Brett Spencer: I always say to my teams in both broadcast and podcasting, and the students here at the university, that actually making the program is only 50% of the job.

If you are a podcaster, you're probably doing three jobs on that podcast.

If you're not doing three jobs, you're probably doing all the jobs.

It's about, you know, kiting up somebody to be able to do all of those different jobs.

Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies podcast for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired.

I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcast Company.

Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, founder of JPod Creations.

Podcasting is broadcasting.

We want you to know you're not alone.

In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there, and we all learn from each other.

Neil McPhedran: And we are just coming out of our amazing weekend at PodCon where we met and we're inspired by all kinds of other higher ed podcasters.

Jen, today we are chatting with Brett Spencer and he is at the City St.

George's University of London, where they have a really exciting master's program teaching podcasting.

Brett also has a background coming out of the BBC.

He actually still does a few things at the BBC, which he mentions and explains that to us.

But over and above all that, he's also at Spirit Land Productions, which is a podcast production company.

And they also have a studio, it sounds like incredible.

I'd like to check it out, that incredible studio for producing podcasts in London as well too.

So lots to, lots to unpack there with Brett.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, it's a really well known studio too.

A lot of people like fly to film there.

I think that's pretty awesome.

And the fact that they're doing really neat things and he gets into it.

Like they do live podcasts, streaming live into theaters, which is, and again, Neil, and anytime I think that we interview these people for our Continued Studies podcast that like, that's it.

There's no more other types of jobs and podcasting or other ways to podcast.

And then also like, come on, they're like, oh, we're streaming a podcast live to theaters.

You're like, oh, okay.

Well that's another business venture.

Podcasting is growing and I'm really excited to, uh, chat with Brett.

Neil McPhedran: And just really get into this incredible program that the City St.

George's University of London has developed and the amazing students that are coming out of the program and getting into podcasting in all different shapes and sizes.

Jennifer-Lee: It's the only one, but I'm sure there will be more to come because it really is, and we talk about this a lot, there is no really formal education for podcasting.

But as it becomes more of an industry, we're gonna see that.

So Brett's part of that.

So let's get into it.

Neil McPhedran: Let's do it.

Hello Brett.

Thanks for joining us today.

Brett Spencer: Thank you for having me.

Long time listener to first time caller.

Neil McPhedran: There's a bit of a story, you and Jen met at the London Podcast show recently.

Brett Spencer: I'll let Jen tell that story.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.

Well, I'm a little embarrassed because like I know that people listen to us, but you don't realize who's listening to you.

And when you go to London, you don't expect that.

I realized I was at a podcast show, so I'm kind of setting myself up here.

But I went over to Brett because they had a booth for the London University and I chatted with him and I said, we would love you to be on our podcast.

And he is like, I listen to your podcast.

And I was like, no, you don't.

And so he actually had to like bring his phone up and like show me the apps.

And actually he does listen to us.

So that goes to show to everybody listening, you just don't know who's listening.

Brett Spencer: I really enjoy the podcast 'cause it's interesting to hear from lots of other people who are working in this sort of space in different parts of the world.

And particularly was struck by the gentleman you head on from Syracuse, whose name I don't remember.

But you know, there's a lot of learnings that you can take from other people when they're talking about what they're doing.

So it's a really good podcast.

Congratulations on it.

Jennifer-Lee: Thank you.

Neil McPhedran: So Brett, I don't think we've actually had too many people on the teach podcasting.

We had Carl on, uh, Jennifer-Lee: He knows Carl Hartley too, by the way.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, well I think obviously you guys are connected, but really we talk more to people using podcasts or our podcasters.

So this is great because I feel like starting to come across teaching of podcasting at the university level, you are at the University of London.

You're a senior lecturer in podcasting and it's actually a master's if, if I have this right.

It's a master's degree that is being offered at the University of London.

Brett Spencer: That's correct.

It's City University, which is part of the University of London, and it's offered by the school of journalism.

We've just completed the second year and we're about to go into a third year of the course.

And it was really about trying to fill a gap in the industry over here because.

You know, I've been in podcasting since 2005, 20 years now, and one of the things that's happened in that time, there's a lot of people coming into podcasting that don't necessarily have an audio background.

I set up a panel from the industry, about a dozen people who I gathered here at City, who sort of fed into what they thought the podcasting industry needed, because it was quite easy to find someone who knew how to make a program.

But it was everything else that people didn't necessarily know how to do.

And I always say to, to my teams in, in both broadcast and podcasting, and the students here at the university, that actually making the program is only 50% of the job.

If you are a podcaster, you're probably doing three jobs on that podcast.

