Hi, I'm Francisca Rudkin and I'm Louise Arii.

Welcome to season five of our New Zealand Herald podcast The Little Things.

Good to have you with us, Yes, and this podcast we're joined by experts in their field to talk about the little things you need to know to improve all areas.

Of your life.

There's lots of information and confusion out there.

We're going to cut through that to bring you some clarities you can make your own well informed decisions on.

Well begin Okay, So if you are a long time listener, you probably know we love to talk, run, go on a ventures, and spend time with our families.

And we've enjoyed a glass of wine or two over the years, occasional bottle, like many people, depending on what's going on in our lives, what agent stage were at, we've fluctuated between a glass of wine a night.

You remember the Toddly years, it was very much a glass of wine at night or not drinking at all.

And if you are a long time listener you will you'll remember lose famous one hundred alcohol Free Days, which was seventy two.

I edited them.

Somebody said life's too short and I just oh yeah, okay, one little prompt, but anyway.

You were doing so well.

But I think we have had different we have drunk, and I'm sure that everyone's the same.

Over the years, we've sort of had these passions.

You know, when you're in your twenties, were was almost like a bit of a badge of honor, wasn't it to turn up to work and struggle through the day with a hangover after a great night.

And then you sort of hit your thirties and you start, you know, getting pregnant and having babies and breastfeeding, and you don't drink for a little while there, and then all of a sudden, you find yourself with a bunch of toddlers, go what have I done?

And you know, your mother's little helper kicks in at five o'clock each night, and you find yourself sort of back on the booze.

And then I think I've just sort of fluctuated over the years, depending on whether I'm training for something, or what's happening, or how how well and happy the children are.

Like, there's all sorts of things that impact you're drinking habits.

And I think you probably just described the continuum that a lot of people will relate to that, like I'm a bit of a legend and my teens and twenties and out there meeting people and even corporate if you were in you know, I worked for a big corporation and alcohol was very much part of the lifestyle, you know, at conferences and things like that.

Got to conferences now and you know, you have a glass of winy.

I've talked it all bloody day.

I just need to leave.

Yeah, So it's all.

It's all got very much more sensible.

But but I would say there are times that I'm not sensible.

I'm not doing the right thing by my body.

Now, I think you and I have kind of mirrored each other, and we have been trying to get to a point where we've kind of got a nice balance.

We're able to enjoy a glass of wine or two and things but not have it impact our lives.

But the one thing that now now was sort of ensconced in the glory years also known as middle age, I'm finding that the consequences of alcohol hitting home a lot more.

You know, I'm noticing that alcohol really isn't my friend in pyraimenopause.

And this has been explained to us by more than one kids, But as you know, take some while to get through to me.

And and I'm training for something at the moment, and it is and I don't have that much time to do it in the evenings and the d days well they're getting nice and longer now, but they were sitting a very dark through the winter, and the only time I could fit things and was in the morning.

And if I drank the night before, it would actually just make me go I don't really want to get up.

It's not that it defeatd my performance.

I didn't have one.

I literally just be like, no, I'm not getting out of bed this morning.

So not because it wasn't a hangover or anything like that, but those one or two glasses were making having an impact on how I've slept overnight.

Have you ever worried about your drinking?

Sorry, that's a bit of a heart this question.

I definitely have had moments where I've gone, oh, okay, yeah, I'm getting tired and I'm probably not well the one hundred days as well as I Yeah, I didn't do that hundred days for nothing.

I with seventy five days.

What if it was just shits and giggles.

Yeah, I did it because I was worried about my drinking, yes, and yes I do.

I do worry that I can't boody just go to a social occasion like I don't go out that much.

And then we still get excited.

And I tell you, my family's all in christ and the first night down there, every single time, I will wake up the next day not feeling very well and I'm and we'll all go, oh, we all got a bit excited, didn't we to be back together again?

So and as you know, I go down and to see the family quite frequently, so that's got to be knocked on the head.

And it just makes me too bloody tired, especially drinking two or three nights in a row, absolutely wrecked.

And we've got some lovely family occasions coming up at twenty first and a wedding, you know, and I want to be there for it.

So yeah, I want to get you to a bit more mindful about the drinking.

That's the last way of putting it.

Yeah, I think I feel like I'm growing up a little bit as well when I'm getting there.

But look, we are going to talk about the reality of alcohol day.

But in the same way that we talk about everything.

So this is inn a lecture.

We're not going to take away a simple pleasure for you know, from.

You and tell you how to live your life.

We're just going to look at the impact alcohol has on us, and we're going to look at how we consider safety and corporate it into our lives, or how you might want to rethink your relationship with alcohol and how you'd go about that.

So today we're joined by Reed George ree As, a Master Health coach who specializes a mental fitness at Alcohol moderation and addictions who work combines compassion with science, helping people understand the physiology behind how alcohol affects the brain, body and overall well being.

Resupports people to rethink their relationship with alcohol in a way that's practical, evidence based, and free of judgment.

She's here to help us today to unpack the tricky truths about alcohol and the role it plays in our lives.

Re welcome, Thank you lovely to be here.

Good to have you with us.

I'm going to start off by saying, I'm going to be really honest.

I didn't really want to have to have this conversation because I think there's going to be a few home truths that I know, but I just didn't want reiterated.

But the more I.

Kind of started thinking about it, and I love your very positive approach to this topic, I just got quite excited about today.

Yeah.

I think we both said very early on in the Little Things, we're not going to do an alcohol if are.

I think we both read we rarely should do an alcohol episode, but we'll leave it.

Well, but we'll leave it for now.

So here we are.

So you know, do you think I guess the first thing is honesty around alcohol and our embibment of alcohol.

Do you think that most people are honest about it?

No, short answer.

No.

Interesting that you use the word should, Frantisca, because she'd know.

As a health coach, I look out for language, and I think we often think we should do certain things, and especially in this area, I think there's too One is it's honestly with yourself, and the other one is honesty with society and you know, maybe your GP if you're talking about it.

So no, I think people find it really hard to be honest with themselves about where alcohol sits.

And that's what I call cognitive dissonance.

