1 00:00:00,709 --> 00:00:03,253 Be humble that we don't have all the answers 2 00:00:03,753 --> 00:00:06,756 and we're just trying to learn as well 3 00:00:08,258 --> 00:00:10,343 and try to put yourself in their shoes, 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,972 how we would feel if people come to us 5 00:00:13,972 --> 00:00:15,140 like we're coming to them. 6 00:00:16,224 --> 00:00:19,060 Try to learn what's important to them, 7 00:00:19,394 --> 00:00:20,645 both in a negative and 8 00:00:20,645 --> 00:00:22,480 positive sense what they like 9 00:00:22,689 --> 00:00:23,898 and what they don't like. 10 00:00:24,733 --> 00:00:27,694 To be their friend really is to listen to them, 11 00:00:27,694 --> 00:00:28,778 give a listening ear. 12 00:00:35,618 --> 00:00:37,495 Well, Dan, welcome to the 13 00:00:37,495 --> 00:00:39,122 Anabaptist Perspectives podcast. 14 00:00:39,664 --> 00:00:40,790 So we're filming this in Ireland 15 00:00:41,291 --> 00:00:42,917 and you've lived here for 16 00:00:42,917 --> 00:00:44,669 28 years, I believe it is. 17 00:00:44,711 --> 00:00:45,086 That's right. 18 00:00:45,587 --> 00:00:47,005 And the first question I have for you, 19 00:00:47,213 --> 00:00:48,298 you were asked to come over here 20 00:00:48,298 --> 00:00:49,966 as part of an outreach at a church plant. 21 00:00:50,592 --> 00:00:52,010 What is it like doing an 22 00:00:52,010 --> 00:00:53,970 outreach in a country like Ireland 23 00:00:54,179 --> 00:00:55,221 that has at least 24 00:00:55,221 --> 00:00:57,474 historically really deep Christian roots 25 00:00:57,807 --> 00:00:59,851 and what all was part of that process? 26 00:00:59,851 --> 00:01:00,268 And what was the history of 27 00:01:00,268 --> 00:01:00,977 that as you came over here? 28 00:01:02,270 --> 00:01:03,021 Well, yes, you're right. 29 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:04,773 Ireland has a history of 30 00:01:04,773 --> 00:01:06,566 being a religious country, 31 00:01:07,108 --> 00:01:09,569 sometimes called the land of saints and scholars. 32 00:01:10,528 --> 00:01:13,156 So they've been like Trinity College in Dublin 33 00:01:13,156 --> 00:01:15,784 has been there for I think over a thousand years. 34 00:01:16,201 --> 00:01:18,578 It's a very old college 35 00:01:18,787 --> 00:01:21,831 and the church has been well established here, 36 00:01:21,831 --> 00:01:22,749 primary the Catholic 37 00:01:22,749 --> 00:01:25,293 church in the last 100 years, 38 00:01:25,376 --> 00:01:26,795 although for years before that, 39 00:01:27,128 --> 00:01:28,505 it was also a Protestant church. 40 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:29,881 It's a lot of history there 41 00:01:29,881 --> 00:01:31,257 when England drove Ireland, 42 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,677 it was more Protestant and it's more Catholic, 43 00:01:34,677 --> 00:01:37,222 but it sort of gives the 44 00:01:37,222 --> 00:01:40,099 people a sense of being Christian 45 00:01:40,725 --> 00:01:43,728 because they believe the Bible, many of them do, 46 00:01:44,687 --> 00:01:47,649 and many of them go to church. 47 00:01:48,650 --> 00:01:53,404 And so there's somewhat a sense of feeling 48 00:01:53,404 --> 00:01:54,864 that we're already 49 00:01:54,864 --> 00:01:58,493 Christians, why should we listen to you? 50 00:01:58,868 --> 00:01:59,953 What are you bringing us? 51 00:02:00,161 --> 00:02:00,829 Something different. 52 00:02:01,621 --> 00:02:03,081 In some cases, it's almost 53 00:02:03,081 --> 00:02:04,833 like they were inoculated 54 00:02:04,916 --> 00:02:06,835 against the message of the 55 00:02:06,835 --> 00:02:08,545 gospel that we would want to bring 56 00:02:08,628 --> 00:02:11,047 because they feel they are 57 00:02:11,047 --> 00:02:13,258 Christian and they do believe, 58 00:02:13,591 --> 00:02:14,801 a lot of them would believe 59 00:02:14,801 --> 00:02:16,511 the same facts of the Bible 60 00:02:16,511 --> 00:02:17,345 that we believe. 61 00:02:18,555 --> 00:02:23,601 So yes, I'd say the main aspect of that is then 62 00:02:23,601 --> 00:02:25,353 that it takes time to 63 00:02:25,353 --> 00:02:27,605 earn their trust and respect. 64 00:02:28,940 --> 00:02:33,069 We can't just convince them by talking 65 00:02:33,695 --> 00:02:36,489 or knocking on the door and handing them a tract 66 00:02:36,489 --> 00:02:38,116 and saying, "Look, why 67 00:02:38,116 --> 00:02:38,992 don't you come to our church?" 68 00:02:39,993 --> 00:02:41,744 They have a church as a rule, 69 00:02:42,036 --> 00:02:43,329 most of our neighbors would. 70 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,749 And so we sense pretty 71 00:02:46,749 --> 00:02:49,252 quickly that we need to just live 72 00:02:49,502 --> 00:02:53,298 among the people here and live out our faith 73 00:02:53,756 --> 00:02:56,217 in a day-to-day manner. 74 00:02:56,551 --> 00:03:00,972 And that's part of the reason that we started 75 00:03:01,097 --> 00:03:02,390 several different businesses 76 00:03:02,390 --> 00:03:05,685 here to live and work right 77 00:03:05,810 --> 00:03:08,229 with the people and reach 78 00:03:08,229 --> 00:03:10,857 them on a down-to-earth level 79 00:03:10,857 --> 00:03:14,152 where they live and buying and selling things, 80 00:03:14,652 --> 00:03:16,279 baking things and so on that 81 00:03:16,279 --> 00:03:20,825 we are seen to be working people 82 00:03:20,825 --> 00:03:23,161 and not just living like 83 00:03:23,161 --> 00:03:25,955 missionaries on missionary dole 84 00:03:26,539 --> 00:03:27,624 welfare from the States. 85 00:03:28,458 --> 00:03:30,001 We're trying to earn our own living here 86 00:03:30,001 --> 00:03:30,919 as much as possible. 87 00:03:32,503 --> 00:03:33,421 So you're already touching 88 00:03:33,421 --> 00:03:35,340 on some of this, but yeah, 89 00:03:35,757 --> 00:03:37,884 the difficulties you encountered, again, 90 00:03:38,176 --> 00:03:39,218 you've been here 28 years, 91 00:03:39,218 --> 00:03:40,011 I'm sure you've seen a lot 92 00:03:40,011 --> 00:03:41,554 of difficulties and challenges. 93 00:03:42,180 --> 00:03:43,890 You're in a, this isn't your home culture, 94 00:03:43,890 --> 00:03:44,807 you're originally from America. 95 00:03:46,517 --> 00:03:47,185 Yeah, describe some of 96 00:03:47,185 --> 00:03:48,269 those challenges over the years 97 00:03:48,269 --> 00:03:50,855 or the difficulties of these forms of outreach 98 00:03:50,855 --> 00:03:53,900 and gaining people and so forth. 99 00:03:54,984 --> 00:03:59,572 Yes, well, that's the, that is the essence of it 100 00:03:59,572 --> 00:04:01,616 in that they already have a religion. 101 00:04:02,450 --> 00:04:04,786 And so we didn't have, 102 00:04:05,286 --> 00:04:06,454 it's been difficult to have 103 00:04:06,663 --> 00:04:09,290 local people attending our church services. 