If you're not doing three jobs, you're probably doing all the jobs.

It's about, you know, kiting up somebody to be able to do all of those different jobs.

And the podcasting industry has a lot of people coming into it from social media roles that don't necessarily have an audio background or from content creator roles and YouTube, making TikToks, et cetera, don't necessarily have an audio background.

We heard from the podcast companies here, it was difficult to recruit people who were all round podcasters who understood both how to make a program and the business.

Understood what they could do in terms of law and everything else.

So we designed the course around the needs of the industry.

The idea being that we hope the industry sees this as an incubator for new podcasting talent for them to hire later on.

Jennifer-Lee: That's really interesting because I come from a broadcasting background like you, Brett.

And I went to broadcasting school, and it's changing so much.

And I go back to see the professors.

They say they're not sure where they're going with the program because a lot of people aren't even going into traditional radio.

They do have a podcasting element, but it's not fully fledged out like the one that you're doing.

And I think that's so important.

It's great that people come from all backgrounds digital, like Neil is from public relations and digital marketing.

But I really think that root of broadcasting really helps you.

So it's great that you guys are doing that.

Because we're kind of in a weird transition.

Anyone can do a podcast, which is great.

But there isn't really any formal training unless they go to courses like yours.

Brett Spencer: Yeah, and you know, I'm not an academic, I'm not traditional academic.

This is the first time I've been in in this world, but I think getting industry people like myself, all the other people that come into the university to teach the students from around the industry, is really valuable because they're learning sort of real world skills.

We had 17 students this year, plus two part-time students.

They all had placements with podcast production companies.

A lot of them will get hired by those companies after their course finishes.

So it therefore really does act as a direct route into the industry and you're beginning to see lots of people who are coming off the course, you know, making great progress and all these various different podcast companies.

So we are, we are achieving what we set out to do.

Jennifer-Lee: And I love that you are still working in the industry as well, which sometimes does it happen in any area that you go into universities or college.

Like some of the teachers are just teachers, but I love that you are working with Spirit Land.

Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Brett Spencer: Yeah, so I work with a company called Spirit Land and we do lots of things.

We make our own original podcasts.

We also have a podcast studio, which houses podcasts for other companies who want to make our podcast with us.

And we also have an outside broadcast vehicles to do lots of big outside broadcast events.

And last year we did the first podcast to cinemas, so we did a podcast called Help I Sexted My Boss, which was doing a live show at the London Palladium and we broadcasted to 408 cinema screens around Europe and sold 25,000 tickets.

It's a whole new world for podcasting to be in, live broadcasting to cinemas, and we're looking to do some more of those going forward.

So I work Spirit Land one day a week, we're all ex-BBC, and I also work for the BBC two days a week.

So I run two local radio stations for the BBC as part of a job share, BBC3 counties Radio and BBC Northampton.

So I have too many jobs, but you know, that portfolio career is quite useful for the university because it means I'm spending, you know, more of my time in that world working with lots of production companies and then can bring that back into the university with me.

Neil McPhedran: I think that's great.

I mean, I think that speaks to, just even in that, what you just shared with us there, there's so many different angles to podcasting.

There's the journalistic side of it, there's the entertainment side of it.

You've got true crime, so on and so forth.

So I just think it's an interesting genre with so many different areas of focus.

Brett Spencer: One of the things that, that we talked to students about quite earlier, the different roles in podcasting, because it's not just about making the thing.

So actually, you know, we teach them lots of practical skills, like how to respond to a brief from a client, how to write a pitch document, how to pitch in the room, how to sell a, a podcast in the room, how to write a host read.

That's not something that comes naturally to people.

How to work with advertisers, how to work with platforms, all of those things which are part of podcasting, but there isn't necessarily anywhere to learn all of those things.

You know, great artwork is obviously really important as we know.

SEO, how to launch a podcast, what your social media plan should be.

All of those things are integrated as part of the course.

So students will leave with not just the ability to make something, but all of those skills that are needed in the marketplace.

And actually what I hope will happen is that some of our students will get really good jobs in the industry that are not involved in actually making the thing.

They might want to be involved in other specialist areas where there is a real need for people.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, I love that because there's so many different areas, like traditional broadcasting, everyone thinks of being on air.

And they don't realize that there is actually so many other types of jobs out there.

Like you could do documentaries and that's something that people don't think about doing in podcasting as well.

Or like you said, producing or selling, or like I was talking to someone yesterday that just does podcast media sales like you would for traditional radio.

So there's a world beyond this and like Neil, you come from like a PR and background.

