[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Sexology, a podcast that untangles the science of sex and pleasure.

[SPEAKER_00]: And now, with this week's episode, your host, Clinical Psychologist, Dr.

Naseneen Moali.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hello there, you are listening to Episodes 400 and 62 of the Sexology podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Today we're going to talk about what happens when our heart and our sexuality don't speak the same language.

[SPEAKER_02]: Today's guest, Ali Massey, has spent over 40 years helping people reach that very divide.

[SPEAKER_02]: She calls it the heart sexuality split and whether you're a romantic who struggles with lust.

[SPEAKER_02]: or someone who's great at sex, but feels emotional, distant, chances are you've felt the suit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ali's a somatic therapist, sexologist, consolation work facilitator, and creator of the powerful method of personal geometry, a body-based approach to healing sexual trauma, complicity, and disconnection.

[SPEAKER_02]: In this episode we explore why our culture separates love and sex and how that shows up in the bedroom, how gendered expectations shape what we think we're allowed to feel, and how to map your personal relationship between heart and genitals to start integrating both.

[SPEAKER_02]: This episode is brought to you by Wifey, a bold, darkest-style series exploring how Wifey through real couples and real stories.

[SPEAKER_02]: No shame, no stereotype, just the honest, emotionally intelligent side of ethical, non-monarchy me.

[SPEAKER_02]: curious, watch now at Wifey that VMG.Studio or follow at Wifey updates on Instagram.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're craving more closeness with your partner, grab our free guy.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's 100 and one way is to keep your relationship hot, packed with creative, therapist-approved ideas you can try together tonight.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can find it download in the show notes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Sexology podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am so excited to welcome Ali Mezzay, a tour show.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ali, welcome to a show.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's fantastic to be here.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am also very excited about your approach around connection, sexuality, emotion, lots of exciting things.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, I'm eager to dive in and then you have this very interesting model and that model you talk about, the heart, sexuality split that you see in many of your clients.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can you show a little bit about this split with us with love to first of all I want to be clear what I mean by heart and what I mean by sexuality in this particular body map that I use a lot in my practice and I've also really watched throughout my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: But when I say heart in this case, I'm talking about the romantic heart, so I want to be really clear about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: It wouldn't be towards the planet or parent or child.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is specifically towards a partner, a potential partner.

[SPEAKER_01]: And sexuality can be as broad or specific as anybody wants to explore.

[SPEAKER_01]: For some people that specifically mapping their relationship to their genitals, for some people it's much more of a sense of their emergent identity, their creativity, and it can be anything in between.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I want to clarify that if we get into doing any mapping that it's wide open, [SPEAKER_01]: beautiful.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's dive in.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I really started working with this about a year and a half ago because the heart sexuality split has just been a theme of mine throughout my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: I remember very specifically when mine started to split when I was 16 years old.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hadn't been kissed yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: and he had kissed me and it was such a revelation for me and then he immediately said, I want to make love to you and I was very shocked by this because he was older.

[SPEAKER_01]: I had had no experience prior even though I was a lot taller than everybody else.

[SPEAKER_01]: I looked a lot older.

[SPEAKER_01]: But this was so shocking to me that somebody was taking it out of this context of sexuality being connected to knowing you and love and all the things I had never really been taught about the context of sharing sexuality.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I ended up going off to New York at 16 to try to model having no experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: I did not end up sleeping with this guy and ended up being in the studio 54 scene with man twice my age just thrown into basically a viper pit and just being seen and experienced and used as a sexual person without any regard or interest in who I was.

[SPEAKER_01]: and then after a summer of that going back to high school in my senior year and everybody else hadn't seen and experienced all the things that I had during those three months and so that split became even greater while I tried to be in a high school environment where people were having their sweetheart's which I at that point [SPEAKER_01]: was no longer really capable or fortunate enough to find.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this really set me up for many years of experiencing that also being a person who was just naturally always been very sexual, which I imagine many of not all of your listeners are, that I became more and more motivated.

[SPEAKER_01]: by trying to find sexual fulfillment, even while my heart was so hurt and so full of longing to have both.