104 00:04:10,750 --> 00:04:12,460 One thing the Catholics in 105 00:04:12,460 --> 00:04:14,295 the past at least were taught 106 00:04:14,420 --> 00:04:18,299 that it's a serious sin to cross the threshold 107 00:04:18,508 --> 00:04:21,344 into a Protestant church or a church 108 00:04:21,511 --> 00:04:22,470 that's not a Catholic church. 109 00:04:23,096 --> 00:04:24,681 Interesting, like why? They considered it 110 00:04:24,681 --> 00:04:25,682 a serious sin. 111 00:04:26,641 --> 00:04:27,934 Was that just because of 112 00:04:27,934 --> 00:04:29,394 the conflict between Ireland 113 00:04:29,394 --> 00:04:31,479 and England historically or 114 00:04:31,479 --> 00:04:32,939 like the Catholic Protestant? 115 00:04:33,147 --> 00:04:35,733 More than that, a conflict between Catholics 116 00:04:35,733 --> 00:04:36,526 and Protestants. 117 00:04:37,193 --> 00:04:37,360 Interesting. 118 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:40,530 I can't really tell you how that developed, 119 00:04:40,738 --> 00:04:42,699 but I think they called it a venial sin, 120 00:04:42,699 --> 00:04:44,534 which is a very serious one. 121 00:04:44,993 --> 00:04:45,952 I'm not sure, I can't 122 00:04:45,952 --> 00:04:47,412 describe all those terms completely. 123 00:04:48,246 --> 00:04:51,958 But so much so that some 124 00:04:51,958 --> 00:04:53,459 of the older people locally 125 00:04:53,543 --> 00:04:55,169 would never have wanted to 126 00:04:55,169 --> 00:04:57,005 walk into our church building. 127 00:04:57,463 --> 00:04:57,797 Wow. 128 00:04:58,339 --> 00:04:59,382 So it's a serious. 129 00:05:00,258 --> 00:05:01,050 So that's a pretty 130 00:05:01,050 --> 00:05:03,970 significant cultural or religious, 131 00:05:03,970 --> 00:05:05,888 I guess, barrier, difficulty 132 00:05:05,888 --> 00:05:08,141 that you've had to work with. 133 00:05:08,182 --> 00:05:08,599 Work with. 134 00:05:09,308 --> 00:05:12,145 But that thankfully is somewhat changing 135 00:05:12,395 --> 00:05:13,855 with the younger generation. 136 00:05:15,314 --> 00:05:17,066 I would say most of the 137 00:05:17,066 --> 00:05:21,571 generation in the last 20 years now 138 00:05:22,238 --> 00:05:25,074 growing up wouldn't really have a consciousness 139 00:05:25,366 --> 00:05:27,285 of that as being so serious. 140 00:05:28,119 --> 00:05:30,705 So that is improving in 141 00:05:30,705 --> 00:05:32,040 the sense of breaking down 142 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:32,665 those barriers. 143 00:05:33,791 --> 00:05:36,044 But historically, yeah, there would be stories 144 00:05:36,294 --> 00:05:37,754 of very serious 145 00:05:37,754 --> 00:05:40,173 conflict, even very nearby here, 146 00:05:40,882 --> 00:05:42,091 if a Protestant would 147 00:05:42,091 --> 00:05:43,551 marry a Catholic or vice versa. 148 00:05:43,968 --> 00:05:45,678 They could be ostracized, 149 00:05:46,012 --> 00:05:47,346 their house could be burned, 150 00:05:47,638 --> 00:05:49,557 or there was just a tremendous conflict 151 00:05:50,099 --> 00:05:51,184 between the two religions. 152 00:05:52,101 --> 00:05:53,978 So it's good to keep that in mind 153 00:05:54,896 --> 00:05:58,649 so we don't come across as being know it all 154 00:05:58,775 --> 00:06:00,943 and haughty in any way, 155 00:06:00,943 --> 00:06:02,945 but just to be careful that 156 00:06:04,155 --> 00:06:05,865 some of them, that's their 157 00:06:05,865 --> 00:06:07,158 impression of Protestants. 158 00:06:07,825 --> 00:06:09,911 And see, to them, we're Protestants. 159 00:06:10,453 --> 00:06:13,039 We don't, Anabaptists are not necessarily 160 00:06:13,372 --> 00:06:17,043 Catholics or Protestants, but to them, 161 00:06:17,043 --> 00:06:19,629 if you're not Catholic here, well, some people, 162 00:06:19,629 --> 00:06:21,547 think we're Mormons, we must be Mormons. 163 00:06:22,006 --> 00:06:23,091 Oh, interesting. 164 00:06:23,925 --> 00:06:24,675 But it's kind of like 165 00:06:24,675 --> 00:06:26,719 that's the only other bucket, 166 00:06:26,719 --> 00:06:27,804 so to speak, to put people in. 167 00:06:28,054 --> 00:06:30,098 If you're not Catholic, you have to be this. 168 00:06:31,182 --> 00:06:35,436 That's, yeah, I'm sure every culture and country 169 00:06:35,436 --> 00:06:38,481 and people and so forth has particular barriers 170 00:06:38,481 --> 00:06:41,109 to get across, to engage them. 171 00:06:41,359 --> 00:06:42,360 And so that, again, that feels 172 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:43,611 like a pretty significant one. 173 00:06:44,779 --> 00:06:47,573 My sense would be, it probably needed 174 00:06:47,573 --> 00:06:50,576 a lot of patience and faithfulness here. 175 00:06:50,827 --> 00:06:52,703 Interesting that you use those two words. 176 00:06:53,496 --> 00:06:57,041 It's a phrase that I have shared with people 177 00:06:57,041 --> 00:06:59,710 many times is patient faithfulness. 178 00:07:00,795 --> 00:07:01,629 I didn't know that. 179 00:07:02,004 --> 00:07:03,172 Oh, that's really interesting. 180 00:07:03,589 --> 00:07:05,174 Well, please tell me more then, yeah. 181 00:07:05,716 --> 00:07:10,096 Well, that sort of came from sometimes 182 00:07:10,596 --> 00:07:14,267 when people are here for a year or two or three 183 00:07:15,059 --> 00:07:17,979 and the church hasn't grown in numbers 184 00:07:18,688 --> 00:07:21,315 to where we have 50 or 100 or more people. 185 00:07:21,816 --> 00:07:22,817 Like you probably would 186 00:07:22,817 --> 00:07:24,443 find if you move to Africa, 187 00:07:24,694 --> 00:07:27,738 to Kenya or some of those countries where people 188 00:07:28,197 --> 00:07:30,199 seem to be more open to the gospel message 189 00:07:30,575 --> 00:07:33,411 and to a conservative Anabaptist message. 190 00:07:35,705 --> 00:07:38,249 So sometimes, and we may get into this later, 191 00:07:38,332 --> 00:07:39,375 but sometimes the pressure 192 00:07:39,375 --> 00:07:41,586 comes to what's wrong with us. 193 00:07:41,586 --> 00:07:42,587 We're doing something wrong. 194 00:07:43,462 --> 00:07:44,297 We need to change. 195 00:07:44,714 --> 00:07:46,465 We need to make it more 196 00:07:46,465 --> 00:07:48,217 attractive to the local people. 197 00:07:49,802 --> 00:07:52,638 But I have observed enough, 198 00:07:53,264 --> 00:07:54,515 and I could name a number 199 00:07:54,515 --> 00:07:56,058 of places right off the top 200 00:07:56,058 --> 00:07:58,519 of my head, where that approach, 201 00:07:59,353 --> 00:08:01,230 churches have sort of gone that route 202 00:08:01,397 --> 00:08:05,109 of accommodating the desires of the people 203 00:08:05,651 --> 00:08:08,029 to make it easier and more platable. 204 00:08:10,198 --> 00:08:11,616 And I'm not saying there's 205 00:08:11,616 --> 00:08:13,618 nothing we should consider there, 206 00:08:14,243 --> 00:08:19,749 but if we do everything people want, 207 00:08:20,374 --> 00:08:22,501 we end up with, what do we end up with? 208 00:08:23,461 --> 00:08:24,629 Not much of anything. 