And so that's this powerful cocktail thathits us like cocaine."Oh, I want a little piece of chocolate."Oh, well now yourdopamine levels just went up 55%.that's 1000% over yourbaseline dopamine level.Okay, so I felt it bigly.Oh boy...go, God, it feels like,like I'm a teenager again.The spike is less and less,but you need more to get high.like having sex in a hot air balloon.Never done that before.Welcome to Swinger University.

I'm Ed.And I'm Phoebe.Today is going to be really fascinatingbecause we dive into NRE, or NewRelationship Energy.We talk about some novelty aspects of thelifestyle and how thatreally kind of triggersall of the pleasurecenters in your brain.And we're going to talk about--It creates a pleasure paradox.Yeah.

We're going to talk about chasingdopamine and, of course,the whole addictive aspectof ethical non-monogamy.

So it's going tobe fun.

We're going tohave a good time withit.Let's talk about this a little bit.

We'vetalked about NewRelationship Energy beforefrom the aspect of you and single males,a hot wife aspect of it.Right.

And did you want me to elaborate?Sure.

Let's talk a little bit aboutsingle males or your hot wife experience.Well, let's go into a little bit firstand then I'll provide that as an example.Okay.

I was excited to talk about you.I know.

I know.

So with the NewRelationship Energyscientific chemical thing that goeson with all of us, you've got yourdopamine, yourserotonin, your norepinephrine.Norepinephrine.Norepinephrine.Oh, wow.

Now you got me all tongue-eyed.Norepinephrine.That's it.I can't look at your phonetics.Norepinephrine.

And then that equalsdesire and attraction.And then the oxytocincreates the bonding.Right.And so that's this powerful cocktail thatAnd so that's this powerful cocktail thathits us like cocaine.Yeah.And there's a book I was reading calledDopamine Nation by AnnaLembke.

She's a MD.

And sheShe had some reallyfascinating data in this book.I highly recommend it.This was fascinating to me.I wanna call this out.Let's just say your, well,your dopamine levelsare at your base level.Right.

Right, normally.Let's just talk about normal baseline.You wake up in the morning andyou've had your cup of coffeeand you're at yournormal level of whatever.What is that?You're just normal baseline, right?So after you had your cupof coffee, you're just like,"Oh, I want a little piece of chocolate."Oh, well now yourdopamine levels just went up 55%.55% just from a piece of chocolate.Now let's say, oh, come by 10 o'clock,you're feeling a little frisky.You work with yourpartner at home and you're like,"I want a little," ormaybe it's lunchtimeand you're like, "I want a little nooner.I want you to break."Well, now your dopamine just went up 100%over your baseline.

Right.Fascinating, I didn't know this.Now after your littlerendezvous between the sheets,you're like, "Oh, I could really use acigarette right now.That was just fabulous."Oh, that's 150% over your baseline.Right.Now what I don't know is, is it additive?Does the chocolate withthe sex with the cigarettelike make it 300% over?Right.

I mean,is it a cumulative?Maybe could be.I don't know.That's a very good question.At a party, let'sjust say you're a smoker,you go out, you have a smoke,then you come back in and you're intothe white fluffy stuff called snow.The snow is gonna add an extra 225%over your normal baseline.So now you have the150 with the nicotine,you've had your 225,now you're a whileinto 500 or so percent.Right.I think that was correct math, maybe not.Might not quite that close.If you wanna take it up even moreand you're into ephedamines,that's 1000% over yourbaseline dopamine level.Which is crazy.Right, and that really kind of nailswhy some people get addicted to the drugsbecause it is such a,it's a brain high, right?Like it's releasing all ofthese feel good chemicalsup in your brain.Now, of course, we don'tmention the side effectsof like cocaine, which issevere wallet anxiety and loss.(laughing) And when you don'ttalk about amphetamine,which is loss ofdental work and, you know.Is that the scratching of the faceor is that something else?Yeah, it'll happen with that too, right?So severe facial dismemberment,it typically happenswith methamphetamines.So dopamine can hit pretty darn hardand it can last, Imean, you as a swinger,you could be doing thisfor six months or five years.I mean, going at it, itcould be pretty darn steady.And as you go, depending onhow often you're doing thingsand when you're doing them,now for how long you're doing them,the length could vary.You've got the people,the events, the resorts,and the types of relationshipsthat are all gonna be different factorsfor your dopamine high.Right, so here's somefactors that we can talk about.So one of the thingsthat you can think aboutis if you live in an areathat has maybe a lifestyle clubor you could go every week,like every Saturdaynight, that's your thing.That means Saturday night,you're guaranteed tosee stuff that's going toincrease that dopamine level in your headand you're signed up for it.So if you've got that need, thataddiction to that feelingevery week, every week you're there.And then you start to wonder,like, how long can you sustain that?How long does it, can you keep that up?So it's a trick.

