[SPEAKER_00]: You deserve more than feeling constantly fried to a crisp.

[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Fried, the burnout podcast, where you get the understanding, the community, and the information you need to end burnout for good.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host Kate Dunovan, and all of my work focuses on hashtag ending burnout culture.

[SPEAKER_00]: Outside the pod, you'll find me on stages at conferences, giving keynotes, in offices providing corporate trainings, doing virtual VIP one-on-one work, or supporting our group program on Friday that is run by my right-hand woman Sarah Vosin.

[SPEAKER_00]: Both Sarah and I have been through burnout and came out stronger, happier and more fulfilled.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we want that post burnout growth for you too.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, fried fam.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's Sarah and I'm back with this new thing that we're trying, which is real coaching in real time on the podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll be guiding someone through a challenge that is happening in their burnout recovery and you'll get to listen in.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why are we doing this?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because we see it as a win-win win.

[SPEAKER_01]: The person being coached gets support.

[SPEAKER_01]: You get to learn through their experience, and I get to show you what I do best, which is coaching, facilitating, space holding, without sort of the cringe of traditional marketing, which is a little harder for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, [SPEAKER_01]: In this process, I trust that you will see that vulnerability is strength, that help is available and that changes possible one step at a time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if this resonates, what you hear today resonates with you, please share this episode with a friend and leave us a review.

[SPEAKER_01]: your engagement, your feedback helps us reach more people and helps more people get out of burnout.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we all want that, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's how we end burnout culture for all of us.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's get into it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Today we are talking to Kate.

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Friday, Kate.

[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, hello.

[SPEAKER_03]: Nice to be here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Glad to have you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for sharing today.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that said, tell us about this loop that you're stuck in.

[SPEAKER_01]: Give us some circumstances and backstory.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, sure.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I would say I burnt out about two years ago, so two years ago was when I crashed basically, but it all started, let's say three years ago when I started, I moved abroad because I got a new job.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then after a few months, where everything seems seemed fine, but I started getting different symptoms, like I got bronchitis, and then it just didn't get better.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it was a little better, but not really.

[SPEAKER_03]: and you know going to doctors and everything seems fine and then I got COVID and sinus infection and like cold after cold and during that period I started discovering like work.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I didn't realize it at first but like I didn't want to believe also you know that's my body is telling me something but I started discovering that it might be the problem at work because it was kind of a toxic [SPEAKER_03]: environment, yeah, so then after a year of like different symptoms and just not feeling okay physically because you know mentally I felt fine I was doing therapy I've been doing therapy for like five years now, you know, so I think I just thought mentally I'm fine, which means I'm fine, you know, I'm just like somehow not getting healthy [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, then after about a year of that, I got a super easy task to do, and then I got a panic attack, and at that point I was like, okay, I think, this is not okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is enough, and I went on sick leave, and then I kind of crashed where the exhaustion came, and like, yeah, really low energy also, and kind of, the puzzle kind of came together, and I was like, okay, I think I burnt out.

[SPEAKER_03]: And since then, it feels like a transformation is happening.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it feels like it's every part of my life.

[SPEAKER_03]: So one aspect is physical where I'm still not okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: I still have pains and like headaches and my lungs are sometimes still acting up while everything seems to be okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: But also through that, [SPEAKER_03]: I went through a lot of different things, so I moved back home, which in itself was a big thing for me, because it felt a little bit like a failure, because I am a perfectionist and high achieving, and all of that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like I don't want to do anymore what I did.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I worked in marketing before and still like obviously now I came back and I have ten plus years of experience and obviously people are calling me to do projects in that area, but I feel like I want something new and I'm still not also clear on what to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it just, it feels like so many changes.

[SPEAKER_03]: And recently, it feels like, you know, I'm just like in a loop, like I wrote when I applied for this.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't, I can feel, it feels like I've tried so many things.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I've done nervous system, regulations, that vagus nerve.

[SPEAKER_03]: And trying to find something new, but that didn't work out.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, through this process of, I don't know, trying to change things, but somehow it seems like nothing is really working.

[SPEAKER_03]: So then I'm losing trust in myself and my intuition and you know, and then like constantly feels like I'm, yeah, feels like I'm trying and always going back like, [SPEAKER_03]: Fortunately, not totally back where I would feel also exhausted.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that exhaustion and not feeling energy was the worst part for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I just feel like I'm not okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like I'm still, yeah, and I don't know what the next step could be to finally starting to feel like I [SPEAKER_03]: I'm getting somewhere, because I haven't felt happy, content with my life in some time.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's really, like it's not a pleasant feeling.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you just constantly feel nothing is working.

