Hi, I'm Francisca Rudkin and I'm Louis Area, and welcome to season five of our new Zealand Here podcast, The Little Things Good to have you with us.

So in this podcast, we're joined by experts in their field to talk about the little things that you need to know to improve all areas of your life.

And but there's lots of information and confusion out there, so we try and cut through that to bring you some clarity so you can make your own well informed decisions on your well being.

So you remember last season, we spoke to Kathy Duffy, Yes, ultra Marison runner and a real advocate of women just pursuing stuff through them see the menopause or us or the glory us as she called them.

Last season.

I was so inspired by her that I decided to train to do a trail Morison early next year.

Now, Francisca and I have been talking about how much of that training of foreigner event comes in the form of, you know, comes down to mental toughness as much as physical fitness, which I don't have much of either actually at the moment, but anyway, I'm working on it.

So we've been talking techniques that sports psychologists used to help elite sleeps.

We gained focus, manage their anxiety, so motivated, and cope with setbacks and all of those things are really important to you at the moment, Lou, to help you achieve your goal.

But then we got to thinking, which is something which happens occasionally here on the little things, and we were like, well, I wonder if we can actually take these tools that elite athletes use and apply them to our everyday lives, all those little goals and things we have for ourselves and every day just just managing stress, managing precious situations at work, having a goal, staying motivated about things.

It kind of it was like, hang on a minute, maybe there's something in this that we that we could kind of all get on board with.

I think this is something I do in my everyday life as well as my you know, when I'm setting a goalf for an event, I have a habit of saying it out loud and thinking that that the rest of it will just magically unfold.

And you know this about me, and this is despiting lived experience of it not being the case.

It's never worked for me.

Do you remember that Tassic Travis, I told you I've been doing a bit of training over summer and I did it and know how to panic attack in the first kilometer.

Oh it was so yeah, no blessing.

You were like, you just go, just go, and I'm like, I'm not going to leave you.

And I couldn't leave you because I was like, I don't know what she's going to end up.

What might just lose her on and it's not pay her the de somewhere, but it's a metaphor for my life.

But you also did admit as we were driving to the stat line that actually the training had evolved quite a lot of summer beers and that maybe you know you kind of did not on the back of your mind, but you just now, I've just entered another event that is at the end of summer.

No, no, no, no, I think you added, You're completely different this time because you know what it entails.

You've done enough to know that you can't rock up to what you're going to go and do without doing the work.

But it is interesting because you're doing all the strength work and you're doing all the physical work and things, but on the day, it's going to be your brain that gets you to the end.

It's going to be your mind that gets you to that finish line.

And as much as I love running around the hills, it still gets monotonous.

It So how do you keep going?

We're using you as a little bit of a guinea pig because as much as I've done a lot of events as well on things, I've never used any kind of tiple technique or anything to kind of make me mentally tough.

Forthing, I've literally just gritted it out.

I've literally my approach has been, oh, I just have to finish.

If it means I crawl over the finish line.

I crawled over the finish line.

But I've always just gone.

Remember when I was hanging that tree at the end of the Tara Wearra Trail Marathon and I says, Tack, you're very kindly, just like I don't think you are.

But I was sure that I wasn't going to make it.

And actually, once I'd had my little moment, I then just keep going because to me, then my mind I just go.

There is actually no other choice.

So I just gritted out.

But I'm sure there's a much more sophisticated way that we could be dealing with these problems and then of course bringing it into our real lives.

I mean, are you I mean you've set this goal?

Well I know, I just I just entered something again.

It's not the same thing.

I don't think you know what I mean, like you're trying to It's a gap between knowing and doing right right.

Yeah, And I guess I also look at other people who set goals like one year, two year, three year, five year goals not not exercise really admire people I've got a five or ten year goal.

Well they do they learn something I didn't learn.

I don't know.

I'm not think people did tell us to set goals and we were were fine, We're just wanting it.

Yeah.

Then you get to midlife and you go those goals aren't goals.

It's just actually living, being able to do something.

Do you know what I really want to get out of this today?

I want to get an idea about how to bounce back from a setback, because I think that in day to day life, when we're managing jobs and families and kids and there's a lot going on, there's always something's always falling over right, the ship setting the fan somewhere, there's always a set back somewhere, and I'm hoping that today I'm going to be able to kind of get a tiple technical or two that just makes me stop and pause and take a big deck breath and actually be able to handle that and move forward, you know, et with a bit of positivity.

There's a sign on somebody's store at work that says, if you're going through hell, just keep going.

And I think it might be George or Well or something.

I'm not sure, but I'd like to change that.

It's like this to pass.

Yeah, but if you're going through hell, make a plan and visualize your way out of it.

I don't know.

Visualization something I'm really going to see talk about us to talk about as well, because it always sounds like a really good idea, but I get halfway through it and I get bored and I just go into something else.

I'm not really sure how it's supposed to work.

So that's a great commitment anyway.

So to kill two birds with one stone to help me achieve my goal and help us all deal with the challenges that life throws at us.

We're joined by mental skills and performance coach doctor Kylie Wilson.

Kylie has a PhD in performance psychology and is herself a former professional athlete.

She has worked with some of our best teams and athletes, from Olympians to many of our national teams to help them fulfill their potential and achieve their goals.

Kylie, welcome, Thank you so much for coming in today.

Thank you for having me so excited you're here.

Can you first up, just tell us a little bit about you and this fascinating career that you have.

Yeah, I couldn't say that it was very crafted.

I felt like I fell into it.

So I actually wanted to be a police officer.

And then they said go to university and get some life experience.

So I thought I'll be a forensic kind of criminal psychologist or criminal lawyer.

So I studied psychology and law and realized law was not for me.

So then a lot of my friends I was playing rugby down Otago and they were all doing sort of sports science.

So I fell into that and loved the kind of sports psychology aspect of it.