[SPEAKER_01]: But as the years went on, it was harder and harder to find both together.

[SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, I had to make all kinds of decisions along the way, including who I could have one or both tried to have both with, and eventually, at times, just being celibate.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I could no longer tolerate having that split happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where I am today, feeling finally after years of a lot of healing, very aligned, and yet still challenged.

[SPEAKER_01]: How and when can I have that together, even if it's just for a single experience with somebody, or hopefully in a more enduring relationship?

[SPEAKER_02]: I thank you so much for talking about your history and how the evolution of this concept and this experience, what I'm curious about, so what this split look like, like meaning that you're, they're kind of like, as you said, like being sexually driven but not being able to emotionally connect or feeling turned off and emotionally connect, can you tell us more about how does it manifest itself?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I'll include what I've also seen in other people as well as experience to myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Instances like you really love somebody but you don't desire them.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't feel lust for them.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is a split or you really lust for somebody but you don't love them and perhaps don't even like them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or you really feel both for somebody but you are blocked in some way.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they may or may not feel connected for you, or at least possible to connect with somebody else, or you're with somebody, you're really connected, but they're not, and they love you, or they lust for you, but they don't feel the same together, or there's different times in our relationships.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to be really clear that this is a continuum.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you can easily be in a long-term relationship and at different times feel very lusty for a partner, but not feel a lot of love in any given instance of having sex, for example, or they can be really together, or sometimes you just want the recreation, or sometimes you just want the comfort.

[SPEAKER_01]: or your different times in your life where you're not looking for a co-parent or you're looking for fun or you've been really heartbroken.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's ways that you can just buy your behavior, how you communicate, how you don't communicate.

[SPEAKER_01]: will really give a lot of messages and experiences of how available you are to be the wholeness of how you're experiencing yourself in that other person or persons you're with.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a, does that answer your question?

[SPEAKER_01]: Cause there's a lot of different examples I can imagine and have heard and experienced myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's just such a prevalent experience of many, many of our clients.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've been in that spectrum and it's such a normal experience for many people, common experience, like I said, better way of putting at it, putting it.

[SPEAKER_02]: What I'm interested in, what comes up for me, Ale, is that I've seen lots of people being at the place of heart and love and not sex part.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I feel like this sexuality kind of part.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's, I've seen people feeling attracted, but kind of like have that love it will evolve.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what I see in many of my clients in long-term partnership, that when they are at the place of love, [SPEAKER_02]: Generating lost is really difficult.

[SPEAKER_02]: Why do you think people end up in that place of filling disconnected?

[SPEAKER_01]: So I love this and I hope we'll do a process because you can actually see in the body maps that we're going to do in my method personal geometry, if you would like to, you can actually see.

[SPEAKER_01]: how your internal body map is in relation to these two things and how one might be very close, one might be a far apart, one might be looking at a different thing or at a different angle.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there's so many ways, of course, that we've been socialized, religion can have a huge effect on this, education, gender, [SPEAKER_01]: trauma.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's not forget all the trauma that we can have where people can basically put away their sexuality or not be able to access it or share it, particularly if love is involved.

[SPEAKER_01]: Other people feel less afraid when love is involved, but I think there's so many ways that people just are, I mean, in the case of, for example, cisgender girls, [SPEAKER_01]: who are raised to want to, we look for love, we're taught that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we aren't necessarily supposed to look for sexual gratification.

[SPEAKER_01]: We certainly most of us weren't taught that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's just so many ways that that continues to be [SPEAKER_01]: indoctrinated into us because, in for one reason, pleasure really requires a degree of what some people would call selfishness.

[SPEAKER_01]: It requires, first of all, a lot of people aren't even connected or feel their bodies in any deep experience because they're busy being what people call up in their head or very focused externally or they're objectifying themselves as they've been objectified, so they're experiencing themselves from the outside, how they look, how they're being perceived, how they're performing, how they're being perceived, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how they're performing, how [SPEAKER_01]: which is very splitting in the first place.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's very hard to fill your own desire if you're busy worrying about how your ass looks.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know?

[SPEAKER_01]: So, I love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, that's one thing is, are we allowed?