Sometimes as people really know what's going on, but they have trouble being honest about what they want to do about.

So when you go to your GP and they ask you your weekly and even getting honest about what a poor is, right, Ah, yes, because you know I always say to my husband, that is just by the way, that's your two glasses in that one poor.

And you know then I proceed to pour my own wife.

Yeah, so you didn't know.

I definitely had made my Paul smaller.

But yeah, how how dishonest are we being at the GP?

If they ask us, do you know.

Across the board, I'd have to say we are being quite dishonest at the GP.

But the GPS know that I'll always add more mentally to whatever it's telling.

Usually yeah, and they know what they're looking out for because metabolically, your body won't lie.

So you may say you're having a set a mount, but if you have any tests or car asol or go gos or like tests, it's going to tell the truth gut tests, so you can't lie.

You can't lie.

Oh no, I think you're hopes that you're right, And I'm pretty sure my doctor just goes mm hmm.

What they're waiting for, though, is for someone to say, I've got a problem, can you help me?

Right?

They're actually waiting for someone to ask, unless it's at the stage where it needs to be said.

But most of us don't think we've got a problem right until we really have a problem.

Yes, And that's where we said, as health coaches, very much mild to moderate and proactive preventative in the space is why not address things when they're just in the mild to moderate space rather than waiting and waiting and waiting.

But it's hard.

In season one, I think it was the little things Nicky Pizant.

Said to us.

Well.

She told us that alcohol is not a perimenopause or menopause or woman's friend.

And it's taken me a while to grasp this, but I do feel the impact of alcohol more.

Why is that our whole physiology changes around menopause, Hormones change, metabolism slows down.

So many things are affected anyway in perimenopause and menopause, and alcohol just doesn't serve us.

It's not saying to not have any, but sometimes the amount that we were possibly having beforehand we can't tolerate as well.

So explain that So in terms of is it our liver, what part of our body is rejecting or not helping us metabolize alcohol like we could when we were younger.

Physiologically, it's actually everything.

But the liver can only detox at a certain rate, so one standard drink per hour, which is where we get ours standard drinks from, and you can't speed that rate up.

So there's lots of other things going on.

The liver is trying to do when it comes to digestion and food and all sorts of things, and if we overload it with alcohol, it just can't cope, and then the gut backs up, the gut biomes affected, hormones are all over the show.

Alcohol can increase estrogen, which we know is linked to other things.

So yeah, it's just a cascade.

Because for me, it's more it's the way my brain feels the next day.

It's the way I think, It's the way I feel.

It's the grumpiness, it's the sleep.

It's you know, slightly different to like I can still get up and do my exercise, Like physically I feel like I can kind of.

It doesn't hold me back, but there's just it's just leaves.

It's a little cloud, yeah, a little, a little fuzziness, and the sleep like I know that a lot of menopause, a woman will wake up through the night anyway, But it's the it's the sort of overthinking I think absolutely.

I mean sure, I'm sure they are a woman who are overthinking a lot of us are overthinking all the time anyway, but alcohol just makes that.

It's what do they call it the two am dreads or whatever it is.

Yeah, yeah, anyone that's had the two or three am dreads knows exactly what we're talking about.

What was I so weird about that?

For?

But yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So alcohol will reduce our really good quality deep sleep.

So even though we might go to sleep faster after a couple of drinks, we actually don't recover well and that can affect our mood and clarity, concentration, emotional regulation, all the things the next day.

So it's just and it's a compound effect as well.

If you're doing it night after night and you're not getting great sleep, then mood, mental health, oh so many things are affected.

Yeah, that's a really good point you bring up there about the compound effect.

So you might say, but I'm only having one or two glasses a night.

But if you're having them every night, yeah, then it is compounding.

And then if you don't give yourself a decent break kind of, that's when it all falls in a bit, doesn't it.

Yeah.

And often there's lots of things going on.

We think about our careers at the stage in our lives, and maybe teenage children, elderly parents.

We've got a lot going on, and it just reduces our ability to cope with all of that.

Anyway, I know when I have alcohol free days, and I do have more than I used to, there's a little part of me that feels like I'm on holiday.

Is that a strange analogy?

I don't know.

It's like I'm free from something, and then I can quite often go back into my old patterns.

See, I feel like I'm on holiday when I drink.

Oh, because most of the time I'm trying.

Not to drink.

That's interesting.

There's a lightness about me that I know is present when i'm But then again, then something will happen, is either good or bad, And a wine or is my go to.

Yeah, And that's a really good point.

Love.

It's often why we drink or what we're using it for.

And that's one of the first places I'll start with clients is if they're curious about the role alcohol is playing in their lives.

When does it tend to show up?

You know?

Is it when things are great and you're celebrating.

Is it when things are challenging and you feel like a wine at five o'clock is a treat?

If so, what other things could you use in that space?

So it's one thing to say, let's be curious about our drinking and maybe reduce the alcohol.

The next stage is actually, what are we going to do instead?

You know, what are we going to put in there?

I know you guys are runners, so exercise or other things that people might find that actually gives them that same feeling of treat at the end of the day.

So you're not feeling any depriving yourself, you're actually doing what your body needs.

Can I ask without you obviously giving away any you know, patients or any any client information things, but what are kind of the common reasons that people will say to you when when they really when they work out their why why they drink?

Stress, unhappiness, worry, anxiety.

So they're not the happy ones, They're not the happy triggers are.

They generally know, but the irony is that alcohol will make all of that worse.

I know, we know this irony.

This is the cognitive dissonance that we see and do.

A lot of the.

People who come to you do kind of know that, but they just can't get from A to B.

They just can't put it all together.

Yes, so we talk about the gap between the knowing and the doing.

Most of us know the no the knowledge these days, and knowledge is that our fingertips these days.

But what we see is the gap between knowing and doing is the hard part.

That's where behavior change really sits.

And that's where we sit as health coaches to help people bridge that gap.

So they know the no, but actually, let's help you put it into practice.

You know, do they do?

And I think that's really an interesting analogy if I might say that the sometimes the alcohol bridges the gap between the hum drum of life and bedtime and the next day.

Do you know what I mean?

