Alright, enough staring at the pictures.

How about the words?

No, I was just here to talk about the pictures.

I'll let Trevor talk about them.

I need more pictures in my book, please.

Especially my audio book.

I've been wondering why I didn't have a complete picture of some of the things going on.

It's because I've only looked at the pictures so far.

I haven't really gotten to the words yet.

It's a little intimidating.

Yeah, I think there might be a snake in the book.

Yeah.

There's a snake in my book.

Welcome back to Following Noodon, a Stormlight podcast.

Today is episode 279.

We are continuing in Isles of the Ember Dark, chapters 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16.

Lots of ground to cover today.

Some familiar chapters because we are still diving through some of the flashback chapters that we've seen before in the Sixth of the Dusk novella.

Couple key changes this time, though, from that previous novella that I'll talk you guys through, as well as some cool art that I want to show you guys.

But before we dive into all of that, how are you guys doing?

Trevor, Paul?

Paul, you can go first this time.

All right.

I'm doing really well.

Thank you so much for asking, Elliot.

I really appreciate it.

Doing really well.

Another week in patchy paradise.

And, yeah.

By paradise, I mean endless death trap where everything wants to kill you.

Other than that, paradise.

I think it was when we read the novella that I compared this place to Australia.

It's like every animal you meet is venomous and can murder you in one bite.

Every animal is at the top of the global venom chart.

That reminds me.

I'm going to give you a fun fact y 'all did not ask for at all.

So death ants are a thing that we talked about a lot in this book.

Are y 'all familiar with the real world connection to this?

No.

So there's a scale.

There's a way that it's officially measured, I believe.

But there's essentially a scale for insect stings and bites.

And, you know, you have like your fire ant, bubble bee, red wasp, whatever.

All the way to, you know, once you go across the world, you've got some really, really painful stings.

At the very top of that, the number one most painful sting you can receive on planet Earth is by an ant, by the bullet ant.

And I don't remember all the specifics of it, but essentially you spend the day in excruciating pain.

like you will probably hallucinate like like lots of crazy things will happen and i believe that there's a tribe that like is local to the area that that had a has a tradition which is quite terrifying i'm i'm sorry to y 'all and to our viewers but i believe it's the process of becoming a man within this tribe is to put your hands in gloves that are full of these ants and you get bitten all over, and that is your transition into manhood at age 12 or something ridiculous.

Anyways, there's your fun fact.

So if you ever stumble across bullet ants, it's not the time to play around.

Yeah, no thanks.

I'll pass.

Hard pass.

I would say today I learned that Paul's a huge bug nerd, but I actually already knew that.

If y 'all are familiar with Coyote Peterson, this is where I learned it.

He went through and tested every single bite and sting in ascending order, ending with the bullet ant.

Again, no thanks.

People crazy enough to do that.

No thanks.

Trevor, how are you this week?

Doing well.

I have not been bitten by a death ant or a bullet ant, so I'm doing well.

I'm looking forward to...

Talking about mashing up worms, though.

We are going to mash worms.

We are going to do a few other things as well.

You want to give us your summary rundown?

Talk us through it.

Sure.

So flashback first.

Fothy and Dusk have decided not to be hostile to each other.

And right as we're beginning to get to know each other in our flashbacks.

Then the AVR go, hey, wire, there's corpses everywhere.

And then Vathi's like, hey, I know you've had a long day.

It'll be all right.

And then Dusk says, hey, Sok, can you go bond her real quick?

And he's like, yeah, sure.

So then she goes and bonds her.

And then Vathi freaks out.

And so Vathi sees a bunch of her own corpse.

And then Dusk gets in her face like, what is going on?

What are you guys doing?

Vathi says, we just probably turned on the machine from the other side of the island.

Don't worry about it.

It's fine.

And then they've decided to go stop them to turn off the machine.

And halfway through, Vathi steps in a trap.

and Dusk saves her and gets stabbed through the arm, and then Nightmaw shows up, and Vathi blows its head off.

And then we run to the perpendicularity.

Modern day, not nearly as exciting.

We are also going to go to the perpendicularity, except it's like small trading post booming town in the 1800s patchy, and there's docks and steamboats and couple small villages on the island and Dusk has decided to sail into Shadesmar for lack of a better term although I think we get a better term shortly here coming and then yeah I mean Vathi mentioned something about getting him a crew and then that doesn't happen yet I don't there was no crew when he jumped through the portal And it's dropped on us that the Skadrians let slip about the portal.

So now the first of the sun, the Dromanadians, that's what I'm going to call them, are now keyed into the fact that their perpendicularity actually means something.

And that's super important because everybody here who shows up from other planets, that's the first thing they ask about.

And so they go to their perpendicularity and the Skadrians let slip that.

Or the Skadrians say, hey, does anybody disappear around these portals?

And First of the Sun's like, nope.

And then when Dusk goes to the perpendicularity next, he's like, hmm, I wonder what would happen if I disappeared.

And then he goes into Shadesmar.

