[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the healing trauma podcast, a compassionate guide for those seeking to heal and thrive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Introducing your host, Manique Cohen, a certified trauma recovery coach and fellow traveller on the path to healing.

[SPEAKER_01]: In this podcast, we will engage in heartfelt conversation with experts in the field of trauma healing.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll explore ways to cultivate feelings safe in our bodies and in connection to others, so that we can be present to live the life we've been given, more fully and with more joy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Join us as we navigate the way towards a life restored.

[SPEAKER_01]: Introducing your host, Manik, Kobin.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, and welcome to the Healing Trauma Podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: My name is Dr.

Mark McNair, and I will be with you today.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am honored to have with me Dr.

Tian.

[SPEAKER_02]: She is a clinical psychologist, a senior fellow at the Meadows.

[SPEAKER_02]: She is the author of fifteen books, and so so much more.

[SPEAKER_02]: She is an expert in trauma, addiction, and recovery.

[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to Healing Trauma Podcast, Tian.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so glad to be here with you, Mark.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: You were introduced to her.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was New York.

[SPEAKER_02]: New York City.

[SPEAKER_02]: You took a class and you talk about an instruction that she gave you at the end of class.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to begin with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a wonderful story.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I got to Zirka just to give you context.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had been doing psychodroma for years.

[SPEAKER_00]: Trained by Sharon Wakeshyter Cruz, who was trained by Virginia Satyr, of family therapists.

[SPEAKER_00]: They did a form of role play and psychodroma that I was doing with clients.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was sculpturing primarily and it was very successful.

[SPEAKER_00]: With clients, we understood this is working for our client-based.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about maybe forty years ago.

[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't know much about trauma.

[SPEAKER_00]: It hadn't come into the vernacular yet.

[SPEAKER_00]: We knew this worked with addicts and ACAs, and people who were codependent, et cetera, who would not call PTSD.

[SPEAKER_00]: What concerned me, Mark, was that there was such an intense catharsis.

[SPEAKER_00]: The intensity of it met.

[SPEAKER_00]: the intensity of our inner world as traumatized people, but it it overshot.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when we would leave these treatment weeks, which sharing organized beautifully and put in treatment centers around the country, they would they would be too opened up.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this was as you understand, you're still a dilemma.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't really know what to do about it until my husband picked up this flyer in our mail and said, Tan, this is psycho and drama.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is everything you do because I had originally to create a drama with children in my twenties.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we could go into psychology.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I ignored it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't even read it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had two little children at the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: It worked.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's way down to the bottom of the mail and up to the top.

[SPEAKER_00]: You picked it up again.

[SPEAKER_00]: Months later, it's a town.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is in New York City.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is tomorrow.

[SPEAKER_00]: I should check this out.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is who you are.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I did.

[SPEAKER_00]: My children each had played it.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is the happens to answer it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I walked into that conference in the Roosevelt hotel.

[SPEAKER_00]: and it changed my life forever, my professional life.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sharing it changed my personal life and my professional life by introducing psychodrama, who understand how it was done by the creators.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Zirka became my mentor for the rest of her life.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that allowed me to become a real expert in what I do.

[SPEAKER_00]: to be honest, to be able to titrate it, to create the model we're talking about, relational trauma repair, systematic to have a career that I could feel in, in, not in control of that's not the right word, but with the nuance and expertise from method, the moment you were talking about, [SPEAKER_00]: was I met two of my trainers at this conference, Bob's Roca who didn't what he had then called somatodromas, which was a bed of its time, body dramas, a sensing understanding that tremble lives in the body before it was talked about in that way.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we broke out parts of the body and talked to them.

[SPEAKER_00]: He did as a warm-up, something beyond hilarious.

[SPEAKER_00]: He had people talking to their stiff next to their store-bought items, and the hilarity of it all appealed to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then I walked into Zerkamerano's room, the big name of the method.

[SPEAKER_00]: There were hundreds of people there.