Yeah.And I think later in the episode,I'm not sure if Italk about it down there,but I probably do, but Iwas starting to think aboutwhen there's a certainamount of that addictioncomes in where you've gone to that cluband you've seen andfelt and had an experienceand now you bring that homeand now it's in your brain.And so now- Yeah, the memory, the sounds.Now, when you think about it,it instantly triggers that same response.And with true addiction,all you have to do is think about it.Correct.

And you want it,which is why the step programs are soimportant for addictsbecause you really do have tochange your habits drastically.You have to changeyour, you have to beef upyour support system,change all your friends,remove yourself from those environmentsbecause you're still gonna have your,and reach out to your sponsorbecause when you think about it,it actually, your bodystarts to feel the cravingor feel that need because of the,the brain is powerful.It's the brain drugs, the chemicals.The chemical drugs, yeah.So let's talk about this.Wait, whoa, am I gonnatalk about the single male?Well, that's what I was gonna get into.Oh, okay.We've talked about the chemical aspect,but we haven't really talked about,how does that apply tonew relationship energy?Like what is that?

Yes, yes.Okay, so I felt it bigly.Okay, so I felt it bigly.Oh boy, you went there.Oh boy, you went there.I did go there.When the single malewas giving me attention,it was attention from somebody else.It was attention in thetext message initiallyand usually text messagesdon't do anything for mebut this guy had a way with wordsand he was very talented with his wordsand we met at a bar, all three of us.We hadn't had a, you know, it was great.And then we set up a date.And then when he came over,the interaction was incredible.It was lovely.We had a great time.It was a lot of fun.But that was a different kind of highthan what we have experienced with acouple or in an orgy.And I found myself thinkingwhile I was going on walks,listening to other podcasts,I found myself just mymind kind of wanderingand thinking about that interaction.And it bothered me a bitbecause I didn't want that to,I didn't want to bethinking about it a lot.It started to consume my thoughts,I felt a little bit moreduring the day than I wanted to.And that made me uncomfortable.And I knew that was the chemical reactionstill happening in my body.And it does take probablya good three to five daysfor that to dissipate.So I just waited it out andI talked with you about it.And I said, look, this ismaking me uncomfortable.Right.I don't know what todo with these feelings.I don't know what todo with these feelings.I know they're not realfeelings, they're valid feelings,but they're notfeelings that are gonna make mechange or move my mindon like our connection.But it was oddly weird tokind of stand outside my mindand look at myself andgo, God, it feels like,go, God, it feels like,like I'm a teenager again.It's just so powerful.It was bizarre.Yeah, yeah.The triggering of that dopamine,that new experience causedyour body to feel good things.The memories of that weretriggering the dopamine releaseto be continued.Yes.And then because it wasnovel, it was different.That novelty alsotriggered you to think about itbecause it wasn'tsomething that you were used to.Right, right.So we had a few more interactionsin that regard with singles,but I decided that's probably not for mebecause it just, it messed,messed with my head alittle bit too much.I didn't likethinking about somebody elselike that in that way orlooking forward to that.Now would have gottenbetter if after I got used to itover time, possibly, buthow long would that take?Yeah, I don't know.Because the newness ofswinging kind of dissipated for us.Oh, I don't know.It didn't even get close to dissipatinguntil like maybe aroundyear 10, maybe year 11.Right.Where we have over timebeen to enough events,had enough experiences,been to enough venues andresorts and meet and greets,et cetera, et cetera.Right.That we were kind oflike, yeah, you know.Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.Yep.

Kind of know what to expect.Yeah, that novelty had kind of worn off.It wasn't new inChinese, the new swing or smell,so to speak, kind ofrubbed off a little bit.Yeah, yeah.So, which is actually a really good segueto our next section,which is about noveltyand how novelty, ourbrains crave novelty.They do.So that's 100% reason whyeverybody has their new phone every yearbecause it's new, it's novel.Yep.And the long and short of it is,it's not much differentthan your existing phone.I mean, especially thisparticular one this year.You know, it's, oh,it's like, it's 10% thinnerand it's got one hour more battery life.So companies, salescompanies, organizations,prey on that novelty becauseall of our brains crave it.Like we live for this as human beings.And that's half thereason why NRE is so powerfulbecause it's different, it's novel.It kind of breaks youout of your normal routineand we like trying new things.Well, and on a scientific level,I mean, it's innate to our survival.It's part of our evolution.We crave new foods or weneed to seek new foods.We like seeking out new peopleand new interactions and new places.It's just part of thatinnateness of our being.Right.And so, as we said before, dopamineis gonna be that primary driver.It rewards the pursuit of novelty.So it's quite theloop that you get going.And it does dopaminerelease different amountsin each person.So each person's reward pathwayis going to be a little different.And so once again, it'snot universal to everybody.Not everybody's gonnahave that same experiencein the lifestyle.

Right, that same levelof reaction, that feeling, right?Yeah, and we've seen, we had a couplethat we really, reallyliked that started off hereand they just went...Oh yeah, it was straight into orbit.It was P and V.Yup.They, I mean, you could tell,they just blasted off.They started offprobably at meet and greetsand then went to...Then they werehosting like 20 person orgyhouse party things.And then...And they were vanilla hunting.Drugs started cominginto part of the experienceof it all.