209 00:08:26,005 --> 00:08:27,048 Just give one example. 210 00:08:28,132 --> 00:08:30,676 One man came, local man, and he said, 211 00:08:31,594 --> 00:08:33,054 see, we still sit the 212 00:08:33,054 --> 00:08:34,347 brethren on one side of the sisters 213 00:08:34,597 --> 00:08:35,681 and the other men and ladies. 214 00:08:36,557 --> 00:08:39,769 And he said, you will never see, 215 00:08:39,769 --> 00:08:41,604 local people walk in and see that, 216 00:08:41,896 --> 00:08:42,939 they'll turn around, walk out. 217 00:08:43,481 --> 00:08:44,899 They'll not come to a church like that. 218 00:08:45,900 --> 00:08:46,901 So we talked about it. 219 00:08:47,443 --> 00:08:50,571 That's not a Bible verse that you can point to 220 00:08:50,571 --> 00:08:51,781 that we have to do that. 221 00:08:52,531 --> 00:08:54,033 So anything like that 222 00:08:54,033 --> 00:08:55,243 that's brought to our attention, 223 00:08:55,576 --> 00:08:57,161 we will consider it. 224 00:08:57,161 --> 00:08:58,538 We'll see, is that an accommodation 225 00:08:58,829 --> 00:09:00,665 we should make to the culture of the people? 226 00:09:01,749 --> 00:09:03,292 But then when we start talking, 227 00:09:03,709 --> 00:09:06,712 another man who came from another culture said, 228 00:09:06,796 --> 00:09:08,422 oh no, don't change that. 229 00:09:08,422 --> 00:09:09,340 That's one of the things we 230 00:09:09,340 --> 00:09:10,758 liked about the church here. 231 00:09:11,467 --> 00:09:13,010 So now how do you please 232 00:09:13,010 --> 00:09:15,012 these people and these people? 233 00:09:15,846 --> 00:09:20,685 And you soon see that trying to please the people 234 00:09:21,602 --> 00:09:23,229 is sort of a dead end road 235 00:09:23,437 --> 00:09:26,023 because you probably end up displeasing 236 00:09:26,023 --> 00:09:27,400 as many as you're pleasing 237 00:09:28,150 --> 00:09:31,320 and maybe not be attractive to anyone. 238 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,781 So that term patient faithfulness, 239 00:09:34,407 --> 00:09:35,700 we live out our faith. 240 00:09:36,325 --> 00:09:37,785 We don't need to jump this 241 00:09:37,785 --> 00:09:39,578 way and this way and this way 242 00:09:40,329 --> 00:09:43,082 to try to keep these people from leaving 243 00:09:43,249 --> 00:09:45,376 or to get them to come. 244 00:09:46,252 --> 00:09:49,839 But patient faithfulness, year after year, 245 00:09:50,339 --> 00:09:52,466 we'll show more to the people 246 00:09:53,259 --> 00:09:55,136 that that's what they want for their families. 247 00:09:55,594 --> 00:09:57,054 Something that's stable 248 00:09:57,054 --> 00:09:59,724 and is not shifting quickly. 249 00:10:00,558 --> 00:10:01,934 We've changed a few things 250 00:10:01,934 --> 00:10:03,728 and we probably will some more, 251 00:10:04,353 --> 00:10:05,521 but we don't do it quickly. 252 00:10:05,980 --> 00:10:08,232 And not just because one or two people think 253 00:10:08,232 --> 00:10:09,608 we should do this or that. 254 00:10:10,067 --> 00:10:12,153 So that's where that phrase comes from. 255 00:10:12,153 --> 00:10:15,615 Yeah, that's really helpful context there. 256 00:10:15,948 --> 00:10:17,199 So let's flesh that out a bit. 257 00:10:17,783 --> 00:10:19,285 How did you go about then? 258 00:10:19,285 --> 00:10:20,536 Like reaching out to your neighbors, 259 00:10:20,536 --> 00:10:23,247 doing outreach in this area, especially again, 260 00:10:23,247 --> 00:10:24,540 this is cross-cultural, you know? 261 00:10:25,291 --> 00:10:26,667 Yes, they speak English here, 262 00:10:26,667 --> 00:10:27,668 but it is a different 263 00:10:27,668 --> 00:10:28,794 culture, it's a different place. 264 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,298 And you've already mentioned like the patience, 265 00:10:32,506 --> 00:10:33,466 faithfulness, those 266 00:10:33,466 --> 00:10:34,925 things, but practically speaking, 267 00:10:34,925 --> 00:10:35,926 what did it look like? 268 00:10:35,926 --> 00:10:38,387 Or I guess I should say, what does it look like 269 00:10:39,513 --> 00:10:40,931 in the work you all do here? 270 00:10:42,516 --> 00:10:45,186 Well, early on, we looked 271 00:10:45,186 --> 00:10:46,562 for something we could do 272 00:10:46,562 --> 00:10:50,066 with our hands, partially to develop, 273 00:10:50,274 --> 00:10:51,942 generate our own income so 274 00:10:51,942 --> 00:10:53,319 we can be self-supporting 275 00:10:53,319 --> 00:10:54,195 as much as possible. 276 00:10:55,654 --> 00:10:57,198 And also so we can 277 00:10:57,198 --> 00:10:59,909 interact with the local people. 278 00:11:01,369 --> 00:11:05,373 So interacting with them on a day-to-day basis, 279 00:11:06,123 --> 00:11:09,668 we were able to purchase a small store locally 280 00:11:09,835 --> 00:11:12,797 where many people come in every day, really. 281 00:11:13,839 --> 00:11:16,842 And so we, right away, we 282 00:11:16,842 --> 00:11:18,511 bought it from a local couple 283 00:11:18,511 --> 00:11:21,639 who was retiring and so it was a going business. 284 00:11:22,390 --> 00:11:24,517 But of course they sold tobacco. 285 00:11:25,393 --> 00:11:26,769 I'm not quite sure if they sold alcohol, 286 00:11:27,019 --> 00:11:28,062 but they were open Sundays. 287 00:11:29,188 --> 00:11:31,774 And so when we took it over, 288 00:11:32,233 --> 00:11:33,984 we of course took out all the tobacco 289 00:11:34,193 --> 00:11:36,404 and we started being closed on Sundays. 290 00:11:37,655 --> 00:11:38,656 It was a pretty big 291 00:11:38,656 --> 00:11:40,199 adjustment for the local community 292 00:11:40,533 --> 00:11:43,953 to accept that, but eventually they did. 293 00:11:44,412 --> 00:11:46,914 And of course it's a much bigger business now 294 00:11:46,914 --> 00:11:49,166 than it was when we started with it. 295 00:11:49,792 --> 00:11:52,461 And then with that, we have a stand 296 00:11:52,461 --> 00:11:54,130 with Christian books in it. 297 00:11:54,547 --> 00:11:57,508 And then later we were able to add a special room 298 00:11:57,842 --> 00:11:59,385 as a Christian bookstore as well. 299 00:12:00,261 --> 00:12:03,472 So to invite the local people in, 300 00:12:03,472 --> 00:12:07,601 they come in for their bread and cakes and so on. 301 00:12:08,227 --> 00:12:11,856 And they see a stand with Christian books on it. 302 00:12:12,398 --> 00:12:14,233 And if they look a little bit more, 303 00:12:14,233 --> 00:12:16,527 they'll see the room with a 304 00:12:16,527 --> 00:12:17,653 lot more books and Bibles. 