How do you interpret what Coburger is doing right now?

The complaining He's constantly in the news.

The other inmates don't much like Brian Coburger because the other inmates have decided to team up on a twenty four hour attack of noise.

Solitary confinement is torture.

It causes such severe mental damage.

I think the argument has to be, if he's in the general population of the prison, he's going to be killed.

He needs to be protected from others, and others need to be protected from him.

Families don't care about this guy.

People would hate you for having compassion for someone that viciously killed for young adults.

Do we want to make of him more of a monster than he already was?

His level of arrogance, he doesn't talk much, and he was always the smartest guy in the room.

Would screwed up the perfect crime for him.

It's a good question, and it's the question that I put to the chief because it's the one everybody wants to know.

He was looking to buy another knife.

He used a VPN.

They had actually spotted him.

Chief, you think the FBI and Idoho State Police knew something.

They could have given the heads.

Up There's been some books written and stuff that claim that the FBI.

My understanding is that they got some real gangs going there.

Guards don't run a prison.

The guards are there to keep the prisoners in.

That's the misconception that everybody has.

Brian Cooberger is behind bars.

But now the story is the prison.

The killer is complaining about everything.

The food, the fellow cons the isolation.

It might be getting into his mind right now at a level that he would never ever imagine.

Today we are going inside the mind of one of America's most notorious killers.

He's been in the headlines.

We know what a horrible person he is, but today we're gonna learn how horrible the conditions just might be for him inside that prison.

The guilt, the fear, the isolation.

And with us today, two Titans and why PD legend Paul Morrow.

You've see him on Fox News.

He is a legend, one of the top experts in law enforcement in the media today.

And our other guest is the top prison psych expert, doctor Terry Cooper's.

This guy is the OG.

He's a living legend.

He is the number one authority when it comes to inmates and what they're going through.

In prison, specifically in solitary confinement.

Welcome everybody.

I'm Tom Zenner.

This is Tom Zenner Scandal.

I'm the co host of one Degree of Scandalists with this man over here, the one and only Kato.

This is gonna be a great, great show.

This is it.

Buckle up everybody because we have to just VIP guests today that are gonna break down everything that's going inside the prison and inside the mind of Coburger.

You ready to get this thing roll?

Let's do it?

Uh.

Doctor Cooper is great to see you.

Thank you so much for joining us from Berkeley.

You know your experience is extensive in mental health for prisoners.

This is what you spend what three four decades on?

All right, you have all the degrees you teach at the right institute.

Right now, how do you interpret what Coburger is doing right now?

The complaining he's constantly in the news.

All right, this isn't made up.

He's actually doing this.

Do you think is this typical for someone that's now facing the reality of solitary confinement twenty three hours a day, or do you think this is strategic on his part and he's trying to get out of there?

Trying to get to another prison.

Interested in what you think about what he's complaining about.

Well, I actually worry about the people who don't complain.

Solitary confinement is torture.

It is so stark and causes such severe mental damage that anybody in the right mind would complain.

The problem is that it makes people not in the right mind.

It causes mental illness, It exacerbates ongoing mental illness.

It also causes a great number of symptoms which make it hard for people to think straight.

So someone who complains is actually showing signs of mental health.

In that context, we need to remember that he is an extraordinary he's guilty of an extraordinary crime, and therefore he's seen as a highness villain.

But solitary confinement is something that's used for over one hundred and forty thousand people in the United States, not counting ice detention and ice atention does a lot of solitary confinement.

So it's not the case that only what's called quote worst of the worst unquote is in solitary confinement.

Actually, most prisoners spend significant time in solitary confinement.

It causes massive damage, and he's only the tip of the Iceberg.

That is, he's there and there's not a lot of public sympathy for him.

Still, solary confinement is very damaging and we need to be worried about that.

Well, I think the argument has to be though, that the prison is saying we're doing it for his safety, because I think, give he's in the general population of the prison, my opinion is he's going to be killed.

I think that someone is just planning it.

That we saw it happen with Jeffrey Dahmer.

I'm from Millwak, Wisconsin.

I remember that case completely, that there's probably planning going on.

They're already shouting through the events that they're going to go kill him.

So don't you see that as the argument that they're doing it for his safety, not to be killed in prison?

Well, it's sort of a risk benefit analysis that is, there is a risk of great psychiatric damage and a lot and physical damage and brain changes in solitary confinement, and then on the benefit side, it's possible that there's a security benefit.

But the way I look at that, first of all, he's really exceptional.

He's way outside the usual prisoner biography.

He needs special services that instead of isolating him he needs to be separated from people who he's in danger from, and that seption requires some creativity on the part of correctional authorities.

He needs to get daily exercise, he needs to have social engagement, but he needs to be protected from others, and others need to be protected from him, and that can be done without solitary confinement.

Yep.

Okay, so you can already tell this is going to be a great episode.

And Kato, I had a conversation with doctor Cooper's yesterday because look, I think you probably feel the same way as I do.

I think most of our viewers do as well.

There's no punishment bad enough for Coburger in a lot of people's opinion, Like I'm actively rooting that he's going through hell.

And I'm sure this doesn't align with maybe doctor Cooper's training, his methodology, and his you know study, right, which this probably isn't an ideal way for someone to be incarcerated, but tough shit, right, you commit these types of crimes.

So we're going to try to navigate this with doctor Cooper's today.

Ultimate respect for you, and I really really admire how you have to get past maybe some of your your moral thinkings or maybe something that would go you know, if you knew somebody that was killed so savagely, or if you knew these families.

You know, but you have to separate this and we need people like you out there right determining, you know, is there a better way to do and is it feasible, is it even possible?

You know, Tom brings up this point.

You think of the families and what the families would want, and the families don't care about this guy.

They I think they most of them probably want to rot in prison.

That's it.

And like Tom says, you got to morally look at it.

And how do you I can't imagine if you're on social media or not, but people probably would hate you for having compassion for a someone that viciously killed for young adults.

You know.

I think there's a fallacy here, and that is that this individual is exceptional.

As I mentioned, there's over one hundred and forty thousand people in solitary confinement.

Or take the two hundred and some immigrints who had not done any crime except for being undocumented and were sent to the prison in El Salvador, which is a known torture chamber.

They're crowded, seventy one hundred of them in a single space that's too small, doesn't have bathrooms, They get terrible food, all right?

Is that the way we want to conduct criminal justice in the United States.

It's not about a single individual who happens to have done highness crimes, and yes, there's not a lot of compassion for him individually.

However, he then becomes the wedge that allows torture to go on.

And that's what's going on here.

It's not about sympathy for him or lack of sympathy for him.

It's about how do we want to do criminal justice in the United States.

Personally, I believe torture is not okay no matter how awful someone's crimes are.

If the United States should not be about torturing people.

Second of all, it's not about him.

It's about those one hundred and forty thousand people in solitary confinement, and it's about the two hundred that were sent to the Sea Cut prison in El Salvador.

And that's what we need to think about while having this discussion.

What a rood awakening.

You get off the plane and you're in that prison in El Salvador, Man crime doesn't pay, you know, if they're criminals.

I know Terry's mentioning that, you know some of them are just undocumented, But I mean they try to save the worst of the worst for that prison in El Salvador.

And I look at the film of the people that show the prisoners in that El suwarndor the prison there of them, all shaved heads, all tats that a lot of them do look like they're part of MS thirteen.

But my goodness, that is it's like sardines just packed in the can.

Cater I'm sure you looked at doctor Cooper's biography and resume.

He really is the gold standard in prison mental health boards, certified psychiatrists, Professor Emeritus at the Right Institute.