Right.And then, yes, thenthey were vanilla hunting.And then, I mean, it just,wow, they were doing all of it.And I think they may have tried dating separatelyeven for a while.So they tried all of it.I don't know if they went to Polly,which is always my fear.It was like, "Oh myGod, if we start here,then we're gonna be like having a...We don't have a bigenough house to go Polly.I'm just saying, you know,they'd have to sleep herein the podcast room.Not that there'sanything wrong with Polly.I'm not inferring that at all.I just know that's not for me.My brain wouldn't beable to manage all that.My emotions wouldn't beable to manage all that.It's a thing.

It's a thing.Yeah, but some peopleare really wired for that.And I love that for them.I really do.So we can all get high on noveltyand eventually it can be normalizedas I was talking about earlier.We can get a bit desensitized.As you mentioned, been there,done that, bought the t-shirt.I don't get caught up in NRE anymorebecause nine out of 10such flings don't go anywhere.And I have to be selectiveabout taking on new peoplebecause of time and energy constraints.I get NRE from not just aconnection with someone,but I'll get the NRE fromjust the social engagement.Like to me, that's kind of newrelationship energy as well.Right.Where you've met somebody newand they share yourperspective and you're like,oh my God, you're just like me.Oh my gosh, I have the same thing.Or I think the same way.Or I feel the same way.And what about X, Y, and Z?So then you wanna go backand you wanna engage with that person,which sometimes peoplecall that just friendship.But yes, it's in that social settingthat gives me that feeling that I belong,the feeling ofbelonging and just acceptance.And that's really lovely.And I think I will always have thatand I'll always missit when I don't have it,but it's a lovely place to be.Someone asked what vanilla hunting is.Oh, so vanilla hunting is when you're,let's just say at an eye or at a barand our bartender is very sexy.Let's just say it's woman.This actually is kind of a true story.They really happened.And we are just, we'rewaiting for our table to open up.We're at the bar, we're having a drink.And our bartender was awoman and she was just very sexy.Like she was wearingsexy clothes and she,her confidence, so herattitude was very sexy.She was very confident.She would smile.And I swear she would like,just like wink at you without winking.Like you could tell shewas just being super flirty.And I was, and shekept coming back to us.So I kept trying to have privateconversations with Ed.Like, is she flirting with us?What do you think?Should we, right?And so she kept coming back and giving usall this extra attention.And I said, we couldtotally vanilla hunt her.So we thought she was a non-swinger,not in the lifestyle, butdefinitely interested in us.And maybe she really was a swinger.Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't.Well, we didn't find out.No, but the theory is you flirtand with someone who'snot even in the lifestyleand smile, I said, smile.In the lifestyle, Ihaven't even been drinking.And you convert them, you hunt them down.You hunt a vanilla.Even if it's only forone night, one evening,a little bit of fun.Right, where you're ina bar and you're dancingand you're super flirty.And all of a sudden you'redragging a single woman home,dragging, you know,obviously with consent.Home to your house.And she's like, woohoo, you know,what happens one night stays, you know,what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.Right, and then off she goes.And then later in her 60s, she goes,oh, that one night in my 20s when, yeah.At that time, that time in Vegas.Yeah, so.Let's see, another question.Oh, oh, Ken, Ken, Ken, I love Ken, Ken.The real NRE magic forme isn't what I chase.It's the unexpected.Like when someone you're into,but assume would never be into,tells you the same thing.Yeah, that is pretty exciting.That's that unexpected.Oh, me?It's very flattering to get that kind of.Yes.Unexpected validation, if you will.Yes, I have had that happen.We were in Costa Rica when that happened.We were in the pooland there was somebody,I had already, Ed and Ihad already had like a littleside line conversation where,because we reallywanted to kind of hone inon a couple of thecouples and try to make a date,like a dinner date coming up or apotential play date.We really wanted to be more forwardwith our next conversation,because we really liked them.So we were getting our strategy together.And so I was like, nope,nope, yes, definitely, nope,as we were going around the pool.And so then we knew wherewe were gonna spend our time,because we had already had conversationswith a lot of these people.And one of the nopes was actually,I guess after I saddledup next to him at the bar,got my drink and hestarted talking to me.And something about what he was sayingwas different than before.And then all of a sudden we were kissing.And then once we were kissing, oh man.It was all over then.It was all over.Don't believe me, kicked in.There was something about that kissthat was just like fire.And I'm like, oh yes, my mind's changed.Yes, this person justmoved to the top of the list.Yeah, yeah, for sure.It was so much fun.It was so much fun.We've definitely had situations like thatwhere just not expectinganything to happen that night.And then the next thing you know,we're like in a playroomor something's happened.Yeah, which is why I don't completelyever write somebody off.I just use the nope,nope, yes, definitely.Or like I said, we'regonna focus our energybecause you can't pursuesix couples at the same time.You kind of have to, you can,but you also have to lock in oneif you're gonna get anywhere.Unless you just say allsix of you party in our room.Come on, dad.That's right, and that has happened.That has happened also.That has happened.So, Pleasure paradox.Part of this is thiswhole addiction cyclethat we've been talking about,but then there's thisconstant bombardmentof the pleasure centers in your brain.So they're just being hitover and over and over again.Yeah.Basically, everyday life.And this is probably the best example.And this is why a lotof people have issueswith social media.A lot of psychologists or scientistsare having issues with social mediabecause that dopamine scrolling,you even hear people refer to it as that.Yes.Where you're lookingfor the next funny, cute,entertaining podcastthat just happens to pop upon your screen and youjump into the live room.We're doing this allday long, most people are.Yeah, you do way more than I do.I don't on purposebecause it's a time suckand I could be there forever.And I have so littletime, I need all my time.So, everyday life hasbecome this all time highand society has really been drugified.The drugified is normal.Right.And normal and healthyactivities like sex, eating,playing games, etcetera is even drugified.Yeah, I mean, here'ssome common vanilla thingsthat we could talk about, food.They add things to foodto make them more savory,more tasty, more who knowswhat they're putting in there.So, you can't eat just one, right?Like they even havecommercials talking abouthow addictive the food is.Remember we watched thedocumentary on the chipand the science behind the potato chipand the specialmachine they had designed.To create that crunching sensationand how long it lastedand yeah, all of that.And the flavor and how itdissipates on your palateand how it moves around your mouth.I mean, there is some serious sciencebehind a potato chip.And then we can talkabout just sex in general.It's not only available anywhere.I mean, we're all walking aroundwith little