305 00:12:18,529 --> 00:12:19,947 We also from the beginning 306 00:12:19,947 --> 00:12:22,408 started a Choice Books ministry 307 00:12:22,658 --> 00:12:24,493 where we not only sell the 308 00:12:24,493 --> 00:12:26,328 books here locally in our store, 309 00:12:26,328 --> 00:12:28,998 but we supply about 10 other 310 00:12:28,998 --> 00:12:30,833 places all around the country. 311 00:12:31,208 --> 00:12:32,793 Now that's interesting. Choice Books. 312 00:12:33,335 --> 00:12:34,545 I didn't know Choice Books was here. 313 00:12:35,337 --> 00:12:35,921 That's interesting. 314 00:12:36,213 --> 00:12:36,505 Okay. 315 00:12:37,423 --> 00:12:39,717 We just came from there a week or two ago. 316 00:12:40,384 --> 00:12:41,927 Every time we can, we go to Choice Books 317 00:12:41,927 --> 00:12:43,637 in Northern Virginia and 318 00:12:43,637 --> 00:12:45,014 pick out an order of books 319 00:12:45,347 --> 00:12:46,599 and have them sent over here. 320 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:50,603 So in that way, it's not just local, 321 00:12:50,603 --> 00:12:51,896 but we've developed good 322 00:12:51,896 --> 00:12:53,314 relationships with people 323 00:12:53,314 --> 00:12:55,149 in Dublin and Cork and Limerick 324 00:12:55,149 --> 00:12:57,067 and some of the bigger cities 325 00:12:57,067 --> 00:13:00,112 around and help supply them. 326 00:13:01,071 --> 00:13:02,156 They tend to be in 327 00:13:02,156 --> 00:13:04,200 Christian bookstores or churches 328 00:13:04,783 --> 00:13:07,077 rather than a store like Walmart. 329 00:13:07,453 --> 00:13:08,496 We don't have Walmart's here, 330 00:13:08,496 --> 00:13:11,874 but the general feeling here is, 331 00:13:11,874 --> 00:13:13,292 and this would go back to the culture, 332 00:13:13,292 --> 00:13:14,752 is that you don't mix your 333 00:13:14,752 --> 00:13:16,295 secular with your sacred. 334 00:13:17,254 --> 00:13:22,676 You go to church on Sunday and take care of that. 335 00:13:22,676 --> 00:13:23,511 Then the rest of the week, 336 00:13:23,511 --> 00:13:25,054 you live like everybody else. 337 00:13:25,971 --> 00:13:29,099 And a local person warned us that for us 338 00:13:29,099 --> 00:13:31,602 to put Christian books in our store 339 00:13:31,852 --> 00:13:33,604 where people come in for bread and milk, 340 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,065 they won't like that because 341 00:13:36,065 --> 00:13:37,983 you're sort of like pushing it 342 00:13:37,983 --> 00:13:39,860 down their throat and 343 00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:40,903 they don't like to see that. 344 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:42,196 They think we should keep 345 00:13:42,196 --> 00:13:44,323 that out of the business arena. 346 00:13:44,823 --> 00:13:46,700 And that just belongs to church on Sunday. 347 00:13:47,493 --> 00:13:51,580 So we appreciated that council, but we didn't, 348 00:13:51,580 --> 00:13:53,541 that's one area we didn't quite listen to them. 349 00:13:53,958 --> 00:13:55,334 And we went ahead and put it in anyway. 350 00:13:55,709 --> 00:13:57,920 And it doesn't affect them. 351 00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:58,796 They can walk right past 352 00:13:58,796 --> 00:14:00,214 and ignore it if they want to. 353 00:14:00,881 --> 00:14:03,008 But it is strategically 354 00:14:03,008 --> 00:14:04,593 right beside our coffee machines. 355 00:14:04,843 --> 00:14:05,886 So as they wait for their 356 00:14:05,886 --> 00:14:07,429 coffee, they're looking around 357 00:14:07,596 --> 00:14:08,847 and they see these books. 358 00:14:09,890 --> 00:14:11,308 And many people do pick 359 00:14:11,308 --> 00:14:12,810 them up and look through them 360 00:14:13,477 --> 00:14:14,687 and buy them off of there. 361 00:14:15,604 --> 00:14:16,772 How we're engaging. 362 00:14:17,523 --> 00:14:22,152 Another way was trying to develop occasions 363 00:14:22,653 --> 00:14:23,988 to invite people in. 364 00:14:24,655 --> 00:14:26,198 Now we do that in our own homes, 365 00:14:26,657 --> 00:14:29,577 but we also do as a church quite early on. 366 00:14:30,035 --> 00:14:33,330 We had once a year, we have a dinner for, 367 00:14:33,831 --> 00:14:35,249 we started with this widows. 368 00:14:35,249 --> 00:14:36,959 We can do a number of elderly widows. 369 00:14:38,419 --> 00:14:39,878 So we invite them for, make 370 00:14:39,878 --> 00:14:41,171 it a real special occasion, 371 00:14:41,797 --> 00:14:45,134 maybe in October, November, before Christmas, 372 00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:47,428 festive occasion. 373 00:14:48,387 --> 00:14:50,848 And so that has grown. 374 00:14:51,098 --> 00:14:51,807 We still do that. 375 00:14:51,807 --> 00:14:53,684 We just did it a week or two ago. 376 00:14:54,059 --> 00:14:56,270 And I don't know, 60 some 377 00:14:56,270 --> 00:14:57,479 people maybe who come in. 378 00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:59,481 And that's from all around. 379 00:14:59,940 --> 00:15:02,735 And it's not only widows anymore, any elderly 380 00:15:03,485 --> 00:15:04,820 or really good local 381 00:15:04,820 --> 00:15:07,239 neighbors, friends who come in 382 00:15:07,239 --> 00:15:09,199 and we'll have a dinner 383 00:15:09,575 --> 00:15:13,203 and we'll have the young people sing a few songs. 384 00:15:13,579 --> 00:15:16,040 And one thing they comment 385 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,541 on is there's no alcohol. 386 00:15:18,292 --> 00:15:19,835 And to them, that's very 387 00:15:19,835 --> 00:15:22,421 strange to have a formal dinner 388 00:15:22,421 --> 00:15:24,173 and not have alcohol with it, 389 00:15:24,715 --> 00:15:27,509 but they know that we just won't have that. 390 00:15:28,969 --> 00:15:30,804 We've also had quite a few neighborhood, 391 00:15:31,555 --> 00:15:34,391 like a summer evening, we'll have a barbecue 392 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,936 and invite all the local neighbors along the road 393 00:15:38,103 --> 00:15:40,564 where we live or one of the other families 394 00:15:40,939 --> 00:15:44,276 and have them come in for an evening meal 395 00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:45,861 and just sit around and outside. 396 00:15:46,987 --> 00:15:48,364 It's a bit rare evenings 397 00:15:48,364 --> 00:15:50,199 here, generally almost too cool 398 00:15:50,282 --> 00:15:52,284 for to sit outside, but 399 00:15:52,284 --> 00:15:54,411 we bundle up if we have to. 400 00:15:56,121 --> 00:16:00,459 So just to try to look for occasions like that 401 00:16:00,459 --> 00:16:02,628 when we can bring them in 402 00:16:02,628 --> 00:16:03,921 without a church service 403 00:16:03,921 --> 00:16:05,506 that we're not preaching at them, 404 00:16:06,590 --> 00:16:08,092 but did love the singing. 