[SPEAKER_01]: It regardless of gender to really experience ourselves from the inside.

[SPEAKER_01]: and to be in the vulnerability of receiving pleasure, which is inherently vulnerable because you're not busy being vigilant to make sure you're safe, hopefully you're experiencing enough safety in order to be able to actually be in the present moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: and feel whatever there is to feel, which may or may not bring up different emotions, it may bring up anger, sadness, feelings of awkwardness, or shyness, or realizing you don't really want to be there.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's so many ways that really having those things together in a more authentic way is just not what we're taught.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not what we're modeled.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're pretty much split.

[SPEAKER_01]: for since the millennia you know this gets into the Cartesian divide and how we've been taught that where our minds not our bodies and that bodies experiencing them are is pretty dangerous you know they die they get harmed you know they get molested they get injured and you know it's it's a constant [SPEAKER_01]: opportunity in my view sexuality to entice us and invite us and hopefully welcome us to really experience ourselves as bodies in ways that we're not exactly supported to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: I 100% agree with you in a way that many people feel that they're a broken because they [SPEAKER_02]: and wanting to have the connection, the sexual spark and they find themselves in the place of split.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they feel like they have to compromise my sexuality or betray my relational agreement.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we can see that it is such a common issue.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there are deep psychological patterns that they apply in that they say, like, [SPEAKER_02]: Like my partner now that we're together, I feel they are my mother, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like they're just caregiver, that's just not a sexy role.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or at times people say that the sex was great at the beginning because they were more at the sexuality part, especially for women, they were more under, kind of like self-focused part.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now that they are in a relational part, they focus on the kind of taking care of the partner at times they feel disconnected.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm kind of very curious about the mapping process.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can you walk us through it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and this is particularly interesting because if you map, I'm going to assume it's a relationship with a one person.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there are two elements.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to get into polyamory or other arrangements.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I ask somebody to map them in the partner, and by the way, when I say map, let me just say a moment about personal geometry what it is, because it is a method by which we can externalize our internal body maps.

[SPEAKER_01]: we know where the room we're sitting in, everything that's around us, how far it is, how close it is, what it means to us, what happens when somebody comes in and they stand at a particular angle.

[SPEAKER_01]: We ultimately are these animal bodies that are always scanning things and shifting our, our literally our stance.

[SPEAKER_01]: to anyone in everything, and it gets particularly rich and complex and really revelatory when we get into how those meanings of that geometry reflects our, for example, availability to relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if two people begin a relationship before let's say marriage or a commitment, their geometry is going to be very different, then as soon as marriage comes then all of a sudden we start mapping in our even more so our parental template.

[SPEAKER_01]: That relationship, that geometry, you could say, all of a sudden the positions that are out on the floor or on the table because we use either postits or objects on a table or you can use mats on the floor if I work with people in person.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they can actually stand on these positions.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if I ask them to place something for a post it or a mat for themselves and one for their partner, [SPEAKER_01]: You'll immediately see how they experience that relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: Does it feel close?

[SPEAKER_01]: Does it feel far away?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do they feel seen?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is the person that they've just mapped facing them?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is it blocking them?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, where is this pattern in their sense?

[SPEAKER_01]: They're felt sense of how they are relating with somebody.

[SPEAKER_01]: And obviously that changes from day to day.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it certainly changes as we become parents, for example, or as, you know, as we were just saying, getting married, then all of a sudden our own parents marriage can really start figuring in with how we even allow for space to have a lover because if you, if you suddenly, wow, this gets complicated.

[SPEAKER_01]: So often people will say, I'm so close to my parents, and if you ask them to map themselves in relation to a parent, they will place themselves side by side like this with their parent.

[SPEAKER_01]: which traditionally I shouldn't say traditionally can kind of classically is the position you would want your partner in is right next to you you're both next to each other you can turn for intimacy or you can move forward in in your lives together towards whatever goals you have together.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if you're like, oh, I'm, you know, if this is a boy or a man, for example, I'm so close to my mother, and he places his mother right next to him.

