Meredith Oke: You.

Hi, Caitlin.

Welcome to the QVC podcast.

It's so great to meet you.

Katelyn Lehman: It's so nice to meet you too, Meredith.

Thanks for having me.

Meredith Oke: My pleasure.

So I heard about you because you have a clinic in Los Angeles called the Quantum Clinic.

I was like, ooh, what's that?

So I noticed that you're, you know, you've really, your approach is, comes from a place of quantum coherence.

Like when I, when I read your work or go to your website, that's a starting place for you.

Could you just share sort of what that means to you and how you explain it to people, the concept of quantum coherence?

Katelyn Lehman: Sure, absolutely.

So I think before I dive right into that, it's helpful to have a little bit of a frame of reference for how I approach this emergent paradigm of understanding.

And anytime we talk about quantum systems, obviously people have these, you know, typically one of two reactions.

They either think we're talking about quantum mechanics, you know, and observer, you know, wave particle duality, you know, they get really granular with it.

And there is a lot of science coming out that sort of is in that realm, but there's also this other realm which is a little bit more kind of based in an understanding of mind body science.

So understanding that that awareness or that field, that observer actually is operating inside of us.

So for me, with my background being in clinical psychology, I have a doctorate in clinical psychology and was practicing here in Los Angeles county for about 15 years before starting Quantum Clinic.

I wanted to really, you know, empower people with the skills and space to be able to begin to develop what's called interoception or that awareness of their internal states so that they can create greater coherence in their own lives from the inside out.

Right, right.

Because coherence though it is, you know, it, it can be defined as simply a, it's a degree of correlation in the electromagnetic field.

Resonances, right.

Electromagnetism, the spectrum of light beyond just visible light.

All things emit a, a small but measurable electromagnetic field, including every cell in our body and every thought.

Right.

Creates a pattern of this information flowing throughout our physical body.

And so we really work at that intersection there of where intention and the active cultivation of these positive or life affirming emotional states, which really then catalyzes or creates the conditions for, for physiological coherence.

And so primarily at Quantum Clinic, we're working with heart brain coherence.

That's something that a lot of people these days are familiar with or have heard about.

But you Know, they're wanting to like, have an experience of it.

And so that's.

Hopefully that answered your question.

Meredith Oke: Yes, I love.

No, that was beautifully expressed.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks, Dr.

Lehman.

I.

And brought up something that I've been kind of grappling with lately.

So, you know, I have my background, I was an English major and worked as a executive coach.

So I'm like, by no means a scientist.

And I was very much in, in the world of energy medicine and, and healing for personal reasons.

And I started to understand some of the basics of quantum physics and quantum biology.

And for some of us, like, for you and for me, it's like, oh, there's science that's explaining, you know, distance healing, energy healing, all of the things.

But what I've noticed is that the scientists are still managing.

And you alluded to this in your answer, right.

Like, they're still managing to somehow acknowledge that it exists, but just pull out some practical scientific applications and not shift the paradigm at all.

Katelyn Lehman: Right.

Meredith Oke: And I think I, I think I thought like, oh, now that quantum biology is real, everyone's going to understand that we're energetic beings alight.

And it's not happening.

I know I was, I was naive.

Katelyn Lehman: It is happening.

And that's important to honor and acknowledge.

It's just that our institutions and general medical practice.

Right.

Is very much rooted in Cartesian, you know, Western understanding of the split between mind and body.

Right.

We are our entire.

You know, the development of Western medicine was rooted in the belief that the body could be viewed as, you know, sort of this hermetically sealed object, right, that could be tinkered with like a machine and, and that, you know, sort of we just left the soul or the spirit or the, the, the life force with, through which this whole symphony of a body being is, is, is activated through.

We leave that over there to the philosophers and the religious scientists and we, we focus exclusively on, on, on this kind of narrow view of human experience.

And that led to a lot of incredible developments in Western medicine.

And, and certainly it's not, you know, let's throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I think right now we're in a place where, and psychology has a big part to play in this.

Where how can we communicate about the emergent paradigm in a way that intuitively makes sense to those who have a little bit more of a traditional approach to health and human functioning.