405 00:16:08,967 --> 00:16:10,552 And then every year before Christmas, 406 00:16:10,552 --> 00:16:13,180 we'll have a Christmas carol service with again, 407 00:16:13,180 --> 00:16:14,556 the young people and the school children 408 00:16:15,182 --> 00:16:16,975 singing quite a number of songs 409 00:16:17,142 --> 00:16:19,812 and a lot of people like to come for that. 410 00:16:20,854 --> 00:16:23,107 We've had Oasis Chorale here several times 411 00:16:23,565 --> 00:16:25,901 with chorales from the States who come 412 00:16:25,901 --> 00:16:29,488 and then we'll try to have a program here, 413 00:16:29,488 --> 00:16:31,573 but also travel around in some other cities 414 00:16:31,782 --> 00:16:33,367 and churches and programs. 415 00:16:33,659 --> 00:16:36,704 So just various ways like that to reach out 416 00:16:37,454 --> 00:16:38,330 to the local people. 417 00:16:39,873 --> 00:16:41,291 There's definitely 418 00:16:41,291 --> 00:16:44,044 intentionality I'm hearing here. 419 00:16:44,461 --> 00:16:45,879 And we've been in the 420 00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:47,589 community here a couple of days now 421 00:16:47,589 --> 00:16:50,676 and I've been struck by numerous people I've met 422 00:16:50,884 --> 00:16:52,094 or am going to meet here soon 423 00:16:52,469 --> 00:16:54,763 that have come from the local community 424 00:16:54,763 --> 00:16:58,559 or from general area that have joined. 425 00:16:59,101 --> 00:17:02,229 And that's telling me, you're doing something. 426 00:17:02,354 --> 00:17:04,940 That doesn't just happen for no reason. 427 00:17:06,233 --> 00:17:09,194 People finding you and engaging with your church 428 00:17:09,194 --> 00:17:10,154 and what's happening here. 429 00:17:10,779 --> 00:17:12,156 Which brings me to another question 430 00:17:12,156 --> 00:17:14,575 I think is one maybe we all wrestle with. 431 00:17:14,825 --> 00:17:16,577 And that's the topic of welcoming seekers. 432 00:17:17,035 --> 00:17:18,370 So people that are seeking, 433 00:17:18,579 --> 00:17:20,497 maybe they're starting to attend, 434 00:17:21,039 --> 00:17:22,291 whatever the case may be. 435 00:17:22,499 --> 00:17:23,876 What is some practical advice 436 00:17:23,876 --> 00:17:25,669 you would have for our people 437 00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:26,920 as we think about welcoming 438 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,255 seekers into our churches? 439 00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:29,923 And perhaps maybe have a 440 00:17:29,923 --> 00:17:31,383 story to illustrate that as well. 441 00:17:32,342 --> 00:17:35,679 Yes, well, hospitality is a big part of it. 442 00:17:37,806 --> 00:17:39,558 I guess Amish-Mennonites 443 00:17:39,558 --> 00:17:40,934 are known for their good cooking 444 00:17:41,435 --> 00:17:44,480 and it's one thing we can offer to people 445 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,482 and really may be 446 00:17:46,482 --> 00:17:50,235 surprised that many local people 447 00:17:50,319 --> 00:17:51,695 wouldn't have quite the 448 00:17:51,695 --> 00:17:54,239 experience of cooking a big meal 449 00:17:54,323 --> 00:17:56,366 like we would be used to. 450 00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,370 So to invite people in and share a good meal 451 00:18:00,496 --> 00:18:03,248 or it can be a simple cup of tea as well. 452 00:18:03,248 --> 00:18:04,541 It doesn't always have to be a meal. 453 00:18:05,918 --> 00:18:11,298 But hospitality to welcome them into our homes. 454 00:18:12,299 --> 00:18:16,970 Also to learn to understand their culture. 455 00:18:19,014 --> 00:18:22,559 I don't think Americans often realize 456 00:18:22,810 --> 00:18:29,566 how we come across to people of other countries. 457 00:18:31,652 --> 00:18:33,320 If you've always lived in the States, 458 00:18:33,612 --> 00:18:34,488 you sort of feel like 459 00:18:34,488 --> 00:18:36,156 America's the center of the world 460 00:18:36,573 --> 00:18:38,450 and everybody else is foreign. 461 00:18:40,077 --> 00:18:44,790 And so to really work on that, 462 00:18:45,415 --> 00:18:49,336 to recognize that to other people, 463 00:18:49,795 --> 00:18:52,172 their place of growing up 464 00:18:52,172 --> 00:18:53,549 is the center of the world. 465 00:18:53,590 --> 00:18:57,594 And we always have to work on this 466 00:18:57,594 --> 00:19:00,973 to not be insensitive in remarks that we make. 467 00:19:02,349 --> 00:19:06,520 Some people come and just sort of make fun of, 468 00:19:06,728 --> 00:19:08,480 you drive on the wrong side of the road. 469 00:19:08,689 --> 00:19:10,107 Why are you driving the wrong side of the road? 470 00:19:11,108 --> 00:19:13,694 Well, it's not really the wrong side of the road. 471 00:19:13,694 --> 00:19:14,987 It's the left side and 472 00:19:14,987 --> 00:19:16,405 it's different from America, 473 00:19:16,405 --> 00:19:19,533 but you go to England or even Kenya, 474 00:19:20,158 --> 00:19:21,159 a lot of other countries 475 00:19:21,159 --> 00:19:22,578 drive on the left side too. 476 00:19:23,620 --> 00:19:26,290 So one thing that we 477 00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:27,749 would say in welcoming seekers 478 00:19:27,958 --> 00:19:30,586 is to be sensitive to their culture 479 00:19:31,044 --> 00:19:35,299 and respect them for who they are 480 00:19:35,465 --> 00:19:40,470 and their sensitivities and Ireland especially 481 00:19:40,721 --> 00:19:44,850 is... Irish people have a long memory. 482 00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:47,519 And for many years, 483 00:19:47,811 --> 00:19:49,271 they were ruled and 484 00:19:49,271 --> 00:19:50,939 oppressed by the British Empire 485 00:19:51,648 --> 00:19:53,192 and they were treated very cruelly. 486 00:19:53,275 --> 00:19:54,484 There's no question about that. 487 00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:56,528 The potato famine, if you 488 00:19:56,528 --> 00:19:58,196 want to do any Irish history 489 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,783 study is very much in the people's minds 490 00:20:02,034 --> 00:20:04,703 still. The blight came through, 491 00:20:04,703 --> 00:20:06,663 people lived on potatoes basically. 492 00:20:08,123 --> 00:20:09,374 And the potato blight came 493 00:20:09,374 --> 00:20:10,959 through and killed the potatoes. 494 00:20:11,293 --> 00:20:12,544 So the Irish people 495 00:20:12,544 --> 00:20:14,379 starved, they had nothing to eat. 496 00:20:15,422 --> 00:20:18,258 But the thing is the English owned the land. 497 00:20:19,092 --> 00:20:21,011 They were Protestant and they made it illegal 498 00:20:21,303 --> 00:20:22,846 for a Catholic to own any land. 499 00:20:23,347 --> 00:20:25,349 So they basically had the Irish as slaves 500 00:20:26,183 --> 00:20:28,852 and they didn't share their 501 00:20:28,852 --> 00:20:30,687 excess, their food with them. 502 00:20:30,979 --> 00:20:33,482 So over a million people died 503 00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:36,777 and another million emigrated to America 504 00:20:36,777 --> 00:20:37,611 and other countries. 