[SPEAKER_02]: you deserve more than feeling constantly fried to a crisp.

[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to Fried, the burnout podcast, where you get the understanding, the community, and the information you need to end burnout for good.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host Kate Dunovan and all of my work focuses on hashtag ending burnout culture.

[SPEAKER_02]: Outside the pod, you'll find me on stages at conferences, giving keynotes, in offices, providing corporate trainings, doing virtual VIP one-on-one work, or supporting our group program on Friday that is run by my right-hand woman Sarah Vosin.

[SPEAKER_02]: Both Sarah and I have been through burnout and came out stronger, happier and more fulfilled, and we want that post burnout growth for you too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Fried Fam.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am having a little bit of a fan-girl moment, and that doesn't happen a lot in the podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: You guys know that you don't hear me say that very often.

[SPEAKER_02]: But today, I get to talk to Mita Malik, who is a changemaker with a track record of transforming culture and businesses.

[SPEAKER_02]: She gives innovative, culturally resonant ideas of voice and serves customers and communities with purpose.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's had an extensive career as a multicultural marketer in the beauty and consumer good space, being a fierce advocate for including and representing Black and Brown communities.

[SPEAKER_02]: Her first book, Reimagined Inclusion, debunking 13 myths to transform your workplace, is a Wall Street Journal and USA Today Bestseller.

[SPEAKER_02]: her highly anticipated second book in the reason that we're here today that I'm so excited to tell you about is the devil emails at midnight.

[SPEAKER_02]: What good leaders can learn from bad bosses, which comes out September 30th, 2025, and we want you the point of releasing this episode when we release it is because folks pre orders matter.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you are out there and you have read her work before, or even if you have not, and you're like, wait, who's that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Which is probably not true.

[SPEAKER_02]: You probably all know who she is.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you haven't heard of her, look her up now, get the book now, do the pre-order now, so that we can bump this next book up to all the best cellar lists, too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Mehta.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so grateful.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've been so looking forward to our conversation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Me too.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm pumped.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So first things first, you have a burnout story.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have a few.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's happen to one of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we talked about.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for previewing the book.

[SPEAKER_01]: The devil emails at midnight.

[SPEAKER_01]: What could leaders can learn from bad bosses?

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the bosses that I talk about in this book.

[SPEAKER_01]: Her name is Medusa.

[SPEAKER_01]: I nickname all my bosses because creates emotional distance and space.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you think, well, I could never be that bad of a boss.

[SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: Up until that point in my life, I had never had anyone scream at me, and I mean not my parents, not my brother, not my husband, not friends.

[SPEAKER_01]: I certainly didn't tolerate that behavior in friendships, and then I entered the workplace, and I'm working for this individual who screams, who yells, who publicly humiliates, privately humiliates, who throws tantrums like a toddler, [SPEAKER_01]: And she has been the course of the time I know her, two teams of a dozen people turn over and I'm on the second team.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I find out that I'm gonna be moved to work for her.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you don't have a choice a lot of times in these larger organizations.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yep, you're just a cognitive wheel.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember saying, [SPEAKER_01]: The only thing I could muster was like, she's not an inclusive leader and they were just so flawed that I was being a trouble maker, to track, to track or posture, how dare I say I didn't want to work for this person who was notorious and I will tell you what happened during the course of that time.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, things like, oh, you Indians are all smelly.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have such hard names to pronounce.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why do you wear such a basic clothes?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, you know, I can't afford Chanel, like you, you know, pay me enough, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And like, yeah, and this is the same person who threw her Chanel shoe at a colleague and hit Mr.

Head, but it's like the trauma of that story that I forgot.

[SPEAKER_01]: My husband had to remind me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was just wild.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what ends up happening is, for a period of time, I go to work scared every single day.

[SPEAKER_01]: and that fear motivates me to work really hard, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Period, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Period, that period, that short period.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I don't want to be an Iraq.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want her to call me on the phone.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want her to come into my office.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't, and, and then you get tired.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So then you're like, it doesn't matter what I do.