Meredith Oke: Yes, yeah, no, definitely.

And I think what I've been following the field of quantum biology and there's the academic part of it is Growing.

And there are more and more people who are, you know, it's not like a, a weird thing anymore.

No, but when I read their work, it's like entirely focused on creating medical devices or pharmaceuticals or technology.

Katelyn Lehman: Technology as, as something as it.

Meredith Oke: External.

And any other repercussions of this, you know, of what this science is really telling us is, is just being completely ignored.

And I was like, how can you.

And then I was like, oh wait, but that's what we did 100 years ago with quantum physics.

We made computers and bombs and didn't shift our materials materialist paradigm one inch.

Katelyn Lehman: Yes.

Yeah.

Meredith Oke: At least in, in the mainstream scientific community.

And I just see it happening again.

Katelyn Lehman: So Meredith, we, the.

We, the wicked witches of the west, must unite.

Refuse to allow that to happen.

Meredith Oke: That's what we're doing here.

That's the goal.

Right.

Because the other thing I noticed about the scientists is that they have absolutely like, no, like it's completely out of their wheelhouse to communicate their findings to the general public.

Right.

Like, you know, well, that's not.

Sunlight is so important and blue light is so bad.

And they're like, oh yeah, no, we know it's terrible.

They tell us.

But there's no.

So that, that storytelling bridge is what you're saying?

Katelyn Lehman: Yeah, yeah, that there's a storytelling bridge and a communication component to, to translational science.

Right.

Taking the traditional academic research and the journal articles and then kind of conveying that to a public audience or a general audience is a skill in and of itself and one that, you know, there are more and more thought leaders out there doing just that.

And I think this conversation is a part of that.

Right.

We all are in a position where many of us, especially those who are drawn to kind of like the intuitive energy oriented modalities or paths to living a more vibrant, sustainable, joyous and healthy life.

We, we have all of this intuitive understanding and because we live in a culture that really only validates strict empiricism.

Right.

To, to, to.

As the, as the metric for determining truth.

Right.

Or you know, suggesting that something could be, quote, real.

Right.

We all feel like we're a bunch of quacks when in reality, you know, the emergent paradigm is fundamentally different in that it allows for the multiplicity of experience to be equally valid even when those two experiences fundamentally contradict one another.

Right.

That, that, that, that is a part of this journey.

And as humanity continues to evolve, it's my belief that we will ultimately arrive at a place where we can, can embrace that diversity of Experience and the multiplicity of lived realities as, as a strength and not a threat to the hegemony of, you know, the way in which our culture sort of like perpetuates a particular view as, as the gold standard for truth.

Meredith Oke: Yes, and it's interesting to hear you say that because that was kind of where I was landing yesterday.

I was having a meditative moment and it's like, you know, but yeah, it'll be what it'll be and we, but the beauty of it is that we get to do whatever we want.

Katelyn Lehman: Here we are.

Meredith Oke: Here we are.

Yeah, we have this technology and we can.

Katelyn Lehman: Well, we are the technology and that's the, you know, I think that's to, to your point earlier, there's, there's all of this awakening in, you know, and I'm someone who art advocates for.

We, we need a completely new scientific paradigm, a set of, you know, we need a new ontological foundation upon which our science can, can reimagine itself.

Right.

This, this strictly reductionist way of understanding the world simply hasn't worked out.

And so I'm really fascinated by kind of complexity science and ecological systems theory in addition to quantum mechanics and quantum physics.

I think there's a really interesting conversation right now that ultimately brings us back to some of the very ancient conversations that philosophers have been having for, for millennia, right?

Which is that it appears that there's this divine intelligence embedded in the fabric of the universe, right?

At all, across all scales, right?

From, from the Planck scale, you know, which is the smallest scale below which the laws of physics, you know, fall apart, right?

The Planck scale, bits of information to atoms, to, you know, molecules, to cells, to organs and bones and bodies.

And you know, then you keep zooming out and so, so it's really about, it really comes back to, I think, embracing the reality that there are questions in this universe for which there will never be finite answers, right?