A lot of this stuff you were doing back in the day, but now it's like you're just doing it with a podcast.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I mean, my background in digital, I've been focused on the digital marketing space for my career, so that's why it was a natural progression into podcasting.

I was with some former colleagues of mine and they were like, podcasting.

How did you get into that?

I feel like it's a combination of everything I've done in my career from developing digital content to a lot of the stuff you just said, Brett, like the SEO and pitching and obviously the advertising side of it.

I've just been doing that for years, but there's so much of it there.

The part that I've had to learn is the broadcasting part.

That is, you know, that I've had to learn as I've come into this.

A lot of that other stuff, I kind of came with it.

I am interested though, Brett, I mean it's the school of journalism that the program is coming out of, so is there still sort of a strong journalistic component to it as well too?

Brett Spencer: There is a journalistic component, but we also have a comedy masterclass and all the students can take specialism, so they can take a specialism in sports or in finance or in investigations, so there's a chance for them to spread their wings and do different things.

Obviously, a lot of them will end up working in entertainment or in comedy or within those wide variety of spaces.

It's the number one journalism school in the UK.

I think I'm allowed to say that.

It's great to have podcasting as part of that makeup.

Also, there's great facilities.

I'm speaking to you now in one of our radio studios.

We've got three bespoke podcasting studios.

We're building visualized studios over the summer.

The resources here are fantastic.

Jennifer-Lee: I know when you got on Brett, I was like, is he at the BBC right now?

Because your studio looks so professional and I would Kill as a broadcasting student to be in there because that looks great.

I want Neil to come to Lena next time too.

He had FOMO from not coming this time.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I'm definitely coming next time around for sure.

Brett Spencer: The podcast show is a fine example of just how the industry has grown over the last few years.

I started back in 2005.

You couldn't imagine something like the podcast show back then.

You look at the thousands of people that are coming through the doors, but whether they're content creators or advertisers or production companies or platforms, now to have a show of that size and scale dedicated to podcasts just shows how far the industry is coming in that 20 years.

Jennifer-Lee: I think that's really interesting that you say that, Brett, because I find that like, I'm glad I have Neil and a few other people because sometimes it feels like the industry is non-existent.

Yes.

We have a lot of clients in Canada, but like when we go to the US conferences or the UK conferences, people don't realize how massive the industry is and that it's growing.

Like I get excited when I go to those things.

Brett Spencer: Absolutely.

Neil McPhedran: I mean, especially in the last couple of years, I've just seen a tremendous, I mean, you've seen 20 years of growth, Brett.

I think though that in the last couple of years we've seen like an accelerated period of growth, especially in our little corner in higher education, that it just feels like more and more it's becoming such an important part of university communication.

Whether it be at the institutional level or whether it be the individual professor level.

It's such a great medium for higher education.

So not only to teach it and move on, but also to use it as such an important channel in the mix of what they're doing.

Brett Spencer: Yes, I agree.

But you still got a lot of people saying, so podcasting started to go mainstream.

No, it's been mainstream for a long time, but there were still 50% of people in the UK listen to a podcast every week.

That's still half people that don't.

So there's still an enormous amount of room for growth.

People, you know, occasionally say to me, well, so podcasting's got bigger reach than radio now?

Well it hasn't, you know, radio's still much bigger and it's got much more live listening.

I run two radio stations at the same time, so I see the other side of that.

So podcasting, you know, while it's grown hugely, still got a huge growth period to go through, if that makes sense, to reach the, you know, the mass that radio already reaches.

And it's interesting that the people that are coming in are clearly much younger.

So younger audience's coming into podcasting in the way that they're not coming into radio.

So those radio audiences that are between 18 and 24 now, when they're 24, 30, that's gonna lower the, the average age for people listening at that age, if that makes sense.

So we will start to see the impact of podcasting on radio audiences as time goes on, because one will be going up and the other one will be coming down at the bottom end of the scale.

Jennifer-Lee: Well, it's still just so young.

When we go to the conferences, they're like podcast is still in its first inning.

It just, everyone feels like it's a lot bigger than it is because they're hearing the buzz word podcast all the time.

They're not realizing and like looking at like actually how many live shows are out there.

They're just like, oh, I have a lot of people who are like, podcast is over.

It, it's too big now.

And I'm like, no, it's actually not.

Brett Spencer: No.

It's like people say sometimes, are there too many podcasts?

Well, are there too many TV shows?

You know, are there too many radio programs?

Are there too many books?

So, so no, there are not too many podcasts.

There's the thing about, well, podcasting really started with Serial.

No.

Some of us were ask it for a long time before Serial came along.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.

