Hello, and welcome to another episode of Inside the Recording Studio.

>> Hello, Jody.

I am Jody Whitesides and with me as always is Mr.

Chris Hellstrom.

How are you today, Chris?

Sorry, sorry to make you stressed out.

I'm still a little anxious from that story you just told before we started taping.

Well you know it didn't happen to me so but still that was stressful.

I was Do I still have hair in my head?

like yeah right it's quickly trying to escape.

No that was rough that was rough Yeah, it kind of segues into the whole concept of today's episode, So it kind of does actually, doesn't it?

Yeah.

I really didn't plan that.

That works out rather well.

Which is the psychology of talking to an artist and/or client.

It very much so.

So yeah, so we were talking about the psychology and I guess more importantly or more accurately It does.

of how to behave and treat artists and clients when we're working with them.

You know, sometimes we to be a psychologist, right?

So what does that mean to you?

Yeah, well, maybe you need I didn't take many psychology classes at university.

I feel so unfulfilled now.

(laughs) to speak to a psychologist about that.

When we say that, why do we have to be a psychologist, Right?

Artists and clients tend to have fragile egos.

What's your opinion on this subject?

Okay.

And I say tend, it doesn't mean that everybody does, Okay.

but there's a lot of them out there that have very, very fragile egos.

taking a more emotional intelligence type approach, which I would assume kind of goes hand in hand with being a psychologist, is a better way to coax a good performance out of an artist.

And it's a good way to keep the lines of communication open with a client.

Is that a good way of saying it?

- Yeah, I would agree with that.

[silence] I think it's, when we're working with an artist, we want them to be as good as they can.

And it can be during recording especially, but a little bit less during mixing, but we now are responsible for their product in the end.

And as you mentioned, creatives can be a little bit insecure perhaps in their abilities, in their stuff, >> port overly secure.

[laughs] or really secure.

Yeah, that's the other part.

You might have to adopt a different personality [silence] while you're working with those people.

But we want to just make people at ease.

Unless they've worked with you before, they don't really know what they're walking into as well.

They might not know you on a personal level, so you want to make them comfortable and trust you and all this kind of stuff.

It's really for the benefit of the whole thing, to put somebody at ease and let them trust you.

discredited it's very hard to remember in your statement.

You might actually be in that Well, you mentioned during the recording and tracking is how I would denote that during situation.

Yeah.

Encouragement?

the tracking process.

The initial thing really is to get the best performance that you can out of an artist.

And some artists are going to require real gentle coaxing.

Others encouragement and like, oh, that was really great, even though it wasn't.

And you don't tell them that it wasn't.

You just say, hey, you know, that particular part was really good.

Maybe we can do another take where you marry that was something even better on the back end of something else kind of thing.

Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

So you try to keep that positive attitude and look for the little moments where it's like, yes, you nailed this.

Now let's get that onto this part over here kind of thing, especially when you have to start dealing with a lot of overdubs.

(softly laughing) That's with the artists that require that gentle encouragement and such.

There are other artists where they understand that it's a business and they're there to do a job.

job's not done right.

All you have to do is say, do it again, fucker.

Well, you might not have to say it that way, but they'll understand and they'll be like, all right, we'll just run another take.

Where do you fall on that situation in terms of like, if you were recording for someone else, are you the one that needs the gentle coaxing or do you like, all right, do it again.

No, I think if I'm the artist, I would rather have somebody say, "Dude, your timing was off [LAUGHTER] and that bent note right there was shit, so do it again." But I'm probably so aware of my playing Uh-huh, Mike.

and things that I would probably notice that anyway, so it wouldn't come as big crush.

I was like, "Oh my God, really?" For me, I would rather deal with somebody who's sort of honest.

They don't have to be an asshole about it.

No, that was a little bit off.

I'd like you to do it [ vs kitchens employees] again or even if they think that, oh, that part does not work, come up with something else.

All right, cool.

I'd rather hear that.

But from my personality, if I'm on the other side of the glass, so to speak, I probably tend to go the little bit more gentler route by nature, because I know that people can be perhaps a little hesitant when they're going in and you don't want to...

Intimidated, easily bruised ego.

Yeah.

