What did he tell you and why did they need you to come to Moscow right away?

So it was December nineteenth.

I get a text from James Fry, the Moscow Police chief, and said, sure, I'll be there.

So December twentieth, I show up at the Moscow Police Department lobby.

James Fry's there to greet me.

He walks me upstairs, opens the door, and there's the room of their entire investigative team.

Gosh, you know what, I'm getting chills just hearing this.

And that person is Brian Coburger and the name rung a Bell with me, which was part of a PhD program at Washington State University.

And so I let the investigators know.

I said, hey, I think I've talked to Brian Coberger before, so they're very interested in getting that information.

So what role did you take on after that?

The hair on the back of my neck.

It was a chilling moment.

On the day Moscow police identified Brian Coburger's DNA on the knife sheath that he left behind in that horrible kill house on the campus of Idaho University, our guest today received probably the most important phone call of his life.

They needed him there in Moscow because he knew things that nobody else did at that time.

This is going to be one hell of an episode of one degree of scandalis right here on Tom's Zenner Scandal.

I'm Tom's enter Kato k train Klin right here.

Yeah, okay, So let's get into a Cato Gary Jenkins Chief, Gary Jenkins, longtime law enforcement, almost fifty years of decorated service.

Thank you for your service, Gary.

And what makes our guest Cato stand out is the fact that he was the chief of police in Pullman, Washington, and then he was the chief of police at Washington State University, where Brian Coberger interned or tried to get an internship.

He interviewed with Gary.

We're going to talk about that as this show progresses.

But Gary, welcome.

Let me get right into this Gary, and let's go to that date because the suspense is off the charts.

This is less than a month after the murders.

You get a phone call from the Moscow chief of police, who I'm assuming you know.

You know, it's two smaller communities out there, so you had to have known him.

What did he tell you and why did they need you to come to Moscow?

Right away.

So it was December nineteenth.

I get a text from James Fry, the Moscow Police chief, says, hey, can you meet at the Moscow Police Department tomorrow morning?

And I assumed it was just going to be another law enforcement briefing.

They had done a couple of those previously.

So I replied and said sure, I'll be there, and he gave me time to show up.

So December twentieth, I show up at the Moscow Police Department lobby.

James Fry is there to greet me.

I'm the only law enforcement person there, so that was a little bit unusual.

I thought there were going to be other law enforcement partners from the region there for a briefing.

So he walks me upstairs, opens the door, and there's the room of their entire investigative team.

There were probably thirty to forty people in that room, and I knew right away there was something significant happening.

Probably had something to do with Washington State University, since I was a chief at WSU.

So they sent me down and they say, we have identified a potential suspect in this case, and that suspect is a PhD student at Washington State University who lives in on campus housing and that person is Brian Coburger and the name rung a bell with me right away.

I didn't make a connection immediately, but it took me a few seconds, and then I recalled that when I was chief at the Pullman Police Department, I had interviewed Brian Coberger for an internship.

This was back in April, back when I was chief w or at Pullman Police Department, and he was one of four applicants for an internship position at Pullman which was part of a PhD program at Washington State University.

And so I let the investigators know.

I said, Hey, I think I've talked to Brian Coberger before and told them the circumstances.

I said, I have his resume and I have his cover letter.

They didn't know that at the time, so they're very interested in getting that information.

So you walk into this room, there's thirty official state local and when you walk in, what is that energy like?

Is it a pin drop or do you just give me the energy of that room?

When you walk in, it was it was like a pin drop.

I mean it was like everyone was kind of holding their breath, you know.

I think they just really just wanted to inform me about the suspect they identified, and he was on the WSU campus and they didn't you know, again, like I said, they didn't know that I had talked with him before.

And when I told him that, I could see if they had a lot of interest in that.

So would you say that is the single detail that's kind of changed it?

You know this is going to be big, but did you know it was going to be historic, that this is like this life changing for you?

Yeah?

No, I mean the hair on the back of my neck stood was It was kind of a it was a chilling moment.

Gosh, you know what, I'm getting chills just hearing this.

I literally I'm telling the truth.

Gary, I just did too.

And Tom when he says he did the interview, And I've always said this to you and Gary, if you ever walk around in la or a pullman, you always think to yourself, do you think you ever talked to someone that killed someone?

Do you think you've actually ever had a conversation with the murderer?

And Gary interviews this guy for a job, and you must have had this feeling of interviewed in coldberger.

Something was there, something off?

Did you just think of another interview or in hindsight now just described that whole thing that you talked to the guy face to.

Yeah, you know, there's nothing that really stood out from the interview.

You know, I was looking for someone who you know, there are a couple of things I was looking for.

One was someone who had an interest in doing some actionable research, not just theoretical.

And then someone who could develop rapport and trust with my staff, because bringing someone in from the outside to a law enforcement agency and developing that that rapport is a difficult task and to be able to be an effective researcher, they're gonna they're gonna have to do that.

And he just he didn't meet really either of those criteria.

For m Yeah, and you'll think about Kato, you faced evil head on.

I mean, he's always a Simpson.

An hour before he come into the murders, Gary, you were I knew it was a zoom call, but you were looking at literally someone that's going to go down as one of the most notorious killers in this country.