I'm curious because it is a journalism program, and I know we talked to Carl Hartley a little bit about this.

When you go to broadcasting school, they talk to you about being liable for like what you're putting out there.

Obviously a podcast, it's a little bit different because it's not quite governed the way that radio is.

So when you're teaching a journalistic integrity, are you guys still teaching be careful what you're reporting on?

Because that's the other thing that podcasting gets a bad rap that anyone can go out and say whatever they wanna say.

Brett Spencer: So every single one of our students has to do a media law module.

That's compulsory.

And they have to take a law exam as well.

The answer to your question is, is yes.

And we also make sure they adhere to, you know what music you can use.

Everything they produce needs to be something that you would put out in the real world without either getting sent to jail or getting sued.

Everything has to be of a broadcast standard.

So yes is the answer to your question.

Jennifer-Lee: That's great because I always, and Neil's working on one right now, working on a true crime podcast, but I'm always fascinated in that world because some people can go rogue and it works for them, but I'm like, this just feels like there's a lot of legal stuff that you have to like deal with because it's gonna come back at you.

Brett Spencer: So I worked at a podcast series last year called the Captain Tom Story.

Do you know, do you know who Captain Tom was?

Jennifer-Lee: No.

Tell us.

Brett Spencer: Okay.

So Captain Tom was a man who was 99 years old, and for his hundredth birthday, he walked laps around his garden during COVID.

Jennifer-Lee: Oh, I do know during COVID.

Brett Spencer: And he raised millions and millions for NHS.

But then it started to look a little murky as to where had some of that money gone.

And there were various accusations against his family, and you can tell that even now I'm treading carefully.

There was a charity commissioner report that came out just last year.

Myself and a colleague, Justin Dealey made a podcast series about that.

And we forensically looked through the accounts over many weeks and looked at where all the money had gone.

And then in the very last episode, some months later, we had the first interview with his daughter who had been accused of various things.

Important for me to say they, you know, they've not been charged with any crime and no crime's been created, important me to say that.

Neil McPhedran: You've taken your own course.

Brett Spencer: Yeah, but the point I'm making here is that during that period I spent more time with the BBC's legal department that I probably had in my, the 15 years put together when I was at the BBC as staff.

So that was a real life case I was able to present to the students that, you know, we were, on call was at 11 o'clock at night the night before an episode was coming out and still discussing what we might be able to say.

So having those real world examples that we're doing in real time is incredibly useful to be able to present to the students.

But is an illustration to them that you know, when you are working on a podcast, you've gotta be really, really careful about what you're saying and what you're putting out there.

Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting example and as Jen said, I'm in the beginning of that with a true crime podcast I'm working on here.

And I think maybe I need to figure out how to work with CBC on this end like you worked with BBC on your end to help with a lawyer.

We are getting advice though, that's for sure 'cause it's a cold murder case.

Definitely don't want to get ourselves into hot water there.

Brett Spencer: Well, somebody said to me the other day, they were working on something and they said, I'm having a nightmare with legal.

They're interfering all the time and getting involved.

And I said, no, the legal department are your friend.

You know what I mean?

They're the ones trying to keep you on the straight and narrow and keep you outta jail.

So, you know, make sure stuff is legally correct.

It's incredibly important.

Neil McPhedran: I think that's what's really interesting about the program there.

How multi, like when you rattled off a few minutes ago, all the different areas of it, I think when you kind of just start thinking about it on the outset.

You sort of think about the production side and whatnot, but then when you start really digging into what podcasting is, there's so much there.

'Cause it's a digital medium, so everything that comes along with digital nowadays, including the SEO kind of component of it.

But then what we just talked about with the legal side of it.

I mean, it's such a great program.

There must be some students that have come out of the program that are out in the podcast wild just doing some really interesting things.

Have you, have you seen that with the first couple of cohorts?

Brett Spencer: We've got two people working for Goalhanger who are the big UK outfit here, and we've got a third one who's just been hired by them, I think.

And I know that some of the students this year have also been hired by the companies they're working for.

We are seeing them translate into jobs quite quickly because the industry knows that if they've been on this course, then they're coming out as a fully rounded individual, if that makes sense.

And those that have work experience with a lot of those companies have seen firsthand what they are capable of.

And those skills, of all the things I talked about as opposed to just making the podcast, are the things the industry needs.

Which is why we had that sort of steering group before we started the degree of, what needs to be in this course that are the things you are looking for?

At that time when we had that steering group, three different companies had said to me that had recently gone through an interview process for a podcast producer and not hired anyone from that pool of interviewees that they've got.

So we knew there was a need that we could, that we could fill.

Neil McPhedran: That's great.