porn machinesin our pockets all the time,but it's on TV too.And if you, and I'mglad that it's becominga little bit more normalizedand that people aren'tfreaking out about sexas much as they used to,but television shows now,like they're full blown sex scenes.And because mostpeople watch TV on cable,we're talking like fullfrontal nudity most of the time.The only thing they don'tshow is penetrative sex.Right.Yet.Right.Yet.Game of Thrones in a coupleof seasons, you never know.You just get there.But kind of peeling backeven from the sex scenesand that kind of aspect of it,think about how fashion has evolvedand how even like ahalftime show at the Superbowlis very sexualized.Like everything aboutpretty much anythingthat we do in entertainment,it's like very sexily dressed.They're gyrating their hips.And this has beengoing on for a long timebecause Elvis's biggestproblem was that he gyrated his hipsand it was very sexual.And so people had hugeproblems with Elvis Presleyand his dance moves.And it hasn't changed, right?Like there's still this constant floodingof sexual imagery inpretty much everything we do.I prefer that to then maybethe constant violent stimulusthat we're getting all the time too,but it does become kindof desensitized over time.Yeah, and due to thatconstant dopamine highoutside of our normal dopamine levels.Right, that just woke up.Yeah, the brainreally does try to regulateby seeking balance.Yeah.And thus reducingyour dopamine productionbecause it's trying to seek balance,which is why thetheory is a lot of peopleare kind of slippinginto that depressive statebecause your brain isbecause your brain isconstantly trying to regulate that.And it becomes thischronic dopamine deficitwhere the spike is less and less,but you need more to get high.Well, and part of thattoo is that the levelthat you've becomeaccustomed to is so disproportionatelyhigh that when you're not at that level,you feel like you're wrong.Yeah.And so that's the real kindof danger part about that is,I feel terrible when I'm not doomscrolling on my phoneor when I'm not eating foodor when I'm not having sex.That's where it's really badbecause you've gotten soused to this weirdly high levelof excitement all thetime that everythingat a normal level,which would have been like,wow, this was a great experienceas now it's not so great.Yeah, yeah.And so then why, right?And four factors haveincreased, the quantity,the access or availability,the potency and the novelty.This all affects thedopamine center of the brain.Yes.And so when you'rechasing a dopamine highand perhaps have that E&M,ethical non-monogamy addictive behavior,that dopamine is gonna be extremelysensitive to novelty.And I will say thatsecrecy that we used to have,that was really exciting.Oh yeah, you feellike you're getting awaywith something.Oh yeah.It's the, ooh.Oh my God.If the neighbors onlyknew what we were doing.If my parents knew,like if the neighbors knew,like you feel like, Iremember the first time I had sex,I swear to God, I felt like Ihad a neon sign on my foreheadand I felt like everyone was gonna knowbecause I looked different.Right.People would justlook at me and they'd go,(gasps)"You're no longer urgent."Right?And nobody knew.No.But that was the same--They do it in the movies all the time.They're like, "You'vegot a glow about you."You got laid."I know.It was the same thingwhen we'd go out, right?And then we wereraising children at the timethat we were doing thisand they were teenagersand they were veryaware of what was going on,like around the household and--Right, not specificallythe swinging, but yes.No, but they were very keen on noticinghow patterns started to change, right?Noisy little bastards.They saw everything.Where you're going, what you're doing,why are you dressed like that?How come you're wearing a long coat?It's really hot outside.What's in the bag?Why are you taking a bag?Like, oh my God, all the questions.And so once the questions,we realized they weremuch smarter than we thought.I'd start sneakingthe bag into the trunk,into the car, like hours before.So they didn't see usleaving with it, right?And then I'd have to, andI wouldn't wear the coatand I'd change in the car.I'd wear something completely different.Oh my gosh, it was, but it was annoying,but that was excitingbecause we were likegetting away with something.We're like, dun, dun, dun, dun.We had a secret.We were part of thesecret swinger society.I'm giving all like superchargedjust by thinking about it,because it was a new sign.And now we're out andit's not exciting anymore.Well, so one of the other aspectsthat I think a lot ofpeople get hooked onare swinger vacations.And depending on, we'lljust pick on them, the resorts.They're all inclusive.Alcohol is freely flowing.There's like acritical mass of naked peoplerunning around doingnaughty secret things.And then there's pool games, right?Yes, dance parties.It's like the best vacation ever.Oh yeah.Because you get to benaked with other people.And theme nights and you get to shopfor the theme nights ahead of time,which adds to the excitement, I know.Some people get reallyhooked on that and we have heard,and I don't know how they afford it,obviously in a totally different taxbracket than we are,but going to likehedonism multiple times a yearor desire multiple times ayear, that's fricking great.But are they chasing that high?Are they trying toget back to that feelingof where they were before?And is that what that's about?I mean, some of it'sthe relationships too.Yeah, and not that there'sanything wrong with that.Other than we can't go, but besides that.And a lot of people will, I'm sure they,well, I'd like to thinkthat they budget for it.That's the accountant in me thinkingthat they're budgeting for that.But a lot of peoplecan't play in their town.And so that's what theylook forward to twice a yearbecause they have tobe out of the countryor out of their state to do that.Right.So there are also positivebenefits to the relationshipwhere you're justifyingthat it's a good thing.Right.Then there's thatpleasure seeking where you're,maybe the next event's gonna be better.And we did that too.Right.Because the events that we were going toin the beginning were just, oh my God.They were a little snoozy.They were so snoozy.We had a couple that were really good,which started us off on that.And then there was likethis weird lull in the middle.Yeah.Like the first six months or a year.Honestly, I thinkbecause we were, for me,I was so desirous oftrying to figure out,what's going on orwhy everyone else seemedto have it figured out orhow everyone else is doing itor what's the secret sauce.Right, right.That we just kept goingbecause we kept feelinglike we were just failing at it.Yeah.Just like, we're like.We're gonna fake it till we make it.Yeah, and so we give ourselves homework.We're like, we didn'ttalk to anybody again.Oh my God, we're such dorks.And then they were like, okay, well,we gotta give ourselves homework.So this time we're gonnatalk to at least one couple.And then so we wouldbeeline it over to a couple.And then we increased it tothree couples every event.Gotta talk to at leastthree couples every event.And then eventually we got used to itand we got used toseeing some of the same faces.And then we started to feelcomfortable in the community.But it took a while.I mean, it took a long time.It was so awkward and it was infuriatingbecause here we are inour forties doing this.I'm starting over essentially.Starting over and I'm like, Ifeel like a freaking teenager.I'm like, just like, what?It was awkward.Why?I hate this awkwardness.What are we doing?Bleh.How do we talk topeople?