[SPEAKER_01]: If it's a heterosexual person on his left, for example, [SPEAKER_01]: his mother becomes in the position that a potential partner could be in.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I see this a lot for example with people who have trouble staying loyal, you know, in a sexual commitment because they can't afford to be loyal to someone else because in their body map, their mother has that position.

[SPEAKER_01]: and they have this emotional incested loyalty where they have to keep being the man of the house or the one who's there for his mother because the father didn't meet her needs for whatever reason.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that making sense?

[SPEAKER_01]: I know that's a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love it and I think it's very helpful and make sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like if you're doing it with a client or our listeners, when I kind of explore for themself, is that something that you draw like a geneogram, like on the paper, or is like how is the conversational things, how can people explore that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, what I would love to do if you're interested is actually ask people to take some posts and unfortunately I didn't bring some with me and you can place in this case one for me one for hard or you can do it with your partner.

[SPEAKER_01]: and one for sexuality.

[SPEAKER_01]: I only have two pieces of paper.

[SPEAKER_01]: For example, if you feel that you're very connected to your heart, but you're looking at it all the time, psychologically, energetically, like you're very concerned about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you've gone through a breakup.

[SPEAKER_01]: you may or may be in a breakup, you might feel like it's buried underneath you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now these, you could call this symbolic or metaphorical, but it really has an immediate felt sense just by my merging these papers, most of us as body beings can feel that this has a different meaning.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, this will be different for each individual.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you were to place things like this, this could mean [SPEAKER_01]: experience it or you don't want to get hurt.

[SPEAKER_01]: It could also mean that you feel like they're totally merged and you are an expression of your own heart.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then if you are like this and sexuality, for example, is five feet away.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is the kind of the example you gave at the beginning with your question.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's five feet away and its back is two.

[SPEAKER_01]: This configuration.

[SPEAKER_01]: this person can only see the heart.

[SPEAKER_01]: They can't necessarily see that their sexuality is, you know, five inches or five feet away looking off in the distance.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it'll pass love, you know, that they still feel longing for their missing or maybe it's a parent who died or maybe it's a the church or a religion that they feel their sexuality is kind of fixated on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it can't [SPEAKER_01]: So there's so many ways that you can see literally within seconds or minutes when you ask people to place these things and really engage the intelligence of their body, bodies know immediately where we are in relationship to pretty much anything if not everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that clearer?

[SPEAKER_02]: It is clear.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I afford the listeners that are just listening.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's two papers with arrows, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: That toward me and the heart and we're positioning it depending on where we experience it.

[SPEAKER_02]: where we would want it to be like, is it like, is there lots of space?

[SPEAKER_02]: What is the healthy place that you could have noticed that people are more having integration have that?

[SPEAKER_01]: So I want to emphasize that even if there might be some optimal positioning, [SPEAKER_01]: meaning that you can move forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing blocking you from moving forward and by the way, an arrow means your eye gaze, it's the direction you're facing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you have something smack in front of you, you can't take a step forward without bashing into it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that, and that is a lot, I've seen a lot of people, for example, map their ideal relationship this way.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it can also be like narcissism.

[SPEAKER_01]: It can show when a parent, if you place a parent right in front of you like that or your own child right in front of you, it can mean that's all you're looking at.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's smack in front of you.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can't really see anything else.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or if you're in the, [SPEAKER_01]: beginning throws of a relationship or there's co-dependency.

[SPEAKER_01]: People might place that kind of a configuration and other people might want to, again, be side by side.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they might want to be if this is me and a partner, just going to show that.

[SPEAKER_01]: They might want to be side by side, so they can easily turn towards each other, but they can move forward and they continue to [SPEAKER_01]: And when we get into, for example, I know you talk a lot about, and I love this, you talk a lot about desire disparity.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can really start to see too if somebody's always turned away kind of looking off towards their work or they're looking off towards, you know, potentially someone else.