[SPEAKER_00]: There was this quiet, modest looking woman, spoke softly, who captivated the entire group for however long it was.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she got us doing a guided imagery psychotermatically, and giving the child within us something it longed for.

[SPEAKER_00]: I went into that so deeply, giving my little inner child.

[SPEAKER_00]: I, you know what I did?

[SPEAKER_00]: I just sat her in a chair and combed her hair.

[SPEAKER_00]: I gave her attention.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was so in that what we call a psych Democratic trance, that when she ended everything and told everybody to leave, I didn't even hear her.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the person sitting next to me said, Tian, you know, it's so I remember coming out of it and realizing how profound that experience was.

[SPEAKER_00]: Dick Schwartz does a similar sort of internal family systems.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can do internal psychodrama.

[SPEAKER_00]: out and because I was in this state of mind and this is really what we're talking about like she said okay everyone now it's time to leave and it thank you for being here and so on and then she said no wait anybody can walk out of a room today fly out and I remember it was so completely unlike me but I picked up my bag in my books and so on and I just [SPEAKER_00]: read my wings and float at the room.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I felt completely okay during it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I have been flying out of that room ever since because it gave me a kind of a permission to not just be a very precise expert, which she taught me over the years in which I learned from her.

[SPEAKER_00]: but to be to ignite my own, which you called an autonomous healing center.

[SPEAKER_00]: Spirit and psychodrama, that's the goal.

[SPEAKER_00]: Ignite creativity, spontaneity, and the autonomous healing center in each of us is a profoundly bottom-up top-down method and it is body-mind and soul.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you took those classes and where did things go from there?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, at the moment I [SPEAKER_00]: found this method.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was really what happened.

[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, I signed up with Bob Seroka immediately.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was right in New York City.

[SPEAKER_00]: He trained, you know, it was accessible.

[SPEAKER_00]: He trained during the school day once again, so that could easily fit it into my mom part of my life.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I trained with Bob for the next, I think, is eight to ten years.

[SPEAKER_00]: weekly and a bit more.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then Zirka, I went to a five day retreat and run back.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is another story like this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had done a book called Drama Games.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was in a stage of editing and Zirka in this five days.

[SPEAKER_00]: And once again, it fit into my family life.

[SPEAKER_00]: I could go in the morning and come back at night from where we were at the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I handed her the manuscript it must have been.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, with the expectation, as if I was bringing colds to Newcastle, you know, just some day, if you ever have a moment that I'm doing this, she came to the next day.

[SPEAKER_00]: And again, there were hundreds of people in this group.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, maybe two hundred, hundred, fifty, two hundred.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she was lecturing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then she said, oh, and dare I read your book last night.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there was a [SPEAKER_00]: There were a couple of typos page ninety two that I really enjoyed it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's wonderful.

[SPEAKER_00]: May I would you like to meet afterwards afterwards?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm really quite a good editor.

[SPEAKER_00]: I edited all of Mariners work.

[SPEAKER_00]: Would you like me to go over for you and edit it?

[SPEAKER_00]: And what I did, I could no more say yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I had there were plenty of editors with the publisher, but what I did do [SPEAKER_00]: because I recognize, through listening to Zirka for five days, how ripped off, psychodrama had been.

[SPEAKER_00]: It took the empty chair from psychodrama and never gave credit, man.

[SPEAKER_00]: Alps, I took the method from psychodrama and, but people left that role reversal in the core features.

[SPEAKER_00]: And did not give credit.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I saw him in New York, genius, a tear.

[SPEAKER_00]: learned psychodrome of from psychodromitis.

[SPEAKER_00]: I even know that story from Zirka never gave credit.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that offended me so much because I've already by this time fallen in love with Zirka and thought it's too beautiful and this is too wrong.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I went through a book.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'd never heard about Zirodrome until now and put the word psychodrome in jail, marina, everywhere I could in the final edit.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so it appeared to psychodromitis is if I knew [SPEAKER_00]: about psychodrama in the writing of the book, that net at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just suddenly took up this mantle, maybe silly of me, but I couldn't help it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I felt they had given the world such a profound gift, and I committed at that point in my art to continuing that gift, but being as generous with it, and as true to the method and as acknowledging of its origins, [SPEAKER_00]: as they were, so generous.

