Two legendary detective.

He used nothing but a sexual deviate.

He did everything for sexual purposes.

The family knew something was there, really intent to kill Kendany.

If they acquiesced to his commands, they lived.

If they didn't, they were killed.

And he killed the obstacle, which was the.

Men people get killed in my kids are in that house.

We filed fourteen counts murder.

There was one case that stood on its own.

I'm curious, here's this guy who thinks he's going to get away with a perfect murder.

He hired the two guys and they prosecuted him, but they never got the two guys that actually killed him.

How do you not go into the house after crime scene and not find the body.

In the first day, we saw cases the old fashioned way, three s's, Scotch, snitches, and shoe leather.

Two legendary detectives with the stories and the history and their perspective that comes along with it.

We're talking legends.

Gil Correo and Tom Lang in studio today.

Welcome everybody to Tom's Ender Scandal.

I'm Tom Zenner.

This is my co host on one Degree Escape End Lists.

The one and only Kato klin I am Kato thirty years ago.

Thirty one years ago, Kato met Tom Lang through the Oj Simpson saga.

Hard to believe.

It's the thirty year anniversary of that.

Gil Correo, along with his partner Frank Silano, tracked down Richard Ramirez and the Nightstalker, two of the biggest crimes ever, Oj Ramirez.

They're here today, the guys that were in the middle of it.

It's so exciting to have you here.

And they have something in common too, both stars the Netflix series.

Yes, I was in one of those with Tom Lang.

Yep.

Now I'm sitting in the front seat with Tom.

Last time I was in the backseat.

So things gotten a lot better for me.

Look it up for trade.

I can't believe this because it's like a part two the best part two show ever.

Yeah, yeah, go back and watch our previous previous episodes with Gil and Tom.

It was unbelievable.

We also had Tom for one a couple of weeks ago.

Make sure you watch that.

In all the episodes we have, it's always a treat to have you in here.

You know, Cato mentioned it.

You guys are yet recognized.

You go through airport, it's people are going to know who you are because these were very successful, very successful docuseries on Netflix, The Nightstalker, rich Ardmers and of course the OJ One.

But you guys have been involved in other cases too, done tons of other interviews.

What's life like?

Can you make money as an ex superstar detective?

I mean, I'm sure it's not huge bucks.

But do some residuals come in for these things?

I mean, you guys made those shows.

Do you negotiate?

You have an agent?

How does it work with mine?

You know, they a lot of production companies.

A lot of people have dreams, you know, and they pipe dream they want to do this, they want to do that.

Nothing ever gets done, and I never signed anything.

I don't do anything when I the realities are a family friend of mine.

He was a deputy and he got injured and I knew his uncle's they were cops.

So he was now writing.

He was writing with the program called Chicago PD, which is still on TV.

He doesn't write for them anymore.

And he went from there to the Mayans.

He was writing for the Mayans and one of his co writers I named Tim Walsh, and Brian called me up and he says, you know, Gil, if you look at TV today.

He says, Mexicans are on there and Hispanics are.

They're all thugs, gangbangers, dopers, killers, murderers.

You know, there's nobody out there to look up to you.

And I've been talking about you, you know, and you were successful in what you did, and he says, I think there's something there.

Would you have dinner?

So I went to a nice dinner place for him.

When I had dinner and I came home, the wife said, well, how to go?

I said, well, I met a new friend, had a good steak, had some wine.

It was a great night.

What they want to do?

You know what he wanted?

I told them honestly, I don't give two shits about television, you know, I just have fun in life.

And that was the end of it.

And then about a year later, Tim Walsh called me up and he says, hey, would you be uh willing to go out to dinner?

So I went out to meet him.

I went had dinner with him and uh Tiller Russell.

Yeah, and Tiller Russell.

I don't know what to expect when they talk about producer, old gray haired guys with buns ands.

And I met him and he was a young looking guy and shook hands and hey, brother, how's it going.

He talked, It was fun, it was a great conversation.

He said, okay, uh, Tim's right, I want to do this, and would you be willing to do a documentary on a night songer and I had enjoyed his company.

I said, yeah, I'm in.

He says, okay.

He says, well, here's what we're going to do.

He says, here's how I want to write the story.

Here's what I want to I said, I don't care.

Don't tell me.

You're the professional.

And he said, okay, well, when it comes time for editing, we'll call you in.

You can be part of the eddy.

I said, no, you guys are professionals.

You just let me know when it drops and I'll watch it.

And he said, okay, I'll have our attorneys call you up.

And I said, you don't have to get your attorneys right away.

You know.

Look, hey, well I promise you I won't do anything else there it is.

Here's my guarantee.

We shook hands, and then later on when I said when it comes time for attorneys, I said, you'll have one.

And I didn't have an agent, didn't have an attorney.

Frank who had gone through this stuff before Salerno, he had an attorney.

And so one of the guys from the Netflix ide said, tell you what, uh, we really like it.

You know, you can get an attorney or I'll just give you the same contract that Frank's attorney's gotten for him.

You know, I have to work attorney.

Yeah, that's what he said.

Save the attorneys, done dil and and that's how that's how it came about.

I had nothing to do with it.

I just went went along with it, and they got what they what they wanted.

I just I realized one thing to having Gil on the show now a few times, nobody has more dinners than him.

Every dinner has wine.

We had a great breakfast with wine.

That was awesome.

That's fantastic.

You you deserve it.

And you know Tiller, whether you know it or not, because he was part of the man Hunt series of O.

J.

Simpson on Metflix, He's been involved in all the big ones with Michael Rodutsky, our friend.

Another Milwaukee is good.