And yeah, even if it's not an ego thing, it's like, let's say that it's somebody who's they're not used to being in the studio or recording or tracking whatever happens to be, right?

The first thing you probably don't want to say to them is, "Dude, what are you doing?

Wet behind the ears.

That fucking sucked.

Come on, do it again." Probably better off going, but you know, [LAUGHTER] "Well, you know what?

Okay, cool.

We got some good sounds going on here.

Let's try to focus a little bit more on the timing or whatever you have to do to kind of rectify the situation." but I don't think anybody, nobody gets better when you just yell at them, you know?

Especially if they can't deliver better, you know?

What are you going to do?

But what about you?

But when you're, you know, let's say that you're tracking vocals for somebody, or you're the artist, how do you prefer to get treated?

All right?

But has it always been that Right.

Tell me straight up.

Yeah, I don't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

way for you?

Yeah?

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

I understand where I'm coming from in terms of a performance and I might be more likely to say, no, we need to do it again.

Then they might kind of thing.

If that makes any sense.

Like you're saying you're very aware of your guitar playing and whatnot.

Yeah.

I'm the same way with the vocal, same way with the bass, same way with drums, keyboards, guitar, whatever instrument I'm playing.

I'm going to be acutely aware of whether or not my performance is nailing it.

As a matter of fact, I was producing a track last night as a alternate version Okay.

Right.

So, we're going to do a little bit of a math here.

So, we're going to do to a track that I did last week for the same artist for the same song.

And they felt like they had miscommunicated to me about the direction.

Okay.

Right.

And the original direction that I went was much more funk based because all the examples they gave me were all funk based.

Right?

[pause] And they're like, no, no, no, no.

I meant to go more R&B with this.

Yeah.

and it's like, well, funny, you should say that.

Let's do it again.

So I did it again.

And in the middle of doing some of the piano parts, I realized that I played it better in one section than I did in another.

And so I redid that section a few more times until I got a better feel on it.

So I understand it from my own standpoint of like, I can tell myself as the asshole, that sucked, do it again.

Now I can't say that to another artist Yeah.

Yeah, you said something there or I can't say that to a client, but I much prefer the straight up, don't dilly dally around the bush, don't sugar coat it for me, just tell me that the performance lacked for whatever reason.

And then give me the direction that it needs to go.

If it doesn't go in the direction that it needs to go, I need to know what direction it does need to go.

That's it.

Yes.

and you kind of glossed over it, Yeah, you have to have a vision on that.

but I think it's really important where you said you'd rather have somebody be upfront, say, no, this is, we need to do it again.

But then if they feel that strongly about it, point me in a direction where you felt that it lacked.

So don't just go, oh, that was horrible.

Okay, well, what didn't you like about it?

Right.

As the producer, as the recording engineer, or as the person guiding the artist or the [BLANK_AUDIO] client, you have to have that vision and you have to be willing to compromise on that vision unless they've given you the vision and you're just keeping them on Yeah.

the direction of that vision is a good way of saying it.

For me, I'm much more of [BLANK_AUDIO] the, I'm okay with a taskmaster attitude because to me it's a task.

Some artists Yeah.

But maybe that is, maybe that's an experience thing, and then, and clients that doesn't work.

You can't be the taskmaster.

Right.

thing as well, you know, once you've kind of done it a few times, you, you know, kind of like, well, this is where the bar is for good, right?

And if we're not above that bar, you need to do it again, right?

Yes.

But saying that, that's a very subjective thing that there's this bar of good.

Okay.

So whose bar do you use?

And that's like, that's a communication thing where you have to figure that thing out with the artist of the client right up front is to like, who is the quote unquote leader.

And if I go with a movie example, which is really going to be out there in left field, I'm going to quote from the movie vertical limit.

And there's a scene where a very, [ Pause ] very experienced climber whose wife has died at the hands of the inexperience of another climber who is a billionaire, who is saying to this guy who's throwing this party at the top of, well, not quite the top of Everest, but at the base camp of Everest.

And he's asking him straight up, who plays God, so to speak, on the mountain?

And this inexperienced billionaire climber tells him that it's his head climber.

And he's like, okay.

Yeah.