His groundbreaking work on solitary confinement and inmate psychology has shaped national correctional policy.

So he's got a voice that's heard at the highest levels.

Let me ask you this, doctor Cooper's reality has to be setting in right now for Coburger.

Now, this guy is a sociopath.

He thought he was going to get away with the perfect crime.

I feel confident saying that because a lot of experts and people that are around him at the universe and everything agree with me?

What is it like when reality does kick in?

And do you think he was thinking about this at all as he was planning these murders?

Afterwards, and then.

We hear some of the recording or some of the research that has come out too that said he was scrambling once they identified his and how he's trying to clean it.

This wasn't something probably that anybody can be mentally prepared for.

So do you think part of this is just reality setting it in a very harsh way of what the next forty to fifty sixty years looks like for him if he survives.

Well, I don't think this is just anything.

I think this is torture.

And the question is moral a do you think that if someone's crime is horrible enough then they deserve to be tortured?

And my answer is no, torture is not okay.

I can't comment about his what's on his mind because I haven't examined him.

And you know, I'm barred as an ethical psychiatrist from commenting about someone's mental state who I have not personally examined.

I haven't examined him, so I can't give you opinions about that.

But what I can say is this, The main question is not what he's done in the past.

He's in prison, he's been seen in court, convicted and sent to prison.

The question is what's he going to be like in the future.

And I can tell you with certainty that putting him in solitary confinement and keeping him there is going to make him less rule and law abiding and more violent in the future.

Now, why would we want to do that?

So, Okay, he's committed a highness crime.

I have total sympathy for the survivors, the families of the people that died.

However, do we want to make of him more of a monster than what he already was?

And just in terms of policy, he then becomes the poster child for more solitary confinement, which makes more people subject to what I call the decimation of life skills.

They lose the capacity to settle disputes peacefully in solitary confinement.

That is a result research.

We know that.

Now, why would we want to inflict that on people?

Even if they previously in the past done terrible crimes, Why would we want to make them worse?

It makes no sense.

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Yeah, you know Terry was talking about.

Brian Kolberg is a special case in prison.

Is it because of his high intellect that he doesn't match the model?

The model prisoner he's studying for his PhD.

I imagine a lot of the other people in prison didn't even get through college, or maybe it's my opinion that demographic show that some of them are not as educated.

And this guy has got to be in the top one percent of someone in solitary confinement.

In terms of past educational achievements.

Yes, but actually we should talk about who's in prison.

You know, there's this media blitz about highness, criminals, the worst of the worst in solitary.

The actual truth is that most people in prison are poor.

They grew up in low income communities.

There's a lot of trauma in their life, disproportionately people of color.

There's forty three forty five percent of prisoners are African American, well only thirteen percent of the population.

Is that should make us think about racism in society and why so many people who are black are ending up in prison.

The other thing is that people are they drop out of school and they got into trouble.

I see them later on.

Mainly what I do I do some criminal trials as an expert witness, and I applying about sanity and competence.

But that's a small part of my work.

The main part of my work is civil litigation, where we talk about what standards there are for how you treat people in prison.

And what I end up doing is talking to people in their thirties or forties, and they will tell me this typical story.

I was fourteen, I was, you know, beaten, sexually abused whatever.

At home.

I got into drugs, I got in with the wrong people, I committed crimes.

It was stupid.

I've regretted it ever since.

They go to prison when they're in their late teens or early twenties, they've only finished the ninth or tenth grade in high school.

They study, they grow up in prison.

They become a mixture of people.

They're ordinary people.

Some of them are smart, some of them aren't so smart, just like out here.

Some of them are very kind, some of them are mean.

And it's basically a sampling like the population outside of prison on all sociopaths.

That's a myth.

And what happens is they mature in prison, so that what I meet, the people I meet to interview when I'm looking at the conditions in prison are very smart.

They can be at the level of a doctorate in college, but they haven't had the actual official education I get into intelligent conversations with them, and I think I could be relating to them out here in the community.

It's just that they when they were nineteen or twenty two, did a terrible crime and they're spending their life in prison.

It's not and they're not inhuman.

They're human beings with a mixture of good and bad in their background.

Tom and I had a debate in one of our shows, and it's in the news now with the Menendez brothers being tonied parole, and we had other guests on and saying they're going to get parole.

Tom was leaning towards they'll definitely get a parole.

So they have to go in front of a parole board, and everybody said that their behavior, even guards said it's incredible behavior.

And then we find out that it's not incredible behavior.

So I mean, who do you believe.

So it's something like they were had a cell phone, they were doing some low level drug distribution.

And I want to know this.

I want to know how how does someone get something snuck into prison?

How do you get gun?

How do you get I mean, I gut, how do you get drugs?

How do you do how do you get a fuck.

I don't understand.

How can someone get something where it's you're in prison?

How does it happen?

Well, this is not my area of expertise, but I will tell you some of what I've heard.

First of all, when you go to visit prisons with visit prisoners, which I do frequently, I go in and I see many people at a time while I'm investigating to be an expert witness in a civil lawsuit.

It takes me twenty minutes and a half an hour to get in through visiting.

They search me thoroughly, they check my paperwork, and I'm on a legal visit.

I'm a psychiatrist, but I'm going in as a consultant to a lawyer.

Now you watch about ten feet away, and the staff is entering.

All of the custody officers and the other staff, the teachers.

They usually carry lunch boxes.

The officer at the desk ask them to open the lunch box.

They open it just quickly and close it and they walk through without going through a metal detector.

All right, now, Now, question is how do drugs get into prison?

Is it those visitors who are being searched and questioned and held at the front desk and examined.

Or might it be some of the staff who are just let in who would make a lot of money by bringing drugs.

I'll say for you, it's the staff.

Do you know what's got to be the biggest nightmare right here is if someone sneaks in the prisoner has your in prison and you sneak a cell phone in your anus and it it's what I heard, and then it rings, and then you're selling.

Then the sell maide goes.

I'll get that.

It's gotta be a bad thing.

Tom.

What am I saying?

Hey, doctor, I warned you this is Kato kaln.

You gotta be ready for this stuff.

Okay, I'm just trying to I'm just trying to go through the whole of sneaking and in la.

Like I said, it's a big news story.

With it is, you know, but it helps to bring things a little bit of l likeness to it.

But to doctor Cooper's point, you know, there's their sophistication when it comes to some of these guards, right they're working together, especially when there's gang affiliations inside.

I mean like here in southern California, I mean the gangs they're very, very powerful inside these prisons.

As a matter of fact, I've heard stories where gang leaders make guys commit crime to get into the prison to start, you know, working it on the interior, and then they have a supply chain where they can get stuff in and things like that.

You know, when Kyle or Kato, remember when a couple of weeks ago, when we had Chief Gary Jenkins, who was the chief of police in Pullman and also Washingt State University.

I asked him, Hey, do you ever think about what if Coberger committed this crime at the Washington State campus and this goes to doctor Cooper's here, if he had, he'd be in a different prison system.

That'd be Washington.

He's in Idaho.

Do the states.

Differ as far as their harshness, as far as what life is like in solitary confinement, and just how they're viewed in general by leadership in that state.

Absolutely, there is a movement today in corrections.

And I'm not talking just about journalists and people who are critical of the prison system.

I'm talking about commissioners of corrections in various states, wardens and such are going to Norway to visit and see what they do with prisoners.

They have a rehabilitation centered program in Norway, and actually the sentences in Norway are much shorter than the United States and the recidivism rates are much less lower.

And in between those two things, between the crime and the recidivism, there is time in prison where prisoners are required to do rehabilitation, to have jobs.

