no, I can't even find date night for my husband, and my children are still in an eaty face.

So you know it's not for me right now.

But we do know the perfect woman to help us out with this episode, Yes we do.

I have called on my colleague, Lorna Riley.

Lorna is a mainstay of the New Zealand radio scene and it's currently the day host of Coast FM and the host of travel podcast trip Notes.

Listeners may have noticed a couple of name changes from Lorna over the years.

Is that the politest way of putting out, It's a very slight way, thank you.

She's been married twice and separated at different stages of her life and so she's here today to share her experience and wisdom from those hard times, but also Lorna's story come with a happy ending and a lot of hope for any of you out there looking for love again.

Lorna, thank you so much for being with us.

Welcome in.

Thank you, thank you for having me.

Yes, tip, do not change your name when you get married.

That's an easy piece of wisdom.

I can share it right off the bat.

That's brilliant.

Well I didn't and you didn't get married, so you didn't know.

But even if I I mean, I've been with my partner for twenty two years, but even if I had got married, I was always professionally.

That was my name, and so it was a bit I wasn't on air at that stage.

I married my husband and I didn't change my name, but then we had a child and we had a business that linked in to that name, and I kind of thought, eh, no, I'll change it.

And then you know, when you split, you don't want to necessarily keep that person's name.

But I did, but I did professionally.

And then when I got married again, my second husband wasn't very happy about the first husband's name being there, so I had to change my name again.

I should have just gone back to my maide name, but I didn't like a fool.

So there you go.

There's my wisdom.

Well, I know what the way we solve that problem with our kids is we put both of our surnames, like all the kids of Radkin Akins.

They're not hyphenated rodkinsistent middle name.

You got two kins, yeah, Rod can Akin.

Oh yeah yeah.

So so that we go.

There's just a little solution for you out there if you wondering how that impacts pure laziness.

I've got no professional reason to do it.

And also I'm an a in my husband's a w I just couldn't go all the way.

And you know what, now, I have trouble with past my passports, different my driver's license, and when people book travel for me, it's never in the right name.

And so these are all things you think about to write off the bat.

Okay, Lorna, Ye, you've been married twice engaged for a third time.

Congratulations, lovely story.

Is there a difference to becoming single when you're older or younger?

Oh yeah, oh yeah, absolutely, And it's probably the things you might expect.

I think.

I think when you're younger, maybe you're a little more hasty to become single, you kind of go, oh, here's a bit of a problem.

But you know, plenty more fish in the sea.

And I think as you get older you realize that actually no relationship is perfect, that it needs working on.

You understand that when a relationship fails, two people have failed at that relationship, not one person.

So I think you're a lot more circumspect.

And also, you know, there's the practicalities too, being single in your fifties.

The thought of having to be naked in front of a new person again is terrifying, absolutely terrifying.

And there's all these social stigma of being single later on as well.

You know, when you're young and it's great, you've got lots of single friends and you can go out and you later on you find everyone's kind of paired up and there aren't plenty more fish in the sea, not necessarily ones you want to catch.

Hatch.

I can see what you mean.

I mean the friends I have who have separated a divorce for any number of reasons.

You know, either it's they've just been in a really unsatisfactory marriage for a long time, or there has been an actual catalyst in terms of you know, somebody meeting somebody else or something like that.

It's I don't know about what you think, but I feel like maybe the guys meet people more quickly after the divorce and the women don't.

Would that be I don't know that I could talk to that really, because I've only got kind of got my own experience to go on.

But both my ex husband's got it sounds so bad, both my ex husband's station.

Now, you shouldn't say that.

It doesn't sound bad at all.

It's a life.

It's a life well lived, Lorna Well, yeah.

And it's not exactly a secret.

But no, both my ex husbands were single for quite a long time.

In fact, one of them still single and the other one took a long time to find another partner.

So yeah, I don't know.

I think if there is infidelity, like you alluded to, I think that can quite often be on the male side.

But they don't necessarily want the end of the marriage or the relationship.

They just sort of get.

Exactly Yes, that's true.

We've got some statistics about who tends to initiate a divorce, and I think sometimes men will stay, but they won't actually initiate this.

They want all the lovely things that the comfortable, long standing relationship provides, but they just also want a bit of excitement elsewhere.

So it's nearly two thirds of divorces initiated by women.

Ye does that surprise you?

No, it actually really doesn't, because and I think that would be increasing.

I think women these days they're not ready to just settle.

They're not ready to be invisible.

They're not ready to be treated second best.

And I wonder too, whether more of them are working, they've got more independent life.