So that tells me that in order to use a perpendicularity, or at least this perpendicularity, you have to have capital I intent.

To do so.

And I don't know if that's about it.

For modern day.

We're about to go sailing.

The not.

Bead ocean.

It's actually just like a water ocean.

But it's not water.

It's just nothing.

So yeah.

It is seemingly nothing.

Alright.

Good summary.

Thank you Trevor.

I want to show you guys some art.

Because yet again.

In these secret projects, we've got some gorgeous art that pops up every few pages, and we've passed a few of them now.

But before I do that, quick little plug for our book giveaway that we're doing right now.

We are giving away a physical copy of House of the Ember Dark, the Kickstarter Dragonsteel edition that has all this awesome art in it.

So if you want to know how to enter in that giveaway, go back and watch.

our first episode of Isles of Emberdark, which would have been, what, 277, I think?

Or hop in our Discord, and there'll be details in there.

We are going to keep that submission open until December 1st, I've decided.

So we're closing that by December 1st.

Make sure you get your entry in to try and win a copy of Isles of Emberdark.

Okay.

Art.

We've made enough of the way through this book that I wanted to make sure you guys got to see some of this art because I know both of you guys are doing the audio book.

You might have cracked open your physical copy to peek at a few of the pages we passed.

Hopefully none of the pages we haven't gotten to yet.

But here is some of the images we've gotten so far.

I just want to throw this up on the screen for you guys and get your thoughts, reactions, a little bit of a different art style from some of the other secret projects we've gotten.

Maybe not my ultimate favorite, but probably up there.

I like these quite a bit, including these pencil sketches, which you can totally see somebody, I don't know, Dusk is maybe kind of artistic, pulling out a sketch pad and just sketching some of these.

The middle one here is I think the earliest one we see.

It's just Dusk arriving on the island and seeing his own corpse everywhere.

The one on the right is obviously Dusk and Vathi arriving at his treehouse, fort place.

And then the one all the way on the left over here is the modern day island of Pachi that's been industrialized with these aviaries and all the trees cut down and the steamships in the harbor.

So there you go.

Thinking of Tarzan looking at these.

They're going to go like find some gorillas and take pictures of them.

I was going to say, I really like this art style.

I don't know this.

I think some of the reason I've really enjoyed this book so far is Six of the Dusk and a lot of the imagery going on here reminds me of some classics that I kind of grew up reading, such as like what Swiss Family Robinson or Robinson Crusoe or things like that.

A lot of Island.

shenanigans, survival.

And I kind of like the style.

The sketches feel very detailed, but fairly simple in scope.

And I don't know, there's something kind of fun and comforting and kind of takes me back a little bit with this art.

So I love it.

It is like a...

huge huge plus from me i i think it's super cool i'm enjoying them as well there's actually a few others i was going to flash up for you too there's one this is not a full page piece this is like half a page quarter of a page depiction of the medallion that's come up a bunch of times cacoban's medallion if you're wondering what cacoban looked like there you go at least there's his image on on a medallion and then We spent quite a bit of time in our last book, Wind and Truth, analyzing chapter headers.

And I wanted to show you guys the chapter headers from this book.

They look like this.

They're similar to excerpts from, yeah, there's a fern frond there for you.

Almost like it's images from a field guide or something.

There's fern frond.

There's a picture of sock.

And then relevant to this chapter, here's an image of a nightmaw.

for you.

That is a dinosaur.

I have read enough dinosaur books to my son.

That is a dinosaur.

Sure does look like one.

And that's just three of like 20 different images that we've seen.

I guess we haven't read 20 chapters yet so far, so like 12 -ish.

And I'll tell you guys, I spent quite a bit of time staring at these field guide excerpt images.

Trying to see if there's anything relevant to the story or that we could discern from them.

I will not reveal yet whether I learned something from these.

Oh, come on.

Way too much time staring at these and trying to get some secret meaning out of them.

But every top of the chapter has one of these.

Cool.

All right.

That was it for art.

So with that, we can jump into the chapters.

Who wants to kick us off with thoughts or questions from chapters?

Can I actually, I'm sorry, can I have you go back and look at the medallion again?

I don't know if you've put it all away.

I put it all away, but it will take me about two seconds to get it back.

Okay.

Once you put this up here, there was something that I noticed that I've been mulling over for the 30 seconds that it's been since you first put this up.

I couldn't help but notice this ring on the edge.

Okay, so you see Kakoban there.

The southwest side of the coin is where his body is, right?

But the rest of the outside of the coin, it looks like a viper or a snake scales or something.

It could be something else, but it looks like it to me.

It specifically reminds me of, there's a...

Well, I'm getting all nerdy on nature stuff this episode.

But there's a spiny bush viper or a type of snake or something that's really famous because its scales don't quite lay flat.

They kind of point up at the end and you get this spiny, spiky texture.

To me, it looks like it does that a little bit.

That may not be the case.