The the just he's so evil to the core.

He's such a piece of crap really as a human being.

Face it's from TV.

It'll be the face of the killer, like like a Ramiras type.

Yeah.

Yeah, And Gary, I would imagine they were really interested in anything you could bring to the table because anything helps number one.

But look after the murders, Coberger went back to Pullman.

I mean, he starts driving around to kill time.

But that's your territory, Washington State University where he was a student and Pullman.

So I would imagine you had great value to these guys.

So what role did you take on after that?

I collected information from his on student campus housing and his office because I knew that at some point we'd be conducting search warrants at those locations, you know, for the murders.

But really, you know, throughout the entire investigation, and even after he was identified.

You know, when when I left the room that day, they told me do not share this information with anyone, including your own staff.

So they were holding their information very close to the vest, even after who he was identified, throughout the entire process.

And you know, Gary, Look, there's been a lot of comments about you know, this is this is not a big city Moscow, Idaho, So this is you know, this is a this was be huge in La New York Chicago, I mean, something this bad.

What was your thoughts as far as like who was collected in that room?

Were there a lot of federal authorities?

Did you feel like someone was taking charge, like they had a handle on this investigation?

Yeah, I mean there was.

There was Moscow PD, there was the FBI, Idaho State Police, and there was there was a lead investigator that was talking with me primarily, and then there were a few people that chimed in with some information as we talked.

But you know, I I had been asked previously about about my confidence and their ability to solve the crime before the crime was solved, and you know, I always had confidence in the Moscow Police Department and everyone that was involved.

I mean they're very you know, I think people think of the size of the community and we're kind of remote and maybe, you know, not up to the task.

But I always had complete confidence they're they're professional or thorough, and I know they received a lot of criticism throughout that investigation and I think they've been vindicated.

Well, that brings me to my point here.

You mentioned that they played close to the vest and there's a from the the news clips and the shows you watch, you see reporters, you know, yelling at them give us some information.

So did the did the did the reporters, did other news stations?

Did they even know you had an involvement or was it so close to the vest that you know how you said you couldn't tell anybody.

Did they know you were part of the investigation in Pullman?

They did not, So, no, they they really kept it close to the vest.

Yeah, you know, let's go back when you walk into that room, Gary, you know, there's a lot of pressure on everybody, you know, to find this killer.

Because this is almost a month later after the murders when they finally identify the DNA of Cobra on that knife sheath.

So what was your vibe as far as what you felt in that room that they were confident Coburger was the guy?

Because with all that pressure want to you want to say that you found somebody or we have a person of interest.

But did you get the vibe that not only did they have a suspect, but they got the killer.

Yeah.

Well, you know some of the questions that some of the people were asking, I could tell that they were looking at different things like cell phone connections and different types of forensics and actually during the initial meeting, and they didn't really tell me how they developed him as a suspect.

And it wasn't until James Fry, the chief, was walking me out.

I said, hey, how did you come up with him as a suspect?

And you said, we have DNA at the scene.

And that was on December nineteenth, correct, So last.

I'm sorry, summer nineteenth was a text to get me to that meeting at them.

Yeah, incredible.

So that's goosebump feeling for you again.

Yeah, and then you know, Gary, you touched on it.

But I mean it had to be just com I mean it almost had to be an odd of body experience when you realize you interviewed this guy, you saw him, and when we go back to that zoom call, if your wife had asked you later that day, hey, anything stand out today?

Well, yeah, I interviewed this guy that's gonna be a potential killer.

I mean, anything like that or was it just another interview?

Was there when you've had so much time to think about it now?

Were there any tells that this guy was off?

If I could add to that.

Also, it's sort of like the the Girl that Lived always described the guy with these bushy eyebrows.

Did you ever think right there there was a guy with these bushy eyebrows and a zoom call, and I know it wasn't Groucho Marx.

Yeah, no, no, you know, I never really made that connection.

But you know, one of the one of the reasons I didn't select them is just because he was he was somewhat odd.

He wasn't really personable, he didn't really keep he seemed not to have some good personal social.

Skills, and that stood out.

I would imagine, right you try to engage with him, he's probably just so calculating.

I got to get in here to see how the procedures work.

So any bit of evidence or any tips I can get to help me try to pull off this perfect murder.

Which with Tom and I've always said that with the Coldberger and you can, I'd love to hear your opinion.

We said, like, during this interview process on your zoom call, did Coldburger come off as this kind of guy that wanted to commit the perfect crime and he had that one mistake with the sheath because we've heard of things that maybe he wanted to come back to the house because he knew he did one mistake, possibly to go back into the house to find out if he could get the knife sheath.

But I believe he wanted to commit the perfect crime and that one slip up.

Yeah, you know, I don't know, and I don't know when in his mind he planned this and plan to do this, And I don't know if if interview for this intern position was part of that plan.

It very well could have been.

You know, I looking at the interests that he had in the minds of the mind of a killer and how a killer decides what they're going to do and how they feel when they're doing it.

You know, my personal opinion is that he wanted to carry that out to see, you know, how it felt to commit these CLLs.

Yeah, he is twisted at the highest level.

Gary, clear this up for us real quick.