I'm an adult now.It was just, it was so annoying.Then, did you wanna say something?I know I'm talking a lot.No, no, this is good.I remember those earlyyears with some like,if I'd known then what I know now,maybe we wouldn't havegone to those parties.Maybe we would havejust switched up parties.But at the time that was allthat we knew that was going on.But yeah, yeah.Okay, so here's kind of Ken comments.Yeah.Oh, he did Heto for the first time,oh, three years ago.And that is nuts.It's like the Jedifinal exam for swingers.Nonstop play, it's awesome.But once a year is enough,even if the money is no object.Yeah, and for those whohave not been to hedonism,the comparison that I've heard betweendesire and hedonism,cause we haven't been to desire,but we haven't been to Heto,is hedonism is like thatparty that's on 11 all the time.Like, it's the hip play.So if you really want tohook up with other couples,like Heto is the place to goand desire is a little bitmore like slow to warm upand a little bit more onthe whining and dining aspectand less on thehedonism of the whole thing.Right, and hedonism hasa lot of groups that go.So if you can go with agroup that fits your preference,then that's even more fun.Right, even more chance for trouble.I will say you can step away from the go,go, go there as well.There are parts of thatresort that are nice and quiet,and you can just rest andrecharge and do your own thing,take a down day, that'ssuper easy to do there.And I did plenty of thatbecause I don't alwayslike being in the fray.But if you want to be inthe fray 24 seven, absolutely.Yeah, and actually this is a good thing.I don't even think weput it in the outline,but we did talk about itin, oh no, it's in heretowards the seeking the balance.But we haven't talked about it yet.And that's this sense of FOMOand that's this fear of missing out.Oh yeah.Hedonism certainly kicks up FOMObecause even if you're on the,I don't even thinkthey call this anymore.They used to call it theprude side and the nude side.Yeah, I think they rebranded that.Yeah, I think they got rid of it.Because I think they feltlike they were leaving people outor made them feel badbecause they were on thenon-party side of the island.But let's say you dodecide to go take a napor you do decide to take it down a notchbecause you were up all nightand you were drinking and dancingand doing all the fun stuff.You hear the partygoing on or you see it,you see all the peoplegoing there and you're like,"Oh man, I'm missing out.There's gotta be, there'ssomething great going on right nowand I'm missing it."So one of the other addictive thingsis you have this fear of missing out onthat next experienceor that that couple that'spotentially gonna get awaythat you gotta get them while it's goodbecause otherwise you're gonna miss outand they're gonna be gone.And we definitely feltthat a number of times.Yeah, and I will feel FOMO very stronglywhen one of our couplefriends is going on one of those,a fun trip.And I'm like, "Dang it, I can't go."Or, "I really wanna go but I can't."And then they're there and I'm like,"Text me pictures, keep me up to date."Because I have to live through them.For sure, for sure.Yeah, I know.I don't know why that affects me so much.Usually it affects me whenI'm not having enough funin my own life.If my life, my pie of life has gotten alittle out of balanceand I need to take more time for me.That's usually when I feel FOMO morebecause I'm missing more of just that.The escape.Yeah.The escape of the grind,the day in and day out grind of things.Tell me about it.Part of my journey in the lifestyle waswhen we came out with our faces,it felt like this imposter syndromebecause we were getting compliments,oh my God, I love yourpodcast, blah, blah, blah.We're not really anybody, we're just,we just sit behind amicrophone and we just do this thing.Right.But it was greatbecause we got good feedbackwhich kept us motivated,but then it was weirdbecause it was like this weirddichotomy and then thenovelty of kind of thatwore off and not surereally where I'm going with this.(laughing)My outline is suckingright now at this point.Well, I'll pitch in a little bit herebecause I think wedefinitely got to a pointwhere the newness, the excitement,that kind of the novelty of being secrethad gone away, right?Because we'd come out.So the secrecy had gone away.So we lost a little bitof that dopamine rush.But then there was also a weird thingthat happened right around that timewhere we decided thatwe were going to be,we were going to treatit more like a business.The podcast.The podcast.Right.And because of that, itbecame a lot more seriousand we wanted to get more listenersand we wanted to like getfollowers on social mediaand do that whole thing.Well, and because wewanted to reach more peoplebecause being a podcasterand advertising a podcastis extremely difficult.A lot of people don't even know what apodcast is right now.So you have to advertise it.And I hate advertising.Well, yeah.And that became, I thinkthe biggest kind of pieceof imposter syndrome forus was it felt uncomfortableto market and to push the podcast.Because we did it for fun.We did it to help otherpeople and to communicate,you know, all of