To, to we will there.

And that's the nature of, that's the nature of reality.

So how do we, how do we even work with that?

And what do we, what is it within our power to choose to create a world that supports more people having access to, you know, these, these methods, these techniques that support their well being and their health and human functioning, right?

So when, when we talk about heart, brain coherence at Quantum Clinic, really truly it's, it's a meditative practice.

It's the synchronized entrainment of three variables.

Respiration, heart rate variability and blood pressure.

And that can be done by connecting, you know, your Intention with your breath and your body.

But really what sets it off, what really elevates those coherence scores is, is the cultivation of joy or love or gratitude or deep appreciation.

Right.

These, these felt experiences of awe and wonder and authenticity.

Right.

That, that is what sets your coherence score apart from just an ordinary meditation.

And you can really begin to practice that.

And you know, so people would say, well, why would I?

Well, because it feels good to be in those states certainly.

Right.

And ultimately, you know, it's associated with approximately 5,000 different neurochemical and neurobiological changes in the body.

Right away from stress, it's sort of.

And into these life affirming states which supports a deeper integration of trauma, of interpersonal stress, of emotional dysregulation, et cetera, et cetera.

And those are the things that like cause people to have premature health, you know, issues like to get sick.

Right.

Is, is, is truly a relational dynamic.

You know, germ theory has its place, don't get me wrong.

Like yes, germs are real.

I have a kid, I have a six year old.

So like I know germs are real, but it's also germs at school with his friends, right?

Like, you know, like, so it's, there's, there's, you know, so again it's not, we don't have to throw out the old paradigm in order to create space for the new.

And that's really, I think an important part of the larger conversation here is like how, how do we, how do we like come together and move through this with joy and love and respect for one another?

Meredith Oke: Yes.

Yeah, I love that.

And, and you know, I see this science because sometimes I have people, they're like, you know, they're like, what do you mean?

What do you mean that there's finally evidence for quantum effects than human systems.

Like of course, of course, we are quantum beings.

What do we need that science for?

But I see it as a bridge, as you're saying, as we're all in a slightly different place, let's say ontologically and each step forward it builds a bridge that it could be, we could use in our own unique way to get to our next place.

Katelyn Lehman: 100%.

Meredith Oke: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it would be wonderful to have a medical device that treats cancer with light instead of chemotherapy.

Like that would be great.

I'm not well.

Katelyn Lehman: The FDA just approved a sound based device.

Meredith Oke: Oh, wonderful.

Katelyn Lehman: That ablates cancer tumors using sound waves for surgery.

Meredith Oke: Yeah, that's wonderful to hear because I've had several People on the podcast, brilliant people who are like, oh, I did experiments since as an undergrad and I was killing cancer cells with sound or light or whatever.

I'm like, what happened?

Like, I don't know.

No one was interested.

I moved on.

Katelyn Lehman: Yeah.

Meredith Oke: Yeah, I'm glad to hear that.

Katelyn Lehman: Yeah.

I mean we at Quantum Clinic, you know, sound ultras think of ultrasound, right, to, to create a visual image.

It's sound waves being passed through the body that then processes produ are able to produce an image of structures inside of the body.

That's how we look at babies in utero, right, Is through the application of non audible sound wave frequencies.

But, but the, the whole realm of audible sound actually is, is an, a very interesting area of study and, and one that we're involved in at Quantum Clinic.

I'm sorry, my cat is very excited about being here right now.

She's rubbing her face up on the computer.

Come here, sweetie.

Meredith Oke: Oh, we love a good cat visit.

Katelyn Lehman: Hey, so, so audible frequencies, right?

Sounds that support autonomic nervous system regulation integration.

Think of solfeggiotones or binaural beats, right?

These are, these are compositions of frequencies that support, you know, again, sort of an ordering effect within the body, right?

Because when you apply sound to let's say water, right.

Of which most of the body is comprised of water molecules, so you apply sound to water, it has an ordering effect, a structuring effect.

It creates resonant patterns or geometric shapes in the water itself.