I love that there's the real world component to the program where the students are getting real world, uh, experience and then for some of them that's actually turned into a gig.

And what a win-win for like a Goalhanger, for example, to, uh, be able to see their capabilities firsthand.

Like, this person knows their stuff and they're great.

We're gonna hire them now.

Brett Spencer: And Goalhanger give us a 5,000 pound bursary for a student, which we award each year, which students could apply for, because I was quite keen that we enabled some students that wouldn't necessarily be able to afford to do the course to be able to take it.

So we have a 5,000 pound bursary from Goalhanger.

and we have a 25,000 pound scholarship from Spotify, which will cover all course fees and accommodation for a student, for Spotify, and those two things also come with work experience.

So the person's on that bursary then gets to go to work experience, so they get to go and work at those companies that are sponsoring them at the same time.

Jennifer-Lee: I love that.

I was just thinking about it because I went and saw Goalhanger speak at the podcast show, and I know that your students are there and so, you know, this is exciting for the students because you're sitting there and they're, you're seeing all these big emerging companies that you could potentially work for.

When I was a young broadcaster, I always wanted to work at the BBC, but it's just that same exciting thing of like, you're sitting there and you're like, oh, I wanna work for BBC or CNN, you know, it's neat to see these real life examples and when they're going to these different shows and be like, oh, I could actually work there.

Brett Spencer: And it's interesting you say that about the BBC and CNN because actually a lot of people now will go their entire career without ever working for a broadcaster, if that makes sense.

So, you know, certainly when I came through, I wanted to go and work for the BBC or for LBC or commercial radio, whatever.

But actually for a lot of people now, while they might make things for that broadcaster, but they may never actually work for a broadcaster.

And actually for many people, they may never have a staff job.

Because so much of the podcast industry is run on freelance staff.

You can be making two or three different podcasts in two or three different places.

You don't actually need a staff job anywhere.

So the way the industry is shaped has become quite different.

Neil McPhedran: So any of our listeners out there who are considering developing a podcasting program at their university, any sort of initial advice that you would share about getting things up off the ground?

Obviously it's a lot of work and there's a lot of components to it, but sort of anyone out there who's listening that is thinking about this, what would you say to them?

Brett Spencer: I think the steering group thing was really useful.

Finding out what the industry needs.

If you can get advice from people you think you'll be hiring into.

One of the advantages we've got is we are in London.

If you work for Acast, you can walk here, Spotify's up the road.

We are in a prime position.

If you are setting up a course in a major area with lots of companies in it, then that's gonna be different from setting up a course if you are perhaps in the middle of America.

So it's about where are you gonna feed your people into, if that makes sense.

And what can you deliver?

We do a great event in the autumn called Podcast Gold, where we get half a dozen of the winners of the British Podcast Awards to come in and talk in one evening, and they all get to do 15, 20 minutes each.

Last year we had a hundred students.

We had a hundred people from the podcast industry, and we can only really do that because we are in London, you know, and we can call on those people to come in and do that event.

We've done that three years now.

We'll do a fourth one this October, hopefully.

And that's become a sort of industry event that we are able to have in our calendar.

We're also able to go to lots of podcast events and shows and companies, because we are in London.

If you're doing something in New York and LA and there my friend Steve Goldstein does a fantastic course at NYU on the business of podcasting.

We hung out in London recently.

That's obviously gonna, you know, the people that he can bring in are gonna be different from the people that you can bring in elsewhere.

Neil McPhedran: I, I really like that lens that you put on it of it's not just a program and a course for someone to learn about, but you started with where are they gonna go after?

And it's connecting with the wider community that's gonna potentially hire these people, but also gonna be involved with the program.

And I think that's really important there to not think about this as separate academic exercise, but it needs to be closely aligned with the industry.

And what a great opportunity then to pull in industry as well to sort of connect more with them and just even down to the bursary level that you guys have created.

That's tremendous.

Brett Spencer: And we've been, the students this year have been making a podcast series for the United Nations.

So we've been making a podcast series for the UNFPA to highlight their work.

It's a five part series and the students have been working in teams of four to make that series, which we recorded recently.

They've been doing interviews remotely with, with people all over the world, and we're currently in the edit stage of that, and we're hoping to get that out quite shortly.

But to be able to do a project like that and you know, to make a podcast series for something as high profile as the UN, just our second year, has been fantastic.

Jennifer-Lee: And how do you end up getting like a partnership with the UN that you're allowed to do a project like that?

Brett Spencer: So I was in New York on holiday.

And my former BBC colleague, Lalita Taylor, who's quite brilliant, said, come meet the UNFPA for breakfast.