But anyways, this instantly has me wondering if there's some big serpent.

involved either in Kakoban's story or on this planet that we haven't seen yet.

Obviously, we've talked about dragons, but I would put this in a different loop than dragons.

I don't know.

This instantly got me thinking that there's some rough -scaled snake that is involved in the story somehow.

I mean, that's one of the other main characters in the Kakoban story is the Dukara.

The Dukara is the snake that he ties knots in around the world, and it's a never -ending tale or something like that.

Okay, that's right.

I don't know how I missed that, but that must be what this is.

This must be the Dukara.

I don't know how I missed that.

I heard Dukara, and I guess I didn't put together that.

Or it's a Wheel of Time reference.

I don't know anything about Wheel of Time, but it could be.

It's like eating itself or something, right?

Yeah, eating its own tail.

Yeah, you might be right.

That's just what's covered up right there is the head eating the tail.

Yeah.

I am getting, I think the serpent eating its own tail is referred to as the Ouroboros.

Ouroboros?

Ouroboros.

There you go.

Yeah, you're right.

But yeah, you're very observant, Paul.

Very observant on our medallion.

And there's fronds on the medallion for Mother Frond.

Also, not to keep going with the accusations of, is this Moana?

But, you know, the spirit guy in Moana has this big hook, and it looks quite like the hook that's on his necklace.

Maui, is that the name?

You haven't watched Moana recently, have you?

It's been a minute.

But there's the big hook, you know.

Anyways.

Feels quite reminiscent.

Yes.

Indeed.

It can be all done with the picture now, but that's something that I thought of when you first put that up there.

All right.

Enough staring at the pictures.

How about the words?

Anybody got any thoughts to dive us into the chapters?

No, I was just here to talk about the pictures.

I'll let Trevor talk about it.

I need more pictures in my book, please.

Especially my audio book.

I've been wondering why I didn't have a complete picture of some of the things going on.

It's because I've only looked at the pictures so far.

I haven't really gotten to the words yet.

It's a little intimidating.

Yeah, I think there might be a snake in the book.

Yeah.

There's a snake in my book.

Anyways, about the words, I don't want to skip too far ahead.

Let me start.

I want to know the differences in the novella and the actual book.

Let's start with this segment again, Elliot.

Ah, yes, we can certainly do that.

So there is one actually quite fascinating difference to me.

There's several minor differences.

A few things have different names.

I think I forgot to mention last time that in the novella, the death ants were yellow.

And in this book, they're now black.

Stuff like that.

That's very important.

It must be.

Someone will have a crazy theory about why that's important.

There's a bunch of medallion stuff that comes up later.

We'll get to this.

But when they find the dead trapper and they take the medallion off of him, all that's been added.

Well, not the dead trapper that was there, but the medallion.

Dusk symbolically gives the medallion to Vathi.

All of that was added, just again, revolving around Cacoban and his medallion.

One other change that I noticed, and it's right up front here.

It's in the part of the novella that corresponds to chapter 10, right off the bat.

In this chapter, Vathi reveals that she has a device that she has gotten from the ones above, and it shows her a map.

of the Island with little blips for where every single AVR is.

Do you guys catch, catch this, catch this part and how she got that device is different in what, what do you guys remember from the new version of how she got that device?

Do you remember what she says?

Yeah.

Uh, I'm going to make this up and I think I'm right.

It was like, conveniently accidentally left in the spaceship or something or in a crashed ship or something like that yes the the new version of the story the one i guess we're treating as canon now as it was accidentally left behind right and they kind of know that it was not accidental that they they were we kind of get their hands on it Oh, cool.

Yeah.

She was meeting with one of the aliens from above.

He choked on his food and died.

And so Vati got to keep all his stuff.

And that was one of the things.

Yeah, I didn't remember that at all.

No, I didn't either.

So and so that would also imply that they knew that they were humans on that version, like they had met them face to face.

And because on our current day one, they don't know they're humans until present day.

True.

True.

I think that would have maybe caused a little bit of a plot hole or problem or whatever.

But I think the added emphasis, which I think is fairly clear in the new story, of the Skadrans are intentionally feeding them bits of technology.

They are not really supposed to be giving them stuff.

There's laws they're trying to abide by, but they're cutting the corners.

They just can't help themselves.

Yeah, they're like, come on, guys.

Have this, and maybe that'll help you.

Now, okay, this one feeds into a question I had for Chapter 11, actually, which I go ahead and skip to right now.

Dusk makes the accusation that the AVR plague, if not intentional by the Skadrians, the withholding of the...

Antidote was intentional by the Skadrians.

And I wanted to stop on that for a second.

That's a huge accusation.

Like, he lost Cokerly to that plague.

And if he really is stewing on they could have saved Cokerly the entire time and didn't, like, Dusk is not going to make friends with the Skadrians.

I said last episode that I had faith for First the Sun and Skadrial.

I don't have faith for Dusk and Scadrial.

Now, that feeds into the...

Dusk has this whole theory of the ones above want to impress on us their power over us, but not overtly.

