All of This is why I think the prosperity gospel becomes so persuasive.

Are you preaching that American prosperity gospel?

He said.

No, Jesus was not born in America.

Are you mad at me about that?

And they're like, well, maybe I need to listen to more Joel Osteen or Kenneth Copeland, and maybe I need to think bigger thoughts.

I get a lot of Flack in that I don't go as hard against the prosperity.

Gospel.

When do you see that it does kind of cross that line?

There's this draw back to tradition, whether it's the Greek Orthodox Church, even Catholicism.

Well it's it's so easy to be against what I'm saying because it is anti cultural to say hey.

Bruce LON.

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Right, let's jump into the video.

With what you're writing about, I think it's really, really interesting to kind of discuss this aspect within our culture.

Like we were just talking about Jean Marc Comer.

So we're having this like, you know, this, this rest even in like progressive spaces, there's this draw back to tradition, whether it's the Greek Orthodox Church, even Catholicism, you know, and I kind of get it.

I do my family, my parents were married in the Greek Orthodox Church.

And it's there's something very deep about the tradition and all the things.

And so with what you're writing about, though, you're talking about ambition, like you're talking about going to get it and, and, and putting your your foot forward and that it's not like a unbiblical thing to do.

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that other part of culture that kind of seems to be against what you're saying.

Well, it's, it's so easy to be against what I'm saying because it one, it's, it is anticultural to say, hey, there's a way that you can build a life that blesses God, that helps people lead your family well without losing your soul.

And it does require effort and restraint and a vision and a plan.

It's not going to happen magical where God's just going to send money fairy dust on your life and then you become rich overnight.

Like that's not how any of this works.

And yeah, it is it is very countercultural.

I think there's a lot of reasons why.

One of the reasons is I think people are burnt on hustle culture, rightfully so, which I think is why John Mark Comer's work is so popular.

I think 2:00 because the prosperity gospel is so poisonous in so many different ways, because it puts the onus on you if you believe more, if you just pray more than God will do the thing.

And I think that's that's awful because like they're like, there are people that believe and don't get their healing and don't get their miracle right.

And to just put that on them, I think it's it's unhelpful.

And I also think that there is this might be more even than probably the most controversial.

Have you seen the Did you watch the Jubilee surrounded 20 versus 1?

Oh, I've seen him, a few of them.

Which one are you referring to?

So Patrick bid David, who I'm not like fully endorsing everything he does in in his life, but he just did 11 capitalist versus 20 anti capitalist.

Yeah, OK.

I'm.

Going to react.

I'm going to react to it and the degree of just utter communistic Marxist thinking that's crept into the church with regards to themes around finances, private property rights, work ethic is is so bad.

And I'm not just talking about progressive circles, like I'm talking in evangelical circles, right?

Just this, this, this disdain for anyone that has done anything significant that it that they're bad, they're evil.

And in in the in the video, I mean, it's very revealing.

He offered multiple people's jobs, multiple people jobs.

He offered multiple people to get treatment that specialized treatment that they couldn't afford if they went and saw a, a solid psychologist and they had like people just turn it down.

So I think there's also a disdain for the the free market system, which has its own issues and has its own flaws.

And I think some of that has crept into the church, not just in progressive circles, but like in regular evangelical circles where people were just angry.

100% yeah.

It's interesting because, you know, my background, my wheelhouse is new thought, right?

And that's at the beginning of like the capitalist boom in America.

And yeah, right, the prosperity thinking like Napoleon Hill.

You have MLM's, business gurus, you have people that are using these positive thinking techniques that worked.

You know what I mean?

Like it actually worked.

But along with it, you're having kind of like this pseudo spirituality go along with it.

That's a whole other thing.

But the overall mentality I agreed with when it came to especially being in America, in a country where you have so much opportunity to grow, so much opportunity to build a business, to do whatever you wanted.

I totally took that for granted.

Like as a kid, as an adult, I, I see it so differently now.

I'm like, man, I can do whatever I want.

Like this is so great.

I if I believe it, I can do it and kind of thing, you know, And so there's, there's that that's in the water in America.

But I see what you're saying though, with all of that stuff coming into not just of America, but the church, because it's looked at as a virtue to to yeah, you know what I'm saying?

Like it's looked at as a virtue, like, wow, look at all that I do.

Look at all the things that I'm giving and helping all these people.

What would you say to?

Because what I what I see is it's a strong word, but almost like a victim mentality because here's here's the problem.

Tell me what you think about this, Ruslan.

So I see this and I'm an observer.

I like watching people.

And then I might, you know, say something or do something, but I watched for a long time.

And here's a pattern that I'm seeing is that we're in America, we're in this, We're talking about ambition, right?

And then we'll talk about the difference between the two because I want to ask you about that too.

But you have this ambitious mindset and a lot of people in whatever group that they're in, no matter where they're at in America, and they say, I want to be this, I want to be a CEOI want to be a rapper, I want to be a YouTube, I want to be, you know, a doctor, whatever, right?

But then you have this other group saying no, no, no, you don't want to be ACEO.

Those are the bad guys.

They just make money and they're greedy, right?

You don't want to be this capitalist freak, so stay here, right?

OK, so you have this tug in this pool because you think that it's a vice to become successful in America because then you're going to be rich and then you're going to be pushing these other people down and there's this constant tension.

What do you say about that?

Because I think it creates like a victim mentality.

But what?

What do you think?

Well, I think the frame of everything you described as a 0 sum game, so the view that in order for someone to make a profit that someone else is losing somehow, right?

And I just don't think that that's how the broader value system works.

Like if I'm buying something, that doesn't mean that I'm somehow the victim and I got exploited and the person on the other end of that is coming up and got pulling over on me.

Like those are the generally like those products, especially today would be like that's a scam or they'll get they'll get blasted for bad reviews, right.

So I think I think 1 is just a 0 sum mentality of like, Hey, if you don't, someone doesn't have to lose in order for someone to win.

That doesn't mean that everybody's always going to win.

But I think foundationally that like that's a, that's a huge, huge crux.