And as that is is passing through the body and beyond being a relaxing experience which many people associate like a sound bath or a sound healing session with a state of relaxation, you know, what, what, what we're seeing is that it promotes again this quantum coherence.

It has a, it has a, an organizing effect on our physiology and our psychology in such a way that it allows for the, the flow of energy and information in the body in a way that's more fluid, that's less stagnant.

It can help move energetic blocks.

It can help open up parts of our experience that we hadn't previously felt or had access to.

And again, this is why in my opinion, it's so important that we involve the psychological sciences in this, you know, communication about this paradigm.

Because you know, if you think of, of, of the, the totality of the quantum system that, that we are perceiving and experiencing through, you know, our lives.

Right, well, well how is that then communicated to us?

Right?

Well, it's through sensation, image, feeling and thought.

Those are innately psychological factors.

There's no there's no feeling state in the, the brain doesn't feel, the brain doesn't see.

It's interpreting all of this information at the speed of light.

And we are subjectively experiencing that through our field of awareness.

Right.

So awareness then becomes the, the healing mechanism as our awareness expands or contracts because it will do both over the lifespan.

Right.

As it, as it continues to evolve and, and develop as we, as we go through life.

Well then you, you, you become more capable of seeing the world differently or perhaps others seeing the world more rigidly, you know, and, and so then it's, it, it's about this dynamic interplay between rigidity and flexib and flexibility and obviously flexibility and rigidity, both, neither are perfect balance.

You have to have boundaries on one hand and openness on the other.

But you know, how we navigate that then becomes the dance of life.

And what a beautiful dance it is.

Meredith Oke: Yes.

So talk to me about the concept of scalar waves and how they play into this because you have a device and this has come up a lot and I haven't talked about it on here, so I'd love for you to explain.

Katelyn Lehman: Yeah, so scalar waves are what's called non Hertzian waves.

And there's a significant debate in the scientific community.

Community as to what exactly is a scalar wave.

I actually wrote about this in a book that I wrote that's still unpublished, but maybe one day it will, it will come out.

And, and, and so it's, you know, people have different definitions for what is it.

But the properties of a scalar wave that make it unique is that, it's my understanding.

And again, I'm not a physicist.

I'm, my background is in clinical psychology.

So I, I will do, I will have this conversation to the best of my ability.

Meredith Oke: We are having, we are telling the story of the science.

Katelyn Lehman: Yes, yes, exactly.

We're not giving it, I'm not, I'm not saying I have all.

Meredith Oke: Okay, people.

Katelyn Lehman: But, but these waves don't behave like traditional waves in, in so much as they, when they, when they're moving through space and they, and they come up against physical matter, so say a human body or a wall or whatever, they're perceived to pass through it.

So they're omnipresent.

Right.

They're, they're, it's, it's everywhere.

It's almost like.

Okay, you know, and, and our kind of Newtonian physics, understanding classical, you know, classical laws of physics don't, doesn't really hold the complexity of that.

Like what, what do you mean?

Where, well, where does it.

So it's almost like you have to have a new, new framework in order to, to understand this, which is why I really am resonate with the, the concept or the idea that's been posited of, you know, the holographic principle that, you know, each atom contains everything, all of the information from the universe itself, right?

Like that, every, the smallest bit contains all, right?

And so if you think of the world in that way, well then maybe these scalar waves are merely just the communication between and among all of those points.

People may be familiar with the type of art called pointillism, right, where each, you stand far away from the painting and it looks like a beautiful landscape, right?

There's that famous one of the guy holding the umbrella, the couple walking through the park or something.

I forget who did it anyway, and then you come up to the painting and you see it's actually just a bunch of little dots, right?

So if you think of scalar energy as being this pluripotentiality, right, perhaps like the Vedic traditions or the Eastern philosophical traditions have talked about, you know, the universe is, is the yin and yang, the potential, right.

I, I like to think of scalar energy as, as the activation or the awareness of that pure potentiality that exists in every point in the field.

Right.

And that, that then would make sense why these waves don't stop at matter because matter is also just another point on, in the larger tapestry of existence.