thesecrash and burn scenariosthat we'd been through and the awkwardkind of teenage yearsof starting as a swinger, so to speak.Right.And once we'd kind oflike got that train rolling,it kind of got away from us a little bit.And I think that's wherethe novelty of the whole thingfor us had kind of worn off.And that's where we'vetried to like reinventand change the podcast sothat it was fun and noveland interesting for us again.Yeah.And then, well, we arein year like 11 or 12 now.And the novelty ofswinging has dissipated.Yeah, it's not as new and excitingas it used to be for us, for sure.And so the focus now has changed for us.The focus really is not somuch on the sex aspect of it.It's more focused on the communityand building those relationshipsand having great funwith people, conversations,maybe traveling with them.We've got friends thatwe travel with sometimes.And it's really nicebecause you can be very openwith those individualsand you feel more complete.Right.You're not hiding anything.Nothing's a secret.You just, it's all out there.And it's very freeing.It's comfortable.And so it's nice to be able to do that.So it's interesting howit's shifted over time.Now, will we make, will it shift again?I'm sure it will.Well, we just heardabout a fantastic partythat had us super excitedand tons of FOMO just hit us.So, holy crap.Okay, so let's tell them.We wanna go.So we're in the Swinger Mastermind Group.It's a bunch ofpromoters getting togetherand event coordinatorsand people in that industry.And we all support oneanother and share ideas.So, what are the promoters in there?Does a event every summerup to what, 1800 people?Yeah, he's trying to get,he thinks they're gonnabe up to 1800 this year.In Oklahoma, on 120 acres of land,he's got security, he's gotfood trucks, DJs, vendors,bathrooms, showers.Hot air balloons.Hot air balloons.You could go naked in a hot air balloon.What is not to love about that?You could have sex in a hot air balloon.I will say it is very,hot air balloons can be pretty dangerous.I've ridden in one, thelandings are pretty rough.So if you're naked, probably not.Wear a cup.Bring some support.Don't get caught on the basket.Yeah, don't, no.Yes, and so it's camping.So you're bringing yourRV, you bring your tent,whatever you wanna stay in.And I think it's only forwhat, three days, maybe four.Yeah, I didn't get all the details on it,but just how manypeople were gonna be thereand the kinds of funthings that they were doing.Yeah.Some of the contests and fun activitiesthat he was describing.It just sounds like a hoot.Yeah, he kinda described it like,kinda like a burner event,like Burning Man with swinging.And it's kind of a mashup.Yeah.So.Yeah, those kinds of experiences,which are just like,sensory, super exciting.Now you can see how this kind of fits inwith this episode, right?Yeah.I'm hearing all of these really exciting,thrilling things going on.Novel things thatI've never tried before,like having sex in a hot air balloon.Never done that before.Right.Absolutely, now it is on my bucket list,which is one of thosethings where it's like,damn, I didn't evenknow that was a thing.Now I have to do it.Right?Oh my God.I know.And the theme is gonnabe like Summer of Love,so 60s, flower power,all kinds of fun stuff.So Ed and I were like,right before the episode,we're like, oh my God,maybe we should try andmake this event happen.(laughs) You know, maybe wecould get some cheap ticketsto Oklahoma.Right.And I'll fly down there.And then what was my second thought?My very second thought was,I'm not gonna get any sleep.Yeah, yeah, which is a whole other thing.Because we're gonna be in a tentand I'm not gonna get any sleep.Oh!Hotel, there are hotelsnearby and they have shuttlesthat will shuttle you back and forth.Maybe that's what we do.Or we like rent a truck or somethingwhen we sleep in the backand we take our new tent thing.Oh!But still, if there's abig party going on around,the FOMO kicks inreally hard when you hearthe(grunting)going on.So I don't know.Well, we'll discuss that.Yeah.There's a hunter in theblue, there might be an alien.Here are the real life discussionsof what we're talking about.Because now I'm thinking,maybe I do wanna go with the hotel routebecause I can separatemyself from the constant stimulusbecause I do need my downtime.Right, pretty tight.Because I get too overstimulated,so I have to oo-saw andthen I can go and jump back in.So maybe the hotel wouldbe great, then I come back.We'll see.We'll see.But you do miss a lot of connectionswhen you kind of remove and come backand you remove yourself.Yeah, we've definitelyexperienced that before.Nice being immersed.Yes.I know.So we'll see.(laughing)We will see.A news thing we haven't tried yet.So that brings us to seeking balance.Yes.Seeking balance to the pleasure paradox.Honesty, if you feel likeyou have an addiction to itand your finances are running really lowbecause you're out every weekend.You've been to Hito four times this year.Right.Maybe you have some honesty towards that.Spread out the fun.Try to consciously spread that out.Make sure your pie is more balanced.Entertainment pie is balanced.You've got vanilla life.Do some vanilla travelalong with your swing or travel.Yes.

