and i'm reading so fast and it's late at night and i'm tired and i get to the end i get all the way i get to the postlude and i'm i'm bleary -eyed and i'm reading too fast and i think the very first word of the postlude i have the book over there i could pick it up is kalak because that's the the perspective here and it's like kalak awoke or something like that my brain read kaladin in that so i the first time i read it thought the entire postlude was in kaladin's perspective Which, I know what you're thinking.

You're like, but he talks to Kaladin.

That doesn't make sense.

Yes, you're right.

It should not have made any sense.

I was going fast.

And so, in the postlude, Sylphrena is not mentioned by name.

All we get in the postlude is Kalak is looking over at the group of people and he's like, and that's a strange blue -haired woman.

And then moves on.

So I thought that was Kaladin's perspective.

And so that was someone we didn't know because obviously he would know who Syl is.

So I got to the end of the book and I thought the last thing we ever saw of Syl was these words are accepted.

Welcome back to Following No Adonis to My Podcast.

This week is episode 270, and we have finished Wind and Truth.

Elliot, how are you?

How am I?

You ask me how I am after finishing a giant book.

You could hold open an industrial door.

with this that wraps up a five book series of giant books we are we are more than 6 000 pages into this journey i don't know if i can sum that up in in a sentence you're mr non -emotional non -emotional stoic nothing phases you so you should just be feeling completely fine that is my vibe and i am not feeling completely fine I should tell you a lot.

I was going to say back in Oathbringer, I think I did.

I don't remember when, but with one of the big scenes, I think I started our episode simply just like screaming and yelling off screen.

I don't know if that was a long time ago.

And I think I needed to bring that energy to this because absolute craziness.

These are the moments we've waited for, for five plus years.

And yeah, I'm looking forward to getting into this.

I didn't even let you ask me how I'm doing, Trevor, because the answer is not okay.

Not at all okay.

Lots of good, lots to talk about, lots of big moments, especially this episode, some huge moments.

So, yeah.

It's funny you make that comparison, Paul.

I'm going to spoil my two words here, which we're not even close to Trevor asking me for those yet.

We're just getting in.

I know, apparently.

We don't have time to wait for Trevor's questions.

No, no, no.

Because you bring up a great point, actually.

It feels like end of book five, first era of Stormlight, we should be bouncing off the walls with craziness at this point.

And I'm kind of not.

And I'm realizing now that it's because we've, it feels like we've been on, wait for it, a journey.

Like all the way.

We've run the race and we've finished.

And instead of just like this, you know, mind going crazy, it's almost like a, whew.

I'm, I'm feeling spent, not because necessarily like the content of the book, but because I'm done with the book.

And because Stormlight has been such a cornerstone piece of my listening time, my reading time, car rides, you know, whatever.

It's just been a cornerstone.

segment of my life for eight years eight and a half years i think at this point and it feels so weird to be done to have finished and know there's nothing more i know there's a back five but i'm really not thinking about it at all at this point i don't really do i do really feel that i've finished the storm that archive and it's a strange feeling Yeah.

Don't start thinking about the back five because we've, I'm just hoping I get to live to see them all, you know?

Right.

Oh man.

But okay.

Without that.

Go ahead.

Trevor, you're not asking questions.

Stop.

I was going to say, you guys are completely throwing my format out the window.

Go ahead.

Take the floor.

We're getting rid of it.

I was going to go ahead and announce before we forget, because we have a lot to discuss this week.

We have a patron and I, we can't go without shouting out our patron.

Very excited.

Cool episode to be featured on.

I have to say great timing and it's none other than cannoli, which might.

Camera went blurry, but cannoli, not the stealing Elliot.

He made a joke about this earlier.

Not the dessert cannoli.

I spoke quite differently, but cannoli is a surgeon here, and we are very grateful for your support.

Alex, my wife, actually just bought this mug this week because she knew I needed another mug, and it has a little croissant on it.

It's like a seal that.

like a house seal, if you will, but it's a croissant instead of some cool combative emblem or animal or something.

So I hope you like croissants, cannoli.

I also feel like that's fitting.

We have a croissant and a cannoli on the same mug.

I digress.

Thank you so much for your support.

I'm going to reject your pronunciation and say thank you, cannoli.

And I have no idea how it's pronounced.

But it could be either way.

I got hung up.

It's my fault.

I'm going to say Kino Lee.

Thank you, regardless of how your name is said.

Let us know which one of us is correct, or if we're all wrong.

I bet it's...

No, I don't even know.

Maybe it's like Elvish.

Kinolee.

Yeah, Kinolee.

Okay, I need to reference my outline because we've completely thrown off my normal groove.

Structure.

Yeah.

I mean, if you want to, go ahead and give us a brief summary of what happened.

To backtrack a little bit, we covered 143 all the way to the end credits for this episode, for anyone following along.

And we are only doing today Kaladin and Dalinar and extremely relevant information within those two plot lines.

Yeah.

Tomorrow will be not necessarily part two of this episode, but tomorrow will be released the following episode of everybody else.

So both today and tomorrow, there will be a episode released.

And today is all of the big stuff.

And tomorrow is all of the follow along content.

Not necessarily saying it's not big stuff, but there are really.

Really big things, I think, in this one.

Also, I'm sure if you're listening, you've already finished the book, but I would once again urge we're not doing the next four chapters or something.

We're going through the end of the book.

So if you haven't finished one in truth, stop here and come back once you have.

Correct.

And the reason why we're doing this is because there's extremely relevant information about these characters on the last page of the book, quite literally the last page of the book.

So we're going to talk about that.

Go finish the book.

All right.

Over to you, Elliot.

What do you got?

All right.

I'm going to try and summarize real briefly what's going on here.

I'm going to try not to get sucked into any discussion because there's a lot of really big stuff here.

So this is super high level.

If you've read the book in the last six months, you probably remember this because it's the events at the very end of the book.

But here we go.

Chapters 143 all the way through the end, the epilogue, the postlude, all of it.

I'm just going to touch on mainly Dalinar, Kaladin, Zeth.

A little bit of Taravangian.

Chapter 143, Zeth is still battling against the evil puppet honor bearers, and he specifically faces Naturo.

And we kind of get the conclusion as Zeth kills Naturo and frees him.

And Nightblood is destroying everything, but Kaladin is able to encourage him to not, so he doesn't.

We then pan over to Dalinar.

who does the thing he breaks all of his oaths and his contracts and his bonds he is no longer bonded with honor who he just bonded recently and frees honor up odium takes up the power of honor becomes retribution kills the storm father and then realizes Oh shoot, maybe I should not have done that, because all the rest of the shards in the Cosmere now care a lot more about me than they did before.

In the midst of all this, cultivation flees, the Highstorm goes away, the Everstorm starts to take over everything.

We jump back to, oh, I should mention, the term Night of Sorrows starts to get used a lot.

It comes up a bunch in these chapters.

We seem to be in the Night of Sorrows.

We jump back to Kaladin, and he steps up to help the Heralds reform the Oath Pact, and does so.

He steps into Yezrian's shoes, takes on the role of Herald.

They name him Herald, and they seal the Oath Pact, which holds back some of Retribution so that he does not destroy Spren and other things.

We'll talk about it.

Syl's very heavily involved in this.

Zeth is kind of knocked out on the ground, barely surviving here.

Retribution realizes Dalinar's put him in a tough spot, and he's really mad about it.

But there's not much he can do.

He now is bound by Honor.

So he has to stick with oaths and contracts that he's made, or Honor is going to reject him.

like it's done in the past.

And he tries to go and kill Dalinar.

Dalinar's already dead.

Dalinar dies on the top of the tower, shielding Gavenor.

So to get revenge on him, Retribution goes to grab his soul, to bring him back, to torture him, to resurrect him into a fused, and fails to hold on to Dalinar's soul.

Dalinar's soul escapes, slips through his grasp.

and disappears into the great beyond his soul was claimed by another oh yeah so that oh yeah that term is fascinating i specifically noted that and then you know so you're sucking me into this we got to keep to the summary summary sorry i couldn't i could resist retribution is not done retribution go goes into the spiritual realm something finds the memory of the black thorn And brings that back.

