Jeff Goodes: The first thing I always talk to people about is like, who do you wanna reach and what do you wanna tell them?

And what value can you give to them that will make them wanna spend a half an hour with you?

So a lot of people, you know, we have the idea podcasting for a general audience.

But there's, it's really important to think of the potential for podcasting as a narrow casting tool for a specific audience.

Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired.

I'm Neil McPhedran.

Founder of Podium Podcast Company and HigherEdPods.com.

Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, the founder of JPod Creations.

Podcasting is broadcasting.

And we want you to know you're not alone.

In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there, and we can all learn from each other.

Neil McPhedran: You are right Jen, as usual.

And there is, continues to be lots of exciting things going on in HigherEdPods.com.

I think we mentioned we have launched a Slack channel.

So if you join in the top right corner of the website, you will see through there, you'll see an invitation to join the Slack channel.

We're getting people joining almost every day, starting to get some good conversation going there.

And if you wanna connect with fellow higher education podcasters, it's a great place to do it.

So I would encourage you to go to the website and join, but also just sort of check out all the new podcasts that keep getting added.

Again, like daily.

We're getting near 1200 now in there.

So really getting some critical mass.

Jennifer-Lee: It's a party in that Slack channel.

Neil McPhedran: Today, on this episode, we are chatting with Jeff Goodes, fellow Canadian.

Jennifer-Lee: Another person you met in America that's Canadian.

Neil McPhedran: That's right, that's correct.

Yes.

Jeff and I met at Podcast Movement in Vegas a few years back, a couple years back, and we've kept in contact since then.

Jeff was, at the time when we met, he was actually just leaving the CBC, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, where he was a producer and journalist for many years and worked on numerous radio programs.

And more and more podcasts near the end of his career there.

Notably, he was the executive producer on Dr.

Brian Goldman's White Coat, Black Art, which if you're Canadian, you know what that is.

For the non-Canadians out there, that is CBC Radio's National Medical Program.

So it's a very popular radio show and obviously a podcast now too because CBC does such a good job with the podcasts.

Jeff has brought all of that wonderful experience now into the world of podcasting where he is focused.

And he actually has worked with a number of higher education institutions.

Notably, he was the journalist in residence for a couple of years, just ending last year, with McMaster University's Faculty of Science.

So we have a really great conversation with Jeff.

And Jen, he's a fellow broadcaster, so you know, we may talk about that.

Jennifer-Lee: You know that's my favorite.

Not only that, I've just realized a pattern with you, because you go to these podcast conferences in America and you meet really cool people that are part of broadcasting and are podcasters.

Neil McPhedran: I dunno, come talk to me if you're a former broadcaster.

Jennifer-Lee: And you're Canadian.

Neil McPhedran: And you're Canadian.

There you go.

Jennifer-Lee: I just think it's funny because we go to these conferences and there's so many amazing people from all over the world, or sometimes mainly from America, and they're so talented and there's maybe one or two or three Canadians.

Somehow we all find each other still.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

That is quite amazing.

Well, what's exciting is, is speaking of conferences coming out of PodCon, we have a whole bunch of interviews lined up with folks and conversations.

So over the next weeks and months, we'll be rolling through a bunch of amazing folks that attended the Higher Ed PodCon, and we are going to bring them to this podcast and talk to them about their experience in higher education podcasting.

But otherwise, why don't we just get into this one with Jeff, because it's really interesting how we talk about storytelling and how good old journalism has such an important role in podcasting, especially for higher education podcasters.

Jennifer-Lee: So let's learn from Jeff.

Neil McPhedran: Let's do it.

Jeff, it's great to have you join us here on Continuing Studies.

Jeff Goodes: Thanks for having me.

I'm looking forward to it.

What could possibly go wrong?

Neil McPhedran: What could possibly go wrong?

It's nice having a fellow Canadian on today.

Jennifer-Lee: Rare.

It's so rare.

I was like, what?

Neil McPhedran: So good.

So awesome.

So Jeff, we met a couple of years ago, uh, at Podcast Movement Evolutions in Vegas, right?

It was the biggest one, I think.

Yes.

You were just starting your journey from stepping away from a number of years at the CBC.