They sort of see that there is a possibility that they can actually do it.

You know.

The practicality is, you know, it's manageable.

Yep.

And I think we have great support networks as well as women.

Men flounder I have seen after separation because they don't have as strong a support network.

You know, you might have your old mate who takes you out for a bern, but generally, you know, women are much more supportive of each other when it comes to this kind of thing.

You mentioned before.

You know, it definitely is harder divorcing sort of in your fifties and when you're older in things.

It's a term I hate.

They call it great divorce.

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know why.

It just it feels like, well, I I don't know why it's.

Doing the very speed but silver divorce.

I think they're trying to shut it up.

Either way, I don't it's not an aster.

I don't like it.

But it has been compared a little bit to widowhood because you've possibly been with someone for decades.

You know that you've shared a long life regardless of how it ends, and that can be a massive change.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

I remember when my first marriage broke up, we saw a relationship counselor, even though we knew we were breaking up, because she said, you will always have a relationship because you have children together.

And I think that was instrumental in the fact that we are still very good friends today, Like we have joint birthday parties for the kids.

He comes for Christmas dinner with his partner.

You know, it's he is one of my best friends still.

But I don't think people always see it that way.

Unfortunately, I was.

Going to ask you about the therapy because I think, as you say, surely it's good to try and say what you want to say and get some closure, you know, both both parties, to sort of to have some time to really think about it and understand the other person's perspective of the you know what I mean, And it's very hard to do that on your own.

Sometimes it does help to have someone else who is asking questions and sort of pointing things out.

Absolutely.

Now, this was a long time ago.

I was thirty five when my first marriage broke up and we had two young kids.

And my real regret about that time as I didn't push harder for counseling prior to it getting to split stage.

We did this uncoupling counseling, but I do wish we'd done it before.

My husband at the time was not keen.

He turned out in hindsight that he was actually severely depressed, but no one had picked up on that, and that was affecting a whole lot of things, and he just the last thing he wanted to do was go and talk to somebody else.

But looking back in hindsight, wished we'd gone and done that because I think possibly we could have salvaged things in our case.

Wow, gosh, that's really reflective.

At the end of my breast cancer journey, we had some marriage counseling because we, of course quite naturally on quite separate page.

Oh yeah, and we found it really healing, but gosh, you know it does there are some things that hit hard when you're asked to really.

It's very confronting, it is, and I'm not sure as a younger person that I would have had the thick enough skin to be able to take some of what comes up at that sort of counseling, But I do thoroughly recommend it if anyone's in that boat right now where they're thinking things aren't going too well, that actually, couple's counseling is a very very healthy and as.

You say, it might be the last thing you actually feel like doing, so it just might be one of those things that you go, we're just going to do this, and it's not cheap, and you've got to find it right one and you've both got to be willing to talk when you get there.

Yeah.

Yeah, what's the best response to someone when they tell you that they're separating the divorce Because a lot of the time, when it happens to a couple who may have been together for three decades, they've raised their kids, they've realized their living separate lives and it kind of been working.

Maybe towards the separation for a while, but it hasn't been obvious to a lot of people around them.

And you know, everyone has their own perspective on separation and divorce and things like that.

So you know, what kind of responses did you get and what's the helpful response?

You not to say, oh, no, but you two were the perfect couple.

We all wanted to be like, that's not helpful, and we got that a lot with my first marriage, also not helpful with my second marriage.

You kind of went, oh, yeah, knew this was gonna happen, you know, any relationship.

No, you don't, And you don't run down the prospective ex partner either, because there's every chance that they may in fact get back together again and they may not forget what you've said about their partner.

I think all you can kind of do and not even asking about why or how, because often people don't know exactly why.

I remember this counselor telling us that there was one relationship she had that had split up, and the catalyst was he left his socks on the floor, you know, and that was it.

She just suddenly exploded, that's it.

I can't be married to you anymore.

And he was baffled, like, how did this happen?

But of course you multitudo thought beside.

But so you know, it's actually quite hard to explain to people sometimes why.

But I think all you can say to someone who has told you that they're thinking of separating or whatever, is what can I do to support you?

Because that was one of the hardest things.

I think is we were friends with a lot of other couples, and I had feared that people would take sides, which some did, but that kind of naturally fell along the friendship lines.

Some very good friends of both of ours ended up sort of coming to my side, even though it wasn't a battle, but just that.

But some people just stayed away all together.

It was like it was a disease that possibly they might catch, or maybe it was too awkward when we always did things as couples for there's to suddenly be a singleton in there, so they just stopped kind of hanging out.