And of course, the reality when they get up on the mountain is that the head climber for this group with the billionaire isn't the head guy.

It's the billionaire and he makes really awful decisions up there.

something that has to be defined the same way in a recording studio.

Right.

Good.

Good.

Good.

Good.

The first example I was thinking about, I'm going to steer back to another example in the musical realm here.

Right.

And we talk about Mott Lang here, when he was getting ready to start with Def Leppard's "Histeria," they had had those discussions like, "Well, what's the goal with this album?

What are we going to set the bar as?" And he had posed the question of, "Well, why can't a rock band be like Michael Jackson Sure.

I'm going to do a little bit of a quick look at the and have seven hit singles off an album?" picture.

I'm going to do a little bit of a And they supposedly were standing around, "Well, I don't know why they can't that." quick look at the picture.

I'm going to do a little bit of a So he said, "Okay, well, that's the bar.

quick look at the picture.

We're going to have seven hit singles on this album.

I'm going to do a little bit of a So now that's an extreme level to set for yourself.

quick look at the picture.

I'm going to do a little bit of a But just looking at that when you go into a project, I think if you push people enough quick look at the picture.

I'm going to do a little bit of a quick look at the picture.

in artists that they will have a sort of vision, not necessarily a commercial bar that they want I'm going to do a little bit of a quick look at the picture.

to set or meet, but more of an artistic thing.

I'm going to do a little bit of a quick look at the picture.

So let's say that artist that you were just working with and they wanted more of an R&B thing, Yes, it is.

but let's say they come in and they go, "Okay, well, we want this to be on par with like the last Bruno Mars album." That's a pretty high bar, you know?

But if that's what they're going for, you have to strive toward that.

Yes, it is.

Right, so in a sense, there's the taskmaster And that's the bar and you have to be honest, like, "No, look, if this is what you want, that bassline that you play, that's not going to be solid enough, you know?

So let's keep pushing." So yeah.

who's the asshole and there's the taskmaster who is the gentle encourager, is kind of how it comes across.

Yeah, well, people's mood change from day to day as well, right?

And then there's varying degrees in between.

And as the recording engineer or the producer, you have to know that difference because not everybody's going to react the same way.

And even within multiple sessions of working with an artist or client, things can change and you have to be prepared.

Yeah.

So let's say somebody comes in and they've had a fight with their boyfriend the night Uh huh.

before or whatever.

That person's not going to be in the same headspace as last week, perhaps.

You need to find a balance again.

And I heard stories about Bob Ezrin produced like Alice Cooper and Kiss and this kind of stuff, Pink Floyd, where he would have a whistle around his neck when he was in the studio.

And that's like, now it's serious time.

Okay, I'm blowing the whistle.

it's time to work, you know.

Yeah, exactly.

The okay, A's put down the beer, we're going to work, the ref right there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And while it's difficult, it's a good idea and it's type of thing, right?

So, or, you know, stories about Phil Spector pulling guns on people.

So, so maybe find some balance, maybe not to those extremes, but yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

not always 100% of the time realistic, but keep as positive a vibe as you can.

That way you can make it comfortable for the artists and they can throw and bounce ideas off you Yeah, sometimes it's just work and it's hard and you're pushing, but sometimes that's when if that's part of the game plan.

And it's kind of like that fine line between being the taskmaster and getting shit done and having fun in the studio because it's not always going to be fun.

The magic.

good stuff comes out, right?

But if you don't have that positive vibe in there and keeping encouraging people to do Exactly.

You know, you're less likely to get those great results.

Hey, bringing up Muth Lang again, I remember somebody saying how he would work and how he would sort of bring things out of you that you didn't think that you could do.

Absolutely.

Mm.

Mm.

Sure.

Right?

What he was like, "Okay, I need you to sing this high note.

I need you to hit that." And you go, "Oh, I can't do that.

Just go ahead and try.

You can do it." You know, encouraging.

And the person would hit that note.

And then see, I told you, you could do it, cool.

Now do that three or four more times, right?

So it's like now you're making a person stack harmonies Okay.

Oh.

that they didn't think that they could even hit, right?

Sure.

Well, right.

So it's that kind of encouraging thing.

