Hey guys, welcome back to Supersex Reheated, where we warm up one of your absolutely favourite episodes and serve it again, because, honestly, it's just too good not to.

And judging by the downloads, shares and all the slightly blushing DMs that we got, this conversation with Freya Graf hit a collective nerve.

Now why was it so popular?

Simple, freya managed to turn some of the trickiest, most awkward conversations about shame, pleasure and bodies into something that felt not only safe but actually fun.

Now, from a sexologist point of view, this is absolutely gold.

People rarely get permission to laugh and learn at the same time when it comes to sex, and Freya offered exactly that.

She called out the nonsense of bad sex, ed reminded us that women's arousal takes more than a quick fumble and dropped the bombshell that helping with the chores might be the sexiest foreplay of all.

Add in myth-busting on squirting, pelvic floor health and even fisting yes, really.

And you've got an episode that gave listeners both practical tools and a huge sigh of relief.

So let's heat it up again.

Freya Graf, super Sex Classic hey to all the straights, gays and nays, welcome to super sex, the podcast where we have the the freya graph.

She's the only one that I know of.

So, freya, welcome to super sex.

How in the hell are you?

oh, better, now that I've been referred to with an emphatic v freya graph like that makes someone feel that makes a gal feel important, you know you are important having me it's great to have you on the pod it really is, and you know what.

You're actually the first female that we've had on here, which is I love that wild it's great, it's wild.

There's a bit too much testosterone happening on this pod, so we speak look, this is the things I.

I get told off on the on the daily by my friends, like there's too much testosterone.

We need a female's perspective.

What do you guys know?

I'm like look, as a gay man, I have a little bit more of a feminine twist than jordan, but um, obviously there's a lot of blind spots that I'll miss and we need to have a female perspective.

So that's why Freya's here.

Absolutely All right, let's get into it.

How in the hell did you find yourself in the world of sex education podcasting?

How did you get here?

Yeah, well, pretty common trope that I sort of turned my my mess into my message.

I was um deeply fucked up around anything to do with sex bodies, um intimacy, and so I had a lot of challenges and, um sexual shame and trauma that were really crippling for a big chunk of my life and then, sort of in my early to mid-20s, I just thought enough's enough, I can't keep living like this.

It's really sabotaging my relationships and just how I move in the world and it's exhausting.

It was so exhausting having to try to function and, you know, relate with other people while I had all of this kind of shame and all of these inhibitions and all of this incredibly critical kind of thinking and inner voices going on around all of that stuff.

So I got really into personal development, became a bit of a workshop junkie, started kind of dipping my toes into the sacred sexuality, neo-tantra spaces to kind of challenge my fears and push my edges and all of those buzzwords and ultimately worked on my own fears and challenges around sex and overcame things amazingly, like surpassed any expectation I could have had for myself.

I really yeah, I've really surprised myself and it's been incredible to make so much progress and just free myself from the shackles of sexual shame and terror that I used to be living with the burden of.

So after a few years of really actively working on my own shit around sex and body image, I started becoming really passionate about helping others with that, and so I began seeking out trainings and, um, you know, practitioner retreats and things like that anything I could kind of get my hands on to educate myself and upskill so that I could then sort of deliver this work and help other people get out of tricky places.

A lot of people are very, very dissatisfied with where they are in terms of their sex lives, how they feel in their bodies, their intimacy, their communication skills in the bedroom.

It's so common that you know like most of us have stuff around sex.

So, yeah, that's just become my main jam now.

That is awesome.

You know what I love?

The fact that it was your self-analysis and that understanding that you actually had a whole heap of shame around there that you allowed you to to start this process, because 99% of guys they never fucking think about that shit, and I love that you've actually taken that step to to stop and critically sort of think about it and how the hell do I get out of this space and move away from that?

yeah, that's I think, yeah, like my, my first thing I was going to ask about was your sexual education, so I was listening to one of your episodes and you're talking that you're about from a.

You're from a small country town.

Yeah, yeah.

So mine like I've spoken with Jordan before was non-existent.

There was just no sexual education whatsoever.

I'm originally from South Africa and in school, when I was a kid back in the 1980s, there was not sexual anything was not a topic that anyone under the age of 21 years old would ever speak of.

What was your experience with sexual education?

Well, pretty similar to most people, almost non-existent.

I think I had a bare minimum kind of health class where I'm pretty sure there was some plastic bananas that you took the kind of peel off and there was a penis inside and you put a condom on there and you know, oh, it's just, it's classic.

You know they're just fear-mongering and um sti sort of uh education, that sort of, I guess, encourages you to steer clear.

Um it was a full-blown abstinence education, yeah, yeah full of shame, full of like fear-mongering.

Yeah, so it was pretty um unhelpful, to say the least.

And then I suppose where I learned the most about sex was probably the equivalent of I don't know like what you might have had in like a sports locker room or something like there was a there was a gal equivalent where you'd just kind of chat with your friends, you'd read the Dolly Doctor sealed section, which was like a teenage magazine kind of like Cosmo, but maybe a slightly younger audience, at least in Australia.

That's kind of all we had.

So we would read little things here and there in some like teen magazines which were also completely misguided and not very empowering, and you just talk to your friends or your friend's older, older siblings you know older sister, who might be just a little bit further along that journey and maybe slightly less full of shame and fear.

But yeah, there really wasn't any.

Like my parents never talked at all to me about sex, ever.

My auntie, I think, when I turned 15 or something and I was just having a sleepover at her house in the city, was like right, we're going to take you to the doctor and put you on the pill.

But like there wasn't even any talk about sex, it was just like we're going to do this to kind of protect you from teen pregnancy.

Yeah, so very minimal, and I think that contributes to like the shame as well when something's just not even talked about.

You know, totally agree, totally agree.

You don't have that when you don't have that knowledge, the minute somebody or you start experiencing anything sexual, that shame, especially coming from myself, being a gay male, that my shame was exponential.

My shame came from all directions religion, cultural backgrounds, coming to a new country and then different cultures.

So yeah, that's sexual shame.

I think it's like really interesting as well.

You say that you got like Dolly Doctor and Cosmo and all that sort of stuff was like your education For guys and a guy with a couple of sisters.

I distinctly remember going in nicking a couple of like the Cosmo magazines and trying to get some like some bio hacks, like how the fuck do I do this shit and I remember reading a lot of the articles were basically how to make him come, how to be better for him, and it was almost like in the Cosmo magazines.

It was almost as though it was this narrative that the female was there to serve the guy's pleasure, and I think that's really fucked up because guys never had the opposite.

You know, it was like how to get her to want you and how to get this happening, but it was never how to give her pleasure.

Yeah, there's nothing about how to please her.

It's what a fucked up world that we live in this is a fucked world Preaching to the choir here.

Yeah, that's a massive thing that I'm still trying to help a lot of women overcome is this sort of like socialized belief that our pleasure is less of a priority and less important, and that it is our role or our duty or our responsibility to give and provide pleasure, or give our body or provide access to our body for sexual pleasure and gratification of the man.

So yeah, I mean, we were kind of brought into, we were indoctrinated pretty fucking early by magazines like that and just the way that it was all talked about, which was absolutely nothing to do with female pleasure, no way.