So it was really interesting.

I know someone who recently separated and it's all been very amicable, and you know, they've done a lot of therapy together and a bit like you still have a very strong family life with their children.

And things.

But you know, the guy just does not want to meet people, and all his friends are trying to set him up, and he's just and no one's listening, and he's like, I'm not ready.

Please don't put me in this awkward position where every time I come for dinner or I come to a party, you've invited someone from me, from me, I'm a fine.

That is not fair for the women that are being or tried to be paired with him as well, because when someone's not ready for a relationship, Yeah, it's it can be very hurtful and very harmful.

Yeah, well he's obviously very eligible, perhaps, but you know it doesn't it.

People just want to see their friends happy, don't they, And they think they're.

Doing the right thing, but they're just not listening.

Yeah, but surely there's.

A recovery period, like any trauma in your life.

Where are you?

Yeah, I think so.

I think there's a grieving process.

I suppose some people might go off the deep end and you know, go a little bit silly for a while, depending on, you know, what the circumstances of the breakup where.

But I think.

I mean, if you're just looking for a bit of fun, sure, but if you're actually looking for another relationship, yes, I think you need time to let the dust settle, to let the grieving, because even if you're the instigator, it's still a very painful process.

If you've got children involved, you know, you want to make sure you're not kind of like right, meet your new daddy five minutes later.

You've really got a tread very careful.

I don't know anyone who's entered the separation process lightly or you know, and they've kind of they potentially would have done it earlier, but they've kind of thought through the pain and difficulty in all the stages really daunting.

I mean even just all the tasks you have to do a daunting to even become separated, you know, unmeshing your finances, and there's all the familial stuff, not just the children, but the in laws and the and the cousins and everyone else that sort of involved and entwined, and a lot of people put it off, I think, will push it to one side because it just feels like too much hard work to even contemplate separating.

But I'm here to say that there is a better life on the other side.

So what do you wish you'd noan before separating or getting a divorce.

Both my separations I instigated, and I felt great guilt about that, particularly the first time, and so I didn't necessarily follow all my lawyer's advice, and I was probably over generous in things I agreed to.

And the second time I was overly generous again, but that's just because I wanted it done.

I just was I couldn't be bothered dragging it through the courts and everything.

So I think women tend to be affected quite negatively financially from a separation.

I don't think any of us are smart enough to, you know, have secret bank accounts or but you know, we've also had those years where we haven't necessarily been earning, that's right.

And you know, when I separated the first time, my children were three and five, so getting another full time job was not that easy, you know, when you had had little ones to look after.

So yeah, that is a big, a big consideration for women, is the financial aspect that I probably didn't think through.

Yeah, I mean, I guess, so how do you know that?

So with all those external pressures and knowing it's going to be hard, how can you comment on how you think that somebody would know that this is actually we've at the end of the road.

Yeah, I think if you're just for me, it was about being suffocated, feeling caged a little bit.

I met my first husband when I was twenty two.

I was just starting off in my career.

He was doing really well.

We worked in the same industry, which possibly wasn't a great thing.

My career kind of took off and his had stalled a little bit.

I think that created some tension.

There was a seven year age gap between us, and I think that came into play as well.

And I think he wanted to live this sort of life of like we were retired already and I was in my mid thirties, and I was like, this is my prime, this is my whoo.

So yeah, that was the main feeling.

And with the second year, that's completely different kettle of fish.

But again, I just wanted to live my life by myself.

I was quite happy to be by myself.

There weren't other people involved.

It wasn't like that.

I just wanted to be free to be me.

You know, that's kind of you know, but new age.

But I just really wanted that opportunity.

Yeah, and if you can't do that within a marriage if that's not because you know, I do have a husband who doesn't really going out.

He doesn't ask you where I'm going really or or and Francisca and I have been free to roam around the country and do our runs and everything.

We've always if I if he was at any point like well what are you doing?

Or you've spent more or yeah, I would make me stop and think for sure.

Yeah, yeah, there's that trust, and there's that you know, I wanted to travel.

That is a big thing for me, is traveling, and neither of my husbands have wanted to travel at all, which is a big issue.

Yeah, because you know, I'd prefer to travel with my partner if I can.

I'm quite happy to do other trips with friends all by myself, but you know, one or two would be quite nice.

You're listening to the little things, and I guess on the podcast today as Coast Day host Lorna Ridley talking divorce and dating that we'll be back shortly after this break.

Welcome back now, Lorna.

What's the emotional toll you've mentioned sort of the financial You know that it can be quite difficult for women financially when they get divorced.

