Previously on Queen of the Con we ran into these people.

They were like, you know, if you could give us a ride, we wouldn't have to steal anything that we would just have to like bring them there and then park in the parking lot and then just you know, drive away.

They told us, like would pay you like probably like one hundred dollars to two hundred dollars a day.

And so we were like, all right, you.

Don't have a roof over your head.

What do you have to lose?

You have nothing to lose, nothing to lose.

And this poor girl got kicked out of the house at eighteen and she fell in literally with the wrong crowd.

She was homeless.

She fell in with other homeless and that's where she learned how to shoplift for money.

Yeah, well it's you know, it's survival.

It's survival, Yeah, because you have to survive.

You have to do what you need to do to get by.

My conversation with a professional shoplifter changes my perspective on everything.

You know, I don't want to do this for like every it means to an end, you know, it's it means for us to like just get like enough money, Like because like we were having to pay for hotel like every if we wanted to shower like whatever.

Meanwhile, fences like Michelle Mack are making millions of dollars on the backs of all these low level shoplifters who are literally living hand to mouth.

What Michelle Mack was doing was human trafficking.

What Yeah, if you really think about it, right, the definition of human trafficking is you're basically exploiting a human being and forcing them, coercing them or paying them to do a service for ill gotten games, for illegal activity, human trafficking.

I'm Jonathan Walton, and this is Queen of the Con Season six, The California Girls, episode four.

She may have stolen half my wedding cake.

I'd be very curious to see if the prosecuting attorneys are filing human trafficking charges against her, because right now, because of what's going on in the world we.

Live in, that's a hot topic.

Yeah, So I'm kind of wondering why no one in the media that's reporting on it has called it what it also is, human trafficking.

Right.

Sergeant Jordan Marakian again proposing a novel theory on how to get the Michelle matt case the attention it deserves.

You put that in a headline, you're going to get a ton of clicks and a ton of traction.

But calling it organized retail theft, I think people are going to say, well, who's the victim?

Right, consumers are getting items at a discount on Amazon, These companies like Ulta are making millions of dollars.

Who's being hurt by it?

Which is precisely why I'm concerned that she's not going to get as much time as you or I maybe would hope she would.

They're going to minimize what she did.

She was trying to send her kids to college.

Right, she was operating a side business, and it got a little out of control.

These girls that she had stealing for her, they did that of their own free will.

You know, she didn't force them.

That's why they're going to say it's not human trafficking, but it is.

It's one hundred percent human trafficking.

It's coercion.

Right, she dangled the money, she made the requirement.

She would buy them plane tickets and text them instructions.

And she was controlling them.

She was, and she was using her financial situation, her power, her influence to coerce them into doing things.

But she was paying them to do things that she knew were illegal, and in some ways, I would argue she was exploiting them because of their situation.

You're going to go after vulnerable people to do things like that.

Like if somebody approaches you or I and they say, hey, Jonathan, I'll pay you one thousand dollars to walk into alt beauty and steal, You're gonna say no.

But if you live in a community where you don't have as much money or resources and somebody says to you, I'll give you one thousand dollars to do X and Y, you'll do it.

And that's what she was doing.

I never thought of it that way, right, And I'm not trying to paint the picture that the people stealing were victims.

They knew what they were doing too.

But look at the people that are being arrested from that operation.

They all live in communities that aren't as affluent as Bonsaw, where Michelle lives.

They're doing it to feed their families, they're doing it as a profession.

Doesn't make it right, But what she's doing is she's taking advantage of their situation for her own financial gain.

According to investigators, Michelle Mack has been running her retail theft empire for more than ten years, though she's only been living in that Tuscan style mansion just north of San Diego for the past three years.

Before Michelle McK and her husband Kenneth moved to California, back in twenty sixteen, they were living in another opulent mansion in Gilbert, Arizona, a city of about a quarter million people just outside Phoenix, and at that time, Michelle Mack was starting up her first wedding venue business.

She approached me at the end of one of our performances at the Bridle Show.

That's Chadlockerdize, a master dance instructor and founder of dancewith Chad dot com.