Of course not, it's fine.

So you say that you work with females.

Do you work with primarily females, or couples, or guys as well?

Yeah, I work with.

I do online sex coaching for guys and gals all genders but I suppose my main areas of expertise is sort of more in the heterodynamic.

I've worked predominantly with women, in large part because I do a thing called yoni mapping therapy as well, which is a body work involving internal pelvic release and vaginal massage and sort of education and coaching around female pleasure anatomy.

But I do also work um online with with the coaching and education part of it this is something I was so interested about yoni, yoni mapping, like okay, I know absolutely nothing about it.

The first time I heard it was with jordan's.

Like this is what we're doing.

I'm like what is first of all?

What is yoni and what is yoni mapping?

Can you explain to us what it is exactly?

yeah, yeah, that's part of my battle.

It's so niche and hardly anyone's heard of it so it's been quite tricky to carve out a living.

But basically, yoni, or yoni is a Sanskrit term for vagina, vulva, womb, the whole sort of female reproductive space, okay, and I guess the modality is in part derived from sort of ancient practices in like tantra yoga and involves a vulva and internal vaginal massage.

Nowadays I'm sort of trying to steer a little bit clear of some of that language and the Sanskrit terms and everything like that, because I don't really want to be associated with the, the neo tantra scene as much anymore.

That is where I kind of got my start in these trainings, but I've sort of gone a little bit more into a slightly more like sciencey grounded approach.

Um been doing it for like eight years now, which is wild to think about.

But basically it involves um, what I do involves a combination of talk therapy and sex coaching and education for the first sort of hour and a half of the session and then for another hour and a half, two hours, so they're pretty long, you know three to four hour sessions.

Um, I do body work, so I'll do a full body massage to relax the client and get them fully present in their body and drop them into the parasympathetic nervous system so that they're kind of in a place where they can then receive genital touch.

And I'll do an external vulva massage and a bit of a guided tour of all of their anatomy, kind of showing them where everything is, what things are called, how to find different parts.

And then I do an internal vaginal mapping, so I massage all of the tissues inside the pelvic floor through the vagina.

Okay, that's so cool.

That's the fascinating part for me that a lot of females don't actually understand their own vulvas and vaginas, do they?

It's almost as though that shame thing that Shams was talking about it sort of prevents them from going anywhere near it.

And I wonder, like, when these females come to you, or people with vaginas come to you, can you see that shame that's there, or can you see that apprehension of going through that process?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

A lot of people have a real fear or a real sort of repulsion or disgust or hesitance to touch those areas, or especially with penetration.

So they might be okay with some external clitoral touch or something, or maybe I mean the most common thing is they'll use a vibrator or a toy so they're not actually having to interact and engage with their genitals skin to skin.

And a lot of them will have a real fear or reluctance to go inside the vagina and put a finger inside or do anything internal.

And I think a lot of that does come from the shame.

I definitely grappled with that back in the day the first time I ever even touched myself for any sort of like sexual pleasure.

I was like 20 and I wrapped my fingers in glad wrap because I was so disgusted in my own body and I didn't want to touch skin on skin to my vulva.

So that's kind of like you know that's exactly what we're talking about here Like we're up against that shame and that revulsion in our own bodies because we've been told that vaginas are dirty and periods are gross and you know, self-pleasuring is slutty and shameful.

But then there's also just a sort of, I guess, an apprehension that comes from a lack of education and this like really confronting experience that a lot of women have described to me, where they do try to explore a little bit more and they just don't know what to do.

They don't know where anything is.

They kind of put some fingers inside or try to have a bit of a bit of a play and they're like I don't know.

I just don't know where to start.

Nothing really feels all that interesting or exciting and I don't know where the spots are that I should be going for or what I should be doing or how to even self-pleasure myself, because they haven't had any direction or any education.

I think it's pretty cool, though, what you're doing, though, because, like from what I'm gathering, you're not just obviously just doing this massage.

You're explaining to them, making them understand their own bodies, what the potential could be for whether it be pleasure or whatever.

It is that they can learn more.

I think, for guys, it's obviously so much easier.

You look down and it's there, yeah, like, there's, and it's not that, it is not that complex, let's be honest.

It's obviously so much easier.

You look down and it's there, yeah, like, and it's not that complex, let's be honest.

It's just an extra piece of skin and it's there, whereas for people with vaginas, there's just, I mean, there's a lot going on.

There's a lot going on.

And, look, I'm the last person to talk about them, because I really don't know much, being the gay man.

Here's the thing, though, right I, because I really don't know much being the gay man.

Here's the thing, though, right I want to know you know how we get handed down these sexual scripts and you like, get back to the Cosmo.

If you want to get yourself off, buzz your clit, okay.

What I've been researching lately is that not all women get off with clitoral stimulation and that there's actually a whole heap of nerve endings within the vagina itself that link to a different part of the brain, and I can just imagine that a lot of your clients are coming in going oh, I'm broken, because I can't get off with clitoral stimulation or insertion the way you're supposed to, the way that you're supposed to.

But then they come and see a professional like you and then all of a sudden, well hey, I'm starting on lock shit.

Do you see that a lot?

Yeah, totally.

It's probably more common that people will have dialed in the clitoral side of things because it's more accessible.

It's on.

You know, they can reach the glands on the outside.

That's sort of people's go-to nowadays.

And, you know, thank God we've actually found the clitoris because up until recently it wasn't even included in all of its proper, accurate anatomical glory in textbooks and you know, a lot of people didn't know about it.

So it's kind of had this like whole PR campaign.

The clit is like this symbol of female empowerment and so people are usually a little bit more well-versed with clitoral pleasure.

But they feel broken or they're worried that their vagina is like faulty or malfunctioning because they can't feel pleasure from penetration, or they're trying to find their G-spot and they're like I guess I just don't have one and things like this.

So I hear that a lot.

Some people don't get too much from the clit and yeah, I mean that is such a common thing where people just feel broken, like I hear that all the time.

Maybe there's something wrong with me, maybe I'm like not normal, but one way or another they're generally coming to me because they're not able to experience pleasure or orgasm in the way that they think they should and that you know some sexual script or narrative is telling them that they should.

And so a big part of what I'm then doing is educating them, showing them around their pleasure anatomy, explaining how a lot of especially the internal anatomy, all of those nerve endings you just referred to really require their erectile tissue to become engorged and filled with yummy, juicy blood which nourishes and oxygenates all of those nerve endings and creates sensation and therefore orgasm and pleasure.

And so what a lot of women are doing, or people with vaginas are doing, is kind of bypassing a whole without realizing bypassing a whole lot of their body and their nervous systems kind of needs in order to get engorged, and so they're not experiencing a whole lot of pleasure.

With penetration Like the clitoris is quite quick and easy to start activating for most people, but there's so much more potential in terms of pleasure and orgasm inside the vagina, throughout the whole erectile network, that often just doesn't even get a look in, it doesn't get involved.

We're often having penetration a long time before our erectile tissue is engorged, and what I like to highlight for people is vaginas have just as much erectile tissue as a cock, except, like you said, it's not visible.