They're reminding us how much we're depending on them.

They're giving us just enough technology so that we need them.

And then they're taking away like, oh, and if you don't...

If you don't cooperate, then we'll just take it away and you won't have any of this anymore.

There's electric battery packs that if they open them up, they stop working.

And they're not allowed to actually know what's going on.

They're allowed to have the gifts.

They're allowed to have the fish.

They're not allowed to be taught how to fish.

And Dusk is very upset about this.

And it makes me wonder how much of this is actually leaked.

to first of the sun and how much of it is not so we're led to believe that all of this is conveniently not accidentally leaked to first of the sun they're trying to push them so that they can make a deal be a part of their treaty or whatever as a sentient race of the stars or whatever so they can trade to them but there's on the other hand there is The point they make about the perpendicularity.

The Skadrians let slip that you have to have the intention of disappearing into the perpendicularity and then you can do it.

Okay, so now I'm thinking, okay, was that intentional?

Did they want them to start using their perpendicularity?

Or was that a genuine mistake from the Skadrians?

Because I'm wondering.

why we can't approach first the sun the old -fashioned way because there's a perpendicularity on it right like why can't we just go to the perpendicularity if that's what they're here for or it's one of the reasons why we're here for why can't we just hop over to shadesmar and use perpendicularity like we would in any other planet now you're asking the right questions and so now i'm wondering they don't know where it is So what if we get the first of the sun people to start using it?

And then there's a bunch of traffic on shades more all of a sudden, and then we can go find it.

That's, that's where my brain's at because, you know, Chris back in the day, she's writing up her essays on each of the systems or whatever.

And she talks about each of the perpendicularities.

That's like how you get to the planet.

And.

Why aren't we doing that now?

Why can't we go approach first the sun from Patchy and approach this from the other direction as opposed to...

Why are we starting with space travel as opposed to starting with the perpendicularity like we would anywhere else?

Is this what autonomy wanted, do you think, Trevor?

Well, yeah.

I have a lot of thoughts on autonomy.

Don't get me started.

Okay.

I won't.

I wanted to chime in that I also thought the perpendicularity comment and the reveal here felt a bit odd.

This makes me think, you know, we're going to get some also in these chapters Dusk hints at about how he's been to Shadesmar, been through there at some point, right?

Yes.

Which, like I said, it's been a very long time since we've read Six of the Dusk, and I do not remember it well.

Was that in Six of the Dusk, or is that in Ember Dark?

It's the next flashback chapter we're about to read.

At the end of this episode, we get chased from the Nightmaws into the perpendicularity, like on the physical realm side.

We get chased into the pool.

And that's how we lose...

The Night Maw is...

Spoilers for next week.

I don't think...

I'm not 100 % sure on this.

I don't think past Dusk, Dusk and the flashbacks, has gone to Shadesmar or knows how to do that.

Let me rephrase.

He runs in the perpendicularity away from the Night Maw, doesn't go to Shadesmar, but he's standing in the perpendicular...

He's standing in the eye of patchy or whatever he calls it, but he doesn't use it as a perpendicularity.

He doesn't know that until this chapter 10 or whatever, or 11 and the scadrines let slip.

Oh, you have to have the intent to flip dimensions.

And so then two years ago is what it says in the book.

Two years ago is the first time he goes to Shadesmar.

So between five years ago, which is the flashbacks and modern days, two years ago is when he first goes.

Okay.

Okay.

That's, I think that's about what I was thinking.

So, so that does not happen in the original six of the dusk.

He runs to the perpendicularity, but does not use it.

Okay.

I'm glad because if so, I'm like, wow, I really forgot it.

I feel like I would have remembered him going to shades more.

at that point um do y 'all trevor do you think this is something we're gonna see i assume we're gonna see something about see or at least hear him talk about what he saw and what he learned in shadesmar i'm assuming like like what what so he this mention of like oh yes i've been there two years ago is like okay in my head naturally As this book goes along, he's going to talk about it more, flesh that out.

It's not just going to be a mention of, yeah, I've been there.

And that's where it ends.

I'm assuming, I don't know if we will see on page like a flash.

I don't think so, because all the flashbacks are the original story.

I don't know if we're going past the original story.

That's actually something I just thought about.

I don't know how it's going to look, but I'm assuming we're going to hear more about Dusk saying, hey, I've been to Shadesmar.

Like more about his original time.

Does he specify why he went two years ago?

I don't think so.

I think he's just freaked out that he did successfully and then jumps back.

But ever since then, he's had the idea of Kakaban sailing the Endless Night.

that's what it means is kakuman coming here from i believe they call it ember dark okay and basically i think what what you need to pick up on at this point is they they don't know anything about the ember dark the only thing they do know is that they have found worms and that if you smear the worms on your boat, your boat will float in the not water of the Ember Dark.

And that's about all they know at this point.

Are you all aware of the real world worms that do this?

You better be joking.

I am joking.

I am not aware of any worms you can rub on your boat.