So didn't know where it would take me, but I really enjoyed it.

And then my supervisor at the time, Ken Hodge, he said, do you want to do a PhD over in the UK.

My dad's Welsh, so I'd planned to go over there anyway, And yeah, I ended up sort of doing a PhD.

And now it's my job.

So I feel like it's just my passion has led me versus like me, you know, thinking oh, this is what I'm going to do and I'm going to find a way to do it.

So feel very very lucky that it's what I get to do for a living.

So do you mind me asking how long guess you goo you were at Otago?

Because that those sports sciences courses are really choc a block full of ambitious young you know, potential sports psychologists or sports managers.

Now was it like that when you started?

I think the physical sciences like your physiology and things like that were far more advanced in terms of like career pathways.

Certainly Ken Hodge, who was my supervisor, would he's still there at Otago.

He would say that there's probably only a handfuluss he'll come through that program and actually gone on to be sports psychologists so or work in that field.

So I wouldn't say that the psychology part of it was that dominant at the time.

M interesting, how long did you played rugby Forore.

I started Otago, so it would have been about fifteen years I would have played for, so really good rounding to start at Otago.

Played with a lot of black Ferns back then, and then when I moved to WLS do my PhD.

Yeah, I think after six months of arriving I was in the Welsh team, so it was a pretty quick promotion.

What position were you open side.

Plankets or seven?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah.

Did you use yourself as a bit of a guinea pig as you were studying as well?

Absolutely?

Yeah.

I actually really enjoyed doing that.

So as I was learning, I was just practicing all the tools myself and my own performance, and then I was coaching as well, so I would integrate it into my coaching and then as part of the Welsh team you got access to work with sports psychologists, so I kind of felt like I had, you know, a sort of three pronged approach to developing my understanding of the skills, and I feel like that's set me up to work really well with other coaches, So that does make sense.

Having It's nice to have the theory but been able to put it into practice at the same time.

And see it from a different point of view from the other side.

I can imagine that was hugely valuable.

Yeah, often I'd get a little bit of a sideways look because I'd try some things with the groups I was working with, and I wouldn't say they are very traditional from what was being taught in the coaching courses and things.

But I worked with a young Welsh team.

We were I think Wales under twenty and we were the first Welsh team to beat England.

Wow.

Yeah at any age group.

So in the women's side, and yeah, it was I think some of their strategies or process I was putting them through just made them see the game differently and work differently together.

So yeah, I loved using them as my guinea pigs.

I guess to try some things out.

Tell us a little bit about who you've worked with, because you've worked with individuals and teams.

Is that quite a different dynamic.

Absolutely yep.

So I do love working in the team space.

I like the challenge of how you get people to work together under pressure.

It's a little bit more complex, but also yeah, I just like the team environment.

So I guess early on work with men's blacksticks, then silver Ferns, so in the netbull space, and then sort of worked in various rugby settings, so Blues, Super Rugby, lots of the sort of NPC level New Zealand Under twenty for a while in and out of the Black Fern sevens and who are currently one of the teams I currently support, and they're operating at a very high level, so you're really challenged in what you do with them in terms of taking them to a level that not many people have been before.

And then have started in November last year with the Warriors, so that's my first time in rugby league, which has been really exciting.

And then individuals, so working five sport New Zealand, you work with Olympic campaigns.

So I had the pleasure of working with Luca Jones for twelve years, so she was the canoe slalem paddler and then after her came Finn Butcher, so I worked with in that sport.

With those individuals, I've done a little bit in various campaigns Trithlon weightlifting.

Yes, you sort of end up supporting a few campaigns in those different sort of Olympic sports.

Well, that's a huge variation and it cannot be one size fits all approach.

Right, absolutely not.

You know, you have some principles of practice and some approaches that are underpin your practice, but it's how you marry those two a the individual and be the demands of the sport.

So you can imagine, like lifting a weight above your head is a lot different to a canoe sylm course, which is a lot of decision making as you're going down, reading the water, very sort of being present in the moment, versus a kind of very short, sharp like aggressive power movement.

So you've got to really look at the demands of the sport to see what's needed, but also how the individual approaches that.

So you spend a lot of time actually trying to learn the person and then apply your knowledge to that person and see what kind of joins up.

So it's it's an art versus science most of the time.

It must also be quite interesting.

As you say, you work with the Warriors, and I love the NRL.

We're big Warriors fans in our house, but my goodness, they put us through the ring fans, right, So, but that's week to week compared to when you're dealing with an Olympian.

They have got this campaign and they work for four years and then you have this one moment.

You know, that's that's a completely different pressure, isn't it It is?

It's I think what like for in Severns, for example, is an Olympic sports both play the World Series every year so that they're you know, it's not like they don't do anything and then just do that, but it's all roads lead to the Olympics.

You know, you're always that's sort of your focus.

Is what we're doing now going to get us to we want to be by the Olympics.

So the narrative is definitely like, yeah, it's it's this real pinnacle moment and what someone like you know Canuslalem for example, that they are pretty under the radar for four years and then suddenly not a lot of So it's a lot of the external noise and attention and distraction that is quite novel to manage.

And so we did do a lot of work about talking about preparing for it, but there's nothing like experiencing it.

And that's why you normally see most people do better at their seat in Olympics in there first because they figure out how to better deal with that sort of distraction, noise and the chaos of kind of the Olympic environment, which it is, it is pretty interesting environment.

And as spectators with the Olympics, he's always that one sport where you know, we didn't know anything about and then suddenly we're seeing it all the time, and then we're fully backing that person and that's I mean, I don't know if they feel that pressure, but you know, it's quite incredible.

It's like with the pole volt, wasn't Eliza mcahey.

Yeah, yeah, it's like, I mean, but just being in a meeting that day.

It was a sad day, but I had a meeting and we just all stopped and you know, watched because we were just so suddenly obsessed by this one individual sport.