They're let out of the prison when they pass the security tests, and they work in the community in preparation for their release.

Various states have sent representatives from high in their administration, including the commissioner or director, to Norway to study this system.

North Dakota has set up a Norwegian system in the state.

What they did is they enhanced rehabilitation programs.

They do things like releasing people from solitary once they've proven with good behavior that they can get along outside, and then they give them a job as a mentor to someone who's still in solitary and needs to change their behavior to get out.

They have jobs like that, They have more education, they do training so people will make it when they go straight, they'll succeed when they are released.

And guess what, They've reduced the number of people in solitary confinement in North Dakota and the violence rate in the entire prison system has gone down as a result.

So there's one state Washington happens to be sending people to Norway to look at their system.

Oregon, Washington, Colorado, North Dakota, New York, and all of those states have enacted certain parts of the Norwegian rehabilitation strategy and they've all seen good results, have reduced violence in prison and reduced recidve.

Asge Okay, So that on that topic, where does Idaho stand here?

I take it there no North Dakota right that.

They're no North Dakota.

I haven't actually followed Idaho specifically, but they're somewhere in the middle.

In the United States, there are harsher prison systems than easier, as you can imagine.

Florida and Texas are very very harsh prison systems.

I think Idaho is closer to them than to North Dakota, but I don't actually know the details of the Idaho system itself.

Yeah, I find it hard to compare Norway to an American prison system, only because I think the crime here is more intense with gang.

I don't know Norway, but I can't imagine Norway having a subways where people are getting shushed in or I can't imagine Norway having a Chicago downtown South Side of Chicago kind of crime because once again, I don't know Norway, but I don't know if they're like a ganglan and high violence people, So I can't see what their prison system would be like.

Well, you know, all of these questions get more complicated when you go into details.

Like you mentioned gangs.

Gangs are complicated and very varied phenomena.

Some people are committed gang bangers for life and they're into the drug trade and all that kind of thing.

There are people like that.

Some people join a gang for protection because they're afraid of being beaten, rape robbed and such when they're in prison, so they join the gang basically for protection in the prison.

Now, when those people are given an opportunity, and certainly when they go free of prison, they're not any longer connected to gangs.

They grow up, they get out of that kind of crime and that kind of culture.

So there's a very mixed bunch of people involved in the crimes, in crime and in prison culture.

So in prison, yes, and some states are more gang filled than others, and the gangs have a major effect, for instance, on the recreation yard.

You always have to go in American prisons, you have to go stand by the people of your own race, because if trouble breaks out and you're among a different race, you're going to get beaten first and possibly worse.

Yeah, you know, And I think that's why your point earlier was so good, because you know, you almost look at it like, if he thinks it's bad in solitary confinement, if he was in general population, he'd be he'd be fighting for his life or nervous about his life, probably twenty three hours a day.

Does he get is he allowed his parents to visit at all?

I don't know.

I don't know that part of it.

I don't know when when it's in solitary confinement.

I mean, maybe you can can let us know.

I don't know what kind of rights they have As for as visitation, I don't know.

Visiting is significantly reduced in solitary confinement.

You know, it's the duty, it's the duty of correction officers and correctional staff and administration to provide a safe place for people to do their court ordered sentence.

That is how the system works.

There's a duty there with someone like your guy he needs special protection.

He doesn't necessarily need protective custody, but some very smart custody officers and administrators need to be looking at his security issues and for instance, moving him to a place where he's not in danger.

Now, He's not the only person like that.

There's lots of people.

There's a huge stigma in prison against police officers, against child molesters.

Those people need to be protected.

And so what prisons do, and they're very smart about this, the classification officers.

They figure out a way to keep the people separate from those who might harm them.

That needs to be done.

I'm not going light on that, however, you don't need isolation to do that.

Okay, And sometimes you start attach to the words special to these criminals, and it really, you know, sets off, you know, a reaction for people because they don't want them to have any special treatment.

I mean, these are the repercussions for what you did.

You know, take a guy like Diddy, so you know, he he's didn't get convicted on all these charges, so there's a chance he'll be coming out or have a light prison sense.

He's gonna be sentenced here in the next couple of months.

But he's had to be isolated when he was in prison.

And this is a guy that you know has his own galaxy when he's out.

I mean, he just he's a billionaire.

I mean, he lives life differently as access to anything at any time, doesn't have any rules essentially, So what kind of impact do you think a year in protective custody slash solitary for him?

Is he gonna come out a lot worse than he went in?

Do you think?

I mean, what have you thought about Diddy at all?

Because if he doesn't do ten twenty thirty years, he's going to do a year.

You know, it's going to be a year by the time he gets out of there.

What would people around him expect his personality or some of you know, the ramifications of how he was treated in prison and how he may have changed.

Well.

Custody officers and administrators have a lot of means to protect someone, so they can put people like they have special prisons from the federal system.

They have low custody prisons where they put police officers who are convicted of federal crimes.

Those police officers do not get hurt in prison if they were released on a maximum security yard, general population yard.

They would be hurt if anybody found out they were a police officer or a child molester.

Same thing.

Now, I want to separate protective custody from solitary confinement according to all standards, and this is the American Correctional Association, the National Commission on Correctional Healthcare, the United Nations International standards.

Protection should mean just that you protect people from their enemies, but you do not deny them amenities or programs.

They're entitled to the same amenities and programs as everyone else in their classification level.

The fact is that, by default, because our prisons are overcrowded and budgets are diminished, people who are on protective custody are put in solitary confinement.

That is wrong.

It violates all standards and should not happen.

And when people who in that situation have sued, they've won their lawsuits and been released from solitary confinement.

There is no need for solitary confinement when we're doing protection.

Now back to Ditty or any of the people you want to specifically talk about, there are programs that can be set up for them separate from the people who would attack them and they can be kept safe, just like the police officer and the child offender.

I think two things will happen with Diddy.

My opinion is that Diddy, first of all, you can't compare them to that only because I think prisoners want to meet a celebrity.

I think it's kind of like the OG thing too.

People wanted to meet like OJ in prison, then they probably want to meet Ditty.

But I think Diddy, if he gets out in a year or whatever, it's going to be so thankful that he dodged the biggest bullet and he's gonna, I think, live a different type of life.

I'm a normal person.

Would do that, right, Yeah, I'm gonna do anything I can to avoid going back there exactly.

And is it like he's thinking himself, is there anything else that's going to come out?

Is there?

Am I clear?

Maybe he moves out of the country, who knows, but he dodged a bullet.

Hey, doctor Cooper's you know you've spent your career investigating this topic, talking to people that are involved in it, from prison officials to you know, inmates, the whole thing.

Say you had an.

Hour with with Coburger, and you know there'd be some value that you get out of that hour where you could maybe help prevent other potential killers from doing, you know, what they think they might want to do or something.

How would you approach that?

What would you ask him?

What would you try to get out of him?

Because he's not a stupid person, he's educated and he's you know, for him to go through with what he did, you know, he's got some other issues that you're trained to handle.

So what would your what would your approach be, what would you try to learn?

Well, when I do this work, which I call forensic psychiatry, I base my work on what are called referral questions.

That is, attorneys who are doing the legal procedure.

It might be an insanity defense, It might be a competency evaluation.

It might be a habeas corpus lawsuit, which is that the person is being punished in an unacceptable way and that needs to change.

They give me questions, and the questions are going to be I'm doing I'll do a psychiatric examination as a comprehensive psychiatric examination, and then I'll relate to the questions.

For instance, they might say to me, and this is very mandatory for parole boards and compassionate release.