It's like, Ah, I have to cook the dinner again for the fourth time.

If I'm cooking dinner again for the fourth time this week, the least I can do is give myself a we treat whilst I'm doing it.

And what little trick that I've used was if no one is around, because no one is tended around when the dinner's ready, but they're not talking to me while I'm making it.

I started filling the gap instead of having the wine with putting watching something on Netflix whilst I'm cooking, or you know, something like that.

But it's sometimes it's like, well, why am I not okay?

Just alone with my thoughts?

Absolutely there we go.

We're all interested to what do people do before they had my bile devices to fill your time up?

But I do exactly the same.

If I can get to a suit now, if I can get two dinner time, then I won't pull myself a glass of wine.

Interestingly, so I try not to drink during the week.

I try and drink maybe one or two once or twice a week, or look at this thing's happening.

I don't, you know, I don't if there's a celebration or a booth day or something like that, I treat myself.

I don't.

It's not a strict rule, but just in the back of my mind that's what I try and do.

And I know that I'm the same as Lou.

I'm often at home on my own preparing the meal.

I to do that, I'll put something on the iPad to watch to entertain me while I'm doing it.

But if I can get through to actually sitting down at the table without pouring that glass of wine, then I'm fine.

I don't need anything.

Is that typical?

There's so common all the time.

If you can get through to that sort of time, generally you can do it, and then.

You wonder why you ever felt like that in the first place.

These are all very normal and common thoughts, right, this is what many people think.

But what I sometimes do is I will have an alcohol free drink.

So I'll have one of those mocktails in a can that you can get from the supermarket and things now.

And I kind of am aware that I'm probably just replacing, you know, one bad calori with another bad calorie.

But it gets me through.

Yeah, we would call that harm reduction, right in a way?

Is that?

Yes, it will get you through, and it's just a matter of saying, well, actually, if you don't want the alcohol, there's so many good alcohol free alternatives out there now that doing something like that is a step in the right direction.

You're still going to have a drink.

You still feel like it's a treat, but it just doesn't have the alcohol in it.

In fact, at the beginning of twenty and twenty, I set myself in EXPI I meant to have an alcohol for a year as I was getting into health coaching and behavior change, to see what it was like.

We had no idea that COVID was going to hit, but that was the year that I had said I'd like to go alcohol free for three hundred and sixty five days.

You couldn't face a better challenge, right, exactly.

Yeah, and I'm constantly with the kids.

Yeah, one whole year, and then I went for another six months.

So now I've completely receipt my relationship with alcohol, and it was through the toughest time I could possibly imagine.

But I wanted to know what it was like for someone who really wanted to make a change to a habit.

That made a difference.

If somebody does want to reset their relationship with alcohol, how long does it take?

Does it take a year and a half.

I don't think you can put a number on it for everyone.

It's quite different depending on circumstance.

But when you look at a dopamine detox we see a lot about dopamine detoxes these days.

Thirty days is generally a good start, and we talk about it being an experiment, so it's not lifelong necessarily.

When you start, it's just let's be curious about what alcohol, what life is like for thirty days without alcohol in it, and then at the end of that time you can have a really deep think about what you want to do moving forward.

Yeah.

I mean a lot of people do drive July every single year, and I remember doing it once and going, oh god, I cannot wait for the first of August.

Cannot And actually, when I got to the first of August unless there was something on, there was absolutely no reason.

Because the it's about the reason for me anyway, is there a reason for this?

And I do think that it's probably partly cultural.

We do tend to well, let's not pretend alcohol's involved in every celebration, even little kid's birthday parties.

I used to think, well, I better get a few bottles of wine, and because when people come to pick up their cat, I need to offer them a glass of wine.

What whin did they at the start?

Like we shouldn't eve that was silly.

Really, that's just having small children and the need to reading class of social Please stay, I've just been here with you know, ten five year olds for three hours.

You know.

Yeah, I need a drink.

Stay and talk to me.

The one thing about that happening in COVID which would have been good, because this is something I've found when I've stopped drinking at times, is that you don't have to worry about having to go out and socialize and pretend to be all, you know, bright and ugly.

Yeah, because I find if I'm the non drinker, sometimes I'll have a great time and you're driving home from the event and you go, I've got a buzz.

I shouldn't have a buzz.

I haven't been drinking, you know, But it's the buzz of actually just being able to drive yourself you an't home.

But I did find myself over that you know, one hundred days, which turned out to only be seventy five.

But I did find myself less sociable because I found eventually I just found it a bit boring being around people who were drinking.

It's a really good point, and I'm still quite social, but I will now eject from a social situation at nine o'clock quite happily.

I'll go for an hour, maybe have a drink, maybe not.

But I don't have that same foma I used to have.

If I'm not drinking, or if I go home early, I when to miss out.

I actually know for me that I would stay later.

Then i'd normally stay if I was drinking, and then I wouldn't feel great the next day.

So I just reset that and said, well, actually maybe I might go out for an hour and a half kind of girl yeah, you know, like and that's my max and that's what's good for me.

Let's normalize that, shall we?

Yeah?

Or we're fun.

We've been experimenting, but this year, haven't we?

And we've sort of found the Sunday Sunday meet up at four thirty or five.

Now, no one well I don't know, some people might, but no one's going to get absolutely hammered on it on a Sunday at four thirty or five o'clock.

And you can have a nice social hour and a half with someone over one glass of wine and have a proper catch up.

And I'd rather spend those calories on the fries.

There's a really great book called Lost Connections by Johann Hari, and in it he states, you know, puts forward that maybe the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection and that's what we're all looking for.

I saw that on your website, and I've read parts of that book from your heart, and I've follow on Instagram, and that is gosh, that's that's an incredible You have to think about it a bit because you're like, is that true?

But it is.

Yeah, that's what we're missing.

And that's often when we're standing at the kitchen bench with young kids cooking dinners, we're craving connection.

So whether it's connection to ourselves, connection to friends or others, or passion and purpose.

You know, often addiction can creep up on people.

And I'm not saying everyone's addictive, but you know, I can creep up because we're lacking connection.