What about the emotional toll of separation and divorce.

Oh, I don't think that can be underestimated.

It is massive.

And again, facing that at thirty five was very different to facing it at fifty three, which are the two ages I was.

When I with my separations.

When I was thirty five, the emotional toll revolved a lot around the children because we agreed to have fifty to fifty custody sort of one week about, and it was pretty good to start off with.

We rented an apartment and so we did the week about, not the children, so it was quite sort of stable for them in the family home.

But eventually we settled financially and I bought my own place.

And both times with my separations, I'm the one that moved out of the family home because I was the one that instigated and I felt I should And yet that was terribly emotional as well.

I remember my children said, Dad says that this is our real home because this is, you know, where we were born and things, and I just remember being gutted by that driving past the family home when I knew my kids were in there.

It was their week with their dad, and I was going to visit a friend and I would go past every time and just go, My babies are in there, and I just want hug them and I can't, so very very difficult.

Is it just time?

Does time make that manageable?

And does make it manageable?

And my ex and I our relationship got better as well, so we would actually kind of go or let's all go to the park, or let's all go to a basketball game, so we could actually see the kids together and hang out and think it was good for them as well.

But yeah, that was that was a big emotional thing.

Quite a few friends who have separated have really struggled at first.

The kids have been old enough to kind of, you know, spend a week or five days with one parent and then swap over, and initially they don't know what to do with themselves, and they you know, feel like, you know, they feel berieved that their kids aren't there, and it's doesn't take too.

Long, no, And then when you're mixing, you know, I'm going week, your life looks really good, to be fair, Yes, that that was definitely the case, that that it does give you certain freedoms as well.

You think you know, I would love a break from my children.

Will you get that?

But be careful what you wish for.

Yeah, I was going to say that a break every now and again is quite different to every second week, and yeah, yeah, quite quite difficult.

The second time I separated, obviously a lot older, I wouldn't say why, is a bit a lot older.

That had a different emotional toll.

My daughter was pregnant with my granddaughter, and that was one of the reasons that we split, because we were living with my ex, who was horrified that a baby was going to be born into this house, no matter that he had known my daughter for fifteen years.

So I sort of uped and left with everybody.

And so I felt a terrible weight on my shoulders because I felt like I was having to be not only strong for my children, my daughter and my younger daughter.

My son by this stage was you know, living his own life and on his own two feet, but for my granddaughter as well.

And so that was a that was very emotional.

And then of course I got health issues smack bang right on the brink of separation.

I ended up in hospital with a tubo ovarian absess, and when I recovered from that after six weeks, I got hit with a second breast cancer diagnosis and then had to go through chemo and radiotherapy and all those other things.

And I remember thinking at the time, really shouldn't have separated because I could do with, you know, the support right now.

But actually, yeah, no regrets at all.

And you can't just be with somebody because they can help you through, you know, a terrible time.

It's just that I was trying to be strong for my children and then I felt like I was letting them down by being ill myself.

But yeah, I'm not a great believer in regrets, and like I say, I have that one regret about the first separation, but I don't have too many.

It's an emotional toll, but it's survivable and it's thrivable.

Wow, I don't even know if that's it.

Yeah, that's the word.

I want to make it.

Please make it a word.

And yeah, but I'm not just saying, you know, you can get through this, but actually you can thrive on the other side.

And I reckon my fifties have been my best decade.

Oh you're flying, But as you say, it does take a little while.

And I think even when people know they need to go.

Yes, you need to almost in the back of your mind, just know it is going to take a little time to sort out all those things, to sort out the finances and to work out what you're going to do with property, and to get children settled, and to find your own rhythm.

I've my unscientific research on this, or unscientific survey that I've done from everybody I know is it's taken them about two years.

Oh yeah, it takes about two years, and then they suddenly go, Actually, everything is good and we're sort of sorted, and I'm moving forward and I'm not thinking about it every day and life is good.

It's exactly right.

Sometimes you can't see that light out at the end of the tunnel.

But with everything tough that I've been through, I have the mantra this too shell pass.

It's engraved on the ring that I wear on my finger every day, and my daughter actually has a tattoo of it as well.

So just reminding yourself that this is temporary, that it will get better, and as you say, two years and the grand scheme of things is not very long.

At the time, it seems like forever when you're living it.

Going through it, you know, when it's groundhog Day and nothing seems to be getting any better, but you do need to remember that it is temporary and that there is light on the other side.

Yeah.

There's a doctor where I work at the university who has put little sayings on her door, and one of them is, if you're going through, how just keep getting on going?