And is somehow going to maybe have the Blackthorn lead his armies anyway?

Even though Dalinar has died and his soul has very clearly and specifically gone into the Great Beyond.

Dalinar's gone.

And yet, Taravangian is still going to somehow have the Blackthorn under his command?

We'll see.

All right, that got me through about Chapter 145.

Chapter 146.

doesn't really have any Kaladin and Dalaran things.

I don't think just came in and it's real fast.

I don't think so.

Oh, Seth wakes up.

That's what happens in chapter one 46.

He wakes up.

What the heck?

Where'd everybody go?

They're all gone.

Kaladin's body is actually there.

Kaladin's body is dead.

Kaladin has become a Herald.

He's gone off, made the oath pack.

They get sucked off into another place.

We'll see them again in a second.

But Seth wakes up and all he sees is Kaladin's dead body who he buries and moves on with his life.

Pretty much takes nightblood.

Chapter one 47.

He gets married.

Yes.

Chapter 147 is the last chapter of the book, and we just start to kind of wrap up everybody's storylines.

So we jumped to a lot of different people, and the only one I'm going to mention here, because the rest we're going to hit tomorrow in our next episode, is the only one we're going to hit now is Taravangian.

So the very end of chapter 147, the last thing we see before we get to the epilogue, Taravangian retreats into the spiritual realm and visits Karbroth.

yeah not not a like made up recreation of carbron like actually all the people that he secretly whisked away before he killed them all surprise then we get to the epilogue and it's all hoid so much more of that yet but the postlude oh my goodness the postlude the wrap -up of stormlight era one is from Kallax's perspective, but it features Kaladin.

Kaladin is there with all the heralds.

Syl is there, and they are going to all heal together so that they can come back and save the world later.

The end.

That's all.

Just a quick summary.

Just a couple things to talk about.

Yeah, that's less than half of it because that's only four of our characters.

Sure, yes.

Paul?

Where would you like to start?

Because if we start with Dalinar, or if we start with Zeth and Kaladin, there is two different ways we have to start this.

I'm honored to get to choose.

Thank you, Trevor.

I think it's best that we start with Kaladin and Zeth, because I think what I'm most looking forward to talking about is Dalinar and Terravangian, but...

Someone quote him.

Big Seth guy.

There's crazy stuff in this episode, okay?

And I think it's better to save that for the end.

So I think we should start talking about Kaladin and Seth.

I know we made our bingo boards way back when now.

I don't think anyone had...

now they're becoming a herald did they that wasn't on i think so or is that getting married yeah getting married was definitely i did not realize that it's a quick mention in like an epigraph right yeah so to start the zeth and calvin stuff where you actually need to start with the epigraphs uh but go ahead okay i was gonna say i didn't even catch this at first And then going back, of course, I read this multiple times.

Going back, I was like, hold the phone.

Like, Zeth is married at the time of the writing of Nights of Wind and Truth.

That's crazy.

So there we go.

Zeth is married happily ever after.

There we go.

That I did not expect.

If I were picking from the start of this book.

If I were picking a character, one of our heroes that I thought would die or would die a dramatic, bittersweet, fulfilling death, Zeth was my top guess, maybe second.

I mean, there's several characters who could do that, but Zeth was up there.

So I was surprised he got the happy ending.

But, okay, lots to talk about.

I think we should talk about Kaladin and...

perhaps this new oath pack herald first i think that's exciting we get essentially a well hold on i need us to start with the epigraphs epigraphs yes which leads us into zeph so okay we'll start with the epigraphs starting with chapter 143 all the way through 147 i believe is the end of the book at the end of these epigraphs and it reads as follows On that day, the night of truth did not save us from the evil that had been prophesied, but from the evil brought by the prophesier.

And now we reach the part of the narrative where I can but speculate, as my witnesses were both unconscious.

I can only guess what happened, therefore, to the night of wind.

That he is dead is demonstrable.

That he succeeded, at least in part, is also demonstrable.

But it was not a complete success.

as I have not heard the wind, neither has Zeth, in years, save that one whisper.

Regardless, she lives, so perhaps the oath pact, as it was, held well enough?

Even without Zeth to fill the hole?

Or perhaps, as champion of the wind, Kaladin was able to do something in the end right before he died, which turned Retribution's ire away from the Spren.

This account will not be without flaws.

But it is the best I have been able to create from available information, and from the witness of my husband, Zeth, and the witness of the black sword he bears.

For I myself helped him bury the Knight of Wind's body the day after Stormfall, the day that everything changed.

From Knights in Wind and Truth, an account of the cleansing of Shinovar by Masha Dadar Shaliv, six years following Stormfall.

Page 292.

What'd you get, Paul?

So, this was briefly mentioned earlier, but Zeth and excuse me, Masha's daughter, Shaliv, are under the assumption that Kaladin is dead.

True.

I think that's kind of a big deal.

Obviously.

That's a big deal because we know he's not dead.

They are under the assumption he was able to somehow draw Odium's wrath, but I don't know if they understand that it had to be the Oath Pact still or what.

It's maybe a little fuzzy on what they know, don't know.

Obviously, from their perspective, they can't have those answers.

But I imagine those answers will come up in the back half.

We're not speculating on the back half now, but that's the direction we seem to be heading.

From what I can gather, not only do they make the assumption that Kaladin is dead, rather, understandably, since they bury Kaladin, but I think they make the assumption that the oath pact has failed.

That there is no oath pact because Zeth wasn't there to help them make it.

and that everybody just got wiped before they were able to make the oath pact.

So they don't know why the Spren are still here, but they're like, maybe Kaladin did something before he died that helped, which, I mean, depending on your definitions, is correct.

But I think it's really interesting, both in the Kaladin side and in the Dalinar side, that...

the world is left with a different impression of what happened than the reader is.

I think that's really, really cool, and we can talk about it more later.

But Roshar assumes both Kaladin and Dalinar failed, which I think is really cool.

We might want to also talk about Nightblood here.

So Nightblood has several big moments, which I wasn't expecting Nightblood to have these big moments, but so...

Backing up a little bit.

Before Kaladin dies.

And before all this happens.

Nightblood is unleashed.

And is consuming everything it can.

Right?

That's what Nightblood does.

And he ends up.

I think.

Trevor and Elliot.

Y 'all had this in the outline a bit.

About.

Does Nightblood get ideals?

Yeah.

Nightblood.

swears his first ideal of I am not a thing I'm like okay what is going on Nightblood exactly and Nightblood comes to this conclusion where he stops draining things and says I will not hurt my friends and that's some really cool development from a sword there from a sword especially not one of our like shard blades that are also a spren you know Nightblood is obviously extremely personified, you know, like a conscious thing.

But he's not one of our spren where we see like a humanoid version of him.

Like he's still just a sword that's just imbued.

And so seeing that in development was really, really neat.

It makes me excited for.

I've always wanted to to maybe see.

where Nightblood is tamed or controllable, where you can consume things and have the awe -inspiring power that Nightblood wields, but not at the cost of your life, you know?

Like a control to the chaos.

And I'm expecting that's where we're headed with the future of Nightblood, wherever he continues to end up.

But yeah, I thought that was pretty crazy.

Zeth is missing his arm and shoulder from Nightblood and from this whole situation, so it came at a cost.

But Zeth even mentions at the end that it was very worth the cost.

Losing an arm, losing a limb, it's nothing compared to surviving and getting through this.

For the record, I don't actually think.

nightblood has sworn an ideal i just wanted to put that out there that that was a joke i don't think nightblood is a night radiant just just wanted to clear the air elliot what do you think i thought that was a a little bit surprising twist because caledon and zeth have both made big leaps in these last couple of chapters so you're kind of left with you know oh what next And you've, at least me, I've kind of forgotten about Nightblood.

I mean, he's center of this picture, right?

But you don't really expect the sword to have a developmental moment in the middle of all this.

And then he does.

And apparently Nightblood's been listening to Kaladin this whole time as Kaladin has been coaching and counseling and therapizing Zeth.