But from what I understand, he could also be a fair bit of a taskmaster, but hard to argue with the results, right?

[silence] And with that, we'll take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.

And we're back.

We're going to start applying this concept of the psychology of talking to an artist and client when it's more directed at the mixing stage of creating music.

Music.

So what are we doing here, Chris?

What if they're behind you?

Well, the interaction now is a little bit less direct in the sense that you may not be in the same room all the time.

I can only speak for myself but when I'm mixing I don't like to have somebody sitting next to me unless it's like a mix of proof.

Same [LAUGHTER] thing, oddly enough.

Yeah I like to do that because I don't like to have why [LAUGHTER] Mm-hmm.

you're doing that?

Can we do this?

Can we try that?

Just let me do my job and Mm-hmm.

um there'll be time for you to critique it and tell me what you don't like about it.

Mm-hmm.

It's a little bit less likely perhaps that you'll be sitting in the same room.

Mm-hmm.

[ Pause ] what you do in this process.

However, it's your mix, but it's the artist's product.

Well, it was cleared up when they apologized for So you still have to make sure that you listen to the artist and the feedback that they give you.

Hopefully you've had that line of communication going on with the vision of the project, so that you know what you're kind of shooting for.

Like you brought up here, you brought a track into a funk realm when they wanted an R&B thing.

thing, perhaps that something that could have been cleared up initially.

Yeah, and then you just move on from there, right?

miscommunicating the direction that they really wanted.

Yeah.

And then that's fine.

You know, that's not.

So there you go.

And it was fine.

It was just a matter of like, well, you gave me, I didn't like write back and say, well, you gave me all these folk examples.

I just said, okay.

And I went off in the new direction.

I'm waiting to hear back about it 'cause I just turned it in this morning, but.

Which means give him a lot of the 420 and a bunch of alcohol.

But that communication needs to happen as well.

And you need to be able to at least in my opinion, to keep the client or the artist at ease when you're doing this mixing for them, right?

So definitely, well, you approved it last night, you know.

No, in all seriousness, you know, you want to make sure that you listen to their feedback if they have it.

Don't [BLANK_AUDIO] assume that look, I'm the mix engineer, just trust me, it's fine.

When they go, Oh, the you know, I think the guitars a little bit too loud.

No, I don't hear it that way.

No, this is [LAUGH] fine.

You know, it's, it's their mix.

Turn down the damn guitar, you know, and just be or turn them up whatever happens to be Or turn them up, yeah.

right.

So You know what, kind of coinciding with what you're just saying and uh huh.

what you said a little earlier about not wanting somebody sitting next to you or rather in the same room as you as you're trying to mix.

Mm-hmm.

I do know a very, very prominent mix and mastering engineer Okay, interesting.

who has different levels of fees based on how the work is going to occur.

Interesting.

If you leave him alone and just let him do his thing, it's one fee.

If you want to sit in the room, it's an additional fee.

And it's substantially more.

Well, but.

And it's the same thing as like, "Oh, if you don't really like this judgment call, Yeah.

Yeah.

I will do this change for you, but it will cost this.

So he monetizes every aspect of what he's doing, but he can't argue with the level of work that he's done and the resume list that he has, 'cause it's fucking ridiculous, you know?

But it's just interesting, 'cause I did ask to sit in Yeah, and that's pretty clever.

and I did ask to do certain things.

He's like, well, you know, I'm giving you this bro price for this, but if you wanna do that, then it's gonna go up to this.

And so it was like all these different fee structures based on certain things that he was mentioning that I was asking for.

It is.

I mean, that's a good business idea, though, to keep those in your mind when you're quoting Right, so it allows him to be accommodating, somebody to do a certain job.

but it also allows him to make more money based on how accommodating he has to get.

Yeah.

No, it's not an ego thing.

And I'm sure that's not necessarily even based on although it sounds like an ego thing.

I don't think it's that at all.

I think it's just that the mixing process takes a lot longer for him to do because he, Exactly.

That was the reasoning he gave.

Mm hmm.

I'm guessing, has to stop and answer to all these questions, right?

So what?

Yeah.

So why are you low cutting the bass guitar?

Well, I'm doing it because this is okay.

Why are you adding 8K on the bass guitar?