Yeah, it's a really interesting kind of point in your identity development.

You know, you go from being not recognized and not really you know, that's not important, and then suddenly you know and Atho I work with one a gold medal and was suddenly like you know, he said, the Prime Minister text him.

He was like, what the hell, what's going on?

You know, like why am I suddenly white?

A pea will suddenly get interested?

So it's an interesting shift for them in terms of how they think the world sees them.

Suddenly is someone special or important and yeah that they've got They have to process that because it changes the way they kind of hold themselves, I guess.

So it's interesting.

So why does an athlete come to you?

What do they hope to get from working with you?

I think of a variety of reasons.

Like I think traditionally it would be because maybe something's not working like they feel it should be.

Maybe they feel like they've got potential but they can't access it at the right time.

Maybe they have a specific issue like anxiety or something like that.

But sometimes athletes, and this is happening more and more regularly now, is they they just want to know how to get as much out of themselves as they can.

So it's not a deficit model.

It's a real how do I optimize myself through using mental strategy?

So that's definitely more of the case now.

It's become so much more normalized in terms of you know, you have a nutritionists and you have a strengthening conditioning coach, and you have your mindset coach.

So it's now something that is just part of a team of people that help that person or that team get the most out of themselves.

Yeah, that's really interesting you say that about the deficit model versas, so they've got a platform and they're looking to expand on that rather than they know that they personally struggling with something psychologically or whatever.

Yeah, and we all have those little struggles, and we all have those imposter syndrome that must come into it sometimes too, does it absolutely?

Yep, yep.

And most of it's interesting because most of the athletes who I get to work with, the lucky enough are pretty have got to a high level and so they've always been probably the big fish or yeah, the fish in the small pond or whatever, and so when they get up to that really elite level, sometimes things don't work quite as well as they used to.

So it's not necessarily that there's a deficit, but they have to find new ways to either attacker an opposition or a competition or things like that.

So, yeah, Kylie, can you identify what it is about an athlete that makes them successful?

It's normally not one thing.

I think one of the biggest things is they're really high level of self awareness of both their strengths and potentially the things that don't help them that much.

So their understanding of you know, I like to use a phrase the light self and the shadow self, you know, so they understand that their shadow self and what holds them back, and they're really willing and courageous to kind of dive into going how can I shift that?

You know, So that it's interesting because you know, people will just go, oh, they're superhuman and things like that, but they're actually the really human people who are choosing to do something that's scrutinized, not saying it's difficult, but it's scrutinized, and so they have to really know themselves and how that's going to impact them, and they're willing to.

Look at that.

So I would say that's the biggest differentiator between potentially the athletes who you know, really push on is they're not living in a fake world of trying to pump their own ties up.

You know.

It's very authentic and they're able to say, yeah, I'm not so good in those moments my mind goes there, my heart doesn't really take me to the right place or whatever it is, and they're willing to use the resources to help them sort of address that.

See, I think that's something you know, because one of the reasons we wanted to talk to you today was we are fascinated by the world of the athlete and how you get those extra increments of success.

But also we all could do with a little bit of you know, understanding our lighter what did you call it?

The lifelight itself and shadows?

Yeah, yeah, I mean how often do we We often sort of grit our way through things and we just wonder if there might be a bit doing it sometimes.

And you know it's I think they're in the fortunate position that, you know, their job creates space for them to explore that, you know, so it's a really encouraged and coaches now phenomenal it's at not setting up environments where you're failing or you're not doing as well as we want you to go and see that person, you know, they're actually saying, well, just like, how can you know, how can you get more out of yourself or hold yourself in a different way if that's what you choose to do.

And so you've got the environments now much more supportive of kind of holding that shadowself a little bit more tolerant rather than I know, you just know you can't cope go, you know.

So I'm sure that you know, to be an elite athlete, you've got to have a bit of natural ability, and you've obviously got to be able to work really hard and everything.

But kind of what I hear you saying is that we could actually all reach our potential if we want.

To do yeah, whatever and whatever that is you choose to do, right, And I think, you know, when I think about high performance athletes, it's they're just pursuing something they're passionate about and skilled at, you know, so they've been told from a young age probably that this is something that they're good at, so it becomes their passion maybe, but it's anything anyone who's in pursuit of something important to them.

The ability to understand how you function in both strength and maybe some things that hold you back, and how you can work with that that will help you achieve, you know, closer to whatever that potential is, you know, whatever that you choose to be doing, whether it's parenting relationships, pursuing a career goal, a physical goal, whatever it is.

So yeah, I really.

Like that because I'm in my early fifties, but I still believe that my best days are ahead.

I mean, I'm very happy with the years that have gone by, really, but I just I don't know where I've been blissfully naive or whether that really truly maybe I've beaked.

I'm not sure, but I do like that.

I do like that thought.

No, my best days of silly head, who knows what I might potentially achieve.

Yeah, No, I'm not big.

I'm not a big one on staying static.

But once, something you just said was about the things that hold us back, and I think I think I think about the things that hold me back, probably too much, and then I sort of almost accept that as a as a block.

Yeah, so anyway, that's probably too personal.

But you know, it's like that's all I can think about now is Oh, I'm almost thinking about why I can't do something instead of why I can.

So maybe there I need to start.

Some of the work I do with athletes is really sitting in that space and going where do these stories and thoughts come from?

And why do I show up in these situations and not others?

And how could we perhaps find different ways to speak to ourselves, particularly when we're in moments under the most scrutiny in the most pressure, and so that's a lot of a lot of the work we do is maybe a little bit of understanding why so that that inside allows you to perhaps be a little bit more compassionate to yourself when those things show up, and understanding of yourself and then develop some different ways to perhaps think that tapping into maybe some of the strengths you do have, you know, and.

That is absolutely a technique that you can take into your day to day life, something that we can use in our day to day lives.