So for those of you listeners, that's the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and you had spent a bunch of time there producing some amazing radio shows such as White Coat, Black Art, which was great.

And now you've made your way into this exciting world of higher education academic podcast.

So maybe just give us a little bit of insight into who you've been working with, what institutions you've been working with, and some of the specific podcasts you've been working on lately.

Jeff Goodes: I retired from the CBC two years ago, and I've never been busier, so.

Jennifer-Lee: Welcome to not retirement.

Jeff Goodes: Yeah.

Is the not retirement podcast.

I was very fortunate because right outta the gate I met with, I was connected with Jay Robb, who is the manager of communications, I believe, with the Faculty of Science at McMaster.

And we sat down, and he was doing something that he was really passionate about, which was having a journalist in residence within the Faculty of Science of McMaster.

And he had done one and Avis Favaro had, had done that the year prior from, who was with CTV for many years.

And he invited me to take part in it and I was just like thrilled.

So that was like the first thing right out of retirement.

I basically went out for dinner and then the next day showed up for work.

So that was a lot of fun and that was a kind of a learning opportunity, 'cause there's no template for this particular position.

You just figure out what, what you could possibly offer to them and, and go do it.

So we decided the best thing that I could do would be to do media training with some of the profs, talk to them about what they're doing and, and how best to communicate that to different audiences.

And then I did a number of presentations and then we decided, well, it's one thing to talk about it, but it's another thing to do it.

So let's invite some of the faculty onto a podcast.

We'll create a podcast and one thing that they had been wanting to do is to demystify some of the faculty for some of their undergrads and master's students, and to demystify the academic process.

Like how do you get to be a prof?

How do you go from undergrad to master's to what happens in between that to PhD postdoc?

It's quite a route, right?

And for a lot of people who might be interested in it, it's kind of daunting.

So we created this podcast called Moment Mentor Memento.

So we would ask a prof to sit down and think about a moment that helped define their career, and a mentor who helped 'em get there, and a memento that they carry with them to remind them of their journey.

And so that was a way of opening up the journey of how people got to where they are.

And it was very interesting for me as a person to discover that almost to each and every one of them, no one had a straight line to what they were gonna do, right?

It was always, like you think of people being, like a lot of young students today are, are being asked to, you know, they're quite driven, right?

And they're quite focused and they're like, oh, we gotta do this.

We gotta, you know, we gotta make sure that, you know, everything's gotta be in the perfect order.

And reality is that that doesn't happen.

So it was refreshing to bring a humanity or a, a little piece of humanity into, into something that a lot of people found quite daunting.

So that was one.

Jennifer-Lee: I love that you were saying that it's not a straight line, and the fact that you created a podcast to demystify the idea of a professor, because I think that's a problem too, is like they always say the old adage, those who can't do teach.

So you think a lot of the times that these teachers are just people that never made it in their career and that is so not true.

Some of the best professors are people that have had lengthy, amazing careers.

Again, they were not a straight line, they just didn't go into teaching, that's it.

They did a zigzag and they were able to gather all their knowledge.

Then be in the position that they're in now to teach people.

So I think having a podcast like that is a great way to open up the door for people to understand a professor relationship to student.

Jeff Goodes: Well, here's another thing I learned is that with, you're hired to be a professor, you're not hired on your ability to teach or to communicate, you're hired on your research.

And you're expected, like that's expected to be kind of the primary thing that you do.

And then it's like, oh, by the way, you're teaching five classes.

And then so these profs get thrown into this kind of big soup of teaching, and a lot of 'em have like zero experience, zero training.

So I was working with the McCall MacBain Postdoc Foundation, it was another group I was working with.

And they, their vision is to teach future professors how to teach and how to communicate.

So we created a podcast as well for these folks as a learning tool.

And we called it, This Could Change Everything.

And it was a way of getting postdocs to be able to explain their research to a broader audience and to hone their communication process.

Which kind of highlights one of the big things about academic podcasting is that it reaches a lot of different audiences and it has a lot of different purposes depending on what you're doing.

So, so those are a few examples of what I've been doing.

Neil McPhedran: I love that.

