Welcome back to Total Disclosure.

Everyone.

My name's Ty and I am the host of the show.

Total Disclosure is where we dig deep into the unknown, the unexplained, and the unbelievable and bring truth to focus.

Today, I'm super happy to be joined by two extraordinary guests who are doing something few I've dared to do.

They're bridging the gap between law enforcement and the unexplained.

Together, they've got nearly six decades of experience in policing.

Mary and Rob, who I've met at Contact in the Desert, is a retired Arizona officer with thirty four years of service from arson and narcotics investigations to crime prevention and forensic construction.

She has spent the last decade applying that same discipline to the study of UFOs, the paranormal and beyond.

Dave Rich, also a retired officer with the Arizona PD, twenty five years in the field, working everything from homicide and ganging investigations to school resource work.

He brings some of the meticulous eye for detail to this anomalous world of encounters.

The two co founded what is known as.

UAPPD, an organization creating a safe zone for officers and first responders to share their UFO paranormal encrypted encounters without stigma or the fear of retribution.

When it comes to their career.

Their emission is to bring professionalism, evidence based methods, and respect to investigations of the unknown.

Again, we're dealing with the most complex phenomena in ever, so again we have to be humble, we have to be open to things that we can't really quite explain.

In this conversation, we'll unpack how UAPPD is changing the culture around the unexplained phenomena and why it's time for law enforcement to play a leading role in uncovering the truth.

So with that, before we get into it, make sure to share and subscribe, and if you're listening to one of the great podcast platforms, please leave a rating and review.

Takes twenty seconds and it really helps to show get out to a broader audience.

We can't do this without you, and I truly, from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

So let's get into it.

Here are Mary Anne and Dave the U a p p D.

And I didn't have the thank you to the U A p p D.

H.

Well, Hello, I'm.

Gonna have to edit that little uh that little intro there right at the end.

But other than that, I'm super happy to have you here.

Guys.

Well, thank you, Thanks, we'd love to be here.

We appreciate it.

Yeah, Mary, Maryanne.

I met you at Contact in the Desert, and I remember, I remember, I think I had left my phone.

This might have been when we first had met, but I introduced.

Chris Bledsoe.

On his panel and then I left my phone on stage and then I jumped off stage and then ran out the door because I had a bunch of interviews I was conducting throughout those you know, four days, and uh, I think that's when I met you.

And I was instantly like, I got to have these people are on what they're doing is so cool.

You're friends with Mark D'Antonio, which is I mean, he's one of my favorite people on the planet.

So it seemed like it was inevitable.

Oh well, that was pretty funny, though I remembered you were in an absolute panic because you didn't have your phone and your whole life is on the phone.

Oh it was, It was.

It was so cute and you were just so awesome and it was great to be able to finally meet you and Mark's talked so much highly about me, talk so much about you and so highly.

I was real excited to get to meet you and talk to you.

For a little bit.

You were running around like a chicken with the head cut off, so and stuff.

So I was so happy to at least spend a few minutes with you talking about just everything that's going on.

Yeah, and yeah, I think one of the coolest parts about about conferences, conferences like that is that it I mean, yeah, you can go, you can go for the you know, the lectures, and you can go for the speakers if you want to hear certain somebody.

But I find that what they're really really good for is that networking of like minded individuals.

So it was really nice and and I'm really excited to get into it with uh Dave as well.

So, I mean, without further further delay, well let's jump right in.

Both of you spent decades.

In law enforcement, and you had careers built on truth, evidence and accountability.

We'll start.

You know, however, you guys want to start, you know, bounce off of each other, that's quite all right.

It's it's easier said than done.

We'll try not to tako over each other.

But what moment or experience made you step across that line into the unknown and into the world of UFOs and the unexplained.

Well, let me go ahead and start off again.

You've introduced me, and I thank you for that.

Mary Anne Rob thirty four years as a police officer here in Arizona.

The last twenty six years was with the Gilbert Police Department, where I met Dave.

We worked many years together, partnering up.

But as an officer, I've worked as you said, I was a narcotics officer, I was a crime prevention, an arson detective, and property crimes and of course, like we all start out as a police officer, patrol.

Now, patrol was.

Always my favorite.

I just love to be out there in my patrol car by myself, just you know, cruising around taking calls.

That was always my favorite.

But also I had hobbies.

Of course, I love to fish, love to hunt, especially here in Arizona.