[SPEAKER_02]: So many people have heard of PsychoDrawab, but they don't know about it could you attempt to kind of paint a picture of what it looks like and where you go with it and include some of the addiction stuff in, just things that you work with.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and interrupt me any time, Mark, because you're in a, you're very stute, so jump in wherever you like.

[SPEAKER_00]: In its simplest, psychodromids, a role playing method developed during the century by Jayle Marrano, who is considered the father of groups like a therapy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Marrano felt that people were beings of action and needed an action [SPEAKER_00]: oriented therapy in order to heal the full body mind and spirit.

[SPEAKER_00]: He got his inspiration from watching children in the park and Vienna play, always taking on roles, reversing roles, working out their conflicts, their hurts through role play.

[SPEAKER_00]: This was one of his profound insights.

[SPEAKER_00]: Also, he developed group therapy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do one another funny little story.

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it was all Freud at this moment in Vienna, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: So Marrano, Montessori, all of my heroes were in Vienna.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I wish I had lived at this time at Vignan.

[SPEAKER_00]: Marrano was an experimenter, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And he saw Freud as he once bumped into him in a conference as a famous conversation.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Freud said, I've heard about your work.

[SPEAKER_00]: What is it you do?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that was a rather [SPEAKER_00]: generous thing of right and we're, you know, being full of, you know, some of what he used to call megalomani a normalist.

[SPEAKER_00]: You tear their parts apart and put them back together again.

[SPEAKER_00]: You analyze their dreams.

[SPEAKER_00]: I give them the courage to dream again.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that is a much repeated couple of sentences that I'm just going to ask you, quote, to repeat that.

[SPEAKER_02]: That is such a full statement.

[SPEAKER_00]: I wish I had it in front of me, essentially the idea was I pull their parts apart, give them the stage on which to experience themselves, let their parts speak, let their parts interact with each other, and then therefore reintegrate with greater healing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you analyze their dreams.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now that's through words, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Through this profoundly embodied process, give them the courage to dream again.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in psychotromoids followed the lead of the protagonist, so you are enough putting words in your their heads.

[SPEAKER_00]: You are giving them the stage on which to find their own words, and that is one of the frequently made mistakes in psychodroma.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's one of the things, because the whole idea of psychodroma, now what I've developed, a more trauma-informed version of psychodroma, [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, to let the stage, Marina said the stage is enough.

[SPEAKER_00]: Ublena Ruda said, the poet, you know, we all need to dance or clumsy dance and sing our starry full song.

[SPEAKER_00]: We all need a stage on which to let our voices come out of us.

[SPEAKER_00]: We need to share our inner worlds.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is very critical that we do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is awakens the soul.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about the beginning for you of psychodrama.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious is how you began to integrate it into some of the work with addiction.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to quote you, loosely, you know, read this.

[SPEAKER_02]: You talk about the idea that when we grow up in homes with addiction, we essentially know ourselves that we can't feel and and it's adaptive at that point.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a run.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not so adaptive.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm wondering how that works with psychotron.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's that's easy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Be ahead.

[SPEAKER_00]: I found my voice through psychotron.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that was sharing Wake Shader cruise.

[SPEAKER_00]: I went to one of her five day retreats.

[SPEAKER_00]: We structured my family.

[SPEAKER_00]: They put that on a chair who is the alcoholic.

[SPEAKER_00]: I said, Oh, I don't think he was on a chair.

[SPEAKER_00]: He said, Well, baby, baby, simulation is addiction has a lot of power in the system.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then at one point, I was kind of getting annoyed or trying to talk to people very polite, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: I had never exercised as part of my voice.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they kind of handed me, they said, would you like to use a bataka?