[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that's where I am in the moment.

[SPEAKER_03]: And really, yeah, I'm looking for just this one.

[SPEAKER_03]: One or two things that I could maybe start doing that would help.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I hear you.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're feeling stuck in that you're, you've tried a variety of things and is it that you feel better temporarily or that you, it doesn't seem to work at all?

[SPEAKER_03]: It depends.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like physical things, especially like nervous system regulation, I'd feel it helps.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I sometimes fall into that, you know, you feel better and then you stop because you feel better.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I think a lot of people, we all start meditating and then after a month or two, because we feel better, you just kind of, well, you fall out of it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm also thinking, you know, am I just not persistent enough with some things?

[SPEAKER_03]: And then the self compassion comes in, of course, because, you know, I'm not.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm really harsh to myself.

[SPEAKER_03]: I know that.

[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, some things are working and then some things are just not.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I'm also sometimes afraid now to start something, you know, because I rather do nothing and then do something and then that's not the right way.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I potentially feel worse again.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're losing hope in the trial and error process.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Would you say that your capacity has increased since you fully burnt out like in the peak of your burnout capacity for like energy has your energy increased your capacity to work [SPEAKER_01]: or your capacity to just have day-to-day function.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So physically, you have improved in that way.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting because at first you were saying mentally, you felt good and it was your physical body that crashed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now your physical body is maybe feeling a bit better and it's more mental and emotional that you're struggling with.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Have you been aiming to practice self-compassion even if you feel like you're not [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you're not practicing it most of the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: I tried, but it's so hard that I don't believe myself.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that there is one part of me and I haven't been able to really name it, I guess.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it's like an inner critic or something where, yeah, this voice that when I try to, it feels fake to be self-compassionate somehow.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it does feel fake at first because it's been so long with self judgment as the primary interdialogue.

[SPEAKER_01]: Did you hear my episode recently where I talked about how your brain is allowing a whole?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I did.

[SPEAKER_01]: How did that land for you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you agree?

[SPEAKER_03]: It depends on how I feel, I guess.

[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes honestly, I don't, you know, because that other voice is stronger.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like that A-hole is saying, no, I'm not an A-hole.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's just the truth.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, there it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're believing it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're not saying, what is this ridiculousness?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not lazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's okay to rest.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, so what is your inner critic saying to you?

[SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean voice?

[SPEAKER_01]: The judgmental voice saying to you specifically when you try to be compassionate besides you're being fake.

[SPEAKER_03]: It depends on the situation or the thing that I'm thinking about.

[SPEAKER_03]: So if it's like career, then it's like you're never gonna find the thing you really like, you would really like to do and work in.

[SPEAKER_03]: Or it says, you'll never get better.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, just your, you're just not that person who will get better and who will achieve things and come to the like have the goals achieved and everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: Does that voice sound like anybody you know, any people in your life?

[SPEAKER_01]: Anybody you've known in your past?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, maybe my dad, but on steroids.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And because with him, it wasn't, you're not going to make it.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just like, I guess, you know, only the best is good enough.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: So only straight A is good enough.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that's the perfectionism.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you also identify as the people, please, sir?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's also one of the reasons that I'm afraid to try new things because then I just think, you know, I'm gonna get myself into situation when where I will potentially have to say no or like sorry, I actually don't like this and that's super hard for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm working on it, but it's still like, I don't know, maybe I just also expectations, you know, I thought [SPEAKER_03]: It would be easier sooner but it's been years of me kind of trying and it's and it's still super hard.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I just don't do it right I just stay kind of in this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, make sense that you're stuck in the loop because you're afraid that you'll have to stand up for yourself and say no at some point.

[SPEAKER_01]: Stand up to a authority figure whether, you know, in your past, it was your dad.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then the present, it would, or the future, it maybe would be a boss or someone that you deem to be more important than you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I feel like, tell me if this resonates, but I feel like the crux of this is not believing you, like, are important enough, or worthy enough of doing whatever it takes to have your own back to get your needs met, to believe that you deserve the job you want, the life you want, [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, to some extent, probably is because on the other side, I really wanted, like the bigger part of me really want, like really, you know, wishes to achieve.

[SPEAKER_03]: And like, yeah, those things.