And so my opinion is people are going to go after something that they aim at.

And if they don't aim at anything, then they're going to hit it all the time.

And that is just uncomfortable for people.

And then when you add the spiritual component to it, then we're pulling verses like first Timothy 6, you know, for the love of money is a route to all kinds of evil.

But we're we're we're removing it from first Timothy 5, which says he who does not provide for the needs of his family, specifically his immediate family has denied the faith and is worse than a non believer.

That's in the context, by the way, of a church welfare system that's taking care of widows, right?

As in take care of your own widows and your own elderly, the widows that are young that can get married, let them get remarried and the widows that no one can take care of, that's who the church is supposed to care for.

So it's this really interesting layout that Paul does.

And so I think what's happened and, and I'd actually like to hear thoughts on this.

I think people think that that's easy.

Like people think First Timothy 5 is easy, like take care of your own family and your immediate family or you're worse than I believe.

And they're like, oh, that's so easy.

And so they think the temptation is becoming too successful and too rich and too powerful.

And it's like, listen, that and I'm not, and I'm not trying to dunk on our, our sisters in Christ here, but that's like women who are like, Hey, I'm afraid to go to the gym because I'm going to get too bulky.

It's like, or guys that are like, I'm afraid to go to the gym because I'm going to get too jacked and too vain.

And, and listen, there's a chasm of a difference of like where most of us are to just maintain a healthy body fat percentage and to just stay within a healthy BMI and like becoming too attractive because you're too jacked and too in shape, right?

You're too, there's a chasm of a difference.

So it's like assuming that it's easy, it's not, it's not easy to say, hey, I have enough to provide from my family and by the way, taking my mother-in-law if I need to, or taking my sister-in-law or taking my niece if I have like that's not easy to do.

That's actually difficult.

Yet that seems to be the standard in Scripture in terms of how every one of us live.

And so that then creates this weird like, well, y'all think this is easy?

Like nothing about being a provider of a household is easy.

It's actually very difficult, especially in the climate that we're in today with wealth inequality, AI jobs getting automated, jobs getting sent overseas.

And then what do you think is going to happen to the Christian that's like too afraid to become successful because they think that they're going to become too rich and too powerful and get too much money and then walk away from God?

I think most people are on the other end of the spectrum where their issue is not too much ambition.

Their issue is apathy and being the the servant that buried their talents because there's so much cognitive dissonance if I do, if I get too big and too bulky and too vain and too successful.

And it's like, let's just get us to baseline.

Like we're not even at baseline.

Like most people are living paycheck to paycheck.

Most people don't have anything in their savings.

Most people don't have anything in terms of the overflow of a biblical worldview on finances.

And then we want to talk about First Timothy.

6th love of money is the root of all evil.

I'm going to say this last part that also assumes that the love of money is only a vice that wealthy people succumb to or successful people succumb to.

I would say the person and that's squandering everything they earn also has an issue with the love of money.

I would say the person that's spending everything they make it also has an issue with the love of money and greed because they can't even they, they can't even live below their means right now.

Some of that is environmental.

Some of that I understand.

There's all kinds of awful, tragic situations I'm talking about.

I'm generally speaking in the West in the most prosperous opportune time that we've ever existed.

Like, I just don't see the Apostle Paul arriving in 2025 and being like, Hey, you guys, really young men, you guys really need to turn, turn it down and like rest more.

Like I, I, I'm like, I don't see, I don't see Peter.

Like man, you guys are just doing too much.

Like it's just too much.

You know, you gotta be careful because you might.

And it's like, I don't, I don't see.

I think they're going to say, Hey, are you even able to provide for your wife and kids and, and, and, and create a life that's sustainable for them?

Save something for retirement.

So you can, you can retire with dignity.

That's that's where I think we're at.

And, and, and maybe because I came out of like the Dave Ramsey paradigm, maybe because I got out of debt, maybe because I've seen the, the overflow of like living below your means, saving, having a budget, getting out of debt, giving generously, cheerfully.

I, I just, I just tend to have a different paradigm of, of this stuff.

So anyway, I know I said a whole lot there and, and, and bounced a whole lot off.

And by the way, and all of This is why I think the, the, the prosperity gospel becomes so persuasive because so many people have tried it and have failed.

And they're like, well, maybe I need to listen to more Joel Osteen or Kenneth Copeland and maybe I need to think bigger thoughts.

And I think that's, so I say to say, if we're not giving people a biblical alternative, then they're they're going to slide into apathy or they're going to slide into prosperity gospel or manifestation, new Age thought.

And that concerns me.

Like that troubles me deeply because outside of Dave Ramsey and maybe a handful of other people, I don't think anyone's talking about these things in a healthy way.

This is it's a very interesting angle that you're hitting on because it's a spiritual aspect to it, because I, OK, I remember taking a class in seminary and you read such interesting and sometimes really boring like books and seminary.

One of them that my professor kept talking about.

It was a political, not a political.

Was it political science?

I think it was a political science class, but we're talking about economics, like the different theories of economy, like socialism, capitalism, all the things libertarianism.

And one book he kept bringing up was money, greed and God.

Have you ever read this book?

It sounds amazing though.

It really is because you're talking about this, you're talking about a spiritual aspect of it, but everything that is aligned with God is aligned with truth, right?

And so if you're having, if we're talking about economics and we're talking about ways in which you can make wealth in your country, OK, like This is why capitalism is it's a hot topic because it's not perfect.

But if you're talking about tested, tried and true ways to make prosperity in your country, this market, like, you know what I mean?

And so this book in a very, very philosophical, succinct, truthful way, breaks down everything.

A lot of what you're you're talking about.

I had to look it up because as you were talking like, oh, yeah, this book, because that's what it reminded me of the other one.

OK, so there's another book that has a similar title that does go into spiritual things, and it's God, Greed and the Prosperity Gospel by Costy Hinn.

Have you read that?

No, I've watched a lot of Costy Hinn's stuff, but I've never read any of his work.

So costy he was a very this book is really interesting to read and it might be something that people might think about as a follow up to your what you wrote about.