505 00:20:38,612 --> 00:20:40,113 Irish people have that in their mind 506 00:20:40,113 --> 00:20:44,076 and it's not only history because to this day, 507 00:20:44,368 --> 00:20:46,662 Northern Ireland belongs to England. 508 00:20:47,371 --> 00:20:51,083 The six Northern most counties on this island 509 00:20:51,917 --> 00:20:53,794 are still British in a 510 00:20:53,794 --> 00:20:55,712 country called Northern Ireland. 511 00:20:55,712 --> 00:20:57,756 It doesn't mean just the North of Ireland, 512 00:20:57,756 --> 00:20:59,383 it's actually a separate country. 513 00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:02,719 And so even the present 514 00:21:02,719 --> 00:21:05,681 generation has a difficult time. 515 00:21:07,015 --> 00:21:07,933 Some people especially 516 00:21:07,933 --> 00:21:11,019 forgetting that or laying that down 517 00:21:12,020 --> 00:21:16,984 and we have to be careful that we don't 518 00:21:17,901 --> 00:21:22,280 don't feed that or say things that make them 519 00:21:23,532 --> 00:21:26,243 feel that more painfully again. 520 00:21:28,078 --> 00:21:30,664 Even in the church, if you have people 521 00:21:30,664 --> 00:21:33,291 of British background and of Irish background, 522 00:21:33,875 --> 00:21:36,378 it can be very difficult to lay down 523 00:21:36,461 --> 00:21:39,464 that ancient animosity between the two 524 00:21:40,007 --> 00:21:41,299 because it goes back generations. 525 00:21:42,259 --> 00:21:44,011 And like I say, it's not only history 526 00:21:44,219 --> 00:21:46,263 because it's still alive in Northern Ireland 527 00:21:46,972 --> 00:21:49,141 and there's a strong push from the Irish 528 00:21:49,391 --> 00:21:51,143 to absorb those six counties 529 00:21:51,143 --> 00:21:53,103 into the Republic of Ireland 530 00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:55,814 where we are here and let 531 00:21:55,814 --> 00:21:56,773 the British go to England 532 00:21:57,024 --> 00:21:58,191 where they belong and 533 00:21:58,191 --> 00:22:01,028 make it all one country here. 534 00:22:01,820 --> 00:22:04,031 So it's actually an active issue. 535 00:22:04,239 --> 00:22:06,867 So politically, you read a lot about it. 536 00:22:06,867 --> 00:22:08,577 Some parties are really pushing for that. 537 00:22:09,327 --> 00:22:11,079 So sensitivity to their culture 538 00:22:11,288 --> 00:22:13,915 is one thing that's very important. 539 00:22:15,167 --> 00:22:17,961 Sometimes ministers even very well meaning 540 00:22:17,961 --> 00:22:21,548 can say things that are 541 00:22:21,548 --> 00:22:23,175 offensive to Irish people. 542 00:22:24,092 --> 00:22:26,636 So try to avoid doing that. 543 00:22:27,512 --> 00:22:30,640 You wouldn't want to across the pulpit talk about 544 00:22:31,641 --> 00:22:34,519 going hunting, a kind of, I 545 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:36,188 know one minister who gave it. 546 00:22:36,646 --> 00:22:38,982 We had a good example of trapping some animals. 547 00:22:39,858 --> 00:22:42,277 Well in Ireland, trapping or hunting, 548 00:22:42,819 --> 00:22:44,279 there's some hunting but 549 00:22:44,279 --> 00:22:46,782 guns are mostly outlawed. 550 00:22:47,699 --> 00:22:49,159 And so there's a real 551 00:22:49,159 --> 00:22:53,330 sensitive spot for any sport like that. 552 00:22:53,622 --> 00:22:56,166 And Americans are known for being gung ho 553 00:22:56,291 --> 00:22:57,542 on those things. 554 00:22:58,794 --> 00:22:58,835 (laughing) 555 00:22:58,835 --> 00:23:02,422 So there's a whole range of things like that. 556 00:23:04,174 --> 00:23:07,344 It's kind of like entering a culture as a learner 557 00:23:07,427 --> 00:23:11,056 or humbly, perhaps maybe not assuming 558 00:23:12,557 --> 00:23:14,059 oh because this is the way we do things 559 00:23:14,059 --> 00:23:15,310 and obviously this is the 560 00:23:15,310 --> 00:23:16,520 way everybody else is too. 561 00:23:17,020 --> 00:23:17,479 That's right. 562 00:23:17,771 --> 00:23:18,647 It's not. It's not. 563 00:23:19,189 --> 00:23:22,526 The hunting one, I wouldn't have thought of that. 564 00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:24,319 But now that you say it's like oh yeah, 565 00:23:25,112 --> 00:23:26,238 obviously that makes sense. 566 00:23:28,532 --> 00:23:30,450 And I think for people listening to this, 567 00:23:31,326 --> 00:23:33,120 as they interact with their neighbors 568 00:23:33,370 --> 00:23:35,956 or whoever it is, they're doing outreach to. 569 00:23:36,248 --> 00:23:39,000 I think the same principles apply anywhere. 570 00:23:39,126 --> 00:23:39,835 Yes, that's true. 571 00:23:39,835 --> 00:23:40,544 We're dealing with humans. 572 00:23:42,045 --> 00:23:42,712 Which is another question 573 00:23:42,712 --> 00:23:43,839 I wanted to ask you too. 574 00:23:44,881 --> 00:23:46,800 I'm guessing..I'm sure, 575 00:23:47,551 --> 00:23:49,636 quite a few people listening to this podcast 576 00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:51,096 are working in some type 577 00:23:51,096 --> 00:23:53,140 of cross-cultural ministry 578 00:23:53,140 --> 00:23:56,852 whether that's just the immigrant neighbors 579 00:23:56,852 --> 00:23:58,228 that they might have or maybe they're 580 00:23:58,436 --> 00:24:00,730 on the mission field somewhere or whatever. 581 00:24:00,730 --> 00:24:01,731 There's lots of different ways. 582 00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:03,650 What's some advice you would give them 583 00:24:03,817 --> 00:24:04,860 based on your experience 584 00:24:04,860 --> 00:24:06,027 working cross-culturally, 585 00:24:06,027 --> 00:24:07,195 what would you say to those people? 586 00:24:08,196 --> 00:24:09,364 Well it would be similar to 587 00:24:09,364 --> 00:24:12,534 what we've been talking about. 588 00:24:12,742 --> 00:24:16,079 Here is to learn the things that, 589 00:24:16,872 --> 00:24:20,083 try to learn from them and be humble, yes. 590 00:24:20,542 --> 00:24:23,211 Be humble that we don't have all the answers 591 00:24:23,670 --> 00:24:26,715 and we're just trying to learn as well. 592 00:24:28,133 --> 00:24:30,302 And try to put yourself in their shoes, 593 00:24:30,677 --> 00:24:33,930 how we would feel if people come to us 594 00:24:33,930 --> 00:24:35,056 like we're coming to them. 595 00:24:36,308 --> 00:24:38,935 Try to learn what's important to them 596 00:24:39,477 --> 00:24:43,023 and both negative and positive. 597 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,067 Since what they like and what they don't like 598 00:24:46,067 --> 00:24:51,781 to be their friend really is to listen to them, 599 00:24:52,032 --> 00:24:52,991 give a listening ear. 600 00:24:54,951 --> 00:24:57,996 This is what we would have 601 00:24:57,996 --> 00:25:00,290 picked up from here I suppose. 