[SPEAKER_00]: I suppose I started to get angry.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I sort of said, I don't think I couldn't do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they said, well, that's okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to bet try it if you want to.

[SPEAKER_00]: Here's a pillow if you want to.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember hitting the pillow a couple of times and then just wailing on it.

[SPEAKER_00]: us releasing decades of rage and anger.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if it were like anger, but rage, that had not come out.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we're not talking about, you know, a long period of time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm probably this is two minutes, but what it did for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: What's to change everything?

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember we were in those days.

[SPEAKER_00]: We really had fun incorporated into the five [SPEAKER_00]: day programs.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sharon was a great proponent of that as am I.

We did the skid.

[SPEAKER_00]: We danced at the end.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm saying that because I took on a role.

[SPEAKER_00]: I sang a song that was important to my mother.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I sang it in full voice and my family can sing in full voice, but I hadn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I do remember dancing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember somebody saying, do you want to dance and I'm missing?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I just want to dance by myself and kicking up my legs and jumping around it.

[SPEAKER_00]: the amount of energy that got released inside of me.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just remarkable and I went home.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was in a degree program and I just changed directions.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought this, I'm doing this forever.

[SPEAKER_00]: In my original thing was this feels so good to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I need to be around at five days a week.

[SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, I will learn to help other people.

[SPEAKER_00]: However, [SPEAKER_00]: It was a few years before I realized, therefore, I need to help myself, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that codependency, they'd fawning with so much a part of my psyche, that the only way I could imagine giving myself what I needed, what is by giving it to others.

[SPEAKER_00]: But eventually, I understood the concept of self-care.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that gave me the understanding that this method treats whatever I have, like no other method.

[SPEAKER_00]: This blows words out of the park.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had had done [SPEAKER_00]: therapy with words before, and it was wonderful, but it was nothing like this for releasing what I now understand to be complex trauma.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then, four years later, I revamped it psychodroma, and then it all fit together because I could correct the problems.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I was working as the therapist by now using the method.

[SPEAKER_00]: At this point, I was at [SPEAKER_00]: I was a therapist.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just changed direction.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know what I did.

[SPEAKER_00]: I changed directions and I added another like year to my program, reaching months and I didn't care at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I was already working as a therapist and I work for Sharon in her treatment weeks for years and was trained by her.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where I became aware of what more needed to happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when I found psychodrama, I became trained to get that to happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, even psychodrama is not trained the way I was trained these days.

[SPEAKER_00]: because it's too far away from the creators.

[SPEAKER_00]: I did a learn a very classical form of the method and I stand by that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't use things like scarves or props or things that are not part of psychodrama that now people think are, but they are not.

[SPEAKER_00]: The method is a very clean, very simple, five element.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have the stage, the protagonist, the director, the people who play roles, and the [SPEAKER_00]: group audience.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that is, oh, I didn't tell that group story.

[SPEAKER_00]: I digressed.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to hear the group?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, definitely.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So this is psychodrama.

[SPEAKER_00]: Those are those are the basis of psychodrama.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I will finish that sentence before I tell you the other one.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there are techniques.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we've got the five main elements and there are the techniques of doubling, which is standing behind someone and speaking the inner life.

[SPEAKER_00]: that which they are not able to articulate from, say, this chair that I'm in, if you were my therapist and you were doing virtual, so I could drama with me.

[SPEAKER_00]: You might say, Tiana, you will understand behind your chair and double for what might be on the inside of you, that isn't coming out from this role.

[SPEAKER_00]: So then I would drop down and get deeper.

[SPEAKER_00]: Other people can also double for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: You could the director can double for the protagonist.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's doubling and role reversal, and this is what Circa O is referred to as a scene upon none of Sacodrama, or that without which there is no true Sacodrama, is reversing roles, what that does more.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is what I have observed as key, because I did Sacodrama without it for so many years.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sacodrama is too powerful a method not to use role reversal.

[SPEAKER_00]: What it does is empower you this role.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if it's reoriented, what it empowers is this region blame, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That's the catharsis of an abreaction.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's an important part of healing.

