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Listeners should consult with their healthcare professionals for a specific medical advice.

Well.

Hello, I'm Amanda.

Keller and I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to.

Double A Chattery.

I'm interested to pick your brain today, Anita.

Peay, start with a nose and.

Go from there.

There's been a lot of discourse that I've seen around this new trend, as they call it, of no contact, And what I mean by that is that I guess I'm seeing more and more of it on social media around Thanksgiving in North America.

This is adults, grown humans putting boundaries between themselves and their parents and going no contact and being estranged.

Lots of discussion around narcissistic parenting, adults saying my parents were narcissistic and therefore this is why I'm having issues.

Oprah Winfrey, Mel Robbins, The Washington Post, New York Times have all done opinion pieces on this, and I thought, as we headed into Christmas, I'd like to think we're not as polarized as North America at the moment, but I wonder how it might play out in Australia.

And this is why I love doing this podcast with you, because I know that you've worked with families.

You're a very astute life observer, a very sensitive person.

I'm keen to hear your observations around this.

So do you want to hold hands and jump into the abyss?

Let's get stuck into this.

First of all, I say narcissistic or someone's a narcissist.

Do you say a nacist?

It's one more professional than the other.

Not really, I mean I think that it's I think.

You're just being up yourself a narcissistic when you say.

I am I am?

Would you would you diagnose.

Me many years ago an asia?

Yeah?

No, it's the what I find is really interesting is that this is a word that gets is getting more and more bandied.

About, overused, you think, well.

Overused, overdiagnosed, because it's it's being diagnosed by lay people who are saying, yes, my, my, you know, parents, my siblings, my whoever is a narcist or a narcissistic.

And but it's what I find is that it is it is a very peculiar specific personality disorder, and that it's often like to go and have two people diagnosed like both of your parents are narcissistic.

Is is a little you know, it is difficult, It would be difficult to kind of diagnose.

And actually you know that they would have a relationship much less be able to raise children.

Interesting that the two narcissists could have a functioning relationship to raise children, let alone all the damage they've done to their kids.

It seems a bit unlikely.

Yeah, So there's lots of theories around narcissism, and what it often looks like is that it is a personality disorder that develops basically from childhood, and there's often this outward look at me, pin a rose on me kind of thing, I'm special.

There can actually be a lot of behaviors that include things like almost manic behavior, you know, crazy buying, spreees, those kinds of things.

But they often think that they have a sense of self importance and a sense of grandiosity.

But underneath that kind of brittle shell, Amanda is but that they call this narcissistic wounding where you kind of poke them a little bit and they come out with anger, rage, often violence.

So that's actually one of the personality disorders that I work with, and it's What I find is it is a very particular diagnosis, and the way it's being bandied about I find is a little well alarming.

I guess interesting.

This is a woman I saw on socials who's very strong about what she classifies as narcissistic parents.

I don't know if she has any expertise, but does this fit the bill for you?

Narcissistic parents are not just abusive.

They literally make sure that no one will believe you, and they typically do this in five ways.

Number one is that they paint themselves the victim.

They will tell everybody that you abandon them and that they are the one that was injured, without telling everybody why you had and make such a hard decision because of the way that they treated you.

And their own actions.

The second is that they'll twist your healing into an active betrayal, so the fact that you had to set boundaries then becomes the thing that betrayed them and cause the family harm.

Number three is that the plant seeds of doubt.

They'll say things like I don't know, I think it's for mental health, or I don't know, they've just changed a lot lately, you know, it's just because they've been hanging out with so and so, or they've gone to therapy.

And then in doing all of this, they create number four, which is calling in the Flying Monkeys, where they recruit people to actively be on their side and against you, so that no matter how many times you try and share your story, nobody's gonna believe you, and everybody is gaslighting you.

Number five is that they rewrite the past.

So suddenly everything in the past that happened was beautiful and wonderful except for you.