But one of the organizations that Dave and I were both involved in for probably close to ten years was an organization called moufon, which is the Mutual UFO Network.

And excuse me, we were out here in.

The Phoenix area and we also became field investigators, and that was kind of an interesting.

Position through Moufon, you know, being cops ourselves.

It was kind of nice doing these investigations because we knew how to interview.

Now we know.

How to interrogate, but we can't interrogate these folks, but we know body language, we know what to look for.

And one of the things we did for.

Moufon is when we had the boot camp for about six years, Phoenix did a boot camp, a Fueld Investigator boot camp, and our training, what we taught everybody was the advanced interview techniques.

So that's what you know, that's what we did with these new guys that wanted to become field investigators or people that were already field investigators that wanted to just brush up on their techniques.

So we're doing that.

And I was at a meeting one of the move On meetings in Phoenix, oh gosh, probably mid twenty twenty two, so about three years ago or so, and the topic was disclosure and that military started to come forward and talking which the disclosure.

They're trying to, you know, talk to about my own personal They'll never be disclosure.

That's that's just me.

So after the meeting was over, I'm thinking, I'm talking to a good friend of mine, Olejandro Rojas, and we're like.

Wait a minute.

You got the military talking, You've.

Got airline pilots.

They're starting to talk, and then disclosure disclosure thing comes out, and I'm thinking, Wow, we're police officers, we're first responders.

We're part of that whole grouping of cops, firefighters.

You know, nursing em tis all that.

Why aren't we talking.

There's over eight hundred thousand law enforcement officers just in this country alone, and.

Those are all trained observer, at least to a degree, all trained professional observers.

That in my opinion, again, I'm not saying like a cop or someone in the military, you know, their sighting is more credible than a citizen's, but you're also trained to see things that others just will miss.

Exactly exactly.

That's how I've all seen.

You know, there's cops, like I said, there's eight hundred thousand, and they're working day, they're working night.

They're out there like I always love to be on patrol.

I'm out there under the big open sky and there are cops there.

You know they're seeing things.

But again, why aren't they talking?

So that evening I gave Dave a call and I told him about the meeting, and I told him about what Alejandro and I spoke about.

And I says, dude, why aren't they talking?

Why aren't cops talking about this stuff?

And all you've had to say was I'll tell you exactly why they're not talking.

And then he proceeded to tell me why.

And I'm going to let him take over from here.

Oh what a what A what a swing?

I love it.

So just to go a little bit back to my history and how I got involved twenty five years as a police officer.

I started in patrol like everybody else, and then I went to gangs.

I worked a gang unit for a while, and then I went to homicide and sex crime, so I worked homicide, sex crimes, child crimes.

Then I ended up over in our gang unit but specializing in narcotics, got involved in a DEA task force, and then I ended up back as an SRO to finish off my career just kind of working with alien life forms, which were high school students.

But when up until it's ironic because up until twenty seventeen, I would be considered what was a hardcore skeptic.

I did not believe ghosts exist.

I didn't believe UFOs exist.

I didn't believe Bigfoot existed.

I thought it was all just misidentifications.

Something, you know, somebody saw something that they shouldn't, or it was military craft or something like that.

But then in twenty seventeen, I had an experience while I was working, and this is the story that I went to tell Marianne about.

Was when I was working as a school resource officer at one of the schools, we received a nine to one one call from the front desk of the school.

Call sounded like a woman that said I'm scared.

Dispatcher says you're scared.

It says no, and then you hear the phone drop on the countertop.

So they dispatch two officers to it.

They go to it, make entry with a knoxbox key.

They don't find anybody inside there.

They find the phone laying on the counter.

They pick it up and talk to the dispatcher was still online trying to get the person to pick up the phone.

They do a search.

When they go walking into the nurses office, something that neither of them could see sclved past them and out They run out of the nurse's office.

They don't see anything there but something physically.

So yeah, So you're saying like when you got there, when when you guys got there the phone was was there and it would it was still patched through to dispatch.

It had never hung up.

And then something that you guys can't see walks and pushes past you.

Well, I wasn't there.

It was two patrol Oh that's what I meant.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

Somebody may not see pushed past them out of the nurse's office.

Wow.

So the way I get involved is I show that night happened to be prom So I show up as it's a Saturday.

There was nobody at the school.

The principal looks at me and goes, hey, did you hear about the nine one one call?