It's all internal.

So we're often kind of just out here being like, oh, I don't know where anything is and what's going on, and we're usually having penetrative sex or trying to enjoy penetration with the equivalent of a flaccid cock, like our erectile tissue is not engorged, we don't have a hard on or a hard in inside the vagina, and so of course it's not going to be feeling all that exciting and of course we're going to wind up feeling like we're broken because you know we're not getting a whole lot of pleasure because we're kind of trying to fuck with a soft cock, you know and you wouldn't expect a guy to be able to come.

With the flaccid penis, you can still feel some pleasure, but it's not the same, um, and that's because he's not engorged.

Same for us, but no one knows about it all right, I've learned something today.

I'm so excited so from a guy's point of view, this is going to be like a little bit of gold for every guy that's out there listening.

How long on average would it take to get all those clitoral erectile tissues moving and flowing to a point where penetration isn't just going to be possible but pleasurable, right is?

Is it like a timeline, like is it five minutes, is 10 minutes, or is it actually what you're doing?

That is the big difference there it's.

It's like, I mean, there's, there's a rule of thumb and then there's, of course, exceptions to the rule and everyone's individual and everyone has different, uh, kind of arousal types and patterns and things that get them going, and whatever depends on the mood, depends on where they're at in their cycle, depends on so many things.

But as a very general kind of ballpark, just just to highlight how different it is for a woman to a man 30 to 40 minutes, so like a guy can get an erection in like 30 seconds flat sometimes, and sometimes so can a vagina, but it's very rare.

It takes a lot, lot longer than you think.

So the rule of thumb is always take way longer than you think you need to, and women need to know this about themselves as well.

Don't feel as though you're taking too long, you're being too demanding or too needy, or you're broken and it's not going to work for you because it's been 10 or 15 minutes and you're already kind of trying to rush yourself to keep up with this man's timeline.

It's really helpful to know like 30 to 40 minutes, you know like that that is a long time.

Well, it is for us I mean.

But it's also like it can.

It can.

It doesn't have to be like that genital stimulation for 30 to 40 minutes before we penetrate.

It can be like so many other things that would fall under this kind of quote-unquote foreplay.

So you know, just massage, kissing, other forms of touch, oral sex and finger banging, all this sort of stuff, sure, but like it can even just be like having a really deep, vulnerable chat and her feeling incredibly seen and respected and heard.

And you know the sort of classic.

You know there's all these studies now around um, in a heterosexual dynamic at least, like if the, if the male partner has picked up a whole bunch of slack and is doing housework and has cooked dinner and is like taking things off her plate and meaning that she's able to feel respected and seen and supported and cared for and is able to have more downtime for self-care and relaxation.

That's going to mean that she's way more down to fuck and ready for that sooner than if he had done none of that groundwork.

So a lot of it's like not even sexual.

That's kind of getting her going and getting her in the mood.

But in general, you know, if you're going from like a busy day at work, or you've just put the kids to bed, or you know you're thinking about your to-do list and you hit the sheets.

You're going to need like 30 to 40 minutes just to calm your nervous system down enough and get out of the sympathetic and into the parasympathetic, which then allows the engorgement, because you need that dilation of blood vessels, um, and the direction of blood to the pelvis as opposed to, like you know, the organs like the brain and the heart that are like ready to get pumping and get you going.

If you're in that fight or flight response which most of us are most of the time in the sympathetic side of the nervous system, and for a woman's full engorgement and full arousal cascade to take place, she needs to be in the parasympathetic nervous system.

So 30 to 40 minutes, that's usually just to calm her nervous system down and give her arousal and her erectile tissue a chance.

I think that is so important takeaway for today for all the straight males out there.

You too, jordan.

First of all, do some dishes I did this morning, actually that guys understand that just because you're ready and you're ready to go in 30 seconds, as you say you can't just get in there, bang shit up and be like oh yeah, I had a great time, did you like that love?

Like?

it's there's so much more to, just you know, to having sex like you're saying, talking um making your partner feel like they're important, that they're respected.

This has all got to do with sex.

It's not just you know, yeah, because a foreplay is.

I personally think that foreplay happens a long time before you even get into the bedroom and like a lot of that is conversational, you know, and building that arousal up and dropping, dropping, like all the pressures and everything throughout your day, and then slowly, slowly building it up and like building this sexy sort of narrative.

Yeah to, to make things happen.

But if you think about it, like if you let's just say not that I've done this in years, but go out to a club and you see someone you're attracted to, that there's so much, before you get to the point where you've even kissed this person, that you're feeling you got, you know, you get the tingles.

You see something like oh my god, they're so hot, I want to talk to them, want to go up to them, they come up to you, go up to them.

There's all of the sexual energy that happens before you even physically touch each other.

Same deal, same same.

When you went home with your wife or your partner, you got to get the juices flowing.

Yeah for sure.

And now it seems like you need to get that happening a lot sooner than we actually think, and guys and girls have got it different.

But it's funny what you hit on there.

Actually think, and guys and girls have got different, but it's fun, it's funny what you hit on there.

I read a study the other day about how our brains actually switch off the ability to get aroused because we are in that fight or flight.

So if you're really stressed out, your brain actually isn't going to allow you junk to start working.

It literally is guys, it's turning our dicks off.

Yeah.

So I was going to ask do you find that a lot of your work with couples or with guys is them trying to figure out why there is such a discrepancy within desire and arousal and all that sort of stuff?

Because the guy's like, oh, you know, I'm ready to go, I brought her a box of chocolates, a bunch of flowers, what fucking more does she want?

And the wife's sitting there going well, hang on a second.

I've got all this shit going on and I'm just not into the sex that you're handing out right now Is is that what you're sort of dealing with on a daily?

Oh yeah, like it's wild because and it makes sense Like we don't get educated on this.

So, if you think about it, the sort of the intel that the guys have to go off is based around how their own body works, of course, and porn, and maybe like media movie scenes and stuff which is like we make out for 30 seconds and then it's dick and vag and let's go dick in vag and let's go um, and so they've got really kind of uh, pretty shonky intel about sex in general and how a woman's body works.

And then women also don't usually understand how their own bodies work because they've had all the kind of shame and negative conditioning that's meant they haven't explored it to the fullest.

Um, we're being marketed, you know, these like, I guess, symbols of feminine or feminist empowerment, like clitoral toys and vibrators that you know it's better than nothing.

But it sort of means we're completely ignoring this whole other kind of side of our sexuality and exploration internally that we could be focusing on and mastering and developing.

Plus, we're also following these media-generated and socialized sexual tropes that are all narratives based on a male body, so our sexual blueprint that we are measuring up to is also based on men's bodies.

So we're often thinking, fuck, there's something wrong with us.

Also, we're conditioned and socialized to be people-pleasing and to be self-sacrificing and not speak up for our needs and to put male pleasure before ours.

So we're not actually giving a whole lot of direction and guidance and saying, hey, actually, this is how my body works and I'd prefer this.

Can you do this?

And then so men aren't learning from women and they're also not learning by comparing women to their own bodies and their own sexual blueprint and society's sexual blueprint.

