This podcast is for general information only and should not be taken as psychological advice.

Listeners should consult with their healthcare professionals for a specific medical advice.

Hello.

I'm Amanda Keller and I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to Double A Chattery.

And what an outpouring of love there has been from you guys about the interview we did with Lisa the End of Life, that who came on our podcast last week.

It's been very moving reading all your stories, and it seems that a doesn't matter how long ago it was that you had to say goodbye to a treasured pet's This stuff is so raw for so many and I don't think we took that into account, Anita, when we spoke to Lissa, because so many people said, oh God, I had to deal myself to listen to it.

We thought that we were just stabbing ourselves, but we really I think that there is a lot of people who have to make some wise decisions about if and how they listened to this podcast.

Yeah, I got this email from Korean who said, I'm waiting till tomorrow to listen to this.

I discovered tonight that my husband listens regularly.

He warned me I'd need tissues this week, so Alicia being looked after by him in a way that we didn't protect you, and I do apologize, but some of the comments were just so lovely.

We'll just go through some of them here.

This is from Jill.

I'm so glad you girls did the episode about having our beautiful Doggies put to sleep at home, because some people don't know about that.

We had our beautiful boy Chopper put to sleep back in March at home, just my husband and me and his sister Darcy, meaning I think the dog's sister who's blind and relied on him for everything.

I had advice to have Darcy there because dogs understand death and she would have gone looking for him.

We could tell she understood, and she grieved with us for a while.

He was surrounded by love the vet and were absolutely wonderful.

He had all of the naughty food that day, a reef and beef and Reese's peanut button cups.

He left us with so much and gave me the strength to let him go.

Oh stop, there we go again.

I scratch the service.

It's all there for all.

Of us, and it was.

It was interesting because Jill was also the person who you know, just started posting pictures of her dog, and then people just took it on and there was just I just had such a lovely time just looking at all the pictures of people and their dogs.

It was just it was everything.

Yeah, and I put up Mini, you put up the crunch.

Yeah, it was very sweet and I you know, when I there were so many people who talked about that process and how they're still grieving.

But what I really love is there are several people who identified like it's better than take them out one month early than thirty minutes too late.

It says everything.

And there was this, you know, a person who said he didn't say or I still am.

There's really no comfort letting go of your for a baby soul meat ever, And so you realize that, you know, people were talking about losing their paths, you know, years ago, and how it is still affecting them Like grief is, you know, it exists in layers, and I think with pats, especially when you've you know, there've been such an integral part of your family, it's just it's just hard.

Something you also touched on then is take the pressure off yourself.

This is what LIZI said, as well, take the pressure off yourself in having to make the decision as to win, because that's what a really good vet will do for you.

So you don't feel you're left with this burden of making this terrible decision.

You can't see it objectively, whereas a vent can come in and help you to see.

You know what's happening.

And there are steps you can take to honor your dog or cat, steps you can take to prepare yourself actively for what's to come.

I didn't want to talk about any of it, and then I found myself thinking, there will come a time and I'm going to need a plan.

I still don't know if I can think about that.

Now, but I was so proud of you to even think about doing that podcast because it was I knew it was going.

To be My dog's still alive.

Yeah, but thank you for that huge, huge response.

And now Anita an entirely different kettle of fish.

Let's talk about feminism's There was an article recently in the New York Times that was a result of a podcast that New York Times did.

The headline was did women ruin the Workforce?

There was some backlash the headline was changed to have feminine vices taken over the workplace, and then after further backlash, it was did liberal feminism ruin this workplace?

I don't even know what those were word it's me.

It's a very strange forum of backpedaling.

I think because they were trying to make it sound I think, less obnoxious, but it just it's to me, it kind of stayed at the same level of obnoxiousness.

Well, the people who were involved in this podcast here, one was Helen Andrews.

She's an American conservative political commentator and author.

Another one Leah Sergeant, she's a writer and speaker focused on conservative values.

And another man, Rosa do That, who's an American autho columnist and commentator best known for his work at The New York Times, but he used to also work at The Atlantic.

I'd like to think the New York Times the Atlantic knew better.

But you actually listened to the podcast, I couldn't be bothered.

What did you hear?

Did?

I listened to it on a road trip and I came off the road, Oh, I go to see.

It kept me awake.

I was so offended, and I think maybe kind of as I mean, because I consider myself an old school feminist.

You know that I've.