It the school?

And I'm like, no, why would there be a nine one one call?

This was nobody there.

He's like, you need to call dispatch.

So I called this batch.

Hey was there nine one one call at my school?

Dispatcher starts laughing and says, hey, you need to talk to this officer.

Like why won't anybody give me an answer?

So I call this officer and I say hey.

I actually sent him a text.

I said hey, did you end up at my school today?

And his response was, dude, your school is blank haunted using the half word.

And at this point I'm looking at this again, remember hardcore skeptic at this time looking at the phone going right.

So I call him.

He proceeds to tell me what happened, and I'm like, er, so I don't think much of it.

Go through the prom Monday morning shows up.

My sergeant looks at me and says, hey, you need to investigate this nine one one call, and I'm like, why is it?

Well, it's misuse of nine one one.

Part of them were thinking like, is there somebody that has found a way to compromise the nine on one system.

We need to look into it.

So I do a full blown investigation.

I pulled the nine on one tape, I pulled the security footage from the front desk of the school.

I start talking to people.

I start I get a hold of the phone, the people at the school district that handle the phones.

I run down every possible lead I can.

I checked, could it have come from a classroom routed through the front desk?

No, because in the nine one one screen.

It will literally tell you what classroom it came from.

This clearly said reception B phone, which was the second phone the one in question.

Plus it doesn't the dispatcher also then says that also doesn't explain how it was off the hook when the officer got there and picked up and had a conversation with dispatch.

So we ran down every possible lead I checked.

Could somebody tap into the phone line old school like literally break open the phone box and tap in.

No, still doesn't explain how the phone is off the hook.

Right, run down everything, I can't figure it out.

So I get the security footage.

That phone is almost dead center of the screen.

Now it's detailed enough to see all around it and see if there's somebody standing at it.

It's not detailed enough to see the phone itself because it's kind of under this little ledge.

It's about eBay, but you can see if there's somebody on that phone, you can see them.

You would, yeah, you would see like the idea, would you see them outline of them or would you would you see them?

Because it was right before noon, so it was light in the room, not fully lit, but lit enough that if somebody was standing there.

You can see them.

So I take it back all the way to six in the morning, even though the call came in just before noon, and I watch.

At about seven o'clock.

One of the security guards comes in through the back door, doesn't go anywhere near the phone, grab some paper to make a sign for restrooms because they have football going on, like a little league football game out at the sports field.

So she leaves.

So there's three sets of motion detecting lights right there at that desk.

There's one in front of it, one directly over it, and one behind it.

When the security guard came in, the ones in front of it clicked on.

After twenty minutes, they click off.

I keep watching forward.

At about twenty after ten, the lights over the desk turn on.

There's nothing there.

I can't if anybody was there, they would have turned on the lights either in front of the desk or behind the desk, but neither of those turned on, just the ones over the desk.

After twenty minutes, the lights click on.

At the time that that nine one one call comes in, there's nobody at that phone.

None of the lights click on.

There's nothing.

Fourteen minutes after that, I watched the patrol officers walk in on the bottom of the screen through the front door.

I see one walk right over to the desk, pick up the phone.

I see him have the conversation, and then they hang up, and then they proceed to search.

When they walked into the room, you saw the first set of lights click on.

When he got to the desk.

You saw the ones over the desk click on.

When they start searching around, then the ones behind the desk click on.

So there is not a doubt in my mind that there was nobody at that phone when that phone call came in the office is not in screen though, So you see them go into a room at the bottom, and you see them both run out like a fraction of a second later.

Hum in the in the tape, do you see the phone move at all.

It's not detailed enough to see this to see the Actually, oh, that's right, that's right.

So, because I was gonna say, you know, assuming that they walked in and the phone was like off the hook, that does that make sense?

Would the phone have been off the hook?

So fifteen seconds, Jesus, that's that out.

I took the phone off the hook and said, okay, maybe because again remember, hardcore skeptic, there is a logical explanation to this.

So one of the things was the phone fell off the hook probably Friday when the secretary left, and it's just been laying on the counter all weekend, you know either.

So I'm like, okay, let's take the phone off the hook and let's see does it stay as an open line.

Doesn't really explain how nine one one got called, but let's see if if it's still it stays an active line.

After fifteen seconds, it cuts out there it is no longer an active line.

I tried pushing buttons, I tried doing all sorts of stuff.

