I've always said it's a bunch of little numbers that up to a really big number.

That's ultimately what we're trying to validate when we're looking at Value Engineering.

It's what can you remove, reduce or defer?

Tyler, not too much.

A little chilly here in New Jersey.

I think 13 last night.

I woke up the other day.

I'm not a guy that checks the weather, literally ever if it's raining, like I leave and I'm like, oh, it's raining.

And I, for some reason, decided at the age of 37 that I should check the weather before I leave the house today, getting old, and it said nine degrees.

And I was like, Man, I'm glad I checked the weather.

I wasn't planning on bringing a sweatshirt, and I was freezing.

I don't do well in the cold.

I wish, well, good thing you live in Boston.

Yeah, I feel like my circulation sucks, like my toes, my feet get real cold, my hands get real cold.

But I also don't dress very well for the weather.

So I think that might be, actually, that's probably what the issue is.

And, yeah, I don't know you better get used to it, because I feel winners just starting.

So it's definitely not going to get better.

No, I know that.

Yeah, I'm and I don't know if I'll actually, we went out the other night and I pulled out my I have, like, a double layer, like ski jacket, and Meg's like, whoa.

I'm like, I know.

I haven't worn this in like, eight years.

She goes, Why are you wearing I'm like, It's nine degrees out.

Yeah.

She goes, I know, but you never wear a proper coat.

I'm like, today, I do, yeah, I've been layering working outside recently, which has been good, but yesterday, yesterday was, what do you do with your hands?

So when it gets really cold like yesterday, I actually wear my winter dirt bike gloves, because they're they're a little thicker, but you also still have some dexterity.

Got it.

So most of the time I'm not wearing gloves, and it's not bad.

If there's a little bit of sunshine you're actually doing work, you stay warm enough.

But like yesterday, I was just doing kind of BS and hanging a storm door and little bit of trim here and there, and kind of in between, inside and outside.

So I had to wear, actually, have a pair right here.

Yeah, they're bright, but, like, they're, they're, like, normal gloves, but then they just have a little bit of extra, like, wind protection, but like, normal, yeah.

And I'm good until, I'm usually good on that job until like three o'clock, and then the sun goes over the house, yeah?

And it starts to get cold, so I'm normally good.

But if I have to, it's, it's those gloves.

I felt that they work the best.

There's construction gloves.

I feel like, just don't do shit.

Now I bought, I bought, like, years ago when I was doing a deck, and it was the same situation.

There was never sun in the backyard, and I just, I was out there using my hands, and I'm like, my hands, I can't I kept sitting, I kept sitting in my truck.

I'm like, I can't move my hands.

And I end up buying these, I think they were ski gloves, but they essentially had this, like, wire coil that went around each finger, yeah, and they were same thing.

I think I actually took the ski glove out and I just had the the insert that was battery powered.

So I had this, like, I think it was like, three double A's, like, strapped to my wrist, yeah, and and then I put, you know, work gloves over it, and I'm, like, that actually worked great.

And then in my feet, my feet get freezing, and I just, I'm, I'm an idiot with this.

Like, I don't buy insulated boots.

I should, because, hey, either.

And so I end up, I end up using those, like, toe warmers, and I put them underneath my toes, or I'll put them, like on top, or both, like sandwich toes, and then I just stuff my feet in my boots.

Rachel's been trying to sell me on them.

She bought like, a bunch at Costco, and I'm like, I'm not bringing them.

Once I bring them, I feel like I'm conceding to the cold weather.

But one other tip for people that does help, and I've used this from riding dirt bikes as well, but you can just run like latex gloves and then a thinner glove over top of it.

So like, the latex glove keeps the wind off, and then also, like, does keep a lot of heat in your hands, just from, like, not allowing sweat to get out, interesting, and then, like, a thinner glove over top, like latex, like Doctor gloves, yeah?

Or you're like, yeah, like the Yeah, latex, yeah, yeah, they keep all the wind off.

So like, when it gets cold riding my dirt bike, we'll run them underneath, like a normal glove, I never thought, just keeps the wind off and keeps a lot of the heat in your hands.

But then you can run the thinner gloves.

You can still feel stuff.

I wonder if they make latex socks.

Oh, probably like with the toes, just run the glove.

I feel like that's something my kid would do, like, put the gloves on his feet.

Look at my feet.

That's funny.

Um, well, there's a more productive podcast today.

You've lasted this long, there's a much more productive podcast today that's that's going to help you out with with business.

We wrap up the pre construction conversation quickly at the beginning, because there's a couple of things that we had not touched on.

Then we dig into transparency with numbers, and then also ensuring that you are operating a business that suits your needs but creates profitability and sustainability while not just forcing your program down your clients throats, which I think there's a balance there.