[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, maybe sometimes when it gets, like, that this voice when it gets really loud, then yeah, but then there are also times when I'm like, no, I do deserve, you know, things like that are good.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a little bit of a battle, internal battle.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: These different voices are different parts of you are like, yeah, I want this and this one's like, yeah, but you'll never get it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So why try and like, yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's work through a specific scenario or a specific sort of goal or path that you're like wanting to take just so we can narrow in on one thing rather than talk about it amorphously.

[SPEAKER_01]: So which thing in your life do you want to aim to get some clarity around in a next step?

[SPEAKER_03]: career is the one that is bothering me the most at the moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you said you want to switch careers.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that what I think you said you're not sure which direction you want to go or are you like if you really get honest with yourself are you clear about which path new path you want to take.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think so, so I used to work more in journalism before like in my student's days and radio and stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I always felt good doing that, so I thought that might be one of the [SPEAKER_03]: options that feel kind of good but then there are moments where it's like for some reason and again like I can't really pinpoint it, where it's like nah or it's like this inner critic or like this inner part of me again who says, who just says like nah no, I don't think that's it and and then I'm not sure like should I trust it or not.

[SPEAKER_03]: But if we say one direction that would be, it's so go back more into the journalism, especially like audio, stuff, podcasts, and stuff like that, for example.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you love about that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Or what's exciting or interesting?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I see you up about it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I get excited about stories that I could share and just also doing the work of it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't really know how to even explain it, just like how I remember it because I haven't done it in ten plus years.

[SPEAKER_03]: But how it felt while I was doing it was just like, yeah, I like to do this, you know, just that's really like, yeah, that was the only like, or you know, when when the time just passes super quickly, um, while you're in it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when you were in it, were you the person telling stories?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you like you like telling stories with your own voice.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but also telling stories by, for example, interviewing people, you know, or making journalistic pieces or, yeah, I guess you call it like this in English.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, also telling stories of others or, you know, yeah, like that as well.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that sounds like the core of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And where your brain goes is journalism, podcasting, radio is one way I can do that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, because also I think just the media, the medium of audio is what I like about it.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not just like any kind of journalism.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's really that creating with my voice, I guess, expressing through my voice.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I hear it just in the way you talk about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It does light you up a bit and also like there's confidence.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, you're not questioning.

[SPEAKER_01]: Am I good at telling stories?

[SPEAKER_01]: Am I good at interviewing?

[SPEAKER_01]: You're just like, that's the that part is solid.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or more solid than maybe the other parts.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure that voice says a little something.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what's stopping you from [SPEAKER_01]: looking for that job.

[SPEAKER_01]: A job that would allow you to do that.

[SPEAKER_03]: One thing that I tried once and it didn't work out basically like now I feel my CV is a problem because immediately they see you know so much experience in like marketing and advertising and then they're like [SPEAKER_03]: we can't take you for the other stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: So then I'm like, I feel like if I want to do it here in my home country, then the only way is to start on my own.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I wonder if it's gonna be too much for me to do everything on my own.

[SPEAKER_01]: That sounds like hyper-independence talking a bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if I do it myself, then no one can tell me no.

[SPEAKER_01]: Although your brain is telling you no.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Or it's better if I don't have to involve anybody because no one else can tell me no.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or this isn't good enough or.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, your brain is doing it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: No, and I think it might be also that, yeah, if I do it on my own, then maybe I don't have to say no, you know, because like, okay, I might find somebody to collaborate with, but then I actually don't like it, but then I have to say, sorry, it's not working out.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I'm just making these potential scenarios.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: All these scenarios that won't work.

[SPEAKER_01]: This won't work, and this won't work, and that won't work, and this won't work.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I hate to break it to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: But even if you start your own podcast, you have to get help, especially if you're successful, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like Kate did this alone, amazingly for a while.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it became too much in order for her to do other things in order to make money with, you know, being a burnout professional.

[SPEAKER_01]: She had to delegate, which means you have to talk to people, you have to work with people, collaborate with people, ask for help, you know, to do the production, you know, sponsorship if you want that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Editing some, you know, there's a lot that goes into it and getting help, being okay with asking for help, being willing to be vulnerable enough to [SPEAKER_01]: have hard conversations or just even easy conversations about like, this is what I could, this is what I need from you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Are you able to provide that service?

[SPEAKER_01]: What are we going to do in exchange?

[SPEAKER_01]: Just like this, you do know how to do it because you're doing it right now with me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Here, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You were like, I know I need help.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sarah's offering help.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm willing to do it in exchange for being on a podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: How convenient for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're practicing this thing that lights you up a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: Did you think of it this way?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's some part of you let it be okay to get help here in this scenario.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: For most people pleasing perfectionists that hyperindependent, like kind of aim for or like rely on hyperindependence, could benefit from some practice and asking for help.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because the reality is we can't do life alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can't do it alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're not wired that way as humans.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're wired for belonging, for co-regulation, [SPEAKER_01]: I have this strength.