You were the problem, and you were always the problem, and now you're just an adult who is also the problem.

Wow.

Is that just a pen in the it kid or is that a valid analysis of somebody's parents.

It's probably the way that probably every family, family's history.

What I think is interesting is that her story is you know, it culminates in point number five, where you know she's accusing her parents of rewriting the past.

I would have to say that we all do.

We all rewrite the you know, the history of our family.

And I would imagine that every child, you know, you and Cameron sometimes joke about, you know, who is your parent's favorite kind of thing, and everybody has that's you know, a different kind of perspective of what happened.

So, yes, accusing your parents.

I have rewritten the story of my childhood.

My kids have rewritten the story of my parenting.

We all do that, and I think that often, you know, traditionally, there's three roles that we have in the world in dynamics, and one is like being a victim or being a villain or a hero.

And when we rewrite this story, we often place ourselves as the hero or as or as the victim in a situation.

We rarely say I was I was the asshole, I was the villain in this.

So it's interesting.

So these adult children want their parents to reassess their own behavior, but they've placed the kids have placed themselves in the hero.

Position or in the victim position themselves.

They're saying, you know, my parents are saying that they're victims, but I'm a bigger victim, you know, like and again, I think it's just it's an interesting thing.

We always been always.

I think it's always been.

I think that the difference now is that we talk about it way more.

I think that historically, if you had family difficulties that you just didn't talk about it, it was something that you kept quiet.

It was something that you kept shamefully private, like shamefully private, I think.

And also I think we came from an era where we just accepted that everyone one's parenting was different, That my parents were different to your parents, different everyone's parents, our aunts and uncles were different, and you just accept that, Yes, that's baggage.

We've all had baggage from our parents, and that's just how that went.

And I think for most of us, that's certainly that tolerance of you know, our parents did the best with what they had at the time.

There's also, obviously there are going to be situations where parents were abusive, that they were you know, provided trauma or neglect or something towards their children, and that these children that's different to this, and I think it's important that we identify and kind of demarket those two situations.

What about this.

I'll just lead you through some of these things and bits and pieces.

I'm loving hearing your thoughts on this.

This girl, this woman is saying, this isn't about who you were, then, it's about how you're responding to me.

Now, haven't pay a strange parents.

It is not what you did, it's what you're doing actively still right now today.

Okay, I'm going to repeat this for those of you in the back.

It is not what you did twenty years ago, it is what you are doing still today.

So what she's saying is, if appearances, I was doing my best, I was busy, I was raising a family.

She's saying, I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about how you're hearing me today.

M hm.

And I think that that's fair enough.

And the question is, are you know, how are you communicating about that?

How are you because if you set up a boundary, we're set you know, where you as the child in the in that dynamic saying well, yes, it's you're still being awful, You're still being whatever you know, terrible thing that you are.

How are are you communicating that?

Or are you just kind of setting up a boundary where it's we're not going to have any further communication about this.

And and I find that that means that you're in a situation where there's no chance of resolution.

And I often think that in any like any intimate relationship, including a family, is that there's going to be situations where, if there are difficulties, you're going to have to make a bid, and you know that bid is can we talk about it?

Can we discuss this?

Can we do this?

And there's three general reactions to it.

One is positive saying yep, let's do that.

The other one is you know, kind of a neutral I'm going to ignore it, let's you know, let's put it off, and many families kind of.

Just I think we've probably all done that.

Yeah, we've all done that.

And then the last one is to kind of say, you know, come back aggressively or just kind of putting up that wall and saying I'm not going to I'm just not going to talk with you.

I'm not going to have any relationship with you.

And I do think that there may be times, especially as those relationships edged towards the abusive, than having boundaries in place are helpful.

And you have to kind of be thinking, is as a permanent wall or is this, you know, one of those scaffolding fences that can come down.

Interesting what you're saying is that it seems that this kind of positioning is my stance?