So you teach people how to dance for their wedding correct yep.

So whenever you see those, you know, I see those wedding videos on the news sometimes or they go viral on YouTube where the bride and groom come out and all of a sudden, the music starts and there's this crazy choreographed dance they do that impresses everyone.

That's you, that's us.

Yep, very cool.

Back in twenty sixteen, Chad and his company of dancers were at a wedding expo just outside Phoenix when Michelle Mack made a beeline over to him, emphatically urging him to attend the wedding expo she was hosting at her new mansion.

Weeks later, she approached me and said, hey, you know, I've got this amazing.

I mean, it was a little bit over the top to me, but I didn't know if it was.

Maybe I was just tired.

But as I look back and I'm starting to remember it, she was a little bit over the top about this, this glorified mansion and this phenomenal venue.

And I had this feeling, and had I gone with the feeling that I nor would have politely turned her down, because you know, after the bridal show, gosh, we would hit probably thirty to forty five open houses, and most of the open houses were already established relationships with us, so she was new.

When you say open houses, these are wedding venues.

Yes.

The people in the crowd watching you at these open houses, at these events, they are presumably brides and grooms planning a wedding, looking for people to hire to help them put the wedding on.

Correct orgrooms and grooms or brides and brides.

I like, how inclusive you are?

Yes, absolutely absolutely.

I'm a married gay man and so I appreciate that.

Oh well there you go.

Yeah yeah.

So what was her pitch to you?

You say she was over the top.

She approaches you, and what's her pitch?

What what made her appear over the top to you?

It was it was just a was just a gut feeling that I had.

It wasn't anything really that she did wrong.

I just thought she was over selling herself and the venue a bit.

That's the feeling I had.

And so she gave me her card and then she said, here, you know, this is the date, this is the time.

You know, I really need a commitment today, you know.

And I said, tell you what, let me just let me at least look at my book and get back to you later tonight or tomorrow.

And so we ended up doing the event.

Michelle Mack had dubbed her recently purchased forty five hundred square foot mansion San Tan Mountains Weddings and Events because it faced that picturesque mountain range boasting gorgeous desert views strewn with cacti framing thousands of jagged rock formations colored in infinite shades of deep crimson.

The mountains here are gorgeous.

The mansion itself was beautiful.

Chad and his team from Dance with Chad dot Com attended Michelle Max's open house in late twenty sixteen.

So she had bought this mansion, and part of her pitch to you was, come to this event I'm hosting.

There'll be a ton of prospective brides and grooms and grooms and grooms and brides and brides there.

You know, yep, they can hire you there.

You know yep.

Did she seem desperate?

No, it was almost a over the top I've got this going on.

You need to be a part of it.

If you're anybody.

She didn't seem desperate.

She seems like she.

Had the best game in town, and you'd be lucky to be a part of it.

Exactly, very confident, over the top confident.

But literally moments after Chad and his da answers arrive, they start regretting they ever came, and Michelle Mack seems oblivious to it all.

Suddenly there's a disgusting smell in the air, and you won't believe where it's coming from.

After the break, Welcome back to Queen of the Cohn.

A professional dance team shows up to a wedding expo at Michelle Max's new Arizona mansion and they're pissed.

They knew we were coming specifically to dance, and I'm like, you need to provide a floor.

Where's the floor you want?

My girls are going to be dancing on brick with grooves on that and heels.

I don't think so.

I Am not going to have my ladies dance on that floor in heels and hurt themselves.

And what was wrong with the floor For people who don't know dance.

Yeah, it's it was not only bricks, Jonathan, but there were grooves between the bricks where the heel would get stuck.

I'm like, no, yeah, that's a disaster waiting to happen, right right right.

And the other weird thing is like we were outside and we're up against the back wall and I'm like, I smell, like that is that poop?

That's kind of disgusting?

What is that?

You know?

And then all of a sudden we hear and so there was a cow farm on the other side.

Of the wall, and so I went up to her.

I'm like, we're not going to stay by that wall.

You need to find a different spot for us.