[SPEAKER_01]: if I send the right email, the wrong email, if I order the wrong lunch and not what she likes.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I whatever I do, she's gonna come after me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you start to try to be invisible, and fly under the radar.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I started to just be less and less productive because I'm like, I don't even wanna really do any work anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then that just leads to disengagement.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then it leads to me being anxious, me being tired, what I haven't talked about publicly until your show is that I do believe I was drinking excessively.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was in Manhattan at the time and did like a big beauty company and I, you know, there was a bar right underneath the building, right, isn't it, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So I was anytime and I just was pre-kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would be doing happy hour every single night and there was a moment that I'm embarrassed to admit I was like sick from the next day like I was still sick because I'm you know people say I've a tall zoom personality, but I'm five one and a half I'm not that big of a person I can't hold my alcohol and the next day I was sick in the bathroom and I'm like oh my god people are gonna think I'm pregnant but I'm not I'm just sick and it's like wow and I had a friend from a prior company [SPEAKER_01]: have dinner with me and she immediately said what is going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like she could tell the light from my eyes had just drained.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that is when I started my get out folder where I was just like I need to start coming up with the plan to escape this person, which I ultimately did, but that is one of a few burnout stories I have.

[SPEAKER_02]: one of a few.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is the one that I have the most notes under.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I'm reading the book.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know about one of my advanced copies.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So exciting.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this was I had the most notes here before I read in your bio that this was maybe a story that you might consider saying on the podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this was just simply of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And here's where most of my notes are.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the thing that I actually like wrote down word for word that it says in the book.

[SPEAKER_02]: is after you said, well, she's just not an inclusive boss, which is the kindest possible way that you could say it.

[SPEAKER_02]: The response you got was, why would you say anything?

[SPEAKER_02]: We all know she's an issue.

[SPEAKER_02]: You ruined your chances of a promotion this year.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's how she talked to the heart.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it is, and I still remember that HR professional ascended, said it, we had been friends prior to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And after that, I was just, [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody wanted anything to do with me because I said what everyone had been thinking and that was like for me to even muster that up at that time in my career that took a lot of courage for me to even kind of blurred that out in the moment and I was all of a sudden the problem not her but me yeah and this is the thing that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm on a pretty big mission to avoid as much blame as possible when it comes to burn out in most cases.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when there is a particular thing that is happening, like if you look at the research into toxic workplaces, there's got to be four components, or there's got to be harassment, bullying, ostracism, and lack of inclusion.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she does all of those things.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's to me it's like, I know so many leaders that are trying so hard to do it well.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I work with so many companies that are really making an effort.

[SPEAKER_02]: Why the hell do we still have a medusa?

[SPEAKER_01]: And why are they protected?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, I say, bad bosses or aren't born there made, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You can be a bad boss in any industry.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there are maybe some industries where there we have a track record of creating exceptionally bad bosses.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think one of them might be beauty.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of them might be like Hollywood.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of them might be think about a brand that's really hot in the market and everybody wants to work there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's sort of like, me, if you don't want to deal with this, there's a line of 10 people who will take the job.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's part of what happens is you're saying like how does this keep going on well it's like scarcity mindset like you don't want the job someone also take it [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so this is why I was going to wait to get to this part.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think this is actually one of the most important things.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's so many good questions in the book.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so many good prompts for people to sort of examine their own behavior.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a tendency to be a gossip girl boss.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know that about myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's good that you know that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's great.

[SPEAKER_02]: As I started reading it, my stomach turned and I was like, oh, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love that you're being vulnerable.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll talk about, I have many toxic behaviors.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's great.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I liked when you wrote about that in the book too, because you weren't like, oh, I've done everything perfectly.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if all of you could just learn for me, that would be wonderful.

[SPEAKER_02]: You were like, no, no, all of us have moments in our lives that we that we do things wrong for different reasons.

[SPEAKER_02]: And here's how we can catch ourselves as leaders, like you gave a lot of ways of like if you're in this, this is how you can catch yourself and sort of unwind it and you gave a lot of things that said and this is for fried for the fried audiences is you know really important bit if you find yourself in one of these scenarios here's some things that you can do you can't protect yourself from bullying it's it's going to harm you you can't stay and be protected but this is where [SPEAKER_02]: folks tip number one.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have been asking you for six years to racefully exit situations that do not support you and you did this with something that you called a get out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, my get out spreadsheet when I work for Medusa.

[SPEAKER_01]: I swear to God, I think I interviewed at 55 companies that year or more.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm talking like, round.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not talking like, just applied, like, unlinked in.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking like, was tracking and that I was going through the process.