So, yeah, I think it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a good conversation.

Productive.

We're kind of all over the map on this one, but I hope that everyone enjoys it.

Let's get into it.

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Dude.

Just real quick note on that i i We had hockey the other day, because we have hockey every day.

Yeah.

So on the weekend, I woke up, put my harness pants on, like, I'm gonna be at the rink.

I got to stay warm.

I'm there all day, and I'm trying to think where we went later, but we were at home, and I'm like, Dude, I'm sweating.

And Meg's like, why are you sweating?

I'm like, These pants are so warm for inside.

She's like, why are you wearing them?

I'm like, because we had hockey this morning.

She goes, oh.

I'm like, yeah, they're, they're, I know I wear them at work, but they're also my now, my dedicated hockey pants.

Yeah, I feel like my house is always so cold, so it doesn't bother me.

No, I was sweating t shirt and pants.

I a silent it is very closely here.

We just celebrated Pearl Harbor Day.

My my family gets so pissed at me all the time because I'm like, Pearl Harbor Day is coming.

So back story and like you can.

Just what in sick in sixth grade.

I don't know why.

Miss Gillen just made us remember and memorize when Pearl Harbor Day was.

I don't know why, but December 7, 1941, so from sixth grade on, selby's in seventh grade, she is 11, so almost 30 years later, I'm still recalling what Miss Gillen taught me about Pearl Harbor Day, but so I'm always aware of when Pearl Harbor Day is.

So I hope you had a nice Pearl Harbor Day.

I believe I did.

It was probably very similar to most of my other days, those Ember mugs, yeah, yeah, and it just keeps your coffee warm all day.

I got it for Christmas last year.

Rachel's parents got it for us.

I mean, you have to keep it charged, but it'll keep your coffee warm for a very long time.

Do you charge it?

Yeah, I just leave it plugged in.

So it's like there's a saucer that it's sitting on, the charges it so it just lives on the counter.

And then when I pour coffee, I'll have, you know, a cup of coffee or two with this.

I don't drink enough hot coffee to need that.

I mostly drink hot coffee, yeah, but I also feel like I don't if I'm drinking coffee, I don't if I'm drinking a hot coffee.

I don't drink it over a long enough period of time that it would get cold enough to be worth it.

I don't love overly hot coffee either, like, if I bring it in a mug or a thermos to work and it's too hot, I won't drink it until it comes off some Yeah, but if I'm if I'm working from home, I'll use it.

I mean, there's literally nothing worse than drinking burning your mouth, yeah?

And it's like, great.

Now I can't taste the rest.

Yeah, pizza, no, but it's nice.

Like I said, on Tuesdays, I'm typically home, so when I'm doing paperwork, I'll just have drink warm coffee.

But that's about it.

Sometimes, all weekends, I'll use it.

I bought, I forget what it's called, but I bought one of those.

Oh, it's a lark.

I think it's a lark water bottle.

And I think they have since made just like normal, normal water bottles that don't have any technology to them, because, I mean, the water bottle phenomenon is bananas to me, like, yes, Meg, every she's like, they were on sale.

I'm like, I this.

Hold on.

I'm going down the rabbit hole.

I This is the only water bottle I use.

A Walla, a Walla like, but it, but it's like, This is mine.

I fill it up every single day.

It goes with me every single day.

Like, I don't use another one.

I rinse it out.

I wash it like, but I don't switch it up.

And my my wife and all my kids will.

It's like, nope, not.

I don't want that one today.

I'm like, This is insane.

But I bought one of those larks years ago.

I think I got it for Meg for Christmas and myself on but it had a button on top that basically had a UV light that you'd, you know, you'd fill it up, and then you press the UV light and it like kills all the germs.

Yeah?

And I charged it once, like, I'm not charging this, yeah, that's like, cordless tools.

I'm not a huge screw guns and stuff, but, like, there are other cordless tools where I'm like, I would rather I was using my cordless miter saw yesterday, and the batteries died because it was freezing out.

And I'm like, now I gotta go grab batteries and charge batteries where, like my miter saw set up for the day.

It's good when it's good, but a lot of time I'm not a huge charging fan.

I'm like, I gotta locate a charger.

I get to go get this out and show like if I got a charger plugged in, and I had to run to the truck to plug a charger, like, obviously, screw guns drills I have, like a rear like a circular saw, but my table saw and miter saw, the miter saw is nice every now, and I had to put a piece of cord around in yesterday, so, like, that was convenient, but then I ended up doing more work than anticipated.

So I set it up and was doing bigger work with it, and then it died.

And I'm like, I could just have a miter saw plugged in right now, right and not have to worry about this.