Say, you know, you're just kind of not really satisfied with how things are going at work.

Maybe as you said, you're not really you know, you're finding parenting just a bit hard and you're hitting a wall there.

It's just it's just about taking a moment and stepping back and being honest with yourself about And I don't think we want to do this all the time.

We don't want to because we don't want to focus on potentially negative or something that we're deficient at.

But taking a look and going at you, I'm not okay, I'm not coping with this so well, and I'm not dealing with this so well or I'm lacking patients or I'm doing it.

You know, so you have just have that really honest conversation with yourself to work out the pros and con so to speak, and then how do you then?

What do you do?

Well?

It's I think it's what's the block that keeps showing up?

And why does that exist?

I think that's really important, and sometimes we don't potentially have the tools to answer those questions introspectively in our own minds.

And that's why talk having that's why therapy is really really powerful.

You know that some to ask you the different questions that help you put the puzzle together and create that understanding.

And then what might be some different ways we could speak to ourselves think in this moment, because it's a little bit like, you know, perfectionism.

You know, most of the athletes I work with a highly perfectionistic and so anything that isn't perfect is a complete failure.

So it's that real.

Black and white kind of binary thinking, whereas sometimes you might say, not necessarily like I failed, but what was what was the good bits?

And well they're not so good bits, So you create a little bit more gray from the black and white and they have to practice that because most people have thinking styles that are quite ingrained, you know, and so they're quite hard to change.

So it's like anything, if you want to change any habit, smoking, more exercise, whatever, it's like, you know, the more your times you do it, the more strong, stronger that habit becomes.

So you've really got to work at kind of driving your thinking into different ways.

You're just talking about habits and the more you do it and things, and for a lot of athletes, they become very good at what they do because they do the basics over and over again.

We sort of translate that into real life.

It doesn't sound terribly motivating, well not when you've when you might have multiple goals in front of you.

So most of us are a lot of us are parenting, in a relationship, working, and hopefully have some personal fitness or well being goal.

So it is quite you know, heading all of those notes, I mean, I'm not taking anything away, but how good to be a pressional with me?

And that's it.

You get up.

You're a professional athlete on the daily.

Although the scrutiny would be pretty pretty tough, and also the funding and the uncertainty, none of us survive all that well and that uncertain area or either do we be curious to know a little bit more about how how they manage that uncertainly But that's probably a different conversation.

How do you go about it?

I mean most the ethics I work with are in relationships.

And in parents.

True, yeah, they've got multiple demands on them.

I think they get very skilled.

I'm going to call it compartmentalizing, so being able to go right, what's this demand?

What does this require of me?

You know, whether whether they drive into the building or turn up to the track or whatever it is, and say, what's required of me now?

And how do I bring my best self to this?

And then when they become you know, go home and be the parent that they do the same thing.

So they're very good at sort of distinguishing the different spaces that are and really been quite purposeful about what they want to bring to those spaces.

And I guess it's recognizing changeable priorities very quickly, you know, so they might even go from and it is quite quick.

But you know, the athletes, the teams I'm working at the moment, you know, they'll play and within ten minutes they'll be reviewing, So they go into a learning space like that, you know, from being really hyped up and a drilline pumping to being you know, deconstructing what happened has happened in learning.

So you know, they're very good at kind of changing I guess the requirements and what spaces they need to be in and bouncing between those spaces as quickly as possible.

So that's this, you know, the training environment is set up for them to really practice that.

Yeah, I guess that's true when I think about it.

I've known a couple of professional athletes in my life in different social settings, one where I was much younger and one more recently.

They are definitely quite focused characters on Well, actually that's probably not true.

The one that I knew when we were younger, you couldn't you were you would be with him, but his mine wasn't right with us, do you know what I mean?

Like he found that social versus the responsibilities of what he was doing.

I think it was the captain of the black Caps at the time or something that you know, you could feel it when it was with them all the time.

I set up deliberately to train that in them.

Yeah, because that's a performance characteristic, you know, so it's not a surprise that they're good at it.

Lots of them actually struggle when they retire and go into workplace settings that people just seem to get distracted so easily.

You know that they're quite that's something they that surprises them.

You know that they.

People kind of really like have I can't prioritize or compartmentalize very well, and they're actually amazing in most settings I go into.

I bet they are.

Yeah, I always felt a bit of a hot message all those kind of people.

You're listening to the little things, and I guess On the podcast today is mental skills and performance coach doctor Curlie Wilson talking to us about how we can take tools elite athletes use and apply them to our everyday lives.

We'll be back shortly after this break.

Welcome back, Culie.

We were just talking about focus there and refocusing and look, I am so easily distracted.

And I work from home a lot, right, so I can have three things on the gual once.

I can be doing some work while I'm also doing you know, something around the house and be thinking about something else entirely as well.

But makes me sound very scattered ourselves to do that as well.

So yes, yeah, yeah, possibly, how do we during our day stay focused or bring the attention back to what it is that we should be focusing on.

I think you name something there is the art and the skill of multitasking.

Yeah, and aft I don't want to do, to be honest with you, Yeah, and that's that's the question.

So I always use phrases like is that helpful or unhelpful?

Versus is it a good thing or a bad thing?

Because sometimes you will need to multitask, so you need to be able to you know, hopefully have the capacity the bandwidth to be able to do that.

But when you do want to hone in, you know, lots of the athletes will just say, like the question I used before is like, what what does this require of me?

So you go into it going I'm not just going to launch into it.

I'm going to do one moment.

I've kind of prep for it to go what's this requiring, what's the priority, what's the skills I need?

What's the way I want to approach it?

So quite often their prep enables them to make really good decisions about where to put their attention, and they're also able to through skills like just bringing their attention maybe to their breath, doing a little bit of mindfulness things like that.