And the reason why is because he talks a lot about in the end, because this is a common question he got.

And I remember this because he comes from the prosperity gospel.

And the idea is, well, what do you do when you're a Christian and you want you're, you're rich, right?

I mean, is it a sin to be having all of this, all all this financial gain?

And isn't this greedy?

Isn't this power?

Isn't this, this isn't that?

And his, his answer was so good and succinct.

And he's saying like, no, it's a responsibility.

You're stewarding this.

And it goes into what you were just saying about I, I think you even wrote about this in your book, The Stewardship of what We have.

Yeah, it's a responsibility.

It's not a sin.

It's a responsibility.

So if you do happen to be rich and a Christian, that's not a sin.

It's a, it's more of a responsibility you're providing for you and your family, but the more that you are given, the more responsibility you have.

And so that that kind of I'm, I'm paraphrasing, but that actually really made sense to me.

OK, so here's a question with all of that.

What do you have to say about the Christian who might be listening or maybe, you know, listening to this kind of us having this conversation?

And they're like, well, what does the Bible say about contentment?

Like, doesn't Scripture say that that's the goal is that we should be content in what we have?

Why do we always have to be trying to grow and grow and grow?

Won't we ever be just happy with what we have?

What would you say in response to that?

Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question.

And let me just piggyback what you said.

So this is actually addressed in church history in in a book called Who is the Rich man that She'll be saved?

A book by St.

Clement of Alexandria.

And and because what was happening is that all the sudden there was wealthy people that were coming to faith and they were trying to process what do you do with all these folks that are coming to faith?

And it wasn't it, it it was this is I think the 1st century ish.

Someone will get, you know, correct me on that if I'm wrong.

Yeah, this is this is pretty early that that the church was the church history was dealing with it.

Yeah.

So I think contentment is the launchpad to godly ambition.

I think contentment is the frame in which we can move towards stewardship, right?

Because if you're not content with what you have, that means that you're already lacking gratitude.

And gratitude tends to be the rocket fuel to actually grow in stewardship.

Because me as someone that worked with adults with developments with disabilities, right, that was my last like quote UN quote 9 to 5 type job when we went through a financial transformation and paid off a lot of debt.

I was not a YouTube, I was not a rapper.

I was not doing anything special.

I was working a regular job with adults with developments with disabilities.

My wife was working a regular job.

I think she had two jobs at the time.

I think she was working at the city of Vista and working at US mailing House, two-part time jobs.

And I was trying to get the music off the ground on the side.

And so that contentment becomes the launchpad into trying to improve the things that God has already entrusted you with, right?

So again, I go always go back to the parable of the talents, right?

One has five, one has three, one has 1.

And I think when you see yourself as someone that has been given gifts, talents, visions, dreams, ideas, ways to solve problems, you see yourself as someone like that.

I think the launchpad to that has to be contentment.

So I don't, I don't think that these are in opposition because I first have to be OK with saying, hey, if I never make any more money, I never do anything special, Am I happy with what God has for me?

And I would say if you are, that becomes the launchpad to say, OK now in that I want to manage what God has given me to be the optimal steward of the time, talented treasure.

And so I think these things are complementary.

I don't think they're in in contrast or in contradiction.

And usually we like to go one of two extremes, right?

Like we naturally go to like it's one of the other.

Like I either got to always put my head down and grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, or I have to go and just be super content.

But the scriptures in Proverbs 6 talks about this gazelle intensity that, that Dave Ramsey talks about, right?

And in Proverbs 6, it describes someone that has went into debt.

They've they've made some bad decisions.

And then in it, it, it, it says like, Hey, if you have done this, you need to go through a season of cleaning up your mess.

I'm paraphrasing, but I'll, I'll read it to you, right?

It says, my son, if you've put up security for your neighbor, if you have shaken hands in a pledge for a stranger, you have been trapped by what you said, ensnared by the words of your mouth.

So do this, my son, to free yourself.

Since you have fallen into your neighbor's hands, go to the point of exhaustion and give your neighbor no rest.

Allow no sleep to your eyes, no slumber to your eyelids.

Free yourself like a gazelle from the hand of the.

Hunter like a bird from the snare of the Fowler Go to the Ant, you sluggard, consider its ways and be wise.

It has no commander, no overseer or ruler, yet it stores its provision in summer and gathers its food at harvest.

Right.

So this is describing someone that's made a mess of their situation because they've they've made a pledge with their neighbor and it says you need to be intense for a season.

OK, Now this is even using really intense language that like our Sabbath culture is going to find very offensive.

Allow no sleep to your eyes, no slumber to your eyelids.

I don't think Solomon is being literal in that sense.

Like I don't think he's saying like don't sleep and don't ever rest.

But I think he is saying that, hey, there are times in life, there are seasons in life where we have to put our head down and clean up some of the messes that we've made or some of the messes that we've arrived in.

Maybe maybe you didn't make it.

Maybe this is your situation and that season is going to be different than a season when, I don't know, me and my wife are having a baby.

I think I told you this, right?

We have a baby coming in November, right?

So like that's a different season.

Like when my wife has a baby, I'm not traveling, I'm not speaking, I'm not promoting a book.

I'm present because my wife just had a baby.

That's a lot of changes.

That's a lot of physical changes on her body.

That's a different season.

And I think we want all to nothing, right?

So contentment is just contentment.

But don't ignore that there are seasons in life where you got to put your head down and work and that's good.

Like that's a good thing and got to has designed the universe to work in A cause and effect reality that, that, that like it's not this like the universe is working for you and, and you just got to believe it and things don't happen to you, they happen for you or whatever, whatever those cheesy friends like.

No, no, no, there's a cause and effect universe.

And when we make some mistakes, there are going to be effects of that.

And then we get to figure out how are we going to navigate that?

Are we are we going to process this and work through it?

Or are we just going to allow ourselves to succumb to the culmination of the mistakes we've made or perhaps the ways of people have sinned against us?

That's what Proverbs 6 is, is getting out of my opinion.