[SPEAKER_01]: But part of what happens is, and you talk about this so extensively, like the journey, the path to burnout is different for everyone, [SPEAKER_01]: There's a moment right before that where you can be making the plan.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's like a moment where you're going to at least for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go down the downward spiral and start to be the person who will become a person who's not performing on the job, who's irritated, agitated, angry to be there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Feels like she's been wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: And all the things, yeah, I've become toxic.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Plan is so important because I can I take that energy.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's happening is so wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can't maybe quit the next day, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I had friends who said to me, why didn't she just quit?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, he's like, I'm just saying I live in this.

[SPEAKER_01]: To pay all sorts of things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, no, take that energy and that's what I did.

[SPEAKER_01]: I made the get out plan, that's not the first of many.

[SPEAKER_01]: Get out plans, I've had.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like, okay, you're upset.

[SPEAKER_01]: Your energy, or you mean to take it and try to go.

[SPEAKER_01]: network, meet new people, tell people you're looking, sit with yourself and think about what do you want to do next and just start make the plan and work the plan.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like you said, when you get into that like really deep slump in my book we call this sitting in the muck, you get to a point where like you, you are not making a plan.

[SPEAKER_02]: You are not implementing a plan.

[SPEAKER_02]: The only plan you've got is Netflix.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're done, you just don't have a thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that could be part of the plan.

[SPEAKER_01]: That can be certain relief, but apart, not the whole plan.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that this is where some of the beginning unwinding needs to happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's so much energy locked up in burnout.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not that we're totally empty.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's that that energy is an available to us because it's been squished into boxes by Medusa's.

[SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes we're thinking, oh my God, I have no energy.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm exhausted and you are exhausted.

[SPEAKER_02]: If we could unlock some of those boxes, we could actually find some energy within you that still exists.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's just been shoved down and closed and protected on purpose.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's not a bad thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: No judgment.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it did happen and we need that energy in order to create these get out plans.

[SPEAKER_00]: agree.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, let's go through some of, we're not going to go through all of the bosses and their names, but some of them are really funny.

[SPEAKER_02]: The thing that I love about this book is it's, it's, it's funny.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's an easy way.

[SPEAKER_02]: It gives you a little bit of a, like, there's a little bit of a candle as you go along because you're a, you picture the person and you can, you can create it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to talk about, because it's really easy to talk about the people who are harassing and doing microaggressions and all that's like the obvious stuff, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, let's talk about the Napper.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the napper.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, let's talk about him the napper.

[SPEAKER_02]: How does he do?

[SPEAKER_02]: I love this question.

[SPEAKER_02]: How do you say the boss that does not deserve to still have a job?

[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't and I'm telling you years later, I'm still like, how did they not you have to move on and keep slept in every meeting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking small meetings I'm talking big meetings my mother still remembers him and had me add details into the book she's like don't remember when he did this like I could not make this stuff up, but here's what I will tell you because people ask me this how can you spot a bad boss during an interview process right like how do you know [SPEAKER_01]: you know, as long as you apologize, but like there was no apology and an interview process if someone repeatedly shows a plate, listen, I love a good movie trailer, people who know me know this.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a movie trailer into the actual movie.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a sneak peak preview of what it might be like to work there and listen, I knew that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that day I remember, I had like 11 interviews, it was wild.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they didn't even offer me a glass of water and mom was like they didn't offer you glass of water You should not take that job.

[SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that hilarious?

[SPEAKER_01]: She was like, don't take the job.

[SPEAKER_01]: Way to go, man.

[SPEAKER_01]: I liked everybody but him.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was going to be the boss.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so the signs were there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I take the job.

[SPEAKER_01]: The first damn at work.

[SPEAKER_01]: I go into his cubicle next to me and he's passed a sleep.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, what is going on?

[SPEAKER_01]: And this was like so weird.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, and then, you know, I talk about this in the double evils at midnight.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, [SPEAKER_01]: you know, does he have a drinking problem?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is he not?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like, you know, because you don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: And no, he's sitting in the cubicle next to me, trying to get a job.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I find out what a salary is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, what the?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I just, that to me, there's, you know, there's, there's this famous quote that talks about, [SPEAKER_01]: The worst behavior of willing to tolerate becomes the culture.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're, you know, and so then it's like again, you're letting this person sleep on the job, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Literally you don't know because these and big meetings.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, big meetings I'll never forget.