The phone goes completely dead on that line after fifteen seconds of being left off the.

Lock of inactivity.

Right, wow, So I mean the story?

Oh oh oh, we're not even done yet.

Oh no, we're not.

Yeah, trust me.

Oh okay, hardcore skeptic.

So I am running down every possible lead.

I cannot even them up with any other leads we checked.

Was it a computer that somebody could have patched into the line from a different location, Well, it doesn't explain how the phone got off the hook and the open line got there.

And keep in mind, this is twenty seventeen.

So this is before AI or chant, GBT, any of those things.

None of that existed yet, right, I run down every possible lead.

So I take the audio recording, I send it off to be analyzed because I'm like, maybe there's something.

Maybe it's like a completely fake voice and it's not real at all, and it's all computer generated somehow.

I was gonna say, so, like, you know, because for instance, I work for a security company and it seems someone has hacked.

But this is also twenty twenty five we're talking about, so yeah, and it was, and it was a it's our system is a VoIP, so like, someone has the ability to call out as our company, but they don't say anything, and the lines like dead and we can't figure out who it is.

We've been trying to shut it down.

Did you look into any possibilities like that where someone could be jacking the phone number itself to mask the call.

Yeah, and on top of that that, we did look into that.

But on top of that, it still doesn't explain how the phone is off the hook with an open line to nine one one.

Right, So this is oh, yeah.

We checked everything.

I was one hundred percent convinced I am going to find the solution to this.

I run down everything.

We finally get to the point where we get the results back from the nine one one call the guy who did the I don't know what kind of technology he used to check it, but we were basically checking to see is it a completely computer generated voice?

Is it a human voice recording of a human voice?

What could this possibly be?

He tells me two things.

He's like, First, you need to know it's not a human voice.

So my instinct was, oh, it's a computer voice.

He's like no, He's like, I don't know what this is.

More importantly, you know, it's not saying I'm scared.

And I was like, what, because up until this point we thought it was it sounds like a voice clear as day.

Says what we thought was I'm scared.

Dispatcher says, what was that?

And then it responds with I'm scared.

Dispatcher says, you're scared, and then it says no, and then you hear the phone drop on the counter.

The guy tells me it's not saying I'm scared.

What it actually says is I scare.

And so when the dispatcher said, you're scared it, responded.

With no, obviously not.

Yeah.

So I continue my investigation and I'm like, Okay, this is really messed up again.

Hardcore skeptic Dave is going to find the answer.

I don't know what it is, but we're gonna find the answer.

So I go to the nurse's office because I realized, well, you know what, this supposed thing that ryan into them must have been in the nurse's office because that's where they encountered it.

So I walk into the nurse's office.

Sure enough, the nurse happens to be the wife of a sheriff's deputy and I've known her for six years at this point.

So I walk in, very friendly, very outgoing personality.

I'm talking to her about, Hey, did you hear about this phone call?

No?

I didn't hear about it.

I kind of start telling her a little bit about it, and she clams up.

She's like, I don't know anything about that, Like complete change of personality.

And you know, at this point, i'd been a cop for sixteen years, and I'm like, I can tell when somebody's hiding something.

So I'm like, something's up.

So I kind of leave.

I come back about it two three hours later, and everything is fine.

She's friendly, happy until I bring up the phone message and the phone call, and then she clams back up.

So I'm like, okay, now I know there's something.

So I leave and my mind is racing, like is it Maybe she's got kids, maybe one of them screwing around and got in the office.

But how are they not on the film?

How are they not on the cameras going on?

But I'm still thinking there's an answer here, So I wait three days.

I go back to her office and she's again back to her normal self, friendly, outgoing until I bring up this phone call and she takes her pen and slams her pen on the counter and says, fine, I'll tell you.

I'm like, tell me what.

She then proceeds to tell me that her entire life, she has been followed by a ghost or some sort of apparition at her house that will and she described this type of stuff, and we have confirmed it with her husband and her son, who are both Shaff's deputies.

Now they have things have like they hear footsteps upstairs where they know there's nobody there, doors slamming, their dog will bark at nothing in the corner she has seen things run past.

Her husband has seen things run past.

Looked almost like a little girl running past down the hallway.

She tells me all this stuff, and I'm looking at her and I'm like at this, I'm like, I can't figure out what this is.

Now, I got somebody that I trust.

It's telling me a story that I'm finding unbelievable.