So when you find the connection again, So if you're sitting around on a Sunday with one bottle of wine, three friends having a great time, you might not need the same amount of alcohol because you actually getting the connection that you're looking for.

Just going back to what Lou was talking about, and going out and socializing, and you mentioned that you've just sort of come to the conclusion that you socialize a little bit differently now and things, but there is still pressure.

And over the years I've had, you know, I used to have sort of two months off during the year where I'd stop drinking and going out and people trying to force alcohol on you.

It did get quite tiring.

You should be able to go no, no, I'm fine, thanks, I'm just going to grab this or I've brought this, or I've got that.

I think it's getting better.

I think we are better at going Oh great, what can I get you?

And I always make sure now that I've got some lovely other option, non alcoholic options that I can offer people.

But what sort of tips do you give people who want to make a change and who feel that pressure and just want to know a good way of getting around that when it comes to drinking and socializing.

Yeah, we do talk about this a lot with people if they are looking at how they could approach social situations and not drink.

And it's what you mentioned before, Low, it's how would you have an exit plan or an exit strategy?

So it's often if you drive there and you've got your own keys, then you've got a way of leaving when you'd like to leave, it's enlisting the help of a good friend or a buddy or a colleague that's going to be there too, And that's your accountability.

Buddy.

Is you know, I'd really like to have a great night tonight, but possibly not drink.

Can I come to you if I'm feeling like a I would like to get a drink or be a need to leave so that somebody else is there that you can just say, hey, let's go having a couple of sentences in your back pocket, like I used to say, Oh, you know, like alcohol night, we're just having a we break, or you know, just something that you've got prepared so that if someone does start to push a little bit, you can bring humor into it or lightness so it's not really heavy, but you've got something you've prepared to say so that you know you can speak up.

Yeah, that's a really good point, because I think people do immediately well not I think you were right that it was getting better, but there was a certain age when we're in a much more fertile era that people would just assume you were pregnant, which is a terrible assumption to make because of course you might just you know, be not drinking.

And that's the funny thing when the motivation's there, Like I've had three children, didn't even cross my mind to have a drink, you know, I never craved it.

You're pregnant, you can't, and then your breastfeeding, so you don't really either.

And so there have been large ways of time and maybe like you say, that's that.

Well, you've got a really important job to do, and you've got a connection with this fetus, you know, and you just can quite easily say no.

And then when they come out and they're driving you crazy, you're craving.

Yeah, And you know, the idea of willpower comes into it a lot that white knuckling it through.

It's really hard sometimes to white knuckle it through and just not drink.

So that's where all the other strategies and skills can come in, you know, maybe talking to other people that have successfully navigated it, having some ideas we just talked about in your back pocket for social situations so that you have other strategies to ride the wave.

We talk about urge surfing, just to surf the urge for a little while, because, like you say, it will pass, you know, you get to certain point in the evening and maybe it's passed.

Yes, And that's that mindful thing, isn't it.

I just mindfulness is not just to make you is not designed just to make you feel this ethereal being.

It's actually to accept feelings exist and live with them, yea, and that they will pass and that they will pass.

Yeah, yeah, interesting.

I Actually there's a gin bar in Auckland at the top of Queen Street, the Chamberlain, I think it's called, And before COVID hit in twenty twenty, it was my ex husband and is anniversary, so he wanted to try the gin bar.

We wanted to try it, and I rang ahead and I explained that I wasn't drinking, but that I didn't want to sit there in February twenty twenty and have like a lemonade or you know something, And so did they have any alcohol free gin alternatives?

And they did, and the manager said, when you guys arrived, just tell us and we'll make you an alcohol free cocktail that looks exactly the same and everyone else, you know, so you can feel like no one really knows so little.

Strategies like that can help.

Yeah, planning your head preparing.

You're listening to the little things.

And our guest on the podcast today is master health coach read George.

We're talking about how alcohol affects our well being and how we can rethink our relationship with alcohol.

We'll be back shortly after this break red.

We spoke a little bit at the beginning of the podcast about the impact that alcohol has on perimenopause and menopause or women, but it actually has an impact on all of us and all times in our life.

Maybe we could just you know, we know so much more about alcohol.

There's been so much more research done.

Could we just touch on what it does impact what drinking, the impact it has on our bodies, our brains, It impacts everything, doesn't.

It absolutely does.

As a mental health coach, which was my niche for a long time, I see the impact of alcohol on our mood is huge.

So anxiety is a very real thing.

That feeling of anxiety the next day and the compound effect of alcohol on our mood.

Then also with the brain, our ability to concentrate, clarity, focus, all of those things are really related physiologically, is it upping risks of.

Other diseases?

Yeah, I'm moving more into the metabolic health space now, and it does increase the chances of a lot of metabolic diseases, chronic diseases, of which neurodegeneration is a massive one.

So looking after the health of our brains.

Alcohol's not serving us when it comes to mental mental health and brains.

Why do we get a headache?

I've heard various things.

So I've heard that it was that the excess that the liver can't process turns into something and gives you the headache?

Is it or is it simplest dehydration?

Probably a combination of both, right, Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I think if I wake up with a headache, I used will care take a couple on your frind If I wake up with a headache, Now I feel a little bit embarrassed about myself because I'm like, I'm like, you bloody knew that and you did it anyway, and now, poor head.

I think I don't know where the menopause and having to think about it all the funny symptoms of menopause makes you be more in your body and more sympathetic to your own body.

Maybe it does I don't know.

For me, maybe it has because I feel more like a whole person and so I feel like I'm sorry.

But I didn't used to feel like that.

So that's I guess that's a good thing.

Yeah, that's you, you know, your whole self compassion piece too.

I think we get better at that as we get older as well.

Also, no one's going to make my day worse.

Yep, and read.

There's you know, we've made some pretty substantial connections between alcohol and cancer and various cancers, haven't we.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

I think there's seven cancers that alcohol has been shown to increase the risk.

Of the main ones for women is breast cancer because alcohol can increase the production of estrogen, which we know is linked to breast cancer.

And then all the cancers are the mouth and throat and bowel cancer.

That's crazy.

I did read about the mouth and throat and that's obviously the same for what ever gender you are.