But yeah, I'm definitely I get annoyed when I have to play or, like, camera batteries trying to charge camera stuff recording.

I'm like, Ah, can I just plug this in without a battery on it.

Wouldn't that be easier than trying to screw around with having a battery or how much battery life do I have left?

Yeah, it's like the Dyson when you're like, cleaning up your house.

Yeah, all of a sudden it just stops working.

Sick, or I was, I was blowing out the blowing off our driveway the other day because the kids were playing hockey, and I'm just, you know, I have a I mean, I was like, getting the neighbors sides.

I'm like, cleaning the whole alley behind our house, and then the leaf blower just died, yeah, just stopped.

So what?

Everything looked fine.

I was like, All right, it's fine.

So then I, I moved my truck back in the driveway after they're all done, and it's.

Says, underneath my truck, I'm like, I don't I don't own a rage.

I gotta go grab a broom, gonna pick this up.

It looks ridiculous.

But last so last week, we were talking about pre construction, but we were talking about, really, the, you know, the myth behind it, but also just like what it is, and, and I dug into, you know, a project that we were, that we ultimately were working through.

And I think correct my Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, but since that episode, there's been an update on that.

I basically was telling you how I was working through a tier one estimate, and I shared this through email.

If you guys aren't part of the modern craftsman email newsletter, you need to be, because I have been going super deep with the stuff that's happening in my business, and just sharing a little bit more about how I'm doing things and why I'm doing things, but I did this tier one estimate on a big $5 million project, and I had talked about how we did that kind of, I mean, pro bono, whatever you want to call it, but ultimately it's allowing me to get the reps in and getting more data for, you know, our our information.

You know, the more projects we price, the more information we have, the more accurate we can be.

But I'm not doing I'm not doing this number one all the time, but I'm also not just pricing work to for competitive perspective.

In in this particular case, you know, big architect that we've been wanting to work with, also a market that we want to be in.

And we were introduced to the project.

We interviewed the client.

Really liked us, and then he had said he was going to talk to another builder.

And the backstory is, the other builder knew I was looking at it and said, I'm going to put they were like, we'll put together an estimate if he's not going to and I said, Well, I'm not gonna play this game, like, I'll just do a tier one.

It will take me a day to do it.

Actually, I don't even know if I told you this story, so I was like, I'm just gonna take one day.

It will take me a full day, but I'll put together a whole Tier One estimate.

I'll be super detailed with it, because our estimate sheet, and what we put together every single client we've ever shared with is like, holy shit.

Like, this is really, really detailed, and I appreciate, like, you break and we break it down in tears.

Like, there's, like, a cover page that's simple.

Then there's the scheduled values, which is like, you know, I don't know, less than 100 line items.

And then there's one with literally 2000 line items, and it just gives the client an understanding of how we're thinking about the project, and builds a lot of trust.

So your client, your all your clients, go through that.

So we don't, I mean, we, the short answer is yes, but that's why we have the cover page and the schedule values, because they can just looking like, we just get right to the point, like it's $5.1 million yeah, like it's actually at the top too.

It's not even at the bottom, because we don't want to, I don't want them flipping to the page.

It's like, hey, like it's 5.1 now, but we typically walk them through the 2000 line items, sure, like, not, like, all right, here's screws here, like, it's no but, and if there's things I think, like, I highlight on mine, either areas or of concern or potential cost savings, or if something, if something just is, is really speaking to me where it's like, this is an exorbitant cost that exactly might be able to, you know, avoid, or like, this is just something that was anticipated that's driving the cost of this job.

But I asked because my current project, the portion I'm building, I sent it as a client I've worked for, for, I think it was before Selby was born.

It's her second house that she's in that I'm working on, and there's just a level of trust there.

So when I sent her the entire breakdown of the job and contract, she wrote back, like, looks great.

Basically immediately, and I'm like, I'm like, I just spent 40 hours putting together this budget over the cost of a couple of weeks.

And there's no way that you look through that whole thing.

She's like, No, but I trust you.

I was like, okay, cool.

And that, I mean, that's ultimately, like the best position to be in, right is to build trust.

So for us, like this is oftentimes where we get that first opportunity to build that trust, and we'll go through like every division, it's all the scope is outlined.

This actually a tool that really has, this is where I've actually really leveraged AI is making sure that as we're doing it like I'm not having ai do the estimate, but I am having AI help me narrate the Scope.

Of work and make it super clear and, most importantly, consistent.

Because for me, you know this particular it's a $5 million house.

It took me exactly 11 hours, basically, of dedicated work sitting at my desk of to put this together, right?

So you start out super high energy, yeah, I'm typing out everything.