[SPEAKER_01]: These images is you're talking about your reading the book.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like images of these conference rooms and I remember exactly where these things happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, and you're like, why didn't they?

[SPEAKER_01]: part ways with the sooner.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the story behind, sorry, one of the things on the story behind the Napper is that he actually was a good performer.

[SPEAKER_01]: He also became disengaged because he felt like he had been slided in the workplace.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like everyone has a story.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I try to say is that, you know, bad bosses are misdirected, misguided, hurt human beings.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we all can be a bad boss, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this idea that he was so disengaged because he was so disappointed [SPEAKER_02]: Whenever we're doing a big session with a company, we always have to remind people that all of these things, every single thing that you talked about in the book, the microaggressions, the urgency culture, the disengagement, the micromanagement, the all the things, all of those things are contagious.

[SPEAKER_02]: They are.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is the part that people want to a company's want to believe is untrue, because it's hard to manage.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And people want to believe that if they just meditate enough, it won't bother with them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Another medication app.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: the company gives me for free.

[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't work.

[SPEAKER_02]: You cannot stay in situations like this and be healthy at your workplace.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't care how many things you do to take care of yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can't fight against that environment.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can't, you cannot.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I love the part that you said, it's all contagious behavior.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is contagious.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I've been the person we talked about this for whatever reason, things that have happened, I've become disengaged.

[SPEAKER_01]: And or else, I talk sick.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's time for me to move on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the biggest gift you can give someone is, you might not meant to be doing the job you are today, but you're meant to do great things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so to help them move on to what that is next is so important.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's so hard when you're in a place that's that's right with burnout because you you've lost yourself trust you've lost yourself confidence you've lost yourself worth so you don't think anybody will hire you you said you know you when you did this get out spreadsheet it was a really bad market that year and you still you were just like working it that's what people are doing right now absolutely not great not great time to be looking for a job as a general rule right now but [SPEAKER_02]: If you have to get out, you have to get out when you said also in that Medusa section, you said it took you 13 months, I think.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it did, it did absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't like you got to drop the next week.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, keep added until it happens because you cannot allow yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: to be stuck in a situation because you're not continuously doing the work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, and there's so many factors.

[SPEAKER_01]: The market's being mad.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's sort of role you're looking for, salary to all those things?

[SPEAKER_01]: And it gets more complicated as you grow in your career.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's AI changes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, AI.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're competing against AI agents for our jobs, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to just continue to work the plan and reaching out to as many people as possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so important.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[SPEAKER_02]: The Napper is one that I really loved.

[SPEAKER_02]: The white rabbit is the next one I'd like to talk about.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's interesting when I'm speaking to a global audience, which I know you have, is that I grew up with Allison Wonderland.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I did a big talk for a company where they actually showed a clip of Allison Wonderland, because not everyone grew up with that and not everyone understands the context of the white rabbit, which I thought was beautiful, and it's a character in Allison Wonderland, [SPEAKER_01]: this was the boss white rabbit who just ran around like chicken with her head cut off all the time had this huge sort of a mark Jacob's like brown worn tote running around running in running out people chasing her loved creating fake fire drills the the master of creating fake fire drills deadlines that didn't exist [SPEAKER_01]: Things that didn't need to start, but she didn't know what to do so she'd start projects and reports that nobody cared about.

[SPEAKER_01]: The thing that was interesting was she also was a bottleneck and created the or created the fake fire journal, meaning somethings do on Friday, but she was sent the request.

[SPEAKER_01]: four weeks ago, because it's pretty complicated, whatever it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then it lands in our box Wednesday at 5 p.m.

[SPEAKER_01]: two days before it's due.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you go down, you know, you scroll down the email channel.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was sent four weeks ago and you sat on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it is wild how [SPEAKER_01]: When everything is urgent, nothing is urgent.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing is urgent.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is just another example of being chipped away out, chipped away out, disengagement, leading to burnout, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You're just like, wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a moment I'll never forget.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was like a Friday afternoon.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is when there was something urgent to that she hadn't created.

[SPEAKER_01]: but it was the the boss who cried wolf.

[SPEAKER_01]: Half the people didn't show up, half the people didn't care.

[SPEAKER_01]: She can't even rally the team.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because people were just like, yeah, everything's urgent.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not showing up, and this was actually something the CEO needed to do at five.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, wow, people just don't believe you anymore when you say it's urgent.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the thing that I liked about sort of dissecting her personality was that often, people that have this tendency, bosses, or people in general.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, this is a really common burnout behavior.