It's crazy that such a carcinogen is so so acceptable and free.

Yeah, like we I mean, when we didn't know about cigarettes.

Obviously, cigarettes were touted as a way to relax, and then we knew and then for a large proportion of the population.

We were able to go, oh, well, that's just not something I've ever going to do.

Yeah, if we ever have a conversation on news talks would be our lovely listeners.

If you ever have a talk about conversation and talking about cannabis, people just run and just go alcohol.

You know that to them is the beginning and the end of their argument.

We have legalized this this product, and you know, people take it freely and willingly, and we sort of tell people what the consequences are, but maybe not clearly enough.

You know, it's interesting, Hey, does alcohol affect men and women differently?

It can, Like anything with metabolism, it's quite different from men and women.

And also size of the body when you think about it.

Just you know, bigger people have more water.

They can often drink more than smaller.

Because there's this thing about lu saying, oh, when I wait with a headache, water is that I was wondering.

Sometimes you have two drinks and you go, gosh, I feel relatedly, and then other times you get through a bottle and you go, well, it hasn't touched the Yeah, And I'm kind of like I have two nice little glasses and I'm sitting here going okay, yeah, that's I think.

I'm on I follow a few this soberish mum and something else on Instagram with some other woman.

And she's really curious because she said, she said exactly that.

She said, here's a tip for people who want to cut down their alcohol.

Have two standard drinks over a you know, a reasonable amount of time, and stop there and think about if you've got a little bit of a buzz on.

If you've got a little bit of a buzz on, more alcohol is going to ruin it.

So stop right there.

I was like, Wow, that is so bloody sensible.

Easier said than done, though right.

The circumstances, there's got lots of great advice.

When I hear that, what I hear is the idea of data points.

So there's a really amazing woman, any Grace over in the States, and she's written a book called This Naked.

If anyone's come across it, and if someone's doing a thirty day alcohol experiment trying to reduce alcohol or remove it, then if they do happen to drink, we call it a data point.

It's just data.

There's no judgment.

Let's be curious about that.

Rather than you know, all the other things, and so those data points.

If you have two drinks one night, we look at the data what was leading up to that, you know, what happened earlier in the day, what did you eat, what's your emotional regulation like, what's your stress sybils like?

And then if someone has a bottle, we do the same thing.

And so you can often look back and say, on certain days when I've been pushed to the nth degree, really stressed, worried, whatever, the two drinks are not even going to touch the site, you know, Like, it can be quite insightful if you look back and say, what was leading.

Up too, okay, because I really, oh, I haven't I haven't eaten enough today.

But then sometimes go yeah I have, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It can just effect us in different ways, depending on so many things.

I think that's what's complex.

You mentioned any Grace there, and I had to immediately quickly google her because The Alco Whole Experiment is a book that she wrote, and that was the first book.

I mean, this is quite a while ago, twenty eighteen it came out and it was given to me, and it was the first time someone truly explained to me addiction and why we want to drink, the psychology behind it.

I suppose of why you reach for that glass of wine each night.

It made you.

Sort of understand, It made me understand sort of it in a big context.

I suppose that was a really Yeah.

We use it a lot with clients.

And her other one, This Naked Mind, is really good too, because I think when people want to make a change to their relationship to alcohol, you do need to upscale about the knowledge to really be informed about why you're making the change that you're making.

I think if people don't know, it's really hard to sustain that behavior change.

So her books are great for anyone who wants to start learning about the knowledge behind it.

So the person who can, who has always been able to take or leave a drink right and a tray of champagne is coming past you or winning and they go, oh, no, I'm good things.

I would you know is that luck?

Or is that is that it's a combination of things, partly genetics.

We know there is definitely a genetic component to it.

I have lived experience with that, which is part of my passion for this space, and it's like a switch.

So the genetic component can be there, but epigenetics, thatid idea of how we can change our lifestyle around it, can determine whether or not that that switches flicked.

Right, Yeah, I mean you've got to flick that switch yourself.

It can be flicked.

Yeah.

So I guess if you know that there is a tendency maybe family history, I would on the side of caution and ask people to be a little bit more aware of where it sits with them.

Yeah.

That's that's fascinating because I come from a family where my parents weren't large drinkers, but as a large broader family, alcohol was at most family events, certainly funerals yea and Irish family, and then of course there was rugby and clubrooms and all of that stuff.

And a bit like what we were talking about with another guest that they thought that that day in the future where where you'll moderate or you'll stop, or you'll change, then you get to I think menopause for me anyway of actually physiologically feeling different, going, Oh, actually that day is fast approaching.

I need to actually address this.

And I was thinking about this in relation to my children who are teenagers.

Now I know they probably don't want us to talk about this, but you know, can you be a bit and shrinker when you're young?

Can you afford to be a bin drink ever?

Short answer, no, bin drinking will have an effect on your body and your mind right.

But I have worked with people who would put themselves in that category and then they got to a point where that was affecting things.

And that's the definition of addiction is when you're doing something that has a new give effect on relationships or education or finances, but you continue to do it, and some people will get to the point where it l like this is not serving me.

I need to get some help.

Young people these days, though, I'm finding, are very aware of this, and if anything, they are coming through a little bit more self aware about where alcohol sits.

I also have teenagers.

I'm not sure if they're quite there yet, but you know, definitely twenties and early thirties, whatever generation that is.

The options of alcohol free alternatives are being taken up a lot more by them, and.

I think they're a bit more in bolding just to say too, no, I'm not doing it tonight or whatever.

You know, they can't afford it, They.

Can't afford it, and they can see the negative impacts of it, possibly when they're looking at, you know, other people in their lives and maybe choosing not to that.

I said to one of my kids the other day, Ree, who is in Canterbury and christ Church at University of Canterbury and loves to ski, to me the other day, I said, don't need alcohol ruin an amazing What something amazing you want to do the next day?

I think that.

And that's something that somebody told me, who was a runner, who said to me, I don't I'm going on this great adventure tomorrow morning, and I'm going on this great run.

I don't want alcohol to ruin that.

And it made me sort.

Of think a little bit differently about my drinking.

