[SPEAKER_00]: you deserve more than feeling constantly fried to a crisp.

[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Fried, the burnout podcast, where you get the understanding, the community, and the information you need to end burnout for good.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host Kate Dunovan, and all of my work focuses on hashtag ending burnout culture.

[SPEAKER_00]: Outside the pod, you'll find me on stages at conferences, giving keynotes, in offices, providing corporate trainings, doing virtual VIP one-on-one work, or supporting our group program on Friday that is run by my right-hand woman Sarah Vosen.

[SPEAKER_00]: Both Sarah and I have been through burnout and came out stronger, happier, and more fulfilled.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we want that post burnout growth for you too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, fried fam.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's Sarah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am back today with a real coaching session in real time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Today I'll be guiding Heather through a challenge in her burnout recovery.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you get to listen.

[SPEAKER_02]: Why are we doing this?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because we see it as a win-win win.

[SPEAKER_02]: The person being coached gets support.

[SPEAKER_02]: you get to learn through their experience, and I get to show you what I do best.

[SPEAKER_02]: You'll get to see that vulnerability is strength, that help is available, and that change is possible, one small step at a time.

[SPEAKER_02]: If this resonates with you, please share this with a friend, and leave us a review.

[SPEAKER_02]: Your engagement helps us reach more people, and it helps us and burn up culture, one personal recovery at a time.

[SPEAKER_02]: So let's get into it.

[SPEAKER_02]: thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we spoke for a little bit prior to hitting record and fried fam.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to give you a little summary of what Heather and I talked about.

[SPEAKER_02]: So she's been struggling for a while with burnout.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's on loan from one organization to another and the organization that she's [SPEAKER_02]: Not a good fit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sounds like it's just not a good fit.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in the past, she used to be in a situation like this, she could work hard, push hard, you know, go 110% do a good job do a fantastic job and be seen be validated, be given opportunities and.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's not happening as easily in this place as it used to, one because she's burnt out, but two also because of the sort of structure and culture at this new organization that she's in.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she's realizing, it's not working.

[SPEAKER_02]: Be, I don't have 110% to give to this situation.

[SPEAKER_02]: And three, [SPEAKER_02]: Even if I was praised and validated and given opportunities, new possibilities, I don't even think I want them, I don't think I could handle them because it's too much for my current situation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Does this sound, am I summarizing this correctly, Heather?

[SPEAKER_02]: You all definitely.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: And honestly, before this or like the beginning of this summary, Heather said to me, actually, what I think I need most is help admitting that I'm burnt out because doing so sparks a lot of shame.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she knows she needs a break, but it's also extremely scary to take a break [SPEAKER_02]: do you want to share what those reasons are?

[SPEAKER_02]: What makes it scary?

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's kind of probably a mid-diffy in a way.

[SPEAKER_03]: Secondly, there's also kind of financial considerations that have to be kind of considered than career development as well.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think something [SPEAKER_03]: where I want to be at the moment in terms of career.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I feel like I still need to push hard and keep pushing and to take a break might mean I lack even further behind.

[SPEAKER_03]: Then I want to be, it might be like realizing actually, maybe I've not chosen the career path that's for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then that would cause even more confusion.

[SPEAKER_03]: And these are super hard.

[SPEAKER_03]: I guess there's that sense of just being stuck like I feel stuck in the burnout right now, but I don't know, it's a manageable, stuckness if that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_03]: Whereas, but is it manageable?

[SPEAKER_03]: In the sense that, no, it's not manageable.

[SPEAKER_02]: it's no, because it seems like it's getting worse from what you were saying.

[SPEAKER_02]: What I didn't elaborate on is you were telling a story like, okay, maybe if this isn't going to work in this organization, maybe I should interview other places and the people the interviewers are saying, hey, you don't really seem that enthusiastic about this position.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, the reality is of course I'm not, but you didn't realize that it was coming [SPEAKER_02]: coming through you're so clearly that you really don't have enthusiasm, maybe for this or anything right now, because that's what people who are burnt out feel like.