So, you know, at this point, two strikes the dance floor, the manure, and then it was just an odd feeling throughout.

When I went around and chatted with some of the other vendors, they're like, yeah, we're not sure that this was a great idea, but she pumped it up so much and it was not well attended at all, and the other vendors were very unhappy.

In fact, a few folded up their stuff and left.

But when I saw the look on some of the vendors' faces, they were they were disgusted, is what I saw in their face.

Yeah, so she promised this big event, like she's the new kid on the block and to take all the business from everyone.

You should attend this, you attend, and it was a bust.

It sounds like not a lot of people showed up.

Yeah, we're like, we're out of here.

She promised us, this promises that you know, it stinks here, it's you know, we're gone, We're leaving.

And after chatting his team left.

He actively avoided Michelle Mack from that point on, but I've people in the Phoenix area were drawn to her.

I went to a wedding expo in like October of twenty sixteen, and she was advertising her house as a venue.

That's a woman we're calling Brittany, not her real name, because she wants to remain anonymous.

She first met Michelle Mack at a wedding expo outside Phoenix eight years ago.

So she had like a display of flowers and like all this stuff.

And I actually had had a deposit on a different venue because my wedding was.

In like less than six months.

But she was able to give me a price cheaper than that and include like way more.

Really yes, like like it was less than five grand to book with her, and it included all like everything I needed, And what.

Were other people charging for the same thing?

So are my original venue and anywhere else?

Like the original venue I booked with was the cheapest one I found before her, and like my original venue was still gonna be.

I think it was just under four but you only got like.

A few hours, and it didn't include anything for the tables.

It's like you get the tables and chairs, but you don't get center pieces.

It maybe included tablecloths, but Michelle included everything, like everything, all any like signage.

She made this like light wall.

She had, you know, like strung lights, like every She had fake florals, so I only had to buy bouquets and boutineers, but she had everything else.

So I got a venue, I got set up, I got to be there the entire day, set up.

Tear down.

They did all of that, tables, chairs, linens, florals, centerpieces, signage.

She actually had a florist come and like arrange the fake flowers that were there.

She had a mother in law suite, so the little house that's part of her house, so it was almost like a little studio apartment.

And her price automatically included I think one or two nights, and I added one or two nights because I know I had it for three nights, but.

It still was.

It was actually less than forty five hundred for all of that.

For all of that, and I had, I mean, I had beautiful decord, like the string lights she had covered her house with the side of her house that would be like the backdrop where the dancing was, with like some sort of drapery and lights so it didn't look.

Like you're in front of a house.

You look like you're in front of like a magical twinkle light wall.

All of that, Oh, that was included.

And they had so and she had not only set up for ceremony right, they set up in her yard for the ceremony, They had cocktail hour by the pool setup, and then they reset the ceremony area for the reception as well, like they did, like they did all of the work.

I did not have to hire any laborers aside from my caterer and bartender.

Wow, FYI, I'm posting pictures of Michelle max Arizona mansion and wedding setup at Queen of the Con on Instagram so you can see what Britney's talking about.

I mean, Britney really shopped around like most brides to be, and she got quotes from a dozen other wedding venues.

Most of them wanted upwards of ten thousand dollars to provide the same stuff Michelle Mack was providing for forty five.

Hundred, so I think I actually got a pretty good deal.

Well, when she was orchestrating this shoplifting ring and she would take all the stolen stuff and put it on Amazon.

She was selling it for like half price.

So like it's so eerie that she was kind of doing a similar thing with you, Like she's underpricing everyone, And is that how she got you totally?

How many people were at your.

Wedding ninety eight?

Oh my god, so you had a wedding for ninety eight people for forty five hundred dollars.

Yes, Jesus, that's a.

Steel Yeah, it really is.

Wow.

And Britney's wedding goes off without a hitch.

It's just amazing.

And the mansion itself is a spectacle that all her guests were awed by.

It almost looks like a more modest castle, I would say, because of the brick.

So when you pull up, it has like an archway, like there's a courtyard before you get to her front door.

So like you see this beautiful brick and then you like go through the courtyard and then like there's her front door.