I always like when we come across, I mean, I completely agree.

It's amazing, and Jen and I, sort of doing this for a couple of years now, have just met so many amazing people, literally around the world, doing so many different things in academia, higher education, podcasting.

And I love when we hear stories like you're telling us where it's using podcasting as part of the process or as part of the teaching, or in this case as part of the learning process.

That example you just gave is like, the bonus is there's a podcast at the end, but it's the making of the podcast that's part of the process and the learning.

Jeff Goodes: Absolutely, and I was working with another client who was creating a podcast as an asynchronous learning tool for her, so she can use it for her first year students and second year students as a way of, instead of sitting in a room full of 500 people, you can start by listening to the podcast, and then you've got the foundation.

So instead of listening to someone at the front of the room for a long time, you can listen to your professor do an interview.

It creates a human connection with them.

It becomes, you know, there's an engagement happening.

Then you go to the lecture, you're bringing something to it, you know, there's already a connection between the student and the teacher.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

Jennifer-Lee: I just love, Neil, that like, and you kind of touched upon a bit, is the fact that we've been doing this for two years and every time I think we're gonna talk to somebody, it's gonna be the exact same concept, it's different.

I think you're the first one, Jeff, that we've talked to that really pulls back on who the teachers are, your podcast.

Because usually other podcasts that we've done have been about very certain topics like science or art.

And that's something that I talk about to people and I think Neil and I do this with both companies, is that podcasts are beyond, of course, you want listens and exposure, but they're great tools.

They can be used as communication tools.

They can be used as business relationship building tools.

I've heard a lot of people, someone he introduced me to, talked about that people are using it as a resume and a way to get jobs.

I just like that you're thinking outside of just what a traditional podcast is.

Jeff Goodes: Absolutely.

And you know, within a university environment, you're not going to create a podcast that's gonna be on the top 1% of downloads.

The first thing I always talk to people about is like, who do you wanna reach and what do you wanna tell them?

And what value can you give to them that will make them wanna spend a half an hour with you?

So a lot of people, you know, we have the idea of podcasting for a general audience, but there's, it's really important to think of the potential for podcasting as a narrow casting tool for specific audiences.

And in academia that's very, very important.

So whether you're talking to your peers or whether you're talking to a specific group of people that's very much interested in what you're doing or whether you're talking with students, or whether you're using it as a fundraising tool.

You know, it can be very effective in that way to create that kind of content that begins a conversation with a potential funder.

So lots of different ways you can use it.

Jennifer-Lee: I love that you just said fundraising tool.

That's something else that I never thought of.

Like I thought about it as business relationship building or community building, but fundraising tool would be a really great way too.

Jeff Goodes: Absolutely.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

For alumni podcast.

I guess we have talked to a few alumni podcasts, but we haven't really gotten into the fundraising side, so yeah, it's great.

So Jeff, coming out of the CBC, sort of working in public broadcasting, was it a natural progression to move into academic podcasting?

Did you find there was sort of a natural fit there?

Like curious sort of how you ended up getting into this world of academic podcasting coming from a public broadcaster.

Jeff Goodes: Well, when it happens, at the time it seems like it just kind of happens.

But then you look back and you go, okay, yeah, there are definite reasons why this happened.

So one reason was, in retrospect, the time you're just like, I don't know what's going on.

But I did my master's about five years ago.

Neil McPhedran: Oh, great.

Jeff Goodes: Through Royal Roads.

I did a masters in Learning and Technology, and I focused on podcasting as much as I could through that.

My last sort of big thing was to, uh, focus on podcasting as a learning tool for medical residents.

Which kind of tied into my work with White Coat, Black Art.

And because what the White Coat, Black Art was often used as a tool for, for learning in universities.

It was often assigned or, or just organically.

People would come up to you and go, you know, I listened to your show and I was studying to be a doctor in residence and so it's fantastic.

And you know, so I did my masters in that and that went really, enjoyed that.

And then when I retired I decided, well, what I'm gonna do now is I'm going to work for people I like who are doing things that are interesting and might just move the needle a bit.

The cool thing about working on a medical show is that it can be very technical, but it always affects you as a person, right?