[SPEAKER_03]: And even just kind of getting to that stage of actually being in that interview and like trying to prepare beforehand is very hard to even prepare, retain things, come across as confident.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's all a struggle and obviously [SPEAKER_03]: me to break.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let's start at what I see to be square one, which is help admitting your burnt out because accepting that your burnt out is a great way to meet yourself where you are so that you can actually take steps from that place and start your recovery for real.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it sounds like you know you're burnt out, but actually like speaking it out loud is what is scary.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe it's already sparking shame within you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's just like, it's too uncomfortable, I don't know what to do with it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I also feel like I'm like default position is just to push, push free, push free, push free.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how to, [SPEAKER_03]: I said it, I don't know how to do anything else and to do, to stop.

[SPEAKER_03]: We'll bake everything, cut it crumble, everything will fall apart.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's just how I show on the inside of this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I remember that feeling.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was like, I can't stop or I'll die or the world will crumble or I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I just don't know what we'll have to do at school.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, it's just all gonna go, like, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you can't know what will happen until you stop.

[SPEAKER_02]: Interestingly enough, for me, it was the most relieving.

[SPEAKER_02]: One of the most relieving things I experienced in Burnup recovery was to realize that when I stopped working and nobody needed me, that it was the best feeling ever.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, you know, that's not a great feeling when you want work.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when you are needing a true break, and you get, [SPEAKER_02]: you know it took a little time of course because there's a transition from pushing pushing pushing and going going to taking a break or at least slowing down and recognizing the effects of that on your life.

[SPEAKER_02]: So [SPEAKER_02]: I mentioned before, and Kate's mentioned many times, a part of the reason this podcast exists is to eliminate the shame, blame, and guilt that comes along with burning out for so many people.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's very common to feel shame.

[SPEAKER_02]: And shame is feeling like you are a bad person.

[SPEAKER_02]: Guilt is, you feel like you did a bad thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Shame is I feel like I'm a bad person.

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, that feels awful.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're not a bad person because you burnt out.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're trying to fight you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have such good intentions.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're only trying to do good, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I doing a great job.

[SPEAKER_02]: doing good work, moving up the ladder, you know, pleasing the people around you.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's no bad, there's no malintention in that and no need for shame.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know that's easier said than done.

[SPEAKER_03]: They get so so kind of like, you're constantly trying to prove to yourself, [SPEAKER_03]: I think for me it's myself, but a lot maybe it's others as well, but you're good enough.

[SPEAKER_03]: You can do it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then it's just like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Actually, if you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Then maybe it's that admission that, oh, maybe you're not good enough, you know, like if you don't keep pushing maybe as I know, right, whatever it's not about.

[SPEAKER_02]: not enough worth or value or like goodness.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's about not enough capacity to do what is being realistically unread rather unreadlessly expected of you, whether that's from an organization or from yourself, your own internal barometer of what's good and productive.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's what I find to be true because the people who end up here with Kate and I, [SPEAKER_02]: they are high achieving people you have achieved a lot it's not that you haven't achieved anything you're just really tired from what you achieve and you can't keep up the pace the pace you've been going at is unsustainable so that's a capacity issue not a value or worth or good enough type [SPEAKER_03]: colour one from that.

[SPEAKER_03]: It being a capacity issue.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think I read just like one of the kind of, I guess, newsletters.

[SPEAKER_03]: That was, when I, I think it was this week or even last week and it really kind of resonated with me about, you know, knowing if it's a capacity issue or capability issues, not like you're not capable.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just that right now you don't have the capacity.

[SPEAKER_03]: And like [SPEAKER_03]: Because yeah, I guess that's what it is at the moment, but somehow I kind of also feel to myself, like, as you have a capacity issue, you're not people.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, it's a bit late.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's still a value judgment on it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like you should be able to have the capacity.

[SPEAKER_03]: going to now, like, what's happened?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I would argue for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have, but less and less over time, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: To you, it feels like a dramatic suddenly, I can't.

[SPEAKER_02]: But really, you've been decreasing your capacity slowly over time.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now you just really can't keep up with the current workload.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a slow decline.

[SPEAKER_02]: This kind of reminds me, my mom had a, [SPEAKER_02]: Like a note pad that was stuck to the refrigerator with a magnet when we were kids and it was a little duck on it and it said the hurryer I go the behinder I get And I always thought I was just would read that over and over and I do get it the hurry I go the hurryer I go the behinder I get and it was a little duck just you know paddling his feet as fast as he could go [SPEAKER_02]: But now I get it, does that, does that resonate for you?

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like that's where we are when we're in this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh my god, like, it's like, you're drowning area.