Yeah, yeah, I don't know where that comes from.

It, Yeah, I often think about that when because you particularly the same with the cancer diagnosis.

There is no other way through except for through, yeah, well hopefully through.

Yeah yeah, yeah, Well that's exactly right.

Yeah, that's all you can do.

And it all adds to this kind of incredible resilience as well, I guess.

Yeah, And I think if you have to dwell on the positives and you have to keep reminding yourself why you've done this, whether it's for a better life for your children, whether it's a better life for you, whether it's just so you can you live with yourself, whether you want to achieve more than you could have achieved in that relationship, or maybe it's just a relationship that's run its course.

It doesn't even need to be a bad relationship, but maybe it's just you know, sometimes there are relationships for the times, and you know, we go through such life changes, particularly women.

I think where you know, where the the the Bonnie to their Clyde for a while, and then children come along, and you know, everything's all about the kids.

And then the kids start leaving home.

They don't, you know, to become teenagers that don't want their mums around anymore, and things change there.

Our careers, you know, have so many different cycles if we choose to become mothers, and so I think that you actually end up quite a different person from the one that.

Married, was standing at the altar, that was standing at the altars again.

And I don't think that's a good or a bad thing.

I just think it's a thing just life.

Yeah, it is life.

And and you know what they say, you know, some people can grow together, and that's true, and some people don't.

You know, one day, these great divorces that are happening.

I was shocked at the rate of over sixty fives.

I thought, good lord, we've just sucks, you know, married for forty years and something.

But you know, I think that's probably right.

Stop working, kids have left home, don't see the grandchildren that much.

You sit and look at each other and go, what have we actually gone in common?

You know, maybe it's nothing.

I also don't like the term a failed marriage, because you can have you can you know, marriages do end, doesn't mean that they weren't successful at some peple.

Well, that's right, that's exactly right.

Like I consider my marriages were both successful until they weren't.

And you know that's that's nobody's fault.

It's that.

Yeah, that's the way it is.

Okay, let's get dating.

Yeah, tell me you're now engaged to Mike.

How did st of you meet.

On a dating app?

On hinge?

So I tried a couple of dating apps, and as did he.

Someone to sort of tell the story in parallel, so we both became single around about the same time.

He'd been married for twenty five years and has three children, as I have three children.

And we both kind of met our first partner on the dating apps around about the same time, and those relationships lasted about the same length, which is about six months.

And we both fold for those people pretty heavily, I think, as you tend to do with a first relationship.

But they were people, both of them that weren't ready for relationships.

They shouldn't have put themselves out there as being ready for relationships because they weren't.

And you also learn about being really honest on the apps.

Like I just after a while, after a lot of sort of time wasters and people I didn't have much in common with that, I only wanted to date people who had children, grown up children, whatever, I didn't care, but they had to have had children because otherwise they wouldn't understand my situation of living with two of my daughters and a granddaughter as well.

And I've got a couple of nasty messages from men going you, you're just being so picky and you could be missing out on really great people.

Did you go Joe like you?

But no?

And I said, you're probably right.

There'll be some wonderful men out there without kids.

And I'm sure it works for some people, but for me, that was a boundary.

You know, never be afraid to put out your own boundaries.

There is a fucking of one great bit of advice.

I discovered this group after I met Mike, but it is absolutely brilliant and he passes all of the test.

It's called the Burning Haystack method.

So it's a Facebook group and it's run by an academic in the States.

She'shilarious.

She's single, she's trying to date.

It's not going well, but she is all about the applied rhetoric, and so her theory is, how do you find a needle in a haystack?

You burn the haystack down.

So you just are swiping, swipe and swiping anything that is any red flag, anything that comes up that breaks one of the group rules, you just get rid of them because eventually those things are going to be problematic.

And it's it's actually brilliant to see it in action.

You see some things that seem okay and seem innocuous and harmless on a dating app, and then she analyzes it and you're like, oh, I see, I see what to look out for now, and it's it's really good.

And like I said, I've gone back and looked over my all, Mike's and my correspondence to start off with, and he passes completely.

Is that for any age?

Can I?

Oh?

Yeah, absolutely towards older.

But I've got some of the young girls here at work onto it, not having much fun on the dating apps.

You know, if he said is he loves cuddles.

Yeah, he likes the sex before.

The cuddles and then but it's like lovely.

But it's like it's like real estate language, right, you know, there's when when you sell a house you read between the lines what they're trying to tell you.

Oh, it doesn't get any sun, but it has this.

So it's kind of about just how fast.