[SPEAKER_00]: You need to get it out of your body and add your mind.

[SPEAKER_02]: If I could interrupt you just one second, hey, you, you, I had talked about the fact that psychodron was so much different than talk therapy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's what you're talking about that there's actually moving into different roles.

[SPEAKER_02]: You are so good.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a perfect, it's a perfect little connection you've made.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's really good.

[SPEAKER_00]: Very, yeah, because that is where it varies from talk therapy.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's very good.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's great.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's the Nexus.

[SPEAKER_00]: So when you do a role play and you do not reverse roles.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this, you're obviously saying, because this is a problem in any kind of therapy that it over empowers the client.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they don't get the idea of the other person's perspective.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have found that in your obviously finding it too, a real problem today in therapy, you empower somebody's point of view without ever introducing the other point of view.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you might strengthen the self, but you weaken the relationship, the capacity for relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: So psychodermal with role reversal, [SPEAKER_00]: is automatic experiential and body perspective taking.

[SPEAKER_00]: Reverse roles.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'm radiating, if I'm blaming, I'm reversing roles.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I am seeing myself from the outside doing that.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's not analysis, that's direct experience.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then I have to say it's Tiana raging at her mother or something like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I reverse roles into my mother.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm seeing me doing that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm seeing it from the perspective of [SPEAKER_00]: my mother.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what that does for me as Tion is allow me to stand for a moment in the shoes of my mother and experience me from the outside.

[SPEAKER_00]: It also has the interesting effect of being separating.

[SPEAKER_00]: You'd think people are scared to roll versus they're scared they don't have enough self to ever come back to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's when I don't use role reversal right away.

[SPEAKER_00]: I build the self first slowly.

[SPEAKER_00]: However, what you find in going back and forth is that you strengthen, you reenter the self with more awareness.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it also is freeing from the frozen relational dynamic that lives inside the psyche, because as I stand in my mother's shoes, I recognize that what she delivered to me was not about me.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was about who she was.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that is a profoundly freeing concept.

[SPEAKER_00]: One thing I think we really miss with object relations theory, the misunderstanding, the full part of object relationship theory, we internalize the full relational dynamic.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't internalize the person.

[SPEAKER_00]: We internalize the relationship we had with them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that is what we continue to reenact and play out and choose new people.

[SPEAKER_00]: And go through life choosing my dysfunctional mother and trying to master that dysfunction or get rid of it by making it about a new person.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we're talking to the wrong person at the wrong place at the wrong time.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I could drama.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's us through role surrogates, talk to the right person at the right place at the right time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I am Tian, the teenager who needs to say all this to my mother, who was then in her four years or something.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I need to reverse roles with that mother and understand her plate at that moment and feel the difference between us.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't necessarily get much out of talking to my mother today.

[SPEAKER_00]: We have it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a different time in place.

[SPEAKER_00]: The child in me needs to say it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the child in me needs to unfreeze.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what you referring to when you talked about how trauma shuts us down.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's how we lose touch with ourselves.

[SPEAKER_00]: All of the feelings through trauma, frees an nervous system.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we carry that frozen us forever if we don't do something to intervene on it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we just keep repeating on the same loop, the same loop.

[SPEAKER_00]: or a psychogram allows us to put that loop on the stage and then move through it, move through it, terror, the parts apart, be as them, speak as them, move as them.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is, in itself, relieving and reintegrating.

[SPEAKER_00]: The model I've developed, relational trauma-pair sociometrics, warms clients up to that.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is the other thing that people do psychodrama too soon, too much.

[SPEAKER_00]: and too big.

[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the healing needs to happen through what marina called sociometry.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that story I'm going to tell you connects to this too.

[SPEAKER_00]: Marina has a triatic system, psychotomistosyometry group psychotherapy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Psychodromic is what we've just talked about the role playing part.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sociometry is the group dynamic part.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is he.