But I keep getting back to why can I not explain how this phone call it?

So she then proceeds to tell me that When I ask her, why didn't you tell me this before, She's like, because three weeks ago, everything at the house stopped.

Everything was peaceful.

And I'm like, well, then, why did you tell me now?

She's because last night everything started at the house again.

I end up going back and checking that nine to one one call that we got was the third nine to one one call from the front desk of that school, but it was the only one that had a voice, and those nine to one one calls started three weeks before, so everything lined up.

So again, ty I went from a hardcore skeptic to I don't know if it was a ghost.

I don't know what the heck it was.

Maybe it's just technology we don't understand yet, but I've transitioned from being that hardcore skeptic to Okay, I'm willing to be open to stuff a little bit here.

Yeah.

So then when I ended up meeting I went to a different school, and that was when I started meeting up with people from Moufon and that's when they asked us to design this class for the lesson plan and stuff like that, for investigation and stuff like that.

And one of the things that I loved is the same techniques that I used during that investigation to try and figure out that ghost story or whatever it was, was the same techniques that they can use during their investigation.

And I'm being reminded by the person sitting next to me, I forgot probably the most important part of the story.

So about two weeks after I gather all this evidence and I'm working this case, I get a phone call and it's from a sergeant that's upstairs.

And anybody who's in law enforcement or even fire, any first responder knows what the term is a call from upstairs means.

So when I meet with this sergeant, I walk into his office.

He has two computer screens set up.

One of them is the voice analysis of the voice.

The other one is the security footage from the school.

He plays them both looks at me and says, you believe me, you expect me to believe this, And I look at him and I'm like, I really don't care what you believe.

This is what I found.

This is my investigation.

This is what I found.

He proceeded to accuse me of being a liar, of trying to pull something over on him, making up the whole thing, and basically ended it with telling me that you will not talk about this and if you do, there will be repercussions.

And so I ended up walking out of there, And first of all, let me tell you I was angry.

I'm going to clean my language up for you.

I was angry because I walked out of the room and this guy was a sergeant in name only, guy never did anything his entire career.

I got promoted, I had at this point, I had the Life Saving Award, Meritorious Conduct, Distinguished Service, Distinguished Team Citation three times, and like I had more ribbons on my class A uniform than I knew what to do with.

And this guy's accusing me of being a liar, accusing me of making this up.

And the problem was is he had all the leverage, and I knew it the moment I walked out of his office.

If I say anything, my career is probably over.

And so when mary Ann called me all those years later and says, why don't police officers talk about it?

I told her that whole story, and I said, the reason they don't talk about it is because we can't.

If we do, it's a threat to our career.

And it's not even and not I'm sorry to interject here, but coming from a family that that is you know, military law enforcement.

And I'm sure you guys can back us up, you know, brother in arms.

Right, So if this comes into the precinct right with you, it comes much much like this ghost with the nurse.

It seems to hitchhike itself onto everybody, right, And that means the precinct, your whole squadron is now quote unquote the laughing stalker.

At least that's what they're afraid of.

Yes, And that's one of the things because when Alejandro Rojas was talking to Marianne about it, when we were talking about why it happened, he had never heard anything like that.

We broke down all of the different stigmas that officers would face at that moment where they have to decide do I talk about what I experienced or do I not?

And Alejandro was like, you guys need to kind of talk about this because right now everybody thinks that police and law enforcement and first responders are all part of some global coo to hide the truth.

And I'm telling them that has nothing to do with it.

I'm being held like my career is being held over my head, saying if you keep talking, you're gonna better get used to asking people if they want fries with that.

Because you're not getting a job with another police agency.

You're done.

And because and it all stems from as an officer, you touched on it at the beginning.

We have two things going for us on any case, the evidence that we collect at that case and our credibility on we being the ones that collected it and we got the statements and we gathered all the stuff.

Those are the two things.

They were basically saying that my credibility was going to be shocked because they're going to basically say that I made this all up.

Therefore, my credibility is shocked and my effective this is an officer.

Is done absolutely And that's.

That's ultimately why we created UAPPD, because we started by just wanting to tell people, hey, just say you know, this isn't like police aren't hiding the truth about a or bigfoot or ghosts or something like that.

We're kind of in this catch twenty two where we can't talk about it, but it's not because we don't want to talk about it.