I need to stop using that verbization of that word.

nightblood's been listening the whole time in the outline therapizing i know because i still cannot find the right verb for that term i feel like someone actually pointed out to me i was like oh yeah but i've forgotten already so therapize nightblood's been listening he reacts he grows he develops he moves past his soul mantra of destroy evil and moves on to i'm not a thing i will not store my friends kind of cool actually a little surprising not what i was expecting minor warbreaker spoilers incoming how deep down this nightblood resolution do we want to go here because if you actually stop to think about what just happened it gets really weird really fast nightblood is awakened in or at least referenced to this in Warbreaker, that we awoke him and said, destroy evil.

That's his awakening calling.

In Warbreaker, you talk to things and tell it to do something, and that's its purpose.

Happened to Nightblood.

Go destroy evil.

He goes to Roshar with Zael, presumably.

And after three and a half books or so, comes to the conclusion that he is not a thing i don't know if that's just roshar rubbing off on him and if you think about something for long enough then it like gets its own independent thought or what but if you actually stop to think about the implications of an awakened object actually having independent thought and not just reciprocating words that is its awakened command capital c command it actually gets really weird really fast like could you could the same thing happen to a chair like you know if we if a chair spends enough time on our char can it get up and say i'm not a thing like what is actually going on here does it have to do with how that hilarious by the way first of all I now want a Nightblood equivalent of a Lazy Boy rocking chair.

Maximum comfort, I'm sure.

I imagine it has to do with how invested Nightblood is.

Because isn't what we know about Nightblood is he's just extremely invested.

He was awakened, but he's really...

invested right where like way beyond another commanded item right i don't know if it's ever actually been defined i'm i'm pretty rusty on nightblood lore i'll be honest but i think the special thing about nightblood is it consumes investiture not it uses investiture like everything else in the cosmere uses investiture but nightblood specifically consumes it and expels something else which is unique i don't know where to take you with that but i think that's the specifics with nightblood i think the way i'm trying to wrap my head around it is in some senses i think zeth no sorry not zeth nightblood is not all that different from silfrenna you're right inanimate object gets invested that is awakened That invested object, so the investiture basically becomes self -aware.

That's kind of what Syl is.

Syl is just investiture.

She's a splinter of a shard.

It's probably more complicated than that.

Probably a lot more complicated than that.

But thinking back to when we first met Syl and she couldn't even...

talk or form full thoughts and kind of as she started to become more and more and more self -aware she became more and more and more a person and an identity and things like that nightblood has gone on a very different journey but i'm thinking this is kind of maybe the same thing of both are self -aware investiture okay i can uh i can follow that i can yeah i'm sure there's a nightblood expert who will set us straight in the comments as well please do so if that is you um because you're right it's been a long time since i've read warbreaker and yeah there's probably something i'm missing with it um speaking of let's should we talk about sill here so yeah one thing i wanted to point out is What is it?

So after this, this is jumping ahead.

Maybe we can come back, but just a moment that still has that really has stuck with me.

Is so after honor is.

Retribute part of retribution.

I think it's after that.

Is it Kaladin who says something?

And then it's still who says these words are accepted.

Yeah, she does.

Is that is that when the.

Oath pact is formed.

I'm questioning when exactly those words are spoken.

She accepts his oath of I accept this journey.

And I think it's Nail.

Nail says, that's not what we said.

That's not the oath.

And Kaladin says, it doesn't matter.

And then Syl's like, these words are accepted.

And I thought that was neat because we've always known her to be She had a title, didn't she?

Daughter of Storms, I believe was her title.

Daughter of something.

Yeah, I just always knew it was daughter with the assumption that she's almost like a princess or like daughter of Honor, ancient daughter.

Yeah, something like that.

It was always kind of this notion that she was kind of like a Honor's princess, if you will, in my head.

In my head, it makes sense that after Honor and the Stormfather were...

Essentially not there.

That she would.

Have that authority.

Within that like power scheme.

Felt really cool to me.

And like instantly made sense.

And I just thought that was a neat.

Neat tidbit.

And right when.

The Stormfather slash Tana Vast gets zapped.

Which we'll talk about in a little bit here.

She.

The very next scene gets a royal.

Ball gown.

And wears it for the rest of the book.

She is like his queen at that point, which I think was interesting.

Wow.

So I got to admit, I made a mistake while reading, and it absolutely terrified me until Trevor, I think it was you, saved me in our Discord.

I was reacting to the book live as I was reading it, which got pretty intense as I was going through these last chapters.

It was pretty late at night.

close to midnight as i'm trying to you know get through these chapters because i can't put it down and i'm reading so fast and it's late at night and i'm tired and i get to the end i get all the way i get to the postlude and i'm i'm bleary -eyed and i'm reading too fast and i think the very first word of the postlude i have the book over there i could pick it up is kalak because that's the the perspective here and it's like kalak a woke or something like that my brain read kaladin in that so i the first time i read it thought the entire postlude was in Kaladin's perspective, which I know what you're thinking.

You're like, but he talks to Kaladin.

That doesn't make sense.

Yes, you're right.

It should not have made any sense.

I was going fast.

And so in the postlude, Sylphrena is not mentioned by name.

All we get in the postlude is Kalak is looking over at the group of people, and he's like, and that's a strange blue -haired woman, and then moves on.

So I thought that was Kaladin's perspective.

And so that was someone we didn't know because obviously he would know who Syl is.

So I got to the end of the book and I thought the last thing we ever saw of Syl was these words are accepted.

And I literally put the book down and was like, wait, what happened to Syl?

And then Trevor, you responded back to me in my library.

You're like, well, she was in the end.

So I went back and read it, and I was like, oh, yeah.

Okay, there she is.

Happily ever after.

We're good.

We're fine.

It's all good.

That's got to be one of the most pivotal misreads to read that from the perspective of Mrs.

Kaladin.

It's bad.

Who doesn't trust anyone and is forgiven by Taln and all these things.

It was weird.

Yeah, that puts a new perspective on things for sure.

Made way more sense the second time around.

Yeah, absolutely.

I want to know, let's talk about Kaladin as a herald.

So when the moment comes down to it, it's not Zeth who takes Yezrian's place, but it is Kaladin.

I just want to know simply your thoughts on the matter.

Do you like it?

Are you excited to have herald Kaladin?

Do you think it's, is it something you were kind of expecting?

Is it something you don't like?

I just want to know your raw thoughts on Harold Caledon all the way through.

Like he's here by the proverbial campfire on a law swap, by the way, apparently.

So yeah, there's another big thing for you.

All right.

You ready?

Here we go.

I think Shalon would be incredibly proud of Caledon.

Because Kaladin pulls the Shallan and says, there's part of myself.

I'm going to absorb that.

There's part of myself.

I'm going to absorb that.

And as I was listening to it, I'm like, did Kaladin secretly become a Lightweaver somewhere in his past?

Like, what is going on here?

He saw a boy, Kal, who stood up for Tien.

and he stepped through that because that was part of him and then he stepped through the wretch and he stepped through the captain of the guard and i'm like and then radiant and formless are gonna show up and stab him or something i don't like i just thought it was really funny that we had the same like i am all of these things that i feel like calvin had already been through all of this and done this and it it would make for a cool visual I don't think it really fit the picture.

Now, to really answer your question, Kaladin becoming the herald to take the place of Zeth, to take the place of Yezrian, I'm a fan.

I think it's good.

Because Kaladin's correct that Zeth chose at the end, I'm going to make my own decisions.

I'm going to not fight.

even though he was prepared, even though he was prepared by Ishar, by Nail, by whoever else you want to throw in the pile, to be this Herald, and he could have successfully.

Kaladin said his choice was not to fight.

And if we're really doing this Herald thing, we need to be able to fight.

And I'm pretty good at that.

So...

Let's go.

Sign me up.

I thought it was good.

I was quite surprised to see Kaladin live to be a major player in the back half, it seems, which we can talk about at a later date or today.

I don't care.

I was very surprised, but I thought it was good.

I want to add.

The scene that you mentioned of him walking through, like going through all the past versions of himself, seeing all these things that have made him who he is today.

One, to add to your joke about Shallan, yes, it's like Kaladin had Shallan's entire books of story on one page.

He just spedrun that.

But the first time I read through this...