I mean, her decor style was still like at least on the inside of her house was still very much like it was age appropriate.

I'd say, like women her age love that brown and red decory, you know what I'm talking.

About, Like from the early two thousands.

I don't know if it's like supposed to be like a Tuscany or something.

The house is big and beautiful.

She said she had like pro athletes says and stuff like that.

Like she was in a really nice neighborhood in Arizona.

I mean, everyone had a really good time.

It was a really beautiful she had a really beautiful backyard.

I think another issue she ended up having was I don't think her neighbors liked it very much that she did it.

It's not like rural like she had neighbors.

So we were allowed a couple cars by her house.

She had a decent sized driveway and she lived in a cul de sac.

But then most of my guests did need to park down the street and I forgot about this.

It did include a shuttle as well, for the price less than five thousand dollars.

Yes, included a shuttle too.

I had heard from someone who performed at the venue, who was a dancer, that there were like cows nearby and the smell of cowpoop.

Do you recall smelling any cowpoop?

I don't.

I remember at the time I was living in the Gilbert area.

That always smelled like cowpoop at night.

So if it did, like, I don't think it would have felt any different, Like I don't think I noticed it.

But the most amazing thing about Britney's wedding is the fact that her and her future husband never had to dig themselves into a financial hole to pay for it.

I don't think we had a crude much debt from it.

Like we really gave like what we had, you know, to do it, And.

I mean, if we did, we were debt free by the end of that year.

It makes me wonder, though, do you think any of the stuff she got you for such a great price, do you think it was stolen?

I mean, I don't know why else you would do it that cheap.

And what Britney and her fiance witness with their own eyes in Michelle Max's garage puts everything into focus.

After the break Welcome back to Queen of the con Brittany is recalling some weird stuff both her and her then fiance now husband observed at Michelle max Arizona mansion during the run up to their wedding.

My husband, He remembers her saying that her husband worked in.

Wholesale You mean as a way of explaining why this is so inexpensive for you.

Guys, Like why she has so much stuff.

She had a huge garage, like she.

Had I don't even know how many car garages she had in her house in Arizona, but she had so much stuff.

She told me, like she had storage units with more things because it didn't even like fit in her house, Like she has so much much stuff.

Keep in mind, Brittany had her wedding in early twenty seventeen, and according to the California Department of Justice, by late twenty twenty three, Michelle Mack had been running her retail theft ring for more than ten years, so it's entirely possible that Britney and her husband were witnessing an actual crime in progress.

You did get a look at her garage, right, What did her garage look like?

It was open, I mean it was just full, just full of stuff because she said her husband like was telling her she was getting out of control, like getting so much stuff.

I mean it just you know, when they arrested her at her mansion in San Diego that she also did weddings out of her garage was full of stuff too, except according to police, it was stuff that was stolen stuff she fenced, stuff she bought from her ring of shoplifters she organized.

But the similarity just strikes me, given you know, her garage was full of stuff totally.

The other weird thing Brittany remembers about her wedding would have really pissed off most brides, but Brittany let it go at the time, though now she feels differently.

Until you approached me, I wouldn't have thought that this would have happened.

But she may have stolen half of my wedding cake.

What because you know, she did tell me, you know, like if there's leftover food or cake or whatever, you're gonna need you need someone to come and collect that.

And I'm like, okay, so we assigned family to go do that.

Well, whoever was supposed to go get the cake.

They went and they were like, hey, where's the cake And they're like, I don't know.

Half of my cake, Like two hundred and fifty dollars worth of cake is gone.

It's a very nice cake shop out here, Lisa's own cake.

It's so so good, And yeah, I didn't get any leftovers.

I didn't know until I got back from my honeymoon, and my aunt was like, so we weren't able to find your leftover cake, and Michelle said she didn't know where it was, and I'm like, what do you mean, Like she it was in her kitchen before we cut it, and then where would it go after that?

No, one just like you couldn't just take it without having a container.

I don't know why you would want to take someone's cake, but I mean it was good.

I mean to use it at another wedding or sell it, you know.