She wanted me to meet this head of innovation at the UN.

So we made that plan to meet for breakfast, and then my flight got canceled, so I missed it.

I got to New York and I was in arrivals, and the Lalita was in departures at the same time.

So she left and I said, well look, I'll just go and meet them without you.

So I turn up at the UNFPA very much in holiday mode and I walk into this room and I thought I was just gonna have coffee.

But there's like a whole load of people and there's people in the room and there's lots of people on Zoom as well.

This is like a proper meeting.

And they'd pitch this idea of doing this podcast project and I sort of had to adjust my brain from being on vacation to listening to a podcast project.

And so, yeah, I went to New York on holiday and accidentally came back with a podcast.

That was last June and now a year later we've made it.

So that's been very exciting and it was all down to pairing up the two of us, the two partners, and that podcast will be out hopefully in the next couple of months.

Jennifer-Lee: I can't wait to hear and that, that's an important thing that I think a lot of people can learn from for podcasting is it, it, is a lot about partnerships and finding those relationships, and that's how you can have a successful show or find different unique projects to work on.

Brett Spencer: Yeah, absolutely.

I think the pitching thing is one of the most important things that we teach on the course, how to pitch.

We have a session very early in the course where we ask the students to play some audio tour us that means something to them, if that makes sense, and talk about it something in their life.

And the bit that I always play, which sort of shocks people, 'cause it's very sweary, is I play the Alec Baldwin scene from Glengarry Glen Ross, in which he says, always be closing.

And I said, you don't realize why I'm showing you this now, but you will later in the year.

And then at various points later in the year, I will say to them, you know, always be closing.

Neil McPhedran: I like that.

That's great.

Brett Spencer: And I can't even remember what they're selling in that film.

It's all relevant to whatever you're trying to sell.

And if you're making a podcast or you want to make a podcast, at some point, you're gonna have to convince someone to let you do it, whether it's the company you're working for, whether it's a broadcaster, whether it's a platform.

At some point, you're probably gonna have to convince someone to let you make something unless you're making it under your own steam.

So I think that pitching thing is incredibly important.

Neil McPhedran: Even if it's your own project, you still gotta, there's still a point where you gotta pitch it at some point in time, right?

Whether or not it's just bringing on someone to interview even.

I like that.

That's, that's good advice.

Always be closing.

Jennifer-Lee: You can do social media, you can do paid advertising and all that stuff.

If you're not building relationships and doing cross-promotion or getting on different lists and sending your podcast out to different associations to get listeners and building those relationships, it's not gonna go anywhere unless you're just lucky that you put out one episode and it takes off.

But it is a really relationship building business.

Brett Spencer: A hundred percent.

It is all about relationships.

And you said something very important about partnerships there as well.

You know, partnering up with people, reaching out to people.

I've worked with lots of people that I might have met on Twitter or met at a conference or whatever.

So one of the most important things you do is have a coffee with somebody 'cause you never know what's gonna come from it.

I always advise people to reach out to people, particularly if you like what someone's doing.

You like their project.

If you like their podcast, it's always worth reaching out because you never know what might come of it.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.

Or you trek Brett down at his booth in London.

Because what happened was he wasn't there when I first went there and I said, where's this Brett?

Because Steven Goldstein told me I needed to talk to you.

And they're like, he went on a coffee break and then I like literally kept like circling the booth until you got there.

Brett Spencer: Steve and I were part of a little interesting panel actually, which, uh, we'd done the year before about opportunities for podcasters and there are so many now, whether it be, you know, the people on that panel myself, Transmission Roundhouse in London, who provide lots of schemes for, for young people in London Audio UK who have a lot of opportunities for young podcasters.

So, you know, creating that inroad, that ramp into the industry for people is incredibly important.

It's not just about what we're doing here on this course.

It's all about everybody else that's trying to bring on young podcasters on board and grow young podcasters, BBC do some fantastic things.

You probably know about BBC Audio Labs that help first time podcasters get their podcast published within the BBC.

So there's loads and loads of opportunities now for, for podcasters that are coming through.

Jennifer-Lee: I know that EPod is coming up in London.

Do you have anything to do with that or?

Brett Spencer: No.

And then one of my colleagues is going, I'm not going 'cause I've got other things to do.

We're in the thick of marking the final projects and stuff, so I'm not going to EPod.

I think the previously mentioned Carl Hartley is one of the people involved in that.

I have a question for you guys though, 'cause one we haven't talked about is video.

So I just wondered where you stand on the whole, the future is video question.

Neil McPhedran: That's a great question.