Which is a terrible trope.

It is a terrible trope, but it's but I mean, the whole idea for me, it was actually, I mean, good point of manna, but the you know, how we see feminism.

For me, feminism is just about trying to go and keep our eyes open to how we see men and women in the world.

And and really what I what offended me so much about this podcast was the idea that these two women had politicized as they are.

You know, everybody in the States tends to be doing right now is to politicize everything, and they were politicizing feminism and to be very conservative and really kind of stretching into ultra conservatism.

And in particular one of the women who were talking to Helen, she really had some very conservative views on where where women belong and what feminism should be, so she wasn't really keen on having women in the workforce.

Let's hear what Helen had to say.

What is toxic femininity?

Gossiping, inability to deal with conflict directly and kind of suppressing conflict, and aversion to directness, which naturally in a workplace is a big problem because you need to be able to give direct feedback to people, including negative feedback.

I think some of what you're describing is not exclusively feminine, you know, and it's strange to characterize it so strongly in that direction.

It's a product of human beings being bad at group dynamics in a variety of ways that men can fail at women can fail at.

Is that the primary thing that you've is lost in institutions that undergo what you're calling feminization, the failure to seek truth.

I think that's right, and I think that's why the harms or perils of feminization have to be examined on a case by case basis for each institution and discipline.

I think something like eighty percent of veterinary students are women today.

Are they doing a bad job at treating the you do predict they are well.

Actually, male veterinarians are more likely to own their own practices, whereas female veterinarians prefer not to because being an owner involves more financial risk and longer and less flexible hours.

And I'd have to say now that psychology is now a female driven profession as well, So clearly we're going to hell.

We're all going to hell when we look at the stats.

This look at some Australian stats.

The Australian Workplace Gender or Quality Agency found that a ten percent increase in female top tier managers led to a six point six percent market value increase on as six listed companies.

UK research from last month found that inclusive workplaces have a sixty eight percent increase in productivity.

A twenty twenty two study from the UK found that flexible working arrangements led to a global productivity increase of up to fifty percent, and the same report found that having a female CEO was associated with a five percent increase in market value.

So where is the downside and having flexibility in a workplace and having female attributes and female emotions the wokism as they've said, into the workplace.

Well, the fact that we're still having to go and provide statistics saying look, look, you know, women aren't homing the workplace in an octageous I know.

The fact that we know we're somehow you know, doing good work, I mean, and that this is surprising is surprising to me that we would have to do this in you know, in twenty twenty five.

It just it surprises me that we are still in this place.

You are the only one who was surprised.

He's some of the beck lash against the New York Times.

So I just want to say massive shame, shame shame on the New York Times for running this terrible click bait headline in a world where they know very well that the majority of people are only reading headlines on both their website and on social media, and they're planting this terrible idea in people's heads just so they can make something go viral.

Publishing this during a time when our federal government is literally being build dozed by the most mediocre, misogynistic men with far too much audacity and far too few meds and therapy for their rampant DSN diagnoses is certainly a choice.

Women don't ruin anything.

We build everything.

Nothing exists without us, nothing can be sustained without us.

We are fifty one percent of the population, with eighty percent of consumer buying power and three trillion dollars in spend.

Women ruin the workplace, Well, if you define ruin as flexible hours were culture, that's more conducive to family and just better mental health, more creativity, more probability, more collaboration, and in medicine, better outcomes and fewer deaths than sure.

Women ruin the workplace?

Are you kidding me?

Wow, I'm just looking at some old headlines from things that women have apparently ruined, Anita, So we.

Tell tell me what we've ruined.

I'll tell you what we've ruined.

We are so powerful, So yes, we've had Did women ruin the workplace?

This is an oldie?

Are American women ruining the art of cooking?

Jack Nicholas says, women are ruining golf's future?

Women are ruining theater?

Are women ruining the country?

Will be the topic of discussion at a symposium the hosting women ruining the World as another headline, women.

At higher World, Whole World.

Women are ruining marriage, Women are ruining America.

Women are ruining men, says editor, women are ruining military schools.

As a Navy candidate, this isn't a new trope, is it?

No?

No, absolutely not.

And it's interesting that, like, I don't know, I'd like to I'll tell you my theory about why I think this is, and I'd love to hear your theory on this.

Is that I think that it's lovely to be in a position of power.