Like lots of the athletes I work with integrate mindfulness into their preparation just to reduce the chaos, reduce the noise, reduce the frequency in their mind down to something really simple so that they can then go into that thing with a huge amount of intense focus on that soul task.

And so they practice their ability of going multitasking, you know, lots lots of chaos down to something really really simple, whether it's a breath.

Some of the sailors I used to work, where you just used to listen to the wind against the sail, whereas that's happening all the time, but they're not paying attention to it necessarily.

So lots of skills like that that help them prepare to be focused.

So I think that's quite a big difference is they know what's required of them and they prep themselves to meet the demands of that task.

They don't just go, you know, like fall into it, and they have these little routines everywhere they go.

I like that I might set myself up a little routine when I sit down to write at home, or I sit down to prep and things like that.

You were talking before about the way we talk to ourselves, and I like the way.

You know, my thought would have been, oh, I shouldn't be doing this, I'm distracting, but I like the way you I should think it more along the lines of Francisca.

This isn't helpful to just stop, you know, Is that what you're talk about when it comes to the way you talk.

To Yeah, not that I want this to turn to a therapy session, but when you speak to yourself, what I hear is judgment I should So there's obviously an expectation of what it should look like and you're not meeting it.

And judgmental thought keeps us in a hypercritical space, whereas when we're wanting to perform, it's like we need to, I guess, loosen the shackles of judgment.

And so, you know, how do I want to be rather than how do I think people expect me to be?

You know what else?

What about stressful moments?

What about when you might be doing a presentation, work, you might have a challenge on your hands.

Is a lot going on what's a good way for us to handle sort of those stressful moments in our lives.

Yeah, well there's two bits to that.

I think one is understanding why you're creating the stress because often it's like we talk about pressure as facts plus stories.

You know.

So the fact is the Warriors are playing a knockout game, you know, do a die kind of a game, So that's a fact.

Factors we're playing penrith of one more times than us, that's a fact.

The stories become you know, are we good enough to beat them?

What are people going to think?

So it's really.

Recognizing, like, what are the stories that you're bringing into that moment that makes it stressful.

So preparing for a presentation, for example, is you know, the factors I've got fifteen minutes to talk about the thing I know the most about.

It's a pretty good fact, you know, like and so the stories that could flaff that is what a great opportunity to kind of go into the space where I feel most passionate and confident versus are people going to think I'm good?

Or you know, like, so, how can you make the stories work for you?

There's always gonna be stories, but how can you perhaps make them work for you a little bit versus against you.

And it's really being able to pick the stories that are going to work against you and being able to challenge them, you know, because you're creating something anyway, you might as well make it something helpful.

I love that.

Yeah.

Yeah, And it comes back to dealing with that judgment.

Yes, And as much as we all pretend that you know, other people's opinions of us none of our business, they do creep in.

Yeah, And so it's just how you check that at the gate, you know, like make sure you're you're acting as the bouncer and you only want the cool kids in the club, you know, like the the good stories, the helpful stories.

But I think the best example of this is you know, the All Blacks And I've only read this, I'm not first hand knowledge, but you know they talked about pressures of privilege, and so they changed the story is something they wanted to walk towards, versus that was off the back of them perhaps underperforming at World Cups and you know, label chokers and all that.

So they created a different story.

Pressures of privilege.

It's something we want, we want to be in that moment, it means we've done really, really well.

It means we've got all the skills to meet the challenge.

So they just created a whole different story around this pressure moment, and you know, they all talk about that has been quite an influential thing on the way they start to think about it.

That they then were excited to play the final versus you know, focusing on what will the country do and how people treat us and.

All of that.

Yeah, that I can't That upsets me.

I get worried for people when we put that kind of external pressure.

There's actually got nothing to do with the performance in the outcome of the game, which is it's crazy.

Our athletes better at handling failure.

Do you think from the average person they get good at that?

I wouldn't say they enjoy it, you know, like because that's that's like the exam they take at the end of studying for four years or whatever it is.

It's if they really want to do well, and so failure is really really difficult.

But do they learn from it?

I suppose.

I think the first thing is that like no one, no athlete I've known, has ever won an Olympic title or a World championship or a you know, without failing, like it's part of the deal, you know.

And so I think.

Their ability to go, what's this going to teach me?

What can I take from it?

What has it shown me that I need to go and address or whatever it's like, or where's a skill gap or whatever it is.

And I think their superpower is getting over the disappointment and the feeling of losing or failing and really going into like, what can I learn from this house It's going to make me better?

You know.

So sometimes it takes them a fair while, but often it will be the stimulus that helps them kick on to a new level so they realize it's really like, you can't really go through a sporting career without experiencing it, so, you know, getting so caught up with it and you know, is not workable.

Oh it's funny, isn't it.

Not all about you?

It's not your mate.

It might feel like it's your identity and everything about you, but it's not necessarily.

Yes, And that's a lot of work that we do with the athletes is really ensuring that their whole sense of who they are and they're worth as a person isn't tied up with the scoreboard, you know that they're able to look at.

Yeah, we might not have won, but that part of our game really grew or I learned lots about myself in that situation.

I can use that next time.

So yeah, you know, and look, there's so much going on at the moment out there in the job market and things, and people are losing jobs and that can be really you know, it is a very difficult thing to go through.

But once again, it's reminding yourself that what you do isn't necessarily who you are.

Yes, yeah, I think you can play a large part of it.

But and it's really difficult when people rely on you, you know, sustainable living and you know, like shelter and food and all that.

So that puts a huge amount of real pressure on But again, it's if you're in a situation where that stress is meaning it's limiting either how you attack that next opportunity to you know, get a job or whatever, then you need to kind of figure out how to address that.

You know, is it holding you back from doing the things that you want to do, whether it's applying for jobs or whatever.

I mentioned failure before, because I want to know how you come back from a setback.

Well, again, I think setbacks, like the word even the word failure, is like they're all part of the journey.