[SPEAKER_01]: This can start to show some bases for why there might be that disparity, there's all kinds of ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I just also really want to mention that for some people in ideal relationship might be to have more distance, you know, you might want to have a few feet between you and your person.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you're somebody who wants to live in separate houses and that's what this means, or different countries, or you're more of an avoidant attachment style, or you're just somebody who's an introvert and needs lots and lots of space.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if you start seeing people mapping where you can tell by the configuration that they can't really see each other, or one person's behind and in a parental position, not so good as you mentioned earlier, people eventually unless they're into some kind of kink about that, don't want to sleep with their parent.

[SPEAKER_01]: or their child, and it tends to dead in sexual sexuality, shared sexuality.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you can really see how people are placing their experience of this other person.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that may be somebody they haven't met yet, you know, which is really interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: If somebody comes, which of course we hear often in our practices, no doubt.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really want a partner, and I don't know what's in the way.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love that kind of like a susman, and kind of [SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like holistic view of this kind of like where are some of the roadblocks where I want to be and what does it feel good for me and my relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: What I'm curious about part of the challenges even could be intergenerational trauma or it could be small tea and big tea trauma that many people have experienced and lost them.

[SPEAKER_02]: What is releasing of that would look like?

[SPEAKER_02]: Is that something that like because sometimes as you said like some sometimes are temperament some people are one more space some people sometimes we want to shut down as a way of self defense.

[SPEAKER_02]: What's your how do you help people to navigate that piece if there's been trauma and are you do me in specifically sexual trauma or any kind of.

[SPEAKER_01]: sexual trauma or even like yes again general intergeneration on trauma I think like people women who grew up in like patriarchal societies right it's all types of trauma that's been within the generation yes so I have facilitated family constellation work for many many years and I will bring in transgenerational trauma at times though it's also really important to see because we can have ideas about how those things affect us but when they actually are mapped [SPEAKER_01]: It may not be affecting us in the ways we might think or in the ways we have decided or realized you could say.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's one thing I want to mention is that this is going to really track, how is it really getting in our way that a grandparent, a grandmother had been raped or [SPEAKER_01]: that women were taught to be seen and not heard or the sexual trauma is in pretty much every generation in most lineages.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's face it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes what I'll do is we're using things like this and this brings in like IFS, you know, internal family systems that that we can do pull apart.

[SPEAKER_01]: For example, if me is is over-identifying with a grandmother who had been raped, for example, [SPEAKER_01]: that we can actually have two pieces that we separate and all of a sudden when you separate them and you have this is the me and this is the transgenerational trauma aspect and maybe you bring in another one that's for the personal trauma.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm owning my own trauma, I've experienced that, and this is my grandmother's trauma that I've been carrying that affected how she brought up my mother to always be terrified of men or hate men or she, I've, you know, rebounded in a way to overcompensate and I've just been sexually all over the place because of my, my mother being so shut down or these kinds of things, you can ask people to bring in these, [SPEAKER_01]: these influential other elements and really see that actually I am really connected to my own heart and my own sexuality.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the influence of my grandmother that isn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: That part that I have held within myself and then we do a process in order to [SPEAKER_01]: make peace with that, and allow that geometry to change so it's no longer influential in the same way that it's been, and that process can take different forms.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's literally just see-feeling the difference of, oh my god, I am not my grandmother, but you see it visually and you feel that as a body, and sometimes it could be a ritualization of giving some things back and [SPEAKER_02]: So for a listener, is that they want to do a reflection.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a simple practice or reflection that you can share with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: They can kind of work more toward integration.

[SPEAKER_01]: Would you like me to walk through just a basic thing?

[SPEAKER_02]: That would be wonderful.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I would love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any posts that's there yourself?

[SPEAKER_01]: Can you please see?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, look at that.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was meant to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: And a pen, what you do, Nasni, and I just want to make that clear because as people will experience, it is so quick to reveal so much like even a second or a minute that, you know, just everybody who may want to do this, it is very an very intimate thing to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I just want to say that up front.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what we're going to do, since we're focusing on the heart sexuality split, and it's really interesting because immediately I noticed that I'm starting to slow down and how I'm speaking.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm dropping a little lower into my body because it's a bit of a different intelligence than the one that's so verbal and want so much to be able to communicate to you and to anyone who's listening.