Because we all have the same body.

We all have minds, things that are studied through medicine, so there's always a connection point.

That makes medicine kind of an easy sell to a larger audience.

When I was doing my masters, talking about medical students, using a lot of podcasts, they were like podcast super users.

The reason is that I was like, why are they podcast super users?

So I did a little digging and looked into a lot of the studies and talked to different people.

And the reasons that I came up with were, you know, one, this is a great group to become podcast users 'cause their goal is to assimilate a huge amount of information quickly and in a very kind of competitive, pressurized environment.

So they're learning constantly.

So if they can learn while they're cooking dinner or taking the bus home or shopping or cleaning up the house by listening to a podcast, then that's great.

So there's, there's that.

And then the other thing that, that they really liked was the fact that you can stop and go back, right?

Great thing about podcasting you can stop, go back 30 seconds.

I've listened to that again.

You know, it's very flexible that way.

But the most important thing that they referenced like over and over again, which was a big surprise to me, was the human connection.

Because being in medical school can be very isolating.

It's very competitive.

And you know, and they would say, like when you ask people why they love podcasts, people would love the human connection.

The fact that they would form the, that kind of parasocial relationship with the host and they would love that.

And that was very important to them.

And that really struck me because that's being, working at the CBC, you know what kind of effect radio has on people and what kind of relationship people form with you listening to you every week.

And so I would, I kind of, I understood that, but I underestimated the power.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah.

When we chatted with Dr.

White from Surgery 101, he had some great stories just about how when he would go to medical conferences, he told us about that he went to a medical conference in Ireland.

And he was speaking and found out he was in a room full of people that have listened to his podcast and thought they all knew him and were friends with him already.

And so it was just such an amazing experience for him because it was like this friendly audience that was, everyone was super excited to meet him and to say hi to him because just to your point, they had made that it, you know, they'd all made in their minds this personal relationship with, with him.

And I know that I do that with the podcasts that I listen to.

Like if I ever saw some of these hosts on the street, I'd be like, hey, you're my best friend, kind of a thing, right?

Such an intimate relationship we form with the podcast hosts.

Jennifer-Lee: And then the other thing going on top of that, which I love the one-to-one communication is that, you know, there are so many experts in all these different fields, and not one person knows it all or has different takes on some of the information.

So I like the fact that these podcasts are making education so accessible around the world so we can have those conversations.

Like the Surgery 101 guy, like he's going to Ireland and he is talking to other people and it's like, yeah, they have people that study what he does in Ireland, but everyone has a little bit of a different take on it, which I like.

Jeff Goodes: And you think about the life of a surgeon, like a surgeon is part of a team, but he works in isolation, right?

He doesn't know what's going on in different cities or different continents or just different hospitals.

So the ability of a podcast to bring that network of people together is super valuable for professionals.

Neil McPhedran: So, Jeff, now that you've been, I guess, quote unquote full on into the podcasting world over the past couple of years, what have you been seeing, especially with your deep radio background, like what has been sort of happening in the podcast world over the past couple of years, especially with this academic higher education podcasting?

Jeff Goodes: I always see that there's a great interest in podcasting.

And I think, you know, I don't know what the demographics are, the average podcast listener, but I'm sure that those who are in higher education or a bachelor's or a higher degree probably listen to a lot of podcasts.

'Cause they are, people talk to you about podcasts and they're like, oh, I'm a big fan of this podcast or that podcast and, and so, you know, just as listeners, I meet a lot of people who are extraordinarily into podcasting.

The other thing is, it's interesting to note how quickly it has become legitimized within the academic world.

And when I was doing my Masters, it was kind of like, you know, it was a little fringy to talk there.

There weren't a ton of studies on podcasting and now like there are thousands, you know?

Thousands and thousands of papers.

So it's at McMaster University where I was working, they have a media lab.

They had just installed a really nice podcast studio.

So they started with, this is probably typical with a lot of universities.

They started with a little booth where people would go in and talk into the microphone and you know, do their own podcast one-on-one or do a phoner or something.

And then they created this nice studio with a road caster and three or four mics so that people could do interviews like that.

And then they built another one it was so popular.