And I passed this song to my child, who then announced that they were perfectly capable of hitting the bush in and going skiing the next day because they're young.

And the okay, that didn't hurt, but you know they were one day.

But those Francis because loves an early morning run, right, and if I if I want company, then I've learned to just go on an early run.

And those Saturday mornings we head up to the y chakarees are great because that Friday night, I'm like, well, I do not want to get up there and feel CD when this beautiful environment and it's always Saturday night to have a drink.

Yeah.

Also a franchis grow and I socialize.

It's quite often on a Sunday because you work on a Sunday morning, and it's sort of like it's a Friday, it's your Friday.

So she's feeling peppy, you ready to have a glass of rose it but it's nice and again we shorter, sort of more quality.

I think catch ups.

And what you've both alluded to is what we work with in this space with health coaching is what really matters to you and how is this getting in the way.

So if it's the early morning runs or if it's something else, it's really important.

But you're finding alcohols getting in the way of that.

That's where you can really start to focus and say, hey, if you really want this thing tomorrow or this thing down the track, let's have a look at work.

Alcohol is maybe holding it back a little bit.

I know there's been times where I could drink nearly a bottle of wine and still get up and do that and not and it really and go and pretend to myself it wasn't.

Again, it's about this being honest with yourself.

It wasn't really affecting me.

But of course I would have done better and gone faster and enjoyed it more without it.

But just because you can doesn't mean you should.

And metabolically, if we're looking at physiology of our bodies, it just it's it's not serving us.

So, yes, you could still do the run, but think about how your muscles are getting oxygen.

And my backgrounds physiotherapy, so I always think that the body is like, actually, you could do it, but are you getting the best out of that run?

Are you more prone to injury?

Are your muscles really going to be doing what they are designed to do?

And when you're on a trail you do have to be somewhat sharp.

You don't want to something you know, it's I'm a bit of a fall around.

I was just about to say, we're hard pushed to find an event that.

Well, it's clarity and focus to isn't it.

It wasn't because I want a BUIKRL whatever.

So you might be thinking about rethinking your relationship with alcohol might not be a problem just yet, but you might be thinking about it if you if you definitely do have a problem.

Is there do we have a definition for an addict or is it just when alcohol impacting your life or the amount you drink?

How do you know if you there are working definitions of where addiction sits if it's affecting the things we mentioned before, But most people will know most people will have that gut feeling they wake up the next morning, and that's that cognitive dissonance.

So you don't have to get to like rock bottom, right, That's the thing, and that's.

Where we sit.

That's where I am so passionate.

Is I've seen people get to rock bottom.

I have lived through people very close at rock bottom.

And if we can help in that mild to moderate even mild, you know, that's where conversations can take place.

And I think it's probably where the majority of people absolute and we might in the back of our mind be going, oh, I really should address this again, you know, kicking the can down the road a bit.

Is there a I mean, I guess there's not a timeframe when it's more just waking up that morning going eat year.

I don't want this for myself.

Absolutely, And it could be as easy as having a chat with a friend, you know, just checking with a friend about it.

And it doesn't need to be anything huge to start with.

It's just maybe saying the words out loud to a trusted, confident or someone that loves you to say, hey, this is what I'm thinking.

And then if you do decide that you need some help, there's a lot of different ways you can find support out there to take the next step.

I think I have been guilty of I've definitely said it to you.

I said to you, if I can't moderate my drinking, I'm just going to stop.

I'm sure I've said that more than once.

And then yeah, I can't.

I think that's the where the reset that's got me thinking today, Actually, lou what you need as a reset?

I had it when I was ill and I was recovering and I didn't drink for ages and ages and ages.

And then I went on this fabulous holiday and you know, I just wanted to be here after a beautiful day out and the you know, yeah, and so I started again.

And I'm not saying I'm you know, absolutely piss heead, but.

Gray area drinking is a thing and gray area drinking where you're just not sure.

Sometimes you try and moderate, sometimes you try not to.

Like that actually takes more energy, And I'm not going to drink for a certain amount of time because once you've decided that, you've taken the decision making out of it each day.

I'm now at this stage where I can drink if i'd like to, I cannot drink if I don't want to.

You know, I've reset it that way.

But gray area drinking, if anyone's sitting in that space trying to moderate, that's actually harder.

Sometimes it takes more energy.

So you mentioned maybe just say it out loud, mention it to a friend, have a start a conversation about it.

You might feel you do need some help.

What are the other sort of practical steps that somebody could do who was just thinking of resetting?

Having a chat with your GP is a great place to start if you've got a good relationship with a GP, because they have a whole heap of referral partners at their fingertips that they could help guide you to.

There are quite a few health coaches working in the space private practices.

You could google health coaching alcohol coaches are trained to listen and to ask powerful questions to get you thinking and to increase your own insight.

So they're not experts out there that's going to tell you more of the same kind of knowledge.

They're designed to help you move forward with your own decision making.

I certainly know lots of friends who have said to me, just wish there was somewhere I could go for six weeks, you know, like you see on American TV shows.

Maybe not twenty eight days, but you know one of those places.

It's in the woods somewhere, and there's y gogur every morning in a beautiful you know, perfectly adjusted food for you every day, and you have a counseling session every day.

Those don't really exist here, do they.

We do have some, oh we do.

We do have some here in New Zealand.

Absolutely.

But the thing is that it's about being able to regulate all this in the real world.

Yeah, but hopefully Yeah.

One of my favorite quotes is finding peace in the midst of chaos.

It's not going and meditating on a mountain for ten days.

It's actually bringing this into our real lives.

Won't be a bad start, though.

How do we if there is if we've got a partner, or a family member or a dear friend and we are concerned about their drinking and the impact that's having on them.

It's a conversation, which I've learned over the years, doesn't really generally go down, well, how do you?

How can you start that conversation with someone that you might be worried about?

I agree it's a tough one, opening the conversation up with love and compassion and understanding without judgment.

Often it's when they're sober and remorseful.

Oh, that's when you want to get them.

It's hard hurting a but yeah, if it's at the nth degree.

If someone is currently sober so not drinking at that time, but they're remorseful about something that's happened, that is often a time where a loving, compassionate, curing conversation.