[SPEAKER_02]: And most of us that that engage in this behavior, we create problems that need solving and now.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then add the urgency onto them because we're afraid and you said this in the book too into different words we are afraid that if we aren't solving the problems all the time and we aren't overworking and we're not valuable.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're not worth our jobs we don't deserve our job so we create all this extra pressure.

[SPEAKER_02]: in order to prove how important we are.

[SPEAKER_01]: You summarized it so well.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, what's one of our greatest fears is that we become a relevant, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like whether that's at home or at work.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's absolutely you know that it's she wanted to consistently be relevant, stay relevant.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that was the way and it was like the busyness badge.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't you love the busyness badge?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm too busy to go the bathroom.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm too busy to have lunch.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what you know this.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the unofficial hashtag of fried is P when you need to pee.

[SPEAKER_01]: P when you need to pee.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I remember that, I remember saying, I was like, what?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm not embarrassed to tell you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have to go to the bathroom.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm embarrassed that I'm sleeping in midnight.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, people were not AI agents.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, AI is here.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've embraced them.

[SPEAKER_01]: We need to lean into being human and making sure that like, we're taking care of ourselves so that we can show up as the best leaders we need to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's full stop.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, and I think people like to make it more complicated.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a client that I worked with, literally showed up to one of my keynotes and did up taking a sabbatical while he was on sabbatical, he realized that he has this urgency thing in him.

[SPEAKER_02]: He went back to work and told his team that they now have permission every time he's like, [SPEAKER_02]: Just have one question.

[SPEAKER_02]: He was like, I'm just in everybody because I need to be checked and I don't know how to check myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is such a habit that I don't how to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And within 30 days their productivity had gone up by 30% as a team that's amazing and how amazing that he was vulnerable enough and self aware enough with your help to do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: People will ask me, how can you manage up to a white rabbit?

[SPEAKER_01]: It is really freaking hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's next to impossible, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: The white rabbit, that boss needs to say, this is something I know I need to work on.

[SPEAKER_01]: I need accountability for my team.

[SPEAKER_01]: You all coach me, help me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if they haven't worked through the fear of becoming irrelevant or ostracized or left out of whatever it is, this is their safety.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're interfering with their safety, they're not going to get it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you have got to make it get out spreadsheet.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was going to get out all goes back to the get out spreadsheet.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I just loved it so much.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that was another one that I thought was really important.

[SPEAKER_02]: Folks, like I said, I'm not going over all the different types of bosses.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in the book, me did does an incredible job of explaining it in a story that's fun to read.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then going through the stats of why this matters, there's lots of big numbers in here that you, what was it the, the napper I wrote down.

[SPEAKER_02]: employees who are not engaged or who are actively disengaged cost the world eight point eight trillion and less productivity which is nine percent of the global GDP.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's wild.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean you can't make the numbers or the numbers and that's research and you think that as a leader you see that number and you think I need to have an intervention but this is what it takes [SPEAKER_01]: that I include in the devil e-mails at midnight is a question that a Harvard business, Albert University professor includes, which is what would it take to make you happy at work again.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can you imagine if someone, I was disengage someone, takes me until lunch and asks me that question, like snaps me back into reality, like this doesn't have to be this way, not for the company and not for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I loved this question and [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I can't afford for words.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the full question that you wrote in your book, and I want fried fam.

[SPEAKER_02]: Please sit down for this one for a second.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want you to take this in for a moment and see if it's possible to answer this question for yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because this is one of those.

[SPEAKER_02]: You might need to take out a notebook.

[SPEAKER_02]: You might need to put us on pause.

[SPEAKER_02]: You might need to pause us, send it to a friend, and then take out a notebook.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what you need to do, but some...

[SPEAKER_02]: Here's the question, what could change at work for you to be excited again about working here?

[SPEAKER_02]: Not what has to, not what must, now what could change at work for you to be excited again about working here?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a really great question.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, really great question.

[SPEAKER_02]: He said that was Professor Michael Murphy from You know, if you need a moment right now, I'm going to just go ahead.

[SPEAKER_02]: Come back when you're ready and we'll be here.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a big one.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then I want to talk about I am not a mother.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to say that upfront, my, my people know that already, but [SPEAKER_02]: I bet you know where I'm going with this.