And so yeah, I think contentment yesterday, men.

And then also be self aware of what season you're in.

And you may need to go a little harder.

You might need to work a little longer.

You might need to pick up a side hustle, get on task rabbit drive for Uber to clean up some of those messes.

Not indefinitely, but we're for a season.

Yeah, it sounds like there's godly ambition and godly contentment because I mean, it's the no matter what happens.

And I think that's where godly comes in, where it's hard to be content without having God as the pinnacle of your life, because that's how we can get through anything.

Is that in in it's what Paul says, you know, in sickness and in health and in great poverty and great wealth.

He's been through it all and he has found that there's contentment in Christ.

And so I think that there's, yeah, there's a there's a connection there.

What do you have to say for OK, The hustle culture.

You mentioned the hustle culture.

There's this really funny comedian.

I don't even know if you know who he is.

He was a part of the Dad Life video many years ago.

I don't know if you've ever seen it.

It was hilarious, though.

It's for it was for Father's Day.

And he has these different personas.

His name is Chris Munch, and he has these different personas that he that he plays.

And one persona is I think it's MLM Dave.

I think it's the name of it.

Yeah, I think it's what it is.

And basically he is just portraying like the scummiest version of hustle culture.

And every time he does this character, I think of Bruslan because I'm like, oh, this is what Ruslan's talking about, right?

Like, he's talking about the gritty, gross stuff that, you know, comes in this.

But the problem is obvious, right?

Because you have like, why do people have hustle culture?

You have the Andrew Tates.

You have people out that, yeah, like, you have people out there who are kind of scummy, but you have a wave.

They have waves of followers that are like, yeah, this is the, this is the motivation I need.

This is what I need to hear.

This is exactly what I needed in my life to help me get my life together.

And then on top of that, I mean, Speaking of MLMS, you do have a lot of where my wheelhouse comes in where you deal with a lot of the spiritual pseudoscience nonsense, where the new the new thought stuff comes in saying if you change the way you're thinking, if you change your attitude, which is true, then you will get results.

And this is how you become rich.

You got to work, work, work, work.

But this is all of this is like used as almost like a, like propaganda, but you know, it, it's used as a way to kind of get you to work harder for, for them.

It's like you're kind of tricked into it, if that makes sense, right?

And you have this hustle culture and there's some good things that go along with it.

But I'm wondering, like just everything I've said, what are your thoughts on this?

Because this is the problem is that I can see a lot of people thinking that what you're saying is that I'm already working hard and that I need to basically work harder.

And this ties into maybe people who might not have the best attitude or maybe they're down on their luck.

This is how this kind of culture even exists because they're getting spoken to with positive, you know, in positive ways.

They're being pulled up by their boots.

They're they're encouraged.

They feel like, yeah, I can do this, but it's honestly done through like the most negative means.

So what do you, how would you speak into that?

Like what would you say to somebody who's in maybe like a, a high?

What's it called?

Like a like you have to work really hard, like a high maintenance, if you will, a business group, A seminar, an MLM.

And they are in the hustle culture, but it's like the scummier part.

What would you say is like the better, truer aspect of that?

Yeah, I I I think of First Thessalonians 4 where Paul says, you know, make it your ambitiously to quiet life, working with your own hands.

That's the the the the word ambition there.

That's what the whole book is based on.

It's a different word for ambition than the selfish ambition that's described, which is like a self striving, cutting ambition at Ethia is the Greek version of the selfish ambition.

And then this is like a filio filio multi ambition, which is as ambition that serves other people.

So Paul says making the ambition to the quiet life.

And then he says he makes it his ambition to preach the gospel where others haven't.

And then the other time he uses it in the New Testament, he says, make it.

I'm making my ambition to please God, right?

So those are the three times the the godly ambition he's used.

So I think my question for those folks would be like, are you, are you trying to, is this, are you being driven by selfish ambition or are you being driven by godly ambition to serve other people?

Because if I'm, what if they're?

They're they're doing godly ambition, but it's actually selfish.

Like what would you say?

So I I would say working with your own hands, right?

I think this idea that like becoming successful is going to be easy if you just find the shortcut through something like an MLM is just not true.

This is what I mean.

The people that are actually going to become the the most successful in this next season is not going to be guys who are selling some sort of MLM type product.

The, the most direct path right now is actually going to be in the true collar jobs or the blue collar jobs that can't be automated, right?

So this idea of like, hey, I'm down on my luck, I'm struggling.

So therefore I'm going to go join Herbalife and that's going to be my way out.

It it that that's actually not it Like you need to go develop some blue collar skills, whether that's plumbing, whether that's welding.

I got a friend of mine who reads, reads out.

I got a friend of mine who he did, he was a stay at home dad.

I had him on my channel.

I tried to link it.

He is a stay at home dad and they were really struggling and then he went and did this program at a local 16 week certification program.

And he is someone that climbs the electrical lines, works for our our SDG and E making multiple 6 figures, right?

That's going to be the pathway that has a sustainable, sustainable career that is not going to get replaced with automation and AI.

So it's actually the opposite.

Like this idea that like you're just going to go so Herbalife and that's going to be your pathway to become wealthy or stable or financially.

Like it's just, it's just not true anymore because so much stuff is getting automated so quickly, right?

And so I think they're looking at it totally backwards.

If you think that like you don't need to have skills you can do with your hands, like I think that working with your own hands actually says a whole lot and, and there's something to that.

So it's like, what can you do with your own hands that cannot be automated?

And if your job is just trying to sell a product you don't really believe in and, and then not and, and worse, selling opportunity, which is much of the MLM world.

I don't want to hyper generalize too much, but it's actually the money isn't selling the opportunity to get rich, not the actual product to to to make money on.

I think all of that is completely backwards to to what we see in in God, the ambition.

And so I've succumbed when I was when I turned 18, I got recruited to a MLM.

I succumb to some of that sort of stuff.

And I just woke up one day and was like, why am I selling something I don't believe in, in this opportunity?

And I don't really even let me figure out how to like, be a artist and sell my music instead, right?