So we've all been kind of it's a blind leading the blind and we're all trying to follow and measure up to a sexual blueprint and narratives and scripts that have been handed down to us that are, like, not serving anyone, even the men.

Like, even though they're based on male bodies, they're still not serving the men because, you know, a lot of the time it's all about, it's all about penetration, it's all about ejaculation, it's all about performance and staying rock hard the entire time.

And if you prematurely ejaculate, or if you all about performance and staying rock hard the entire time, and if you prematurely ejaculate, or if you can't keep an erection reliably.

You're not man enough.

And so these sexual scripts and narratives that we have are so damaging to all genders and, frankly, pretty inaccurate.

Because a lot of men don't realize it's actually super normal and common and okay for them to require emotional tenderness and safety and you know connection.

They're just like oh well, I'm just expected to be like a fucking dick on legs and just fuck on cue and have this like hard erection.

And women are like, well, I'm just, I just think I've been told I just need to basically be a glorified sex doll and go along with the guy and as long as he ejaculates, then we've done a good job at sex, you know.

So it's just it's trash and that's that's the biggest part of my job is just educating people on that and trying to help us come together literally, um, and have compassion and understanding for like the way one another's bodies work and getting curious about how our own bodies work as well.

I think it's hilarious, though right, that when you actually sit down and talk to people, you realize how much everyone's the same and we don't know shit.

Men don't know about women half the time.

Sometimes women don't know about men.

Men don't know about women half the time.

Sometimes women don't know about men.

Men don't know about their own bodies and themselves and women are the same, so it's so cool that we have podcasts out here that are teaching people that you know what we're actually all the same.

None of us know enough, and that's what the idea is to be on here and teach people to learn, learn about yourself.

You know what, though?

There's like and Freya, you'll be able to talk to this a bit more, but there's such a conflicting, such a massive amount of conflicting information out there, so what you were just talking about it was completely resonating with me.

But I was on instagram the other day and there's this dickhead called sterling cooper.

I don't know if you've heard of him, but I think he's like an expert but that name already I know right there straight away just like oh my god and he, he sat there and he put out like this 30 second clip and it was basically women don't want you to be nice to them, women just want you to be a man and fucking take them.

You've got to dominate that shit and that's the only way that she's going to get wet.

And I'm like fuck.

And I literally started being a keyboard warrior and I was just like and then I thought you know what, I'm going to hang on here because I'm just gonna sort of sit down and assess.

And I thought you know, well, maybe he's got a point.

So I asked my wife and I was like, is this actually a thing?

And she's like, yeah, maybe if you've been in a relationship for like 10 years and you've like talked for fucking ever about like what you like and what turns you on, and you've set this scene.

But there's dickheads out there putting information like that out and guys are gobbling it up.

That's the problem.

You've got such a hard task to be able to sit there and push back against that and rewrite those scripts right.

Yeah, especially since those are the kinds of men that have the personality types and the sort of like amount of like insecurities and sociopathy that allows them to get ahead in our fucked up capitalistic world and on social media platforms super fucking extreme, very, very misguided, um, you know, kind of influencer culture around that where, as long as they say it with so much confidence, it seems credible and men want that confidence and so the kinds of men that follow that really want to feel confident and secure because they have insecurities around their masculinity or whatever, and then sadly, like a lot of women, have also kind of been programmed to feel like and to be only attracted to the bad boy or that cuntish kind of mean guy that treats them like shit, because you know that's what they've now come to associate with masculinity and they only find that you know they're like quote unquote like alpha, alpha male, attractive and it's just, it's like it's very toxic, it's very, very toxic and misguided and it's really sad because deep down, that's actually totally not not what anyone wants.

Um, you know, and like your wife said, like sure, if you are playing with a bit of like dominant, submissive, um power play, or if you have really great communication and you have a lot of emotional safety with a person, then you can manufacture sort of sexual scenarios where it does feel really exciting and thrilling to be taken.

But that's also because you've got that safety there.

And if that's going on and the sad thing is like this sort of stuff is going on a lot with, like casual sex, one night stands it seems to be more and more, like you know, accepted as like the norm, and I think that's why so many people are out here having terrible sex and winding up feeling really empty and kind of used and quite disempowered after these casual encounters, even if for a while, like you know, women might feel empowered by it and be like, yay, I'm having a ho phase.

Women might feel empowered by it and be like, yay, I'm having a ho phase.

But yeah, I think it's really tricky because it's most of the time coming from not a super authentic place, just like a socialised place, and yeah, I mean, there's so much to say on that topic.

It's all a bit horrifying really.

There's, you know, all of these like studies now coming out around how so many men are just choking without asking for consent.

It's become this really normalized thing that they just think is okay to do without checking in and it's not being treated as a very kinky kind of thing.

That falls under the category of BDSM, which would usually require a lot of communication and consent and sort of aftercare and things.

Young men are just pulling it out and just doing it and women just think, oh, I guess this is just sex, this is just what's happening.

But there's a lot of crushed tracheas going on and a lot of kind of brain damage going on from unsafe sex practices where the man is playing a really dominant role, um, and the woman kind of goes along with it and thinks that's normal and it's super dangerous and it's not consensual because that's what they've been taught, right well, yeah, a lot of people are like learning it from their friends, but then, like, there's this porno thing that's happening now.

You see, sexual strangulation.

It's so much porn and it's never the guy that's getting choked, it's always the girl.

Oh yeah, of course, exactly.

And the other thing that I found which is fascinating, but with sexual strangulation, in fact porn in general, if a woman resonates with the actress in the porn film Like she goes oh, you know, she looks my size, my hair colour, she looks a little bit like me, she's got the same sort of energy.

She is more likely to acquire the script from that Like a lot, fucking higher chance of acquiring that script.

So she sees somebody who looks like her in a porn film getting choked, she goes oh, that's something I can do.

Maybe I should try that.

I want to try that, which, of course, is fucking dangerous, because there's not the sex ed around that we need, right?

I mean, who do you even go to to figure out how to be choked?

Because even in the BDSdsm community, that's like a fucking edgy play.

Yeah, like a real edgy play.

Oh man, it's yeah, even in bdsm communities they're.

They're like moving away from choking altogether because there isn't really a way of doing it safely.

There's a way of doing it more safely, but like doing it regularly.

Still, um has the same kind of repercussions on the brain as multiple concussions with, like rugby players and things like that.

So they're trying to find other ways to engage in constriction play without it being around the neck and and cutting off air supply, because it's just actually not good for you and there is no safe way of doing it now they're discovering.

That's wild.

So, talking about BDSM communities, do you find that a lot of your clients are coming to you who are already in these sort of sexual spaces, whether they're like C&M or Kinky or do you get like most of your clients coming to you just from what people call vanilla life?

that's what I was gonna ask.

I wanted to know a bit more about your like, your clientele, like what?

What's the variety?

Is it?

I'm I'm assuming it's just like from every um background?

yeah, yeah, it's pretty.

It's pretty across the board, although definitely the majority would be in the vanilla category.

I'm pretty vanilla, you know like I'm open-minded and I'm I'm sexually liberated, but I wouldn't call myself kinky.