[SPEAKER_02]: You just can't keep up, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: You're worried about falling behind because you feel like you weren't even where you should be at your age, in your career.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, and if you take a break, you'll only be further behind.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, there's no way you can get ahead from this place with this capacity, with this mental space, [SPEAKER_02]: heart space with this cool capacity, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's like it's all kind of I don't know, so like having in or like crumbling and it's like you can't stop it and yeah, right that's scary of course and it's sort of on purpose because there's only one way to stop you [SPEAKER_02]: And it's this either caving in of this feeling emotionally of like I just can't do it anymore or there's a physical caving in like a chronic disease or or a heart attack or stroke or some major health disease condition sparking up.

[SPEAKER_02]: something big usually has to happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's rare.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes people will catch themselves in this burnout before they completely get fried and they aren't managed to turn the ship around earlier but most people.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is why Kate and I have said many times like we're not actually sure if you can prevent burnout because it seems like the high achieving spirit, the amount of [SPEAKER_02]: And until that will basically get sort of like sucked out of you from pushing and pushing and pushing, there's no stopping you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's this like feeling of caving in or whatever the experience is, this rock bottom kind of like, oh, god, I just can't keep going, feeling that gets our attention finally to do it differently.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it just also affects you.

[SPEAKER_03]: few of life in general.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like it takes over like everything, you know, it's not just kind of like like I'm questioning my whole life and what I've been and how I've operated for life and was it even worth it?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like I've done all I knew how to do and still not enough and like where do you go from here like [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's the it's sort of the quintessential existential like midlife crisis, but for real.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, baby.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, not cliche.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's happening for real for good reason.

[SPEAKER_02]: It could mean that this is not the career that's meant for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or it just could be that your burnt out and burnout is your exhausted, your cynical and you no longer feel effective.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that can return.

[SPEAKER_02]: I thought I wasn't going to be an acupuncturist anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to hold space for people in healing capacity anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had to give up that idea completely for a while and get my recovery going and start to, like once I started to come back to life, [SPEAKER_02]: And I did a different job, which is waiting tables.

[SPEAKER_02]: I waited tables for a while, because I was like, you know what?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm, you know, in funny, because that's a server position.

[SPEAKER_02]: I still was in, you know, serving people, but I was serving them lunch and dinner instead of, you know, helping people come back to life.

[SPEAKER_02]: But nonetheless, it, [SPEAKER_02]: It did come back eventually for me, I chose you know what I do still want to I want to go back to what I'm doing and actually I started coaching with Kate after that so that's a new addition to my career.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I ended up coming back to this like essentially holding space for people to heal to cover.

[SPEAKER_02]: either from burnout or other health conditions that they have going on, not everybody does come back to the same career after burnout and it's too early to know you can't know that now today in the state that you're in that information tends to come back to people organically over time once you [SPEAKER_02]: It's a five month program and about one, three, once we've done a lot of clearing away of resentment and just baggage and other stuff and you've created some boundaries and you started to restore yourself a bit.

[SPEAKER_02]: We do a values exercise where you feel into your heart and in that place, people tend to get really clear about what is there, what they value and what they want their priorities are and what they want to do with those, with that information.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but it takes a little time.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you can't answer the question right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, is this the wrong career for me?

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I will, um, not the question for this place that you're in right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you're saying it's really good stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I take some notes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, don't worry.

[SPEAKER_02]: You'll get to hear this again.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, so this stuff is landing for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like a hit in some key points.

[SPEAKER_02]: What's coming up for you based on what we're talking about?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think just like what you said, like you're not in the place right now to make that decision.

[SPEAKER_03]: Let's do whatever, you know, this is the right career for you or not.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because looking back through my, like I guess burnout lens, I would say, giving it my all done all I knew how to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was never enough.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not enough.

[SPEAKER_03]: I need to find someone because I think also just as human beings, you want to be in that place where you're just blowing, you're just giving and it's just ease and you know what I'm swaying about a bit, but you know, just absolutely, I was actually just telling the grads group about this yesterday.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's like a principal in Chinese medicine or like a [SPEAKER_02]: The main principle is basically there's this phrase and it's I'm paraphrasing, but it's it says where there is flow, there is health, where there is stagnation, there is disease, something like that, all living things want there like to be in the flow is like ease and bliss, right, we feel stuck, it's like we stop growing we stop living, doesn't feel good.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, if you've ever been walking through the forest and you see like a babbling brook and it has just right amount of water and it's just got that perfect little kind of twinkly bubbling sound, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's hitting the rocks, all the like the grass on the side of the little brook is happy.