[SPEAKER_01]: that I'm noticing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to ask all of us to just take a moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: It really helps me just to rock out just a little bit in my pelvis.

[SPEAKER_01]: Notice that I'm sitting on whatever surface I'm sitting on.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I start to include more of my body experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then I do, for example, when I'm sitting in front of a screen and from this place, this lower body awareness, I'm going to ask you if you'd like to do this to take a post it and just write me and then an arrow on it and the arrow signifies that if [SPEAKER_01]: the where the eyes are, we're humans and we have two eyes or most of us have two eyes in the front of our heads.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's very important because our bodies feel very different depending on which direction they're facing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you'd put me and an arrow, one for heart and an arrow.

[SPEAKER_01]: and when for sexuality.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, this could mean something different to each of you.

[SPEAKER_01]: You might want to maybe you're dealing with painful intercourse or a certain insecurity about your body.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you'd like to know what your current relationship is to that experience and how your heart may or may not be involved with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're just going to let your body place those on [SPEAKER_01]: In the way you experience that relationship, are they close?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are they far away?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are they really integrated and on top of each other?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is one on the top if that's the case?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are they 10 inches apart?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is one not even on the table noticing which direction they're facing?

[SPEAKER_01]: If they were little humans, three inches tall, standing on these, facing in the direction of the arrow, would they be able to see each other?

[SPEAKER_01]: And how does all feel?

[SPEAKER_01]: And here's the thing, how you place those generally right now because we haven't brought in a specific person or a specific event.

[SPEAKER_01]: This geometry is more about your just current general experience of that relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll just stop there for a moment before we bring in one more element, just to see what is that like for you, if you feel like sharing doesn't do it or you surprised by anything or does it feel like, well, of course, this is what my experiences.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am very curious.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I have, if I can show you this, you're going to show us.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is toward me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Me and wait, Charlotte, either arrows because of the thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So me and sexuality are side by side.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this towards me and heart is opposite and toward the outside.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for you, your context is your body sitting there.

[SPEAKER_01]: and you've placed these things in relationship to yourself sitting there, which I want to also acknowledge you're in a professional capacity right now, fitting in the chair, that is you could say the portal to thousands of people in the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this map that you just placed is within that context.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're on the right side, sexuality is on your left side in a partnership with just a little bit of distance, which is what you, if I may say, I want to ask you before I give in what's that like for you just those two components of seeing you in sexuality.

[SPEAKER_01]: facing you in the chair as a, you know, a podcaster and as a role model and, you know, as a beautiful teacher in all kinds of ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: What is that like when you see that, do you have a particular feeling about that?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting that like when you put in the context of different roles, right, that like me, sex shots, something that's more closer to me, more feels like private.

[SPEAKER_02]: But my heart is toward the kind of screen toward you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's more available to see, which is interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is interesting because of course your, I mean, this is my view of you having listened to many episodes is the courage that you have and what you do is so inspiring to me, particularly from the little bit I know about you and your culture that I have so much admiration.

[SPEAKER_01]: for if I may say the mission that you're on and the bravery with which you're doing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a very interesting thing that on one hand your experiences that sexuality feels private to you and yet you and sexuality are right next to each other facing yourself as the [SPEAKER_01]: If we were in a session, it would be really interesting to see, is that something you want to do like the map as it is?

[SPEAKER_01]: And listeners, if you've done this at home, what happens with that map?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you like it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Does it feel good to you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have judgment about it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have shame about it?

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people can feel a lot of shame.

[SPEAKER_01]: They don't like that there's a split or they want there to be more of a split.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's no judgment on whether people need to be [SPEAKER_01]: merged in these ways or not.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's good reason for people to be in any configuration.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is something that is really important.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you like it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is it working for you?

[SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean for you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to change it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are really important questions?

[SPEAKER_01]: And also, what's the context?

[SPEAKER_01]: For example, if we now brought in and I ask you all to bring in a specific person, [SPEAKER_01]: or if you want to bring an event or the religious, a religion, for example, your map might completely change.

[SPEAKER_01]: Things might blow apart.

[SPEAKER_01]: Things might come together.