Levitation worms.

Yes.

That is not the case.

There are glow worms.

That is a thing.

Those are a thing of course.

But unfortunately.

They have no levitational powers.

As far as you know.

They weren't born on Patchy.

So they don't have their.

Levitation power awakened in them.

I was going to say.

We don't have any worms.

That you can.

rub on a boat and make it levitate but a more important question has anyone on earth ever tried that right right that that's that's a unique thing that i don't think many people if anybody have has tried so that could be the like a huge discovery okay no speaking of well genuine genuine question speaking of things that people just have never tried I was not bought into the whole nobody's actually tried bringing a raven to the aisles as a chick and it gets a power.

Like, that was the explanation last episode of in our flashback chapters.

Vathi's freaking out about a new AVR and Dusk says nothing because he's Dusk.

And then Vathi comes to the conclusion of no, you brought Sock here as a chick.

And then she.

And that enabled her powers.

And nobody's ever really done that before.

And I'm like, what?

What do you mean?

That's what?

I didn't buy it.

I.

I'll point out.

You said it.

Dusk doesn't actually say anything.

You're right.

Keep a hold of your question.

Keep a hold of your question.

Okay.

I will.

What else we got going on in these chapters?

I think we've covered kind of 10, 11, 12.

Trevor, you're getting into some 12 stuff.

They sent...

So Vathi, current day, First of the Sun.

They send an expedition into Emberdark.

But Vathi and the...

government i'm just going to call it that even though they're a company vati and her company send an expedition they lose radio contact and they can't find their way back and assumingly they die and so they haven't tried since back to your question paul then dusk in modern days like all right but we're gonna go again because now you got me this time and i'm I'm Dusk.

And I'm the main character.

So.

I got faith in Dusk.

Don't get me wrong.

But.

The only expeditions we've sent.

Into Ember Dark.

Are Gonzo.

So.

Does Dusk really have what it takes?

I think so.

I don't know.

Dusk is like Indiana Jones.

That I feel like he's.

not quite qualified for the situations he finds himself in, but is still like, but he gets it done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He gets it done.

He's a little bit built different.

You know, I feel like that's what we're looking, what we're looking at here.

So I think he's gonna, I think he's going to make it work.

He's going to keep himself and others safe.

Call me an optimist, I guess.

Paul, let me ask you this.

This is a, Brandon Sanderson book, so we know nobody's going to die at least.

That's what I was going to ask you.

If you could give it genuine odds, what are the odds that Dusk dies in this book?

Good question.

I think the odds that Dusk is dead dead.

Are we saying like into the beyond dead?

He's having tea with Wayne.

He's gone.

Gotcha.

Okay.

All right.

I think there is a...

15 % chance that Dusk goes into the beyond.

Since he's the main character in this book, there's a chance.

He's also a character who seems to be...

I don't know.

My title under my name this week is Curmudgeon, and that's a bit to describe Dusk.

He's a bit of a curmudgeon.

I don't know.

I could see him making his way out of there at some point.

But yeah, I'm going to land at 15%.

I don't think it's going to happen, but I'd believe it if it does.

I think it'd be an interesting idea from Sanderson if the entire book Dusk thinks of himself as this guy from this past generation, I'm no use, and he ends up dead at the end of the book.

That'd be a very interesting idea.

He is very much Dusk leaning into that concept of, man, the world has passed me by.

I am irrelevant.

Let me read you quotes.

Chapter 13.

I am useless, Vathi.

I am a canoe in a world of steamships.

And that brought me back to some moody, really emotional Kaladin scenes where he can't get himself out of the gutter.

He's feeling sorry for himself.

I think it's funny that Dusk is just as dramatic as Kaladin is.

Self -woe.

Yeah, Kaladin and Zeth and others.

I feel like Wax is even that way sometimes.

Zeth doesn't really articulate it, though.

Zeth's like, I am a horrible person, but he doesn't really say it over and over.

bothy and kaladin are i'm sorry dusk and kaladin are like the world's so terrible i'm such you're right i'm down trotting brandon does write that character a few times i think not that's a that's a degrading way to say it i shouldn't say like that he there are multiple characters in brandon's cosmere that exhibit that kind of that kind of behavior not that brandon's writing the same character over and over he's actually very much not doing that if you're new to this podcast please please understand i'm the one of the biggest caledon fans on the face of the earth so with my credibility of that i said what i did yeah also if you're new to this podcast i hope you've read all the cosmere because we're going to spoil it all for you if you haven't yeah that is true yeah This is a book to be caught up on before you read.

Trevor, I think the big difference is Kaladin, I think, wants society to be different than it is, like isn't happy with how it is.

And I think Dusk wants there to be no society, just raw planet.

Just the island.

Just plain island and a couple trappers, but they don't even like the other trappers.

It's a fascinating connection they have.

I wanted to talk about that, actually.

Something I picked up on through these chapters is I actually think I really like Dusk's attitude towards the change and the progress.

He kind of embraces both the past and the present.