Like, this is, like, super detailed, like, but concise and like, really be able to understand by the time I'm in, like, plumbing.

I'm like, plumb the house, yeah?

Dude.

I'm like, I'm just out of steam.

So part of it is like, I've said no, I want consistency.

I want the client to understand what is going into this and, and it's robust, like, it's, it's nice, because it's essentially, like, all the Cost Codes our scope of work, you know, how the value is made up, whether it's a sub material labor and it's, it's, you know, is it an allowance?

And then we have this basically column where we decide what schedule value column that goes in.

And I'm realizing this is probably hard to follow from an audio perspective, but what that does is, on our schedule, a value sheet, we essentially have columns based on the area.

So in this case, we had main house, garage, site, work, landscape, yeah.

So that way, you know when you're putting together the $5 million worth of cost, you can then see it divided by the different areas that this project is going to be broken up in.

So fast forward, well, I'll tell the story that I alluded to in the email.

So I like, I'm like, I'm done.

Electrical, finish it off.

Alarm, done, looking at everything.

Yep.

How's the contingency?

Contingencies?

Good.

File Save.

And the main, mind you, I save it every, like, every time I go to a new division, I'm saving it, yeah.

So I have, like, it's, it's saved.

File Save, disc full.

I'm, like, disk full.

It's like, what?

So I start investigating why I can't save this file.

It will not save on my computer.

It will not save on my desktop, like it just will not save.

So I'm like, chatting with Doug, and he's like, check this, check that.

And I check it, and I realized that my hard drive is literally, like, at capacity, like 100% capacity.

And so I'm sitting there with chat GPT, and I'm like, going back and forth, trying to figure out what, what's going on.

And come to find out, my Dropbox that I have terabytes of content on is locally saving everything onto my desktop.

So I'm trying to figure out how to fix this.

So it basically tells me, like, Hey, you can delete Dropbox.

Like, first shut the connection off from Dropbox to your desktop.

Done.

Shut it off.

Okay.

Now you can delete Dropbox from your computer, because everything is on the web, delete Dropbox of your computer so we can start fresh.

So I delete it.

We're good.

I've reconnected, and then try to only locally download the stuff that is like that stuff I need for some reason that doesn't work.

So I'm just, like, I'm just gonna leave it off my computer, my desktop.

I'll just save it to the I'll just save it to the web, and I'll, when I need something in Dropbox, I'll download it from the web.

Yeah, so great.

I'm good.

Dropbox off my computer.

My computer is completely like, I've opened up 50% of my hard drive.

I'm good.

I go to Dropbox, I open up the file that I was working on, I click, download it downloads.

I open it, it's blank, and I'm like, What the fuck?

And I realized that when I had start, when I started building that estimate at some point, and I forget why or what, triggered me to do it, but I had click I turned off sync to Dropbox, so the file wasn't saving to Dropbox, like correctly, and so now the file is just gone.

It's not a program where you did building it in Excel, yeah, so it just doesn't exist.

Like, I try go through the recovery, like it's just not there.

And I'm like, Okay, I mean 11 hours worth of work, like I'm literally texting Meg.

She's like, hey, what time we meeting up?

I'm like, I'm wrapping up.

I'm gonna be out here in five minutes.

All right, great, see you then.

And I get there, and she's like, do you get it done?

I'm like, I did.

It's gone, and I explain it.

And she's like, You're not mad?

I'm like, There's not I can't have a reaction.

There's nothing I can do.

And this was right before Thanksgiving, and I was like, I just need I'm gonna have to go in on Friday and redo it.

She goes, how?

Long is it gonna take?

I'm like, it won't take 11 hours, but it's gonna take me.

It's gonna take me some time.

So I came in on Friday, and I did it took me seven hours, literally, of just like sitting here, I know from from memory and leverage, and thankfully, I had the history of going back and forth with chat and narrating a lot of the scope, so I could pull a lot of that.

Yeah, so whatever that sucked.

Got it done, submitted it got feedback.

Oh my god, this is great.

Thank you so much.

We'll be in touch.

I get a phone call a couple days later, hey, we're going in a different direction.

And I was like, son of a bitch, like, what, how?

Like, why?

And, you know, there was a handful of reasons as to, you know, and immediately I'm like, Dude, I I'm sitting here promoting the fact that this is a good exercise.

It's giving me reps, but, like, I just wasted now.

I mean, you just got two more reps.

Let's forget the second time I do for the price of one.

We'll just, we'll just, we'll call it 11 hours.

Okay, I just wasted 11 hours, like, my time for 11 hours, like, I could be, I could be doing something different.

Why did I do this?

How?

Like, you know, I mean, it, like, just went round and around and the client ended up, you know, giving me a handful of, like, weird reasons as to why, like, they went a different direction.