I, I was, uh, chatting with someone the other day who is, he's on the be beginning of his journey of starting a podcast.

About two minutes into the conversation he said, I've been doing all my research and I just keep seeing video, video, video.

I gotta do video.

And I said, I don't think you really need to.

I think there's a lot of positive things about video and I don't think it, it's the wrong way to go, but if you're starting out, it is easier to get your legs out underneath of you, get things going, with audio only.

Video just adds such a layer of complication from a cost perspective.

So much more to deal with from an editing perspective.

If it's an interview style show, which this guy was talking about, there's actually guests out there that aren't comfortable going on video and you can have a way better interview just even if, like we're looking at each other right now, but this is audio.

But it complicates everything so I'm quite torn.

We are deep into video with some of our podcasts we work with and deep into YouTube land, and I've got a call actually later today with Spotify.

We're in the Spotify Partner Program for one of the podcasts that we work with, and we're crossroads right now with that one of incorporating video.

And what that means with Spotify.

So I'm all into it.

But at the same time, I think if you're starting out, stick with audio to start with.

Jennifer-Lee: I think you have to be good on the mic.

I think you need to be able to carry people without images to be engaging first.

I think there is a place for video, celebrity podcast, people wanna see who the celebrity is.

When I was working in radio back in the day, social media was starting to come up and people were like, you know what would be great?

To film yourself in the booth.

I'm sorry, but that's boring.

That's me in a booth talking for 30 seconds about Britney Spears or whatever pop culture thing that I was talking about.

I think yes, video, YouTube, you have to be on with your podcast, but does it have to be video?

No.

Be good first at the podcast element because I will listen to you if you're good.

So have great storytelling first, and to your earlier point, Neil, not all guests, too, love them, but they're not all great on video and sometimes it scares them and it doesn't give the the most compelling story.

Neil McPhedran: I think the other thing I would add in there, Brett, is the beauty of podcasting is it's a multitasking medium.

I do my podcast listening while I go for a run in the forest, while I'm walking the dog, while I am cooking dinner for kids or something like that.

And I think research shows, and I think that we could sort of talk to anyone.

That's typically how we consume podcasts, not looking at them.

Yes, I know that there's a whole sort of chunk where people are using YouTube up on their TV and they've got it running and we're seeing Samsung televisions as sort of creeping up into the analytics and stuff like that.

But I wonder if they're using their TV, which is probably their sound system, and then they're doing other stuff while they're consuming it.

So I think that's the other side of it too.

I think there's a real tension there around really how people interact with the medium, which is multitasking.

And that's not gonna change.

I'm not, not while I'm running, like looking at my screen, even though it might have a video version of it as well too.

What do you think about all that, Brett?

Brett Spencer: Well, there's a lot to unpack.

Neil McPhedran: Opened up the box.

Brett Spencer: Yeah, I opened up the box.

So, I'm guilty of putting the first cameras in a BBC radio studio, which was back in 2005 where we visualized the first podcast that I launched, which was the Mark Kerr, the Cyber May Film Review.

And actually I've got an interesting edit, Mark and Simon talking to the actor Jason Isaacs from 2005, and it then morphed into them talking to him in 2024.

And you can see the difference in the look from a scrappy radio studio to a proper visualized podcast studio.

So, I believe in visualization as something I've talked about in a lot of places.

I did the presentation at Radio Days Europe last year.

I've been working with some other broadcasters on that.

But one thing that's interesting that you said about is people not wanting to see in the booth, because one of the big projects I worked on was something called 6 Music Live, where I arrived at 6 Music, which is like a indie music station here in the UK and wanted to do something with The Morning Show, which is presented by a presenter called Lauren Laverne, who's quite famous in the UK, and we took the show to BBC Maida Vale, which is where BBC records lots of live sessions, and we had lots of bands play, and we did this for five days in a row every six months.

When we started, we were sort of scrapping around for bands to do it the week before, and by the time we finished we had Paul McCartney and Robert Plant and Blow and all sorts.

It was amazing.

What was interesting is that while we visualized the bands playing and you could watch that sort of when you're connected TV or online, the bit that people were really interested in was seeing Lauren because we built sort of a little studio at  Maida Vale, and you could see her, she'd be holding signs up to the camera while the music was playing, or she'd be dancing in the studio or chatting to the guests off air.

And actually that was the bit that people found really interesting.

So I'm gonna slightly disagree on the not seeing, seeing inside the booth, but I think, Jennifer-Lee: No.

But she had people though.

Brett Spencer: A lot of the times she was just by herself, I'll send you, I've got a little compilation video, which I'll send you and you can have a look.