Don't make it all fun.Yes.I mean, vacation should be fun too,but not that kind of fun.And then take breaks if you need to.Remember that normal is okay.Your lifestyle versus hobby.Right.We did an episode onthat last week, right?Yeah, yeah.We kind of view it.We think that we've done both.In the beginning, it was more of a hobby.We just kind ofdabbled, do, do, do, right?And then it became more ofsomething that was all the time.Everything was that focus.And now we're probably morein the hobby aspect of it.It's a little differentbecause this has becomemore of a business for us.So it's part of our, it'sour part-time job, basically,that we don't get paid for.Because it requires a great deal of work.And I think one ofthe other aspects that,and this plays into the social mediaand a lot of the other stuffthat we were talking about,but I think it alsoapplies in the lifestyleand that's don't compare.So someone isn't having more fun than youand trying to have that comparison.And this gets really hard,especially when youstart talking about sexand the level of, you know, how manyorgasms she's havingversus how many yourhabits that's happenedor how many you're having.Yeah, he's doing better jobon this and that or whatever,or they're having more fun.Or your husband's havingmore fun with this other one.Or they've got it all figured outand we don't have it figured outand I don't understand what's wrong.That was always my thing.I was like, why don't we have it?Why don't we have this figured out?Why is it so?Because it's hard, because it's life.It's real life and there's feelings andthere's stuff going on.And it's messy and you're coordinating.And I was gonna say thatthis honesty towards addictionreally comes down to kind ofmindfulness and introspection.And I think it's really importantto kind of take a stepback from things sometimesand really think aboutwhy am I having the feelingsthat I'm having orwhy do I feel compelledto always find the next event?Yeah.You know, there's somehealth, mental healthin taking a step backfrom things, as you said,and really reassessing occasionallyand having that healthy perspective.And we did.I put the brakes on at one pointand we took about an eight month break.Sure, yeah.Because I was just sotired of trying to figure outthe swinging lifestyleand figure out datingand figuring out couplesand figuring out protocol.And there's just somany things to figure outthat it just, my brain was full.Right.And I just needed to not think about it.So what are some waysthat people can kind oflike re-centerthemselves or ground themselvesthat would be helpful for this,to kind of take astep back from the phonesand the events and the partiesand all of the dopaminestuff that's going on?Mm-hmm.I would say just stepaway from the lifestylefor a little bit.Yoga, walking, exercisehas always been my go-to.Yeah.It really, really does help.Meditation, if that's what you're into.Going backpacking out in the woodsand relaxing and just not having stuff.Mm-hmm.And when you're out backpacking,you can't be on your phones,you can't be checking for events,you can't be seeing howwell the last episode did,all of that kind of stuffthat I get caught up in.Yeah, I wouldn't evensay go to a meet and greetunless you're immune to FOMObecause if you're not a meet and greet,you're gonna find someonethat's going to some new partythat you hadn't heardabout and you'd be like,"What?