Like, I think that's a more direct path.

It's like a product that I can stand by.

It's like, I made this CD.

Would you please buy it for 15 bucks versus trying to sell something that I didn't make?

So yeah, the, the, the negative aspect I think is prying, praying on people and selling them an opportunity that this is a, a shortcut to getting wealthy.

And there are no shortcuts to getting wealthy.

It that, that is not how it works unless you get lucky.

And then if you do, you really don't want that cause your character is not going to be caught up to handle getting rich quick overnight, right?

So there is no shortcut.

And I think that's the, the MLM's, they sell you a dream and a hope that this is the surefire way.

And then you end up selling more of an opportunity to other people.

You then sell the dream in the hope to other people if you're going to become successful at it, not the actual product.

So I don't know if that answers your question.

I know I just, I just said a whole lot there.

No, no, that's good.

Yeah.

So this is the one thing that really jumps out at me about this whole topic is that there's always like sidelines, right?

I mean, I have AII like to think I have a pretty eccentric family because, you know, I was a semi professional artist for years.

That's what that was my bread and butter before YouTube.

And then I'm on YouTube, which is really fun, you know, getting degrees and multiple things like I, there's so many hats of interests, so to speak out that we wear my husband's a hot air balloon pilot and I just, I, I love America.

I love that we can like do this, right, that I'm interested in this and I can make a way to make it happen and maybe even make funds from it.

If it's a hobby, great.

But here's my question.

So with all of the opportunity that we have, when does it cross the line to become selfish?

Because here's the mentality that I find a lot of people have is that it's never enough.

Like we're we're talking about contentment.

This kind of I think undergirds this whole thing because with all the things that I have access to and the things that we do, I am so happy.

Like I feel great.

I feel I love my family.

I feel good that I can wake up everyday and do what we're doing, but we're not rich, right?

Like we're not wealthy.

When is it when it comes to giving advice about ambition, about going and doing something that you love and that you're good at?

When do you see that?

It does kind of cross that line because I, I see people are like, well, I want to get here, I want to get here, I want to get here.

And you know what it reminds me of?

I remember one time there was another YouTube or they were on Instagram or something and they were a Christian and I remember them saying that this is like the IC factor.

He didn't say those words, but that's the kind of the way I see it, I call this the IC factor, that there's never going to be enough Subs.

You're never going to have enough followers.

You're never going to have enough fill in the blank.

And once you realize that you're on a hamster wheel and if you are on that hamster wheel, you'll know it because you'll wake up every day just grinding like you don't feel right.

It's icky.

What would you say to somebody that might be struggling with that where they're like, yeah, I'm doing what I'm good at and I like it, but I feel like it, I, I'm working on this hamster wheel to get there.

Like how do, how do you square that circle, you know, for the, for people that might be struggling with that?

Yeah, if that makes sense.

No, that makes a lot of sense.

I think the question becomes what is the what what is, Is there a goal where you're even working for or do you just like the process of trying to build something new, right.

So I think like we were talking about the book and writing the book and all this sort of stuff, right?

And it's like there is there is a process that some of us fall in love with regarding communicating ideas regarding building something that hopefully helps other people.

Some of us like it more than others.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with someone saying, Hey, I, I love this process and I'm enjoying this process.

And therefore I'm going to and I don't really care where the results are.

Like I want this book to be successful, but I genuinely loved talking about this.

And I, and it's going to do whatever God is, let's it do and however God breathes on it versus saying like, I need to sell this many books in order to feel secure.

And if I don't feel secure, then I'm a fit, right?

I'm a failure.

I think that becomes a outward measurement of your identity and success.

And I that stuff you just can't always control, right?

You can't control the number of people that choose to opt in and subscribe to your channel.

You can't control the number of books you sell.

You can't control.

There's certain things that we can't control.

I think godly ambition and godly stewardship is saying, I'm going to do the inputs in an attempt to steward and be faithful by hopefully helping other people through the, the, the the wisdom I've had the scars I've developed and maybe those those will help other people.

And then God ultimately breathes on the thing, right?

Like God breathes on the thing and, and where it lands.

Now, how does that, how does that practically look?

I think for me, we have a very simple goal in terms of financially, I would love to be able to have a paid for home within the next 5-10 years.

Like that would be a great goal for me because this that the goal isn't more stuff like I don't need a bigger home.

I don't need more expenses and responsibilities.

Like I want to be to decrease my, my, my expenses so that I can increase my giving and my generosity and have more of that flexibility.

So that's like a very specific thing that we've talked about before that it was like, hey, we want to get to of being debt free, then we want to have six months of living expenses in the bank.

So I think if people know like if you're aiming at these things, then you know that when you hit this, then cool, That's that's the thing you're aiming for.

The issue is we don't know what we're aiming at.

So what you do is you slide into more, more, more, more, more, when in reality you don't need more, you may not need more.

Now again, I say having a paid for home to someone in Alabama or in Arkansas, they'd be like, oh, that's, I did that last year.

My home's worth $100,000, right To say that in Southern California, that sounds crazy, right?

Like so even even the even that's relative, like that's relative based on where someone lives, right?

To say in Southern California, I want to have a paid for home because I want to decrease my biggest expense, which is my housing and be able to have more flexibility and margin in my life.

That sounds like crazy talk, But if you're in a different part of the country, that's like, oh, that's, that's very reasonable, very, very, very sensible.

So that's, that's the first thing.

Know what you're shooting after.

The second thing I would say is what are those anchors in our lives to keep us connected to reality and what it is that we're ultimately here for?

So I'm talking family dinners, I'm talking tradition.

I'm talking, yes, some Sabbath, right?

Taking time off, sleeping regularly, taking care of your body, giving generously, like we're big givers and give, give generously.

We always have.

That is a rhythm that we consistently do.

We want to go above and beyond and and be cheerful givers to our local church, to charities, to nonprofits, to missionaries we believe in.

So those are the anchors that I think we put in place to keep us in a godly frame with regarding to pursuing things.

Because you're totally right.

You can just spin the wheels.