I don't um, I don't really get around too much BDSM stuff.

I have an understanding of it and a lot of friends and colleagues in that space and obviously with my job I need to be across it, but it's not my kind of specialty area and, and so I think people that are like really wanting to delve deeper into that side of things would find a coach that's more specialized.

So I get a lot of just your average person a lot of moms, a lot of pre and postnatal clients, people that just a lot of people that are just struggling with the fundamentals and the basics around orgasm and pleasure and being able to relax enough and get out of their heads being able to orgasm with a partner.

When it comes to men, it's just really common stuff like erectile dysfunction issues, premature ejaculation, porn addiction, confidence and body image stuff, porn addiction, you know, confidence and body image stuff so like really just average common people and problems that so many, so many regular people are battling with.

So, yeah, I'm sort of yeah, you're kind of regular old vanilla sort of sex expert.

I'd say I still get a broad spectrum.

But yeah, it's actually just just regular people that are into regular stuff and are just having a bit of trouble with a few things I think that's really cool though it's, it's good that that you got the regular people there, because, though I feel like those are the people that need to know their bodies, those are the people that need to kind of understand more so that their quote unquote regular sex can be, you know, amazing If you're already in that kinky sort of space.

you've already taken the time to sort of digest and try to understand.

The whole BDSM thing.

If you're into a kinky lifestyle, you understand a lot more, whereas it's the people that like I'm.

I'm the same as you.

For it, I'm as much as people won't believe it.

I'm very vanilla.

Is that why you got a haircut?

Shut up they call me eminem um.

I'm very very vanilla I.

I would love to know more, because I'm not, as I don't explore as much as probably I would like to, but it's cool to have someone like you out there that is helping the average person understand more about their body and more about pleasure.

Yeah, yeah, because you're bang on.

You're bang on like people that are in kink communities and bdsm scenes or polyamorous communities, anyone that's sort of a bit more on the fringe.

They've generally done more research, had more communication about it, they've got a lot more skill around communicating about boundaries and consent and desires and likes and dislikes.

Because you have to if you're going to be engaging in the more niche or fringe or sort of taboo or stigmatized corners of sexuality.

You pretty much have to level up in those areas and you can't skate by just fumbling your way through as easily, whereas just your average person having quote, unquote, regular or vanilla sex, you literally can just have crappy sex and never talk about it, never communicate about it with a partner, never really explore a whole lot other than just letting things be done to you or going along with something and kind of hoping that the other person's enjoying themselves and not really even being sure if you're enjoying yourself.

And that stuff goes on constantly and a lot of the stuff that people come to me for support with just requires some coaching around, like getting more comfortable and confident communicating about sex and exploring and learning those skills that a lot of the people in the more fringe spaces have already had to get pretty good at.

Yeah, I love that you've said that actually, because that was going to be my next question, like how much of your practice is trying to teach people just how to talk about this stuff?

because communication we've spoken about so many times it's so important, because at the end of it if you, if you don't communicate and we're having we're both having bad sex, how do I know what good sex is?

Let's just say, this is someone that's you know, met their high school sweetheart, first person they slept with.

They don't know anything more than what they have done with that one person.

They might not ever know what good sex is because they've had this bad sex for 10 years and in their minds it was this is the way sex is supposed to be.

You know, I'm supposed to.

As a female, I'm not supposed to feel anything.

He's supposed to.

You know, just stick it in me, come done and that's it.

And then this is again where you come in.

Obviously, yeah, and a really problematic thing that happens a lot in heterosexual dynamics is the woman faking orgasm because of a number of things, but basically what that winds up doing is meaning that there isn't a whole lot of learning or growing or calibrating to one another's bodies and needs happening, and so there'll be women that come to me that have been in 30-year marriages and they've never once had an orgasm with their partner.

They don't really like sex, but they just do it and they get it over with because it's, like you know, a wife's duty.

That's so fucked up and yeah, and sometimes, like these women have been faking orgasms for the entire relationship and they're like I don't know how to tell him, you know, oh, my days Wow.

That is.

Yeah.

Yeah, the funny part is I'm so bad.

I faked an orgasm last week Last week, I'm not joking, I totally did.

But I just want to know did you realize, freya, that guys do it too?

I mean, I knew that it does happen sometimes, but it's less easy to pull that off, for starters, and I don't think it happens as often, especially with heterosexual men, because they feel so entitled to their pleasure and often do get off quite easily, and it's kind of like there's way more.

Uh, yeah, anyway, that's that's interesting.

How come you felt like it was, um, that was the best option in that moment to just fake it I won't lie, it's happened.

I'm gonna say like three no, no, I'm gonna say like three or four times in my life for different reasons.

Sometimes it was just you know what, it was taking too long.

I was just absolutely spent.

I couldn't keep going.

I'm like you know what he's happy, he's had a good time.

I'm just, ah, yay.

But obviously it's a lot more difficult for a guy to um fake it, because obviously you have come.

So you kind of have to figure out a way you just gotta keep like a bottle of bottling back pocket squirted on the back.

I'm just hiding it.

But for me it's been either just one, I just haven't been that into it and I'm at a point where I'm like you know what, like this is just not working for me.

I don't feel like, and that communication obviously I'm not in a relationship um, so for me it's more like a casual sexual thing, um, so for me I'm not having those conversations and that communication prior where I feel comfortable enough to say at some point, you know what, I'm actually not feeling this.

So then I do the whole.

Okay, cool.

Well, let's get this over and done with.

If I, just because you know two guys if we come, okay, cool, you've reached what you need to do.

Okay, we're done, so I can leave now so sometimes it's yeah, I feel like sometimes it's not.

It doesn't feel worth the emotional labor to try to broach the topic and have this whole conversation.

So, like in a casual sense, you know, sometimes it really just feels like, oh my God, sibs, like who can be bothered.

But what I would say is you know, male orgasm doesn't have to accompany ejaculation.

You could just pretend to be like a tantric god that just has a full-body energy orgasm and you're practicing semen retention or something you know.

You could just pull that shit.

I you're practicing semen retention or something.

You know I love that or what I would encourage.

I'm always encouraging people as well, like even in casual, and I get it like it's annoying and it's a lot of labor to like have these conversations, especially with, like basic bros fuck, tell me about it but like I think it's really important.

Even in those scenarios, if you can to you know, try to introduce the idea to them because it probably will be the first time they've ever heard this idea or this concept that orgasm or ejaculation is not the be-all and end-all.

You still get so much benefit and oxytocin and intimacy and connection and touch and pleasure.

You still get sexual pleasure and enjoy arousal regardless of whether an orgasm happens or not.

So maybe taking the pressure off that as the main event and the be all and end all of the you know like that, that is the mark of a successful sexual encounter.

I think experience yeah, yeah, I think I want to like try to encourage people to like remove it from its pedestal and try to just normalise it not having to be, especially with like ejaculation, because that's a lot of pressure to put on a guy as well.

Yeah, I want to normalise that not being the mark of.