[SPEAKER_02]: This one made me angrier.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was really, I wasn't sure you would go there.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't sure which one you were going to go to.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious during this part of the book.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: The great pretender.

[SPEAKER_01]: Introduce us.

[SPEAKER_01]: The great pretender had a number of children, female senior leader at the company, [SPEAKER_01]: was I would say sort of the poster woman where she's in social media.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's doing the panels, women's employer research group, all of the things work like balance, work like integration, wonderful.

[SPEAKER_01]: punished me for being pregnant, full stop, full stop.

[SPEAKER_01]: I became pregnant and I was my completely derailed for a promotion.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so interesting and I chronicle this in the devil emails at midnight.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was only like three months pregnant and then four months pregnant and the cutting me out of meetings.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you're going to be gone soon and I'm like, ah, I'm [SPEAKER_01]: takes nine months to have a baby 10 months.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, unless you're really late, you know, it's like, no, if you're physically carrying the baby and you don't ever make assumptions for people, you always ask, but it was wild to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is really an interesting point about biases we have about people.

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, certainly we've heard about men who will penalize women for being pregnant, but it can be anybody penalizing anybody, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have, so I think that's what's really, that's, that was important for me to include in the book that anyone can be a bad boss.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And to anybody.

[SPEAKER_02]: And to anybody.

[SPEAKER_02]: And but this one, I will admit, [SPEAKER_02]: I have a confession during this chapter.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was reading it and at first when she was saying, okay, yeah, but you're gonna be out.

[SPEAKER_02]: So let's take this off your plate and like, let's make sure when you go out that everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I was at my first thought when I was reading it is, maybe she was trying to be helpful.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe no one did that for her when she was pregnant and she was someone had these were my initial thoughts.

[SPEAKER_02]: Until.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have the baby, and this bitch kept asking you for shit.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, and I let the, I did not set the boundaries.

[SPEAKER_01]: I did not keep them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I let the floodgates open.

[SPEAKER_01]: I worked off and on during my entire youth.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is what I was furious about.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I did it to myself, I allowed it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But also, we talk about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's power and privilege in workplaces.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was the boss.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was afraid, would I have a job when I get back all the things you worry about when you're on leave.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was wild and it just, because, you know, I have memories in my career of people coming back from let's say a parental leave and they opened their inbox and they sit there and they hit the delete button as they're emptying out the inbox because they've been gone for so long.

[SPEAKER_01]: Great, that was not me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I knew exactly what was happening.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was checking email every day and got completely sucked in.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and this is one of the things that makes me wild.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because in this country, in the States, we are so obsessed with this being a problem.

[SPEAKER_02]: Herb doesn't have a problem with this.

[SPEAKER_02]: People take off for a year or two and somehow it's fine.

[SPEAKER_02]: Canada, many other countries, yeah, they don't.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I lived in Europe for 13 years and I watched it happen around me all the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: And after two years, people would go back to work and pick up where they left off and then keep going.

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, you're not on the same project that project ended already.

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, yeah, that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But they have systems and processes for place, recovering people for doing succession planning, thinking about me just going out for it's not that hard, it's not that complicated and yet we make these things complicated.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you don't need to hire your best friend as a consultant and paying her daughter.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll never forget vacuuming and doing all sorts of stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, she is supposed to be working.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this chapter absolutely made me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was really at the end of the beginning, I really was like well maybe she was just trying to give something she hadn't gotten in the past and then I was like you know what I love that you brought that up is I think it's a really important point you know when these moments have happened in my career I always think like who gave you permission to slow down my career, who gave you the permission and sometimes they're from helpful places people today.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is what happened to me and I wanted to do better for you, or the boss who said, you have two young kids at home.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can't take that job to travel.

[SPEAKER_01]: Who's going to take care of them and stop me from getting promoted into this big role?

[SPEAKER_01]: But even if it's coming from a good place of intent, always think about the impact and ask people, [SPEAKER_01]: This is what I'm thinking.

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?

[SPEAKER_01]: What would you like to do, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very simple question.

[SPEAKER_01]: What are your dreams?

[SPEAKER_01]: How can I support you?

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you want to do?

[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: What would you like me to do?

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Being this is, and this we come back down to basic trust and transparency.