Is this what are you going to do about it?

Who?

Like, when you say you have to have a bid, is the child putting forward a bid to the parent or are they just saying, what are you going to do now?

So it takes someone to.

Do the bid.

It takes something, and a bid is generally not you're still doing the terrible things that you did to me, you know, you know, twenty years ago and you're still doing it.

That's not a bid.

That's an accusation.

That's you know that that's that's not a way to start a conversation.

You know, a bid is often saying, you know, the past is the past, but I really want to talk about what's going on right now.

And I was wondering if we could sit down and do that.

I was wondering if we could do that with a therapist.

I was wondering if we could do that with a trusted friend.

Are you going to do it with a chardonnay?

Yeah?

Well yeah, well it depends on how many showIn is.

But it's you know, I do think that it is.

You know, we often think of a of a beard or you know, what this young woman was doing was saying, I'm angry at you.

I'm I was angry at you for what you did twenty years ago.

I'm still angry at you because you're still doing the same thing, but it's not it's not an opening where you can actually have a conversation about it.

I can imagine that the parents feel, you know, if nothing else, shame, defensiveness, a certain yeah, certainly sorrow.

You know, we've all seen parents go through this where they're confronted with their parenting styles because a child is the first generation of kids who've gone to therapy and then come out and accuse their parents of well, this is what I've learned about myself and this is because this is why.

And so parents are sort of floundering, going, what's this about?

Well, you know, I think that there's this.

You know, for me, what therapy is about is not saying I'm going to learn how to go and blame my you know, others for my situation and you know, and yes, there may be times where boundaries are effective and important to have, but the other part of that dynamic is saying, what was my role in it?

You know?

Where do I stand?

Or is there healing that I need to do?

Is there more skill you know, do I need to become more skillful?

It's it's really easy to go into therapy and come out pointing your fingers at everybody else.

But that's probably not the most effective use of therapy.

Mel Robbins, who've spoken abound this show before with the big lit them theory, she says what seems relatively benign, but she's copped a bit of flack for these comments.

Your parents, they've likely not gone to therapy, nor do they want to.

The issues that you see in their marriage that you wish you could change or make better, they've been there forever.

They're not changing.

They are who they are, they have the relationship they have.

It's not your responsibility to do anything about it.

And something that's helped me develop a level of acceptance and love with my folks is just saying to myself, they gave me everything they could based on their life experience.

It seems that this response is going along age lines, generation lines, so that certain age is saying, you know, I see you, I see your vulnerability as a parent, I see all of that, and then this slightly younger, still adult child is saying, no, that's not good enough.

He is an example of the response to mill.

I would not wish being an adult child a strange from your parent on my worst enemy, and if you talk to any adult children who are a strange from their parents or parent, they will most likely tell you that it was death by a thousand cuts.

We did not wake up one day and randomly decides that we're going to cut our parent out of our life.

For the majority of us adult children, we understand the sacrifices that our parents had to make.

We understand how difficult that parenting probably was, and we have given so much grace to that parent or parents.

But where we get so hung up and where we start to build resentment is the fact that when can look at our parents and say, we know that you didn't have the tools, we know that you did your best.

We know that you did the best with what you could.

But now we're at a point where I never got taught certain things, and I'm having to go out and find the answers and find the resources and change and face a lot of things that happened and become a better person.

And all that we want is.

For that a strange parent to do the same thing.

But they refuse.

See, generationally, every generation feels that they have more emotions or knowledge or whatever than their parents did.

Absolutely, but is that do you think that's where it should end.

Don't pick apart your upbringing.

Yeah, I mean, at some point, I think she was saying, on the one hand, my parents did the best they could, and then there was this big butt.

And when you use the word butt in a sentence like that, it negates the first part.

Of the sentence.

So if I say I love you, Amanda, but it really means that there's some issue with our relationship.

So she says my parents did the best they could butt, which is she's actually saying they didn't.