And so I sat there for six years with this story that I was not able to talk to about anyone because I said, still had six years left in my career.

So I just buried it and kept it hidden every time I got called upstairs wondering is this the day did somebody say something?

Did it end up causing problems until the day to paper, until the day that I retired, And then it became we can't stop me now, And so we created UAPPD for basically two reasons.

Really.

The first one is to provide a safe environment for first responders to talk about the stuff that they've seen.

We're not going to judge anybody.

We don't judge, we don't criticize, we don't make fun of, we don't do anything.

A lot of times we won't even do an investigation if they don't want us to do an investor.

We're just a sounding board more often than anything else, right, just to give them that safe environment where we can where they can talk, and then we ask them, can we take your stories because we do stage presentations, we did podcasts like yours, things like that where we're trying to get word of our organization out there to get more stories, and it's been relatively successful since we've got stories from all over.

When I say the world, I'm not kidding.

We got a story about last month of a UFO sighting in Australia that a police constable called us and did a zoom interview and gave us a video and stuff like that from Australia.

So we've got we know from a fact that we've got comments from South Africa, Ireland, Scotland, Mexico, Canada, New Zealand, so we know we're getting out there and we're getting stories from places outside of the country.

Again kind of going back to this whole notion that again, you know, not only is this not just something that's happened in the United States, to the officers in military here.

But again, you know, I think a big misconception is that everything happens in the United.

States, when that's very far from the truth.

This is a global.

This is a global issue, and I again I say issue with quotations because we don't really know what like the intent is.

Yeah, and that's why, like, like we're we're known for not pushing our own beliefs on people.

We don't want to.

We don't want I don't ever want an officer to come in here and listen, have him listen to me telling him what I believe.

Right, it doesn't matter what I believe.

It matters what they believe in what they saw, And so we give them an opportunity to talk, We give them an opportunity to get it off their chest in a safe environment.

We like to use it to kind of encourage other officers because ultimately, like my goal, ultimately, other than to help these first responders and ride that safe environment is I would love to be able to push that needle a little bit because again, twenty seventeen, I didn't believe in any of this stuff.

And now I've had a number of incidents during some of our investigations, some of our contacts, seeing some videos and stuff like that, and I'm willing to start taking things a little bit on faith.

I want proof like everybody else, but I'm also willing to go into it with a little bit of an open mind.

Right.

And one of the things that we noticed when we speak to officers who are officers that are stationed on a reservation versus officers that are not, the guys on the revs don't seem to have the same stigmas.

And it all comes down to one thing.

Their culture has a much more open belief on these topics than people not on the reservation.

So when I'm told one of the officers from the Healer River Reservation out here, when he was telling a story, I told him about what happened to me getting called up stairs, and he couldn't believe it because he did his entire career there, and he's like, we would never that would never happen to us, Like we would get called up and they'd be like, hey, what do you got and we tell him.

Then they'd be like, oh, good job, let's get this evidence logged in and everything like that.

But right, it's so much more, it's so much more accepted, Like I just had in part because of Marianne's uh, thank you for this.

By the way, I'd been wanting to chat with John Dover of the Navajo Nation for for quite a while, and by the time this episode comes out, I think it'll be three episodes back I had him on and again.

Yeah, the difference between you know, what you guys were up against is a little different than what he was up against because he was charged with, you know, being a police officer, but also being a police officer that you know, uh, some days you're gonna have to investigate the the unknown, but the unknown is part of their culture.

So it's just the other day at the office.

And John is real good friends with us, both John and stan Stan Milford.

Yep, we actually talk with them a lot.

They actually help us out with a lot of stuff that happens on the res just helping us with information, helping us with like contacts, stuff like that.

So it's great having them as a sounding board or even just a resource.

Yeah, we've had a couple of things happened that we've been like, like we've been sitting in Marianne's living room with John going, hey man, this is what we got and he's been like, I can tell you exactly what that is, and then we break it all down and we talk about it and it's an amazing resource.

Like it's amazing how many interesting people we have come to meet since we've started this, And like I said, I'm proud of this.

Heck of the fact that since we've started this about two years ago, we have over eighty stories from first responders all over the world who had things happen, who trusted us enough to come and talk to us, knowing that we're not gonna judge, we're not gonna make fun of, we're not going to criticize, and we will only use stories when that officer says, yes, I'm okay with you using it.

We've had officers all across the board.

Some have been like, I just need to tell you this, but I can't get it out.