602 00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:03,752 You mentioned stories in the previous question. 603 00:25:04,336 --> 00:25:06,838 I'd like to share this as an example. 604 00:25:07,923 --> 00:25:10,217 In the cultural area, a 605 00:25:10,217 --> 00:25:12,093 local lady who was a good friend 606 00:25:12,093 --> 00:25:17,265 of ours traveled to America and she went to visit 607 00:25:17,766 --> 00:25:25,690 some plain people, Amish-Mennonite people, who were connected 608 00:25:25,690 --> 00:25:26,900 with people here in a way. 609 00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:28,360 They were invited to somebody's home. 610 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:30,153 So they were there and she 611 00:25:30,153 --> 00:25:31,196 was telling us about this 612 00:25:31,404 --> 00:25:33,365 after she came back and she 613 00:25:33,365 --> 00:25:34,950 said they came to this house 614 00:25:35,158 --> 00:25:37,410 and they went in and sat down and visited 615 00:25:37,619 --> 00:25:40,622 and the people never offered them a cup of tea. 616 00:25:41,331 --> 00:25:44,626 And she said she felt they were judging her 617 00:25:44,751 --> 00:25:47,420 because she's not plain like they are. 618 00:25:47,921 --> 00:25:49,798 And she was very offended by that, 619 00:25:49,798 --> 00:25:51,591 that there was no cup of tea offered. 620 00:25:52,425 --> 00:25:53,885 Well here that's just what 621 00:25:53,885 --> 00:25:55,720 you do when someone comes in 622 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,055 and sits down to talk and 623 00:25:57,055 --> 00:25:58,682 sometimes even a business, 624 00:25:59,557 --> 00:26:01,768 somebody comes to buy a car or something 625 00:26:01,768 --> 00:26:03,395 and you need to sit down and talk about it. 626 00:26:03,770 --> 00:26:05,063 Always offer a cup of tea 627 00:26:05,063 --> 00:26:06,273 is just about the first thing 628 00:26:06,273 --> 00:26:09,359 you offer, tea or coffee, usually tea. 629 00:26:10,485 --> 00:26:12,362 So she was offended 630 00:26:12,362 --> 00:26:14,322 because, and she didn't understand 631 00:26:14,572 --> 00:26:17,701 that that's the American way you might offer 632 00:26:17,701 --> 00:26:19,369 a glass of water maybe or 633 00:26:19,369 --> 00:26:21,371 often don't even really think 634 00:26:21,371 --> 00:26:22,205 about doing that. 635 00:26:23,081 --> 00:26:29,421 And so learning to value their culture 636 00:26:29,421 --> 00:26:31,631 and what is important to 637 00:26:31,631 --> 00:26:35,468 them would be part of the answer 638 00:26:35,593 --> 00:26:36,678 to your question I think. 639 00:26:37,721 --> 00:26:40,640 And then not to, like I was 640 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:41,683 saying earlier about the church, 641 00:26:42,392 --> 00:26:44,811 not to quickly feel like 642 00:26:44,811 --> 00:26:48,773 we need to change our ways 643 00:26:49,733 --> 00:26:54,029 to attract them or to keep them. 644 00:26:55,864 --> 00:26:58,033 To me that's different than offering cup of tea 645 00:26:58,241 --> 00:27:01,369 or being sensitive to things that we might say 646 00:27:01,369 --> 00:27:03,246 that offend them, all of 647 00:27:03,246 --> 00:27:05,415 those things we really need to do. 648 00:27:05,707 --> 00:27:07,500 But then to change the way we 649 00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:09,044 live out the Christian life, 650 00:27:10,003 --> 00:27:11,546 that's sort of in a different category 651 00:27:11,838 --> 00:27:14,799 as I would understand it, the way we do church, 652 00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:15,300 so to speak. 653 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,010 There too we can do some. 654 00:27:17,886 --> 00:27:20,180 We have our practice in the 655 00:27:20,180 --> 00:27:21,723 past and in many plain churches 656 00:27:22,307 --> 00:27:23,600 is when you kneel in prayer, 657 00:27:24,893 --> 00:27:27,854 you turn around and kneel. 658 00:27:28,772 --> 00:27:30,106 I don't know if you understand what I mean, 659 00:27:30,357 --> 00:27:32,442 on the, you kneel on the floor, of course, 660 00:27:32,442 --> 00:27:33,360 rest your hands on the 661 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:34,277 bench where you were sitting. 662 00:27:35,236 --> 00:27:36,363 Well, that seemed very 663 00:27:36,363 --> 00:27:37,906 strange to the people here. 664 00:27:38,198 --> 00:27:40,241 And so we made that 665 00:27:40,241 --> 00:27:41,493 adjustment, that accommodation 666 00:27:41,743 --> 00:27:45,038 and we kneel facing forward toward the platform, 667 00:27:45,038 --> 00:27:46,039 toward the speaker and the front. 668 00:27:47,415 --> 00:27:50,085 We feel you can make accommodations like that, 669 00:27:50,126 --> 00:27:52,128 that would be respecting 670 00:27:52,128 --> 00:27:54,297 the culture wherever we can, 671 00:27:54,631 --> 00:27:58,635 that doesn't violate what 672 00:27:58,635 --> 00:27:59,719 we believe is important. 673 00:28:00,178 --> 00:28:02,680 We will look for things like that that we can do. 674 00:28:03,431 --> 00:28:05,141 We start our church services a little later. 675 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,852 Many churches here don't start till 11 o'clock 676 00:28:07,852 --> 00:28:08,728 on a Sunday morning. 677 00:28:10,063 --> 00:28:12,482 What is it often 9:30, I think, in the States? 678 00:28:13,024 --> 00:28:13,441 Many times. 679 00:28:13,775 --> 00:28:15,485 And that would just seem 680 00:28:15,485 --> 00:28:16,861 very strange to people here. 681 00:28:17,529 --> 00:28:20,490 So we started 10:30, we tried 682 00:28:20,490 --> 00:28:21,699 to sort of hit a middle ground 683 00:28:21,783 --> 00:28:25,745 but accommodations like that, we can make 684 00:28:26,079 --> 00:28:29,165 and try to make it a bit 685 00:28:29,165 --> 00:28:31,000 more like the culture here 686 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:31,626 where we can. 687 00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:36,423 So as we wrap this episode up 688 00:28:36,423 --> 00:28:38,842 and we're thinking about reaching out 689 00:28:38,842 --> 00:28:41,177 to those cross-culturally or missions, 690 00:28:41,719 --> 00:28:43,638 maybe someone listening to this is working 691 00:28:43,638 --> 00:28:44,931 with their neighbors that 692 00:28:44,931 --> 00:28:46,141 are refugees, et cetera. 693 00:28:47,142 --> 00:28:49,102 Is there any encouragement or anything else 694 00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:51,980 you would like to leave with the listeners 695 00:28:52,981 --> 00:28:54,441 based on what we've been talking about today? 