And then she's saying, but I didn't get what I needed.

And I don't think any any parent, any human being can go and give you everything that you need.

I don't think that that's the reality of it.

No, no husband can give a wife everything.

No wife can give a husband everything.

This is why we have communities, this is why we have friendships, this is why we have all these things.

And at the reality is is that it is our job as well, and we become adults to say what do I need?

What do I need?

Because truly, if I went to my kids and say said this is the way that you adult, they would have looked at me at that time and say that's not the way I'm going to adult.

I'm going to figure this out.

And what if they figure it out by saying I draw a line under your parenting and I'm going no contact?

This is Is this okay?

It says okay, it's a big question.

Is is it answerable?

I don't know that it is answerable.

And I know that I'm not particularly objective in this because my sister and I have been estranged for many years and it's caused a huge rift in my family.

And so I know that I'm not objective in this in this situation, and I won't speak of it only because my sister isn't here to go and tell us her side of it, And so in that it, I don't know where I placed myself.

What I'm you know, at that's high.

When my sister and.

I stopped communicating with each with each other, I thought that it was going to be another one of those, you know, situations where it was going to be short.

And it wasn't.

And you know, it's been a very long time now, and and I think that's where my concern lies, is that these things can take on a life of their own and you stop communicating and and your resentments build, and you don't have a chance to actually hear what the other person is going through or what their perspective of it is.

There's no chance for healing, there's no chance for connection.

And you know, it brings me a great deal of sorrow to to think about this.

So when it's when I hear people kind of and maybe I'm not maybe I'm not saying this right but almost proudly saying I've cut off contact, it, it brings me a lot of sorrow to hear that.

What you're suggesting in how you get over these things takes a lot of emotional intelligence and emotional large ess.

Because I know that even in my own life that if I'm looking for anxiety, if I'm looking to be irritated, I'll walk into a room and I'll see it.

I'll find the reality I'm searching for.

So if you're going to family Christmas and you're saying my brother does so and so, or Mum's going to say so and so will wind me up, You're going to find it instantly.

Absolutely, It's hard, isn't it.

I know that I see this really fabulous kinesiologist, which is a great sort of therapist for me, and she tries to get me to flip that.

Well, I walk into a room and say, I love it when I love it when work's going well.

I love it when my family everybody's happy at the same time, I love it how I feel when this happens.

And if you walk in looking for the good, what's what our glimmers are about?

I was just thinking looking for our glamorous Yeah, but.

How hard is it when you have a family narrative that, as you're saying, it's so easy over time to drill down on.

How do you break it?

Well?

I guess, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is not an easy answer.

I mean because again I think we need to differentiate between abusive situations versus except Yeah, but I think it's it's important to to approach without blame and you know, to the other and to try to hear their perspective.

That's hard sometimes because we already love having the shit.

It's really really hard, and it's really hard to point fingers and it's it's so hard, and especially when you're feeling hurt and there's no particular hurt that is as poignant as being a child, you know, feel like because you can walk into your you know, family home, and all of a sudden you're twelve again.

And so there's nothing as poignant as walking into your family home feeling hurt by something and then having that moment where you're hurt and the one thing that you want to do is last year rather than to have an adult conversation.

It's you know that parent child interaction is something that you know, we can we can fall into incredibly easily where parents are you know, pointing fingers where children are, or feeling terrible and pointing fingers back, and it's just it's non productive.

Why is it that family comes so loaded emotionally?

If they're friendships, you can walk away from them, not easily necessarily.

But why do we feel the tug of the family.

Why is that different?

I think it's because of the just the length of the connection.

Like you and camera know each other in a way that nobody else does, right, it's there is this connection that cannot be replicated because you shared all those family experiences.

You may have a different perspective of them, but you shared any of the family experiences.

And and I love the idea that you can be raised in the same home and have a very different experience because you know, you're a different child with different needs and different experiences because you were a different age and your parents were at a different place as well.