I did not even like get the visuals of this.

Like I was still probably like thinking through trying to figure out what's going on with the contest of champions.

What's all going, like what's going down with this, trying to wrap my head around it.

Then I went back and reread this and it's one of, I think one of the coolest moments throughout the end of this book.

I agree.

I just needed to make a joke about it.

Yes, no, absolutely.

It's very joke worthy.

And I do agree that if this were ever on screen, this would be that moment that you would get chill bumps.

Like, you would love...

It emphasizes...

I thought it was neat how much it emphasized the eyes again with these.

That's way back.

That was like a...

I haven't worried about eye color since like the way of Kings, you know, that was a huge deal.

Right.

Right.

And then his eyes turn blue or whatever.

And then here at the end, his eyes turned back to Brown or whatever.

Right.

Like he's a dark eyes again.

But they mentioned of like eyes of red and gold and eyes of like blue and like all this stuff visually, I bet you could make something extremely striking with that.

And going back and rereading through this a bit slower and a bit.

more looking deep into things this hit a lot harder i bet this would be even better on like a reread than the initial read but yeah i i also i agree with you and i'm i'm adding my my two cents into that but yeah elliot what were you thinking about this whole kaladin herald i have a question for you guys actually because I think I saw the scene we're talking about here with the visions of his past selves rather differently, which I'll talk about in a second.

But in addition to that, because I feel like I need to ask you guys this now, what were your reactions to the return of honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do?

Did that land for you?

I hope you wouldn't ask this.

Absolutely not.

Okay.

It was, I...

I heard it, and I'm like, fine.

I will give it a pass, but I did not enjoy it.

The lines that have been brought back, I made a whole tangent last week.

I don't think our episode is even released yet.

I could be wrong about You Will Be Warm Again, and how that's not...

That's not my favorite quote, and bringing it back up was once again not my favorite.

Honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do back in Words of Radiance.

It's awesome.

Epic.

Such a good line.

Such a great line.

Epic.

10 out of 10.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

It felt like a resale of it here.

And yeah, it didn't have the weight.

I didn't hate it.

I didn't have like a reaction to it, but it did not have the impact that it did back then.

It did not have the same impact.

I feel the same.

I feel the same.

Those two moments, which happen mere paragraphs away from each other, landed very differently for me.

The images of his past selves.

worked really well for me.

I was totally imagining exactly what that would look like.

I thought that was cool.

I didn't even think of Shalon in the moment, actually.

I think later on, the comparisons maybe are absolutely there.

But like my first time through, I was just in the moment there with Kaladin and thinking back all the way to all these things he's been on.

I thought that was super cool.

But then the, yeah, honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do.

I had a similar reaction to you, Trevor.

It's a little eye -rolly.

And I can't honestly explain too well why.

Yeah, well, it needed to be a callback without explicitly saying it.

It needed to be like, yes, Honor's dead, but we can still do something.

Or something like that.

It needed to build on the, we can still have self.

We can still make decisions to help the world, even though honor is dead.

Yeah.

Without saying honors that I'll see what I can do.

If he reprised it somehow, if it was somehow like a clear callback to that, but somehow new and different.

I agree.

I feel like that would have worked a little bit better at the way it is now.

Like, can you, can you actually imagine someone, you know, that's not Lopin like getting up and.

throwing out their favorite catch line as they do to save the world.

Like no, no serious person does that.

I appreciate the acceptance for Lopin.

Cause yeah, I could see that happening, but Wayne would do that.

Yeah, I, I agree.

I honestly think it was kind of funny because it's your title on the, on your, under your name, Elliot.

But I literally think if it was a situation where Kaladin thinks even to himself, like honor is dead.

And then you have the dialogue in the moment of him stepping forward and doing things like that would probably be better than blurting out the catchphrase.

It's like a Sonic the Hedgehog moment where he gets up and is like, gotta go fast.

Exactly.

I know that's your slogan, but you don't have to always announce it.

In any Stormlight computer game or video game of any kind, right?

Every time you click on Calvin, he says this, right?

This is like the...

Exactly.

Every time you move him across the map.

I'll see what I can do.

Every time.

You're so right.

For the Bridgeware.

Honor's dead, but I'll see what I can do.

Yeah, exactly.

So aside from that, that's a good question, Elliot.

What are your...

What's your opinion on Kaladin, Harold?

Is it something that you were excited to see, happy to see, not expecting, not happy to see for Kaladin's character throughout this story?

I think overall this is great.

We're nitpicking, we're laughing at a few of the small things, but I think overall this as a character arc is actually pretty fantastic.

I would not have guessed this from the start, and it landed in a lot of the right ways.

Maybe there's a few parts of this that I would have done differently.

Yeah, maybe not the cheesy catch line, but Kaladin, Herald of Kings, Herald of Wind, Herald of Second Chances.

That almost could be cheesy, and yet it's not.

There's enough baked into that.

If you've taken this journey seriously, and it's been a journey.

from the beginning so far we've come with calvin so far to be in this moment here where he has gone through so much he's lost so much he's battled all the mental demons and here he is stepping into he literally puts on the robe he literally goes to his pack and pulls out the cloak puts it on stands up The wind blowing in his hair.

Right after Dalinar dies, he goes and picks up Dalinar's cloak and puts it on.

Whips out this honor spear that he gets and steps into the role of the Herald of Second Chances.

I accept this journey.

I think I love that.

Yeah, and I have to agree.

This is like...

This and, spoiler alert, Dalinar are my two...

favorite things about the wrap -up of this book.

To throw a bit of a contrarian opinion into the ring, I have some complaints with the end of this book.

But Kaladin's and Dalinar's endings are not my complaints.

What about Zeth?

Is Zeth falling asleep on the field of battle an issue for you?

Yes and no.

I think my overall complaint was I wanted a bit more finality with a lot of our characters.

Everyone is kind of left on a cliffhanger except for Kaladin and Dalinar.

They're the only ones who have a bit of finality to where we are leaving them.

No, just Dalinar.

Kaladin is a big question mark.

Let's talk about it real quick.

What is Kaladin going to be doing in the back half?

Oh, I think it's very clear.

I think it's very clear.

I think we're going to try and dissect the whole time dilation thing maybe in our next episode.

Right.

We'll talk about that more later.

I think in the opening scenes of Stormlight Era 2, the Heralds return.

And that is the setting of our back half.

Roshar has gone through 10 years of...

and trying to get used to how do we live in this new retribution world, everstorms everywhere, yada, yada, yada.

And then scene one, Stormlight Era two is, and the Heralds were back.

And then we launch into the whole new journey of how do we bring down retribution with the help of the new Heralds, which are mostly still the same old Heralds.

I think I would agree with that.

I think we are going, I think his purpose, is going to be that we are going to see the Heralds in all their glory.

I've been waiting forever for that, and I am going to wait forever longer.

Got bad news for you.

Definitely not done waiting, if that is going to be the case.

But yeah, I could see him like a new age of the Heralds.

The Heralds that are not ripped to shreds.

mentally not there you know like a restored a new new season for the heralds i think that's largely going to be his purpose um but trevor i want to briefly go back that the reason i would say that kaladin has finality less finality than dalinar of course but finality in that we see in the postlude where he is and what he's doing and kind of a peaceful He's kind of in the most peaceful situation of anybody here at the time being.

And spoiler alert, my one, I guess, more major complaint with this book is I, the ending of this book is that I was expecting more of a finality and resolution.

I didn't expect things to be hunky -dory.

Everyone is hanging out.

at home with sunny skies and everything, but seeing where all of our characters kind of are, like we're kind of left with Zeth is passing out.

And then we, we get a clue that he's married now because of the, what's it called?

The epigraph.

And, but most of our characters are left in limbo.

Shallan's still stuck in Shadesmar.

We'll talk about that more tomorrow or at the spiritual realm.

um our other characters people have not made it back yet people are dipping off world but we don't really know what's happening so anyways i digress we'll get to all of that later but that's kind of my two -pronged comment i'm all for harold caledon i think it's awesome i think him and dalinar have amazing conclusions and fulfillments of the stories that we've been following this whole time caledon still has a lot to give i anticipate But I think we opened the book with Dalinar, sorry, with Kaladin in The Way of Kings, and we are closing it here with a bit of conclusion as to where he is in his status.