[SPEAKER_01]: I provide this to the community.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have that strength.

[SPEAKER_01]: You provide this to the community.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't have this strength.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I need your help to do this thing for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And our modern culture is different in that, you know, we're not literally living where we're exchanging like cooking for hunting or, you know, cooking for washing or washing, you know, watching the kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this person does that thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little bit more compartmentalized than that.

[SPEAKER_01]: but it is necessary.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I can see how you're what you're considering to be failed attempts through this trial and error process has further kind of cemented this idea that see the things I try don't work.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I might as well just either aid to it myself or stop trying.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but of course that doesn't feel good.

[SPEAKER_01]: because you're limiting, you put yourself in this teeny tiny box of, well, this is the only thing left that I could ever possibly do when I have to do it on my own, and I'm burnt out, or, you know, I'm in burnout recovery, and like, can I do that on my own?

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so you're like, I have to do it alone, but I can't do it alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have to do it alone, but I can't do it alone, but I can't do it alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the loop.

[SPEAKER_01]: Does that feel like the loop?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that the core loop that you're in?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_03]: In this area, definitely.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we have this example of you asking for help on the podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know we didn't come to like it being a success yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm going to call it a success because you even applied for help.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what other examples do you have in your life?

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe not in career, but maybe in career where asking for help was a success.

[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.

[SPEAKER_01]: Take a time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_03]: I guess in recent years, I haven't read the asked much for help except with, I guess, therapy that I'm doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: That counts.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: That totally counts.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're asking for help with your mental health.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And although you are still stuck in this way, has it been benefit?

[SPEAKER_01]: Would you call it beneficial?

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a reason you're continuing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, yeah, for sure, for sure.

[SPEAKER_03]: It has, yeah, definitely it has.

[SPEAKER_03]: I just, I'm so tired of my being okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I just want to nap back into.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know, burn over cover takes too long.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you've been dealing with this for [SPEAKER_01]: two or three years, three years, you said.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a long time, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And research shows that we're not recovery without help.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you're getting some help, but you feel like, you know, I mean, you haven't been giving some conscious awareness and celebration to the fact that let's say, like your therapy has been working.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that makes you feel like you don't have help.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so then [SPEAKER_01]: Burnout Recovery takes three to five years if you kind of don't really get the help that you need when you need it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're in that territory and that's not failure because research is saying that's what happens.

[SPEAKER_01]: Many people go through this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Enough to have to say like data says this, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So reframe it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're thinking of it as a failure.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a failure.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just par for the course.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can you think of any other ways?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, when you moved home, did you move in with someone?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, my parents helped me a lot.

[SPEAKER_03]: Then, to, like, to do the actual moving.

[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's hardest for me to ask for help from my parents.

[SPEAKER_03]: I would say that there, my hyper independence shows the most.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when they helped you were you able to feel grateful or say like thank you with emphasis or did you just feel guilty and like a failure?

[SPEAKER_03]: I felt partially grateful but then one part of me was like what does this mean?

[SPEAKER_03]: They helped me and then and so now they might have expectations of how to reciprocate this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that how it was growing up transactional?

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't even like, when did I ask my parents for help?

[SPEAKER_03]: I was looking kids, you know, who could do it on her own, always?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I never needed help with, I don't know, studying or anything.

[SPEAKER_03]: Comparents.

[SPEAKER_03]: I guess, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Any other ways that you've gotten help during your burnout recovery process?

[SPEAKER_03]: friends for sure.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, even reaching out to people when I was feeling super bad, for example, yeah, just you don't like when when you can't call your therapist and you can call right so like for emotional support.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you have friends and you do ask them for help and it's beneficial, but it's worth it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you do have some examples of asking for help and receiving it and having that because that alone is almost a trial and error.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or it's a, you know, a trial like you try on asking for help from each of these people, see how it goes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some are worthwhile, some are not.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's one way that you could get help or ask for help?

[SPEAKER_01]: what it comes to finding a new career path in storytelling, interviewing, podcasting radio.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I know some people in production area, so I could ask for help there, but I'm wondering if they are the right people, you know, so then like that's the other side of it where I'm like, if I ask for help, and they say yes, and then we start working together and then I realize it's actually either, I don't know, the energy is not right or they are not doing it, how I expect it or whatever.