When you got the call from the Moscow police chief, he didn't know that you had already interviewed Coburger, right, He just wanted you there because you're the police chief in Pulman and then at Washington State.

Is that right, right?

Okay, So then when when was the moment when they said Brian Coberger.

Did you remember the name immediately or did it take a few minutes ago?

Holy crap, right.

I was a nigher on the bell because it's not a common name, and so you know, I knew right away i'd heard that name before.

I just couldn't figure out from where.

And then as they are talking to me, I was, you know, the wheels were turning in my head, and I figured out that, you know, I had interviewed him previously.

When you said you'd interviewed him previously, did all thirty or more of the people here at the state and local officials, the other police and detectives, did they hear you say that and go, this is our guy?

I mean, this is a guy meaning Gary, this is our guy that you interviewed.

No, I mean they were.

I could tell that they were surprised that I had said that, and they had a lot of interest.

It's a Columbo moment.

Yeah, it really is.

And I don't you know, I wasn't there, but I would imagine the case wasn't really moving any direction until you can identify a suspect.

So this was the game changer, finding the DNA on the knife sheet.

Let let's play a hypothetical here, Gary, I mean he tried to commit the perfect crime, or at least that's the theory.

What if they never found that print on the knife sheath?

Would they still be looking?

Do you think?

I mean?

Because that changed everything?

Right?

There wasn't any other like solid evidence at that point, was there?

There wasn't And I know that, you know, I had some thoughts about it, and I've seen some interviews now from the lead investigator as well as Chief fry and and they said, what what my thoughts are is that they would have widened the net.

And you know, for example, the car that they were looking for, they had the wrong years to start with, and they would have just widened widened that and I think eventually they would have narrowed it down, but it would would have taken it longer and potentially a lot longer.

So without them knowing that you had an interview with this guy, Brian Kolberg, and without the sheath, because the big thing also was the pings on his phone, the pings on the phone from where the car was of the white Toyota.

So did they did they find those pings only because they identified him as Brian Kohlberger?

Otherwise would that have not that have been a clue that would have been thrown out right.

I mean there's there's so many vehicles that would match the general description of what they had from from video, you know, and doing things there.

I mean there's thousands and maybe keens of thousands that they would have had to come through to to investigate.

Yeah, it's Honda, a Lantra.

That was the car, the Hyndai.

Yeah, okay, so everything changes at that moment.

You got to lead, you gotta suspect, you got DNA, you got a fingerprint.

Coburger is either on his way or already in Pennsylvania.

So was the chase on at that point, you know, for them or he probably had.

How did that work out the timeline with him being in Pennsylvania, throwing out the garbage and everything, the FBI trailing him the whole way.

Yeah.

So, and you know that when he was identified, it was already winter break at the university, and I believe he was already gone from the campus and either on his way or back in Pennsylvania.

They had already begun to try to determine where he was as he was identified.

So, yeah, he was he was not in Pullman at that time that he was identified.

And he was pulled over by twice in Indianapolis, right in Indiana where your wife is from.

He got pulled over with the police there and it was so close to the vest.

They had no idea that this was the car of the killer.

Right.

Yeah, the information had not been shared you know widely that.

Carrie, you know in Cato.

It's unbelievable when these criminals make those types of mistakes and get pulled over.

I mean, you hear about it all the time.

You know, a trucker pulled over with you know, five hundred thousand tablets of fentanyl or you know, a billion dollars in go Gain, you know.

And it reminds me of the Oklahoma, Oklahoma city bomber who had no license played on the back of his car and got pulled over in Perry, Oklahoma.

I've been to Perry many times.

I've actually had great conversations with the sheriff out there in Perry, Oklahoma.

If you haven't watched that doc, it's great.

But man, you've been in the game for almost fifty years.

Does it ever surprise you when when you see someone that's gone to such lengths to do something so horrific and then gets pulled over a couple of times.

That is that fairly common?

You know, I think it is.

And and you know he was stopped I think both times for following to you close.

I think he was in a hurry to get to where he was going and not to be on the road.

And I can imagine I would love to know what his blood pressure was when he got pulled over, because he you know, he could have thought, oh, you know, bigging is up.

I would think the same thing.

But I saw the video that they it was ran on the news.

He looked calm and collective.

He looked like he was going to go through the scenario in his head of how he was like, Okay, thanks officer for letting you know, letting us off.

By the way, I killed a bunch of people.

It's it's amazing that this he was calm.

And I wondered if the conversation was in the car with his dad because he had no idea.

Well you know what, Gary, come on, if you're a parent and you raise somebody like Brian Koberger, I think there should be a mandatory five year sentence just for being a bad parent.

I mean, think about it.

It takes a long time to from Pullman, Washington to Pennsylvania.

Pops, would you find out in that car you should have come?

You're an accomplice?

I mean right?

I mean do you have any more information about what went on in that drive and the parents and how much they knew?

I don't.

Again, you know, until the recent release of information that Moscow did, they continued to keep information very close to the vest, even with law enforcement.

So I don't have a lot of details about that.

It's like he had a they played books on tape how to commit the perfect crime.

It's it's it's amazing that that's another story to have the parents of how what they knew.

I don't think they knew a thing.

Well about their I like what they do in some states, like in Michigan.