You know, the only way a sexual encounter can finish is if a guy finishes, Because then it also puts pressure on the person trying to make them come, because that would feel inadequate if they haven't managed to achieve it or whatever, and it just kind of like minimizes and invalidates all of the amazing stuff that we can still enjoy about intimacy and sexual pleasure.

You know that doesn't require an orgasm.

Yeah, it's so funny.

Like I remember, there was this YouTube guy that I used to follow, a gay guy, and he got into creating porn porn studio and his whole thing was all about you know the fact that you do not need to ejaculate in order to have a good sexual experience, and at the time I'm like what the fuck is this dude going about?

This is all the bullshit yeah if I don't come.

That's not sex.

And I used to be as a gay.

As a gay person, uh, I used to be more of a top.

And then I started experiencing the world of bottoming out there and I was like this shit's amazing.

And the funniest thing is the amount of times I had sex as a top and my partner at the time as the bottom didn't come.

And in my head I'm like, oh shit, like are you okay?

Like do I need to help you out?

What do I need to do?

And they're just in there going no, no, no, I've had a great time, I'm good.

I'm like, no, you haven't.

How could you have a good time if you haven't come?

And then my own bottoming experience and bottoming journey, I realized at some point, if you have the right person, the right connection, the right feeling, I've had, I think, honestly, the best sex I've ever had was with a person that it was.

They came, I was sitting there, I had the time of my life and I did not come is it.

I did not ejaculate huh.

Is it energy, though?

Was it energy in that experience?

I don't know what it was.

I think it was everything altogether.

I think it was my attraction to him.

One it was I don't know the feeling of his dick just perfect.

Everything was perfect and I'm like, wow, and that was my mind-blowing experience.

And I was like, from that day onwards I'm like, okay, so ejaculation does not need to happen for me to have great sex, which I genuinely didn't believe at the time and I think a lot of people don't believe, um, and a lot of women don't believe, and so take it very personally if the guy doesn't ejaculate, and then it's like, oh my gosh.

So I think that's I'm.

I'm big on encouraging people to just like introduce the concept that, like it doesn't ejaculate and then it's like, oh my gosh.

So I think that's I'm.

I'm big on encouraging people to just like introduce the concept that, like, it doesn't have to be um the mark of good sex and it doesn't have to be the end either.

Um, yeah, because it's.

I love, I love that, I love that you've gone from being one of those basic bros I mentioned to uh exactly stillies, because it's also just like super hot to like.

It's often really rewarding and pleasurable and arousing to give other people pleasure and to see them in pleasure and you can vicariously enjoy that and like, feel that arousal in your body and still feel totally satisfied by that as well, which is what it sounds like you kind of were experiencing in that moment.

Here's something I want to know right, Guys have sort of structured this thing where ejaculation is the primacy of our sexual experience.

It seems as though now, though, there's a lot of women who are starting to take on this idea that they need to be able to squirt in order to prove to their partner that they've had an amazing time.

Are you seeing a lot of that?

Yeah, squirting's just become so trendy and it's become this sort of yeah, another symbol of, like feminist empowerment and a lot of people feel like there's something wrong with them if they can't squirt.

It's become, I mean, and it's just this like classic thing that tends to happen, where we pedestalise something and we get really goal-oriented about it and like being goal-oriented in sex it doesn't have to be the worst thing, like it's cool to like want to be able to have an orgasm or squirt or whatever.

But it it's very rare that we're able to just let that goal be a nice sort of thing to work towards and not beat ourselves up if it doesn't happen.

Generally, once we become goal oriented, it becomes like way too focused on that and then we are dissatisfied if it doesn't happen and we're not enjoying the journey and we're not enjoying all the other subtle delicious things that we could be enjoying with intimacy and sex and pleasure and touch um, because we're way too focused on that, that goal, and it's also just, it's just sort of been driven a lot by the porn industry, like you know how kind of popular squirting has become, and so a lot of women feel pressure to do it because their male partner wants to feel the kind of, um, sexual prowess of making someone squirt, because all of a sudden squirting is fucking more about his ability to like, achieve, like, make someone do something.

And yeah, it's all a bit, it's all a bit bullshit really.

Um, and I do.

I have noticed like in recent years I've been getting more and more clients who, like women who come to me being like, oh, I just don't know what's wrong, like I can't squirt, like everyone else seems to just be squirting left, right and center and I'm like honey, no, like it's actually not that common and it comes very easily and naturally for a small percentage of people and then for another small percentage of people, you can teach yourself to do it and you can learn to do it.

Sure, like everyone should physiologically be capable of it, but it's actually not as common as porn is now leading us all to believe.

Um, and it's also like, so over glorified, like so many people I know that squirt are like it doesn't even feel that like, because it doesn't have to accompany orgasm.

Sometimes you just squirt and there's not even any pleasure.

Sometimes there is pleasure, but it's like not anything more spectacular than a regular orgasm.

A lot of people find it inconvenient and it just soaks the sheets and it's fucking annoying and like it's not all it's cracked up to be for everyone, yeah.

I think porn has a lot to answer for, like just thinking about it from my perspective.

Obviously, being the gay man here, I'm not watching videos where a woman is squirting, so I don't really know anything much about it.

But putting it into my perspective of my own experiences with porn tells us that squirty every woman has to squirt.

So then you go, woman thinking they need to do it.

Guys, you gotta have.

You know.

You watch um porn with these big, massive dicks and you're like, oh shit, my dick has to be big or they're coming like freaking gallons of of cum.

And you're like, oh, you have to do these things in order to have a great sexual experience.

And it's all such bullshit because it leaves you feeling again going back to shame.

You feel shame that why don't I come as much?

Why is my dick not big enough?

Why am I not squirting?

It's so fucked up.

So fucked up.

Yeah, and like so much of what we are we are like, a lot of it is all just being.

It's stemming from this like desire to belong and to be like everyone else, because that, at its very core, is a survival mechanism that evolutionarily has been like wired into us because we want to belong, we want to be, we want to be similar to everyone else, so that we're not ostracized and so that we feel like we fit in and we're normal and stuff and so like sometimes people will come and like, you know, like this is an example which was really interesting to me.

Like there was a guy who was really concerned that he didn't have a lot of pre-cum.

He just never had pre-cum and he's like but everyone else like gets and I'm like but is there anything wrong with not like?

Why do you want to have pre-cum?

It doesn't enhance your sexual experience in any way.

It doesn't really make much difference.

It doesn't mean anything about you as a guy.

It's just literally that you have less you know, of that fluid coming out prior.

If anything, it's maybe just slightly more convenient or less messy because you're not getting little wet patches in your jocks if you're getting turned on Like.

More convenient or less messy because you're not getting little wet patches in your jocks if you're getting turned on like I don't know.

So it was something.

So it just seems so kind of inconsequential and innocuous to me.

But for him he was really concerned because he was like but but other guys have it and so I want to have it like how do I get pre-cum?

but it's the idea.

Who says, other guys have it that's the funny part.

He's know what, though?

It's fucking everywhere now.

I actually heard an ad the other day for a product that will boost your semen volume.

Oh yeah, I see that all the time.

I've literally tried it.

Who the fuck is monetizing this shit?