[SPEAKER_03]: Then I have to say, sorry, I actually asked you, but actually now.

[SPEAKER_03]: And right, but there you go, you have to say no.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's that fear saying no.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is, oh, that's good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that's where the hang up is even more than asking for help because it does seem like actually you're pretty good at asking for help.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the [SPEAKER_01]: fear of might, you might have to say no.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is really hanging you up.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: What would happen if you called one of your production people, you gave it a whirl, or they said, hey, how about this person?

[SPEAKER_01]: And you were like, actually, that's not the route I want to take.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the path of, you know, radio or audio storytelling that I want to take.

[SPEAKER_01]: What would happen if you said no to that person?

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you afraid will happen?

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm afraid of the reaction that I will seem ungrateful and that they will think less of me because I change my mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: How would you treat a friend that reached out to you for some?

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say marketing like referrals and turns out they didn't need it.

[SPEAKER_01]: or that's not quite the way route I wanted to go.

[SPEAKER_01]: How would you feel if your friends said that to you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think you would like chastise her or feel like it was a waste of your time and feel resentful?

[SPEAKER_03]: I like totally honestly probably a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, thank you for your honesty.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so if you would do that to someone else, then yeah, of course you're worried about someone doing that to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: So one thing I find, I mean, this is super common with people, please, I mean, that's like the root fear, saying no and having someone having feeling like you either can't say no or if you do that, you're gonna be ousted, right from that relationship or, you know, evolutionary, like the tribe, then you wouldn't survive if you weren't a part of.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is like it touches on core survival to say no.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it makes sense that this is scary and knowing that you can say no when it is best for you, especially doing it in a way that doesn't burn the bridge or, you know, damage the relationship can be really helpful.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is one thing that I often find people come to this ability to [SPEAKER_01]: know that there needs matter enough to risk saying no, to risk standing up and for themselves and having their own back.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it happens through the process of, so what I'm realizing is like, I don't know that I can unlock this for you today, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like in this, but I feel like we're getting close to, you know, what the real challenge is for you or like the crux of the matter.

[SPEAKER_01]: Would you agree?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like this fear of saying no was like, yeah, I'll die.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll die if I say no.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, and that because the parallel I just need to do anything right because then I'm rather I just stand still and then I don't have to say no to anybody, but then I'm unsatisfied because I'm not moving any right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just say this because I also don't know if you know about on Friday.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the process that I created with my material and experiences and all of Kate's research, she so graciously did to give us all this good information.

[SPEAKER_01]: I put together this program that helps you go understand where their burnout came from.

[SPEAKER_01]: So those patterns, you know, the experiences in life that got you into people pleasing at perfectionism, hyper independence, all of that, which [SPEAKER_01]: often is its own enlightening moment.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then when we start paying attention to where your resentment and fear is and start saying no to things in your life that are taking too much from you or you're giving too much to and sort of letting those things go or delegating them and then you start focusing on what do I need and you start giving it to yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes that requires asking for help.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of times it does if you need professional help, which you have done, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: We've just established, you've been doing that successfully because you are getting better.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Once you kind of shift your focus inward and give yourself permission to let go and to receive in the places that you need and you start to get buoyed up a little bit, then we start looking at safety.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we know that saying no makes you feel very unsafe.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right internally and then and your mind beast or you're lying a whole that unfortunately you're believing like is harsh and it's like you don't want to disappoint that part of you either right or like you know fail again or whatever the whatever the threat the or else is like So we start working on like what's your internal [SPEAKER_01]: Well, dialogue and what kind of internal boundaries do you want to have around your personal needs and what's best for you, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because although avoiding saying no makes you feel safe, it also keeps you stuck.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it isn't actually a self preservation technique, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Those things are at odds, because actually you might need to say no to stay alive, even though that feels wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of counterintuitive.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we start looking at what kind of a relationship do you have with yourself and how can we improve it so that you know I matter and that saying no even though it's a risk might be the thing I need to do sometimes even if like the risk is I get chastised more than likely in this day and age you're not going to get ousted from the tribe that you will die if you're not a part of right that's but so that's like an old [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, pattern.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's very real.

[SPEAKER_01]: The fear is very real.

[SPEAKER_01]: So once we kind of work on your internal relationship boundaries with yourself, which includes some self compassion, right, like noticing the self judgment, checking it and being like, this is a lie.

[SPEAKER_01]: This judgment isn't true.

[SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't have to, we don't need to keep that judgment moving forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you start practicing some self compassion, like, hey, [SPEAKER_01]: This has been hard and I see that I've done a lot of trial and error and it hasn't worked but I also see that I'm stuck in this loop and like, that's really hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's been very painful.

[SPEAKER_01]: As much as saying no might be painful, this is also painful.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's two different kinds of discomfort.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which one am I going to let?

[SPEAKER_01]: Which one am I going to step towards?

[SPEAKER_01]: Which one if I step towards it will provide me the freedom I'm looking for out of this loop?

[SPEAKER_01]: So we start looking at external relationships, external boundaries, which is like, you know, you and how you relate to others and how you might want to do that in a way that protects you, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: As people, please, we're used to protecting everyone else with our behavior.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's very different to protect yourself with your behavior.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's a big jump, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a leap of faith at first because we're not used to doing it.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have any proof that it works.

[SPEAKER_01]: to create safety because it feels really unsafe to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's worth practicing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's worth practicing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we do it and we do it together and you in the group you talk about your challenges and what you're scared of and everybody relates to what another and then everybody gets brave enough to do it all together in their own ways and their own lives, which is great.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the next pieces we talk about what lights you up, what are your core values, what's like your inner heart, compass, pointing you towards, which you are very clear on.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have a relationship with your heart, which is great.

[SPEAKER_01]: You said, I want to tell stories.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to help other people tell their stories.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's fantastic.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is so human.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's also like, [SPEAKER_01]: Our history was passed down in stories, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: We co-regulate.

[SPEAKER_01]: We laugh our own a fire for years and years and years and years.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, decades and generations telling stories, this is so, so human.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I say this because I want you to have some compassion, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's very human to do this and that feels natural.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's also very human to like be scared of saying, no, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so when you get clear on what you want and what your priorities are, you're able to use it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Give yourself permission to use it as a guiding light as a kind of like a safeguard because it tells you like, I need to protect this.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is special to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I want and I'll do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It takes so that I can live my priority of telling stories and help other people tell their stories.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that gives you some courage to [SPEAKER_01]: Practicing no, maybe in the little way as first, so that you start to gain some proof that like saying no is not the worst case scenario.

[SPEAKER_01]: I won't get ousted.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe sometimes a relationship doesn't work, but like that's sometimes okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why wasn't meant to work?

[SPEAKER_01]: But it doesn't mean you'll die, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: But we need some practice doing that to start to have trust with that process.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is white scary.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is why it's hard to do it on your own, because you're like, [SPEAKER_01]: essentially alone in the dark with your a-hole brain in your fear, and no one's making steps outside their comfort zone in that place, terrifying.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So after I say all of that, like the process of that, what comes up for you?

[SPEAKER_03]: It resonates a lot.

[SPEAKER_03]: It feels like, yeah, I was thinking the whole time that you were saying it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it feels definitely feels like I need some internal work first to then go go further.

[SPEAKER_03]: And because usually what happened has happened was that [SPEAKER_03]: in the end, my body forced me to say no, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because the fear one, sort of the terror and the fear one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or you're just like, when you were sick.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, it's usually like, I'm afraid to say no and stay in situations.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I just get so bad physically, bad, I'm like, okay, okay, body, okay, yes, okay, I'll say no now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because I'm, you know, sick again, basically.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you have decided that that's the check engine light that you listen to.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It has to get that bad in order for you to say no.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the only time you can say no is when you're like literally like face first on the floor can't stop coughing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then on the other side, that this feeds my inner critic, because then inner critic says, ha, again, you failed that saying no.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, of course this happened.

[SPEAKER_03]: You deserve to feel bad because, you know, you suck at saying no.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like with what you were saying, I could maybe change that.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, like, starts [SPEAKER_03]: internally, my conversations with my A-hol.

[SPEAKER_01]: Standing up to your inner A-hol.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, back again.

[SPEAKER_01]: Your inner A-hol, like no listen.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the truth, the hundred percent of the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the truth, that whatever the comment is in that moment, [SPEAKER_01]: I do know that you can change this because I've watched it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've watched the sixty something people that have gone through and fried in the last couple years.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've watched them go through this process and [SPEAKER_01]: go from not at all trusting themselves and not at all feeling like they have permission to have their own back and to suddenly kind of midway, two thirds of the way through the program, they're like, guess what I did?

[SPEAKER_01]: I said no to my boss.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some, they tried to hand me a new project or they asked me, can you, can you handle this?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I actually said no, because in reality, I don't have energy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess what?

[SPEAKER_01]: They just gave it to someone else.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't lose my job.