If you're the parent of a of a school shooter, I mean, you're gonna you're gonna face charges, which I love and I support that.

Gary.

What's the role of an intern underneath you?

Uh?

In the police department?

What Brian Cooberger tried to get what would what would a day be like for him?

What kind of tasks would he be assigned.

So that particular position, it was their incoming PhD students, so they would be assigned to the police department for three years to conduct research at our request.

So any type of research or crime analysis that we wanted done, that was their task to do.

And we had just finished a three year term with a PhD student that was just ending and so we were selecting a new one to work for the next three years.

Who got the job.

Well, I'll let they work at the Poland Police Department.

And I'm not there now, so I'll let them.

Sure, you know, once they identified it was Coburger from the DNA, did they raise his apartment or on campus housing?

And I'm sure it was all hands on deck in Pullman, right.

Well, so we didn't want to tip the hand before they made the arrest or did the search war in Pennsylvania.

Plus they didn't know really if there were any other accomplices or anyone else that could be involved.

So we worked with the Moscow PD and the FBI and Idaho State Police to time our service of the search warrants here on campus with the arrests and search warrants in Pennsylvania.

Right, So when that is going on, when you you know, tell him that you interviewed Colberger.

Is there, is he being staked out without him knowing it?

Is it immediately like they're in Pullman there, there's cops outside, is not so much outside his door, so he knows, But is he being followed that entire time?

Well, he had already left campus, he was already in Pennsylvania, So I believe they had They were in contact with Pennsylvania authorities, and I believe they started immediately surveillance of the residents there in Pennsylvania.

Yeah, and you know what we're talking about close knit communities here, Idaho and Washington.

This is the border.

Pullman's very close to Moscow, Idaho.

I mean this is like ten fifteen miles.

It's very close all the lot and as colleges, you know, you just without being there, there's no way for us to really understand what the impact was like on both of those campuses and in the community.

I'm sure it was a dark cloud.

I'm sure it was horrifying, scary when that murderer was still out there before December nineteenth.

But can you talk about that, Gary, because you know you're there, you're on campus, you're in both cities.

Yeah, I was, You're right, it was a huge impact in both communities and in particular you know, University of Idaho campus and the Washington State University campus.

Students were gone on break, but they were planning to be to come back for the next semester.

There were students that were concerned, there were parents that were concerned, Faculty and staff were concerned.

So it was a very difficult time.

You know.

Initially Moscow Police Department said that they didn't believe there was a threat in the community because they felt it was a targeted attack.

I don't think that provided much you know, comfort, the weight off the concern in the communities.

And then eventually Moscow he said, no, you know, we we kind of walk back from that statement, but there definitely was a lot of concern on campus.

We messaged regularly with our campus along with our student affairs office and our counseling and psychological services to offer resources to everyone on camp.

Think about that, there's no handbook.

I mean, you don't just pull out that book and say what happens after quadruple murder?

You know, right, your staff knew that you went up for that interview, correct, They know that you're doing this interview.

So when you come back is your staff somewhat like you know, you said you couldn't mention anything, but is your staff sort of worried?

And you've got to keep everybody calm?

Like did you say what?

What did you say to say?

Oh, they just asked me a few questions.

Yeah, you must have a good poker.

I was going to say, if you kept it close to your vest, what do you do with your staff?

What do you say?

I didn't even tell my staff I went there.

They didn't even know I was at Moscow PD, so I didn't really have to explain anything.

My staff, though, was all hands on deck.

Relate to provide high visibility on campus, to provide some sense of safety and security here.

Yeah, you know, Kate, I don't know if you ever heard of the Cleary Act.

I think it's called the Clear Act.

It's federally mandated where, Yeah, if you're receiving federal funds as a university, you have to send out alerts when something tragic like this or something really dangerous happens.

So Gary, obviously you're on the Washington State campus.

This happened at Idaho.

Did you guys get the Cleary alert there too?

And how did the campus respond, was there any differences how Washington State handled it handled it as opposed to Idaho.

Yeah, so you're right, Tom, The Cleary Actor has certain requirements for us in situations where there's a potential threat to the community.

Here on campus, the Universe of Ido sent out an alert to their campus letting them know that this crime had occurred just off campus and that the porpetrator was still at large, And as soon as we found out about it, we did a similar alert to our community here, and so, you know, we we want to make sure we continued communication, and we followed up with a number of messages to our community just to keep them informed because you know, in this case, you know, as you all know, Moscow was not releasing a lot of information, and so there was a lot of misinformation out there, people trying to fill in the gaps, and so we were trying to provide as much information as we could from what we knew to try to prevent a lot of misinformation.

So, even though you're in Pullman and everything's happening in Moscow and there's a hot line tip line coming up to the tip lines, go as far as people on the hot lines calling your company up calling you up.

We did get a few We did get a few calls, but we referred them to the tip line that Moscow p D.

And the FBI said, you know, you're in a rare air.

I mean, you interacted with Brian Coolberger in something that you know, he may have been strategizing about with the crimes he committed.

After that, after they identified it was him, did you have to talk to college professors at Washington State that maybe had him in class and we're trying to develop a profile about him and get as much information as you can.

Did you talk to any of the professors that taught.

Him well before he was identified as a suspect.