[SPEAKER_02]: That is missing from so many places and not because people are trying to be assholes just because we didn't learn how to do this well.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the internet has not helped us.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's something simple.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to talk about at least one more boss.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Woof.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, trying to guess where you're going to go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's actually, there's so many good ones right now that I'm looking at and I didn't decide beforehand.

[SPEAKER_02]: I might do two more.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think the grinner and the trailiter have overlapping quality.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they do.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So let's talk about the grinner and the trailiter together as a group.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because these two are like, they're like so obnoxious, [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, the grinner was the boss who was incredibly kind and completely incompetent.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, new my kids' names.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I was working late, it would send a pizza to the house.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like all sorts of things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And was just so damn nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was really hard to hate him.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he was completely incompetent.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was in a role that was too big for him.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we were covering constantly.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was like propping up a puppet, constantly covering [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, managing up to the point that we're just doing the job.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's again, it's like, well, I'm not getting paid that salary.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not getting the same recognition and accolades at one point.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yes, I do believe in helping people in the workplace.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we should be helping each other out.

[SPEAKER_01]: But doing someone else's job is a completely different story.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, it's interesting because in some ways someone asked me, it's a little bit gaslighting, is it?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, yeah, versus, [SPEAKER_01]: Medusa, who was also like slightly incompetent, not to that level, but also was just angry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's easier to dislike that person and in some ways, they still didn't care about.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in this case, but they're so nice.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're so nice.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they're doing all of the things that are currently big and leadership training.

[SPEAKER_02]: Get to know your people.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Get to know your people.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: About their personal, like, there's a whole list, like a check check check check check check check.

[SPEAKER_01]: The Grinner had it down.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then the cheerleader, similar you would think, like, oh, it's like, also always smiling.

[SPEAKER_01]: Cheerleader was like, actually at one point one of my favorite bosses, because he was super confident.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like the corporate Pied Piper and everyone wanted to be around him.

[SPEAKER_01]: He gave you recognition.

[SPEAKER_01]: He gave you accolades.

[SPEAKER_01]: You knew what he was doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he also was toxicly positive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Positively toxic.

[SPEAKER_01]: Instagram real.

[SPEAKER_01]: What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can do this.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're super woman.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know and you're like, okay, the 10 things we needed to make our quarterly goal.

[SPEAKER_01]: We now only have four of those things and you still think we can do this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I talk about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: We had the serial innovation that was gangbusters and our supply chain partners told us we don't have this ingredient.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can no longer make the serial game over, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: and he's like, we can do it, let's add a million dollars to the forecast.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're like, what?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then what happens in my performance review is I'm dinged because we miss the million dollars.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, wait, now I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's happening?

[SPEAKER_01]: We have this discussion.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the cheerleader, that archetype of a boss in environments where market certain flux is really dangerous, particularly right now sitting in the US with tariffs and other [SPEAKER_01]: The environment has now changed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Your team can no longer achieve the goal that you set out and yet you aren't changing anything in terms of the inputs or the outputs and that is really dangerous.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I think this idea, I think you said it was funnier that now he's working on a keynote getting ready for a TED talk, leading with optimism to get the best out of your team.

[SPEAKER_01]: I laughed so much with all the stages everywhere, but this is coming to you soon.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: This toxic positivity is really dangerous in all situations because it is actively turning a blind eye to things that are wrong and missing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And not allowing any space for true problem solving or creative innovation because there's no problem to solve.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're fixering your head in the sand.

[SPEAKER_00]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like surrounding yourself with the S people.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to hear the problems, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You only want to hear S, yes, yes, it's possible when it's not.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So.

[SPEAKER_02]: just one more.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think so good.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can we talk about Tony Suprano?

[SPEAKER_01]: I knew I was like wondering if you'd go there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Tony Suprano, people are like, I think we're New Jersey girls right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to go to the bathroom here.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you're from New York.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm not from Boston, but there's been Jersey for Boston.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm the Massachusetts girl, too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, originally.

[SPEAKER_02]: millford Massachusetts.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, see that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're both Massachusetts girls who ended up in Jersey, which means a strong attitude sometimes very strong accents depends on how fine there is.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we understand loyalty and betrayal to an on a different level than most people.

[SPEAKER_02]: So let's talk about Tony's soprano the ball.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Tony's soprano.

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, not obviously, let me watch the sopranos if you don't, one of the best shows that I've watched in quite some time ever ever and he was the boss who could kill your career with one phone call.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he was the boss who demanded loyalty at all costs.