Now, again, if you're spinning the wheels because you love the process, that's different than spinning the wheels because you're insecure and you need external validation.

I have buddies that yeah, like I have buddies that lift weights because they genuinely love what it does to them.

They find it interesting.

They like sculpting their body.

It's just like, they just love the process.

They got other friends.

They're like, they're insecure, they have body dysmorphia, they're getting on drugs and they're like, like they're, they're, they're just regulated emotionally and it's, and it's cope, like it's actually copium, right?

And so that's, that's that it factor you're talking about.

And to me, B, how we mitigate that is 1 why, why are we doing it?

2, how those anchors?

And then three, are you OK with where you are right now?

The contentment that we're supposed to have in Christ Jesus?

And those are just some of the ways that I think about it.

And so for me, they are like, what are you aiming for?

I have a very specific thing I'm aiming for.

I don't think it's crazy.

And then on the other side, like I enjoy some of the stuff I do, but I don't, I don't, I don't think that like I'm defined by my external metrics, especially on YouTube.

You know this, Melissa, we have peak months and then it's like, and if I'm validated by my numbers and my external metrics or how many people say something positive or negative about me, like, oh man, that is an awful way to live your life.

So those are just some of the things.

I guess you pointed that out.

I'm I'm thinking off the top.

But I have one more thing for you that I think might be helpful to kind of tie it in a bow.

But OK, so you and I were talking recently that and I was, we were trying to get this scheduled and I was like, yeah, I'm actually going through like a season of, I would say burnout, but I like it.

It's like because it's like a you write a book.

And my experience was we hit the ground running.

It was boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Like back-to-back.

Marketing was supposed to be over in like March.

It kept going through July, which is good, but it's a lot.

And for me, I really, really like the topic.

But we're talking about like an ick factor with it.

You have to sell a book, right?

I like the topic, but you write a book to help people, right?

You want them to to read it.

You want them to come with it.

But then you've then there's this.

Here's the IC part of the capitalism, right?

Where it's a business.

It has to run in a certain way that I don't like.

And there's an element of of it, I guess that I'm just like, OK, I'm kind of burned out.

I need to rest.

I need to to relax and get my mind off of it.

And it there's something very healthy that's come from that where I don't.

I, I know this sounds weird, maybe curt, but I kind of don't care as much.

And I like that.

Yeah.

Like, I don't care if I can't do what I say no.

And I don't even feel guilty, Right.

There is an element of perspective, I guess, that I've had being ambitious, writing a book and all of this and.

I, I, the, the thread that, of you know, the common thread, I think that I'm, I'm getting out here with this whole thing is, is how do you sideline burnout, right?

Like you're wanting to be ambitious.

You, you need to, you know, you need to do this right?

Like you need to bring it forth.

You need to give your best.

And I did and I do.

And now I'm resting, I'm in a place of rest where and I, I'm enjoying it.

But what do you say to somebody that needs to hustle, right?

They need, they need to do the work, they need to do the job.

And when they are in a season of burnout, what to do so that you don't become, I want to say hard, hard hearted about it anymore.

I'm not saying that I'm there at all, but that's what I think I'm saying is that I knew when I needed to stop and and just relax for a little bit and say no a lot more.

But what would you say to somebody that you know, they want to have the ambition, they want to do it in a godly way, but what does ungodly burnout look like in that regard?

Yeah.

And that's just a good, OK.

So I'm fortunate.

I'm so fortunate in that, in that like I have a baby coming like there is no right.

Like there is no like burnout like like, hey, like mid-october.

I'm not, I'm even nervous about like early October, like travel stuff and books.

Like I'm like, oh man, we're really kind of cutting in close.

But I have had kids and I've walked through the process And so I'm fortunate in that like I understand I can't do the maintain this pace indefinitely, right?

I think that I'm fortunate in that regard.

I have an external human, like an external factor human that I just can't spin my wheels.

And I think maybe maybe that's the Lord, like maybe God's timing and all of this because we weren't planning to have another kid, but maybe God's timing, the book date was set and it just, it just kind of worked out.

So I'm fortunate in that sense.

I think what you're getting at, Melissa, is the principle we see in Scripture, Leviticus 25, Exodus 23, where it it talks about like God is instructing the Israelites to let the land rest, right, Let the land rest.

And that is the that is that, that, that that rhythm and that Sabbath aspect that I think people do need, especially folks that that are hard runners, creative, a multi talented.

Your book was very impactful.

Well, it was heady for you, but it was impactful for the people that needed it.

Like my wife is going through it right now.

She's about halfway done and she loves it, right.

And so like, yeah, you're, you're, you're doing good work.

And when you're doing good work, there is a pouring out that happens, right?

There's a, there's a, the Lord is the Lord pours us out as like a offering for the, for the benefit of other people.

And that is, that is difficult.

Like that's again, it's this idea that like all of this is easy.

Like none of this is easy.

And anyone that's ever tried to build anything, a YouTube channel, release a book knows it like this stuff is not easy, right?

So when you're, when you're poured out and then you're like, OK, now I need to recalibrate and now I need to refocus and now I need to rest.

I think that is a good thing.

The way I tend to do it, the way that works for me is I, I do regular rhythms of that meaning that I, I sleep 8 to 9 hours a day, I take naps, I take days off.

I, I have time that's earmarked just for my family.

I have time to earmark for myself daily.

And so for me, I think I've been fortunate in like I have a lot of flexibility and it's those daily non negotiables, daily systems that have thus far.

Again, I don't want to, I don't want to speak out of term, but thus far have prevented burnout for me right now, right, like right now I'm at this way now again, I got AI got a month of fairly intense travel where I go out Saturday to Minneapolis, come back, do an event Tuesday, leave Wednesday for Nashville, comeback, go to Branson, MO, comeback, go to Dallas, TX, come back, go to San Antonio, come back, go to North Carolina.

So I have like the next 4 weeks are really hard.

And so I'm mentally gauging myself, but I'm also like, OK, rhythms, daily things, exercise, sunlight, touch grass that I got a Sprint, right?

I got a Sprint.