So they had two podcast studios now at McMaster, plus the little booth thing.

The spoken word is becoming such an important part of learning.

And I think that when it comes to AI, the big elephant in the room breathing down our necks, I think podcasting is going to be one of those things that will allow us to authentically connect to each other in a learning environment.

Only us real human beings for the moment have the ability to, to actually be, you know, tangible and be in the real world, right?

So we could apply knowledge and you know, one of the great thing about podcasting is to take a study and actually apply it to the real world.

Right?

And to critique it properly, right?

And to, you know, to, to talk about real world experiences.

And that's something that AI can't do.

And so we need to value that and understand that.

We're all hyped and excited about AI.

But I think in that hype, we have to be extraordinarily careful as to the limitations of it.

And I was, just did Aberdeen at a science communication conference and I did a fun thing.

'Cause, you know, I'm not a scientist, I can't present papers or whatever, but I, they had this performance element and I did a live debate with CahtGPT, podcasting versus AI, which was kind of fun.

The point was that we have to we value the authenticity of what we do as communicators and what we do as academics, and we can't sell it down the road to AI and not appreciate what it is that we bring to the conversation as human beings.

Neil McPhedran: That's a really good point.

I like that idea too, of the live demo there.

That's great.

Jeff Goodes: It was pretty funny.

Neil McPhedran: That's good.

When we talked previously, you mentioned how you think podcasting is a great medium to make research more accessible.

I think you kind of talked a little bit about it previously in our conversation here, but maybe can you unpack that a little bit for us?

Like what is it you think about podcasting that does a good job of making research accessible?

Jeff Goodes: The real benefit of podcasting is kind of tied to its limitation.

Because if you have a study, there's no way you can really accurately convey the content of a study in a podcast.

You can't spew a huge pile of numbers of people.

It just doesn't stick, right?

You can do like maybe one number, you're talking to academics, maybe two.

But after that, people just kind of get lost in the numbers and nothing sticks.

So what you can do though, is you can interpret, you can critique, you can apply what's in the study and you can, you know, apply it to the real world and you can analyze it.

So you can add that sort of deeper layer of conversation that you don't get in just presenting the study.

So the study becomes the basis for a conversation that brings in all sorts of different things from different areas as academics or as professionals.

And then, you know, I always say, make sure you have vigorous show notes so that if you're talking about a study, make sure you've got the link to the study and the link to this theory, the link to that.

You can back up everything that you're saying in the podcast with facts.

But it's that way of going deeper and you know, really having that three dimensional conversation.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

So, and then your time in producing radio stories and radio shows, what did you bring from that into podcasting?

'Cause I think there's a real crossover there.

All, all that you learned and applied from creating stories in radio must be applicable to podcasting.

There's a lot of rigor I think on the radio side that's quite applicable and I think, like for me, I come from a digital marketing background, so I didn't bring all that skillset and knowledge to the table coming to podcasting, but you are coming at it from producing radio.

Sort of curious what you've brought into the world of podcasting.

Jeff Goodes: I think, you know, the most important, and I kind of alluded to this earlier, is the idea of the importance of human connection in order to make sure that you are reaching your audience.

In order to make sure you have an effective product that's going to engage people.

I hosted the weekend morning show for 10 years in Ontario.

It's called Fresh Air.

You guys have North by Northwest out in BC.

Neil McPhedran: When were you doing that?

What years were you doing that show?

I was living in Toronto then.

Jeff Goodes: 1998 to 2008.

Neil McPhedran: There you go.

I would've been, would've been listening to you.

There you go.

Jeff Goodes: You would've been lying in bed going, I can't believe I forgot to turn the clock radio off.

It's Saturday.

But no, we had a big audience because people would, you know, Saturday morning you actually have time to listen to the radio.

But one thing that we would do every late August, beginning of September, is we would talk to people dropping their kids off at school, at university for the first time.

And it was such a powerful emotional event for people, right?

So they would call us up and they would be driving down the 401 weeping.

Like so happy, the new chapter of life, but so sad because it's such a moment of mixed emotions.

So we had this, we had created this community where people would just feel free to call us up and share what's going on in their lives, right?