You know, all those things.

Please listen to the stereo mix, you know, but how do you deal with that though?

The preference is to do it solo, to let the mix happen and to give it to the artist or I mean, do you like have having people there when you mix or do you prefer to be by yourself?

Would you care?

Yeah Sure the client and say, is there anything you need changed?

If there's something that needs to be changed, I'm happy to do it because recall these days is extremely simple.

If it gets extra in easily ridiculous in the amount of changes fees, I kind of operate Yeah.

Yeah, and I usually treat it in the way that I will, when I'm quoting the price for a mix, similar to that guy.

And I've never really had anybody wanting to sit in while mixing, but if they did, I would adopt that fee structure that this other much more prominent mix engineer that I'm mentioning would be.

I would do the same thing.

I will give the client the information I look with this mix, you're getting this, this, Mm-hmm.

and this, and you get X amount of revisions.

Now if the amount of revisions in like mix revision one, I don't care.

The more that you have, I'll be more than happy to accommodate, but I will give you X amount of revisions.

And if you want to go beyond that point, then there will be more money.

More money.

Yeah.

can very easily get out of hand, you know, where these days I value my time.

So it's not, Right.

You don't say.

yeah, and I had to learn how to do that.

Sometimes clients just, it seems that it can be like, eSports.

Hmm.

you're just sitting there waiting for their feedback, right?

And it takes no amount of time for you to do the revisions that they expect.

It's like, what's the worst thing that you can generally do, right?

Somebody to give them two options, right?

Well, do you want the Yeah.

bass up by 2 dB or do you want it up by 1?

And what do you always get?

Well, split the difference.

Do it one and a half, right?

And okay, well, give it to me with two, all right?

No, that was too much.

Give it to me with one and a half now.

Okay, well, it seems like it's just a minuscule amount of work, which it can be, but this is just an example I'm bringing up, right?

But you can do revision after revision and at some point they just have to make Well, and it sounds like that psychology of how they're treating you is starting to frustrate up their mind or it's going to start costing them more money.

So yes and that's it could be that, you and you're not keeping them at ease.

it could be on my end but at this point I'd like to think that I can treat the artist with respect.

Uh-huh.

I would never sort of like disrespect the artists or, you know, telling funny stories here, but I would never go out and really name somebody and go, "Oh, this dick was an asshole.

I'll never work with him again.

He couldn't play for shit." Right?

That's just not cool.

And if you do that, you're probably not very likely to get another job, right?

If you have a habit of doing that.

Treating people with respect, but that also means that I demand respect from them, from a client.

And Do you have like a written decree that says you must sign this paper and I demand the And absolutely not.

respect that this paper gives me?

No, I like to think that respect is earned.

Huh?

Right.

So don't be that person that treats other people that way in the studio, right?

It also means that you have to stand up for yourself if somebody is just generally being abusive, right?

So if, whether that's verbally or just not being professional enough.

And we've talked about that in the past.

I think it's like there's, life's too short to deal with people.

A lot of times that just frustrate you or just make you upset and make your life miserable.

So, you know, how do you think about it?

Yeah, exactly.

Yep.

And that goes for you as if you're the engineer or producer as well, right?

Don't be a jerk to these people, You say, here's your files.

but don't take any crap either.

So how do you deal with that?

Like if you're in that situation where you find that it feels like the artist is starting to take advantage of you basically.

Yeah.

You can go somewhere else.

Yeah, well, I have done that.

Sure.

It's not the most ideal of situation.

That's when it's really come to a head there's your butting heads and it's not working extremely well.

But it doesn't happen a lot, but it can happen.

Reality is I really like to do my best on everything that I can.

So I'm generally pretty good at saying no upfront.

Yeah.

And I've learned to spend a lot of time actually not necessarily Yeah.

conducting an interview, but having a good lengthy chat with the artist or client up Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

front to let them know expectations and that sort of thing.

And that's a psychological thing.

I'm trying to get a suss out feel for how they operate.

So I can learn to say no to the job prior to even taking it on.

If it's going to appear to be a pain in the ass, always do your best when you've taken on the job.

Yeah.

That's the way I will say that.

And there's only been like maybe two or three times where I've literally just said, here's your files.