But then was like, You know what?

Nick like, I just don't even know if I want to spend $3 million nevermind five.

And I was like, whoa, what?

And so I'm immediately going into, did I know this?

Yeah, do we have this conversation?

And I'm sitting here, like racking my brain.

I'm like, Well, I remember an early conversation about, like, they originally wanted to spend two and a half million, but they knew it wasn't going to be that.

And they knew that what they designed was going to be more, and they they thought it would be somewhere closer to, like, four plus million.

So I'm right there for I'm 4 million.

There was, like a million dollars in site, working landscape, like, I'm right, yeah, I didn't miss something.

And it just came down to the fact that they, you know, designed what they wanted, but, but basically said, let's table the fact I don't want to spend any money and figure out, Hey, What?

What?

What would this cost?

Yeah, and so, I mean, on one hand, it was frustrating.

On the other hand, it was, it was serendipitous, where we literally got an email the same day, saying, hey, same market, and sent us plans and like, we're really interested in working with you guys.

We know a lot about you.

We understand what your cost.

You know what the cost is?

Like, we communicated a typical budget, like, we bumped it up a little bit just to be safe.

He's like, Yep, totally makes sense.

And I was like, here's an example of one we just priced.

And he's like, this is amazing, great.

Yeah, let's hop on a call and chat about you guys coming up and building this project.

Nice.

So it's like, all right, you know, it worked out, like I was prepped and ready and again.

Like, that's the whole part of like, putting the reps in and but back to your question about, you know, do do we go through it line by line?

I think the, I think most clients, they they value that.

And what it does is it gives us the opportunity together to to highlight or or question things, yeah, where it's like, Hey, what is, you know, what?

What is that it's like?

Oh, well, you know, on the drawings, it calls out for this particular I'm trying to think of an example, but there was, there was something recently with a client, where they had asked, I want to say it was they had asked, why we had like, this is a bad example.

Why?

Why do you have five toilets?

It's like, well, there's five bathrooms.

It's like, oh, no, we eliminated that one of them.

There's only four.

It's like, stuff like that that comes up.

It's like, where we didn't, like, oh, there's an update to the drawing.

I didn't realize you eliminated an entire bathroom.

So it gives them that, that feeling, as though, you know, they're in the driver's seat, yeah?

And, you know, I've always said it's a bunch of little numbers that up to a really big number, right?

You know, that's, that's ultimately what we're trying to validate.

And, you know, and then I, and I've said it before, I think I said in last episode, but I definitely shared this in the recent email, is, you know, when we're looking at Value Engineering, it's, what can you remove, reduce or defer?

And it's like removing scope is, you know, obviously the best thing where it's like, just remove scope, like, remove a bathroom, or don't do the basement.

Now, phase, you know, that would be deferred, but don't, don't do something, or it's matter of reducing it.

It's like, hey, rather than tiling every wall in the bathroom, like, let's just tile the wet areas.

Yeah, I've always found that line item.

And.

And just that, like super detailed budget for me, is a is a an upsell and also a differentiator, and then it the transparency there builds trust, where they can go through and they can ask questions, or if they are going to compare, there's they can question me on any number, and I can explain and validate those numbers honestly and transparently, which to me, it's like, if there's a number in there that's standing out to them, there's a reason why, and it just it winds up being a selling tactic for me, because they're like, well, Well, why's the foundation on this cost this much, and it's like, well, we spoke with an imason, and hear the challenges with that.

We could redesign that, but these are the reasons why.

And then if, if they were, if you are in the world of Competitive Bidding, it allows them to ask other people, are they doing the same, or at least, question, right?

Is the other contractor accounting for this.

And I think a lot of times it validates the higher number where there's just opera opportunity to differentiate yourself through those numbers.

If, if your paint numbers higher than other people, well, why is your paint number higher?

It can't just be higher for the sake of being higher, but if there's reasons why it's higher and the amount of prep that you do and the level of finish that you're looking to execute.

For me, it was always just a really good selling feature for pricing projects, even prior to me getting paid for pre construction, which, growing up, that it was the opposite.

And even when I first started offering some sort of pre construction services through an article I read in JLC, it was, you can create the line item budget for yourself, but you want to give them an all in number.

It shouldn't be a la carte.

They shouldn't be able to pick and choose what they want.

And I did that for a really long time, and I felt that it didn't serve me very well, but I think that that was something that was very typical.

I know a lot of people do it too.

I mean, there's memes out there where people are like, can you break it down for the estimate?

And then it's people dancing.

But like, it's never served me well to just give somebody a big number with with no explanation behind it, like I'm not looking to hide numbers.