It's really good.

Yeah, and get hit up all the time, Tom.

I mean, you know, I've been approached a lot of times.

I don't I'm not out there.

I don't want to be out there.

I'm not an actor.

Years ago, this producer came to me and said, I'm going to do a series of one of these histories mysteries things.

So we did a four part series Lizzie Borden, John Dillinger, Billy the Kid, and there was one other.

They were old time serial killers.

Actually, if you look at Billy the Kid and then this type of thing, the old Jack the Ripper was another one of the old western says.

Anyway, we did these series and they said, we want you to be a homicide cop today and tell us how you would handle the case back then, like Lizzie bordon we would all way back to Fall River.

It's kind of a neat production, but he kept cutting and saying, listen, this is what we need.

We need this.

I said, I'm not an actor.

I don't like acting.

I don't want anything to do with it.

And my wife was there for a couple of them we did.

She says, yeah, you got to put yourself into it.

It says it's not me.

I can't do it.

So those we did, all those and they were pretty successful and they look good.

But ever since then, people want this and they want that, and you got to put yourself into it.

It's just not my personality.

Why do I do these things?

Well, if you are well known, you're going to see more bullshit about yourself than reality.

And I wasn't going to take that.

To this day, we have people lying about Simpson, very well known attorney on Fox.

Everybody likes Fox.

It's right wing, it's just that the other But they hired a far left guy and I met Alan Dershowitz, who they have now owned and probably gets paid a lot of money to spout whatever he spouts.

He still lies about evidence in the Simpson case.

There was no blood planted in the Simpson case.

There was never any evidence of that.

In fact, the evidence was just to the contrary.

Nobody at Fox will confront him, So I'm pissed at Fox.

I don't do Fox anymore because of that.

Wow.

Bottom line is the reason I do any of this stuff.

The books and everything else are to put right what is not, what is wrong.

But people have lied about, made up stories and everything else.

That's why I do all of these things.

To clean the air, That's why I do these things.

This is the way it really happened.

You know you mentioned other murders.

You know Lizzie Bordon, Tom it was the famous it was Lizzie Bordon had an X, gave her husband forty wax.

The whole thing.

So it's different murders.

Do you had Dillinger who got killed in Wisconsin and or actually the cabin big shoot Yeah, the big shootout in Wisconsin, that was his resort.

What are other.

Crimes that have happened that you guys might have opinion on?

Speaking of that that you had other things like John Benney we got that's an older case.

I'm sure you're familiar with John Bney Ramsey.

Unsolved thirty years later, which is unbelievable.

It's legally it's unsolved.

I won't mention this guy very well known.

You could probably figure out who this is a very well known criminalist once to give me an opinion on who did this?

And I don't know.

I'm not familiar with the evidence.

But they said he thinks the brother was involved.

I don't know why he said this.

This is a very well known, well known criminalist you may have heard of, in a very well known case.

Cato who has this opinion which I value?

I don't care for what the way he am himself in this particular case, but he had some good opinions on that because he saw the evidence.

I can't make any call on something anything about the evidence.

Well, and I'll just add this to this.

I mean, obviously CBS felt strongly enough about the evidence to do a show on prime time on a Saturday night and and with that same theory, and they ended up getting sued big time.

And the backstory to this is Cato had a show that he had sold to CBS.

But it was on the They loved it and it was good.

Yeah, and it was going to happen that day.

Everything everything because of that lawsuit, it changed how CBS was doing the programming and.

Did they did.

I didn't have a count, but yes, they very much loved what I had something Actually, no, no, because of what hell.

The follow was a.

Huge fallof I spoke with this unknown criminalist criminalists that my colleague speaks about, and I'd lectured with him before, we'd done some stuff together.

And I was on I was in trial, I think I was in trial and he was out here looking at uh.

He was in my office and said, what are you doing here?

And he said, well, I'm here looking at this case, and it was one of my old cases.

He says, I just found up Becau because I was not working at my then partner.

I was in trial, so she was working at the family that deceived.

The family had big bucks, so they hired him to come over and look at the case, look and see what we had done, see if there was anything we had missed.

And he looked at me.

He says, I just realized that the end that you were part of this case.

Nice.

I told him stop.

You know he's on it.

He's done this, he's done everything.

Everything on here has done.

Correct If if I don't known he was on and beginning to save your money, I wouldn't have come out here.

He said about the OJ case that he wanted because it was a defense that called him out here, and he wanted to speak to the unknown female prosecutor on the OJ case and wanted to say, hey, if you ask these questions, this is what they're going to ask me.

And he told me.

He says, she didn't want to talk to me because he had been called by the defense.

She wanted nothing to do with me.

Wouldn't listen to me.

Had she listened to me, things wouldn't have been as slanted, wouldn't have looked as bad as they did for the prosecution side for that case.

And I saw the documentary that he did because that one they got suited over, and he sure gives a They sure give a compelling case for what they got sued over, you know, for the for the kid.

And I trust this unnamed unknown doctor.

You know, I consider him as wow friend.

We even went out to dinner.

And he showed up in your office.

So you saw and heard some of this stuff.

Yeah, wow, Yeah.

You know, this one is so complex if you think about it.

A this poor girl deserves justice and she never got it, and she was paraded around like this little beauty queen.

He told me about.

We talked about the OJ case and the case that I was.

We didn't talk about got it, Okay, got it, got it?

But you know, I'll just put a bow on that one, Tom, based on your whatever you know theory or how are you wanted to find it.

I mean, the parents we had to know.

They had to know.

I'm just gonna say, obviously the family knew something that we're never gonna know.