Like I think she did have a wedding because my wedding was on a Thursday.

She did have a wedding on Friday or Saturday after me.

And was it a lot of cake that was left?

It was it was like.

Half the cake that I like, the only used half of it, is what my aunt said.

There was like half left.

Not everybody ate cake.

It's supposed to be enough for We had like a two tier and then I think I had a sheet cake for like cuts, and it was supposed to be more than enough for a hundred people, but not everybody like took some.

And there was definitely.

My aunt saw the leftovers, but then when they went to go get them they She's like, I don't know what.

She didn't even say it was gone, she just said she didn't even know where it was.

God, the fact that it went missing is just so bizarre.

It's just like why, like who had just like no, no guest is gonna just like take it?

You know.

I have a theory.

So I was at a really high end wedding one time with three hundred other people.

I mean, you could have literally bought a house with what this couple spent on their wedding.

It was crazy.

And the wedding cake was this giant, white, glittering castle six feet high.

It had its own rolling platform and everything.

I kid you not.

So after the bride and groom cut that showstopper of a cake to much fanfare, it was wheeled away into the back, out of sight.

Then dozens of tuxedo waiters marched out, carrying individual slices of cake to serve to everyone.

There was just one problem in my mind, and again, having been the victim of a con artist, I'm always looking for the scam.

There was no way on earth that those waiters could have cut three hundred pieces of cake in the few minutes between when that giant cake castle was wheeled out of sight to when the waiters marched out with slices supposedly from that same cake.

No way.

Come to find out, I was right, That giant, six foot white glittering cake castle was a fake cake just for show.

It's actually a thing some couples do, and it might explain why someone like Michelle Mack would want to repurpose someone else's left over wedding cake.

That's so weird.

So it's possible if she stole the cake, the half of your cake that was left over, It's possible she could have just used it and did the bait and switch where they cut a fake cake, went to the back and cut up your cake and handed out slices of cake to everyone, and no one was the wiser.

I mean, definitely possible.

It's just like, my brain just doesn't work that way.

So I'm like, why would you do that?

I mean, why else steal that much cake?

She can't eat it.

You said the cake served one hundred people.

You had fifty people's worth of cake left over, Like, yeah, I can't eat cake for fifty people.

Her and her husband, Yeah, what's more likely he has a wedding venue where she holds weddings and events.

Now she has leftover cake for fifty people.

She's probably gonna incorporate it into some other event.

Yeah, that's a lot of cake.

How did you find out Michelle Mack was arrested for allegedly spearheading this eight million dollar shoplifting ring?

Your email?

I was like, is this a weird scam?

Like where are you?

Like?

How do you know this?

Like what?

So I immediately like lifted up and I showed my husband and he looked it up.

He was like, no, that really happened.

And then and he looked at your podcast, He's like, it's legit.

So initially you thought I was trying to scam you by sending me an article.

Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

I'm like, there are weird scammers out there these days, Like you don't know, right, Like you have to check all the stuff.

So here's how I found you.

There was a picture of your wedding on her Facebook.

She still has the Facebook page up for Santan Mountain Wedding and Events, And I was just going through all the brides and grooms she was bragging about that held her events there, and you were one of them, and I ran a background check on you and your husband, and I found a potential email that might be yours, and I took a shot and I emailed you and he responded.

So I was not trying to scam you.

I was just trying to do what we're doing now, like get the story and it's fascinating.

Yeah, yeah, what was your reaction when you found out she'd been arrested for the shoplifting ring?

Now it makes me think, like, oh, that's how she was able to.

Do what she did for such a low price.

I mean it was It was really a blessing to me.

Otherwise they would have been getting married at some barn I didn't even like.

And I had to get married there on a Tuesday because that was the only day available from that venue because they're the cheapest one before her.

So it really like to be able to have my dream wedding and not like.

Break the bank was just such a huge blessing.

Like didn't think about it at the time.

I just thought like, oh, she's just getting started, like and then now I'm.

Like, oh, she was probably like taking from a bunch of other people to she like planned robin hood.

To me, how is the marriage.