So it's hopefully it's not come back from, it's grow from.

You know, like a lot of the athletes, like the blackfin sevens, you know, they lost the Rio Olympic final, and I think they might not have won the next one if they hadn't have done that, so because they got so much sharper and more focused on what they needed to do.

Because of that.

So while you feel at that time it's really really disappointing that, I think it's normally the catalyst.

If you've got a growth mindset and an environment that promotes that, then you know it's normally the catalyst for that real shartening of your prioritization, your areas of focus, and so they get very deliberate about what they do because of those experiences.

I just watched a schoolboy's final rugby game and at the end, you know, the winning team were just over the moon, right and they had not one for a long time.

In that setting.

The team that I was supporting had won it.

They were going for a three peet.

They were on the ground crying absolutely, and look have your moment.

That's actually fine.

But in my head I was like, oh, pressures off for next year.

They don't have to do or four feet you know.

I was saying to my son, well that you go next year is a whole new blank canvas for you.

Guys.

They were going to see it like that in the moment, but I think they're already sort of focused on Oh yeah, growth, you know, for next time, we'll know we don't perhaps think we have it in the bag before we play the game.

Yea, what is a growth mindset?

Well, how do you get one?

Yeah, it's it's basically approaching all your experiences as a chance to get better, whether that's winning.

And I think that's a That's why I like to frame it like that because often we don't learn as hard from winning.

You know, we go, oh, that felt good or it was great, and then we kind of move on to the next thing, whereas we di sect failure.

One of my philosophies is we've got to dissect winning, and not just winning, but really good performance, even regardless of outcome.

So if someone's nailed something in their performance, go, let's dissect it so that we start building our blueprint of what works.

Because I think as high performance athletes we tend to be biased.

I say we as if I'm in high performance an there, but they tend to be biased towards negative because that's going to be where they think they'll get the most growth from.

But often it's you know, if you keep honing what you're really good at, and you keep cultivating your ability to put that on the table more often, then your performance tends to grow and you'll naturally work on this stuff.

But I think if we become too biased on our deficits and our weaknesses, we.

Really impacts our confidence.

That's really interesting because my daughter is at a school where they believe in individualized education and they promote and focus on what you're really good at, and yeah, if you're not so good at the English and there's, they'll work on that, but hey, let's focus on what you're really good at.

And interestingly, the things that you're not so good at just slowly they actually do just slowly.

Over timely because you know, we bring it.

Why someone you know really improved or mastered a part of their performance, it sets up their really strong framework for how to approach things they're not so good at, and so they start to then apply that same same philosophies or frameworks to improve their deficits.

And they do that from a confidence set rather than I can't be useless at this.

You know.

It's just it's a really subtle shift, but it's I've seen it make quite a big difference in just how people keep showing up to their challenging the challenging parts of their job because they're really clear on why they're good at what they're good at.

Huh.

I like that, Yeah, I do too.

I Mean I've heard growth mindset thrown around for many years.

I have never heard it explained as well.

It was perfect approach as a chance to, you know, get better at the things.

That are assurances provide you an opportunity to improve and get better, you know, whether that's winning, losing, or mastering something or not quite heading the mark that it's just having that ability to go, what's this.

Going to teach me?

You know if we take if we take right that chance.

And that's why they call it a mindset, because it's a real philosophy, you know.

And so if you and some of the best coaches I work with just keep that philosophy bubbling away.

You know, they kind of like, because it's really easy when you get pressure from funders or sponsors or whatever, just to start going to that, like we need to just win this game, you know, so we can't be useless at these things anymore.

You know, it's really easy to fold to that.

Well, that's the brutal part for sport, isn't it.

It's it's it's really brutal when it comes to funding.

And even when you see them sitting with the Olympians, you know, how much money how many of these types of athletes can we even take, even though we might have plenty excellent ones.

Yeah, and some who make the qualification standard, but still you know, can't go And that's really tough.

And I think the funding model has changed for the better that there's a lot more security.

You know, lots of them are on at least two years, most of some of them on four, and that gives them a sense of, you know, just space to try some things, because I think when if you're on a year by year funding, your willingness to go, okay, we're going to not focus on outcomes for these sets things are going to try some different strategies and we may get outcomes, but it's not our focus.

But long term that's going to help us.

So I think it's made athletes potentially have the space a bit bit more courageous.

And look, I'm and research and we're also on contractor contract basis is the funding and you have to have a decent track record to get to the funding again, and it's quite cruel.

I'm in a business that lives and dies.

Well, that's right, tractor as well.

But I think you've got to practice, you know, I try and practice what I preach to go you people will employ me or not, but I can't too far far away from my philosophies, you know, like otherwise you're kind of doing work and internal tension.

There's always tension in the environment, but you've got to kind of have your set of values that you kind of try and keep, you know, committed to and then make people.

People can make decisions, you know, about whether you fit them or don't.

I like that too.

That's great.

And Lou mentioned self doubt and imposter syndrome earlier as well, and I'm sure that when it comes to you know, you're talking before about acknowledging what you're actually good at and why you're here, and that must come into play if you if you're struggling a little bit, just sort of wondering what on earth you're doing in a particular job or in a situation you're in.

Yeah, there's she's a pretty prolific social media person.

But Alona Ma, she's Oh, I love playing at the rugbyl Cup and she was asked the question said, oh, you know, do you suffer from imposter syndromes?

You wouldn't know, you know, not at all, because I know what I'm good at.

You know.

It was just like a really refreshing kind of just a bold statement to go no, because I know what I'm worth, like, I know what I'm good at.

And whilst that's quite aspirational, I think it's a good kind of reminder for us to not get too forgetful or distant from those things and actually be quite deliberate.

Sometimes.

You know, people are now journaling and what am I grateful for?

But often it's like what am I proud of about myself and what I'm doing?