And like who's normalizing it to a point where motherfuckers are out there earning money from this shit and it's all?

bullshit, it's all bullshit.

All those tablets and all those vitamins it's absolute bullshit.

Speaking from personal experience yes, I am.

It is what it is.

You have what you have and you just have to deal with it.

Yeah, like I'm saying again, we've spoken about this in our porn episode, where the idea that normal comes from porn and that's not normal.

Seeing an 11-inch dick is not normal, that is so out.

But we believe that these things are normal.

That guy believes that you have to have pre-cum because why he's probably spoken to two of his mates that have lots of pre-cum and then watched a thousand videos of porn and every single video has got this dude with like gallons of pre-cum and he's going oh, I'm not normal, but the majority of guys out there probably don't have that much, just like him, yeah wow totally.

I know it's tricky because so much stuff kind of goes on behind closed doors with regards to sex topics and a lot of people, because of the shame and the stigma, are not really talking about it.

With their like guys equating their sort of like masculinity or testosterone levels to like how massive their load of cum is, and it's like dude for starters, that means shit all, and secondly like it fluctuates depending on how frequently you've cum and all this stuff.

It's like you take big shit some days and little shits other days, and who cares, you know.

I like that.

Like that.

That's a beautiful analogy.

I love it.

I love that.

Here's another thing that I want to know about and we're talking about normalizing things right um kegels I see all these products out there as well about how to for women to train their pelvic floor, but what I'm actually hearing is that a lot of women actually have a pelvic floor that's too tight.

Is that correct?

Yeah, oh yeah, Really yeah big time.

It's a real issue, yeah, and with the work that I do, because I do internal pelvic floor release massage, so I'm often getting clients that have a hypertonic pelvic floor or they're trying to prepare for birth and they've just all of their tissues are so, so tight that it's kind of evident they're going to have a really long labor or they might have to get an emergency C-section or they're you know they're probably going to struggle with a natural birth because of that chronic tension in their pelvic floor.

I see heaps of this with Pilates teachers, yoga teachers, people who have been taught to constantly way you know, shapewear things, high heels like holy fuck, they're bad for your pelvic floor that are creating chronic pelvic floor tension.

Wow Okay, high heels Really.

Oh my God, High heels are the devil dude.

I've just done an episode with a functional podiatrist and a fascia expert.

That's all about your feet and things like that.

So, yeah, definitely check that one out.

I'll throw mine out then, yeah.

That is super interesting.

And so, yeah, I see a lot of pelvic floor tension because, also, we're often very stressed and you know, neck, shoulder, jaw tension, anything kind of around this mouth, throat, jaw, neck area is very reflected in the pelvic floor, um, and so it's a big issue and often people that feel as though they need to strengthen their pelvic floor.

The pelvic floor is weak because it's too tight.

So we we kind of misconstrue this like oh, you want to have a tight pussy.

Thinking a tight pussy means a strong pussy and thinking that doing all the kegels and the vaginal weightlifting or whatever, and just squeezing and doing a lot of contraction-based exercises will give us a strong vagina.

And that's not always the case.

It's not necessarily the case at all.

In fact, it creates more tension in an already tense environment.

Um, and the the kind of chronic activation of your pelvic floor muscles creates weakness because they're so fatigued and they're always in a state of contraction so they shorten and there's not a whole lot of um room for them to then squeeze any any tighter or on any more.

And so a big part of what I teach people is completely counter to the whole Kegels framework, because I'm trying to help them learn how to relax and let go and release and lengthen their tissues instead of contract and tighten their tissues.

So yeah, I know a lot of pelvic floor specialists that now won't even recommend or ever teach anything like Kegels.

It's a little bit like there's a bit of kind of conflicting info and some controversial opinions, but I am definitely of the opinion at this point in my sort of like career and experience with pelvic floors and vaginas, um, I would probably sort of steer clear.

Um, I would be erring on the side of steering clear.

There's other ways that you can create an articulate, um strong pelvic floor that doesn't generate tightness.

Um, and yeah, it's, it's um, it's really interesting how so much of what we're taught to do, especially like post-birth, is actually creating the conditions for like prolapse and weaker, tighter muscles.

Seen so many people now that have vaginismus, which is like a kind of contracting of the vaginal muscles, meaning that penetration is impossible or just insanely painful A lot of kind of conditions inside the vagina creating just too much contraction and tension.

So I would be way more commonly educating and guiding people to relax and let go of their pelvic floor muscles than I would be trying to help them, tighten them and do Kegels and stuff.

Because that has an impact on orgasm as well.

Right the weaker the pelvic floor, the tighter the pelvic floor, the worse the orgasm.

Is that right?

Yeah, it's definitely going to be more accessible to access orgasm if you have an articulate and relaxed pelvic floor that's able to fully contract and fully let go, rather than that's often in a chronic state of contraction.

And, yeah, pelvic floor muscles that are weak, that can't engage when you want them to engage or, like you know, if you are struggling to be able to isolate them and actually feel the sensation of drawing them in and moving them, um, then that also kind of makes sense that, um, there'll be less sensation and less pleasure available because you know, like toned muscles that have got a lot of blood flow and circulation to them, that are kind of, you know, having access to the nutrients of that circulation and of, you know, freedom of movement, those are the tissues that will have a lot more sensation and you know, your erectile engorgement will be more possible and things like that.

So, yeah, that's so interesting.

That's incredible, and it's a perfect sort of segue for what I wanted to have a chat with you about, which.

So we're recording an episode later on today about fisting, and it seems that fisting might not be this terrible thing for your body that most people are out there thinking right.

Like I had a conversation with my sister-in-law yesterday and she's like, oh, what episodes are you recording tomorrow?

And I was like, oh, I'm talking to Freya Graf and then we're doing an episode on fisting.

And she's like, fisting, oh my God, that's just going to fuck people up.

Like why would people do that to themselves?

Like that could really damage them and hurt them, and it's all bad, all bad.

Is it all bad from a pelvic health specialist's perspective?

Well, I guess the first caveat that I'll say is I'm not an expert on fisting.

I've never really explored it personally, but from a theoretical point of view, from what I know and understand of the pelvic floor and the little I know of fisting, if you're doing it correctly and very intentionally and gradually and kind of working up to it, it's only really possible to fist someone properly if they're in a super, super relaxed kind of state, right, I'm assuming, in a pretty aroused, relaxed space, that where they feel very safe.

Um, so it stands to reason to me that it could be like very incredible, as you know, a way to train and encourage the pelvic floor tissues to lengthen to their full kind of ability, sort of like how, I mean, it's what I think, where I think people are going wrong with like thinking.

I'm assuming maybe the people that are like oh, fisting, surely that's really bad, are thinking it's going to like totally fucking blow out all of your pelvic floor and it'll stretch you out and then your vagina or your butthole will never recover and you'll just all of your shit will fall out.

That shouldn't be the case, but that's coming from this trope around, which is just very, very sex negative and shamey, where we've been told if you have heaps of babies, you're just going to be loose.

If you have too much sex, you're going to be loose.

It's like throwing a hot dog down a hallway.

If you heard that kind of one.