I guess you're right.

It's when the door is just slightly open, isn't it to saying if you really feel that way or you.

Know, yeah, and asking them, you know, like a powerful question, are you okay?

I've noticed this?

You could talk about the impact it's having on you.

If it's someone you know that I've noticed that the of your drinking, this is what it's having on me, and then leave space for them to talk.

It's very easy if it's a person you're living with, to enable each other a bit, isn't it Like, Okay, we don't normally drink through the week, but but there's that butt of wine and we've both had a rough day, and let's open that sort of thing, and the we can fall into that trap a little bit and well, well it's red wine, so it's okay.

Yeah, And that can also work in your favor, is to enlist the support of that person if you're both able to help.

Yeah, So it can work in both ways.

It can.

So it just takes one person to say, well, no, because we don't drink through the week.

Yeah, and can we do this together?

Yeah?

Difficult though.

And then if you want to support that person, what's what's the most important thing you can do?

Is it not drinking with them.

Or not necessarily yeah, because because that might not be sustainable going forward.

Yeah, it's really about that person figuring out what they need to successfully not to drink.

And it's not always that there's no alcohol in the house or that the people that live with them don't drink.

But that's a really tough one, really tough.

It makes you think because differently, we don't keep a cellar that's for settin, but there would you know, there's always a couple of bottles bought in the supermarket shop and leaving them in the shelves.

You know, it's temptations.

Yeah, what can work to is increasing friction between us and the habit that we don't want to be doing right.

So if the alcohol is not there, it's much harder to then get it.

So it could be that you remove it for a little while, or I've worked with people who just put it somewhere else, or lock it away, or have it away from the person who needs to increase the friction between them.

We're not a family that ever have.

My daughter rang me from the bottle store last night, in fact, and said, but if we got these straight, so I might just get some mixes.

I'm like, you know what, we don't have any straight booze in the house.

I think maybe when we got straight, I didn't know what it was anything.

I know the kids said completely different teams.

Yeah, we just don't have it tally alcohol free beer.

I do find quite useful to have in the house if I'm not.

I had an alcohol free beer the other day at a function, and I could not believe how far it has come.

It tasted like a normal beer.

I know, hard to drink beer, so but I just went.

And the last five things have come so far, I still haven't found a good alcohol free red wine or rose.

No, They're a bit harder to come by.

Yeah, And I mean part of me is like, if I'm not going to do it, I just you know.

And also I actually found I did use alcohol free wines when I was doing my one hundred slash seventy five days and and and there was something about the process to remove the alcohol that increased something else and it gave me a headache.

It's actually not great they make.

My understanding is they make the alcohol wine and then remove the alcohol from it.

So and the extraction process might include I don't know.

I'm not I'm not begging it.

I'm sure it has a place, and I'm sure they're working on getting it really really beautiful, but I'd rather just wait and have that, you know.

Yeah, I think there are a few other people who are not using like non alcohol manufacturers who are doing it.

Differently, and I think it would be good.

Yeah, it looks that if rosees packed and rose is quite, it's pretty good, I must say, for a special.

So I was just gonna ask about we tell ourselves things like red wine is not as bad as blah blah blah.

Is that nonsense?

Red wine still has alcoholis supposed to you.

The dan but or whatever the guy zones.

He phrases he's at one hundred years.

No he's not, but he's hundred.

Oh no.

They who talks.

About talks about antivity.

Yeah.

Yeah, he talks about the red wine and the Europeans and the Mediterraneans, you know, just having but they have tiny, tiny glasses and they sit around and.

They eat real food and during the day up and done.

How is it they do all the thing?

But what he's what he's really pushing there always is it's the socialization.

It's the connection and moderation.

Yeah, so they're not sitting around getting wasted every night together.

It's the intention behind it.

Yeah, big time.

I'd love to just quickly before we wrap this up, Breeze, talk about our drinking guidelines, because that is what a lot of people do refer to, or that is where a lot about education comes from.

Our drinking guidelines say that to stay low risk, men should have no more than fifteen drinks per week, women ten.

I know that quite a few countries are changing their guidelines.

Are we up to speed?

Do you think these the guidelines are sensible?

They're very high guidelines.

A lot of countries are reducing their guidelines.

What I've found is that they're not a target, you know, they're like a guideline.

Actually it's a good point.

And with the guidelines at standard drinks, but you've got to remember that standard drinks are much smaller than we would naturally pour ourselves a hot so one bottle of wine seven hundred and fifty mils, it's something like seven or standard drinks, which if we've only got ten standard drinks in a week, that you know, it doesn't take much to realize that the guidelines.

Are Yeah, because Canadas think God done to two.

No, they've recommended it to me, it hasn't been taken on board.

But my GPS said that to me.

You know, she was trying to make it really clear to me that other countries.

Here in New Zealand, we're not really stepping up to the plate and I know that they're being looked at the moment, but but you know, her point to me was, you know they're saying two a week.

That was a recommendation from from a from a health organization in Canada.

They haven't taken that on board yet, but I mean, that's how extreme they want it to go in order to get the message across, you know, about what low risk really is.

Yeah, we haven't even talked about that.

And this is not the forum necessarily about all the social harm that alcohol does as well.

So you know, leaving these things relatively high seems a bit, you know, a little bit naughty.

But is it?

Is it politics?

Is it the what do they call them, the lobbyists, or is that impacting it?

Or is it is it evidence based?

Think it's probably a bit of all of the above.

But from my where I come from, with health, even less than the guidelines are still going to have an impact on your body and your the lower lowered guidelines I would definitely support when it comes to health and well being in.

And look at as politics.

So in July this year, and OIA Request uncovered a few issues in New Zealand.

One the question as to where the alcohol guidelines would come under the Ministry of Health or Health New Zealand.

Initially it was with Health New Zealand, but it was also discovered that Health New Zealand found New Zealand's official Low Risk Drinking guidelines were outdated and understated the health risks of alcohol.

However, the efforts to upgrade update the guidelines were halted after alcohol lobbyists complained with the Ministry of Health General Manager.

Then the Ministry of Health was given the job of mannington the guidelines, which are now on hold.