I can't have my name out there, I can't let anyone know, and we're like, fine, tell us that we're gonna get your help, we're gonna listen to the story, give you that place to vent, and then it just goes in a box and we never use it.

We've had other guys that have been like, yeah, you can use my face, you can.

You need me to come on and talk, I'll talk.

And we've had everything in between.

We've been some officers like there's one that I know of that recently got promoted to sergeant.

He gave us a story and he's like, I cannot have my face out there.

I just got promoted.

So he's like, I have no problem with you using the story, but you can't use my name.

So we take it even further.

We don't use his name, and we don't use the agency that he is with.

We just refer to it as an agency in Arizona, right, because, again, our credibility, just like their credibility, is paramount.

We want we want these first responders to trust us.

We want people to trust us because we're talking about the truth, and that's kind kind of one of the things we touch on.

I'm sorry I'm talking so much, but I'm really kind of passionate about this.

Is the most frustrating thing about this entire scenario is we're talking about people first or firefighters, police officers, corrections, EMTs, park rangers all across the board, who are trusted because of, like you said, their credibility, their ability to maintain their emotions in high stressful situations.

They're seeing stuff, they're telling the truth, and they're getting in trouble for it.

And that's the part that is the most frustrating because it's we call it in one of our sides, we call it the cost of the cost of being truthful?

Absolutely absolutely, So is it?

What?

What are Because now you said you're talking about the cases that you've collected from other officers, Uh, is there one that sticks out that you could talk about now?

And and kind of because I want to I want to hear how how you guys.

I want to maybe go through how you guys take a case from an officer and then what do you do with it?

If you can, if you can talk about it, if it's you.

Can, we can talk.

We got so many stories.

We we have one the okay, I'm going to tell you about the Skinwalker case.

Well you have one, and then I'm going to have him do about five different stories and then an investigation that we did and come to find out it was on a reservation.

Let me talk a little bit about the skin Walker case.

We had an investigator with our agencies, Gilbert pad and this guy is the probably one of the most serious guys that I've ever He doesn't joke around.

He takes everything very very serious.

So he stopped for me in the hallway one day and he says, Hey, I know that you've been with Muffon and can I run something by you?

And I said sure.

He says, I was.

Driving up State Highway eighty nine between Flagstaff and Page.

Now this roadway, for the folks that don't know Arizona.

Flagstaff is northern Arizona, and State Route eighty nine goes further north to Page, Arizona, which is on the Utah border.

Now this roadway is on the Navajo reservation.

So he says, it's about ten o'clock at night.

He's driving down State eighty nine, State Route eighty nine.

It's a two lane road.

Yellow.

It's a yellow line right smack dab in the middle.

There is picture marts the the surface of Mars.

This is the Yeah, it looks like it is red.

It has it has rocks everywhere.

There are no trees, there are no houses, there is nothing, and it is black.

There's not even a street light.

So he's cruising down the road, probably going about eighty eighty five miles an hour.

There's nobody out there.

Is there like, is there like mountains in the back or is it eight planes or.

I would say five to ten miles.

Okay, So where he is at it is just small rock like you would just picture the the surface of Mars that kind of red and boulders and rock.

But there's no there's mountains way over on the sides where the familion cliffs are, and up toward what would that be the road that goes up the page.

That's all mountainous up there.

But there are no trees, there are no houses, there's no lights.

It is pitch black.

So as he scruised him by all of a sudden, he notices out of his provisional vision side vision that way, thank you, on his right hand side, that there is something that is right there by the road, pretty big, and it starts to cross the road in front of them, so it's going from the right to the left, right in front of him.

Well, he puts on the.

Brakes really really fast, and he slows all the way down, and this thing, this creature is on all fours now, even on all fours, he said, the back of it was probably at least four feet tall, and this thing is going across the roadway very slowly, right in front of him, and all it's stewing is it's looking right at his headlights as it's walking across.

Now, if there was a deer, a coyote, whatever, they would see the headlights and.

They take off.

This thing didn't.

It just took its to I'm walking from the right hand side of the car all the way to the left, got off to the shoulder and just went and did whatever it did.

So it freaked him out.

He's like, what in the world was that?

So he started he started to go again, but this time he started going slow because he wasn't sure kind of that area.

Yep, that's the up there at the Grand Canyon.

But he's starting to slow.

He's cruising up.