Yeah, I'm I'm invoicing people the same way that I'm budgeting people.

So if I'm invoicing them that way, why wouldn't I show them everything up front, like it protects me and it protects them?

Yeah, I think it's i It is funny, because the that meme pops up quite a bit.

And I was going to make a reference to, like, when you buy a car, because on one hand, when you buy a car, like, you get the sticker, right?

Everything is broken down.

Now it doesn't say, like, you know, 6.2 liter is $5,200 but the optional things, like, there's there's price, like, hey, the ZR 71 or Yeah, you 71 package is plus $8,000 you know what?

It's all the options where it's still broken down.

So I guess what I'm getting at is you could put together the estimate, break it down in terms of scope, but maybe it's one lump sum.

The whole lump sum side of it, I think is, at least for the way I look at it is more product based, where it's like, when you're buying a car, you're buying a product.

Now, when you go bring that car in for service, which building and remodeling you know, is a service, you're getting a breakdown.

It's like oil filter, you know, $24 you know, you know, six quarts of oil, etc, etc, right?

Like, you know, point seven, five hours, like, it's broken down.

So you do see, it's like, okay, that's, that's what it took to do that job.

And here's the, here's the, the markup and profit.

I think that's for for me, when I think about our business long term, I would love to be in the product business, where it's like, we're building a product and selling it.

It's what we're doing with white oak.

It's what we hope to continue to do, but we'll always have the service side of like, you know, building a custom home, where it's someone is hiring us for the service of building.

And I think, you know, recently, I've thought about this a lot, where, you know, we're, we're, we're actually hired as a cm for a project.

And so we're not even the GC.

We're not building it.

We're not hiring the trades.

And, you know, earlier, I found it really interesting, like, that's, it's like, what, you know, what's the benefit of us being a cm, right?

Like, there's already a GC running the job like, why do they also need us to be plugged in as a cm?

The reality is because our pro like they like our process.

Yeah, they like the way we communicate, the way we organize, the way we oversee the project, and that GC will do a great job, and they ultimately probably could do a great job without us, but the client values that the organization and.

And the accountability that we hold amongst the team.

So that is, that is a service, right?

They're adding that on to that's like, you know, you're, all right, you're going back to the car analogy.

It's like, hey, you need an oil change.

Like, all right, well, we can come pick your car up, like, we don't, you don't have to do that, but it's nice where, like, we'll just come pick it up and or, or the guy on Instagram, I think we talked about him, right?

Like the guy that does the oil changes, if you guys haven't, I wish I could find, know what the account is.

This guy does the best oil changes in your driveway.

It's, it's so good, but, you know, it's, that's an added service.

Like you, you don't need that, but it's but it's the convenience of having it.

And so I guess for like us thinking about this cm role, or just thinking about the way in which we're hired as a builder, and the way in which we communicate, like service versus product, you know, is, I think, directly related to that whole transparency side of it.

Truthfully, we had a client we did years ago.

We did this basement, and I remember putting together a really detailed estimate.

And I'll never forget she was like, Nick, I actually don't want to see this.

I was like, What do you mean?

She goes, I'd rather you just tell me how much it is, not show me how much money you're making.

I'm like, okay, like, not even making, like, bit for the job it was.

I was like, and I was doing it as a big favor.

I was like, I'm not even making that much money.

Yeah.

I'm like, but you'd rather just see a lump sum.

So I guess, you know, from a client's perspective, some clients do want, like, just, just tell me what it is like your client, like, example, it's like, you did all this work.

And the clients like, yeah.

Like, it looks good.

Where it was like, I was like, Yo, I just spent 40 hours on that between, like, getting subs out, going to the job, work.

She's like, I wish you saved that and took 40 hours.

She's like, Oh, I'm sorry.

Like, it does look great, but, like, I just, I already knew.

She's like, why don't you capitalize your letters?

Yeah.

Like, whatever it's gonna cost, it didn't really matter.

But do like in it to me, I think that one big thing to note is it doesn't matter whether you're fixed cost, whether your time material, whether you are cost plus builder, to me, there, there's a ton of value and transparency with your numbers for all of that, and for me, even more so with lump sum or fixed costs, because if you are pricing a fixed scope and a fixed cost job, you need to ensure that you are protected.

And I think having full transparency with your numbers and scope provides you with protection when you go to do that job if something changes within that scope, within those numbers.

So it's not it's not reserved only for TNM.

It's not reserved only for cost.

Plus, I think it's especially important with fixed costs to be able to create that transparency with that job.

And that protects you more than most anything like for me, that's the biggest thing, is just protecting me, making sure that the scope that I'm building is accurate, that it is meeting the client's expectations for what they're getting.