Right?

So when, when we talk about, you know, what it, okay, what is.

So that's, that's more of an abstract philosophical conversation of what is scalar energy?

The ultimate, you know, response is well, we don't really know.

It sort of doesn't quite fit our traditional models of understanding.

But the best way that I know how to describe it is that it, that it's the activation of a, of some sort of latent potentiality that exists.

Right?

Okay.

And then there, there are technologies, emergent technologies coming on the market, and we have one of those, there are many which, which uses coils, hand wound copper coils that are configured in a particular geometric patterning.

There are three coils and inert noble gases in plasma tubes.

So that then when the device is turned on, purports to, again as I mentioned earlier, sort of have a structuring effect.

It activates the potentiality within the field generated in and around the technology itself and, and audible frequencies are passed through that, administered through headphones and a vibrating waterbed.

And the feedback that we get from clients is that it's very supportive of any kind of autonomic dysregulation.

So any anxiety, stress, emotional overwhelm.

We get a lot of people who deal with chronic inflammatory diseases like fibromyalgia or there are lots of them these days, people dealing with comorbidities around pain, pain in the body, and just kind of fog, Right.

Mental fog, and that they have this experience which lasts for about 45 minutes.

They're exposed to these sound frequencies in the body and through the ears, and they're in this field, this structured field, and it, and it brings the potentiality, the electric, the electromagnetic current in the body up to its fullest potential.

Right.

So it's like it wakes things up, so to speak.

And again, kind of tying it into the realm of like, what is this quantum world we're talking about?

Well, it's the realm of sensation, image, feeling or thought.

And so as people are having this experience of laying on the bed and being.

Being supported by a clinician who, who orients them to the space and encourages them to set an intention for their healing.

You know, we, we are very.

At quantum clinic, we're attuned to the relational and human qualities of healing.

Very much so.

So that's an important part of this.

Right.

And, and that often then that process of connecting to one's intention or whatever will evoke a particular type of journey.

Right.

While you're receiving these frequencies, some people go to the distant past, rate of their souls, previous incarnations.

Some people stay very much in the body.

Some people drift into a state of sort of kind of sleep.

Right.

It really depends on, you know, what's coming up for the person or the individual.

But what we've noticed is that people then, when they exit that service tend to feel much more embodied, present, connected, grounded, less pain, less inflammation.

And.

Yeah, that.

I think, we think that's a net positive for humanity right now.

Meredith Oke: Yes, definitely.

And I, yeah, I love these, these technologies that are acknowledging this other layer to existence that our traditional understanding doesn't fully teach us, is there?

Yeah, because we're so, we're opening to the healing, but we're also opening to seeing the world this way, which will remain as part of your life experience even after you've left the session, I would imagine.

Katelyn Lehman: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Meredith Oke: I was talking to someone, they.

And they told me a story about one of these like, scalar devices.

And the person was having like an energy reading done of their home by an intuitive.

And so the, the intuitive was like reading the energy of the house to see I, whatever, we, whatever you would do that for.

And yeah, she was like, oh, there's, there's something, there's the frequency is much higher like in this area, like in this closet or there's something that's very much higher.

And they were like, oh, that's where we have our scalar machine.

That's where we have our scalar device turned on because they had it like next to their WI fi router or something.

They put the scalar there to balance it out.

And that was the, I heard that story.

I'm like, oh, okay.

I'm curious about this now.

Katelyn Lehman: Yeah.

Meredith Oke: How I mean it's just like a whole universe happening that like right next to us and it's just crazy to think about.

Katelyn Lehman: Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you know, when we're, when we're talking about, you know, intuitive energy reading, you know, not non local awareness, all of these things, you know, the quantum realm really does, at least in part, it's my belief provider, the basis for those experiences.

Right.

Like I, I, I, you know, it's funny, I hesitate to talk too much about it because again, like we live in a, in a very complex time in human history and I think that, that women in particular, but also men who have practiced indigenous ways of knowing and, and this kind of deeper unified field which we are all a part of, right.

We're a node in the larger infinite field of energy and information.