He has this deep respect and honor and this kind of mournful attitude towards the past.

The fact that he's kind of become relevant, but he also doesn't completely dismiss the modern innovations, I don't think.

There's multiple times where he really appreciates the fact that he has new tools in his toolkit, that he doesn't think you should go wear the old clothing because the old clothing was just a loincloth and running through the jungle in a loincloth is going to get you dead fast, you know, kind of things.

But tradition.

Well, I think Dusk is not necessarily in that strain of thinking of he's maybe trumpeting tradition for no other reason.

He, I think, is embracing the fact that modernity is powerful and innovative and lives can be saved with new technologies and things like that.

I think he acknowledges that, but still kind of carries this respect.

sadness for the past that is falling away like the first intro you get to him in this book is this like he's looking at the ants in the jar and he's like wow we yeah you used to make every trapper fear for their life every day and now you're just a bug in a jar you know like how how they've progressed how they've advanced and he he definitely is so puzzled by this adventure puzzled And kind of in awe.

I feel like it's, I don't know, a shock to his system.

He's like, I'm glad I don't have to fear for my life with these death ants.

But it's also like a tragedy almost for the death ants, right?

I don't know.

He seems to be mentally and emotionally pulled in different directions.

over this change which i think is pretty interesting i've been enjoying this kind of dilemma he's having even though it's uh he's probably not appreciating it near as much it'd be a lot simpler if y 'all weren't changing but with the change you know and and i think that it leaves dusk with this dilemma what is my place in this new world as the new technology comes in as new events that are much bigger than us start to unfold where do i fit in all of that which i think is why he's so quick to jump on this expedition thing trevor you were talking about this earlier of is dusk the right one to actually lead a successful expedition i we're probably going to find out by reading and finding out but i i read this as i think that's dusk jumping at okay that's at least something i think i might be able to do and i need something to do True.

He does need something to do.

He confessed to Vathi that he's bored and tackled an old crazy guy in the subway last episode.

Also that.

That is one of the common signs of boredom.

You never find yourself tackling somebody in the subway.

I think it's time for a new hobby.

Probably true.

So I think that carries us through most of through chapter 13.

Chapter 14 is the chapter where things start to get a little crazy.

Vathi steps into a trap.

Dusk is able to save her.

I guess right before that, they find a dead trapper.

So the stakes are raising a little bit.

What did you guys think of Chapter 14?

Hand cannon.

Oh, yeah.

And then the cannon.

So I forgot about the hand cannon.

It is in the previous...

uh it isn't six of the dusk i i remembered it once i heard it same with the the avr tracking device i remembered it once i heard it but i had forgotten about it and yeah bothy just blows the head off this night ma and i loved i loved dusk's reaction to it dusk is like freaking out of like yo let's go get like 45 of these things and kill every single one of them and bothy's like Whoa, whoa, hold on.

You can't do that to an ecosystem.

And Dusk says, why not?

What do you mean?

I love that exchange.

I thought that was really funny.

She's three shots.

Is that right?

She has three shots, but she's already fired two.

One off -screen and one on -screen right here.

She fired one before we met her, I think trying to defend her camp from that sea monster that came after him.

So she has only one shot left.

What do we think the poetic last bullet is going to be used for?

For Dusk.

Wow, she's going to kill Dusk?

In the flashback, yeah.

She's going to kill Dusk.

I'm going to spoil this without spoiling it.

If you had perfect recall and remembered your Six of the Dusk, you would remember what that last shot is for.

But I will not spoil it if you don't remember.

I appreciate that it's in here because I don't remember hardly any of this, which has been good.

I'm like, it's a real joy to get to feel like I'm reading that story for the first time.

even though I'm not.

I've gotten to enjoy it now two times through, which is really neat.

So glad we read that a long time ago.

I do like that we had these spaced out.

Let's talk about the night mods for just a second.

I want to explain a couple things and make sure you guys picked up on all of it.

So the mechanics of what just happened here, Vathi and Dusk are going through the jungle.

They are traveling through the middle of the night, which you're not supposed to do.

But the only reason they're doing that is because Dusk is adamant that they have to go shut down the device that Vathi's corporation has set up on the other side of the island that is messing with all the AVR.

They tried to turn it on.

All the AVR freaked out.

Dusk is like, okay, we got to shut that off right now.

So they're running through the middle of the night in the middle of the jungle, kind of asking to get eaten.

But they got to get to that device.

They're running through the jungle.

They find a dead trapper.

It's like kind of someone.

Dusk knows, but not a lot, maybe.

They search his body.

They find a book with some notes.

They take the medallion off of him.

I think they grab like a machete and a few other things.

Then they say, okay, so he died because of Kakabon's fingers.

Kakabon's fingers is a tree that grows fruit.

The fruit is not what killed him.

Vati kind of asks Dusk about this.

Dusk says, no, it's not the plant.

But what happens is the plant has fruit and the fruit have thoughts.

The fruit are broadcasting a mental signature.