Now I'm sure I'll be on the other side of that.

Like when this is all done and and mid-october rolls around, I'll probably maybe I'll feel like you where I'm like, I'm cooked, like I don't want to do anything else.

I don't want to speak anywhere else.

And I'll just rest and I'll enjoy being a, you know, a new, a new dad with a new kid and a new, you know, a whole new season of life that's about to hit us.

So to answer your question shortly, I think we prevent burnout by making rest a part of our rhythm.

And that looks like sleep, exercise, sunlight, time with the family, naps.

Those are the things that I'm doing right now.

And if you prioritize those things, I think that's a way to mitigate it in a busy season.

If you're not prioritizing those things, it's that what is that Abraham Lincoln quote?

I think I don't know if I have it in the book, right?

If I had five hours to cut down a tree, I'd spend the first three hours sharpening my axe, right?

Are we sharpening our axe?

And like, you're about to go do this crazy thing of putting out a book that's going to change people's lives.

But are you doing that in a way that you're first sharpening your axe?

Your mind is sharp, you're rested, you're refreshed, you you're studied, you have time with the family.

And then the thing that's being put out is from a place of overflow and not from a drought.

It's not from a I'm dry and I'm trying to force this thing, but versus I'm doing this from a place of overflow.

And so I could, I could take all the negative that comes along with this.

I could take the positive that comes along with this, because none of that ultimately defines me and defines you and defines what we're doing.

Yeah, that was that.

I like the way you worded that because I know exactly how that feels when you're in a drought and you're like, right, But then if it's overflowing, you can't shut up about it, you know?

That's it.

Yeah.

And you were like that with your book.

Like when you came and we sat and for a number of hours, you were just like, man, it was just, it was just flowing out of you.

I'm probably like that in this conversation where you're asking me very simple questions and I'm just like, right, It's.

But when something is.

Talk about it.

Yeah, when something's from an overflow, and I think by the way, punchline that is, that is the overflow.

The overflow is the premise of godly ambition and godly stewardship.

Don't do anything.

Don't how to fake like an expert at something that you're not like I'm not Wes Huff.

I don't talk about manuscripts.

Like I'm not Melissa Daughtery.

I don't position myself as an expert of, of, of new age and new thought.

I go to the experts.

So like, if I want to talk about new age, new thought and like the cancerous implications, the prosperity gospel and, and all the I'm going to go to Melissa.

I'm going to let someone, this is your wheelhouse.

I'm going to let you cook on that.

I'm going to let Wes cook on manuscripts.

And that is another way to kind of protect yourself from like, I'm, I, I people are like, do you have imposter syndrome?

And I'm like, no, because I don't talk about stuff that I'm an imposter wrong.

Like I talk about what I know.

And a lot of that is just like my life and, and, and my scars and saying how can I compress that for people and make it So what took me 20 years?

Maybe I'll take them two, two to five years.

Dude, preacher Ruslan over here and pastor syndrome is so I'm so glad you brought that up.

That is such a big a big issue.

I think the workaholics need to hear this, right?

Like everything that you're saying.

And then I think what it comes down to as identity is just knowing who you are.

If you know who you are in Christ, all of this, I think, just falls into place because if he's at the center, yeah, all of this makes sense.

But yeah, I know this is good.

I'm.

Let me let me ask you a question.

On imposter syndrome.

I did that.

I maybe, maybe I will.

Let me ask you a question about let me ask you this.

I get a lot of Flack in that I I guess don't go as hard on the prosperity gospel, right Against the prosperity gospel, though, I think I've been fairly clear that I think it's unhelpful.

What do?

You mean by that?

What they want from you, I think they want more discernment ministry stuff where I'm calling out the Joel Osteen's and I'm calling out the Kenneth Copeland's and I'm called right.

I think I think more that that I think they want some of that.

And so, but here's my thought and I and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I think if we don't provide people a biblical alternative for prosperity and success, cause and effect universe, live below your means, become useful, develop some some skills that the market deems valuable, save give cheerfully.

If we don't provide a framework that's a biblical framework.

I think that is how the prosperity gospel continues sprouting up and that it and, or that is how people slide into apathy and disillusionment.

And so I, I'll be curious to hear your thoughts, like in this conversation, like I'm really trying to give people a biblical framework because that is what that is what I come from, right?

Like I've never been like a name, a claimant, blab it, grab it.

I'm just going to think it and it's just going to happen type of approach.

But I think like when we don't provide alternatives, that is when these false teachings spread out, when we don't, when we don't pull the weeds and plant gardens, there's just going to be more weeds.

There's going to be more wild stuff that, that, that, that, that sprouts up.

That's unhelpful, right?

And so like that, that's, that's my, my heart in like talking about some of this stuff, which is very unpopular to talk about, talk about money, talk about success, talk about finances.

It's so it's so it's so.

They're going to come for you.

Yeah, it's so ich, right.

But I think there's a strong dislike.

This is, I feel like I put a line in the sand where like, I am not a prosperity gospel guy, but let's not pretend why the prosperity gospel is so pervasive in so many of these situations, situations especially folks coming from poverty, especially developing nations.

Like this stuff is pervasive for a reason.

And it's in my opinion, because there isn't a lot of great biblical teaching on this sort of stuff.

I think that there's a a line to draw from how to be successful biblically and responsible with it.

But OK, so people give you a hard time because you don't cover the prosperity gospel like how they would like clarify that for me.

I'm kind of hung up on that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think like, my heart is like, hey, it's that, it's that age-old saying of like, you know, when someone's learning, when someone's working at A, at A, at a bank, the way they learn what real money is versus counterfeit money is that you spend more time learning and feeling the touch of real money instead of just trying to touch and, and, and study every single counterfeit, right.

And so I think it's, and both like I think we need to know when there's a counterfeit bill in front of us, but I think also like handling biblical truth oftentimes mitigates when the false counterfeit comes, right?

Pointing people towards the biblical and towards the thing we should be known by, we should be doing.

I think is a, is a, is a way that I prefer to mitigate it.