If released or if sent to a lower level of security prison, would this person pose a severe risk of harm to others?

So there's a referral question.

When I spend time with an individual like him, I'm looking for the answer to that question, and I might just ask him the question, are you dangerous if you went out on a maximum security yard?

Do you imagine there will be trouble?

And he'd probably say yeah, I think I'd be attacked, all right, So we have to deal with that issue as a psychiatrist.

There's a limited amount of help I can give the correction people about that.

I can do risk assessment.

For instance, people who have previously committed horrible crimes are more at risk for doing that again, same as true of self harm and suicide, and I can give opinions about that.

There's some very smart classification people in prison and they know how to decide whether some one is safe or not, so that in a lot of instances where people are killed in prison, if I'm in some way asked to look into it, what I find is that those very smart people did not do their job and they missed the risk that was blatant and obvious.

Colberger probably would love to be interviewed with someone with a high intellect and probably Kel Berkeley and get a little solitary, intelligent individual getting his head.

Speaking of huge crime stories with people involved in them that have their last name start with k What if you had a chance to interview this gentleman over here, Kato Kalin, you know, spend a little time with your psychiatric background.

Doctor Cooper's, I got to say I'm not allowed on couches because people think I might stay.

I'm not allowed on couches, So I have to tell it up front right now.

Doctor Cooper's, you could have a field day.

This might take months of examination.

I think we'd be frenzy immediately.

I think we would have a delightful interview.

Oh I agree.

I think that you two keep making a mistake.

If I can respectfully point this out, and that is, in order to investigate an issue that you're interested in talking about, you take the extreme case.

The extreme case is not representative.

So you've got someone who's committed horrible acts, including murder or rape or whatever, and you say, well, what about this guy, he's horrible.

Well, the sensibility we all have is we agree this is horrible.

We don't have any sympathy for this individual.

But what I'm interested in is how do we do criminal justice in the United States?

Now?

We have over two million people in prison or detention.

They're not all murderers, In fact, most are not.

Most are there for non violent crimes.

And if we take the most highness offender and then we generalize from that, we're going to have everybody locked up in solitary confinement.

My research is about what would be wrong with that.

So we've got two million people in solitary confinement, what's going to happen?

We are going to breed disability and lack of compassion and lack of social skills to such a degree that everybody that gets out of prison will be dangerous.

That is the opposite of what I believe criminal justice should be about.

People commit crimes on average when they're young, they're in their teens or early twenties.

All of the research shows that the proclivity to commit crimes and violence goes down somewhere after the mid twenties.

We have them in prison, punishing them for crimes they committed early in their life.

Shouldn't we be trying to rehabilitate, and I'm talking about two million people.

I'm not talking about the individuals you're.

And that's a very good point you make.

It's a very good point.

But Cato and I you know, this is an entertainment show, so we have to go with what the important stories are that people are interested.

That's why we wanted to talk about Coburger.

I think be a great another episode to talk to you about bigger picture, right and even the financial commitment it would take to make these types of changes in the prison system because the federal government, state governments have to be aligned on this and they have to make it a priority.

But that's a time for another day.

That's why we really want to get to the Coburger and just find out what kind of living hell he's going through in that Idaho prison right now.

Yeah, it's a great point.

I'd like to find out if you're in touch with anybody that actually has been parole, that you've met before a while in prison, and if you have contact with them now if they're out of prison.

I think that's just another story that I'm sure you do right.

Well, See, I agree, and I have many people like that.

I know many people who are formerly incarcerated, some of whom I helped be released by writing a fair psychiatric report for their parole board or compassionate release.

I think you too, are doing a disservice to journalism and to our culture by focusing on very high profile, extreme criminals.

And here let me let me explain what the diservices.

We are in the middle of a cultural war right now.

We have a president who is sending someone who has no criminal background, the man from Maryland to South Sudan, where I guarantee you the conditions in prison do not meet standards for American prisons.

They veer more towards torture, and in order to make the public except the president's move to send him and a lot of other people who have not committed crimes and are undocumented, but they're not illegal because they have some green card or something, and the President wants to send them all to horrible torture chambers.

The precondition for doing that is to get the public to think what the President told us, immigrants from Mexico are rapists and murderers.

Don't you agree?

No, I don't agree.

The people the research shows that people coming in from Mexico are actually decent citizens who do work and support the American economy.

That's the truth.

He wants to create a false scenario that we've got all these murderers and rapists in vating.

Now, when you singularly focus on extreme cases of people who have committed awful murderers or sexual abuse, what you're doing is fostering his stigmatization of immigrants for insance.

Well, okay, and I take that.

I respect your opinion.

Okay.

Now, one thing we try to do is not turn this into a political show.

Okay.

We are a true crime show that we talk about the topics that people want to talk about.

So I respect your opinion one hundred percent.

But we're not journalists.

I'm not trying to be a journalist.

So I don't want to ever want to take that responsibility of being a journalist where we have an entertainment, true crime, pop culture show.

Now I could combat that statement that you said, what about the woman from the Ukraine who just came to the United States and was just stabbed to death?

I mean, we're both referring to things that fall through the cracks, right, we both We can't fix this whole issue with a debate with an argument, and we can agree to have, you know, different interpretations of things, and that's fine.

But I think there's two sides of this.

One isn't totally right and the other one isn't totally wrong.

There's ways to work together on different opinions and come to hopefully a conclusion that benefits everybody in the long term.

So I respect your opinion, no problem.

But we're not journalists.

Are you a journalist?

I was a paper boy.

That's the closest I've been to a journalist.

That's it delivering papers in Wisconsin in the winter.

That's the closest to journalism.

But I I here you and I respect that, And of course what we want, we have to have safety first.

What we want is when someone is a high risk of one crime or another and we know them, we know that we have to do something to protect the public.

That is absolutely a given.

And I think we can all agree with that for sure.

But then that has an effect back on how criminal justice is.

The policies and the practices occur, and I think we have to look at both of them.

And all I'm saying is we should not take the extreme and unique case and then use that to justify one or another correctional approach.

And that makes sense.

And you know what, you come at this from a totally different angle.

Forty years in academics at the highest level.

We're performers, we're content guys.

Right, We're agitators on some at least I am right, but it informed opinions.

That is what I try to deliver.

But hey, how about how about we continue this conversation some other time.

I would love to, and you and I can really put a strategy together.

Some things that we can discuss, you know that I think would really benefit our audience as far as like to validate and honor the work that you've done, right, and then to figure out how some of it could be implemented and where changes could actually happen.

And by that time when you do it again, we'll have so much more news will have happened with what you're talking about right now, and we'll know more about the story.

And I think talking about Garcia, uh and uh yeah, we're gonna we're gonna find out.

Sure, you know, in a month's time, how much is going to change from this moment from a month today.

And I gotta tell you, doctor Cooper's I appreciate you pushing back when you feel necessary.

So good.

Now, that's what I want our guest to bring, right.

I don't want you to just thinking, hey, I gotta, you know, conform to something here.

So I appreciate that.

So I thought this was a great conversation and really really congratulations on a phenomenal career.

Don't stop.

You're doing so much good, right, And it was an honor to meet you, and thank you.

I know our audience really appreciates you being on here and sharing this.

And I think there's more ground to cover with you.

I really do, so, yeah, a lot more.

Well, thank you, and I appreciate that.

I appreciate your work, and I appreciate this is a very fair and honest conversation.

Can I mention a book that I have.

Absolutely, and we'll also put a.

You know, it's we'll pump this up.

Tell us.

I have a new book.

It's a collaboration.

It's called Ending Isolation colon the Case Against Solitary Confinement.