Feels extremely complete, which is awesome.

It's good.

I have no complaints.

I think it's one of the best character story I've seen.

Absolutely wonderful.

Yeah.

Do y 'all have any other thoughts on Kaladin or Kaladin and Zeph?

I have one more thought on Zeth specifically.

I want to get out there.

I was, we said this already surprised that he survived, but I'm, I'm totally buying all that story.

I think Zeth off to heal the shin people and write the skybreakers.

Super cool.

I'm excited for that.

What left me barely unsatisfied though, was the resolution with his father.

We didn't get, I feel like, time to resolve what the heck was going on with Nitoro.

Nitoro was so the straight and narrow guy.

And then, oh, surprise, he's an honor bearer.

How the heck did that happen?

Oh, I don't know.

And then Zeth frees him from his tortured servitude to Ishar, and now he's free.

Like, wait a second.

What happened there?

What happened to Naturo?

Where did all that go down?

Also, like, 45 seconds before we cure Ishar.

Yeah.

Like, we could have cured Ishar and then actually talked to Naturo and then maybe killed him.

But we didn't.

We just killed Naturo.

Well, I'm going to talk about this in our book retrospective.

I feel like the end of this book was very rushed.

I now am dreaming that 10 years from now, Brandon will release the wind and truth extended version because I guarantee you there are more notes there.

There, there are more notes of stuff that happened in here.

And he went to the publisher and the publisher was like, no, sorry.

I physically cannot bind that many pages.

It does not physically work.

The brook will break apart.

And I think stuff in here got cut.

There's more.

I think there's got to be more.

There's got to be more.

I would like to add on to this.

I think what you're saying, Elliot, is largely how I felt at the end of this book.

Obviously, it's at this grand, big scale, and there's lots of things happening, but I didn't want...

Yeah, I didn't...

I mentioned how we opened the book with Kaladin.

Right?

We also briefly opened the book with Zeth, right?

And he's a mystery for a long time.

But this book, we really dive into Zeth hard.

Like, really hard.

It's his book.

We get lots of flashback, which have been amazing.

And yeah, I wasn't very fulfilled with...

Naturo dies, he passes out the end.

I...

It doesn't have to be anything amazing.

We don't have to see the wedding.

That's going to be off screen, of course.

We already know that.

But just like, I don't know, him walking out and, I don't know, looking up at the stars or seeing sheep or, I don't know, something.

Obviously, things are a bit crazy right now.

But just some internal dialogue of his.

state of mind and where he's going and something like that, it felt quite unfulfilling to me for this to be the end of book five, which I guess I was expecting more finality at the end of book five instead of it being still just a very much a middle book, I would say.

But I digress.

We still have big fish to fry in this episode.

But that's kind of my two cents.

So that's the only reason.

If we had those moments, I could probably be coming in here saying Zeth's ending was my favorite still.

But compared to Kaladin and Dalinar, he wasn't.

And it almost hurts me to say it.

I've stuck so loyally by Zeth.

And if you're watching the video, you can see my title this week is that I'm a groomsman at Zeth's wedding.

So not canonical, but I can dream.

After your joke there of Zeth's wedding being offscreen, I can't get over that.

Okay, Brandon, you are not beating the allegations of you hate putting wedding scenes in your books.

Because yes, you went back and did Shallan and Adolin's, because I'm sure enough people gave you grief about that.

But you added not one, but two weddings in this book.

Off screen, not only did Zeth get married, but Sabariel and Polona got married off screen in this book.

That's insane.

Sorry, I just needed to dwell on that for a second because I didn't realize that until you said that.

He needs content for future Dragonsteel Nexus ball events.

Give him a break.

He's saving those for in person.

That is true.

You are factual with that.

And he has to have that happen before he can write it in.

Exactly.

All right.

Shall we talk about Dalinar?

I believe it's time to talk about Dalinar.

Dare we talk about the man Dalinar?

All righty.

He purposely gives up honor.

Like I said, he would last week.

You all may apologize now.

Thank you.

And he doesn't kill honor like I thought he would last week.

I will put it that way.

But he...

Abandons his oaths.

All of them.

He's very explicit.

He says it over and over.

Everything's gone.

Your contracts with Odium.

My contracts with the Stormfather.

Everything is dissolved.

And Honor's like, how could you?

And then Dalinar says, go.

Go and remember me.

And Honor goes to Taravangian.

And Dalinar does it on purpose.

And I think it's really, really cool.

hoi doesn't think it's very cool to start and then he comes around later which we'll talk about next week but what you guys think well let's let's get out of the way i have to eat my hat or whatever it was because i i fought you pretty hard on this one and i said specifically that there was no possible way given the development we had just seen in the noah don thing it's all right you both have an apology coming tomorrow and we all know what we all we i was about to say we're Calling it even.

We will.

It's going to be a draw at the end of the day.

But you called it on the nose.

On the nose.

I cannot believe this.

We've spent the entire book.

The entire book going after this.

How does Dalinar ascend to the Shard of Honor to take up the power that he needs to fight against Terra Vangian?

And he does.

He gets the Shard of Honor.

He understands who Honor is.

He gets the power, he ascends, and three minutes later, breaks that bond.

Wild.

I would never have guessed that in a million years.

Even given the line we got that you were going off of, Trevor, of, you know, I renounce my oaths or whatever.

Even after that, I was thinking there's no way.

There's no way, and yet he does.

Fascinating.

Oh, one thing I want to add.

I know we're doing our bingo conversation later, but Trevor, did you catch a sneaky hint?

I did.

I did.

I'll bring it up.

I'll bring it up in three weeks.

I did see it.

I absolutely saw it.

But I caught on to it, and I was going to help you out if you didn't.

Anyways.

I absolutely saw it.

Yeah.

Crazy day.

Anyways.

going to it so you're right so we now have this new shard this new entity retribution taravangian no longer totium he's tetribution i guess yeah rest in peace totium totium was such a perfect word and we throw it out the window thanks thanks brandon we now have tetribution which is a little harder but i think it'll stick i'm gonna start retrovangian retro yeah there we go okay yeah i i gotta shout out brandon super quick here because i think on this podcast a long time ago we threw out the oh what if honor and odium were to combine what would you get for your combined chart i'm sure this was after you know the misborn stuff spoilers misborn that uh we we saw shards combine over in misborn so i'm like oh honor and odium all that would never happen what would that shard combine be named and i don't think we could come up with anything i think we're like oh honor and odium what just war death whatever right retribution how do we not think of this he's yes that's the perfect combination yeah yeah of course it would be retribution or revenge retribution is probably just a little more pompous so it fits better yeah yeah it's way way better of a title than revenge would be Retribution.

I remember looking up the word right after.

I don't have the definition in front of me.

I'm going to pull it up.

It's just exactly what this is.

It's like a punishment or inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act.

Essentially, if you break your oath with honor, Odium gets to come in with a big hammer.

Essentially, that's what it is.

That's exactly what it is.

I did not see this coming.

This is a big flip.

listening, reading this, it took me a second to even get my bearings as to what's happening.

For a split second, I thought Dalinar had retribution, and I was like, that can't be.

It took me a second.

There's a lot going on and a lot of...

You really gotta know your Cosmere mechanics, I feel like, to read this.

That's true.

Read this scene.

But yeah.

Yeah.

I have some thoughts on this scene.

So, when we get the I renounce my oaths, Odium's like, you did what?

And then Dalinar's like, take it, Terravangian.

I know you will.

And then Terravangian turns to it, turns to Honor, takes Honor, gets Retribution.

I was like, that's really cool.

I was not wowed by it, and I'll tell you why.

Because of last week, I was not, absolutely not, expecting Retribution to last more than three pages.

I thought Daravangian was not making it out of the book, let alone into the rest of the Cosmere.

So, at the end of the book...

at the post loot or as i was entering the post loot i was like hold on no this is actually roshar's state i i didn't think i thought there was still yet another twist coming of but wit stabs him and both shards break or something like that and you know all the shards are gone off roshar that's where i thought this was going and not the eternal night of sorrows you know, all that stuff that we'll talk about more tomorrow.