And the nightmaw, like a lot of other things on this planet apparently, hunt by sensing the presence of minds.

So the nightmaw think it's food, that it's an animal, that it's a...

herbivore -type animal, perhaps, that's over there.

I'm going to go that way and eat it.

So if you are around the plant, the cocklebon's fingers, when the fruit is in bloom, then that's not a place you want to be because the predators are going to come find you.

You guys track all that?

Yes.

Yes.

And they only bloom during the day?

I don't remember when they bloom.

He's like poking at it.

And Voth is like, aren't those super dangerous?

That guy just died to it.

And he's like, no, it's not in bloom right now.

It is definitely not in bloom at the moment that they're there.

I don't remember if it's a day night thing.

So the fruit has thoughts.

Don't stand around the fruit when it's in bloom.

However, despite it being safe, a night moss still finds them, which.

Dusk kind of chalks up to, eh, he must have just come across our trail and followed our scent.

So the night mob pops in, then we get the whole shoot the cannon part of all that.

In the midst of all this, I think I mentioned this for a second earlier, Dusk takes a medallion off of the other trapper.

As he's saving Vathi from the trap that she steps into by accident, he gives her the medallion, and he says something.

I should have wrote down what he said.

I forget what it is.

But it's it's pretty much an adoption of her as an apprentice.

And she doesn't know this.

She doesn't know this ritual, but he does.

And he even thinks to himself, why did I do that?

Why did I just give her the apprentice speech?

Yeah.

What do you guys think of that?

Yeah, I thought this was fun.

It seemed like, you know, you're it's the typical.

people meet and they don't it's the the enemies to friends like trope you know or something like that they're gonna start to get along and he's gonna he he he didn't have an apprentice or wasn't planning to and then this happens and oh now he's he's got an apprentice and it's not the apprentice you would expect it's not even a trapper you know uh seems like that kind of trope stereotype situation is going on which is pretty cool I mean I like it I think it's fun yeah here's what it means it means Vathi is the chosen one and is meant to rise up against the Sith but will instead join them and betray them all and all the trappers will die at the end of the book Which we basically got confirmed in the vision that Scott from Socks.

Correct.

Done.

Where she's wearing one of the ones above's uniform and puts down some rebellion.

Yeah.

There you go.

There you go.

Heard it here first.

Sounds familiar to me, but I can't put my finger on it.

I'll patent it or copyright it.

One of the two.

Copyright.

I think a nine movie series would be perfect for that.

I think I'm going to keep it a six.

Oh, okay.

That works, I guess.

Maybe seven.

Yeah, okay.

All righty.

So in our chapters here, I think where we leave our characters then, Dusk knows, okay, we got to go.

There's more Nightmaws coming for us.

We got to get to Pachi's Eye.

So they're heading off to Pachi's Eye, which we know is the perpendicularity pool.

So they're scampering off that way.

I have two outside shot predictions.

Are we ready for them?

Before we do, I want to go back really quick.

There was something I was trying to remember, and I was trying to remember exactly.

We started talking about...

Vathi as an apprentice, and I was trying to remember back what I wanted to say.

Okay.

So, before they make the decision, right, to go out at night, Dusk mentions he's done this one other time ever, right?

And the one other time, was it his uncle that died?

And it was because he fumbled the death ant.

anti -venom right and and his uncle died so he hasn't since then and so um that's largely you know just conveys like the rareness it's not like okay yeah you don't go out on patchy at night but like the maybe the really experienced trappers can do so it's like no nobody nobody even does it nobody nobody tries and i just think that was a good uh connection like a way to kind of show that very tragic to hear from that that is that is like accurate to the story we read before right it is yeah that was that was part of the part of the story from the novella as well and yeah gut punch moment which i didn't remember and so it hit me hard this time around too was when you get that reveal that dusk is the reason why his uncle is dead it was directly his fault that he did not survive and dusk doesn't like super beat himself up over that just because dusk doesn't say or even like think too many words necessarily but i you can tell it's it affects him and he's not okay it affects him but not as much as it would like kaladin for example right because because they're on patchy And that's part of their thing, is at some point, whether you're 12 or whether you're 40, Patchy's going to kill you.

And that's just who we are.

And so, yeah, I messed up.

Yeah, Patchy claimed my uncle, but I guess it was time to go.

So, I mean, it does bother, but not as much as it could.

I think you summed it up there well.

I agree with that.

So now you're welcome to go on to your theories, Trevor.

Okay, two outside shot theories that I came up with randomly today.

One of them I will start with.

I am less confident in.

I think this is less likely to happen.

However, we're about to go sailing, presumably, on the Shadesmar non -ocean blah, blah, blah.

What hangs out in Shadesmar?

Cognitive shadows.

What?

What are cognitive shadows in vested beings that have died and still have an investiture?

I think it's perfectly plausible that Cokerly is just hanging out.

Because Cokerly is the invested bird that died two years ago or whatever it was to the to the bird plague, to the bird flu.