And then they took a tremendous amount of heat, thinking it might have been them, right, and the mom Patsy dies of cancer, John still alive.

He has to ask yourself, was there really intent to kill John to day?

Probably not?

Maybe not maybe someone or accident, But how do you have.

An accident with that, with the type of knot that they had in the rope?

Well, all I know is that the crime scene, you know, you Tom hit on it earlier, maybe on this one of his previous interviews that I've heard were small town exactly.

Police departments don't handle not used to handling homicides, and they're not used what it takes the expertise from day one with everybody that was going through that crime scene and how they missed and how the neighbor and this guy went down there, mister Ramsey went down there and fount of body.

Uh, it was unconscionable, you know, So that was screwed up from the beginning.

And then it's got to make you think, right from the very beginning.

One of the first things I thought of, why do they both need separate attorneys, the husband and the wife?

You know that that struck me is why?

And the ransom note there's just so many elements of that one that man we knew the.

Tread And how do you not go into the house after a crime scene and not find the body in the first day.

How do you not go over every inch of the basement where it was hitting it?

Just that didn't make sense.

Was it not there before or they just never looked in that one room.

I think they're just so unsophisticated.

I think they're just how you miss it?

I don't know how.

I watched the Balloon Boy documentary on Netflix.

Remember Balloon Boy, like two thousand and two, where the balloon took off the kid was allegedly in It was a huge story back then.

But the police there, and it was also in Colorado, believe it or not, they searched the house three times and said the boy wasn't in there, which made them believe that it was in the balloon flying around and he was actually in the attic.

So my thought all along too, because you're starting behind the eight ball times ten.

If they trample the crime scene and they and they contaminate the evidence, you can never use it right.

And then they're so busy covered in their ass because they knew they were in over their head.

So then it was a pr game almost for them.

There's always an answer, it's just sometimes we don't get it.

It's an imperfect world.

It's a messy world.

The side is MESSI you're not going to get your answers.

But again there's that not one case it can't be solved, and again you look at this isolated the family has got to know something.

The answer is with the family.

Yeah, but we're not going to get it for all the reasons we've discussed, you.

Know, and the only people living now is John and the sun.

Right.

Yeah, So, kil I'm curious because we just went through the Coburger case where here's this guy who thinks he's going to go away with the perfect murder, plans it out takes the criminology classes.

You know, we've had Howard Blumonter Show a couple of time as time Masters.

Just you know, this guy is just a sick twist to the nth degree.

But he literally, from what it sounds, I thought that he was going to plan and carry out this perfect murder, right that he could get away with it.

When you were chasing Richard Ramirez and you know by murder number nine eight nine seven to eight nine.

He has to know you're on their tail.

Your names are in the paper.

You know you're connecting dots here.

And you spent time with him after he was arrested, and you watched every single day of the trial in person.

What was his motivation?

Was it a game for him?

Oh?

I harken back, and once again that's purely speculative.

But what I learned in college, he was nothing but a sexual debate.

He did everything for sexual purposes.

He wasn't a burglary, he wasn't a hype.

He did use cocaine, he did use weed, but it was sexually motivated driven.

You know, he sat there and wanted something.

He went out said about it.

He did what he said he was going to do.

He did not want to be known as a crazy.

The judge oftt a psychiatrist to go interview, and Richard threw him out after thirty minutes.

He wanted, he wanted everybody to know he did what he wanted to do and did.

It for a reason, And he didn't care about killing human life.

He just it didn't.

It meant nothing to him.

Just no, just person I kill.

I get if they acquiesced to his commands they lived.

If they didn't, they were killed, and he killed the obstacle, which was the men that was the.

Right first, and then he'd be in there a little bit longer time.

You you know, your your methodology is, you know, you've talked about it, like, you don't go in there with guns and blazing.

I mean, it's a psychological game for you, and you know what you're doing.

How many times when you're interrogating somebody, investigating somebody, they think they're going to outsmart you because you see that all the time.

They think they can outsmart the lieutenant detective.

I like that, Yeah, yeah, I think that interview that people talk about, Uh, like the first one with what you're talking about right away, right when he got back from Chicago.

Which was not admit it was not part of the trial.

That was dumb, which.

Is if there's eleven inconsistent statements in there, why they never put it on?

I mean, that's evidence.

Why would you not put something?

I never understood that it's so obvious.

Well, again, we talked about this too.

It's going to be cops on trial.

With that much evidence, you've got to go after the cops.

Marcia knew that I had more problems with her on direct than Johnny Cochran on Cross and I was on the stand for eight days.

Johnny didn't bother me at all.

I know exactly where he was coming from.

We used to joke about it.

And when we take a break or something, he and Carl Douglas, we joke about it.

Have a cup of coffee.

Now you got me on this one.

No, you didn't give me.

I know where he was coming from.

That's amazing.

Marcia, my prosecutor, had no idea what the hell she was going to ask next.

I have a question of my colleague.

He just hit on the store.

Did you did you find that you got along better with defense attorneys than the prosecution on this case?

Any on any of them.

There were times, yes, I got along better with defense attorneys than I did with the prosecution side, with the exception of Phil Help.

Phil Helping was great.

And Phil Helping didn't trust me around to you know, he used to always get to me.

He's always pointing his finger at me, and in the trial I gave him a wooden hand with a finger like that.

But and he was so good to the cops, unless you were a lazy cop.

You know, you'd have your ass, But I found myself getting along.

You know, prosecutors for the most part were win win, win at any cost.

They didn't give a shit about cops.

They didn't give a shit about surviving victims and witnesses.

Defense attorneys had to play both sides because you know, they they have a job to do.