But Retribution, it was not until my second listen to this that I really sat and considered Retribution as a shard moving forward because I didn't think he was lasting more than three paragraphs.

I thought he'd like rip himself apart from the inside or something, but he didn't.

So yeah, Retribution, here we go.

And I think I said this.

So Trevor, when you threw out that theory of, oh my goodness, he is going to cut his bond with honor and honors can be dead.

My response to that was no way, because that would release odium into the cosmere.

I was ready for that, but I wasn't ready for odium to actually be released.

I thought odium was going to be dead.

And that's exactly what happens.

And Dalinar knows it.

Dalinar knows.

He's doing exactly that.

And he has a term for it.

I think Dalinar even says that.

He's like, ha, I hit you with the Sunmaker's Gambit.

Yeah.

Speaking of catchphrases.

Felt a little anime there, actually, where they're like, Sunmaker's Gambit!

You know.

Dalinar's Gambit now.

But let's lay it out there.

He's handing more power to Taravangian.

He is making Taravangian twice as powerful as he was before.

Arguably far more.

Because Honor and Odium have kind of held each other in check for a long time.

Thousands of years.

So now, not only does Taravangian wield the power of two shards, now the bonds are cut.

The cage is open.

He is free to wield both of those shards to do whatever he wants.

But apparently, Dalinar's thought this through and is hoping, and it's the gambit part of this, that the wager is that by handing Taravangian more power, it will cause the other shards in the Cosmere to no longer be able to ignore him.

That they will have to come together and fight against him.

Or so Dalinar hopes.

That's the lesson that Adolin has taught Gox this whole book.

How do you beat something that you can't?

How do you beat a force that is stronger than you?

You team up with the other lesser force to take down the stronger force, and he's hoping that will be the same for the other shards.

I guess the question to you guys is, is, is Dalinar insane or is he genius?

I, I had the opposite reaction that wit has actually, I had the reaction that, wow, that's really clever.

All the shards are going to come fight retribution.

And then the more I stood on it, I'm like, no, they're not.

No, they're not.

They're going to sit back and get picked off one by one.

I mean, we could have a whole episode on Retribution versus the Cosmere, and maybe we will.

But I don't know if this is actually going to work.

I don't think the shards are decisive enough for this.

They're going to want Harmony to step in.

There's a mention that they're kind of the only roughly equally powerful entities right now.

Right.

But those two powers are working against each other, whereas in Tarvangian's mind, retribution works great together.

There's a couple little chinks in that armor as he's getting used to the honor and its power.

which we can talk about a little more further, but Odium is quite confident he can take on Harmony.

Yeah.

Okay, so Dalinar does this.

He has his gambit, and then he...

Everyone is knocked unconscious, though everything explodes, all these things.

Capisce.

Goodbye, everybody.

He is going to the Beyond.

where you go when you die, especially as a now essentially uninvested person.

Taravangian is super mad at Dalinar and finds him.

And we get what might be my favorite wrap -up line in this book is Dalinar talking about trading.

you know, Terry Vangian calls them worthless and pointless, worthless, meaningless, all this stuff.

Like you're, you're worth nothing.

And down.

I was like, well, I just traded nothing for everything.

So that's what I call a bargain.

I call that a bargain.

Yeah.

Heck yeah.

And, and I thought that was awesome.

That was frankly, like, especially first read through going quick.

That is like, what stuck with me as.

The cherry on top of this story.

Yeah.

Man, oh, man.

That was it.

That was the mic drop.

I'm really grateful.

I think it was a really, really good point that Brandon did with having Dalinar slip through Taravangian's fingers and go into the beyond.

Like, final, we're not seeing Dalinar again.

Let's get the Blackthorn.

I don't count that.

That's not Dalinar, obviously, but Dalinar has done what he can.

He's made his move, and he's gone.

Bye -bye.

We'll see ya.

It felt like a very fitting finale to his character and what he stands for.

I had...

you know no complaints at all not even a little squabble over a catchphrase you know so that catchphrase worked as he left yeah yeah the let's talk about that moment where dalinar slips into the great beyond actually for a second because trevor it sounded earlier like you might have an answer to my question in that in that moment oh you don't okay i'm gonna do that then absolutely not I have just as many questions as you do.

In this moment, Tetravangian loses his grasp on Dalinar's soul.

He slips into the great beyond.

And then, yeah, there's this mention, is it like Honor or something, who's saying, ah, yeah, you can't have him.

He is claimed by another.

What?

Yeah.

What?

Is this as simple as like Evie?

Evie's already there.

It's like a, you know, nope, sorry, you can't torture him.

He's claimed by someone else.

He needs his peace.

Or is that supposed to be a reference to something different?

So I'll give you my meta answer.

My meta answer is it's as simple as.

no you can't have him because dalinar's story arc is done and this is this is his plot armor he's leaving and i say that because brandon sanderson has gone out of his way explicitly multiple times to say he will never confirm yes or no exactly what the beyond is or who is in the beyond or well what what he's not going to touch the beyond canonically ever he said that explicitly because it affects so many characters beliefs and if he's morals and ethics yes right so he's not he's not going to go there so because of that answer that i know i i don't think it's anything from like i don't think it's adonalsium 2 in the beyond pulling him in or anything like that i i think it's dalinar has surrendered his life therefore you can't have it like he has he has claimed his own life not not you can't basically but then wouldn't it have been something like that like his journey is done or something like to that effect that this feels more specific i i'm not i agree with you i'm not convinced by my own answer but he is claimed by another is such an interesting choice of words there brant and what who are we talking about oh yeah i agree it's so ominous i'm still under the assumption i'm going with what's in front of me that another is reference to the beyond as an entity that terra vangia was too late he's gone he's passed whatever that point of no return is that You can't come back from with the beyond.

Right.

But yeah, this phrase, like everything from reading Brandon Sanderson makes me look at that.

He's claimed by another and say, no, that's some shard or some thing or something else.

That's not him vanishing and going away.

That's him being put to some other.

purpose i i don't know i might like where i would stake my flag in the ground is that is the beyond the plot armor the his story's done thing yeah i agree if it comes out later that it's like oh he's claimed by the shard of whimsy and he's off doing these other things then like That I'm kind of just left confused.

Of like really nobody dies.

If Dalinar is not dead.

Then really nobody dies.

Mercy.

Helped by the vessel of Tien.

Has already claimed him.

And he's pulled him into the beyond.

Something ridiculous like that.

I will cope with that at a later time.

If it ever becomes relevant.

But I don't think.

I think we are done.

I think that.

Honestly, that could be in there just for people like us to sit and theorize and cast lots over where the heck is Dalinar for a year, you know, like till the end of, you know, Stormlight 10, waiting for him to come back or something.

But yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

It felt like as definitive of an ending as we could get.

it felt like brandon was trying to make this very clear dalinar is dead and gone but and then plutonium also wins and then by grabbing the blackthorn okay so i've been told i have not seen the actual footage but i have been told that brandon sanderson since releasing this book regrets Putting this in here.

Really?

That the Blackthorn is personified by retribution to be his general in the back five or wherever we're going.

I have been told that Brandon Sanderson has gone on record saying he wishes he hadn't put it in there and that it was a surprise when it happens so that we didn't know at the end of the book.

But when the Blackthorn shows up in book six, we're like, what?

What do you guys think of that?

I got to think about this.

But my initial reaction is I disagree with Brandon.

I don't know if that's allowed.

It's his book and his stuff.

I don't know if I'm allowed to disagree.

My initial thought is that this is better.

And the reason why.

Brandon, if you're out there, let me console you.

It's fine you put this in here, and here's why.

If it's a surprise later, if it's surprise, Blackthorn's back, what would happen in that moment is what happened to us when we got hit with Thornus in this book, where we immediately went back and retconned our own memories of everything that happened right here.

We would have immediately gone, what do you mean he's back?

So he didn't die, and we would have then reflected back on the end of this book weirdly.

I agree.

By telling us this now and not making that a surprise, I think that's going to be better because we can hold on to our closure with Dalinar.