And he Cokerly is a guy Cokerly.

He he could just be, you know.

following them around on the cognitive realm waiting for them you know uh coca -cola was an avr yes but one of them's male one of them's female and i always flip them yeah i mess with you no i i think you're right about that i see no reason why coca -cola wouldn't be there i it seems like coca -cola seems to still be present on dusk's mind as well sure i don't think that will happen But I wouldn't be too surprised if we go through and we find Cokerly just hanging out somewhere.

And just so I understand your theory here, you're tying this to maybe some of the other instances we've seen where someone died, but cognitive shadow continued on?

Yeah, like they're just feeding off investiture on the Shadesmore realm, cognitive realm.

Okay, sure.

Cokerly could have been stapled to the perpendicularity like Kelsier was.

Okay.

Okay.

Yep.

Okay.

I think I'm following.

So that's not a super common thing, but we have seen it more than once.

Right.

Like if you're invested when you die, which presumably Cokerly was because Cokerly is an invested bird.

Right.

The bird would have hung out for at least a little bit and could have feasibly done something to exist.

Anyway, I don't think that'll happen, but it's plausible.

Second one, one I am more confident on.

I think there is a decent shot we see Milan in this book.

At the end of The Lost Metal, Milan is in an epilogue, like 18 months later.

It's like 12 or 16, I don't remember.

16 months after the Lost Metal, she is in Shadesmar on a mission for Harmony, and she's in a boat with one of those...

Shoot.

It's the forearm things.

Yeah, the Dar, Suli Dar, something like that.

Yeah.

I don't remember what they're called.

Some race who we haven't really talked or met much besides...

Nightmare Painter and...

Yeah, anyway.

So, Milan is off...

The Yulee Da.

Oh, I was close.

Yulee Da.

She's in a boat with a Yulee Da.

Nope.

Nope.

I was led the wrong way.

Shodel?

Thank you.

That does sound better.

Shodel.

Shodel is a four -armed creature.

Anyway.

Yes.

There we go.

She's in a boat.

With a show Dell.

And she's like sailing a, an ocean of mist or something like that.

And that could feasibly be the cognitive realm around where first the sun is.

And maybe we're sending early scouting missions to first of the sun.

I like that tie a lot.

There's an outside shot that Milan shows up.

I, of course, will not weigh in one way or the other, but I like your thinking.

All right.

Paul, anything, any other thoughts that we missed that you want to go back to before we wrap it?

Nothing to go back to.

I don't think we're going to see Milan, but cool theory, Trevor.

How many recurring characters did you predict?

Not that many.

I think I predicted 12, so I have to get as many in here as I can.

I think that was including the characters we already know were going to be a part of this.

So, maybe you're right.

I have to fit in as many as humanly possible to get my 12 or 13, whatever I said.

I see.

Alright, then in that case, I think...

the night moths are actually the what do they call the unbounded brotherhood from that that adeline leads yeah the unknown i think they've become nightmare okay okay so i think i think now we're really getting off rails yeah in a couple chapters i mean you were right about shallan being uh light song so it could happen yeah All right, so I think that will wrap us up for today.

I've got a special assignment for you guys.

Next week, we are going to be reading chapters 17 through 21.

So come back next week for our episode on 17 through 21.

Paul and Trevor, you have a special assignment.

For chapter 21, I would like you to read that chapter.

in the physical copy the first time you read it do not do the audiobook for chapter 21 there's an experience i need you to have and i want your reaction on how it goes so please if at all possible i don't read books i i know i know you have to go back to the stone age actually break out ink and and paper i'm a true lefty man i need the book read to me You're going to have to be a heretic here for just one chapter.

Just one chapter.

That's all I'm asking.

Not going to ask this of you again for the rest of this book.

Maybe chapter 21.

Read that one in the physical copy.

And we're going to talk about it when we come back next week.

Okay.

Okay.

I can do it.

I'll break you out.

Would you advise first -time listeners to do that same thing?

I would.

I would strongly.

recommend this if you are following along with us and reading these chapters as you go close your audiobook and go find a friend who has the physical copy borrow it from them for 30 minutes 20 minutes read chapter 21 in the physical copy and then you can hand it back you'll know exactly what i'm talking about as soon as you read this uh read this chapter you will you will get an experience that audiobook listeners i guarantee you will not be getting Just to clarify once again, so once I have finished chapter 20 and I'm starting chapter 21, I need to pick up the physical book.

Correct.

Yes, you can go all the way to the end of chapter 20 and then pause it at chapter 21, go read that one in the physical book, and then you can go back to your audiobook after that.

Perfect.

Because Starling is going to meet...

We haven't talked about Starling at all, by the way.

Yeah, we haven't got the Starling chapter.

Starling is going to meet Dusk and it's going to be right on the page that I predicted.

So that's why.

That might be the reason.

But we'll find out next week.

So with that, that wraps us up for episode 279.

Until next week, Paul and Trevor.

Toodles.

Starling waiting room.