But yet they didn't want to alienate us.

And so I got along better with defense trains.

But don't just think that's part of the job of a defense frone to make sure, like.

You nothing wrong with that.

Defense attorneys are dumb.

They're smart.

Why would you piss off the guy that's going to be a witness?

You don't want to make them mad.

They're not dumb.

And so that's true in a lot of cases.

I was especially true and Simpson for for whatever reason, which was a joke.

This whole thing never should have been a live television There should never been.

There was only two people gagged during the whole thing.

Who was gagged not the defense attorneys, not the prosecutor, Me and my partner.

Why would you gag us?

I drank too much.

I could have been in Cato's the only person that's been accused of being hostile by Marshall Clarks.

She's the only person on this planet that's called you hostile, hostile witness, Cato.

King, that occurred.

Why the hell somebody right in the middle of this, you're going to declare them a hostile witness.

Even if you were hostile or not, it didn't matter.

I would not say that in open court.

That's ridiculous.

I mean when that happened, I know it was over and then once you wouldn't put on I got three type written pages of evidence.

They should have been put on.

Would have convicted anybody.

She didn't put any of that on because she knew cops on trial.

You know you you know every tell in a criminal You've seen it all, both of you.

When you first met with oj when he got back from Chicago.

Was there any one thing more than anything else that stood out to you because the bloody finger everything?

Oh my kids?

What am my kids?

So?

What happened?

Two people get killed with my my kids are in that house?

Never brought up?

No, I brought it up, talked to him on the phone.

I thought that'd be the first thing.

It was not a suspect initially until the glove turned up it just before the glove.

I was on the phone with them.

Nothing about the kids.

All right, I'll be on the next flight.

Well we'll pick you up.

No, no, I'll get there.

I'll get there.

Okay, I'm not a damn thing about the kids.

Did he fake crying or fake emotion or anything like that?

So she paid?

He can do anything he wants.

He's It becomes obvious after a while.

Anybody like that Again, do you talk about interrogation and interview.

Last thing you're got to do is interrogate somebody like that, because he'd have walked.

I never asked this question.

Did you make the call to Chicago at the at the hilton't?

Initially No, it was Phillips, Ron Phillips.

And that was after the fact that Ron Phillips went that morning after I.

Yeah, and then he called back and said he's on his way.

That's when I talked to him.

And that's is that taped or not taped?

That was his residence, his phone.

Okay, that's interesting.

That that's the first thing.

Two young kids in his house.

Your mother was slatted with another guy, and he didn't asking how they're doing or where they are, how are my kids are my kids?

Okay, the guy.

I've got two kids, and I've got a bunch of grandkids now and they're number one.

They're my family.

I want to know what happened, my god, but the kids, Okay?

So when when?

When that happened?

I knew this guy's more than the person of interest.

And that's when you knew you weren't dealing with a real human because if you can't ask that question, something's missing your voice.

Well, yeah, you're a sociopath that they're not important to me.

Yeah, And so when you when he comes in from Chicago and all that, you already have that in your mind.

Yeah, Phil, Phil Anettter, you're kind of like.

Then, what's the next thing?

You see his fingers bloody on the left side, the left hand, but the.

Blood defensive wounded or he cut himself and he certainly didn't leave town with it, or I mean like an hour before, right, because Kato saw him an hour before and he certainly did have a bloody finger.

Then oh, we got three different stories about the bloody finger.

And then the other thing that the bag that he wanted to gravel half boon shaped gravel bag that you were going to help him with.

Yeah, you didn't say that the guy at the airport, well, all some taking stuff out of that.

Yeah.

Also, I kept going, why do they keep asking me questions about it?

Because I didn't this was an evidence yet about a cut finger.

I don't think that came out right away.

So they're asking me.

I'm going, why his hand?

Yeah, his hand was okay, So I didn't know anything.

I keme going.

They keep asking questions like twelve questions about his hand?

Did you notice his hand?

His hand?

And so then it now it makes obviously no Gil.

You know, it is such a contrast because you know, the oj trial was larger than life, and then it had its ebbs and flows, and then you could kind of see where it was going south.

Right.

Was there ever a shot or a chance that Ramirez wouldn't be convicted in that trial?

Could something dramatic have happened where he would have got impossible?

No, I don't.

I don't think.

So we had a very solid case.

There was one case that stood on its own, and so the defense said, okay, well we're gonna go ahead and ask for a severance.

We'll start with that case, finish that when then we'll go on to the remaining thirteen.

What does mean is that they were gon to separate from we filed fourteen counts murder.

There's one case that stood on its own, so they were going to go ahead and got it.

Asked the judge, thirteen are lumped on its own.

One on phone, and we'll be ready.

Let's start with the number one.

And so the judge listened to them and he said, okay, well, we'll render your decision tomorrow.

And he says, however, I'm telling you you have to be ready tomorrow.

If you say you're ready and I grant your motion, well then we start on that case.

If I don't, you have to be ready on all of them.

They said, we understand.

He said okay.

So went home.

Next day, helping comes into court and he says, okay, uh straight helping.

You know, we've we've got the severance motion and the court is inclined to grant their severance motion.

Uh, do you have anything to say on behalf the people?

He said, yes, your honor.

He says, uh, people who like to dismiss that case the interests of justice.

And he said are you sure?

He says, yes, sir, we want to dismiss it in the interested justice.

That way is thrown out.

We don't have to worry about it anymore.

We've got thirteen cases, thirteen more murders ready to go.

And that one was a circumstantial case.

That was we knew we had it, but that was the only one that we couldn't link to the other ones.

And so he looked at he says, I grant their motion to dismiss.