We can hold on to this.

We can tell ourselves that Dalinar is truly gone.

And that what we see in the future is going to be a reanimation of the memory that is the Blackthorn.

And I think it will keep our minds focused on the right things we need to be wrestling with then and not trying to come back and reprocess all the events here of this book.

That would be my case to make, I think.

Okay.

Ellie, I agree with half of what you're saying.

The half I'm agreeing with is I think it's good for us to know, okay, no, Dalinar is gone, and this is essentially unmade, created from the memory, the investiture, the intellectual property of the Blackthorn, right?

As Tetributions General.

I think the finality of Dalinar is important and good, and I think it's a perfect ending for Dalinar.

I think it's good.

I think, for me, reading that, Dalinar going into the beyond, slipping through Taravangian's fingers, and then immediately after being like, ooh, but I've got the Blackthorn here.

I didn't like that as an ending in the book.

I would have much rather had this exact thing where we distinctly know it's not Dalinar, because I think that's important.

But I would have rather had that once we're entering this new phase.

Like, you probably get a weird bait -and -switch moment where Elokar steps out as the champion.

Blackthorn steps out as the champion, and you're like, no, he's supposed to be dead.

But then right after the chapter, you know, you start the next chapter, and it...

I follow that.

I didn't love it as an element.

I would have much rather had a more conclusive look or glance at one of our other characters more so than picking right back up with Dalinar is still odium's champion even though he's dead essentially like that i don't know that i once again i was expecting book five to be more conclusive than this is like oh just book five of ten not book five of five i think is how i've had the impression um so anyways that that's kind of my my thoughts on that i land between you And it's because of something, Paul, you just said.

You labeled the Blackthorn as an unmade.

I don't know if you purposely did that or just used that term, but that is a really interesting use of the term.

And it made me think.

The Blackthorn is going to be our 10th unmade.

We have nine that equate to nine.

knights radiant orders and we're always missing bondsmith oh we just got a bondsmith unmade we just got bondsmith fused wow okay that's a big deal i think it's gonna be really cool five years ten years from now right so i i actually am changing my mind on it as You were talking, Paul, that because it's now revealed that Terra Vangian has the Blackthorn.

And I think you are correct that you could call this an unmade.

That it's hangs out in the spiritual realm, cognitive realm, whatever has been warped to.

Retributions will at this point.

Yeah, I think we just got our 10th unmade.

Interesting.

Lastly then, should we talk about Taravangian or do y 'all have more on Dalinar?

Let me close with one last thought on Dalinar unless Trevor has anything else.

I wanted to spend just a quick second talking about what Dalinar says when he breaks his oath.

In that moment.

where he breaks his oath from honor.

Trevor, you talked us through this really well.

Sends honor off, basically saying you need to grow.

You need to change.

You need to learn what it means to really be honor because the honor you are now is not actually what you should be.

Remember me, I think is, yeah, like that parting words there.

And then he goes on to also say at some point, Maybe when Taravangian is kind of challenging him, he's like, how could you?

How could you break your oath?

And he responds back with, an oath is only as good as the ideals it is sworn to.

And I thought that was really good.

It got me thinking here in this moment.

As I'm trying to process, did Dallin do the right thing?

And it's easy maybe to jump towards, well, he broke an oath.

He must have done the wrong thing.

Breaking promises is not good.

But I think he's right.

I think he's right morally in this scene that breaking his oath, walking away, stepping out of the bounds that Taravangian has put on him.

Taravangian has pinned him in with this whole contest thing.

Either you lose or I win.

He's got him in a tough spot.

Down or to go, nope, sorry, I'm breaking the promise because the oath I've sworn to is not something worth upholding.

Makes you think a little bit.

Makes you do a little bit of mental gymnastics to kind of wrestle with, okay, what was the morally right way to go about this?

But I think he brings up a great point here of what you swear an oath to matters a lot.

And if you swear an oath to something, And then at a later date, learn, oh, I should not actually serve that.

You should break your oath.

You should.

And I had to think through all this, reading through these chapters, but I thought it was pretty good.

Another good moment that the book made me think about myself.

So I liked that quote, an oath is only as good as the ideals it is sworn to.

Good one.

I'm going to have to think about that one more too.

I think it's very interesting.

that dalinar includes remember me right after he the talking to honor i think dalinar was just more honorable than the shard honor yeah maybe like dalinar is trying to show the shard the most honorable thing to do in this moment is to break my oath and that's part of honor yeah and honor will eventually learn that But not yet.

And so I'm going to do this.

Pass it on to my next generation here.

Because they're great.

But honor isn't there yet.

And I will show it.

Which I think is really cool.

Big moment.

Very cool.

I think it's a satisfying conclusion to the Dalinar storyline.

It is a bit unexpected.

But I think in good ways.

Brandon has brought this to a closure that I would never have guessed, but it feels right.

Yeah, I can agree with that.

As I mentioned, I've said it like 10 times now, I'm so sorry.

Kaladin and Dalinar's story, books one through five, as we wrap this book up, other people may feel a little bit different about Kaladin's status in this, but I feel like those two stories, As we are wrapping up book five.

Are tied up with a bow.

And ready to go under the Christmas tree.

You know they're all ready.

And I.

So I.

Smitten.

I think it's fun.

I think it's great.

I'm happy with that.

I have more thoughts.

Regarding that that will probably break down.

And some of the things you were bringing up Elliot.

About some of the.

I guess, ethics of honor and all this stuff.

We might go more in depth in our wrap -up or other things, episodes.

We'll be doing a lot of stuff about this book.

There's lots to talk about.

With that, though, I feel like that's a good segue into Terravangian if we want to talk about Terravangian here.

So I will go first.

And I feel like I...

Oh.

I have had the most mixed thoughts as we wrap this book up about Taravangian.

Reading this, I think I wrote in our live reactions channel in Discord that this reveal, I want to talk about the reveal of the hidden Karbroth.

I have thoughts as well.

Yeah, this is what I've been wrestling with a lot.

When this was revealed to us, I instantly felt like this undercut his character.

I felt like this is, okay, no, he is not willing to pay this price.

So rewind to the middle of this book.

We get the moment, not the middle, like day seven or something.

We get Serving June destroying Carbronth, and we are like, okay, he is pure, 100 % villain, like, fully all in on this, etc.

And here we get where, no, he actually didn't do that.

He actually just is hiding them in the spiritual realm.

Because even he is not willing to pay that price.

What does that mean, Paul?

It means he's still the divided one.

I feel like that was the whole point.

It is.

It is.

You're right.

I...

Call me crazy.

But what I...

wanted to see so this is this is so obviously what i was expecting and what i wanted to happen is obviously going to be extremely different from what actually happens we make theories and predictions all the time like two percent of them land you know um i don't know i okay first of all i guess my understanding is that's part of how he was able to accept power of honor i don't know if that's right or not but him not going back and so so did he or did he not destroy carbronth i don't know where that is like all right is gone but the people aren't correct so right where we are back in epigraph seven cultivation sends in her little spies and says hey i'm gonna kill your family if you don't back down And Teravania's like, okay, I'm going to send this tidal wave and wipe out all of Karbronth, including your spies, because I don't care.

Turns out he does care and sucked them all out into the spiritual realm right before the wave hit without cultivation seeing.

I have a little bit of issue with that, but I'm not going to dwell on that.

So, like...

Our heroes were running around in the spiritual realm for nine -tenths of this book, eight -tenths of this book.

He grabbed their physical bodies, threw them in the spiritual realm, recreated all of Karbronth for them.

They don't know they're in spiritual realm Karbronth, and then he goes and hangs out with them whenever he wants.

So he didn't technically kill them.

That that's the rules that I understand.

Do you, are you on the same page with that?

Yes, I am.

Okay.

So with that understood, he has the three episodes ago.

I think I talked about this two episodes, two episodes ago.

He has technically not broken his oath to protect Carbron.

As long as you define Carbron as the people.

If we're defining Karbronth as the people inside it, which I'm not sure that contract actually does, we have protected Karbronth.

Now, I'm getting really particular here because it's really important because current day Shard of Honor is just like this.