I did everything I could to not tip the hand of a suspect that i'd been identified, you know.

I did was able to find out where his office was and that type of thing.

But after he was identified, we definitely communicated.

We met with the Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology and the professors there that taught him and other graduate students that worked alongside him, and they were in shock.

I mean here they were working with him and he was at that point allegedly committed these crimes.

And so we actually had a mental health professional on retainer for the police department that we loaned out to that department to work with their staff to you know, to address their concerns and their mental health after this had happened.

You know, it's an interesting question, is just talking to you Gary, in looking back, has there been any crimes in Pullman area that matched this kind of crime that maybe Colberger did a crime before this, if this was his first crime, or is there any history in that surrounding area of a break in, a knife, someone coming in for robbery that happened in the area that you could say this this might have been Coldberger trying it for the first time.

There was actually a crime in in Poland that had that occurred some months prior that was investigated to determine whether he was a suspect, but it was determined he had not arrived in Poland when that crime occurred and so he was eliminated as a SI.

So do you think that's just his first try?

Was that crime in Moscow that in your opinion, well, at.

Least as far as a physical assault.

Now it's possible he may have committed you know, burglaries where nobody saw him and that and that type of thing where you know, we don't know if he was a suspect, but I'm not aware of any assault type of crimes that are unsolved that he is a potential suspect.

You know, I'm addicted to crime shows, and true crime is sort of like everybody else you're addicted to.

You try to come up with theories, but on every show it always starts with no one goes right into a murder.

It always starts with something.

But if this was his first time that he was going to prove it, it just blows me away that this is going to be four homicides young kids.

Yeah, but I think that points to his arrogance too, and how he thinks he's smarter than everybody, and that you know, he had researched it and he was going to pull it off.

He's the type of guy that doesn't think I need a trial run I'm that.

Good, or he just said I'm going to go for it.

Yeah, Hey, Gary.

Obviously, with the with the plea deal, I mean that shook a lot of people, and there was a lot of controversy, you know, a lot of anger with the prosecutors and whatnot.

A lot of the parents were not happy about it, and clearly that'd be like an earthquake out there when that happened.

But what's your thoughts.

Were you surprised, you know, when he was offered that and that you know, this is the this is the bottom line.

That's no death penalty, life in prison, no no chance of parole.

Well, I was a little surprised based on how aggressive the defense team was that they would just end up with with the plea deal.

But then again, you know, it seems like they threw everything at the wall to see what would stick, and nothing did.

And you know, in the state of Idaho, I have to say, they don't they don't mess around with criminals like you know in some other states maybe so, uh, you know, they I think the judge handled it very well.

Uh.

And once the defense team couldn't get any kind of a wedge there for some type of a defense, I don't think they had any other choice.

And I think, you know, my opinion is it was a good deal.

You know, I know, I totally respect the opinions of the families of the victims who weren't happy.

You know, I can't imagine the feelings that they have.

And you know, and they have a right to feel however however way they want.

But when someone's on death row, well, first of all, even you know, it only takes one juror not to get convicted, it takes one juror not to get the death penalty.

And then even after the death penalty, there's there's multiple years of appeals and that type of thing that puts the families of the victims threw this over and over again, and so in in my opinion, this was a really good deal.

That it's over and done with no chance of appeal and he's in prison for the rest of it.

I agree.

I agree that that's exactly how I felt too.

Now remove the emotion, because you know we're not there, our families weren't involved.

But I mean, if you can guarantee that he can't appeal, because he could have appealed on the federal level and the state level and drag this thing on for decades, I'd love to see him in front of a firing squad.

I'd pay one thousand dollars on pay per view if they would do it, and I'd pay for Zeus and I pay for Cato.

We'll have a party.

I would love to watch him be executed by a firing squad.

But the next best thing is he spends life in prison in a small cage and maybe somebody takes him out in the promisario.

I have a feeling he's going to get death penalty in prison.

I think that you know, it happened to Domer.

I think it's just going to happen to this guy.

I've heard reports already, Gary, Now, who knows, but that you know, he's already complaining in prison.

And one of the things the inmates are doing, because he's twenty three hours in his cell, gets one hour out.

He gets a shower every other day.

But I heard they're yelling at him constantly through the vents so he can't sleep, which I think is awesome.

But I mean, this little bitch is already complaining about life in prison, you know what I mean, Just die, coburg eror just just die.

Yeah.

I mean.

The other way to look at it, too, is a death penalty would be the your way out for him.

And if he has to suffer in prison, maybe that's that's that's a good thing.

Yeah, sorry, Gary, I got a little animated.

Yeah, I think Tom would pay ten thousand to be on the firing squad with a bullet or out of bullet.

Gary, I'm a bad shot.

It might take a while.

It's always fake bullets.

Don't worry, oh man, it's great.

Gary.

Fifty years almost in law enforcement.

And this you were you had already announced your retirement.

You know, you knew this was the end of the road, right you were the chief of police in Pullman.

Then they wanted you to become the chief of police at Washington State University, which he did, but you knew the end was near.

And then this thing comes.

This is this was not on your bingo card, was it.

No, it wasn't.

And I you know, I came here in August of twenty two and this, you know, I thought, Okay, working at the university, it's going to be pretty low key, you know, I'll be able to kind of coast to a retirement.