We're done.

We're ready to let's start on the other ones.

And he said, oh, your honor, Well wait, we weren't ready.

He said, hey, I told you to be ready.

You'd be back here in quarter at one o'clock, one thirty afternoon and we start trial.

So they dismissed that one.

Then we went.

So the other ones they were solid.

Yeah, yeah, they were that.

You look at Rameires, what's not the hate, good looking guy, the athlete, famous person.

Two years after the riots.

Reality, you know it was if it was fourth and three, I'd still give the ball to Oj.

Especially going through an airport.

Yeah, you know, I.

I heard you talking during a break to Tom and you mentioned it.

Tom.

You know, I just deal with three s's.

The three s's first of all, whatever the three s's and what did it mean?

I was told when I first got there, being the youngest guy in homicide bureau, and I really thought that they were going to dump all over me because I hadn't paid my dues, as I say, and it was just the opposite.

They ensured me that I had a reputation to a poll of the bureau and we'd all work together.

I better ask questions because if I didn't and I did something on my own and screwed it up, that'd be gone the next day.

And he says, up here we saw cases of the old fashioned way three s's, scotch, snitches, and shoe leather.

That's how you saw My asses are completely off?

Then what did you think it was?

Shampoo?

Campoo.

No, it's good advice, though, right, and it works.

Yeah.

I still don't like scotch.

But I probably don't hear that today.

No, no, they don't do it.

Oh lord, they don't do it.

That's correct.

Come on, No, no, no, heck, no big changes.

Yeah.

So you were you were in the courtroom for every day of the Ramirez trial, weren't you.

How long was that?

Uh?

Probably about three months?

Four months?

Okay, So you got a first hand view of the groupies and these women that would show up his little fan club.

Did anything about that surprise you or had you seen everything at that point?

No, some of them did sprite me.

They had the devil worshipers, Satan worshipers show up.

We had a lot of high school a lot of field trips going there.

You know, they pass them through and they let them see part of the part thing.

A lot of attorneys go through there to see what was going on.

And I can remember one day specifically that Richard did the same thing every day.

He walked in the courtroom and he'd scan the scan the courtroom and find out where the pretty women were what he liked.

And then he turned around and he faced the front of the courtroom and then come for recess, he'd stand up and he'd turned around.

He'd start staring at the ones, and they knew who we wanted to look at.

There were these two attorneys came in with their briefcases, dressed to the tents.

They were dropped dead, gorgeous, not working on the case, just not working on the case, just watching and they went in therey bailiff comes over and he says Gill.

They want you on the phone over to the desk with the bailiff's at and I'm talking on a phone and now they're going to take a recess.

And Richard gets up and walks out and he's looking right at the girls and the one sitting on the end looks at him, no, blows him a kiss and spread her legs.

Come on, spread them open.

I want back and told Frank, I said, hooked me up.

I want to see if it works for me.

You know, So those people.

Sharon Stone was an attorney.

Crazy, that is crazy.

Sure there was an attorney though, or just dressed to the teas looking like you.

No, No, they were attorney's, no doubt in my mind they were attorneys.

You know, is it crazy?

The one thing that you said that motivated him, that like propelled him to this life.

It was sex and he's going to prison and never having it again.

There was a female that every day during prelium she was there.

Her name was she was a Filipino young lady and her name was Bernadette.

And matter of fact, the lady that did the sketch artist.

Because they cameras weren't allowed, and yeah, cameras weren't allowed in there then, and so she she actually did a sketch artist.

Bernadette.

She was there every day.

So after the trial I asked Rich, I said, hey, Rich, whatever whatever happened to Bernadette.

She stopped coming around.

She kept trying to call me, trying to talk him into Catholicism, come back to christian An.

He come back and be Catholic.

I forget this, he said, And I kept telling her, no, I can't, he says.

Last time I heard, I talked to her and she was doing Porno.

So from Christianity to Porno.

Whether it happened or not, that's what that's what.

It was.

Was he schizophrenic or was he just we don't know.

He's I talked to him and he talked to me just normal.

This could be more articulate than any other murder suspect there verse walking.

Yeah.

I actually a long time ago, before I got married, dated a girl that was schizophrenic.

And I toltally, that's great, that makes four of us.

That was just gil.

I said, that work up, that's great for all four of us.

You know the crazy thing about Ramirez, you know he you know, he did have that look right with the high cheek bones where if he wasn't a psychopath killer, you know, maybe he could have been a model or something.

But the thing that brought him down was the teeth by leaving the fanprint on the card for the dentist.

By the time we went to the yeah, they did.

By the time we finished trial a County Dennis went up there and testified.

He's quite proud of what he had done to Richard's teeth.

He made him good and.

Wow, a little too late, Tom, Were you when you were changing Tom?

Tom Lang?

The stories that are attached to his career unbelievable.

As you were chasing John Holmes the porn star through I believe it was Coral Gables, Florida, on the Wonderland or on the Wonderland case, were you thinking of converting him to Catholicism?

Was there any hope?

Could you?

Uh?

It really came up.

But that's a true story.

How did that happen?

Where you're working on this case here in LA one of the most brutal crime cases there are ever where they said get your galoshes on as you go in to record the crime scene for the first time ever in LA and then you're running through Miami trying to catch Holmes tell us that story well a.

Little and well, but he of course was was a suspect, and we found his pomp print on the bedrailing of Lanius is one of the victim's skull who had been fragmented.

Actually, and we find out that Holmes was terrified of Ron Launius, who's a psychopath himself, also good for a couple of murders.

And now he's a murder victim.

So what was he doing in his room?