I would leave anybody who's holding a fish.

But there are lots of yes, yes, fish and anything that is.

And they talk about the men, the men that they set up their dating profiles to attract other men by the looks of things, because it's all like a rugby or you know, boxing matches or sports things or and don't get me started on the I don't know.

Some men just send photos of the mid riff.

I don't know.

I don't quite know what that's about.

Unsolicited picks.

I have written about this before in the Herald.

I thought I might be too old to be getting some of those.

Yeah I did, Yeah, I did so.

I mean they're not great looking at the best of times, but if you're going to take a photo with a very unflattering angle, send it to.

Me too much.

I mean, at least did that give you a bit of a laugh at least?

All was that?

Yeah?

Yeah, But I.

Also thought, in what universe would that work for you?

In what universe are you going to attract or anybody sending that?

Did you think Hinde was the best for middle age dating?

Yeah, I thought it was quite good because there's a little bit of a character to it.

It was less about the sex, which I think that Tinder to me implies casual hookups.

So I was very clear about the fact I didn't want any casual hookups at all.

It didn't stop people trying, but at least I had I had stated it, and you can choose different prompts and interesting things.

And I think I liked Mikes because he had He said he loved the ocean.

There was a photo of his silly, little fluffy, stubby dog running on the beach, and I thought that's pretty cute, and I knew he had the kids.

He found I swiped I don't know left right, whatever it is on him swipe right, and when he saw my profile come up, one of his workers came into his office and he panicked and he shut down the thing and he lost my Oh he lost my profile, but he had read my series on dating over fifty in the Herald.

That's why he actually joined the dating apps in the first place, so he couldn't believe it's so durable.

Later I had popped up and then he accidentally deleted me.

So he sends an email to my boss, owing, you know, slightly storkery behavior, but blah blah blah blah blah.

Anyway, he said, I've lost you on Hinge, but this is what I would have written if I had been on Hinge.

And he wrote with this big long thing and said he was going to a concert the next night, James Taylor.

And I said, all lucky.

You've never seen James Taylor.

Wouldn't mind seeing him.

And we went.

Actually got a spare ticket, supposed to take my sister, but you know, too bad to her if you want to come.

And I thought, you know, a concert's kind of safe.

There's security guards around, you don't even have to talk much of its disastrous And I said, okay, so we'll meet outside Spark Arena.

You know what I look like?

How do I know what you look like?

And he goes, oh, it's easy.

I'm six foot two, bold and built like a brick shit house, every woman's dream.

And I thought he's funny.

I like that, And that was that was that bad?

That was that we were Yeah, we our second date, we went to a gin festival and we got asked by these two young girls how long we've been married.

When they found out it was our second date, they asked to be bridesmaids.

We've reconnected with them now we're engaged.

They actually, you're very keen to be our bridesmaids.

Quite funny.

So yeah, you mentioned, sorry, you mentioned it was important to if you're going to go on these sites to be ready for a relationship.

How do you actually know if you are ready to meet someone else?

Well, I think you have to dip your toe in the water.

And I think I think it's okay to have something casual as well.

Like when I'm talking about a relationship, I'm talking about a committed, monogamous relationship.

But I do think it's okay to go out for a coffee with somebody, maybe see them again in a couple of weeks, but maybe see some other people as well, you know, and see if you're not going to decide from well maybe I did, but from one meeting that this is going, that this is your person, but.

Yeah, you can take small steps just to get back into data.

Another piece of advice i'd give if you're doing the dating thing after doing dinners and drinks and whatever, coffee on a Sunday morning.

I was going to ask you on a Sunday morning because then if it's going well, you can seg into lunch.

If it's not, you've got a lunch date and you've got to go.

No alcohol involved means no, you know your sensors are going to be spidery sharp, And yeah, I think it's for me.

It worked out really well because I would know within a half an hour and then it's sort of going, it was nice to meet you, and blah blah, and off we'd go.

That's really useful advice.

That was my quest.

Next question is going to be what do you suggest for that first meeting people.

They're quite often going and they meet for cocktails or something, or they'll meet for dinner.

And there's no way if you know almost immediately that this is not going to be a person for you, that you want to sit through a dinner that awkward thing of who pays?

Because I always want to go halves.

I don't want anyone to coffee.

I don't care.

You can buy me a coffee, that's fine, but I don't want to go for dinner and drinks and have you pay and then you know, walk me to my car.

No thanks, So how do you do start dealing with that when people want to walk you to your car?

Owner?