[SPEAKER_02]: There aren't any like stagnant places of algae, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just like everything's happy.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's probably butterflies and birds chirping, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a lovely place.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ben Green, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say then you keep walking and then you end up by a raging river and it's overflowing its banks and it's loud and it's terrifying, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't feel good too because you're like, that's too much water for this river.

[SPEAKER_02]: The banks are overflowing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, but it doesn't have integrity.

[SPEAKER_02]: The the walls are crumbling.

[SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't feel good, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So you keep walking and you come across another little tiny stream.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say, [SPEAKER_02]: it's like, but it's like, oh, there's not enough water in this stream.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's just a tiny little trickle and there's some stagnant ponds that are growing some green and there's like bugs and goopy stuff and and you're like, oh, this poor little, this poor little stream doesn't have enough water.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like when we are in the kind of honor way to burn out and we're going going pushing pushing pushing we're kind of like a wildfire blazing another way to think of that is we're like that river rushing and right so much is happening and so much is going on but it doesn't it's still not right right you're like oh this is not this is not in balance this is not in flow yeah and then when you keep keep pushing [SPEAKER_02]: It's like you run out of water and now you're this streambed with this tiny trickle running through it and you're like, oh, that's not enough either or like now I'm on the other opposite end of the spectrum and now I don't have enough and that doesn't feel good either so coming back to life is like trying to collect whatever resources you need to feel like that to restore your water flow would have this little babbling broke with the happy serene ecosystem all around it.

[SPEAKER_02]: that's what that's what all humans want that's what the natural world wants that's what we want as humans within the natural world yeah that's a burn-off recovery is about to me stopping like yeah stopping enough to recognize what do I need to restore my ecosystem [SPEAKER_02]: What have I been missing?

[SPEAKER_02]: What have I been draining from my ecosystem or you're using too much of them?

[SPEAKER_02]: My ecosystem, how can I refill it?

[SPEAKER_02]: How can I restore it to its natural balance?

[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think?

[SPEAKER_02]: If taking that metaphor and feeling into yourself, what comes up?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a break, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's just really what I just thought.

[SPEAKER_03]: Which is just, I guess, for me, sounds weird, just a kind of, yeah, [SPEAKER_03]: And just pause for a bit like, and maybe you buy a bit, I mean, a little bit longer than a bit actually, because sometimes it's like, even when you do have like a week off or whatever, it's just still not enough.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think what's coming up is that I do need more time than that I probably want to admit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: I remember when I first stopped working.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was during the pandemic, so that it was locked down.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it was like, I couldn't work, but I was trying to reinvent myself and teach some things online.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was just realizing I cannot keep going.

[SPEAKER_02]: And my best friend who was my co-teaser at the time, she said, I was like, I'm just gonna take two weeks off.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let me just take two weeks off and I'll come back and I'm sure I'll feel refreshed.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she was like, take a month.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, whoa, that's ridiculous.

[SPEAKER_02]: But at the end of that month, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm not ready.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then it was like another month or by and I was like, I'm still not ready.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it took me several months to feel up for it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how long it'll take you, you know, but I think that's also another fear as well.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like, if you start, like, everything's not kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, like, and then, well, there are there's a million different ways to [SPEAKER_02]: there's as many people.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's many ways to recover from burnout as there are burnt out people.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so you get to take whatever path is meant for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: You might just need to break a pause.

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't know how long, but we do know as vacation, just a vacation length of time off, doesn't act, doesn't often help people that are really burnt out.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just not enough time to really unwind.

[SPEAKER_02]: not everybody can take a break and many people have recovered from burnout while they're still working.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's possible, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm hearing you say a few times now that you just know you need a break.

[SPEAKER_02]: You at least need a pause to reflect and sort of get your bearings and maybe assess the situation.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I think I even feel like I kind of [SPEAKER_03]: know a number as well, but it's also the, the, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's lots of fear, I guess, and shame also, because it's like, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_03]: I also have this mindset, like, which is a wrong, so wrong mindset, but it's like, if you're not working, what you do, like you need to be productive, you've got to keep the, you're wasting time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, so I'm like a true breakout person, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right, of course it's scary.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is scary.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when you're burnt out, fear and tense fear is a symptom of burnout.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh well, okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so it's like it's scary, but it's like right now where you're at in this situation.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's scary.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not working for you, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: To be working in this situation in this exact situation isn't working for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's scary because you can't keep up.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, there's a lot about it that doesn't feel good, but also completely taking a break feels scary too because what will you do and how will you feel and how will you make money and, you know, how will you get back?