But with friendships, it's, you know, that's a choice.

You know your friends are choices.

Your family is your family, like you don't really have a choice about your family.

And maybe this is this generation saying I am making this a choice.

I'm making this a choice about whether I continue this relationship or not.

And you know, in some ways, I think it's you know, again, there might be times where that's reasonable to do.

My question is is it you know, where are your values?

Are your values that family is important, or are your values that your your friends are are more important because they are a choice.

I feel sort of implications of what we spoke about our COVID episode a few weeks ago, and I've already taken on board what you were saying that a lot of us aren't stepping up anymore, that we're putting our needs first.

My cup needs to be filled before I do anything, and so we're spending more time at home, We're making more selfish decisions about going out.

Is that sort of happening here with families too?

My boundaries are about me, and I'm not seeing a bigger picture.

I guess potentially.

I mean again, I think that this is people making choices that feel.

Healthy at the time.

But my question is it might be healthy in the moment, but there are long term implications I think down the track.

When you start making those choices to cut people out of your life without that without the opportunity of resolution, is that I think eventually you're going to end up with either in a silo with only people who agree with you totally, or maybe a chat bot or you know, an AI friend, or or.

You're you know you're.

Because this is a skill, I mean, finding resolution to situations, to family discord, to friendship discord.

It is it is a skill.

So I just yeah, so I.

Do trying to get from trying to get it from really short tiktoks of people who are angry at their family.

Yeah, I probably, Yeah, be a little careful about how we you know, what we believe about family relationships and the rules of family relationships, and you know how terrible parents can be.

So as we all head to the Christmas table, what what should our intention be?

If we all want an easy emotionally uplifting day.

I think I think exactly as you said, Like what your kinesiologist is telling you is look for the glimmers, look for the positives in that situation, Look forward to the positives in that situation.

About It's a lot of it is about listening to hear what your relatives you know, easy even crazy Uncle Frank.

You know, you know they you know Uncle Frank has a story to tell.

And the other pieces is to just be aware of the skills that you might need on that day around managing situations that you may feel triggered by, so making sure that you're not doing things that are going to cause you to become emotionally dysregulated.

Maybe, you know, maybe if if alcohol is the thing that makes you, you know, get into conflict, if you're that person, maybe limit that.

You know, it's those kinds of things, making sure that you're doing nice things for yourself before, during, and after.

I've covered a lot of ground we have.

I wish we'd recorded all of this, Anita, would that.

Be would that have been a good idea?

A cup of tea cup of tea, let's go do that.

Well, Anita.

I feel like I've had a therapy session.

You're not going to charge me again?

I am, I always always.

I just give you a monthly invoice.

Quite right, fair enough to let's do our glimmers.

You got those, watch your glimmer.

So I was in Hobart recently for a conference and I was talking to a colleague of mine and it was so delightful.

He said to me, he says, is this wrong?

I feel as though I'm in my happy place.

And we had this conversation, a lovely conversation about how conferences are places where we get to go and meet up with people that we haven't seen for a while, colleagues and you know, colleagues who become friends after a while.

From me, I see a whole bunch of mine students who've graduated and they're off having their lives, and it's delightful.

We get to go and sit and listen to really smart people challenge the way we think about things.

It's just a really yeah, conferences are a happy place.

Nice And how about you?

Amount Actually, I'm going to make my glimmer you, Anita McGregor, because this podcast today reminds me why I love doing this with you.

I can throw anything at you and say what do you make of this?

Help me make sense of this?

Will?

I know you will give a thoughtful, sensitive, educated response, And I think that makes you a very rare friend, a very rare podcast buddy.

So you're my glimmer today.

Thank you, Amanda.

That is profully love you.

Love you too, And we'll see you next week for our final one for the year.

And we have a special guest next time.

We two who's related by DNA in one of us exciting times ahead.

See you then, see

H