It's by Pluto Press, and there are four authors.

I'm one, but two of the authors are currently in prison, and thirty six current prisoners have contributed stories that have gone into the book, so it's coming out right now, can be ordered.

That's awesome, Ending isolation, okay, and Amazon, you can go anywhere and do.

Amazon of the We're gonna put the link up.

We're gonna show a cover that If you can send me a cover, great, If not, I'll find it.

We'll put it in the We'll put it in the description for this episode.

And I'll make you one promise next time we have a conversation on an episode, I'm gonna have bought and read that book, okay, because I think it's a fascinating topic.

I love how you have a you know, uh, you know, you guys co wrote this thing.

You have people on the inside that are living it, and you guys have studied it academically.

So fantastic.

Okay, thank you, thank you so much.

Great to meet you, doc.

Ye see, a great and fair discussion.

I appreciate it.

You got it, really appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

All Right, that's a good show.

I love it.

I love it that.

I like it.

It's fair and honest, and you know what, there was a like you said, the pushback, But the pushback is it's needed in it, and it's Uh, you know, you have an opinion.

I have an opinion.

Doctor Cooper's has an opinion.

And it's good that people can talk about this without you know, we see things on uh with the real time with Bill Maher or anything there's they're both sides and people end up hating sometimes, right, Yeah.

You can't just you know, grind, you know, dig in and and not be fun.

This is how you can actually have real conversations.

So I'm glad we were able to do that.

And I think this is a good example of just have some respect, you know, and everybody's gonna agree on everything, but I think we all, you know, ultimately want the same outcome.

Safety, safety for everybody involved.

We're going to continue this conversation with another great guest, and Kato, I know, you know you got excited when I told you who's going to join us.

This is Paul Moral and we're gonna bring in.

Now.

We can't show his face because he works for Fox as contributor and in his contract, really Fox has number one DIBs on all video content with him.

So we're gonna put up a headshot of Paul, but we're not gonna miss one bit of his incredible expertise and insight from working the streets of New York.

Is one of the top law enforcement guys ever for thirty years.

So wait, can you see us?

Because I have a great hair day.

Oh yeah, well, well what's the benefit of seeing Hey, hey, Paul, can you see Kato's hair?

Yeah?

Can you believe is that a crime?

Is that hair a misdemeanor or a felon?

I could see Kato's hair without this link from New York.

It's it's you know what, yes, space They're doing space X around my head right now.

They're gonna do it because in the International station, it's gonna bring Russia, America and Ukraine together.

If it's gonna save the weak, you know what.

Yeah, it's about time my jell could do that.

Hey, if anybody can do it, it's Kato Klein Man like peace and harmony.

All right.

I'm looking forward to the next part of the conversation because I think, Paul, you're probably aligned a little bit more with the way Cato and I think maybe a lot of our audience as well.

A Coburger in prison.

You're a lot of great reporting on it.

I saw one of the interviews he had a couple of weeks ago.

You've segued so well into this media role.

Congratulations and your We love that.

We love OG cops.

Man Tom Lang is one of our close friends.

You know, all the work he's done out here in La we we we love bringing on great cops.

But let's talk about your perspective of what Coburger is complaining about and what he's going through.

Cato made a great point when we talked to doctor Cooper's that hell, they might be saving his life by keeping in solitary, But do you think he's got it even worse than solitary, that than other inmates who have to endure the same thing.

What what are you hearing on the ground as far as what he's going through.

Well, I don't think that solitary is any harder on him than it is on anybody else.

In fact, I would opine, and it's the reverse, because he was such a solitary guy as it is, he was so internalized.

He seemed to live in his own in his own head so much.

I'm not sure in prison, in solitary his life is really going to change all that much from what it had been and what it was devolving to I would have that having him in solitary is probably saving him a lot of grief.

Guys that are in jail for a long time.

It's a rough prison he's in, and guys that are in jail for a long time, your currency is respect and notoriety.

That's why you get serial killers who have been convicted on four homicides, five homicides, whatever it is, and then all of a sudden they start spouting off in Netflix specials or something that they actually killed forty five because that's your status, because you really don't have a whole lot else to live for other than this idea of I'm rising to the top of the criminal hierarchy.

So to hit him, beat him up, you know, torture him, potentially even kill him.

You know, look at why he bulger.

You know, that's the kind of thing that gains you status in prison.

So they very well maybe in fact saving his life.

But one thing we do have to recognize is that it is very difficult to keep somebody quarantined away for a long long time.

And he's a relatively young man.

He just hit thirty, and that's expensive, you know, solitary is expensive.

He gets twenty three hours he's under supermax conditions, twenty three hours in to sell an hour out, somebody has to watch him, he has to be monitored, and then somebody has to walk with him, usually at least two guards when he gets.

His hour out.

All of that's very resource intensive.

They don't like it, and generally, unless it's supermax in a regular prison, eventually eventually they cycle you into the GP as they call it, general population, and that's when his troubles may really start.

So he's in there twenty three hours, he gets one hour for exercise or whatever it is.

Are those twenty three hours of whatever he wants to do in his cell?

Can he sleep for thirteen hours or is there something always going on?

Or is it just twenty three hours by himself and monitored the latter.

You know, it's not like they set up camp activities for this guy.

You know, you're in there, you're staring at the walls.

That's part of the punishment.

Now you do get depending on the prison.

And I'm you know, the Wharton is very reticent here, by the way, because they had those leaks, so very very tough to get information.

Right now, it'll cool down at some point, we'll get a little bit of a better picture of what he does all day.

Right now, he seems to be doing the let me, you know, sort of jail house lawyer thing.

Let me learn all the rules, let me see where I can complain, file complaints about the.

Food stuff like that, and you know they believe it or not.

That kind of thing.

Works in a case like his, because it's very very public.

The warden doesn't want to be embarrassed.

The authorities, they don't want the grief.

My understanding from a source is that there is a very fulsome investigation going on into how that video leaked of him in the cell, and so there'll be repercussions there.

That's the kind of thing that embarrasses web is running the command, so they don't want that.

So believe it or not.

Complaining about food and conditions.

Will work for him for a while.

All of this stuff's going to sunset when everybody goes back to their lives.

At some point, everybody forgets his name, and as I said, that's likely when he's going to really start to have some trouble.

Yeah, in that video, you can see his hands were all read.

He's got ocd's constantly washing his hands but yeah, the fact that the lead people are pissed about that.

All right, we had our other guests.

You know, he's coming from a totally different perspective than you.

Academic studies, classrooms, lectures, papers.

Right, you were on the stage.

I was a college professor for a while.

Yeah.

Right, so I got over it.

Yeah, yeah, a difer perspection.

You know, Coburger.

It's so fascinating to try to get inside this guy's head, because.

You know, he wanted to pull off the perfect murder.

I mean, I think we can safely say that he's never said it, but I mean, look, everybody around him has alluded to the fact that that was what he was trying to do.

He failed.

Okay, so what do you think is going through his head a guy that thinks he's going to pull off the perfect murder?

Is there any way they can rationalize or visualize how bad prison can be?

Do you think maybe he thought, if I got caught, I can handle it, or is it such a rude awakening for these people that are already delusional on some level but also intelligent when they actually get inside that jail door slammed and they're on their own twenty three hours a day.

Yeah, I think that, you know, he is probably doing some rationalization here.

He probably is telling himself that, you know what, if I had just not done that one little thing, I wouldn't have been caught his level of arrogance.

One of the things I did get from being out there so much interviewing the cops.