[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't beat me up internally.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't have another thing on my plate.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you go like, oh, right, there's so much relief in just that one example.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you get a little more confidence to try it again in a different scenario in a different relationship or maybe in the same relationship.

[SPEAKER_03]: One question that I popped up now was.

[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, there are still situations when I'm unable to, I would be, or will be unable to say no.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then this harsh critic, or maybe perfectionists, you know better.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I think that there's where self-compassion comes in, because I really don't know how to be self-compassionate.

[SPEAKER_03]: in a way where it's like limitless, I don't know, but how to constantly be, when is the point, or is there a point where you say, okay, actually like stop, this is not cool, blah, blah, or you like, you know, how long do you have to fight with your inner critic?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, how long it's okay to be not able to say no, or like have failing at saying no.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you've kind of learned already.

[SPEAKER_01]: You were faced down, you know, you were coughing so much you couldn't work.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can only not say no for so long or you're stuck or you're not making a money or you're, you know, just so depressed because you aren't doing something that aligns with what feeds you and fuels you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: I think this inner critic is pretty much always there, but like for example, for me, my relationship with that inner critic has changed because I've also cultivated my ability to have self-compassion.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not always such a huge battle, but there are still certain things that ignite a bit of a battle because there are my own growth edge, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: There are things that I'm [SPEAKER_01]: working on, can't think of something right this second.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like, it happens.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, maybe my question would be, how to stay self-compassionate, even when there are, you know, the downs that when I think this must, so I think that's where it's most important.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because you're like, oh, for me, self-compassion when I'm down looks like, oh my God, this has been really hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: Rather than saying like, you're low, like going into like a beat yourself up mode, it's like, oh man, life has been really hard lately.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm tired.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's understandable that I'm tired.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm gonna need some more rest.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, self.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's take a break and get some rest.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because the wise part of me knows that I can't keep facing whatever's going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm not rested, not fed.

[SPEAKER_01]: not taking care of.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's where it, like, it helps me turn, I feel low and then I'm like, I get, I let myself, I kind of use that compassionate part of me to give myself permission to have what I need to meet my basic needs so that I can kind of boot, get re-bulstered and rebuild my confidence again to be like, okay, let's get back at it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like engaging and trying and doing new things and growing and then kind of pulling back and being like, oh, that was a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe it was a failure or success.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like either way, I need a break.

[SPEAKER_01]: I need to pay myself back for that stepping out of my comfort zone and doing something new and big.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then does that make sense?

[SPEAKER_01]: Does that answer the question?

[SPEAKER_03]: I think yeah, I just, I really, I'm really not good at this.

[SPEAKER_03]: I really, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I believe you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was awful at it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I had zero self compassion, zero.

[SPEAKER_01]: I did not know how to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was, I was so judgmental of myself in so many ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so do you want some suggestions on what I did?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, please.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just started following like, well, one, [SPEAKER_01]: Haley McGee, Paige McGee, who's been on this podcast in the past.

[SPEAKER_01]: She focuses on kind of like the nuances of boundaries for people, please, and they're very compassionate.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like how she taught how she helps you talk to yourself in this process of growing and learning how to have boundaries when you are overcovering people, please, that was huge for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I forever [SPEAKER_01]: Cherish her work and also I started following Kristen Neff who is also better on this podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: She is like the leading researcher on self compassion.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I start following her account.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is like social media.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when I'm like, oh, I'm scrolling, I'm actually getting some like growth support.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm getting some, I'm getting resource.

[SPEAKER_01]: I read these little scenarios.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, even if it's just like one real at a time or one posted a time, I go like, oh, that's a good one.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is hard for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I try to take it, if it really resonates, I take it with me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I try to, you know, practice it or like aim to remember to do it when I catch myself in self judgment.

[SPEAKER_01]: I go, hold on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Could I be nicer?

[SPEAKER_01]: Could I be nicer to myself in this moment?

[SPEAKER_01]: What did Kristen say or what did Haley say?

[SPEAKER_01]: What can I say instead?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I just practice little bits at a time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because as much as we want to just be like, I will be self-compassionate now, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we should just flip the switch.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just that's not how changed growth evolution happens, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's little doable bite size.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we always stress.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're not recovery takes so long because it's slow and steady and teeny, tiny things that once, you know, in a row.

[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I think I sometimes forget about that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I have constant reminder, I guess.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is, and that's okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean you failed.

[SPEAKER_01]: It means you're practicing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It means you're growing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that also needs a little bit of a reframe, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because you're like, I tried it once.