[SPEAKER_02]: So fear is involved either way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the question is, well, one of the questions is, what will help you, because we can only do one thing at a time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you don't do one thing at a time.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you know, like, let's go back to that ecosystem metaphor, you know that you are off, right, your ecosystem's off a little bit.

[SPEAKER_02]: Is there one?

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, well, maybe a lot up right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I stand corrected.

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: What's, but let's, we can't just go like bippity, bippity, boo, and turn [SPEAKER_02]: the funky ecosystem into a perfectly balanced one.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wish wish wish we could do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But since we can't what do your insights tell you is one thing that you could do to start to restore your ecosystem?

[SPEAKER_03]: I think internally I'm being told like it's definitely the the time away at least I think.

[SPEAKER_03]: three months is a good number, but even saying that out loud, but it's like terrifying to me.

[SPEAKER_03]: It sounds weird, I do.

[SPEAKER_03]: But it sounds very real.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what do you need to do?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, who you would need to talk to about that to do a three month leave or a leave of any kind?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, could probably speak to like management and things like that, but then there's the idea of [SPEAKER_03]: the practicalities of that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's probably because it's quite an extensive time, it's more going to be like more, it'll probably be like unpaid.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then also it's like, is your job guaranteed when you come back, those kind of things that you have to kind of think about.

[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I know I could speak to a management about it, but then also it's kind of like, are there going to be Forbes that you have to feel it or the what do I've got in the form?

[SPEAKER_03]: bit with that when it comes, but there's just all these things.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's why we do have to take it one step at a time.

[SPEAKER_02]: As it comes, not not let the title wave of all the next steps hit you all at once.

[SPEAKER_02]: We just want one step.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you are getting clear or today that you're like, I just do need a break.

[SPEAKER_02]: I need a break of some kind.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the first step.

[SPEAKER_02]: find out some more information about that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ask right person at work.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it's HR you're in the UK so that I'm not, I'm not exactly sure of who that would be.

[SPEAKER_02]: It might also be that you need to see your doctor too and get some validation medically to support a leave.

[SPEAKER_03]: I actually have got it, and I, like, have spoken to, but it's also that shame that comes up, and I'm just like, yeah, I'll get back to you on that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, because my doctor's quite supportive, but it's also just like, I don't know, yes, let me in it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think you would have the same shame if you were diagnosed with another, let's say chronic health condition or something like cancer.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I know.

[SPEAKER_02]: But just to compare, honestly, I think burnout is just as valid.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not a diagnosable condition, at least not in the ICD, diagnostic bulk or whatever list of codes, but it is a valid health condition that requires recovery.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just saying that to validate that you are sick enough to get help and get treatment [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it is a good point that you raised because earlier on in the conversation, I think you referenced, you said something along the lines of, sometimes people have to stop from burnout physically, like it physically takes over that kind of thing, or you just kind of think you said, or you realize that you're burnout or you, so you physically have to stop or you just realize that you're burnout so I've gone on those lines.

[SPEAKER_03]: And even when you said that, [SPEAKER_03]: in my mind, I thought, will at least, if something stopped me, it has not me stopping.

[SPEAKER_03]: If that makes sense, like, there's a way you can kind of sound very weird, but a way you can kind of, like, hide behind that and it's a bit like it was not my fault.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just, like, I can't, like, whereas, I guess what we're talking about now is me kind of [SPEAKER_03]: every one that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I've reached, I have reached my limit.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was just like you say if it's like a serious diagnosis or something like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of, it's received in a different way.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of like, oh, sorry, that happened to you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Whereas this could also be like, maybe put it on yourself or maybe you just can't handle it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I hear you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's that that is interesting to consider and I can't remember now if I said this while we were recording or before we have record, but there are it's most often because nobody wants to burn out, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't have intentions to burn out.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it is so our unconscious coping mechanisms that are created by our body, [SPEAKER_02]: in response to a set of circumstances or a collection of circumstances.