I just did this interview with Fox Nation on you know, with the cheap of police rather on Fox Nation, the streaming service, and he gave me a lot of stuff, and other sources out there and you know, they're just essentially saying his arrogance is palpable.

It's what you see is what you get.

He doesn't talk much.

When he did talk to other people, he tended to be very very condescending.

He was always the smartest guy in the room.

His responses were always a little bit off because he was very very internalized.

They weren't sure is he hearing me?

Is he not hearing me?

So God only.

Knows what he tells himself in jail, but strikes me from what I hear, is the kind of guy who's never gonna quite admit that he was not as smart as he thought he was.

And people will come up against police departments and investigatory agencies in general.

You know, can you get away with crime, Sure a lot of people do.

But that said, when you when the resources of the government and a real agency really sort of gather themselves, you are really really gonna need a lot of breaks to defeat it, because institutionally, the these agencies are very smart.

You know, you can say what you want about individual investigators, individual costs, but institutionally, almost every law enforcement agency in the country is either or has access to a sister agency that will help, you know, reaching up to the state police or something.

And once you're going up against that collective wisdom of investigations people that do this stuff all day, every day, it's very, very tough to defeat them on their home turf.

You're going into their home field to beat them, and they take it personally.

They'll throw every resource they can.

And I think this case is a good example of how when you really get across a law enforcement agency.

Moscow is a very small PD, they got less than thirty guys, and yet nonetheless they pull this thing off with good management, good investigation when they have very little to go on.

Okay, So, having said that, do you think that the I think it was maybe you would some story.

I did hear that possibly he forgot about the sheet.

He realized he forgot the sheet, that he was going to drive back if he had another time, that that was something that was going through his mind.

Do you think if he got that, you think he commitsed the perfect crime?

Or do you think the technology now with the pings and everything else that you guys know and I'm not privy to, do you think that's what screwed up the perfect crime for him?

The oh she got him?

Yeah, No, they would have got him without the DNA.

And it's a good question, and that's the question that I put to the chief because it's the one everybody wants to know.

Was that slight touch DNA really so dispositive?

And I agree with the Chief.

I think they would have got there.

Not a question becomes would you have gotten a conviction?

Which can be a very very different thing, And I think they would have because they would have been a big evidential re fight.

How much can you bring in about what's on point where that a judge would have sensed, Look, we got to bring all of this evidence in this guy's going to do it again.

We got to take this guy out.

And so when you start going into his online stuff, which again he wasn't quite as good at it as he thought he was, you start to see the fact that he was looking to buy another knife.

You're looking at the fact that he had been searching even though he used a VPN.

These things are defeatable.

They found all kinds of.

Searches relative to serial killers.

Who's investigating the case.

When he realized that they were trying to look in the area for him, his searches the day before they rolled him up and called him were our psychopaths paranoid because he was trying to figure out.

He knew he's a psychopath, and he's trying to figure out you know, am I just being paranoid or am I starting to feel the heat?

I wonder if they had actually spotted him.

Chief would never have told me this, and he hadn't gone out to Pennsylvania.

But actually wonder if he spotted some surveillance because it was a difficult place to surveil.

It was in a gated community and they had eyes on my God tells me they probably took over a neighbor's house, or they had some cameras up or something, but he might have spotted something and that's why he was asking himself, Am I being paranoid?

So ultimately I do think they get there.

The two campus cops in Pullman, Washington who identified his car are unsung heroes in this thing.

That's the node.

I think that's the route that they would have got to him through ultimately, along with the phone pings and everything else, and you know, in the car, and I think ultimately they put it together.

And then when you really focus on the guy and starts scraping at his life, it all starts to come together even without that DNA.

But ultimately I think the other unsung hero here is Kaylee, because I think Kaylee fought him, and that's why the sheet was left at the scene.

Yeah, you know, and you said psychopath and Tom, we've talked about this before.

I think the video of him being pulled over by the Indiana State Troopers, how calm he is after You've got to be thinking, you see the sirens behind you.

You got to be thinking, this guy, I'm caught, I'm caught, and he comes across.

He comes across as oh, sorry, officer, I was a you know, I didn't know whatever it was, my tail lights, whatever it is, but how he came across, you would just think another day for him, coure.

And in fact, there were two car stops by two different agencies.

And I gotta say, Kato, I was very, very skeptical of that all along.

Here.

I know how task forces work.

I was in one for almost two decades, and you know, Feds and state they don't always get along.

Sometimes people do things independently, and I was always of the opinion that there was no way that was a coincidence, and that somebody down the chain called a friend of a friend in a state police in Indiana and said, there's another guy.

There's somebody else in that car, and we can't take the risk he's going to kill that person.

We don't know who it is.

Pull the car of eyeball to see what we can idea who it is.

But it turns out after talking to the chief that in fact, and you know, people say, oh, I don't believe in coincidences.

It's very cinematic line, right, It sounds very film noir.

People like saying that on the air, but it's wrong.

Conincidence has happened all the time.

And you end up chasing the wrong thing if you're doing an investigation.

And this is a very good example.

I was pretty sure that there's no way that could have been an accident, but the chief clarified they did not have Brian Coberger's name when he went mobile with.

His father across the country.

Because I always said, how did they let him leave?

If you really thought it was him?

Grab his garbage?

Match the DNA grabbed a car, do a sneak and peek.

If you don't want to let him know, get up, warn't on the car.

How did they're not do any of that?

Well, it's there you go.

Yeah.

In the December nineteenth was when the DNA on the knife sheath was identified.

You know, you wonder you think the FBI and Moscow Police were working so in sync and Idaho State Police that maybe the FBI knew something and they could have given the heads up this pull this car over, let's see what's inside.

I don't you know, Like I said, I did think that.

And there was reporting from another outlet.

I won't say I don't like to sort of pile on other outlets, but there was another outlet, And there's been some books written and stuff that claimed that the FBI in fact were tailing him and lost him.

Now I can just tell you again from having done a lot of investigations, it wouldn't have gone that way.

If they had his name, they would have grabbed the garbage.

They would have come up with a ruse.

If they were gonna lose them, or thought they were going to lose them, they would have done some stuff with the car.

They can you can do a lot of stuff with tracking these days, with phones with cars.

There's no way they're going to lose him on some cross country trip.

It's not happening.

And in fact, they're not gonna let him leave town.

So you know, that never rang true to me, but it did explain why.

The two cars stops has occurred.

And so I always had a sort of, you know, be careful and and hedge a little bit because I couldn't really explain that.

But it turns out it was a massive, uh coincidence.

And as Cato as you say, we got lucky because if I'm sitting where he is and there's two car stops in their eyeballing me, and then I don't get a summons, and either one of them see that was what was so strange.

They pulled them up, pulled them over for the same thing, two different agencies for closely following the car in front of them, and all of a sudden you got your second stop again.

No summons, just a warning.

You got to say to yourself, you're on to me.

I'm him right, drive right to all hair, I hug my father, I buy a one way ticket to Brazil.

And that's the end of it.

I wonder if on the road trip they stopped at a cracker barrel.

Yeah, changed, they didn't realize this.

Is in cracker barrel.

This updated Denny's.

Hey, Paul, do you know do you know the name of the man on the on the barrel?

Let me see let me see your.

Your heartbea heartbreak Hank or something.

I don't know.

I want to see your I read I saw on this stuff.

He'll belly Harry.

Carl Cracker Herschel.

That's right.

I knew it was an age pop culture.

Chops are the leg We should have been another promp for He never should have brought up that cracker ver.

Hey, Paul, you you mentioned the Idaho prison that he's in is tough.

I think people make the mistake and thinking, oh Idaho, man Boise cord Lane, are there really any hardened criminals there?