You can go somewhere else.

It's just like, I can't deal.

And then you can be respectful with that as well, right?

- Mm-hmm.

Because I would probably say something to the effect that, look, I don't think I'm going Right, and with saying that, to be able to deliver what you expect for this project.

I might not be the guy for you.

So wish you all the best.

Here's what we did so far.

It's a lot tougher thing.

Yeah.

I'm kind of trying to differentiate the fact that it's not just you playing psychologist to your artist or client, it's a two-way street.

Yeah.

You have to play psychologist to yourself Yeah.

to make sure that you're taking care of yourself Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a trust issue there, right?

And in terms of the situation.

It's really rough when they accuse you of doing things that you haven't done.

And you have to kind of take it in stride, but you also have to show them whether or not you did that.

'Cause if you did do it, fess up to it, you know, and don't do it again.

But if you didn't do it, you have to find a reasonable way of stepping aside of it and saying, no, I didn't.

But not being a dick about saying that you didn't do it.

Yeah.

trust is very, very difficult to get back.

If you have lost it for whatever reason, imagined or Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

otherwise, right, it means that you're probably unlikely to finish this project in a positive Yeah.

Mm hmm.

manner.

And everybody is going to be exactly these psychological things, I think go both ways.

It's And that doesn't do anybody any good.

not just somebody sitting in the in the engineering chair.

It's also the artist.

So this goes for Well, you can say the same about Steve Lomat as well.

or when we're going in and we're artists, just be a cool person.

I was really impressed with when we talked to Christopher Alice, just the legwork that he does before he takes on a project.

I thought that was really, really inspiring, to be honest with you.

Of course.

I mean, he does ridiculous amount of research and I'd be willing to bet that the same holds Exactly, yeah.

true for our next guest coming next week.

So.

All of them were everybody that we've had on as guests, I'm sure we'll have in the future as well, is really professional people have something to add.

I have a find that is not necessarily a product And with that, we're going to move on to our Friday finds, Chris, what have you got for us today?

or a piece of music, but I stumbled upon something down the YouTube rabbit hole Hello.

where I saw a video of a clinic that Tom Lord Algae was doing through Abbey Road that I thought was really, really cool.

Do you see everybody?

His way of working is fairly similar to his brother, Chris, and their judicious use of both compression and EQ and they're not afraid of using either one of them.

But he had a few things that I thought were really, really exciting just the way his work and his attitude just is really, really contagious.

Right.

Right on.

I'm going to drop a little bit of a Here's a guy that obviously loves what he does, right?

And he's super happy to do it.

And I recommend that for anybody.

It's just, you know, available.

It's not beyond a paywall or anything like that.

It's just do search for Tom Lordiology and Abbey Road.

I thought it was really inspiring.

So that has to be my Friday find for this week.

And what about you, Mr.

Whitesides?

Oof.

plug in bomb on you right now, because between now and the end Oof, I like it.

of this month, or roughly about Thanksgiving ish time.

If you're listening to this, well past the production date of 2021.

I'm sorry, but Reason has teamed up with waves to give away the berserk distortion plugin.

Yes, I figured you would I'm Swedish too, so, you know.

just because of your pension for lots of distortions of various kinds.

So.

Because Swedish equals distortion anyway.

Well, I'm at the reason.

Right.

Reason and waves have teamed up and they're giving away the Berserk Distortion plugin right now for free.

All you have to do is give Reason your email address.

Anyway, I'm...

And there you have it.

You get a plugin for free that you can then go mangle stuff with.

Nice.

So that's my Friday fine for this week.

Sounds good.

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Doing so gets you weekly reminders about the Tuesday tips when they come out and we'll make sure that you don't miss any future episodes.

Even better is when we hold a giveaway.

If you're on our email list, you're automatically entered to possibly win [ Pause ] whatever it is we're giving away.

If you send us an email at goldstar@insidetherecordingstudio.com Talk to you later, Jody.

have a good one.

with the word psychology, you'll get something cool back in your inbox.

If you have a topic of suggestion for us to explain in a future episode, contact us at the contact page, hint hint, and we'll put it into consideration for a future episode.

And with that, I'll say, see you next week.

>>>z