Men historically have have managed a great deal of financial and relationship power, you know, across the world, and we do have a patriarchal system, and I think it's hard to give it up.

It's really really hard to give it up.

And I'm wondering if this whole backlash against women are ruining things.

I don't want to have to give up my privileged position.

Is part of this is that I want to maintain it.

So I'm going to kind of lash out.

What you like.

Do you think that that is merit?

Do you think that do you have a different idea?

No, I think that's absolutely right.

I thought it was interesting my two sons went to a boys' school, not necessarily by my choice.

That happened to be a school that had a great series of attributes.

But not long after they started high school, they'd started using words like feminazi.

Feminist was used as an insult, and they didn't know really what they were saying.

They were just saying what they were hearing.

When a collective group of boys got together and I said to those I said, to those boys, picture, I said, our household runs the way it does because of feminism, I can go to work every day.

Your dad has the choice to be free lance and to stay at home in the morning to look after you.

I'm paying school fees pretty much.

These are the decisions we made as a couple.

Because your father's a feminist, because I'm a feminist, and you grow up you were growing up in a feminist household.

I will not hear any more of that talk.

And all my sons are in the twenties, they would never say those things.

We now have fabulous, achieving, funny, smart female friends.

This was just dumb stuff young boys say.

But in the rising tide of our Andrew takes there is a very scary phenomenon that's come with this, and that is young women who don't appreciate what feminism is.

They think it's someone being strident.

They think it's anti male, and how long have feminists been saying that's not what this is.

This is two young women discussing why they wanted to dismantle feminism.

And there's this other girl who comes straight enoughter she's watched this and she's brilliant.

We want to dismantle the whole feminism, the mess.

We we are anti feminist.

We've been anti feminist the whole time.

You go first.

You go first, You hand in your microphone and your platforms, and you show us what dismantling feminism really means.

Because in order for you to have access to that microphone, to that platform, and to benefit or profit from your message and amplifying your message in any way, marketing your message in any way, to need feminism.

So the first step to dismantling feminism is to stand behind your own values and your own belief system and to cut yourself off from any ability to have any kind of autonomy, and that includes financial autonomy.

And I'm going to need you to go first, because it just seems incredibly ironic that the women who are championing and proliferating the ideals of traadwifery and these conservative values are the first ones to profit from it, which you can only do if you are standing on the shoulders of feminists.

So you go first.

Brilliant bravo email to that.

We will put the details of that young woman who spoke so beautifully at the end of this podcast.

I think she's amazing.

I think her a point about that we forrig out about the shoulders of the women who fought hard to you know, earn rights to have a say, to just be considered is just if we if we forget that, I cannot imagine where we will go to if we if we continue to go and forget that.

I want a privileged position to be able to forget that.

Oh and I, you know, you and I a man, have had conversations about our our work lives when we were younger, and and you know, I certainly, uh work in a very male dominated system, you know, and we were prisons.

I worked in prisons, and the some of the behavior that I was exposed to was unbelievable.

And it's you know, I can, I can really, you know, I realized that I was, you know, in a difficult position.

There was at one point in my career, I was the first woman to run a segregation unit in a men's maximum security prison.

And it was it was so hard, Amanda.

It was just so hard.

Because I made it so hard for you, you know.

I It's interesting because I actually was treated with quite a bit of respect from the offenders, but it was it was the staff.

It was all the male staff, and they made they made my life very very difficult, and you know, I think about that that would never that would not happen.

Likely, I hope it would never happen here in Australia, nor in Canada where that happened.

But it's it's hard to imagine that that was really only thirty some years ago, like it was not, you know, generations ago.

This was just.

Recent, really in recent memory.

As an adjunct to that, or maybe a reaction to to all of this and the tradwife kind of staff.

There's been also a spate of women on social media, and there's an article in Vogue about this.

Is having a boyfriend embarrassing now is the name of the article, But what they're saying and what people are responding to in this is a whole lot of social media has been about women defining themselves in an aspirational way by their boyfriends.

Here I am with my boyfriend on holidays.

Here we are drinking pinacoladas around a pool.

Here we are whatever.

Young women now are posting their lives without men in them, and they're saying how much better it is, And some of the comments here, I'm so glad women aren't shamed for being single.

The single cat lady isn't an insult.

Women are free to choose themselves or companionship out of their own free will.

It's not embarrassing to have a boyfriend, says one.

It's embarrassing to make the relationship your whole personality.