[SPEAKER_00]: brings the dynamics out within a indie group or any family system or any world system like the internet and charts them on a piece of paper.

[SPEAKER_00]: and then concretizes them through his socio-metrics.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love socio-metrics and I have taken it down the road through floor checks my own socio-metric because his local grammar spectrum are just fabulous.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're just not enough.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I created floor checks to address addiction treatment.

[SPEAKER_00]: In addiction treatment, we have often pides therapists who are overwhelmed who have groups with a rolling admission.

[SPEAKER_00]: They know experiential therapy works the best.

[SPEAKER_00]: However, you can't just keep doing big psychodromas.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's too revving up.

[SPEAKER_00]: It also can be too much for the people in early sobriety.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, floor checks.

[SPEAKER_00]: I modeled both on the twelfth step program and Montessori.

[SPEAKER_00]: Montessori worked with a prepared environment, so she thought the teacher should be a catalyst between the child and the environment.

[SPEAKER_00]: And twelfth step is healing through identification and co-regulation.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I combine those concepts and make my prepared environment.

[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of a feeling check, I was everybody feeling check-in, where you lie half the group is lying and you want my hand great, I'm excited and I put them on the floor.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to lie when you give somebody the choice.

[SPEAKER_00]: Choose a feeling you're experiencing right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Physically walk over to it, stand near it, now share about that feeling.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now what this does, if I can break it down for you, [SPEAKER_00]: provide choice, trauma undermines choice, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So I've got people on their feet grounded in the room and making a choice.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a big deal right away.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're choosing what relates for them, which feeling relates for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we're creating common ground because they're not the only one who's going to choose sad.

[SPEAKER_00]: So then we've got the twelve-step common ground healing through identification.

[SPEAKER_00]: We have mapping possibilities.

[SPEAKER_00]: What happens in Trump, American, you will already know this.

[SPEAKER_00]: The prefrontal cortex in the hippocampus dialed down during traumatic moments while the limbic system operates.

[SPEAKER_00]: We need to fight, flee, freeze or fawn to stay safe as you were talking about that's adaptive until it isn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: So when we do that, [SPEAKER_00]: We are not thinking about what we're feeling and we're not time stamping and creating context around what we're feeling because the thinking when the prefrontal cortex is down regulated, the hippocampus where you would time stamp and create context is down regulated.

[SPEAKER_00]: While it allows us to get out of harm's way fast without thinking, you do not want to think about getting out of the way of trek you want to run.

[SPEAKER_00]: If no adult, say in a home with addiction, a home with karma, a home that's overwhelmed.

[SPEAKER_00]: If nobody comes afterwards and says darling, you look, you know, children freeze, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: If nobody helps you unfreeze that, it stays in, you know, little children.

[SPEAKER_00]: They've sold this at that part.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's, they do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if nobody says come on, let's sit over on my lapling.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it takes time and it takes attention and it takes calm to create a safe enough lap so that child can then allow themselves cry.

[SPEAKER_00]: Allow themselves to say, well, I did that over there.

[SPEAKER_00]: and get, and it takes some, some ease of the self to allow them to be angry.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why did that happen?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why did that?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why did that?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why did that?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why did that?

[SPEAKER_00]: All of that has to happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then the parent has to help them make sense of the feelings they shut down.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what alcoholic is going to say come over and sit on my lap, and you're going to feel safe sitting on their lap?

[SPEAKER_00]: Or what alcoholic the next day after drunken rage is going to say, [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so sorry, I frightened you last night.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was drunk out of my mind.

[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the other parent is generally so overwhelmed and full of denial.

[SPEAKER_00]: They don't want to know what's happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: So they're going [SPEAKER_00]: When you just get your books and get your, you know, just eat your breakfast and go, I'd get I have a good day.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's the alcohol.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you're like it, because that happens repeatedly, it becomes complex, post-traumatic stress, complex meaning, relational meaning repeated over time.