About two miles later, Rare, you go right there, that's exactly the area.

Right there is the turnoff to Tuba City, which is also on an alcohol reservation.

Just he's past that exit, he notices there's something now sitting in the middle of the road.

The double yellow there is something sitting in the middle, So he again slows way down.

He's like, what in the world is this thing?

As he's going past it this thing is now on its hind legs and it's just sitting there staring at the car.

And as the car went by, it sat there and it just watched.

His head moved with the car, and as the car approached, the head stayed right with the car.

And as the car went by, the head of this creature just followed the.

Car as it went through it went by.

Now, I asked the investigator, we can use Noah is his first name, We can use Noah.

But he said, this thing, the head of it, when it was just on a time leg sitting there, was over five feet tall because it was over his car.

So it's on its hind legs.

It's fine.

It's touched down like it's just sitting on like a dog or whatever.

It behind legs.

This thing was over the head was over five feet tall.

It was above his car, sedan car, and all it did was just it just kind of watched, never moved, never did anything.

Well, Noah goes being an investigator, Hey, what was that?

He wanted to turn around and go back and check it.

Out, because I mean, oh my god, Well, luckily this area, both shoulders on the roads are very very soft, and he knew ten o'clock at night.

He goes off the shoulder.

He gets stuck.

He'll never get out until he's he's already freaking out.

He goes, I'm getting to where there's light and there's people.

So he kept going.

He gets up the page, finds a grocery store of a convenience store.

Goes in.

The clerk in this convenience store, it's in a Navajo woman and she's being just so cheery with everybody.

You know, Hi, how are you?

What's going on?

And you could just tell she's very, very, very bubbly and outgoing.

So Noah grabs some drinks and some snacks, puts them out on the front on the counter, and.

She goes, hey, how are you?

Where you going?

Where are you coming from?

And he's talking and he goes, can I ask.

You a question?

She goes sure.

He goes, do you have any wolves or coyotes out here?

And she goes, well, there might be a coyote everywhere once, you know, maybe sporadically in some.

Areas, but there won't be any wolves.

We don't have the terrain for wolves.

And she goes, well.

He proceeds tell her what he saw as he was driving down the road and coming up to page, her demeanor went from very bubbly, very outgoing, to very serious.

It just turned just like that.

She got very serious.

She takes her his snacks, put him in a bag, shoves the bag into him, and says, you need.

To leave now.

She knows what she knows what it is.

So he's freaking out.

So he gets up, of course, gets the page, goes and does whatever he's going to do.

Well, you know, he goes, I have no idea what that was all about.

He goes.

I know that you probably would know something.

So here's my story.

Here's what's going on now.

I asked him, because he didn't of course, didn't have any.

Pictures or anything.

I says, would you be willing to meet with one of my sketch artists and take, you know, and draw a picture of what you saw?

Especially when this thing was sitting in the middle of the road.

So I go sure.

So I had him.

Now, for folks that don't know a sketch.

Artist, we use him in police departments like they're going to sketch bad guy.

They'll give him the features, eyes, nose, height, all this stuff, and the sketch chartist will actually draw.

Yeah, they'll take they'll take the witnesses testimony and create a kind of bring it to life if you will, like a like a storyboard exactly.

So I didn't.

Unfortunately, I don't have that picture with me right now, but sketch artist, I do have it.

I'd have to find it for you.

But if you could.

By the time Staires I'll get to that picture.

Doesn't say you could, I'll mark the spot.

So we got it.

So anyway, so he did that.

I see the picture now.

It looks cartoonish, it really does.

It is.

It is long, it has a wolf type face, it is elongated in its jaw, it had the big teeth and the eyes were just wild, and it's sitting on it on its hind legs.

So this is what he he this is what he saw.

And again, you know, I wasn't gonna laugh at him, because this is one guy that does not joke around.

Now.

I did talk to John Dover stan Mill for Junior, of course, like we were just talking about the Novajo rangers and I told him this story and I told him how what how the Navajo woman clerk reacted to the story, And he goes, yeah, Noah saw a skin walker and he you know, when he told the story to the clerk, she was afraid that that attachment of this skin walker, whatever it is, on Noah, would attach to her and she didn't want anything to do with it.

That's why she got serious.

She handed him his groceries and told him to get out of the store.

And so that was really an interesting one.

That's one of our first skinwalker cases that we got from an officer.

To be continued