And then in November, you know, this happens.

And in fact that the very next month we had run a regional squat came one of our guys was involved in a fatal shooting on an incident with the SAUT team.

So it turned out to be not so much of a coasting, Uh, coasting, torture time kid.

But you know, these types of events are challenging, and that's one of the reasons I got into this profession was because I enjoyed the challenge.

And so you know, it's uh, do you so, Gary, do you feel a pressure at all of sort of the parents, the students still to this day always looking for their you know, the pressure of you got to make sure everybody's safe, the safety everybody do you have?

You've got to make sure this is happening.

And I imagine the students are saying and the parents are saying, how are you going to make us safer?

Right?

Yeah, you know, I've been a little bit surprised about the I guess I was expecting more of that pressure following these homicides, but I think there's been a lot less than I anticipated.

But partly as a result of this, we did our our US representative was able to secure a three million dollar grant to increase security cameras and door access controls on campus.

And so that's one of the things that we've done to improve safety on campus.

And so I think we've done and our communication has been has been really good.

Do you so, I think we've done a good job in addressing the aftermath of this.

So you know, the last week, there's been last ten days, there's been three school shootings at different places, three different shootings of.

Uh, well, the one in target in that school, right.

There's one in Georgia.

Okay, there's one I think in Texas at a school target.

It was at a target in Texas.

Okay, target, but I think there was another school shoot.

But with the shooting is going on, do you have a a program where professors say, hey, there might be a red flag and this person, because it's so common now where people are just shooting people.

So yeah, we do.

I mean, we have we have a threat assessment team and we have multi all ways that people can submit concerns that they have about people that they see, different types of behaviors or activities that they can submit to us.

And all of our threat Assessment team members are trained and conducting threat assessments using an objective, evidence based tool, and so we have a very robust process here to follow up on those types of.

Concerns as people have been coming in with a lot of people have been saying there's a person that's a little suspicious.

You know, we I would say, around the time of these murders, and soon afterwards, we did have an increase in the number of reports that we've had, So yeah, we have seen that increase.

Yeah, you know, once Coberg was identified and you know you're on the hunt for the right guy, it's just a matter of time.

I'm sure that was maybe kind of the thoughts that law enforcement had.

But Gary, you have so much time that to think about other things.

What if different scenarios.

He was a student at Washington State, he had to have known that campus, like really, well, I'm sure it's a bigger campus than Idaho, but he goes to Idaho Moscow to kill at the University of Idaho.

Did you ever think about that, man, what if this happened on our campus because this is where he was, He knew the exits, he knew how to Maybe that just proves to the point that he was actually going after, you know, specifically these victims.

But did you ever think of that and talk about it with the chancellor and the regents or anything like that.

No, we didn't really have discussions like that.

I did have that very same thought when this happened, and in fact, when it happened.

One of my thoughts was, wow, I hope that there's no one from WU that is connected to this, and ultimately that you know that exactly right?

I mean that that would be rough.

I mean that you don't you never want your university staying like that.

But then it just opens up.

How involved was he?

You know, is he still out there or is he capable of commanding murders?

Does he want to be a copycat?

You never know.

With Tom's point saying that you know, it pulled me he knows the whole layout of the campus.

Did we find out later that he knew the layout of this other campus that he knew where these students were?

Did he know about the house?

And that house was a little bit off campus right.

Kitten's Road, but it was a well known party house.

Yeah, I mean early it was adjacent to campus.

But the street itself is not it's not like off off a main street.

It's like a cult a sack at another cult sack, and so it's not easy to find just driving around.

You kind of have to look for it.

So so you're saying that he probably had been there once before in that area, because you just don't find that right.

You know, I'm sure he had Garry.

I'll tell you what, Man, I'm so impressed by you your career.

I really appreciate you coming on today.

I know you got a meeting coming up here in a second.

But man, almost fifty years with a badge, I mean that is unbelievable.

In California too, well, thirty three.

Years in California.

That's what I want to talk about real quick too, because you were here in southern California and Claremont three.

You grew up in the southern California.

Go out there, think it's gonna be a little more peaceful.

Not at the end, But how do you even measure what would be the second biggest case that you've ever followed, or the big the second biggest crime?

Could you could you identify what would be right below the coburger one?

Yeah, I mean the next one that stands out most to me that and it's not necessarily was a well it was a crime, but we had when I worked at the Pullman Police Department.

Greek Row is all off campus, so all the fraternities and sororities are all in the handled by the Pullman Police Department.

And there was a fraternity event where a new fraternity member was hazed essentially and the next morning died from alcohol poisoning.

Sam Martinez was his name, And you know that sent shock waves in the community as well.

That was that was a very much a big tragedy.

I just don't get hazing.

I just don't get it.

I don't get I mean, how these universities allow it.

I mean they don't.

They get you.

It happens and they get shut down because ours I was sae, we got shut down.

Did you really?

I'll tell you what, man, I would sue everybody if one of my kids got killed getting hazed at a university.

It's just terrible.

I mean it's it's the like, uh, you know, you don't want to know the truth?

Gary, are you gonna can you be a consultant when you're done a long, long time, long career?