Now again, obviously I'm friendly with you.

I'm friendly with Mike Winger.

I highlight a lot of the stuff you guys talk about.

So I think there is a time and a place to call out the counterfeit.

But I say, well, shouldn't we be pointing people to the real, the authentic, the real thing as well?

And I think when we don't, then people are more likely to succumb to the counterfeits.

Why don't you do both?

I do because.

You're OK.

Yeah, because that's that's the only thing I could think of.

I guess that's where I'm kind of, you know, I'm like, well, where have you not like where have you shown support, I suppose, for prosperity preachers, which you haven't, you know.

So doing both, I think goes hand in hand because ultimately here's here's where you find yourself in my opinion, you are writing a book about the poverty gospel in essence, right?

Where, and I've said this before, I've actually said the opposite.

And this is, this is what prosperity preachers will claim.

They'll say, well, I mean, it's, it's the gospel of prosperity and you are basically believing in a gospel of poverty.

They make that claim.

And I, I said, no, it the opposite of the prosperity gospel is not poverty gospel.

It's just the gospel, like it's against the gospel, right?

You're coming in and you're supplementing a healthy biblical teaching about, hey, you guys can be successful, there's nothing sinful about this, here's how to sideline yourself, yadda, yadda, yadda.

But maybe perhaps what they're saying is a missing element here.

So as you were talking, what I was thinking about is if I went to the doctor and say something was wrong with my body, right?

Like, do you ever listen to Mr.

Balin?

Like Mr.

Balin's medical mysteries?

No.

I love like true crime stuff and Mr.

Balin's like one of my favorite.

Anyway, it's it's like it's medical mysteries.

People go in and you tell stories about people who had these issues with their bodies and diseases.

And it's it's fascinating.

Anyway, the what comes to my mind, OK, a lot of these people will go into the doctor and they'll say, here are the symptoms.

Here's what's wrong with you, right?

They'll they'll, they'll tell you they can observe, hey, here's something that's off and here's the cure.

But I'm sorry, I don't have a diagnosis for you.

Move on now.

How much frustration would that bring to you if you took your wife or child to the doctor and he could observe that there was something off and he gave you a way to remedy it, but he didn't tell you what was wrong with you.

He didn't tell you what was wrong at all.

That's kind of the issue.

I yeah, like that would.

For me as a Christian, I find frustration when I come across people who I don't know if they're afraid.

I don't know if they are trying to be united.

I don't know.

Just tell me.

Tell me what garbage is right.

It's like they dance around it.

I don't like that personally.

I'm like, tell me you're, you're giving me the biblical teaching.

Fantastic.

I love that.

But what am I supposed to be using this against?

Like I, I like the clear linear understanding of here's what's here's the cure, but here's what's here's why you need the cure.

Like here's your diagnosis and here's why it's a cure.

And so for me, I find no issue at all with you specifically pointing out, in fact, I think that would be helpful if you took your book personal on if you took your book and you said here is why it's biblical, here's the disease though, here's why this is unbiblical and you counteract that.

I think that that would be immensely helpful in my opinion, because I think that people, if they don't have a grip on what the unbiblical looks like.

And this is what happened to me.

I, I didn't have a context for it.

So what?

That's biblical.

So that when I come across the unbiblical, that line, it was crossed.

It went straight over my head because I didn't have pastor's discipleship in my life that made that that direct linear connection.

I think that's what I would say.

And hopefully that makes sense.

But that's what I kept thinking of as, yeah, as you were talking, I'm like, I would hate to go to a doctor, a theologian.

It said, yeah, here, here's the biblical precedent for this teaching without telling me.

Oh, and by the way, speaking things into existence is unbiblical because of this or whatever, you know what I mean?

Yeah, absolutely.

You took my counterfeit money metaphor and you raised it with a doctor metaphor.

I appreciate you doing.

That you know who gave me that idea?

That was Natasha Crane.

She used that example as similar example in her book and I'm like way to raise the bar.

That is a good example so.

That's a good example.

Yeah, No, I like that.

I think, I think we'll make a carousel post on Instagram, I think inspired by that by just saying, hey, here's the false teaching about money and about prosperity, and here's the biblical teaching.

Like here's a, here's a on both extremes.

Like 1 extreme is the apathy punt it aspect and in other extremes like ambition is God and God's going to do just give you all your wildest dreams.

But if you just say a prayer and believe hard enough.

And it would really help people who are in the prosperity gospel 'cause they need to know here's the man.

Yeah, this is so good because the your audience, basically the people that need to hear this stuff are the people who are under these features, not me.

I agree.

Right.

Like, I agree that there.

I can clearly see Costy, Hen Riley.

We can clearly see, yes, there's a stewardship.

There's this is that that's your audience.

These are the people that need to hear this because they are the ones that are trying to better their life.

They're wanting to get a job, they're working, but they're giving all their money to sow a seed so that they, they believe that that's how they're going to get more money.

And you're saying, no, there's an actual better way.

And so that's your, your audience.

Like those are the people that really need to hear it.

And the supplemental teachings that you are saying fix that problem because it's biblical and it, it makes it so that they can, they have that hunger, right?

Like they I'm trying to find the words for it, but it's like what you were saying, Like it, it, it people have these gifts, these talents that the enemy steals.

OK.

And and uses it in the most unbiblical way, but makes it look biblical and it's just spiritual theft.

And so if there's a way to say, actually, yeah, there there is a biblical right, good holy way to do this, It's it's it's part of what our country's about.

There's other areas that you can go.

You don't need to go to this prosperity teacher.

And not only are you telling them logically and economically that this isn't right, but you're also telling them this is spiritually wrong.

So, yeah, but I would disagree.

I don't think that you're over here.

I'm not talking about them, but maybe I'll give you a little push and say, yeah, maybe you should kind of pin that one down because you're writing a book that's basically against the prosperity gospel and this poverty mindset that they have.

So yeah, for whatever it's worth.

No, that's actually really helpful.

Thank you.

Thank you for clarifying that, Melissa, you're, you're awesome.

You're the best.

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