[SPEAKER_00]: If we don't unfreeze those feelings that you were talking about earlier in childhood, and there's some intervention to help us, or some safe place we can go, a neighbor, a church, a synagogue, then [SPEAKER_00]: We carry that into adult, but that's the postpart of post traumatic stress.

[SPEAKER_00]: It lives, it surfaces decades later.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what are the triggers in the same by grouping it Vietnam era?

[SPEAKER_00]: These guys would come home and they'd be in a target parking lot and here a car backfire and hit the graph because suddenly that a target parking lot became the battlefield in June.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what's our [SPEAKER_00]: about a ground as ACAs.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's relationships.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's creating a family of our own.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's when we partner when we parent.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's why I've written this book and I'm just an editing now growing up with addiction.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's coming out in my art show next year with sounds true.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I talk about.

[SPEAKER_00]: How we.

[SPEAKER_00]: How we partner.

[SPEAKER_00]: how we are in the workplace, how we are in friendships because of this carry trauma.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because unless we unpack it in adulthood, we're going to repeat it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's almost like it needs to be metabolized.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Anyverted and metabolized at the easiest and most direct route.

[SPEAKER_00]: As you point out, is incorporating roll over a soul and in court, in order to do roll over, so you need to do it, but you don't need to do these huge psychodermas.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's why I did this model.

[SPEAKER_00]: I really after maybe fifteen years understood this.

[SPEAKER_00]: You need to do, you need to do the remapping.

[SPEAKER_00]: You need to do the role play.

[SPEAKER_00]: I break it down so it's safer and more manageable.

[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing, I'm just recently thinking it does.

[SPEAKER_00]: Many people with neurodiversity has become a big thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of people with neurodiversity apparently, according to Dr.

Tony, menaires, like I'm saying that, right, have hippocampal lesions.

[SPEAKER_00]: Anyone who's been traumatized [SPEAKER_00]: needs to find a method where they feel safe enough and it's a calm enough thing so that they can come to the surface, do their role play, do their sharing or whatever it is they do in a safe enough way without fear of retaliation so that their thinking mind, their nervous system can calm down and their hippocampus can all of those can come back on board and make new sense of the situation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, Tatiana seems like with this modality with psychiatroma, it would help in some ways with fragmentation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, because you can talk to various parts of the self.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can talk to not only parts of the self, you can talk to other people.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can talk to experiences.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like one of the things that can happen in trauma is that you because your limbic system is unhailert.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have all these sensory memories in your body, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, you've been thrown down on the ground.

[SPEAKER_00]: You might not remember the act of being sexually abused as well as you remember the feeling of a grass, you know, digging into your back or a twig.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you can talk to these various fragments of memory.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can break them out into roles.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can talk to the part of yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: For example, dissociation.

[SPEAKER_00]: You cannot talk to yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: I might say to a client where where were you?

[SPEAKER_00]: And they'll say on the ceiling, or way over there, and I'll say, so who could play that part of you?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and show us on the state where would they be standing?

[SPEAKER_00]: What would you want to say to that part of you?

[SPEAKER_00]: Reverse roles, what do you want to say as that part of you back?

[SPEAKER_00]: And just by doing this, moving back and forth with role reversal, that parts start to come back towards the self and land back in the self.

[SPEAKER_00]: That would be an example.

[SPEAKER_02]: As we come to a close, thank you for being here.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to thank you for spending this time.

[SPEAKER_02]: If people want to get in touch with you, we'll find out more about you.

[SPEAKER_02]: How would they do that to you on come?

[SPEAKER_00]: And if they want to know more about [SPEAKER_00]: This, the model, our relational trauma pairs socioeometrics on the nav bar.

[SPEAKER_00]: It says relational trauma pair.

[SPEAKER_00]: Click it and I've got another website just about that and how you can get a certificate.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's quite easy to learn and train in if you're therapists and you're interested.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then I have books, some of the books that are about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Symmetric and treating adult relational trauma on that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I will add a video tape line.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we will put some of that in the notes for the show.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we got again.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for being here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me, Mark.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's always a pleasure to be with you.