Exactly?

But but I mean, you've been there.

We were going to go to Idaho.

If the child happened, we didn't go.

You've been there.

What's that prison?

Like?

What are there some hardcore dudes in there making his life right?

There?

Are?

I mean, look, any prison can be rough, and it's a state prison, so it's everybody in Idaho.

And my understanding is that they got some real gangs going there.

And you know, you're gonna have, potentially in an area like that, you're gonna have some of these far right gangs, you know, sort of neo Nazi gangs.

You're gonna have Ariyan Brotherhood, that kind of a gang, and you'll have a smattering of everything else.

I'm sure there's going to be some of the Latin gangs, Hispanic gangs, Arian Brotherhood is going to be a force there.

But no matter what gang it is and what the power structure in the place is, just number two things.

Number One, the guards don't run a prison.

That's the misconception that everybody has.

The guards are there to keep the prisoners in that's all they're really there for.

The prisoners run the prison, and that's why the power structure in the hierarchy is such a battle in a prison because that's all they got and it's really left to them.

And so that's bad news for him because it's just ubiquitous across the prison population that a guy who takes out young women, with the exception of a guy who takes out young kids, that's not a popular demographic inside prison.

You know, it's interesting that prisoners run the prison.

It's not that it's not even it's not even the warden.

It's the prisoners inside.

It's their school that they're not allowed out of school, and they have everything inside that school and it's run by the prisoners.

That's, you know, somewhat of scary thought that you That's why a person has got to make a commitment to some group for protection, Am I right?

Yes, exactly.

The think of it.

Prisons are criminal justice condoms.

That's think of them that way.

It's just it's it's designed to keep them in there and nothing to get out.

That's all there is to it.

The warden wakes up every day saying how do I make sure I don't get an escape You know, there's all the other stuff that happens, the administrative stuff, you know, the parole hearings, taking people in and out.

Yeah, all that crap happens.

But the real thing for them to do is they keep everybody in.

If nobody escapes, the warden's at a good day.

Yeah, you know.

The other route of waitning for him is going to be when people don't really talk about him anymore.

You look at Louis Louis Manjonie, right, who's in the prison right now in Brooklyn.

You know, the same one as Diddy.

You know, people are going to start forgetting about these guys when we're not in the public eye all the time.

How about man Joni?

What's uh, what's the word out there as far as like what kind of conditions he's facing in Is he in solitary or is that died down?

My understanding is he's not in solitary.

He's a waiting trial.

So I don't remember he was over here in They closed MCC for a while here, which was the prison in Manhattan.

They're renovating it, so everybody old federal prisons are over in Brooklyn.

He's in federal prison, which is usually a little bit better.

But it's the same facility that had Diddy, Glaine Maxwell.

They're all in there.

At one point it does a Manngion and Glane overlapped just a little little bit and then they shipped her route.

Did he was in my understanding, last I heard anyway, they had in Cross Pats.

He did have a roommate because at one point the roommate got out and gave an interview.

Reading the interview, and he actually seems to have adjusted pretty well.

Like I said, it's federal prison.

And again, especially after the Epstein thing, you know, it's the same system.

It's the federal system.

You can't have a Manngion didn't kill himself episode.

You know, they can't have that again.

So you can bet that he's well observed, savelled.

They're keeping an eye on him.

He's got a prison job already, which is a perk.

It's a perk to work in prison.

They get they have him doing something in the in the kitchen or something, keep himself busy.

But you know, so far from my understanding, nobody has ft with him.

Look, he shot a guy who on in some perverted areas of our culture.

Is it's justified in their minds and you know, and it's not young women, and it's not a kid.

He doesn't have the vulnerabilities that you know that maybe Coburger does have.

But that said, he's a young, good looking kid and he goes in d G pop, you know, general population.

At some point after a conviction, you're gonna have another series of problems.

He might need that condom.

That's right, he's gonna have some romantic.

And the thing is, but the other thing is too that this guy shot shot a guy.

It's horrible.

It's on video.

And then and they personally shot his kids, and it's just I don't understand how anybody can take the side of a killer.

It's on video.

There's how can you have compassion for?

Yeah?

But I mean the way some of the generation thinks though that he's the villain, the guy that was killed.

I said, is it certain media that makes certain people a villain or I mean, or actually makes them the hero?

Certain you know, the way that the media has divided.

They buy into the into the most facile narratives.

And you know, the narrative here is because he worked for an insurance company and he was at an executive level that he must have deserved it.

And you know, the way I think about these things is I say to myself, Okay, all of the millennials and gen Z.

Characters who are advocating for this.

Being a good move, well, every damn one of them would be happy if they had a parent father who had that same executive job taking down seven figures and had them on a three hundred thousand dollars a year allowance, let's say, essentially a similar line lifestyle to.

What Mangione had.

Because Mangione came up with money and never seems to have had a real job in his life, they'd all be happy to take that money and look the other way and never complain about the fact that their father was an insurance executive.

So it's all very situational and convenient.

And I think it's one of the things that makes Mangione's actions allegedly because he's not convicted yet, but it makes his alleged actions so venal and revolting.

It's like Kamala Harris, a step daughter who's all broken up over climate change.

You see, peipll are so delusional.

They have no sense of reality, they have no sense of gratitude.

They just think the constant victims.

They just have a warp mentality.

One thing I'm worried about is if your socialist communist mayor candidate actually wins in New York City, what is it, NYPD?

Your buddy's still in the forest, you know, at the highest levels there, how worried about what's going to happen to crime if this guy actually wins.

And are you worried that he could win this?

I mean it looks like he could.

It could something happened here and save the day.

Something could happen, you know.

The zero EASTA is here, as we call them.

Zerimandani's supporters are very, very energized because New York is expensive and we're coming off of twelve years of horrific mismanagement here in town.

We had eight years of bilde Blasio as the mayor, who was like left of Karl Marx, and then we had Eric Adams, who is really just I'm sorry and incompetent.

We were hoping as a former cop and somebody who said a lot of the right things.

We all gave him a chance, and he just surrounded himself with people who were begging to be indicted, and in fact, many of them have been, and that's why he's polling even behind the Republican in a very heavy blue town.

He's polling behind Curtis Sliva, who I think, actually not that he's assembling his team, would be a good mayor.

But that said, I do think that Mumdanni is defeatable.

What he got in the Democratic primary is the ceiling.

He's never going to get any more votes in that and you got about four to fifty five hundred final count.

Generally, that's not quite enough.

That's not what you win.

With in New York.

The problem is it's splitting in the vote.

It's say, right now, with Thunderdome of egos, you got Sleeway, You've got Cuomo, and you got as I said, the incumbent atoms.

None of them want to drop out, all of them think they have a path to victory.

Consequently, they split the vote and then we get Mom Donnie.

And all you have to do is look at Chicago the mismanagement going on under that guy Johnson.

You see all kinds of major businesses decamping Citadel, Tyson Foods, Boeing that employee, thousands of people, damaging the tax base.

And Johnson's even been forced to admit that I'm sorry, Chicago has reached a point in over return.

I don't know what that means.

Are they going to declare bankruptcy?

But New York could easily go down the same path.

And it's just so infuriating as you get to a certain age.

I lived through this in the seventies in the eighties.

New York in the seventies had to go bankrupt because essentially.

Because they had a layoff cops.

It had never happened for because it's the same hyper left nonsense, and everybody leaves.

If you can leave, you leave.

And here's the problem.

Just to close the loop.

New York has always been about money.

Cities are about things.

You know, Washington's about government.

New York's about money.