[SPEAKER_01]: You might bring in somebody with whom you felt so aligned and you loved them and lusted for them and it was just a beautiful thing or a time when you and your current partner were that way and now they're not.

[SPEAKER_01]: So did you bring in anything in particular and again, you don't have to show us if you don't Yeah, no, of course it's very interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I put religion and I've been thinking about it because of like how much my upbringing, I've experienced really just trauma for people at a friend that she ended taking their life because of being pregnant.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it was like multiple layers to it and I've been [SPEAKER_02]: right because of how I feel and what like so I could see the thinking and I couldn't even put it on there on the table because it was just requires so much thoughtful mess so it's like put it like very distance toward away from my words and think sure all that exactly didn't you would well let me clarify that does that mean do you feel like you need to protect your sexuality from [SPEAKER_01]: religion as it's being represented in that particular post.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm thinking about religion.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just like completely away.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's like opposite direction to my sexuality, but it could be same way that my heart's right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if it's just I can see this exercise can help people to navigate things because for me what I'm thinking about is then [SPEAKER_02]: Now we have the new definition of a spirituality, right, and where would I be comfortable with that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like do I want it to be close to heart or not?

[SPEAKER_01]: I was just going to say that because this is what we use a lot, it's called a polar part.

[SPEAKER_01]: So religion can get conflated with spirituality for some people or God.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's be specific.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then people throw rather than the baby out with the bath water.

[SPEAKER_01]: They throw God out with the bath water or the or source or whatever that is.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because of that religious trauma and lose a certain sense of connection that is dear to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's exactly what I would have suggested for you is to bring one in for spirituality.

[SPEAKER_01]: and see whether or not it is more connected, not just to your heart, but to your sexuality, is your version of spirituality actually inclusive of the sexual, or does it feel like those need to stay split or distant, too?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are you going to be delightful?

[SPEAKER_01]: Want to do it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, that looks very interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: and folks who are listening if you want to bring in another component that this map kind of gives rise to that feels like it would be helpful.

[SPEAKER_01]: It might be a resource.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you might have brought in something that's upsetting you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some of us can feel a lot of grief.

[SPEAKER_01]: For example, when we see this kind of a split, you might want to bring in something that's soothing to you or is a positive experience that you've had with somebody as a resource or a person or [SPEAKER_01]: bring those in a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: Beautiful.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I put it closer to the hearts and it's the kind of like so that this is the heart and it's just pretty tall.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it could be like this, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like it did there need to be a trust developed?

[SPEAKER_02]: But it can be kind of like only the same direction.

[SPEAKER_02]: It could there's a possibility of slight merging.

[SPEAKER_02]: which is very interesting and powerful and I can see this is very powerful and also for people that they had with rail, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like you when there is kind of in the relationship and like do you then like for example people who they're been at a fair?

[SPEAKER_02]: do you put that other partner in the map or the focus, you know, you said the focus on the monogamous relationships or the, and the this context will be only the partner, primary partner.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I love it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I worked for years at the Center for Healthy Sex in Los Angeles doing this work.

[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes we'd have very little time.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd have half an hour with somebody in one of the outpatient treatment, you know, intensive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Shout out to the Center for Healthy Sex.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's an amazing place and it's what I almost always will do is I first want to find out, particularly when there's sexual compulsivity, a lot of betrayal, addiction, destructive behavior.

[SPEAKER_01]: is I want to know first of all how open to support how resource does that person from the get go because oftentimes people are using exterior relationships as a some kind of resource in order to meet some kind of need.

[SPEAKER_01]: or express some different aspects of themselves that they feel has to be split in off in order to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you can definitely see how one of these maps you can really see what it's what it's doing, how it's functioning that other relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: But so often I'll ask somebody to first bring in their mother and their father as well as them because I want to see that basic template.

[SPEAKER_01]: did they grow up with a sense of support?

[SPEAKER_01]: Did they grow up as I mentioned earlier, emotionally insisted in a way where they're not allowed to be fully committed to another partner?

[SPEAKER_01]: Did they grow up with their parents, you know, 10 feet or 10 inches apart in opposite directions and they were the product of unwanted pregnancy, which I've seen a lot?