You know, uh, pressure every single day.

I mean we have no clue what you've had to deal with in your life right where you are keeping the community safer for your entire professional career.

It's unbelievable.

But what are you going to do in retirement now when you have some time?

Uh?

You know, I I started woodworking as a hobby.

A number of years ago, I built a wood working shop and my third card rode So I really enjoyed doing that and then visiting kids and grad kids in California building.

I came here.

I was at Kia yesterday, true story, Gary, I had to go to the bathroom at a Kia.

They made me build the urinal.

I can't believe it.

Gary, I started laughing as soon as he said I was at Akia yesterday.

I knew there was gonna be something funny.

I think I was on a plane.

Actually, yeah, but you got the the I threw it in there.

You got the three cent cinnamon roll.

I'm sure right?

What they what do they sell there?

Beef, Swedish meatball, Swedish people.

Gary, you know I gave you a heads up on this one too, because I always tell our guests, look k train over here.

Everybody watched the OJ trial.

Everybody knows Kto.

You were a little bit younger in your police career working in southern California.

I don't know if you ninety four.

Yeah, head of interactions with OJ coming through Claremont.

But if you have a question for Kato, bring it.

Put them on the spot.

Kato, what's your explanation for the verdict.

My explanation is, I believe that the jury was at a time that Rodney King had just happened, and the jury, I believe they love celebrity, and I saw that I could see it in them with them waving two oj that I think it was just we're gonna this is going to inevitable, inevitable that he'll be innocent.

And I think that's just my opinion, of course, but I think that's what would happen.

It was, it was should have been tried in Santa Monica, Gary.

We had Gil Correo on multiple episodes.

He he and his partner Frank Salerno were the ones that got Richard Ramirez the nightstalker and Frank of course hillside strangler.

Tom Lang's a very very dear friend of both Cato and I has been on our show six seven times.

Do you have every interactions with l A p D.

L A Sheriffs, those guys in particular.

Yeah, mostly l A Sheriffs.

When I was at Clarmont during the early part of my career, l A Sheriff's Homicide would handle our homicide cases, and then later in my career.

We were handling our own, but I I did work with LA sheriffs frequently.

I mean they had areas that were the patrol guys were were around our city, and then men with their homicide guys.

And people watching our show.

If you're not familiar with the Clermont colleges, it's an elite universities, very very affluent area and so security.

The parents are saying, we want our kids secure in this place.

Am I right?

Oh yeah, yeah, high expectations.

Well, Gary has a hoard out.

He has a meeting to go to.

I told him, I said, Gary, you're the one with a gun in the badge man.

You tell him when you're going to show up.

The meeting starts when you get there.

But he says, everybody of this meeting has a gun and a bash.

So Gary, thank you so much.

Seriously.

We put this together on short notice.

I knew you were going to be a fascinating guest.

I knew our audience is going to love this.

Loaded up with comments we want to hear all about it.

We're gonna have more Coburger episodes.

All right, We're not done.

Okay, next week we'll have another one.

Because this you know this still is just a fascinating case in the true crime world.

And Tom and I have a request for you to do our show in three months, but you have to make us a table.

I wass not.

Going to work, all right, Gary, thanks much, man, appreciate everything that you've done in your career, and thanks for joining us today.

Thanks for having me.

Okay by Gary.

Hey, Gary, just keep your computer up for a second, okay, and it'll finish loading.

Yeah, it'll load, but you go in the bathkerotom just go to the meeting.

Whatever.

Yeah, go to your meeting.

Keep the computer on.

Thanks Gary, thank you.

It's my pleasure.

All right.

I told you, kay Trank get off the plane coming back from Buffalo, I said, get ready, buckle up.

We got a great guest today and Gary was awesome.

You were in Europe and you look so fresh.

Oh.

Thanks.

You know what, I think we picked the right times to fly.

Okay, we're gonna review our trips real quick because we were gone for a while.

I had a great time me or our family.

We went to Paris, then we went to santral Pey, then we went to Rome, and then we flew back out of London.

But man, the kids had never been to Europe.

I've never been to Italy, High Central Pey, Paris.

I love Parish.

Oh here, get this too.

I told everybody, my family, everybody, anybody that knew I was going to say, listen, I'm gonna eat so much carbonara and I get to Rome.

You have no idea, And I backed it up.

Cato I had in three days.

I think I had five, including two in one day.

This is the only wait.

I did have a Catchio Pepe one time too, but went to this restaurant by the Uh.

I met Paul Barressi, the Hollywood fixer, had a good friend in Rome.

He says, you got to hook up, okay with the with this guy, and I did, and he showed us around the Vatican like you wouldn't believe.

But we met him at this Italian restaurant by the Vatican.

It's a converted church and it was the best carbonara I ever had.

And the owner of that restaurant is just so amazing.

She she would demand demand that you don't call it carbonaro.

I had to call it the besting carbonara fing real word too, by the way.

So it was an amazing, great trip.

So do you notice the difference of food in other countries with at additives, and that was it.

If you if someone blindfolds you, would you be able to tell No?

On Italian food, I think I would.

Italian food in Rome, I think it's just next level.

I do.

But there's great Italian restaurants here.

La is probably the best food city in America.