Wellawnius would never have allowed him in his room, yet we got his pomprint on the that railing above the body is if one would secure themselves here as they're coming down on them on the skull with a pint.

Of course, later on we find out we got the husband wife privilege.

That comes up again.

Sharon, his wife, tells us, Yeah, he came home that morning, he bled all over.

I had real bath for him.

But she gives me all of the story, but we can't use it.

She not got testify against him.

So we know Dan Willie is a suspect.

Why would these killers let him live?

And thus he took part in the killings, So there's no question.

We had a solid warn everything else, but when things got tight, he took off.

I was working with a guy who had a thought on this, and that was with Holmes's girlfriend at the time.

Her family lived up in Oregon.

So let's go talk to the family, where we find out his girlfriend had a brother who didn't like Holmes.

One thing led to another, and we wanted to know where John was, and the kid finally rolled over.

He said, well, he's down in Florida.

So we got a couple of phone numbers that he'd used that they had on their phone bill.

One thing led to another, and we figure he's down in Florida.

So we went down to Florida and we found out where he was staying at a hotel.

He dyed his hair, dyed his beard.

He'd grown a longer beard.

He painted his car, the car that they took off with forgot to change the plates.

I guess this motel was under renovation, and he was then hired as a part time worker.

So we're going to steak on the hotel.

We had MIAMIPD.

We tied in with them.

I had eight different people surrounding the hotel when he showed up, had a warrant, so we waited for him.

We set up across the street and it went two minutes later, comes John Dowls from one of the rooms.

So I got on the radio, said we've got him.

I'm going to go over and get him.

So I went over there and I got my two inch and I got up next to the door, and he had left this party next to his room, and he laid down in his bed.

He was lying there and he left the door open.

The air wasn't working, it was it was very warm outside as he gets in Florida.

So I just speaked around the corner and I said, John, put your fucking hands where I can see him.

Oh, said, what took you so long?

You know, I know you have both shit.

You said when you said you brought your two inch, giant says, excuse me?

Got uh.

We roll over and one thing led to another, and then he's he's joking around until the following day he got a little more solemn, and you know, he was going back.

But we felt we'd had we'd had a case, and we did.

There's no question in my mind that uh, he was part of the group that killed everybody in that house.

We weren't able to use it for a lot of reasons.

But again the celebrity thing came in and for some reason, jury's in LA.

They like celebrities.

You know, they had the Blake case, and there's so many others that you can look at.

Uh, they just don't want to want to convict.

And if you put the cops on trial, you get to downtown Jerry two days after Rodney King, you got one of the Roade cops who pleads the fifth.

Come on, this is good, be easy, right, we don't care if he did it or not.

Basically, that's what they're saying.

And there's nothing any case go back bey on this.

The first thing you're can to look for in a murdered investigation is investigator is something exculpatory, so you can deal with that.

You got to know what the negative stuff is to deal with it before you get the good stuff, the inculpatory evidence.

This is a rare case.

I'd say a ten percenter that did not have anything exculpatory.

Everything was inculpatory in that case of a substance in nature.

There's nothing that says like we've got a bloody footwear impression that size ten can't be his twelve.

That's why I got the shoes.

I took the shoes to size him, not because they had blood on them.

Everything was inculpatory in this case.

There is nothing inculpatory.

Inculpatory because he wears sized twelve.

We had size ten with a bloody footwear impression at the scene.

That's exculpatory.

That's enough to say, no, man, hell, he could have done this.

That's why the shoes were so important.

But nothing exculpatory.

Uh that that means something.

So why they came around Obviously cops on trial and then the former thing just knocked it out of the part.

So he had Ojo was an actor, I guess you could say Holmes.

And then you mentioned earlier of Frank.

Christie.

What's that?

What's that?

Time?

He was an old, old actor.

He was in a lot of organized crime.

Uh, mafia movies, mafia movies.

It was a big one back on the.

Good Guy, Godfather, Casino, Godfather, Irishman.

Oh nuts Let's it was another big one.

Sopranos, Sopranos TV show, No Donnie Brosco.

That's the Vlachi papers that there was a.

Couple of where he was a bar right and he he took a lot of this into his personal life.

He was kind of a wise ass and with the wrong guy because he was doing a young.

Woman who is La by the way La case.

He lived in the Hollywood Hills.

He was doing a girlfriend of an organized crime figure the name of Friedburg.

Wrong, wrong thing to do.

So he hired this group of thugs to kill Frank and they were waiting for him and up to his place up off of Coal Water Canyon, up off of Mulholland, and it was lying in wait and they blasted him a couple of times.

This was a shotgun.

Then the third guy was waiting outside and got him with the thirty eight is He's coming, ran round out the driveway to his house.

One thing led to another.

It took a couple of years put together.

We did a back the thing with America's most wanted to when we identified the three suspects and they had fled up to Seattle.

It was a murder for hire, a classic murder for hire, and we hated up getting him up there and they were all convicted of that.

One of them rolled over he was dying of cancer, with a dying declaration of something that doesn't often happen, Uh, the suspect and you give it with the what the law calls a dying declaration.

There has to be certain things in place, but of course he has to die.

So we got a dying declaration from one of the suspects who had to be the driver.

And with that dying declaration, we're able to to convict them.

All on that.

Dude, It's funny.

I heard you talking about the shoes the brewm Mollie or Oja, the size twelve talking about sculpatory eridence.

You were chasing shoes too, wasn't it also size twelve that Ramia has had the ideas?

Yeah, the ones that got dumped in the Yeah, it sounds like you came over the gold door.

Yeah, little did you know you'd be checked.