You know, LA's about Hollywood.

New York's money doesn't have to be here anymore because the stock market, the Wall Street characters.

I know guys who run Wall Street hedge funds now from the side of a mountain in Vermont.

You can run a hedge fund now from the International Space Station.

Because of the Internet.

The savior is no longer here.

What is left in New York is the lifestyle, the culture, et cetera.

And when the city looks like hell and nobody wants to come here and you've lost that, well then why come.

And that's why everybody's going to Texas, Florida, to Carolinas, et cetera.

It's toy this time, many many times before, as I always will with the homelessness here.

That I was driving on the ten Freeway in Los Angeles where there's a sign that said, if you lived here, you'd be homeless by now.

So it's all it's everywhere, it's it's it's but but it is like that, Paul, And Uh, I've lived here now, I'm from Wisconsin, but coming here for over forty years now, I've just seen the decline and it's horrific.

It's horrific.

What is going on?

Uh, just in Los Angeles alone.

Yeah, we have a case study here.

It's called Karen Bass and it's it's it's bad because the bee is silent.

Yeah, because they don't give a damn about the people that live in the city.

They care about themselves.

That's it.

And as soon as people wake up, as.

Soon as intelligent people wake up and realize how much they don't care about you, not only do they not care.

They don't even look at you as as a human in some regards, You're just you're.

Just you know.

I think, I think what we're finding out, I think with more and more we're finding about Newsom and his wife, we're going to find out exactly where the hundred million went for the fire.

Uh, We're gonna find out if there's cheating that's been going on and taking money.

So investigations.

As you probably know, Paul Uh from being a contributor in Fox and seeing you out numbered everywhere.

Something I think is going to happen to Newsome and it's not going to be good.

You know, I hadn't really chased that down.

I will tell you this.

The ecosystem on the left of funding is such a complex web.

It's just this arabesque spider web that is so incomprehensible that even experienced financial investigators despair of it and throw their hands up.

And it's not because there's a mastermind, which should be clear on that Russia.

Limba used to make this point, used to say, they don't have to be told.

Don't go looking for an email from DNC Central that sets it all up.

They know what to do they're all operating off the same sheet of music, and so they all know what to do to further the left.

This cause, the hyper progressive cause, and what it has led to is a series of interlocking NGOs, super packs, not for profits, charities, all of which are blurred.

There were five oh one C threes or five O one C fours, which allows you to make the contributions.

They donate to each each other.

The money comes back with the exact same amount ten minutes later, but it's washed.

It's all money laundering, and it's starting to finally finally catch the attention of some of the right.

It's, like I said, it's not sexy, and which is unfortunate because the non sexy stuff is where they beat us.

They beat us in that area with the funding and the way they move money, because a lot of it government money.

All right, look at the nonsense that just went on at the EPA, with billions going to things that are stewarded by somebody like Stacy Abrams, who I wouldn't trust to run a falafel stand.

And we just find out now that there's a several other billions going out to Biden cronies that they finally just put a stop on the in the foreign policy world, and it's just for them to take care of their buddies.

The other area that they beat us in is the back deeal legislation.

The way they got a hold of New York is they saw their opportunity after Defloyd incident in the Summer of Love of twenty twenty and they get that into the nitty gritty and it's the jerrymandering.

It's the local legislation stuff that allows them to gain old of the states, of the state legislatures, of the governorships, and then ultimately the House of Representatives.

The Right has been very slow to twig to all of this because it happens under the radar.

And as I said, it's not sexy.

You need the guys in the suits.

You need to be encounters with their appocuses and slide rules to keep an eye on this crap because this is where we lose and it's where we beat them.

I hate to say this, but what the Right needs is more lawyers.

Yeah, well, we're waking up and that's a good thing.

Hey, this has been great.

And by the way, everything I say was allegedly of what's going on.

There's there's there's yeah, there we are.

There's investigations going on.

Yeah.

So hey Paul, we'd love to have you on again.

I mean, this is great.

We you know, we had all the big crimes.

But man, you know you're you're doing a great job.

And I just love topping to tap into more of your backstories and and and some of the crimes you covered because I'm just fascinated about it, especially in New York.

Talking to Paul, I feel like I'm in New York right now.

Yeah.

Yeah, So keep up the great work, Keep up the great work.

Are you guys going?

Are you guys going to crime Con?

No, we were thinking about.

I was trying to get Cato as a speaker.

I got to get him as a speaker.

I'm gonna speak next week up in Carmel.

I'm a detective Association and police.

I can't wait.

And uh, it's going to be really exciting.

I'm gonna try to get a whole speak engagement going on and just you know, a strength of.

Beautiful not the one.

Yeah yeah, Tom, And crime Con is in Nashville.

It's in Denver, Denver this year.

Yeah.

Yeah, So if you head out to l a give us a call.

We'll just tell our viewers.

You know what you look like outside your head shot?

All right, got got the good look right here in the den right, all they're seeing is your head shot.

I'm gonna yeah, yeah, I'm gonna a clause.

I got so many books.

I love that involved reach your contract and see if that we could actually get you on camera.

Yet more, lawyer.

He looks great.

Hey, Paul, thanks so much.

Man.

We'll talk to you again in the future for sure.

Okay, it's say hi to Emily.

Was fun, guys, say to Emily because I did her show.

Okay, all right, appreciate it.

Oh pleasure, thank you?

All right, so fantastic.

What a show.

Yeah, that's a great show.

We covered all angles.

Stone and turn off comput Paul, No, we'll remind them.

Don't turn off your computer.

Paul.

Hey, by the way, starting this membership, you're seeing the announcements on social media.

You're sitting on a community page.

This thing is launched.

We got three levels, Cato, I put three levels together.

Our highest level is going to be insane.

How would you like to jump on a zoom call or a riverside with me and Kato after a show where we break it down, right, you can ask us questions that we're gonna be look at the three levels of our membership because they're great something for everybody, and you know, with that type of support, we're gonna be able to keep doing shows like this twice a week, Yes, twice a week.

I'll do it.

Do I want to see a zoom er after the show with us talking to someone?

Do you have any you know how much his hair Jael costs.

I mean that's a freaking big line on them expense.

Yeah.

I don't know when this show is going to go up or not.

I don't know the data this going up.

But if you want to see me, if folks want to actually come up meet me, I'll be at the huge Burbank autograph show September fifth and sixth.

Okay, So this is gonna definitely drop before then, but write it down on your calendar September fifth and sixth in Burbank where.

At the Burbank Airport Marriott.

Okay.

And it's it's an incredible amount of I get celebs that'll be there, and it's gonna be so much fun.

I'm just reading it and they picked me to be on Fox Paull Fox to do a whole segment segment of a sit down interview of who's gonna be there and all that September.

First, so amazing, Hey, bring in more information some of the other names.

We'll keep promoting this because we'll have a couple more episodes before that.

September fifth and six.

Go see the k trick Connelle and Dylon.

They don't know Ma there.

It's gonna be kind of exciting for aourage.

Are they gonna be there?

Yeah?

Oh that's awesome.

Okay, great, excuse me, Okay, excellent episode two, great guests, great topic.

Coburger.

Sorry, Bro, I know it's a little rough for you by now, but I don't have any sympathy for you man none.

Great great show and doctor Cooper's I love that we have the understanding misunderstanding understanding, but we could come come to peace and hopefully does our show again.

Yeah, okay, So fill up the comments.

Follow Kato and me on social media.

Check out our memberships.

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Sign up for Aura.

It's worth it for the one and only Kato, Katrain, Caitlin, I'm Tom Zenner, and we will see you very very soon