You know, And with a lot of the athletes I work with, it's that deliberate practice of sitting down and going I've got these strengths.

Yeah, that's right, and those strengths can help me you tackle a challenge I might have, so not kind of just going with the flow, but actually pause moments to check in on those things.

And she does that also with such a flair, sense of humour and all those other things, so that it doesn't even come off as cocky or as fabulous.

And she's a great role model.

Before we wrap up, Kaylie, can we ask you about visualization.

Do you ever use it?

Absolutely?

I'm actually a really skilled visualizer myself, and to the point where I'm quite an anxious driver when my kids are in the car and I visualize like accidents, you know, so they're not good.

It's good visualization, but very vivid.

Yeah, I use it a lot.

The ethics I work with use it a lot for a variety of reasons.

One is, you know, we talk about being really clear on your strengths.

Seeing yourself exhibit those strengths ahead of time is a really powerful source of clarity and confidence, you know.

So lots of the players that I work with for the weekend coming up, they'll be visualizing themselves executing the plays, you know, seeing themselves really powerfully stepping into their role, you know, and so they'll draw a lot of clarity and confidence from that visualization.

But I use it for a lot of a variety of other sort of sources.

That's quite a traditional way to use it.

I use it for actually coping.

So the ethics I work with imagine something not going so well and how they're going to respond to that.

So they visualize themselves responding and how they'll feel when something doesn't go quite right, and then how they want to turn that round or connect with something one of their strengths and then step forward into the next challenge.

So it's not just all visualizing perfect it's visualizing responding to imperfection and responding challenge, responding to setbacks.

But you're not getting to the point where they know the answer to everything if it goes wrong, because you need to you don't know necessarily what's going to happen.

You need to be flexible and they able to adapt to the moment too, don't you.

If they visualize twenty scenarios, they will tend to have the same cluster of things that will help them react.

Right, Okay, cool, So from a practical point of view, what is that like a are you closing your eyes and visualizing it or you're writing it down like what's the most powerful?

So again, depending on the person, so you try and match it.

So most of them will close their eyes and visualize that.

Some of them need like a prompt, so they might use video, watch a bit of video, and then they'll close their eyes and imagine something.

Very dedicated athletes I work with actually record their voices through like an imagery script, so it's their own voice, and then they'll listen to and go, Okay, now you're approaching the breakdown and you're getting low in your like.

They've created their own meditation in a sense.

Yeah, and so, and some of them will go to the degree where rugby players, for example, will have their headgear on that they're wearing, they'll have their mouth guarden while they're listening to their you know, their own kind of guided visualization script.

And they're up with the ball in hand.

Because that all of that stimulates really strong kinesthetic feedback, which makes the brain basically fire as if it was doing it.

Yeah, that's incredible.

So it's not.

Like just like Usain Bolt going I'm going to be in the front.

I'm going to get over that line first with my arms behind me, and everyone else is going to be You've got to do the whole move.

Yeah.

So I can't speak for him, but I can imagine like he would visualize himself just in depth, the sensations of driving up when the gun goes, yeah, and that reaction time, you know, and feeling that I'm never worked in sprinting, but it's like feeling that power threw his legs down to the ground, you know, and all of those things.

It would be very you'd want to create as much century experience with it so that the brain really like replicates what's going on.

It's going to say, you're just creating that repetition, must be creating kind of pathways in the brain so that reaction and things just so familiar.

Yeah.

And then the other really strong area that I prolifically use it in his recovery from injury.

So in two.

Ways, one athletes actually visualizing their whatever the area of their body is that is injured recovering.

So that's an interesting it's quite a bit of research on that.

And then the other one is because they can't get the mental physical reps, and they basically just do mental reps, you know, so they'll imagine themselves training.

So and the Warriors, for example, a lot of the players who are injured will be behind kind of the training session as they're playing, as they're going through their processes, and they'll be kind of standing there but visualizing them in those positions, you know.

So they're not able to physically run or whatever or catchable, but they're getting through the mental reps so when they come back, their decision making is up to general speed.

Yeah, that's really cool.

I love that.

If ever, because a lot of players would get injured, I'm just thinking at schoolboy rugby level, and yeah, some of them I don't want to go to a game, can't play, you know.

Actually they should go to every single training just show up and watch and be involved as much as they can.

Yeah, it depends on the length of injury.

I think sometimes, like what ACLS, for example, you'd probably give them a bit of time because it's a long injury, you know, so being training when too early would be hard.

But as they're starting to run again, definitely, like yeah, sort of from six months on with in an ac L, recovery.

They would be doing as much as many reps as the active players, but they're only just doing mentally.

So as you're as my knee repairs low, I'll come and watch you do trail marathons and I'll be right there.

I'll be ready to go.

If I get a colder, a small injury that I can recover from, I'll just I'll just stay at home and watch other people run mountain marathons and measure myself.

Yeah.

Yeah, and with like you know, VR and things like that.

I was just thinking that, Yeah.

That's been used a little bit in visualization work, and.

It must help even if everything doesn't go as you visualized it, because you know, you've got or do they visualize things like you say, if they visualize a lot of potential outcomes from one.

Yeah, so you know, ebbs and flow it spending on what sports Michael phelps.

He talks a lot about the use of or his use of visualization, and he used to, you know, for example, visualize his goal will coming off, you know, and having to swim blind and then actually finish the race, you know, like not having his eyes open basically, so he visualized those scenarios.

You know what if you know, whatever, something happens if he gets you know, false start and then he asked the thing and how is he going to approach the next start?

And imagine being just as courageous as that first one, not holding back or you know, things like that.

So just all those different scenarios for the different athletes I work with you that they yeah, because you've basically got to manage your load, you know, physical load, and so their mind can supplement that for them if they choose to do so.

I think I might have been misunderstanding manifesting and visualizing.

You're just brilliantly.

Bening.