So it's not Oh, I can in the croissants, they're so fresh in the pastrits and things like that.

The bag adds, Yes, there is a clear difference.

And the wine was great too.

Can I blow you away with the story really quick?

Yeah, So I'm coming back from Buffalo.

Jim Kelly, Charity Kelly for kids, the most incredible time.

Ralph Wilson has passed away.

But he was the owner of the Bills and the Ralph Wilson Stadium.

But I met his widow, Mary Wilson.

She's terrific.

I had so much fun, but I have all these connections.

It took me eleven hours.

I don't know how long your flight was.

Eleven hours to get from LA to Buffalo with delays in America.

So exactly how long it took to get back eleven hours?

That's too long.

Just to out of Buffalo.

So now my layover in Denver and this woman looks at me and goes Cato, I go Tom.

I had a thirty year flashback.

It was Rachel for our the phone call with the night of the murders.

What random random in the Denver.

Airport, in the airport with her two twin sons.

Okay, describe again her role.

She was the girl that was sort of my friend dating.

I don't know.

I think you thought it was an earthquake.

Yes, Oh my god.

We've told this story so many times on this show, and it's such a.

Big since thirty one years that was not even at all.

And I look, I'm telling you, I got the the right now.

I've got the feeling of the goosebumps again.

I couldn't believe it that we were on the same flight.

Oh god, we're on the same flight, the same flight.

For context, everybody, we've mentioned this story many times.

Rachel for Ernet when she's married.

You had the.

Story on the Netflix dock, all the big docs.

When you talk about this is like a time stamp in the OJ saga, because this is after McDonald's this is after OJ gets back from Bundy.

And you're tak to Rachel.

That's where the picture of the thumbs happened.

And you thought it was an earthquake.

Did we have an earthquake?

My picture just moved?

What What do you think the message there is there's gotta be I meanoints in the world.

I believe me.

On the plane, I'm freaking out because we're in the same flight.

She wait different.

I was a a group anyways Southwest, So we're talking and then we're boarding, so it was like sort of frazzled of I gotta I'm in this group.

I get my you know, my luggage pack.

So but I met her sons.

They're terrific.

I told her about what was going on in Buffalo, but we didn't have time to It was just no time.

I gets light and my ride's there.

So it was like a chance encounter.

But I was thinking in my head, what were the odds of that even happening at the airport?

So on the flight the whole time, I'm going, we're gonna crash, I did, I said what?

It was just too bizarre for me to comprehend that.

I know, you can't.

You can't piece all that together.

Isn't in an hour.

I mean, crap, what what are they?

Terrific?

Her kids beautiful.

So it was really really incredible, just part of history of me seeing that that someone I probably thought it would you would never see the rest of your life.

Okay, two things.

Number one, please tell me you got her phone number, because I want to get her perspective of that phone call with you.

And number two, imagine how many times she's told that story that she was talking to Kato Kale because all the documentaries.

Maybe it's on social media, but no, ok we didn't have chat.

It didn't even go there, and I wasn't her kids are trying to figure out who this goofy guy was.

I was gonna go, I was your mom and I were friends, and I'm sure she told them.

That's a long story, Kato.

You'd have that explanation to a lot of people, a lot of kids.

I wanted to know a lot of a lot of kids want to go, how did you know?

Mom?

Is that?

But isn't that the most incredible?

I was, Wait, I almost forgot to tell you because it was like my mind, I gotta tell Tommy, you won't to leave the.

Story all right.

I don't believe it, but I mean, I know it's true, but I don't believe it.

I find it.

So okay, if you don't mind, I'm gonna stock Rachel and get her on the show.

You cool with that?

Okay, Zeus, welcome back from Texas.

Did they kick you out?

I bet they kicked you out.

They're redistrict.

They say, let's read district and let's get Zeus's ass out of here.

I went from visiting his family.

It's too much.

I thought I had Zeus on my Instagram page.

I thought, I go, wait, did Zeus become James Bond?

What's with all the tuxedos.

It's like, ya, what are you trying to do?

And press chicks?

Just we're like cowboy boots out there in Texas.

That's all you need.

Did you meet a woman there?

No, poor Zeus, Let's get that kid a date.

Okay, great, Great that the group's back.

You know, our travels are done.

We're back.

We're starting a membership next week.

So if you're watching this next week, it started.

Okay, membership, baby, all the details in our community page.

That story would have been part of the membership.

I just told you that ending.

Yeah, yeah, if you heard Cato story.

Pretend you never heard it, because we're gonna charge you fifty bucks next time.

Kidding.

Hey, we appreciate everybody.

Uh, make sure you subscribe to this channel.

Tell other people to subscribe to the channel, follow us on social media.

We'll keep you updated on it everything.

Any final words here, Kato.

Great time, so great to see you, great to see zeus.

The show's on fire, so in the show's on so many I'm not making so many people in Buffalo.

I'm in a huge charity event, lots of celebrities, a lot of NFL players, everybody.

Everybody's aware of one degree of scandals.

I'm not.

I'm not making that up.

Yep, it's really becoming.

Nice, a big show.

Nice all right for the zooster Zuserni.

I just got back from you a little the k train always pleasure.

I'm Tom Xenner and we will see you very very soon.