[SPEAKER_01]: Boom didn't work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Fail.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you know, the other critic is like, CC, I told you, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm working.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, but how about, and this is what I was doing with like, asking you to recall [SPEAKER_01]: experiences of asking for help that were successful because you can start to build an evidence journal, which was another episode actually that was on pride, because I love these tools.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like our brains are wired for negativity, not for positivity.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you want, you can literally write it down or take a note of like, what evidence do I have that asking for help is beneficial that saying no is beneficial?

[SPEAKER_01]: or like I didn't die when I said no.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you start building your evidence, like your proof, your proof journal of it's okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's okay to say no if it has my own back.

[SPEAKER_01]: If it means I have my own back.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: It just feels like even if I build all this, like, I don't know, thick books on evidence.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's never enough.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's how it feels at the moment, because, you know, it feels the other side, side feels so.

[SPEAKER_01]: It does.

[SPEAKER_01]: And until you until you have that evidence, it will, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's like, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you have a scale you have a lot of evidence over here on the self judgment side or failure side or this does work side and so like you have to build up enough right you have to put your proof your evidence journal on this side of the scale and it won't be until you have enough proof for the scale to go to the other side.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, but while you're in this gray area of in between, it will feel like a battle.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to feel like a battle that's worth continuing until the scales tip and then you're like, oh, one day you'll be like, see?

[SPEAKER_01]: This is worth doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, that takes more time than we want it to, just like burnout recovery takes more time than we want it to, but it is worth doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is worth doing and I'm so glad you haven't given up even though it's been three years of struggle.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're here.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you know, that part of you does have hope even if it's if even if it's a teeny tiny bit of hope, you have some because you're here asking for help.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're still doing therapy.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you still have this like sparkle in your heart for telling stories and helping others tell their stories and [SPEAKER_01]: That's worth living for.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you stoke those things, those get bigger.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: They will create, like stoking them will make them kind of like a force that will have momentum, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like right now the self judgment side has more momentum, but you can build up the mass in the momentum on this more positive self compassionate, heart, lead, [SPEAKER_01]: self-protective side.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what's one thing that you want to do based on this conversation today?

[SPEAKER_01]: What is your next best step?

[SPEAKER_01]: Just one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just one.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had just one.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know we talked about a lot of things, so that's a tough decision maybe, but which one comes for it as kind of like easy and feels like, yeah, I want to do that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think this final part when you said about the scale, this really was like an aha moment in a way.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think I just want to do small little stuff that built the other side or like to put on the other side of the scale.

[SPEAKER_03]: And even I know I will feel like [SPEAKER_03]: This is whatever, or even in the moments where I will feel like it's not worth doing it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think this illustration is really now like giving me like a super solid argument to keep doing it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so glad that metaphor came forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: That visual.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and if, you know, if you resonated with everything we talked about, so you're welcome to join on Friday.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna be starting in October and check it out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll send you the information when we get it all finalized because it sounds like something that could be really useful to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And to be able to do this with a group of people that are going through it at the same time, it's, you get their momentum to add to your momentum.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like it really does help those skills tip a little faster because it's like, [SPEAKER_01]: watching other people do it builds your confidence that's kind of why we're doing these episodes right because now someone's resonating with your story and might be like oh my god the scales and like they wouldn't have heard that before right or you know so that's great no you're invited and all of you listening you're invited on fried if that sounds like a good thing for you right now okay Kate [SPEAKER_01]: Another Kate.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for telling your story.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know that's what you love to do, but it's different when it's the most vulnerable scary part of your internal landscape.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you were brave enough to share that with us today.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I really appreciate that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know the listeners appreciate that because it makes it real, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about real struggle here.

[SPEAKER_01]: getting to a place where you know it's possible to shift, to get yourself out of burnout is really important to stop that hope, to keep you going.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I really have to say, but going through this process of burnout, I'm fried or fried, the podcast was really [SPEAKER_03]: So important and it helped me so many times to feel, you know, less alone in this or just find some solutions for stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, so really thank you for everything you're doing really.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're so welcome.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening and being willing to be receptive to [SPEAKER_01]: what we're offering and the literal words that we're saying, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like those are planting seeds in your body that are starting to sprout, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: They just need a little watering, little soil, little sun.

[SPEAKER_01]: I believe you will get all the way through your burnout recovery.

[SPEAKER_01]: So just keep going and adding little bits on that self compassion outside of the scale.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: I will.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're welcome.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right, Kate.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And fried fam.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for being here.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you next time.