696 00:28:56,443 --> 00:28:58,236 Can't really think of, I think we've covered 697 00:28:58,236 --> 00:28:59,195 most of the bases. 698 00:29:01,406 --> 00:29:04,909 The hospitality is important to welcome them in, 699 00:29:05,994 --> 00:29:07,078 give a listening ear, 700 00:29:07,495 --> 00:29:09,038 especially if it would be refugees. 701 00:29:11,124 --> 00:29:14,085 They've often been traumatized and gone through 702 00:29:14,627 --> 00:29:15,753 difficult experiences. 703 00:29:17,255 --> 00:29:20,341 If I can just give you another quick story 704 00:29:20,341 --> 00:29:23,011 of a local lady that might, I don't know, 705 00:29:23,011 --> 00:29:25,346 would it quite fit that, but it might. 706 00:29:26,556 --> 00:29:30,101 She was a Jehovah's Witness and she visited one 707 00:29:30,101 --> 00:29:33,646 of our families and started noticing some things 708 00:29:33,646 --> 00:29:37,525 that she liked in that family and started coming 709 00:29:37,734 --> 00:29:38,693 with her questions, 710 00:29:39,527 --> 00:29:42,405 wondering whether we have something 711 00:29:42,572 --> 00:29:43,740 that she doesn't. 712 00:29:44,657 --> 00:29:46,493 And so she started coming to our house 713 00:29:46,951 --> 00:29:50,121 and so for several years she would come, 714 00:29:50,371 --> 00:29:53,541 every Monday evening, she studied the Bible 715 00:29:53,958 --> 00:29:57,045 with the church she was with, but they taught her 716 00:29:57,045 --> 00:29:59,923 that they're the only right church and yet 717 00:30:00,423 --> 00:30:00,965 there were just some 718 00:30:00,965 --> 00:30:02,342 things that didn't quite line up 719 00:30:02,342 --> 00:30:04,511 in her way of thinking. 720 00:30:05,929 --> 00:30:09,474 And so night after night she would come 721 00:30:10,016 --> 00:30:14,812 and this is what she would say is that "My church 722 00:30:15,021 --> 00:30:18,149 says they are right and you are wrong. 723 00:30:18,858 --> 00:30:19,943 You are saying you are 724 00:30:19,943 --> 00:30:21,945 right and my church is wrong. 725 00:30:22,445 --> 00:30:24,864 How can I know who is right? 726 00:30:25,573 --> 00:30:26,866 I want what's right." 727 00:30:28,660 --> 00:30:31,788 And she had tears streaming down her face. 728 00:30:32,705 --> 00:30:35,917 She wanted what was right in a very desperate way. 729 00:30:37,335 --> 00:30:39,879 How could we persuade her that we are right 730 00:30:40,088 --> 00:30:42,590 and the church is wrong, we couldn't, 731 00:30:43,174 --> 00:30:45,635 but we just assured her that God will show her 732 00:30:46,344 --> 00:30:47,595 as she desperately, as she 733 00:30:47,595 --> 00:30:49,305 sincerely wants the truth. 734 00:30:50,223 --> 00:30:53,226 And at first she could not accept a Bible from us 735 00:30:53,351 --> 00:30:54,561 because they had their own Bibles 736 00:30:54,561 --> 00:30:57,105 and they won't look at any other translation. 737 00:30:58,022 --> 00:30:59,274 But the day came when she 738 00:30:59,274 --> 00:31:01,276 finally did accept a Bible 739 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,070 that was not a Jehovah's Witness Bible. 740 00:31:04,487 --> 00:31:06,030 And once she started reading that, 741 00:31:06,573 --> 00:31:09,659 it started to open her eyes till the day came 742 00:31:10,326 --> 00:31:12,161 and she gave her heart to the Lord. 743 00:31:13,162 --> 00:31:14,622 She is a Christian to this day. 744 00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:16,916 So it took years. 745 00:31:17,917 --> 00:31:20,169 And if you, so the idea of 746 00:31:20,169 --> 00:31:21,879 patience there comes in again, 747 00:31:22,589 --> 00:31:26,884 to just, you can't force it, you can't rush it, 748 00:31:27,343 --> 00:31:31,264 but to be a friend and give a listening ear 749 00:31:32,098 --> 00:31:36,311 and many cups of tea or whatever they like 750 00:31:37,061 --> 00:31:39,689 and just be a genuine friend. 751 00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:42,358 That's about the best I could say, I guess. 752 00:31:42,859 --> 00:31:43,860 And point them to the Lord, 753 00:31:44,485 --> 00:31:47,196 but you don't always start with a Bible verse 754 00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:49,032 or a Bible or a tract, you know, 755 00:31:49,032 --> 00:31:52,452 it can be the cup of tea, the friendship 756 00:31:52,660 --> 00:31:55,788 that they feel first and then that can. 757 00:31:56,914 --> 00:31:57,915 It's a very good book written, 758 00:31:58,207 --> 00:32:00,001 The Gospel Comes with a House Key. 759 00:32:00,001 --> 00:32:01,502 Have you seen that? Yes, I've read it. 760 00:32:01,502 --> 00:32:02,503 Oh, it's excellent, yeah. 761 00:32:02,962 --> 00:32:03,671 That's the idea. 762 00:32:04,088 --> 00:32:04,714 Mm-hmm. 763 00:32:05,757 --> 00:32:07,800 That's a powerful note. 764 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,345 It is testimony to. Yeah. 765 00:32:10,970 --> 00:32:12,388 That lady you're talking about there, 766 00:32:12,972 --> 00:32:14,223 God will show you, right? 767 00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:16,559 And there's that verse, If you seek, you'll find. 768 00:32:17,060 --> 00:32:18,519 Jesus is very clear about that. 769 00:32:18,519 --> 00:32:20,605 If you're seeking, you'll find. 770 00:32:21,147 --> 00:32:22,857 And pointing people to that 771 00:32:22,857 --> 00:32:24,442 and reminding them of that. 772 00:32:24,859 --> 00:32:26,194 That's a powerful note to end on. 773 00:32:26,402 --> 00:32:27,987 Thank you, Dan, for the 774 00:32:27,987 --> 00:32:29,238 28 years you've lived here 775 00:32:29,238 --> 00:32:31,157 and the stories you've shared with us today. 776 00:32:32,241 --> 00:32:33,534 I think there's a lot that 777 00:32:33,534 --> 00:32:35,286 we can learn from your story. 778 00:32:35,286 --> 00:32:35,995 So thank you for sharing. 779 00:32:36,454 --> 00:32:36,746 Thank you. 780 00:32:38,456 --> 00:32:40,875 Thanks for listening to this episode with Dan. 781 00:32:41,125 --> 00:32:42,126 If you found this interesting, 782 00:32:42,126 --> 00:32:44,128 you should check out this other episode we did 783 00:32:44,128 --> 00:32:46,631 with Allen Roth on the subject of church planting. 784 00:32:46,839 --> 00:32:47,882 You can find that linked in 785 00:32:47,882 --> 00:32:49,300 the description down below. 786 00:32:49,926 --> 00:32:50,968 And of course, you can find 787 00:32:50,968 --> 00:32:52,345 all the content we've made 788 00:32:52,595 --> 00:32:55,556 on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org. 789 00:32:55,807 --> 00:32:57,517 We also have a monthly email newsletter, 790 00:32:57,517 --> 00:32:59,352 which you can subscribe to on the website. 791 00:33:00,061 --> 00:33:00,937 Thanks again for listening 792 00:33:01,354 --> 00:33:02,772 and we'll see you in the next episode.