So there was trust.

And there was a community.

And you know, to be able to create that through audio is pretty amazing.

So that's important to understand the power of that.

So even when we went on to things like White Coat, Black Art and Dr.

Brian Goldman, the host, he would always say, and I've stolen this from him, but he would always say, when we were pitching stories, he would go, okay, what's the heartbeat?

What's the heartbeat in this story?

Because you would, he said every story has to have a head and a heartbeat.

So we would make sure it has the intellectual vigor to be a story and it's got the meat and it, you know, applies to people's lives in order to make it relevant.

But what's gonna bring people in.

Who's, what's the first person story that, that's gonna make people not turn off the radio on a Saturday afternoon when they're sitting in the parking lot of a supermarket?

So we always made sure that we had that.

Jennifer-Lee: I love that, and that's something that I always tell people that radio's so good at, and you should always bring it to podcasting, is that community feel.

Because I ended up getting sent on vacation relief one time, like I was already up north, but then they had a little station like five hours up north that was owned by Astral at the time, and the town I was living in was 20,000.

So we didn't do this, but the town I went up to was like 5,000.

And I remember I had to fill in for the one guy that worked at the station, gave him vacation relief.

And we did a segment every Sunday that was like a yard sale and you would literally had to be like, Flo has a tractor for sale.

And then people like ate it up.

And I was like, this is the best thing.

Like people don't believe that I did this, but it's real.

And it was like a hit show.

Jeff Goodes: Oh yeah.

And I bet you would've a chat with Flo about how her day was going and, you know, where'd the tractor come from and what'd you use it for?

And blah, blah, blah.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, and then the funny thing is, like I said, when you're up in that town, because they feel like they know you, similar to podcasting, but on a smaller scale, they knew I was new in town, they knew I was only there for a few weeks.

I didn't say this, but they just knew it.

I got offered, offered sandwiches, like to go out for dinner, like, you know, it's a cool thing with small town radio, which is something I totally pull into podcasting.

But the other thing I'd like to talk to you about from radio is, I think, I'd like your thought on this, but I think broadcasters do it well and some podcasters do it, is really the one-to-one communication.

I remember in radio school, they always tell us like, how many people are you talking to?

And everybody's like millions of people on the radio and they said that could be the case.

But you're actually talking to one person.

And I feel like sometimes a lot of people in podcasting don't necessarily direct their show to the one person.

And, and it goes back to that connection you were talking about.

It's like if I'm driving in my car and I'm listening to your podcast, or I'm walking the dog or on the bus, I want you to be talking to me.

I don't want you to be talking to everybody.

Jeff Goodes: That's, that's a very good point.

And I always make sure that if somebody is recording something, they're talking to someone and not just like in radio, they say, imagine a 35 year old woman, blah, blah.

No.

It's like, no, you need somebody like three feet away from you that you're talking to because it's very, it's so hard to go into a booth and just extemporaneously talk.

And you can't expect people to have the craft to be able to do that 'cause it takes a long time.

So you gotta sit down with them and just encourage and, and show them how to have a conversation.

Especially when you're dealing with people who, who are just starting out.

That's super, super important.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, it takes a long time.

I'm like, it took me 20 years to get here because if you listen to my first few radio breaks, oh they were rough.

Jeff Goodes: Yeah.

Mine, I was terrible as well.

Neil McPhedran: So the big hairy thing in the room right now is video.

Every time you turn around in podcasting, it's video, video, video, video, video.

And Spotify's saying you have to be on video, and you know, so on and so forth.

I've had like four video conversations today.

What do you think about that, Jeff?

What's your thoughts there?

How does video change things or does it?

Jeff Goodes: Video does change things.

I think video is important and I think that, you know, we, in many instances it certainly helps.

I think it's very important to use video, especially when you're doing social, to get your message out on TikTok and whatever, like that's, that's super important.

I think that it really helps with YouTube and that YouTube has become perhaps the primary place where people find podcasts.

Like a lot of videos is actually quite substantial.

So yeah, video is good.

At the same time, I'm torn, right?

Because you have to make a decision what you want the podcast to do, right?