But it's that serves a purpose because it might be a better motivation, a bit of like you know, like aspiration, I know.

But you get halfway through and go what was I thinking?

Yes, so maybe visualizing when you're in the trend hard and how are you going to move through?

That be a good addition for you.

Have we covered off motivation?

Oh well, we're not born?

Are we born with it?

Are we born with it?

I think there's like there's definitely like a genetic environmental early y air thing.

But I think if someone has the opportunity to find their passion, then motivation is not an issue, right, Yeah, good point.

So maybe you should be questioning your questioning what you're doing if you've seen no motivation to do it, your choices.

I love it.

That's a good party.

That was fascinating.

Thank you so much.

Right the ways, I think we've got to the bottom of visualization, and it's a little bit cooler than I thought it would be.

It's definitely cooler than I thought.

Well, actually it is cool, and it really does answer that question that I said at the art set that of my thing of going, oh, I visualized, I'm going to get to that thing and I'm going to get to the end of it.

It's not a bit more complex than that, no, but you're going to get this clarity and this confidence.

It's going to help with our coping.

I love the fact that I'm going to try and use it for my injury, you know, and sort of help that to you know, use that for as a bit of motivation thing.

So I thought that was great because I'm a bit like you.

I've heard about people talk about it and just sit and visualize it, but I didn't quite understand what you were going to do, Like, yeah, that's how it all sort of worked and unfolded and what the point of it was.

And also there's not one way to do it either, there's several ways.

So you might find me in my running shoes and my running gear, but not out in the hills just visualizing it.

No, I'm an athlete.

I just visualize it.

Yeah, I know the trail running is going great.

Visual I'm visualizing it, you know, weakly.

I'm just looking.

I've written down so many I've written down so many little the facts and the stories.

Love that, Yes, the stories that we el.

Yes, I've got helpful and I'm helpful.

That's that is a really good thing for me.

That's a really nice way to ask yourself.

The question with it, you know what you're doing is yeah, and I think we're done hid for But I didn't make a habit of it.

No, And it's all about that language that you use and how you make the language.

I suppose this a little bit more positive and helpful as opposed to just negative and compassionate.

Yeah, and judge E, So that was I love that as well.

I'm totally I have been really trying this year on dealing with my attention span, and I think we've spoken about this in an episode or two.

I'm just really aware that I'm trying to do everything all at once and respond to this and respond to that, and do this and do that.

And I am going to be a little bit more focused, shall we say, I'm going to dedicate myself that a little bit, like now this is the task.

I like that whole idea of just stopping and prepping and just going, Okay, what is it.

I'm going to do that.

I'm going to do this and do this, set this up so I know, just just coming up with a little routine before launching into And I'm going to take that neive connotation of that word.

I think I've always put a negative connotation on a word compartmentalization.

And yes, she's not negative.

It's a good idea, Like why didn't you like it?

Because it just felt like you were ignoring.

You'd go, I'm just going to put that over here and put this over here and put this over here, and I'm not going to deal with you not deal with all.

Yeah, it's not that you're not dealing with them, it's just at this moment, I'm going to focus on what I need to focus on.

Yeah, Yeah, it was so cool.

You know, I really really enjoyed that, really enjoyed it.

I hope everybody got something out of that from a from a just the fascination of the behind scenes for the athletes, but also for your own own life.

No, have you found a little something that gave you joy?

Yeah?

I visited a friend.

I've been in Christich for some family stuff and I visited a frame while I was there, and I walked in and they just had photographs all over the wolves, like just not a frames, just tacked onto the wall and they just were like, well, it's a really good time.

In the last couple of years, we've gone on quite a few holidays, and we've just had lots of times in our life, so the kids are, you know, lots of events and things, and so my husband just started printing them off going and we house stationary printing them off, sticking them on the wall, and we can just it's not precious.

You can just change them out anytime.

So the next time you come to my house.

I just sat there going, oh wow, it's I'm like and you know, that just beautiful and I it was just a lovely representation of of gratitude.

I guess you know, of the every day of the every day nois of life actually really looking quite beautiful.

Well, and you've just got all these lovely reminders of good times.

It's not it's not what do you call it.

It's not curated, it's just beautiful.

So yeah, whipping mine out of the dusty frames and just sticking them on the wall.

What about you?

Well, after my disastrous week of trying to microdose joy last week, I've had a much better week.

But I've gone back to what I know.

I've gone back to what I know gives me joy.

And for me, music always gives me joy.

Music and left me out of a bad mood.

It can motivate me.

It just makes me feel good.

So and I've talked before about making you know, playlists, your serotonin playlists and things.

Well, as we drove in here today, I had a little concert in my car, windows up because I wouldn't I wouldn't inflict it on anybody else.

I sang my little heart out.

I just had a blast and I was right into it.

And I know at the green lay lights there were a few people look at me going, holy moly, what is that?

Woman doing, and it was absolutely fantastic.

It was a reless kind of gorgeous release.

I just felt good and it happens to be a stunning day to day when we're recording this.

Only problem is it's really not the best thing to do when you talk for a living.

I can feel that I've strayed my voice slightly, which is not idea when you come to record a podcast.

But get in the car.

Whenever I'm in the car, my kids in the car, they roll the radio, yeah, they roll, and I just put my own music.

Give it a try.

We're heading hot today, or if you're heading to work this morning, put some music on, windows on, well, windows down.

If you just want to share the world and sing your little heart out.

I can't sing either, I'm a terrible say and find the hype song.

It was joyful, absolutely joyful.

Right.

If you would like more though, from doctor Kylie Wilson, head to Gainline dot co dot z and you can learn a little bit more there about what she does.

Thank you for joining us on our New Zealand Herald podcast series Little Things.

We hope you share this podcast with the women in your life so we can all be a little bit more focused.

You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and for more episodes from us on other topics, head to z herold dot co dot enz and we'll catch you next time on the Little Things