But it was the insight to people in what that show looks like 'cause I can't normally watch it.

So it was interesting to see her in action in the studio.

So I've done a lot around visualization in my career and continue to do so.

But in terms of visualization of podcasts, I think I sort of am slightly the opposite to where I'm in radio, which is it's really about resource.

A lot of people will come to me and say, I want to do a podcast.

And I'll say, okay, well, what's your plan?

And they'll tell me all the things they want to do.

They're gonna write it, they're gonna record it, they're gonna edit it, are they're gonna publish it, they're gonna do social media around it.

They're gonna, they give me a whole plan of what they're gonna do.

To which I will say, well, what sort of time have you got?

And they're like, I've got like a couple of hours on a Wednesday morning.

And what they've just described to me is basically two and a half days work.

You know what I mean?

And they're really shocked by that, that it's two and a half days work.

Now, throw video into the mix, then that's even more work.

So I think a video for podcasting is great if you are a big business and you can sustain it and you have the resource.

I think the rush for everyone to do video is potentially a bit of a misstep because as we've said already on this podcast, it's 50% making the thing.

It's 50% getting people to listen to it.

If you're spending 50% making the thing and then you are also making the thing again in video, there's even less time to be able to get people to listen to it.

I would say video's great if you're a big company and you've got the resource and, or you've got big names doing your podcast or big celebrities doing your podcast.

But generally I would always advise people to spend more time on the 50% of getting people to listen to it than worried less about getting people to watch it early on.

Neil McPhedran: I do like how you use the term visualize though, visualization.

I think that's an interesting sort of way to think about it that makes it, I think it sort of opens it up a bit more than it just being a video.

To me there's more in what you're saying there, how to visualize what the show is.

Brett Spencer: Absolutely.

Visualizing radio and making a video of something, I think are two different things.

So if you're visualizing what you are doing, that's obviously gonna be less arduous than if you're actually just trying to make a television version of what you're doing, if that makes sense.

So I've always focused on the visualization of the content and the radio or audio elements must still be the priority, if that makes sense.

That's still the thing.

Neil McPhedran: I think that's great.

Jennifer-Lee: I agree with that.

I, it's a good place to wrap up because I feel like we could talk to Brett for another a few hours.

Neil McPhedran: No, I think that's a good spot to end on for this conversation.

That's great.

So thank you so much for joining us today, Brett.

This has been a really interesting conversation and congratulations on an amazing program, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it evolves and hearing more about some of the amazing students that are gonna be coming out of the program.

I think we're gonna start to see more and more at the university level, see more and more of these kind of programs that people are gonna start to do.

So if you're okay, you might have people reach out to you.

Brett Spencer: That's fine.

I'm very happy if people wanna reach out and ask me, particularly if they live in Vancouver.

Jennifer-Lee: He's willing to work with universities and colleges in Vancouver.

Brett Spencer: In Vancouver.

Neil McPhedran: Well you got UBC and SFU, so there you go.

So excellent.

Jennifer-Lee: There we go.

Neil McPhedran: Thank you so much.

Jennifer-Lee: Thank you so much for having me on.

It's great to meet you and put faces to the voices, even though other people can't see you.

I have to tell you, dear listener, before we recorded this podcast, we were talking about cats for a good 10 minutes, and that audio was probably as interesting as the hour we've just done.

Neil McPhedran: Thank you so much.

Brett Spencer: Thank you.

Neil McPhedran: Okay, Jen, another amazing conversation.

I really loved chatting with Brett, especially liked his love for Vancouver.

We definitely gotta get him here helping to add a such an incredible program.

Wouldn't it be great to see something like that at UBC or SFU or, or BCIT where you went.

Jennifer-Lee: Or my old program BCIT I've gotta hook 'em up.

I, I see this, I, this makes me so excited.

I want Brett to come here and like, change the schooling for broadcasting so, you know, we're gonna hook 'em up.

So I feel very inspired.

Neil McPhedran: Plus just that British accent.

It just, you know, adds a layer of sophistication.

Jennifer-Lee: It does.

We've been talking to a lot of people from London lately, and I was like, I love it.

And being in the conference, it's just such a different conference when everybody has a British accent.

It's the best.

Neil McPhedran: I think, more and more, and we've got a couple coming up of others in Europe and other Canadians that we're gonna be talking to in some coming episodes, I'm really excited to be reaching broadly around the world and just sort of exploring what's going on in academic podcasting, university podcasting.

And it's just really amazing to see sort of what's happening on campuses and in academic research.

But why don't we just end it there.

That was such a good conversation.

I'm not sure we could add anything more.

Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, there we go.

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