Are you and your husband happy?

You were happy with the wedding, You're happy now here we are seven years later?

Yeah, yes, we are still married.

It's been seven years.

So we have a kid and we congratulations, a couple of dogs.

So I mean, I mean we love it living in Arizona.

So and what do you and your husband do for a living.

I'm a hairstylist, so I have a salon in Arizona with two employees.

And then my husband is.

The director of talent acquisitions for a tech company.

Oh.

I came into work and I was like, crazy thing.

My wedding venue.

Owner from like seven years ago just got arrested for Like I'm like, it's so random.

And client was like, oh my gosh, I heard about that.

But before Michelle Mack gets into the wedding venue business in Gilbert, Arizona, she creates a website to sell hand painted nail files from the Czech Republic.

One of her former associates is actually stunned by Michelle Mack's recent arrest and tells The Daily Mail it made me stick to my stomach because she has kids.

She definitely was not involved in anything like this.

When we work together because I would have never gotten involved with anything stupid like that.

I'm still in shock.

Michelle Mack not only loses her wedding venue business in Arizona, but she also defaults on a nearly two hundred thousand dollars loan that she took out to start that hand painted nail file business too.

Well, who the hell is buying hand painted nail files from the Czech Republic.

My buddy Evan Goldstein Again.

Michelle Mack, she just seems to have the opposite of the Midas touch.

Everything she touches just turns shit.

She's a horrible business woman.

I mean, that's one take, and I could see why you would think that.

But here's the thing I've noticed about con artists.

And as you know, I'm writing a book about the fourteen red Flags.

There's a con artist in your life.

And one of those red flags is they have a legitimate day job.

But it's not a day job, it's a cover.

So what if the Czech Republic nail files and the wedding venue business, what if those were never meant to succeed, those were just meant to provide her cover.

Because if you look at the investigation by the California Highway Patrol.

She was arrested in December twenty twenty three.

They say, according to investigators, that she was carrying out this organized retail theft ring for more than ten years, So that dates us back to twenty fourteen, twenty thirteen, maybe twenty twelve, and that's when the nail file business ran into the ground, and that's when her wedding venue businesses in Arizona ran into the ground.

So maybe they were never meant to succeed.

Maybe they were just supposed to provide her cover because what she was really doing was making millions selling stolen stuff on Amazon.

So at this point, I really want to talk to Michelle Mack herself, but neither her or her attorney are getting back to me.

Like, why the hell would you think Michelle Mack would talk to you.

Well, I mean, she pled not guilty, right, so there is this presumption of innocence.

Maybe the California Highway Patrol and Homeland Security and that two year investigation, maybe they made a mistake.

Maybe she's innocent, And if she is innocent, wouldn't you want the chance to tell people about Hey, I'm innocent.

Here's what really happened.

Hey, I'm not guilty.

Hey, I didn't do this, this, and this.

Here's the innocent explanation behind it.

So since she pled not guilty, maybe she wants to explain her side, and I want to give her that opportunity.

Suddenly I get an idea.

The next time Michelle Mack is due in court for one of her many pre trial hearings, I'll approach her about doing an interview.

I at least got a try, right, So, at the crack of dawn on May twenty ninth, twenty twenty four, I drive down to the San Diego Courthouse and I wait around outside for hours, intensely watching every face that passes me, desperately hoping one of those faces will belong to Michelle Mack.

And the truth of the matter is, she looks so different I almost didn't recognize her.

Almost.

Hey Michelle, my name's Jonathan.

I'm with the Queen of the Con podcast.

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Queen of the Con The California Girls is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia, Hosted by Me Jonathan Walton.

Executive producers Jonathan Walton for Jonathan Walton Productions and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media.

Consulting producer Evan Goldstein.

Written by Jonathan Walton, Sound design by Zack Hirsch, Edited and mixed by Zack Hirsh, Audio engineer Justin Longerbean.

Mastered by Justin Longerbean.

Legal counsel for AYR Media, Jianny Douglas, executive producer for iHeartMedia.

Maya Howard Voice acting by Jay Anyone