So there's a slight shift there.

So, of course, I mean, of course women can live the lives in the way that they want to.

But it's thanks to feminism, well thanks to and to me.

Though, I think it's actually kind of sad the thought that they're removing themselves from the discussion.

They're just kind of saying, I'm giving up on men, I'm giving up on people.

I'm giving up on all the things that make in lots of ways that make life worthwhile.

I think is by being in connection with people, men included, women included.

I just that actually kind of it makes me kind of sad to hear that.

Well, then, how do you feel about this?

I read an article the other day about a woman in Japan.

She walked down the aisle wearing ai glasses that allowed her and the congregation because it was projected up on the screen to see her anime boyfriend, who looked like he was straight out of a cartoon a young chiseled you know, anime character, but she that wings no no about as.

I'd understand that if it was very poorn, I'd get it.

But she'd had a long relationship with him.

And a huge number of young people now are having relationships with AI with chat GPT.

And this is what I find so interesting is that because I was listening to a Spotify playlist and I thought, how does my Spotify know me so well?

Because I've taught it.

To know me.

I've given up I've given up my favorites, I've given it my personality to feedback to me.

And in the early stages of a relationship, that's what we get.

We see ourselves reflected in someone's eyes.

And then real life kicks in, and no one can do that for you because humanity and human beings and another personality is involved.

Whereas in our humans and there's.

Another fully fledged human who has their own opinion about you, Whereas in AI, you're seeing everything that you love about yourself reflected back at you.

And I wondered if this is the female equivalent of the sex doll.

Here is this woman marrying her AI, and that's all she wants is a companion who sees her, who gets her, who has all those emotional needs.

Because men these days, we don't need them buy and large to provide for us.

We don't need them to hang around while we have babies because chances are they may not.

We don't need them for the security, and so we actually turn to them to be as you just said, and eat it for human connection, to share our lives.

And if you're not going to get that, people are turning to anime.

I have this investment opportunity for a you amount.

I'm ready to do it.

I've got my checkbook out.

We're going to go and buy an island somewhere so women can just move there like and we're just going to call ourselves Amazonian women.

What will we do?

Anita ride horses and I don't know, go for walks on the piece.

I have no idea.

I like the sound of it.

Are they our options?

AI or Amazonian island?

We could maybe read a book maybe or two, and have some wine.

I think that.

See, I get it.

I get it why a woman would want to be a lesbian.

But you don't even have to have the sex bit.

You can just have the companion.

The companionship.

Yeah, absolutely, But I mean this is what this woman you know who's marrying per Ai Avatar is looking at, is saying, I'm going to have a relationship basically with myself.

You know, somebody who's going to agree with me, Somebody who has the same interests as me.

Somebody who does the same things, wants to watch the same TV show, likes to you know, you know, eat the same obviously not gonna eat food, but you know, like doesn't have any kind of disagreements.

I mean, that's not a relationship.

That's not real.

It doesn't matter in the same way we discussed the sex doll.

Does it matter because it's offensive as a woman to think some guy would prefer that.

How would men feel hearing?

Well, I don't need you because I've got a version of myself.

I just you know, to me, that's not a relationship.

A relationship is where you're challenging each other to grow, You're disagreeing with each other, and you're finding some solutions that you can go and cope with your disagreement.

You're doing all those things that you're not getting with that kind of relationship, or in fact your relationship at all, which is what some people women are choosing too, apparently so.

But if life's hard, If life's hard, you're working in a workplace where you know you're not appreciated.

We've just heard about how all that's going.

Why not head home to put on your AI glass, get a packet of chips, and watch TV with someone who loves you, which happens to be either.

A cat or AI.

I mean, I think there's probably times in one's lives we're making that choice about I want to be single, I want to figure out who I am, I want to do all those kinds of you know, or I'm committing myself to my career.

I guess those are legitimate decisions.

But I wonder, you know, if on your deathbed, you're going to look back and say, I'm really going to I bet my avatar is really going to miss me.

My boyfriend's out of batteries, He's going.

To run out of batteries.

Yeah, Like it's a weird.

It is a weird thing that I mean, part of it is like what will we regret?

Maybe, you know, people will get to the end of their lives and they won't regret having no relationship or you know, no intimate relationship or no relationship with a human being.

I don't know.

I just it seems a little empty to me.

You Oh yeah, I think so too.

I can see the appeal of it.