[SPEAKER_02]: to cope, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Our bodies like, well, this is what I have to do to cope.

[SPEAKER_02]: I need to do 110% in order to get external validation to get the praise to get the boost and the bump up, because that's the only way I know how, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And we do that until it doesn't work.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not actually our fund.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was our body and our nervous system doing the absolute best thing it knew how to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: at the time to keep you safe and it did keep you safe for a while.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just that we're not meant to live in chronic stress mode.

[SPEAKER_02]: for longer than moments at a time, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: We're meant to be like, oh, no, I almost got hit by a car.

[SPEAKER_02]: But then you're supposed to be able to like, unwind from that and be in non-stress mode and get back to life, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But life these days, especially for people who have this tendency to be in stress mode, which is created from your earlier in life circumstances, most often, [SPEAKER_02]: you don't have a choice.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's unconscious.

[SPEAKER_02]: Your brain is choosing it for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you can't.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can't blame it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's really trying to keep you safe.

[SPEAKER_02]: Does that change how you feel about it?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it goes.

[SPEAKER_03]: It goes up.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when you admit burnout, I understand.

[SPEAKER_02]: I also blamed myself at first.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I'm a healthcare practitioner.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then Kate was like, listen, it isn't your fault.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I took me a while to digest that and believe it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when we admit burnout and we consciously choose to recover, get on a recovery path, we can take conscious control of that story in our heads and be like, listen, [SPEAKER_02]: unconsciously but i'm going to get out of it consciously i'm going to take control of what i can i'm going to do what i can to empower myself in my choices so i make the ones that are really good for me now and i'm going to get out of that unconscious mode and create the life that i want does that change how you feel about burnout recovery or being burned out [SPEAKER_03]: Is it unconscious?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I, my body has learned to do this or I have learned to do this to, to cope, I guess, and survive.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, like, natural survival instincts in a way.

[SPEAKER_02]: total yeah natural survival instincts they just they're just not meant to be on all the time and you got stuck on you got stuck in the on the stress mode position and it's just not sustainable for any human it's not sustainable for any human any human stuck in stress mode will burn out eventually I think that's why so many people are burning out right now right the reasons [SPEAKER_02]: study.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was at 66% of people are claiming they're burnt out right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: Might have even been higher than that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why I'm forgetting that number right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's a lot of people burning out right now because of the unrealistic expectations.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that puts us in.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not safe.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is unrealistic.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is unsustainable.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then we're just hurrying and hurrying and getting more and more behind and [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, moving forward, your unconscious brain will still determine what's safe for you and what isn't.

[SPEAKER_02]: We can't change that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, there's a lot of consciousness that we can put towards our recovery path, finding some compassion for ourselves instead of judgment.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like bringing consciousness around your capacity and how that's different than your capability, like you mentioned, right, moving consciously within our capacity so that we can start to rebuild our capacity slowly growing it over time and then creating boundaries that protect it so that you're not just leaking out your energy from the moment you create it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you can come back to life.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can collect the resources you need to make your, like, easeful, peaceful, serene ecosystem in your body and in your life, you know, that's like, I know, that's like the opposite of burnt out.

[SPEAKER_02]: There might be too much to think about that, but I saw your body relax when you were like, oh, right, you were supposed to be in your sleep.

[SPEAKER_02]: I were like, oh, yeah, that sounds real good.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, we can keep that in mind as a, [SPEAKER_02]: as a goal, as a remembrance of what vitality feels like and takes steps to get you back there.

[SPEAKER_02]: So how do you feel about your one step of talking to someone about what it looks like to get on a break on a leave of some kind?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think I can do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Think I can do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any [SPEAKER_01]: that we need to address?

[SPEAKER_03]: Just thinking about what it involves in terms of like, do I have to, like, how much do I have to kind of go into detail?

[SPEAKER_03]: And if I do kind of go into detail, what that might?

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, because I'm guessing if you have to take some leave or some extended period of what we want to know, why?

[SPEAKER_03]: What you can do, especially if you want your job to be still there.

[SPEAKER_03]: when you come back, or maybe that's not even an option, I don't know, and so.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe I start asking questions.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ask gets you information before you start declaring anything.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Before you start just like, what would it, what, you know, what is it look like to be on a short term disability leave or a medical leave or what does that look like?