And I mean, there's times where I struggle with that as well.

The expectation is is tough to set on the projects that I'm doing, because we don't have full renderings, you know, we don't have 100 page drawings.

They're typically two, three pages of what we need, and then, like, the expectation is basically what they see me build in the past.

Like there's just a level of execution that they anticipate.

But I mean, I surprised myself at times.

I surprised clients at times, like, so I'm doing this porch right now, and I like, at the end of the day, I stepped back and I was like, this is turning out really nice.

And I'm like, I know where I am with numbers and all that, and I but the client's still paying me, like, TNM for everything, and like, we're on budget.

But I was like, I hope I'm not making it too nice.

And she's like, is that really a thing?

Like, as long as it doesn't cost me $500,000 like, I don't care.

She's like, I was speaking with my boyfriend, and he's like, I don't know what I was imagining when we said screened in Port, but this is, like, completely different than that.

And I was like, it is turning out pretty nice.

But, like, the budget, but it's not as though I just didn't give them a budget.

It wasn't there.

Like, the budget justifies what, what I'm building for it, but, like, still, even.

With that.

There's there's expectations that you need to set forth, and sometimes it's difficult, it's difficult to clearly articulate what those expectations are when you don't have 100 page drawing.

So like, what you have to be careful is that clients don't anti, like, I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum where it's better than they anticipated.

But when you're when you're on the other side of it, where it's like, well, I thought I was going to be getting more that's where you're going to get yourself into trouble.

So you have to protect yourself from that right where it's like, well, we thought it was going to look like this $300,000 kitchen, and it's like, well, no, you're only paying $75,000 this is, what a $75,000 and this is probably nicer than a $75,000 kitchen.

So just making sure that you're meeting those expectations with your budgeting and with your schedule and with your scope, and I, for me, the transparency of numbers and line item budget really helps with all of that stuff.

It helps protect me a lot.

I think you know, that brings up an interesting story.

A couple years ago, we priced the project, and we were in pre construction for a long time, and ultimately, I remember we met to sign a contract, basically like, review the final budget, sign contract, and at the end of the meeting, they were like, well, we're not gonna sign the contract today.

I was like, Okay.

And about a week later, he called and said, We're gonna move forward with another guy.

And I promise you guys, we have projects like we I'm only telling the stories of stuff we don't do.

But I was like, I would love to understand where we're at.

And the long story short was he had had this friend who was a builder, worked for his family, and truthfully, I don't think he was super honest with me, looking back, I think he wanted, I think that other builder didn't have the capacity to work through the pre construction, and I think that they ultimately just wanted us to help with pre con, which I would have been totally fine with just be upfront about it, yeah, and, but the but the deciding factor was he was quote unquote a million dollars cheaper.

And I'm like, with all the total number of the job, we were five, yeah, and he so he was four.

And I was like, it just, he can't be, like, we're not.

It doesn't is a lot.

It can't be the same project.

And but this is where I'm going with this.

He was like, he taught he a builder told me it is the same.

And I was like, Okay, so when you when you said, you know, the line item pricing like really builds trust and like gives the opportunity like for the client to understand what goes into it.

I agree, to some extent, the other side of it is, can the builder you me or this other guy have the confidence to say, No, you don't need that.

And ultimately, like I watched that project unfold and get built and like critical, critical details and product selections and things like that that we spent months, like, going back and forth on because he had, like, very specific requirements.

Aren't aren't there anymore?

Yeah, and I was like, that I could have built that house for $4 million that you you specifically didn't want.

The specific example is they didn't want, they wanted doors in the back of the building to be fabricated stainless steel so they would never rust, right?

Like, that's a super specific door, and I'm watching it get built in their Marvin's.

And you know, nothing against Marvin, like nothing against any manufactured door.

It's just not what we had asked for, yeah, or I'm sorry the client had asked for.

The client wanted something that was completely corrosion resistant, never to rust.

That's not a that that particular door is not going to survive, like what we had SPECT.

It's also about an eighth of the cost of what we expect, and that would and there was multiple details that kind of all LED, led to the the million dollars in savings that I and I'm watching firsthand.

My My point is I can only imagine that that builders like you don't need that.

This will be fine.

You don't need that.

This will be funny.

I think that's what it comes down to.

And what I was going to ask you, where it's like, how much of that do you feel?

Is you driving those decisions based on like, I understand a client coming to you and saying, Hey, we want something that's completely corrosion resistant.

But what I do.

Go to the moon for it, correct?

And what if you were to have the conversation where, like, yeah, I understand that, but stainless doors are going to be eight times the cost you could replace these four times over, right, and still have the money for the doors.

So like, how much of that is.