So you don't Yes, there's absolutely an awful lot of politics involved and a lot of people are having their saying what the guidelines should be.

And I think you just probably summed it up really nicely there.

Rate alcohol is alcohol.

So our body doesn't know what the guidelines are.

You know, our liver doesn't know what the guidelines are.

So let's just reduce our own use and really analyze why we're doing it.

Yeah, it's a very personal thing, you know, the effect it has on you and where it sits in your life.

So that's probably my takeaway from today is just taking a pause.

You know a lot of people are auto pilot, just pause and reflect on where it sits in your life.

Do you know anything about these things that you can take.

I'm not trying to get away with this, by the way, but the z biotics and stuff that the hyundi and that did they work?

Are they real?

That's what you take resept They don't change your body's detox pathways of alcohol, right.

You know, they're not for me.

They are like a band aid on a cut.

It'll be trying to reduce the feeling you get of the hangover the next day.

Metabolically, it's going to be just as bad for you if not, you know, it's Yeah, No, I wouldn't recommend them.

They just they're not going to stop what we know is going to happen anyway.

Yeah right, it's just gonna so they're not They're not offering any protective metabolic factor at the end of the day.

No, I don't believe so.

And if anything, it might lead people to drink more thinking that they can get away with it.

Yeah.

It's kind of weird, isn't it.

I'll take this so I can drink more when I could just strictly and slow down.

There's the thing.

It's like two different things that cancel each other out.

But you know that's.

Humans for you.

But we are we're complex.

Ray.

I can't thank you enough for your time today and for this conversation.

I found seeing quite positive about the stories.

That's good.

Yeah, you know, as I said to you, a little bit hesitant.

I think it's this conversation.

But actually I think we're I think we've been quite I think we're on it.

I mean, yeah, totally.

I think that there is always that little thing that goes if I do start to analyze really why I'm doing this, what of it?

There's just that can of worms feeling a little bit, you know, But I'm not.

I'm not worried.

The worms need to come out and be binned.

So George, thank you so much.

Where do people find you?

Think you'll find me anywhere.

I'm sure if you google red George will come up health coaching.

I have a website dub dub dub dot Regeorge dot com.

Oh there's a lot of information on there.

It's really really useful.

Thanks so much.

Fore, thanklcha, Thank you both.

So you're gonna go home and tiple your wine down the Saint Francisco.

No because we're like, yeah, we don't have a huge amount in the in the house at all times anyway, which is probably.

What's it called hum reduction.

I didn't play.

We had before children, we had a seller and we had yeah, because I had dabbled in wine making at one point.

That's and I had a lot of wine making friends.

And though I was intended ever to just open that really special bottle of wine, it was I was quite a bit.

I can't remember when we must have just busted in there and rigged it, do you know?

I thought.

I just love Ree's approach, which is completely lacking in judgment, you know, just wants to encourry people to have a little think about their alcohol consumption.

You know, I've been doing a bit of a metabolism reset this year, and part of that has been the alcohol.

And you know, I've had to sort of have a think about a few things about why you drink and how it makes you feel and being honest with myself about that.

And I'm definitely benefiting from drinking less.

I get that.

But if she says it's personal too, so yeah, you know you don't.

You don't need to do what your friend does or your partner does or something like that.

This is just something for you to have a think about about how it impacts your life, the role it plays in your life, the place you want to have it to play in your life, and even if you're just at some point this week go for a walk and quietly think about it to yourself.

And I think that's a box ticked.

And I hope, you know, I hope that if when we open this today, that this topic today and you went, oh, well, I don't really drink very much, I can take it, leave it, that you keep listening because there will be someone in your life who could be struggling with it.

And you know, bloody good on you if you're a person who can take it or leave it, and particularly at a special occasion.

But you know, I think what we said also about it being so personal and just meeting yourself where you are, and it's not easy.

It's not easy for the people who want to make a decision, want to make a change, and I think whatever way you can support people is really important.

That's right.

Yeah, Yeah, absolutely, I love that.

Did you get some joy this week?

I got bundles?

Yeah?

Yeah, you know, we did the interview with Nadine and I left and my tie was completely flattened on the rim of my moped.

By the way, if you've seen me around that, I'm the nutter on the moped.

But I went round to this is it beat trod down here the BP and it's sevastation or proper sevistation with people in it, you know, like a guy behind the counter came out and helped me.

And I haven't really needed to use that first of all free year.

How good is that?

I mean, it's pretty cool.

Nothing's free.

There are still.

People working the way, but they're just not on the court.

That's right.

They're not doing your picture for you.

And therefore I'd stopped thinking about them.

I just think about the people who you pay.

You've got some customer suits.

I got a customer service and it was a joy.

And yes, and then this is the crazy crazy thing.

I'm at my local supermarket, which is quite some distance from that petrol station, picking up where it was all of wine anyway, and I hear this voice behind me going, oh, you got your tire fix then?

And what?

And I turned around it was him and I said, I have really, do you get the chance to thank the person who gave you a favor you think you're never going to see them again.

I said, I want to tell you, I've told so many people about your kindness and you know how how love you.

He just looked at me like I was crazy.

That's okay, And I didn't also want to tell him, No, I haven't got my tire fix.

It just hasn't got down again.

So that was my joy?

What about you?

My joy is really simple.

This week I got back to pottery and I made something with my hands, and I forgot about the real world and everything in it for a couple of hours.

And I created something, and I played, and I just took time out and I was creative and I don't know, just repairs my brain.

Maybe you can get a wheel at home when you feel like a drink.

You can just see your hands and some clay.

No, I love it.

I think I just think we forget to play, and I think I think we forget to take a moment and be creative.

And yeah, it's nice to make something tangible.

As absolutely there.

I can't wait to start seeing some of the stuff.

Yes, well, yeah, I'm not saying it's any good.

No, not quite all right then.

Thank you for joining us on our new Zealand Hill podcast series, The Little Things.

We hope you share this podcast with the woman in your life.

We can all have a guilt free rose ocasionally.

And you can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

And for more episodes from us on other topics, head to zid Herald dot co dot nz

And we'll catch you next time on the Little Things.