[SPEAKER_02]: And whatever your doctor decided or diagnosed you with is probably the thing that you'll end up talking to them about.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know burnout is more accepted in in the in Europe and in UK.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you might have an easier time with that than someone in America.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that are considered valid reasons for taking a break, but don't let the giant list of what might need to happen, prevent you from taking the one step you need to take now to even get the ball rolling.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's so tempting, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So our brains want to figure it all out or that fear spiral just goes, but a little bit a little bit, but one step at a time.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then with the new data you collected in that moment, you can make a new step, but don't try to make a list of a thousand steps before you take one.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, definitely.

[SPEAKER_03]: And also I think what's coming up is actually kind of try to use the support that you have, like I said, like my doctor's very supportive and quite, [SPEAKER_03]: encouraging, but then I feel like, if I can, I do, it's almost like that admitting, I don't know, to people and organizations that you kind of just don't have it, I think that's what.

[SPEAKER_03]: say much but still have my job well I get back and get juicy what I mean was yeah like it's kind of like I'm choosing to kind of yeah don't want to admit defeat like burnout has got me I don't want to admit it because I'm having a hard time admitting it to myself and then to kind of admit [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's the difficulty for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: Love you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, it was hard for me, too.

[SPEAKER_02]: It definitely was.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I just started, I had to start talking about it with people that I felt safe with to start.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you have talked with your doctor, your doctor's supportive.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's helpful.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if there's anyone else in your life that you could talk to personally.

[SPEAKER_02]: And...

[SPEAKER_02]: And or the fried community, if you want to hop in the Facebook group or come to the office hours that we offer every couple weeks, I do think that speaking with people who get it more than more than just me, you know, like the like the common listeners, like people that are out in the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: Help no spallity oh yeah, I'm not the only one struggling with this and it's not defeat it's a re it's like a reset point it's a it's a turning point it's like a it's a fork in the road Right, it's not like oh I failed it's like oh yay look that path wasn't working for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let me try this one over here And so you know, but it takes that reframe of like this is an opportunity not a failure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah [SPEAKER_02]: That's why we talk about a self-compassion practice as well, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because there's a part of us that's like, oh, you failed.

[SPEAKER_02]: But is that useful?

[SPEAKER_02]: You didn't fail.

[SPEAKER_02]: Look at how much you achieved on your way here.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just not working for you now.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that isn't a complete failure.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, and it's not your fault.

[SPEAKER_02]: It just requires a different way of looking at it.

[SPEAKER_02]: What you are just encountering now.

[SPEAKER_02]: it's possible to shift it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it may take some time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wish I could have snapped my fingers and changed your mind just instantaneously, but it seems like that's not happening in this moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's worth continuing to speak to yourself kindly about what you have accomplished.

[SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: what's not working for you and giving yourself and give yourself permission to do it differently, do find a way that does work for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you can find success in your the kind of success that is for Heather Heather's definition of success.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, not society's definition, not your parents definition, not your boss's definition, your definition of success for you at this time in [SPEAKER_02]: set of circumstances and needs.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I agree.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just needs a kind of, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I can see that.

[SPEAKER_02]: What's that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like let it percolate, let it percolate and see what else comes up if you need further permission, validation, send me a note.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll send you this episode so you can listen to it again before it comes for it airs.

[SPEAKER_02]: You let me know if you need to be reminded again, okay?

[SPEAKER_02]: We'll happily do that because I believe, wholeheartedly, that you are not a failure.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have not failed.

[SPEAKER_02]: You just found a set of circumstances that don't work for you and you get to course correct and find some ones that do.

[SPEAKER_02]: until you find yourself back in that useful serene ecosystem within yourself and around yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've done it.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can do it too.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want that for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what about for me to?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I will believe it can be so for you until you can believe it for yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: You are welcome.

[SPEAKER_02]: fried fam.

[SPEAKER_02]: Are you also having a hard time believing what's possible for you that you can also have this kind of serene and beautiful and balanced ecosystem within you and around you in your life?

[SPEAKER_02]: Know that Kate and I believe that you can.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's what we're here for.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's what we did as acupunctious and that's what we're doing now as coaches and speakers that are leading you back [SPEAKER_02]: and the messages from your body and your heart to lead you to what's best for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, until next time, thank you so much Heather for being here for being honest and vulnerable and sharing your story with us today.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate it.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're welcome.