All the teenage boys used to talk about that If you're a slut, then you're loose, you've got a big, gaping vagina.

So I think it's the fear around fisting and what it's going to do to your pelvic floor or, like you know, even like I feel like a lot of um gay guys might get it around anal sex like this stigma that.

Oh, they're gonna have a loose butthole um that's not how these tissues work.

it's just not.

They are literally designed to give birth.

They're designed to lengthen and open so that an entire fucking baby can fit out.

They have the capacity to lengthen that much, and so a fist is, you know, not as big as a baby's head.

And so if you're doing it in a way that is really gradual and the person feels safe and they're relaxed enough and aroused enough and there's enough lube and there's no kind of nails or anything, you know, if you're kind of doing it how it's intended to be done, I imagine it would be pretty freaking cool for the person's pelvic floor because they've trained and that they would be able to give birth and do like an incredible natural and very short labour because their pelvic floor muscles already know how to lengthen to that level.

It's kind of like.

What I imagine would be happening is a little bit like what I'm doing in an internal massage session, except I'm not obviously putting a whole fist up there, I'm just using one finger but I'm sort of massaging and palpating and pushing on ligaments and muscles and tissues in every little corner and nook and cranny of the pelvic floor, which you know the vagina isn't just a penis-shaped tube.

Contrary to a lot of popular belief in the hetero kind of world, it's an entire, it's a collapsed tube that then, if you actually like, press on the walls or the back or the front, you can reach all the way around this entire pelvic space and there's heaps of room in there.

And so I'm moving around, massaging all these ligaments.

I'm, like you know, releasing tension of the ligaments and muscles that attach onto the sacrum and the tailbone at the back.

I'm moving up to the obturator internal.

I'm not going to get all anatomical on you, but there's a lot of structures in there that I'm massaging that a penis wouldn't reach because they're right up in the corner or they're right at the back.

That's really really good and healthy for the tissues because you're bringing fresh blood flow to the area.

And that's really really good and healthy for the tissues because you're bringing fresh blood flow to the area, you're kind of activating them and bringing them online.

You're creating new neural pathways to all of these kind of places that weren't previously even connected.

The brain didn't know they existed, and so I guess fisting would be like a turbo version of that, where you're like really touching on all of these areas in there, you're giving them a proper fucking massage and you're not like necessarily stretching anything, you're just allowing you're, you're kind of encouraging those tissues to lengthen.

And then those tissues that are designed to be able to lengthen, like that, because you've got to be able to push out a baby, they they just sort of like contract back into their natural state.

It's not stretching them so that they aren't able to contract back to their regular length.

It's like other muscles in our body they can contract and lengthen in order to do a bicep curl or in order to walk and move our legs in order to do a bicep curl or in order to, like, walk and move our legs.

You know, the pelvic floor tissues are similarly able to contract and lengthen, and so I guess, like my theory would be, that fisting could be like really good for your pelvic floor and definitely great for preparing for birth.

You've heard here first, fisting is good for preparing for birth.

You know, I'm just sort of jumping on that sort of gym analogy that you put out there and just imagining some gymnast if, like, the same biology applied for everybody Like a gymnast who could do splits and suddenly just walking around with super floppy legs all the time because, like her muscles just don't contract again.

Of course, biologically it doesn't make sense.

But this is the thing about ignorance, right?

If people just thought for just one minute, how can you?

People think, oh well, you can't do fisting because you're going to have a gaping hole.

Have you had a kid?

Yes, I have.

Is your hole gaping after a head came out of it?

No, so it's just the idea that people can just be really stupid and ignorant, that if you just thought about it for a second, you'd understand that.

But, most importantly, at the end of the day, if you are not, if you're not into it, that's cool, but if somebody else is, let them do what they got to do.

If somebody wants a whole arm up them, what's the big deal?

Drop that shame.

As long, what's the big deal?

Drop that shame, as long as, like you're saying, obviously doing it safely, that's all that matters.

Yeah, totally, totally.

Well, that's it.

Because it's like.

You know some people might argue like, oh, but like sometimes people give birth and they tear or they get a prolapse, or like shit does get fucked up in there and it's like, yeah, totally, it can.

Um, and often that's because of stress, medical interventions being told to push before you're ready, all sorts of things.

You're not in a very relaxed space when you're in a hospital with fluorescent lights over you or you're in just so much pain and you're freaking out because it's the first time you've given birth.

So you know things do and can happen in birth that will negatively affect your pelvic floor, of course, and I work with people on rehabilitating that and also preparing for birth so that that is less likely to happen.

But with fisting, ideally they're not in heaps of pain, they're not stressed out.

You're approaching it really gently and slowly and gradually.

So it's not this totally hectic environment.

And if you were to try to approach fisting in a pretty gung ho way with, like, some cunty medical practitioner, that's just like come on, I've got to get to my lunch break, then, like you, probably would fuck up your pelvic floor, but like people who are engaging in fisting are not approaching it like that you know, yeah, exactly, and I love it.

Freya, you have been an absolute fucking delight.

Oh God, this has been so insightful.

You have no idea.

It's been absolutely amazing.

We're going to have to have you on for like several more shows.

Absolutely, there's so much more to talk about I can be the regular like the female counterpart.

Amen, we definitely need it Absolutely.

Far too much testosterone.

Too much testosterone here.

Like I say, I've learned about so much in this past hour.

It's ridiculous, but I'm sure there are also females out there listening that are going to learn just as much as I've learned today oh man, like if nobody's learned anything.

I don't even have a yoni and I want to go and get a massage right now like shit just trying to find someone here in perth to do it all right bloody hell.

No, they are.

They are some.

I've seen the adverts, but thank you so much, freya you have been incredible so, so, so insightful.

It's been amazing where can people find you?

Where can they work with you?

Where can they hit you up?

Where can they listen to you?

yeah, thanks, guys.

Um, so my website's just freyagraphcom.

Um, my instagram's freyagraph underscore the labia lounge and yeah, probably instagram or youtube are my main kind of platforms, although censorship, oh my god don't get me started.

But yeah, definitely go check out if you're into, I know, I know, oh my god, yeah, so check out the labia lounge podcast.

That's probably my most um authentic uncensored platform and it's where I put out a weekly episode of like, yeah, really fucking helpful practical information around everything to do with sex and relationships and intimacy and bodies.

Um, and yeah, yeah, yeah, I would love, love to see you over on the gram.

I'm in Melbourne.

So if you want to have a yoni mapping session or an in-person body work session with me, then yeah, I'm, I'm North side Melbourne.

Otherwise, I work online doing sex coaching and education packages and I have an online course as well.

So, yeah, just at my website, you can find all of those offerings.

But yeah, I'd love to come back on.

This has been heaps of fun.

Oh it'd be great, I want to get back on again.

Yes, 100%.

Yeah, thank you so much, freya, it's been so insightful.

Hopefully we'll have you on again soon and everybody check out Freya's website and the Labia Lounge.

I listened to it yesterday and it was very informative and quite funny too.

Have a listen, guys.

I'm going off to wash your dishes, you idiot.

See that you do Thanks guys.

Cheers, freya, we'll talk to you soon.

Thanks so much.

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