A little frustrated all that with that?

Oh my god, I heard that and I said, yeah, I thought we had a dad.

Not at a press conference.

Please right, a presscott where she's just like gravy training and trying to just grab the gloriact like a hero.

Is there any scenario where LA sheriffs could have had the OJ case, You guys could have had ramiras a nightstalker.

Is a where it happened crazy.

That's crazy, changes lives and just everything.

That's they had one or two of the nice stock.

Yeah, you had out in Sun Valley you had one.

Uh, Northeast Division had one.

You could there.

There was one June of eighty four and we're working the case.

I get a phone call from a homicide cop out there and he says, and we got live prints, but Richard didn't have prints on file.

They weren't automated then, and so I said, well, just hold on to them when we get our suspect, you know, and they can bring it all together.

And they did.

Jenny Bencollen June of twenty eighth and nineteen eighty four, that was your case out there, Sun Valley was your case.

They were an attemp kidnapping and foot division.

And that's about it again.

That was the big buggy boo back then, the lack of communication and it causes a lot of problems.

And they I wondered if they still have that problem.

Maybe you meet with a cup of coffee in the morning, let's have breakfast and talk, or tonight, let's have a couple of drinks.

Whether if the drinking thing comes in again.

You'd be surprised what gets accomplished with a couple of few.

Only get to take a break, well.

Break, it's emotional break, but you exchange information.

It's not official, but then it's everything is official.

You get a lot done doing that, and that's their communication.

There's not enough of that, quite frankly.

And I wonder about that good night.

And and it just depends on who who's looking at it.

I remember, uh, I worked a triple homicide in south south Central and we were out there and we're being followed by one of these cop programs, like Cops or something like that.

They were with us all night and.

They're with you and say that they have a separate car.

Yeah, they're in a separate car.

They're just out there filming everything.

And there were mic cops and they're doing this, and the producer quit, you know, because the local residents were upset.

They started yelling and screaming because the bodies were out there.

Although they were covered, they were out there.

They didn't realize we had to wait till the corner's office, you know, we're doing the crime scene.

So they're upset.

They go, so worked it all night long.

I go straight from a triple homicide that night, being up all night, I drive over to East LA Station where I donned.

I took off my suit and tie and donned a Santa Claus outfit because I was scheduled to be in a parade that day.

So I go out there.

I'm in a parade and I'm riding on a float and I'm waving all the kids, and it was really something special.

And this cop program they follow me out there, they're doing.

They see me another day in a Santa Claus outfit, riding on a fire engine, going to an elementary school, interacting with all the little kids.

And then one day we're done.

I mean, we've been burning the midnight oil and what now.

I said, well, let's go down We're not going to be down here in downtown La now.

We're going to be over a watering hole on the east side, so it's not that far to drive.

So they said, do you mind if we go down there?

And I said, you can go down there.

I said, but you can stay for one drink and then that's it.

You guys got to go.

We just because they won't be the same.

So they go out there, they film it.

They air the program and they did a very positive light even the one drink that they were out of there very positive publicly.

One of our lieutenants committed suicide.

Didn't get promoted a captain.

I guess, I don't know what he he'd committed suicide.

So the head of psychological services for our department, the shrinks, comes up to me and I'd done some team teaching.

She says, how you doing.

I said, I'm doing and good, It's just good.

She said, how are the guys from homicide doing over there?

I said, they're handling it, you know, or you sedid dealing with death and this is part of the job.

And says, I saw your TV show the other day, and I said, oh, what'd you think?

She said, well, I saw you drinking.

I saw you in a bar, and all of a sudden, I just like, you're putting a flame right up my ass.

And I just looked at her and I said, you know, did you see me at the Triple homicide working all night and go straight from there to put on a Santa Claus outfit for kids and being a parade?

I said, did you notice that I was in a fire engine going to an elementary school for kids.

I said, to just see when we did the search, warrants said, get all this stuff out?

I said, or is all you saw was me going to a bar?

I said, what does it take to make you people happy?

And I turn around, I walked away.

You know, so some people see it good things, some people don't.

Yeah, they're just wired that way.

But that would be insulting.

Give me a break, a job.

It was insulting.

Yeah, she's lucky.

You would easy on her.

I got you know, every karma has its way of coming coming back around.

That individual ended up leaving the department driving under the influence.

Oh why that is karma?

Fine, you can't let those things get to you.

And you didn't know because.

You know, I, uh, this will be my last question, but I always something that intrigued me is tim because you mentioned murder for hire.

I don't know if those are the most difficult to solve.

But there was a something that happened and you were in this area, I think both of you were.

Was the Mickey Thompson Do you remember Mickey Thompson murder races?

And they always said there were two guys on bikes, Yes, but they murdered up in a beautiful area up in.

The hills, Bradbury Estates Bradbury.

Okay, so is that by pastadenap Dwarty up in the hills over there, really beautiful home And I don't think that was ever solved or am I wrong?

It was.

They prosecuted Mickey Thompson's partner.

They prosecuted him, but they never got the two guys that actually killed him.

So the guy that guy prosecuted obviously in prison, he never never kind of told on that he held it, held it in and he.

Hired the few guys and they prosecuted him for the murder.

The guy is really incredible.

The guy that for maur department that put that case together, brilliant, brilliant.

That was your department.

That was Mark Lillienfield, brilliant investigator.

My wife and family knew that if anything ever happened to me, demand the department put him on a case, because he's one of these guys that thinks outside the box and he's a great and he doesn't let the brass anybody interfere with his cases.

A female deputy from our department got murdered and she preferred females and swe at her funeral.