And, and if we accept that consciousness is the floor or the, the ground of existence, if you will, which expresses itself through biological adaptations and geological processes and all of these things, well then at least hypothetically it is possible to know things in ways that are not limited by our present time space continuum.

Right.

That there is a way in which we can access that deeper intelligence, that deeper knowing.

And that example you shared of your friend or whomever, you know, having an intuitive do an energy reading and whoa, lo and behold, like they actually said there is a closet over there that like is pinging my sensors, right.

That, that, that it's becoming, it's becoming more and more difficult to dismiss those because of the preponderance of evidence that those things are.

Well, yeah, there's like this thing here that I'm, that I'm running right now.

Like yeah, of course there would, you would notice that.

Like so, and, and you know, remote healings, distance healings, telepathic communication between hearts and souls.

These, these are all things that, that would get you burned at the stake for heresy at many times throughout human history.

And so I think, you know, Rightfully so many women, especially those of us, you know, out here doing the good work.

Right.

Like, are hesitant to.

To speak about in greater depth or.

Or outside of circles that feel really, really safe to do so.

Right.

Because it does at times border on the miraculous, but it's also becoming more.

More cultural, culturally accepted.

Right.

Like the Autism Files or the.

Did you hear.

Did you watch that podcast or.

Meredith Oke: Oh, the Telepathy tapes.

Katelyn Lehman: Thank you.

Yes, the Telepathy tapes.

You know, they're primarily interviewing people on the, on the spectrum.

And, and so, you know, that's like, again, as we're, as we're moving forward as a collective, as a species, I do think this moment in time calls for, you know, sort of an acknowledgement and a recognition of ancient truths to be re remembered by those of us who are here now, and that we should be courageous in communicating about those experiences.

Within reason.

Meredith Oke: Yes.

Because I'm glad you brought the Telepathy tapes up because, I mean, it was a profoundly beautiful piece of art that she made with that podcast.

But what really landed for me was how popular it was.

I think for a couple of weeks it was the number one podcast in the United States, if not more places, which is like tens of millions of downloads.

Katelyn Lehman: Well, so.

Meredith Oke: And I.

What you're saying is like, we're.

Yeah, it be.

It was above Joe Rogan for a while there.

So it's like we're so timid to.

Katelyn Lehman: Say it, but everybody wants to hear it.

Yeah, yeah, but.

Because even Joe Rogan, like, I mean, you know, who's.

He's the number one.

Right.

Like, he talks about that stuff.

Meredith Oke: Yeah.

And then he had her on his podcast, the.

The producer, which I thought was lovely.

Katelyn Lehman: Yeah.

Meredith Oke: Yes.

And those are the moments because, yeah, I do.

I do think there is that current of fear.

I do, you know, and I see it.

You know, I had a lovely scientist on here who.

He's like an astrophysicist who got really involved in his retirement, looking at infrared light and how it impacts.

Katelyn Lehman: Our bodies.

Meredith Oke: And how it goes through our bodies.

And it's like such cool.

He's doing such cool research, like, just at home because he's retired.

And at the end, I was like, just very gently, like, oh, has this research sort of changed your view of the world or the universe?

And he was like, oh, I don't know what you're talking about.

Of course not.

This is science.

I was like, okay, okay, okay.

So, yeah, so it's sort of like, I do think for men, especially in a certain field, there they are also very protective of their reputations and don't want to be associated with the woo woo stuff.

Katelyn Lehman: Yeah, yeah.

Meredith Oke: But then, yeah, I've been finding more and more it's like when you, you, you put it out there and it lands like with people where I never would have expected it to land.

Katelyn Lehman: Yeah, yeah.

Well, I'm going to say one more thing about, about this paradigm because, and, and specifically as, as it interacts with gendered norms, personality types and psychopathology, right?

Because, just because we now have the language to back up intuitive understanding, alternate modes of knowing with science, right?

As science is described in a very narrow frame of understanding, again.

Right.

That doesn't mean that those things were not true or throughout human history.

It just means that we now have the language to validate it.

Right.