Well, actually, after this concert, mike' said let me give you a lift home because I had ubered in so I could have a Dutch carriage glass of wine or two.

And he lived in completely the opposite direction.

I'm over on the shore and it was like, is it a.

White panel van?

And he said no, and I said okay, then well and then we got to his car and it was a he doesn't have it anymore.

It was a Porsche.

And I just cracked up and said, you were such a middle aged cliche.

It was bloody uncomfortable.

But he gave me a ride home and was very polite.

There was no He was just the thing I probably loved about him most from his profile that I should have mentioned before.

He's the youngest of five four older sisters.

Oh brilliant.

So they have women yet you go lee?

He has been brought up by a whole host dwell and he respects women and he gets women.

But you know what comes through to me, he sounds authentic.

Oh.

Absolutely, absolutely the most supportive man I've ever met.

He's a solutions guy.

He can't bear a situation that he can't fix, So that can be annoying because sometimes you know you don't necessarily want it fixed.

But I love that he just wants to solve everything for everybody.

Lorna feel free to answer this question as much or as little as you like.

But obviously the second cancer diagnosis.

Was this all taking place kind of around the time that you met Mike.

Oh no, no, that it all happened well before.

So when I met Mike, it was behind me.

I'd had my ovaries and filopian tubes out because I had the brack of two gene.

I had just two sort of small scars, so I was through the treatment part.

But when one of the first things I told him when we met was that I'd gone through breast cancer twice, that I had the gene, and that some stage soon my own collogist was leaning on me that I needed to have the double mistick to me, so I said of that, you know, freaks you out a little bit, that's fine, but just putting out there now, and he was absolutely fine with it.

His sisters had breast cancer and his mother's had breast cancer as well, so neither of them to a serious degree.

But he he got it, and you know it doesn't bother him.

He's just been there every step of the way with me as I go through the whole decision now because one of my breast reconstructions didn't work, so now I go do I stay at Uniboo my whole life And I keep asking him what he thinks, and he's just like, whatever makes you happy.

I love you.

The way you are.

The way you are, wasn't that gorgeous?

Yeah?

What a story of hope.

But it's a story of hope.

They are out there, They are out there.

He was a he was in a very unhappy marriage for a very long time.

He's such a great guy.

He's stuck in there.

But eventually it became too much, and then there he was.

I didn't think it was possible to meet someone so fabulous, you know, in their fifties, who wasn't cynical, Who wasn't you know.

It's funny the apps, isn't it?

Because I haven't really looked at them other than looking at my own kids' profiles on them.

And you know, my big push with him is you better be yourself because sooner related you're going to meet people and you're going to find out.

Yeah.

Absolutely, and helean hear people though, Yeah, the photos are old or they're blurry, or they've got filters on.

Just what they think is going to happen when you meet I don't know.

Oh and some of the guys I met, they were talking about women lying about their ages.

One guy I met up with a woman and she said she was forty five and she turned out to be sixty five.

Like that'sbstential a year or two off.

Just me more.

I think she thought she looked pretty vat As soon as she walked in, he was like, Okay, this is the mum with her daughter like that.

You never point you.

Never like saw that who was coming and took an exit.

No, No, I would never do that.

I would never do that.

But and there wasn't any really painful coffee dates.

They're all quite pleasant, you know.

I met one guy who was absolutely fascinating.

He traveled the world.

Both of us said afterwards, that was nice, but we won't go any further.

But but it was just really interesting to meet them.

I mean, I'm a curious kind of person anyway.

I would imagine if you're a little bit more introverted, that would actually be quite difficult to get up the nerve to go and talk to someone knew and then to kind of go, well, I'm never seeing them again.

But for me, I didn't mind that.

So if somebody is a little bit apprehensive about dating after a separation or divorce, maybe middle age, you've given us some great advice anything else, I'd say.

To them, just that, probably repeating myself, but that a you are enough.

I mean, I was actually pretty happy on my own.

I was on my own for three years before I met Mike, and I was pretty happy in that space.

But I'm happier now.

I am happier now.

My dad always says to me, he's been married to mum for sixty five years.

He always says, we were never meant to be alone.

And I think there's something in that.

There's no shame in being by yourself, and some people very happy by themselves, and I think that's because they don't want to compromise.

But I think it's possible to be in a relationship to not have to compromise on who you are, And we're going to make compromises to a certain degree, but not on who you are and have a wonderful, wonderful life together because you know, it's the living and hopefully it's going to be a long one.

Definitely.

I mean, and you said at the very beginning, you know that sounds terrible or whatever.