He went to the wake and he told more mortician, the people that run in mortuary with Okay, when everybody's ready to go, close it, lock it up, he says, close casket, lock it up.

I'm gonna wait here.

And when he come back, he say, I want you to open it back up again.

He says, I want to see if one of the ladies here or anybody put a message inside her coffin.

And he opened him back up and bigger and shit, there was a message in there, and I'm saying, God, damn it, Mark.

And it wasn't a confession.

It was just another female friend of her saying she was going to miss her, she loved her, and so on and so forth.

He put the case together, that particular case, and he got people not only for my agency, but out side the agency tatted down.

They looked like hardcore gang bangers.

Put him in a put him in a tst bus, went up to the joint because of two suspects who he didn't have enough on he had him violated.

So they were coming down down from the joint, so he had the bus go up there.

The bus was wired and everybody on that bus was a cop and the guys came down thinking they'll open up, they'll start talking to these guys, got them, booked them over into I R.

C R Jail here, And not only did they get enough a cop out from these guys to successfully prosecute him, they also popped one of the guy's mothers for destruction of evidence.

And that's just Mark and he's the guy that put that Mickey Thompson case back then.

The guy's brilliant and last So Mickey Thompson when he did how long did that case take?

He did he break the case?

Was it years or was.

It was years because the first first team to handle it didn't they they were insufficient.

Let us say they were insufficient, and then Mark took it over.

Amazing.

Another point of interest.

You're talking about talking to people and crimes being sold and how they get sold.

Some of them are already solved to some extent.

You when you realize it, you move on.

Case in point organized crime murders, the double murder in La we had there was a guy the name of Rostrepo, Colombian here from Florida, from South Florida, and he came out with another guy from Venezuela and they were moving dope.

Well, they came to La to go to business.

The Restrepos were under a federal indictment in Florida.

They are a Columbia cartel.

This is in mid eighties, I guess.

So these two come out here and that was the wrong thing to do, because he ended up dead, tortured, wrap and tarp and dumped up up in the Dodger Stadium.

Two different locations.

We found the bodies.

There were cigarette burns, cuts, beatings, they were tortured.

Also in the bodies were several hundred dollars in cash, gold, jewelry, wristwatches, all on the body.

There's clearly a message killing.

Then they wrap them in tarp, tie that down, dumped one up right outside of Dodger Stadium, won a couple of blocks down.

So we get this thing.

We do the backgrounds and everything else, and Restreppo family is in New York and they're living on Biscayne Bay, just south of Miami.

We want to interview the family.

Well, the family is under a federal indictment.

I got to talk to us, but the father and the mother or the indictment, well, we got to try.

So it sets something up and we said, yeah, we'll talk to you.

Okay, Well, you know, we're handling the death of your son again, a gruesome murder message murder.

So he says yeah.

So we go down there and we go to this beautiful home overlooking Biscayne Bay with a view right on the bay one hundred and eighty degrees, and there's all these guys sitting around, we know, little bodyguards, the lawyers are there.

They invite us in the very courteous Can we get you something to drink?

Can we do this?

Can we do that?

Meanwhile, I'm working with the locals down there.

They've had a lot of these Columbia murders down there in South Florida.

I say that, you know, we can talk to the family.

I don't know how far we're going to get, but we'd like to know if he can do tell us what his son is doing here in LA And this we met the father.

We apologize for bothering now, we're sorry about your son.

Nothing else, but you understand, mister Stripple.

We're here to do a job and we're stand around looking at us.

We're very respectful, and we said we'd really like to know what occurred.

And I put this one in the book, he says, detectives, I appreciate what you've done, appreciate you coming here and everything else.

I love my son very much, but you have to understand business is business.

Okay, thank you, sir.

We appreciate you seeing us talking to us today.

And we walked out and we left and we got it talking because we had several meetings planned that day with the locals.

Were not going to sell this case.

The case has already been solved.

They have already taken care of the killers.

I don't know where their bodies are, but it's all done.

The message was so clear from this guy.

I'm not going to talk.

About anything, but we're never going to make a rest because they're dead too.

So you let that one's fie.

You know.

That's exactly what happened.

So just when you think you got all the stuff together, you have shit, sorry, been done.

Right.

You got to understand that you have their own form of justice, right, yeah, and it's done.

Save a few steps.

We'll do what we gotta do.

We'll go through the steps.

And the family was just business is.

Business, yeah, And that's the business they're in where that kind of stuff happens.

Yeah, well, this has been unbelievable.

Guys, maybe we'll do it again.

We'll always keep that open invitation.

This was fantastic tapping into your knowledge, your experience, your storytelling.

I know everybody loved it.

How could you not.

By the way, these two should be in a movie.

They should be a movie on their lives.

So who should play them?

Okay, that'd be a good question for our audience.

Who should play Gill?

Who should play Tom Lane?

What actors?

Maybe at Tom Sellic at his prime for Tom Lange, I'm.

Gonna go a little different ally parton.

Guys.

This is fantastic.

Thanks for making the effort.

Really appreciate.

We appreciate everything about you, guys, your career.

It's fun to talk about.

Hey, okay, Danny, I mean we can work on that, all right, cheers.

Thanks so much, guys.

Everybody I know enjoyed it.

So load us up with comments.

Follow the K Train's got a lot going on, and we will get these guys on again sometime down the road.

If they're up yep, they're making their trip up to DApp Up.

All right, So thanks, This has been unbelievable.

Three great episodes with Tom, two with Gil and Tom together and you can't do better than this for our crime stories.

It's the best there is, all right, thanks so much for watching, everybody.

I'm Tom Zentner and we will see you very very soon.