If you want the podcast to reach a small audience of professionals who happen to be in the same business, and it's almost like a community of practice, or it's like, you know, sharing skills or whatever, you don't need video.

I don't think you'd be in video for that.

If you're looking for a larger audience, then I think video becomes more important.

It's a challenge for me to recommend video because it can really change the performance and especially if you're not used to doing podcasting and you're just learning, right?

And podcasting is a craft and a skill and, you know, it's much easier I think to sit down in front of a mic and to hone your craft that way, and then, you know, ramp up to video, maybe on the second season.

It can really affect the performance for some people, because having two cameras and lights in a room, it takes away your attention from the other person, from the matter at hand, and it can affect the content.

So one thing I might recommend is that you can do a audio podcast, but create separate video clips for, for social, you know, like maybe that's the way to start.

And then next we kind of ramp up to or scaffold up to, to a video podcast.

Jennifer-Lee: I agree with you, Jeff.

It's important for search and there's other ways to get around it, like putting placards up and stuff like that.

I know, and I've seen it, huge podcasts with big followings that have just done a placard up for a long time until they even switch to video.

I think get good with audio and telling your story first.

If you're able to do it sideways, upside down, and make people engaged by your audio, you'll be good then to go to video.

Jeff Goodes: And to not get too much into the weeds.

But one great thing about audio is that you can edit the hell out of it.

Like you can really get rid of the ums and the ahs and the pauses.

I was working with a video producer on a podcast last year.

And she said, oh, just edit what you usually do and then send it to me and I'll just match it up.

And I sent it to her and she was like, oh my God, I had no idea that this is how you edited an audio podcast.

'Cause there's like, you know, there's like a hundred edits or whatever, right?

You just edit out little bits here and then, you know, and in video you can't do that.

You have to, Neil McPhedran: All the jump cuts.

Yeah.

Jeff Goodes: You can't have all the jump cuts, so you have to be much more judicious.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, and that's why I like podcasting, because there's no excuse.

There's no excuse to have a good sounding podcast because there's always tools and you can edit.

But I do love that I had radio background first, because you learn a lot about how to be more concise.

You learn about a structure, you learn what happens when you fail live.

Which, you know, every radio broadcaster has done a billion times when you sucked it a bit, and I think it really prepares you then for podcasting and then you're like, it's such a luxury to be edited afterwards you're like, oh, no pressure.

Neil McPhedran: I couldn't imagine going live.

I'm just getting my podcast legs out from underneath me and being able to be edited.

So, well, Jeff, thank you so much for joining us today.

It's been a great conversation, some really good insights.

I, I like hearing people's journeys, how they got into this corner of podcasting, not just how you got into podcasting, but this higher education academic corner of podcasting.

It was great you were able to share with us today and some good insights too.

So thank you so much.

Jeff Goodes: Thank you.

I really enjoyed it.

Neil McPhedran: What a great conversation we just had with Jeff.

I really enjoyed that.

Jennifer-Lee: You always find the great people to talk to at conferences.

Jeff is another one and learned a lot from him.

And again, just like anytime, even if it's not from a direct post-secondary institution, we always learn so much.

Yes, he has ties or schools and stuff like that, but even his work on White Coat, Black Art.

It's like making learning very accessible to many people and really at the end of the day, that's what we're trying to do with higher ed podcasts.

Neil McPhedran: Exactly.

It was also really good to get his take on and just insights into the role of podcasting in academia.

Interesting, I mean, he, he's had academia through his career, but he's not coming from a core academic career.

Just interesting how he has come to this conclusion that we, you know, that we have, and everyone else listening here, this important role of podcasting in academia.

It's just good to hear him talk about that and making research accessible.

Another great episode, Jen, why don't you read us out?

Jennifer-Lee: Thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies podcast, the podcast for higher education podcasters.

We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring.

If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our podcast on your preferred platform, so you'll never miss an episode.

But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested in higher education podcasts.

We also invite you to join your peers on HigherEdPods.com, where you can connect with other podcasters in the higher education space and learn from others in the field.

Thank you for being part of our community.

We look forward to continuing to bring you valuable insights and conversations around a higher education podcast.

See you in the next episode.