[SPEAKER_01]: You can see that in minutes [SPEAKER_01]: So then when you ask somebody to bring in first their current partner, you can see what the availability is of that person to be in that relationship and then you can also see what the function is of the person they with whom they are having an affair in this case.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, are is that person buffering them from a parent or from a nagging partner or a partner who's unavailable sexually?

[SPEAKER_01]: People know immediately how to map that out so that it's literally either on the floor or on the table and then find the agency by which they can go, ah, this feels terrible.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is exactly how it feels.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want this anymore or I love this.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is this is what I want more of.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or I need to leave this relationship and then actually look to the map on finding a new pathway to do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can see this being such a helpful resource for people to understand themselves.

[SPEAKER_02]: through survive in this world, and sometimes we don't have the right tools and strategies and it can help us to see in the curious way where is our baseline.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is so helpful, so for our listeners that they want to learn more about this approach, they want to learn more about you.

[SPEAKER_02]: What are some of the places they can find you?

[SPEAKER_01]: So my website is www.a-o-i-m-e-z-e-y.com and there's all kinds of goodies there and explains all kinds of things and the other things I'm doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like my podcast, the Brilliant Body Podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: because everything I do is all about the intelligence of the body and exploring how we can utilize it and access it and benefit from it and expand it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm starting a new class to teach this work to professionals who are sex therapists, therapists, coaches.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've taught all kinds of different [SPEAKER_01]: and then I also do work one-on-one and have new somatic emergence where I put together also my hands on capacity and mastery into really taking people through a one-to-three-day journey to transform, really comprehensively, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is such a meaningful work.

[SPEAKER_02]: I even also now want to kind of explore it more myself because I can see it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm surprised with elements of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I can imagine that it can be very beneficial for clinicians and coaches.

[SPEAKER_02]: We leave a link in there.

[SPEAKER_02]: in addition to general population.

[SPEAKER_02]: And our listeners are often psychologically more curious.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we leave a link in the show notes to the website.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if people are interested to do this work with you or learn about that workshop, they can find you there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much with being so generous with your time, with your knowledge, with such a gift to have you on our show.

[SPEAKER_01]: for your generosity and, again, your courage for really being such a pioneer and breaking out of what I can imagine or some of the cultural constraints or all of them perhaps in order to be able to do what you're doing and to just be, as I said earlier, just a beacon of sexuality and sexual education.

[SPEAKER_01]: and doing it with so much heart.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do want to just add one last thing which you can of course edit out, but it's so interesting to me if I may say how you view your sexuality looking in one direction and your heart looking in a different one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even though by listening to you, it's so clear that they're merged, so I just wanted to say that that perhaps that might guide a further exploration of your body map there, is just to see whether what that would be like to have them move on there, so that spirituality and sexuality and heart might be much closer than you might think, [SPEAKER_01]: for having me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Ali for being so generous and kind and helpful and informative.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm super grateful for all the wisdom that you're shared with us, shared with me, and hopefully we'll have you in our future episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: Love it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Always available.

[SPEAKER_01]: My pleasure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you again.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sexual confidence isn't something you born with.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's something you call to [SPEAKER_02]: And as Ali reminded us today, reconnecting your heart and sexuality can change everything from how you show up in your relationship to how you experience desire.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you're looking into bringing more creativity and closeness into your relationship, don't forget to grab our free guide of 101 ways to keep your relationship hot.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a therapist approved list of sexy, playful and meaningful ways to reconnect with your partner.

[SPEAKER_02]: The link is in the show notes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And a big thank you to today's sponsor, Wifey.

[SPEAKER_02]: The darkestile series that divides into the real emotional, depth of hardwifeing and ethical non-monogamy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Watch it now at Wifey.vng.studio or follow them on Instagram at Wifey updates.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll see you next week with another episode to help you cultivate more confidence, connections, and pleasure in and out of the petrol.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening to Sixology Podcasts.

[SPEAKER_02]: For more great content, visit www.sixologypodcast.com.

[SPEAKER_02]: Please be advised that information presented on this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health provider.