This is exactly what current day Shard of Honor is looking for.

Did you follow...

The exact letter of the law of your oath.

And I think the answer is yes.

Here.

So retribution gets to keep honor.

I think is the takeaway here.

That retribution is sneaky enough to follow the letter of the law to the point where honor is like, hey, I like that.

You kept your oath.

I think was the takeaway here.

So I was wowed by it.

I'll say that.

Okay.

Yeah, so, yeah, I really appreciate the recap, the filling in there, because, yeah, it's quite dicey.

In my head, he hasn't, because, like, he did destroy Carboranth, the entity, and they're now in make -believe Carboranth in the spiritual realm.

But, yeah, the people are there, right?

Quick question on that again, though.

Is it just his family that's there and the other people are...

Don't they mention something about this quote -unquote rumor of sickness that started with the guards?

Or is that...

I thought that the other people...

That was in the book.

I don't remember if that's with Karbroth or not.

I don't remember where that is either.

I feel like I need to look back.

But in my head...

Oh, no, it's with Aesir.

There's something with Aesir going on.

I'll need to reread that, I'm sorry.

Okay, then never mind that, never mind that.

But in my head, that's where it was, was he saved his family and those specific people he really cares about, and everyone else there is part of the illusion.

I think that's probably wrong.

I probably got that mixed up somewhere in all the many things that are happening.

I think, I'm pretty sure all of Karbronth was pulled out.

I assume everybody in Carbronth and their next of kin as opposed as goes the contract.

I am very curious if illusion Carbronth includes the night of sorrows or not, because presumably when cultivation leaves, he could just put Carbronth back without anyone knowing.

And he's held up his part of the deal, right?

Like he pulls it out.

smashes it, rebuilds it, puts Karbronth back.

Everybody's fine.

I'm not sure that's what he's actually doing, though, because I think he has a full everything is fine illusion sunny days in Karbronth, and he's going to keep them in the spiritual realm, which is a lot.

And I think this is going to be big for that divided one part that you were talking about, Trevor, of This is not just a problem from a contract perspective or maybe actually, yeah, he held the contract.

It's a problem from a who am I perspective.

Yeah.

Taravangian was all in, so all in, completely a thousand percent on the I will sacrifice every last person for the greater good.

Except that he won't.

It is what you were saying, Paul.

It is a complete undermining of his character.

Completely.

He's actually on the Jasnah side of the debate.

Exactly.

He's on the, I have to save my family.

Bingo.

Ooh, that's fascinating.

He is no different than Jasnah, who he reportedly, 300 pages ago, completely tore apart.

He's in the same place.

I'm...

quite conflicted on this.

Okay, so, rewinding.

Before this conversation, I was coming in to say, I think this is undermined his character, and it's too much akin to this aspect that we've seen of like, oh, the good guy dies, but just kidding, they don't actually die, they're totally fine, and they're right back.

I thought this was...

Taravangian wiped everyone out, but no, just kidding.

I didn't actually, I didn't want to lose them, you know, and this aspect.

And kind of what I was expecting before this reveal was, okay, Taravangian is now retribution.

Dalinar is gone.

This contest has subsided.

I thought we were going to get this moment of Taravangian sitting in the weight of what he has done.

That's what I was expecting.

And at one point before this reveal, I was kind of looking forward to that.

Not in a bad way, but a powerful...

I imagined Brandon Sanderson writing that really, really well.

Terror of Engine has been quite an interesting character throughout these last several books.

So that's what I was expecting.

And so then when this happened, I'm like, I don't...

I don't even know what to think about the character, because the character is so fully evil still, like fully wrong ethics, if you will, beliefs, like whatever, practices, all this stuff, totally off -base on so many things, but still has the price he's not willing to pay.

We are certainly getting this divided one.

That was out of left field for me, for sure.

I'm sure that's what it's supposed to be, so I'm probably going to come around more.

But my initial reaction to that was not positive, honestly.

I thought it was, we're never going to get a definitive villain.

We're never going to get a definitive death.

We're never going to get definitive stuff.

I'm like, just make him evil or make him not evil.

Like, you know, so, yeah.

I think that is the biggest takeaway here, is the door is left cracked open ever so slightly that Teravangian is not completely evil.

Well, I wouldn't say that.

I would say that Teravangian is not completely odium.

And the vessel is still there.

Because...

The whole point of that epigraph was death to the vessel, I am Odium.

But turns out that's not actually true.

He still has his good days and his bad days, and he still cares about Karbroth.

Which I think is really, really interesting.

To leave us with, it's still Taravangian.

after everything after odium after retribution after cultivation leaving it's still taravangia yep but but you are right paul it does take away from some of the definitiveness of the end of this book it does give you a little bit of whiplash i think in that moment of and actually not kind of moment there so it is a little bit jerky But I'm pretty fascinated by the questions it raises.

Yeah, and I agree.

I think after the conversations we've had, I am more curious about what this can mean.

I'm really, this specifically, more than anything else at the end of this book, this is what I'm most eager to know.

What is Brandon's plan with this?

What is his overarching plan?

Because we have not, again, I don't anticipate we'll be getting a Moash Redemption.

That's the only other character who has gone quite so low.

I'm like, if we get to book 10, let's say Terra Vangina is Retribution in book 10.

That's crazy spitballing here.

Way in the future, the conclusion of Teravangian's character, if it is he has held on to what he knows is good and has held on to some semblance of that and we have some kind of moment, whether he loses the shards or not, I don't know.

Then I see a purpose for this.

In my head, going into the back half and the future of the Cosmere, it is still retribution.

versus the cosmere and if we get i i will be a bit annoyed i think if we get this he is still our foremost villain and always will be the foremost villain but he just has a soft spot i don't know it feels it feels odd to do a take back on this if there's not a redemption coming um so if there is a redemption coming i felt like Once we're at that point and we're reading that, this as a stepping stone in the story, impactful.

It does feel like the rug is being pulled out in the 11th hour in this book.

I am going to say this and only this.

And I'm also going to revel in the moment where I get to do this for the very first time.

Paul, hold on to those thoughts.

Oh, no.

And that is all I will say.

Are you going to give any context to that for people who aren't familiar with our format going forward?

I will explain in a few episodes what I am referring to.

I will not reveal now what I'm referring to.

I will explain to you here in a couple of episodes.

But for now, hold on to those questions, Paul.

Okay, I will.

I have a feeling I'm going to be holding on to those questions for a long time, by the way.

I could be wrong.

We don't have to talk about it.

But that's my feeling, is I'm going to be holding on to these questions for longer than I would like.

Maybe.

All right.

Anything else, gentlemen, before we talk about everybody else tomorrow?

That is all I got.

Oh my goodness.

Some huge moments.

It's hard to even process.

It is hard to even process the magnitude of what we are reading about.

Kaladin, Zeth, Dalinar, Shards, Retribution.

This is wild.

And to try and break it down in, oh goodness, we're up to like what, an hour and a half now, is crazy.

I feel like we need six hours too.

talk about this so flood us with your comments hop in our discord would love to talk more about all the other things that we didn't get to but i think that's going to do it for uh for all my thoughts for now absolutely i elliot said it well um only other quick thing i want to add is we're wrapping up with taravangian is one of the things i don't even have a comment but just to point out what taravangian is most upset about at the end of the book is that he does not have time to prepare.

He feels like all eyes are on him, and he's been kicked into fighting the Cosmere, and he's not prepared.

I think that's really important.

So I am holding on to that as we wait for Stormlight 6.

But, yeah.

Crazy book.

Still so much to talk about.

What we talked about...

four characters, five and six if you count Nightblood and Syl.

We still have a lot of characters to talk about tomorrow.

Come right back and leave all the comments.

It's a breath of fresh air to not have to be afraid of spoilers.

That's the main thing.

I feel like you can live a free life.

Now, whenever I talk to friends, I don't have to be like, wait, wait, don't say anything.

Do not say anything.

There we go.

Elliot, for the first time, is over there giggling to himself about spoilers.

Yeah, wowsers.

I am.

It's fun already.

All right.

We will reconvene tomorrow.

Thanks for joining me, Paul and Elliot.

See ya.

Toodles.