But this is what we discussed.

We spoke about the post COVID world.

You said something that really stuck with me where you said, think of the best times in your life.

Have they been sitting at home on the counch or have they been those unexpected nights where you go out and you have fun.

Yeah.

Yeah, and if you choose the insular version, you're going to miss out on a lot.

Yeah.

And again, I mean everybody is going to find their own proportion of you know, I want to stay at home and you know, eat chips and watch a bad TV show versus I'm going to go out and you know, be with my friends, or I'm going to go and take a course, or I'm going to you know, try a new hobby or something.

I mean, I think that we're all we'll all find that balance and all of the you know, our balance might be different a person to person, but really I think just sitting without any challenge in our lives is an empty life.

So do you think in light of all we've spoken about the meandering road we've taken today in terms of feminism, in terms of modern men, modern women, where we all meet in the middle, there's still a drive for connection and sex and and and a relationship.

I hope, So, I really hope.

So.

I mean there are days where I am, you know, challenged, and feel a little less optimistic, But overall, I mean, I you know, my work with the students, I you know, most of the time, I'm filled with optimism.

I'm filled with you know, here's this young generation and they're figuring it out.

Just like we did, no matter what those other bits and pieces that come to player.

Yeah, the challenges are different.

But you know, I hope that they figured it out, and I hope that they have some appreciation of the shoulders that you know, that they will be standing on as they make their way into the world.

Well, if they're children of the eighties, will be standing on shoulder pads.

Absolutely, it's more comfortable though.

Absolutely.

Should we get to our glimmers, that's I think we can have a collective glimmer, Anita, that's you, me and our tea cups.

Because you said something to me on the weekend.

That made me sad but optimistic.

We were at a Christmas market in the boiling sun.

Actually the sun took us by surprise, so the only hats we could buy were children's hats, So we walked around in children's buckets hats for the day.

We were so attractive about it.

It was hard, a little arranged.

But while we were there, you said, after being Canadian, funnily enough and having all, even though you've been in Australia for fifteen sixteen.

Years, almost twenty almost twenty years.

That it still doesn't feel like Christmas for you.

It doesn't.

And I understand that popular culture for us is we still see pictures of snow, of cold weather, of crunchy bits and pieces and eggnog, of all of that.

And in Australia, our triggers for Christmas are different.

We have school.

Holidays, we all relax, we put up Christmas decorations in the heat, we eat seafood.

Our triggers are different to yours.

Very and you were wondering what you could do to feel more christmasy.

It was like my sister in law told me earlier this morning, and she was feastiming with me because She wanted to show me that.

She was so excited.

She was trying to put up her Christmas decorations and it's not yet December.

She was so proud of herself.

I was so proud of her.

It was and I knew that, you know, the late was starting to come down.

It was early afternoon.

For her.

It was you know, it's Christmas.

And I could feel her excitement.

But then I look outside and it's like a zillion degrees and it just doesn't feel like Christmas at all.

I wonder what other people in your circumstances have done, because I get it we have a very different kind of Christmas.

Like near the beach, you'll see backpackers who think it's what a novelty.

They'll go swimming and take photos for their families.

There they are with the Santa hats on, with a couch set up on the beach, and one of them is dressed as Santa.

But they're doing that for one year, for one Christmas, and they send the photos home, going what a novelty?

Yeah, if that's your every Christmas, I can see why it's disappointing.

Well, I want to feel christmasy.

I want to have that feeling again.

I want to and I know, I mean, it's so exciting.

I'm going to be spending Christmas with my you know, with my son, my daughter and my two grandchild children.

We're also going to have a fake Christmas because my son from Canada and his and his partner are coming in for Christmas.

Yes, so we're doing Yeah, We're going to do, you know, a first Christmas.

So I love that, but I would love to have that sense of Christmas with it.

And so I am hoping that the teacups can kind of help me have some ideas about how to get into the into the holiday spirit.

Should you sit in an ice bath and we go, sucker, that's how cold you'd be?

It?

Is it about embracing you know, going and getting you know, standing in line for prawns?

Is it?

Is it about I don't know what it is, but I'm just looking for some ideas about how I can really embrace it.

Is it anita walking barefoot on some bindies and as you say, queuing from prawns?

And is it getting sun burned and drunk in the middle of the day and then lying in the sun and hating yourself?

What are the marks of Christmas that can help get Anita over the line here.

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