I couldn't think of a better guest to have had to have had somebody who's been through it at thirty five with two young kids to tell us that experience.

We would have had to have two different women.

Then wouldn't have been It would have been annoying all the stories open to us.

And then to have the over fifty experience and this dating experience up in midlife.

I think that's been fantastic to learn about.

So when's the wedding?

Ah?

Yeah, this is a work in progress because we both our youngest children are still at school and we live in completely different parts of Auckland, so we live together sort of halftime at the moment.

But I don't want to get married till we can live together full time and get our own place.

So we're probably looking about eighteen months away, and.

That's always good to have something to look forward to.

It always good to have something.

Well, we did get engaged after six months, so I feel like, you know, it's okay to wait a little while.

Oh Laurna, thank you so much for sharing.

I really really appreciate it.

So lovely to see you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

How fabulous is Lorna.

I just think he's an inspiration, honestly, so perky, beautiful, just happy, and for what she's been through, it's just quite incredible.

But I think that that's one of the reasons why we wanted to talk to her, because yes, it's difficult, Yes it takes an emotional toll, Yes it can have a financial toll on you as well.

But if you know, if you're making the decision for the right reason, then there is life after separation and divorce.

And that's what we wanted to get across today, didn't we.

You know?

God?

Yeah, And I loved her talking about dating and I think that Sunday the Sunday Coffee is the best advice that she gave.

One of the good pieces of advice that she gave us.

It's a really good sort of way to if you're a little bit hesitant or tentative, or you're struggling to kind of work out how to meet someone.

That's a really nice approach.

Oh yeah, and if they're like, oh no, no, Sunday coffee Saturday night, well it.

Might be one of those red flags.

What was it, the burning haystack approach?

You're more research on that, Yeah, something on that which I can't talk about.

Dating all day long.

I found it fascinating, but I guess you know.

The takeaway is, like you say, you know, of course it's daunting.

You don't leave a marriage easily, and but there's a pathway through, and a well trod pathway through actually, and dating as almost says, it doesn't need to be for the next relationship.

It can be just meeting people, meeting interesting people, going out and having that coffee or maybe a meal, and it might go somewhere, it might not, but if you take that expectation off it.

My friend had a saying for that person that you see straight after a serious relationship was called the greasy pancake.

What it basically means they soap up all the crap from the last because when you put the first pancake in and you're not gonna eat it, you throw out.

It's terrible, but it kind of makes sense.

I've never heard that.

Oh really, no, I'm sure there's a theory.

About the greasy, but I just thought it was a rebound.

A crazy pancake.

Oh, I love it.

No, lots of great advice there from Lorna.

Hey, he had a joyful week.

Anything joyful happening in your week this week?

And then good and positive?

Look, you know sometimes work can be you know, works work right, it's there for your nine to five kind of thing.

I did something slightly different.

I had to attend an expo over a weekend.

God, I haven't done that for a really long time, and I didn't really wasn't filled with excitement about it.

But I got to be around babies and toddler's again for a while and pregnant woman and I got a lot for it.

And I also had to work because we can work in silos at the university sometimes and so I had to work alongside my colleagues that I never really see, and I got to know them and I felt like I was actually part of the department, so there would be my takeaway.

I got something actually out of my my normal job.

That's good.

Yeah, yeah, which I mean it's not that it doesn't, but not every day, right, So we're outside of my comfort zone and enjoyed it.

Good about you, Francesca.

Well, this week I thought I would try microdosing joy, you know, so like just adding little tiny snacks, little joy snacks into my day.

With you.

It was just hard work and the week kind.

Of went to shit.

And the heap hump broke and that needs to be replaced, a car broke that needs to be fixed, a blind broke, my son mister his flight back from university that cost another three hundred dollars to get him home, even whether we really needed to come home or not.

And so actually it just became really hard work trying to microdose joy, and I thought I'll give it a waste.

For a week, I did wonder whether maybe I should have been microdosing psychedelics, but I couldn't get my hands on any.

So I just I've just I've done an Oliver Berkman and I've just gone I'm just going to solve problem after I'm just gonna accept the problem and tackle each as it comes, and next week we'll look for some more joy.

Oh bless you look.

Sometimes it is a little bit.

You just have weeks like that, don't you.

I'm sure our listeners will will relate to that.

Thanks for joining us on our new Zealand Herald podcast series, The Little Things.

We hope you share this podcast with the women in your life so that we, you know, all know there's a little bit of hope out there, just in case you get really fed up with your husband and those socks.

And those socks.

Yeah.

You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and for more episodes from us on other topics, head to zid herold dot co dot

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