But men, I'm gonna say it, men have been systematically invalidating these experiences which are traditionally conceived of and, and known more by women, right.

That, that they have systematically undercut and invalidated, invalidated those modes of knowing.

And that still happens today.

Right.

Just because someone is a notable figure in a particular scientific discipline does not mean that they're also not enacting profoundly narcissistic, ego driven, selfish, you know, self protective defense mechanisms, right.

As a way to, to, to, you know, compensate for adversity they perhaps experienced in childhood.

And that those, those patterns of harm that exist in the interpersonal worlds, right?

The relationships that, that evolve between peoples, right.

Like none of this quantum biology stuff changes that.

Right.

The harm that's perpetuated the, the pathology that's enacted right over millennia is still operating in the present.

Just because somebody studies this area doesn't make them capable of, of empathy.

And that's a harsh reality that we have to face, you know, especially as women in our world.

Meredith Oke: Yes.

And I, I appreciate you articulating that because that is, does happen and is happening.

And it's really disconcerting for those of us who see it from the perspective that we're talking about because you have people using the same language and it's like, you know, I was talking to someone and she's like, how can so and so and so and so be talking about the quantum field, be talking about biophysics and quantum, quantum biology and not understand that they're part of their behavior is affecting their words, the way they treat people.

Katelyn Lehman: Yep.

Meredith Oke: And it doesn't, it's like exactly what you just described is happening.

Katelyn Lehman: Right.

And that's been happening for millennia.

Right.

People usurping spiritual language and now they're usurping the, the, the language du jour, right, which is this unified field and, and love and light and all of that stuff there.

It's a, it's a form of, you know, misappropriation of spiritual teachings for, for their own self interest and to assert dominance and power and control in interpersonal relationships.

Right.

So that, that is, is still, I would argue, like a much more critical imperative for us to address collectively.

And again, it's all, it's all happening simultaneously.

But you know, people, people are people and we all have these incredibly self destructive and malicious and, and base kind of instincts within us.

And ultimately where, where, where it lands for me is falling back on kind of traditional Buddhist principles of, of, you know, not doing harm.

Right?

How, how do I take these teachings and apply them in my own life and in such a way that I am not contributing to greater harm?

And when I am confronted by adversity or, you know, whatever the case may be, okay, am I a courageous and competent adult who is capable of showing up in ways that is respectful, that is reciprocal, and that is grounded in the creation of a shared understanding of reality?

Because as we move away from having a rigid, you know, finite, concrete understanding of reality towards a more pluralistic or, you know, multiple realities can coexist, then it becomes about our ability to navigate that, to negotiate that, to have the dialogue, that.

That creates a foundation for a shared consensus.

Right.

That's, you know, that's, I think, why we're in such a mess geopolitically and culturally right now.

Why so strong men are taking power across the globe?

Because people are like, what is this?

They don't know what to do with all of this.

The polarity, the splitting, the perceptual fragments that are manifesting on the larger scale.

So I'm not sure that I did justice to that talking point, but I think it's an important one to continue to explore as we, as we grow together, you know?

Meredith Oke: Yeah, absolutely.

And I love that you brought it up.

And you know, for me it's like remembering it starts with it within me.

100 and I can talk about quantum entanglement.

It's like, what am I contributing to that field?

And if we all, you know, we all started there.

Yeah.

Caitlin, this has been so delightful.

Please let us know where people can find you.

Katelyn Lehman: Sure, yeah.

Meredith Oke: Continue there.

Katelyn Lehman: Yeah, yeah.

Meredith Oke: Their journey.

Katelyn Lehman: Check it out.

So you can find me on Instagram @Doctor Caitlin Layman or Facebook or, you know, anywhere, anywhere you find your people.

And you can check out quantumclinic.com and I'll send you a link to my online course that maybe you can include in the show notes.

Meredith Oke: Sure, I would love to.

So, yeah, that's Dr.

Caitlin and it's Caitlin.

K A T E L Y N Lehman L E H M A N this was delightful.

And we will have to do it again sometime.

Katelyn Lehman: Wonderful.

Thanks so much, Meredith.