[SPEAKER_01]: He called me a rat.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was the talent border.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you are in his team, you're in his family.

[SPEAKER_01]: God forbid you think you own your career and you have an agreement that you'll work for him for a year.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you try to start to network to [SPEAKER_01]: not get out, actually just to move forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't trying to get out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, okay, I've done this for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And lost his mind lost his mind and did that really owe many people.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so many people.

[SPEAKER_02]: This was an important story because before you took this role, you were told very clearly that you would work at this role for one year.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And at the end of one year, you'd be moving on to bigger and better things and this was a stepping stone that was made clear that it was a stepping stone and then he changed his mind because he's the mob boss.

[SPEAKER_01]: You changed his mind and also because of someone pointed out I exceeded his expectations and what I was going to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this idea of I was making him look good right and so that's often what talent hoarders do is that you're making me look good.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to give you off.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to give you to someone else.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to make all the excuses right and again, agreement's change, but what never happened was.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, you've been in this role for a year, and you're working on this project, and I think if you stay for 18 months or 24 months, you're going to be able to see through the impact and have that in your resume, would you be open to that?

[SPEAKER_01]: That was not the conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: The conversation was how dare you meet a, thank you can leave my team.

[SPEAKER_01]: How dare you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: brutal.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, folks, there's other bosses in this book to read through and I highly recommend.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the things that is critical for people who are burning out and why they should read this is because [SPEAKER_02]: It might create a little bit of sense of separation between what's happening to me and how I'm responding to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We tend to the burnt out community tends to have a lot of self-judgment and self-blame and guilt for ending up in situations that are not of their creation.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that the benefit of this is seeing these archetypes and being like, oh my God, that's actually my boss.

[SPEAKER_02]: And oh my God, I'm not crazy and no wonder I feel like this.

[SPEAKER_02]: a little bit more like grace and compassion for yourself if you're in a burnt out place and you have a shitty boss like I think this is critical but what is your goal for this book?

[SPEAKER_01]: My goal is actually [SPEAKER_01]: Similar to things that you've all talked about is that I've talked about how to survive the toxic workplace, how to survive the toxic boss, but I sort of came to this moment where I thought what if I am the toxic boss and I've been a bad boss and chances are so of you so if you can identify.

[SPEAKER_01]: one or two bad behaviors you might have, which under pressure can get exacerbated and become a toxic behavior and whether you realize it or not is impacting those you work with those around you.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a book for aspiring leaders, currently there's some of our colleagues, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like how we treat each other in the workplace.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I really want people to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I love the example of the client, you shared, who said, [SPEAKER_01]: I know I have white rabbit tendencies, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: For me, it's micromanaging.

[SPEAKER_01]: Helicopter parent, helicopter manager.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know that about myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so when things are happening in my life, I can swing.

[SPEAKER_01]: When we're the other, and if you have people on your team that you can be vulnerable with and say, I'm working on this, help me watch for it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That will make all the difference.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So at the end of the day, we're back down to remembering that we're all human.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Finding a little bit of grace for each other.

[SPEAKER_02]: having transparent conversations, which requires trust, which is hard to find sometimes in these scenarios.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think this also goes to starting conversations that way, starting relationships that way, so that it's not so hard the further down you get.

[SPEAKER_02]: And also, like, everyone should go to something.

[SPEAKER_01]: stop mandating executive coaching.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's therapy people need and a lot of these situations.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything that I missed that you were like, I really was hoping to get this part out?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, listen, I'm so delighted you took the time to read the book.

[SPEAKER_01]: Time is a precious commodity.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's lots of juicy stories for a reason.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted people to read a business book that they could really relate to and then also think about how they could action.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so definitely most of midnight what could leaders can learn from bad bosses.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can find it on Amazon or a local independent bookstore.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I just thank you for the community you've built and such an honor to be here with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so so thrilled that you could come fried fam.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to repeat it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Some people, if you're not an author, if you're not in the creator space, you might not really truly understand how important things like pre-ordering books is.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is an absolutely critical part of our success.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so if you have any inclination, an inclination, a little, anything that happened in your body while we were having this conversation today.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want you to go right away to any of those places that are going to be all in the show notes and for your to your copy of this book so we can help me to be the success that she needs to be so that we can have better bosses and better work experiences and less or now me to thank you again for coming.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Until next time, Fred Fam.