I wanna know."Or some new telegramchat that you're not in.And it's like, "Oh myGod, oh, I feel so left outbecause I'm not in that telegram chat."And then, yeah, it's torture.So just wait it out.Wait out this dopamine.I let your body kind of settle back downand your brain will naturally striveto reach that homeostasis.Yeah, and kind of a bonus tip for this,and this isn't in the episode,but it kind of playson a lot of this stuffand that's pace yourself, right?Like if you're going at it nonstopto the point where you'reprobably gonna burn out,maybe just go to a few less events,maybe not go to every meet and greetthat happens to come up.Give yourself that breakand kind of meter it outa little bit so that youcan kind of have high momentsand then you can kind of,"Oh yeah, we had such agood time last weekend.It was so much fun."Live in those feelings for a little bitand the memory of it instead of tryingto get the next onegoing and kick it off again.Yeah, and guaranteed when people are,they tell you, "Oh, ohyeah, we have like 20 friendsand we all travel together."And you're like, "What?""Yeah, I wish I had that."I call bullshit.It's bullshit.It's not true.Travel is to the localclub and it's two friends.It's not real, like 100%.So don't get all wound up like I used tobecause I quickly figuredout that their descriptionis not even close to reality.Right, right.Well, you've had five drinks in a night.Everybody's the hottest people you'veever had at a party.It just happens.I know.Ken talks about in here,we'll address some questions here.Yeah, Oklahoma, I knowthat's exactly what I said.I was like, "Holy crap,that's like in the middle ofsuper conservative South," so to speak.I know.I guess it's the dirtySouth of it's in Texas area.But anyway, and yeah,I'm kind of convincedwith as many Mormonswaggers that we've run acrossin the lifestyle in the 10 yearsthat there's some really repressed peopleare they come out hard.Like they are the hardpartiers and apparently swingingand they have like 1800people come out of the woodworkjust for that event.And I absolutely like yourstrategy Ken for two days,have a blast, let it all hang out.And then you're like,"Can't do that all the time.I need a couple of days torest and put some ointmenton things because I'm a little sore."I know.We've had those parties before.We have, yeah.And then yeah, it does.It kind of puts things in alittle perspective for youbecause you're like,"Get too old for this.Get too old for this shit."Yeah, yeah.So yeah, dopamine is a real thing.I never really looked at that chemicaland natural chemical response of the bodyand how it reallydoes fuck with your mind.Well, it happens automatically.So it's not evensomething you have to think about.It just happens to you.I know.And this is why doctors are so carefulwhen they prescribe anykind of mood altering drugbecause it can have great impactsand they tend to step you up carefullyand step you down carefullybecause of the way italters your mood and your mind.I mean, it's no joke.No, and if you think about that,you've got thisnormalized level of maybe dopamineand then you go off of your medsand then you drop toan abnormal under low.And that's why things are...There's actually another strategythat happens with that too.But because I'm not atherapist or a psychologistor a doctor, we just saythe fancy doctor-y wordson a podcast.We recommend a group thatdeals with this kind of stuff.And if you want to talkto a coach or a counselorabout this, we highly recommend it.We absolutely believe in couples therapyand, you know, swingertherapists and all of that stuff.We'll put a link to a group calledExpansive Connectionat the bottom of thisepisode in the show notesand reach out to them, talkto them about their services.We've had them on our episodesbefore we've done interviews with them.And we highly recommendseeking professional helpif you need somebody to talk to.And they practice the lifestyle.They're in the lifestylein some form, shape or form.Some of them are polyamorous.Some have a staff of,I think, four people,one gentleman, I think three women.And yeah, they're really great.Yeah, good people.Really great resource.And I love that they'reavailable to this community.Absolutely.Thanks everyone.Thanks everyone for tuning in.We appreciate you joining our littleWednesday night party.Don't forget your homework.Tell a friend about our show.And if you want, leave a reviewand definitely leave acomment, even if it's just an emojiand I'll steal this from somebody else.And if you know who it is,you can also leave that in a commentbecause, you know, engagement.You can leave us avoicemail at 916-538-0482or you can contact us atswingeruniversity.com.Well, thank you all for tuning in.And as we say, keeplearning, keep growingand keep it sexy.And we'll talk to you guys next time.And if you want tocatch next week's episode,you do have to join Patreonbecause we have tokeep balance in our life.And every otherWednesday is the public episodes.But if you want tohear the behind the scenesand the stuff that wasgoing on in our private lives,stuff that we don't talkabout in the main episode,you might have tocheck us out on Patreon.So, till next time.Ciao, ciao.(upbeat music)