And I just had this conversation offline with you last week where it comes down to, yeah, you're building your company, and you want to protect your reputation, and you want to build a business based on your needs and your wants, but at one at what point do you allow that to get in the way of your profitability?

Like, at some point you have to be like, You know what?

I as a business, I have to make money as a business.

We need to keep the lights on, and at the end of the day, there's times where I need to push my wants and needs aside, not for something that's going to jeopardize my reputation, but like just be hacking work together.

But there's other options in between the ceiling and the floor that are decent options.

And I think that a lot of times that probably comes into play, especially for clients.

And like, I could see that builder doing that and not that that's right.

Like, I think that somebody should be straightforward and open and honest with you, but there's probably options, like, 20% is obviously not the same job.

Those are two different jobs if executed.

Well, it's it's just a different job, and it's not that necessarily.

One's better or worse.

I think that it comes down to what's most important to the client, and when you show them, hey, you could save 20% on a $5 million job.

They're probably gonna jump at that opportunity.

Yeah, I'm going through this right now.

We have a project that we're also in pre COMM With, and they're gonna there's just, like, there's very specific budget constraints, there's gonna be some phasing of the project to build it over the course of a couple of years.

And yesterday, I'm going through, you know, basically our tier two estimate.

And I'm like, Man, this project's more expensive than they want to spend on this phase one.

And I had that same conversation with myself yesterday.

I'm like, Man, am I just, am I trying to plug in details that matter to me, that don't matter to them?

Yeah?

And the answer is, yeah, probably, I mean Yeah.

And where it's like, I could build something that they would be completely happy with for the number that they want, and I'm trying to spend more to make them and me happy and and you're right.

I think that.

I think a lot of us do that.

We want to build passive house, you know, we want to build super architecturally driven projects.

It's like we all want that, you know, the ideal situation is that we we only build that.

But the reality that's not the reality you're trying to create a marketing program that supports the projects that you want to be doing, but like there, that's part of being in business for yourself.

You want to be doing things the way that you want to be doing, and you want to be building the product that you desire to build for many reasons, but I think that a lot of us do get in, get in our own way where it's like we're cutting our profitability and our margins in order to build something.

Because we were like, yeah, like we, I mean, I had this conversation with somebody at contractor coalition, where he was saying, you know, it just be so sick to build this, this full wall of glass, and I'm like, it also be sick to have the money in your bank account right where it's like, yeah, there, but there's a huge cost difference there, and there's a lot of challenges with that.

And if there's higher profitability, you shouldn't be conceding those call it.

It depends on what position you're in, but if you're in the position where you're looking to bump your margins in the first place, like that's probably not the way to do it.

Yeah.

I mean, I feel like that's how I built my entire career, and doing do.

And I People ask me all the time, it's like, you know, should I do that?

Should I take this project?

I'm like, yes, maybe I don't think how I've built my business is necessarily the correct path.

And I also, like, you know better than anyone, how some of those decisions have been emotionally and mentally taxing.

Yeah, and I think that, you know, thank God I have the fortitude to power through it, because, you know, it's a lot, and it's like, you know, if I had just, I thought.

About this last night.

I was just, I had a day, and I'm like, I'm just, my, I'm a nine out of 10 in terms of stress level to, you know, right now.

And I'm like, Dude, I could make so much money just doing normal ass shit.

I could just, I could just go, you know, we have the small run of small kitchen renovation coming up that will go through the cabinet shop.

And I'm like, I could just do it.

I could put my bags on and just go there every day.

Be, be like, the the smaller version of what Tyler does, and just make money.

And I know it's like, it's perspective, like, I it's just, I think we all get into this mindset of, like, thinking, what was the saying I saw the other day?

It's like, the whole grass is greener on the other side.

But it's that, that's exactly, it's funny, because going to contractor coalition and then just doing this porch right?

It's, it's, I would say it's more of the carpentry style of job where it's not like these detail oriented renovations where, I mean, I'm renovating our front living room at the same time, and as I'm doing that, I'm like, Oh, the the paint peeled this little bit of caulking off, like, put that on my list of things to do and to touch up.

And I'm like, just all the little shit that just becomes so taxing.

And then I'm, you know, I'm outside working on a porch, and 20 feet up, like, if something isn't perfect, that's okay, like, it's gonna move, it's PVC, everything else.

But I'm like, There's something to be said for that.

And I think that a lot of people, it's one of those jobs that people see, and they're like, it would just be so fun to be out there making sawdust with that and, like, it is, because it's different for me.

But if I did this type of project every day, it would be the same shit.

That's the key it, because it's different, yeah, and it's like, it's, you know, when you're doing, like, when, I mean, I've been in the office constantly.

I'm just constantly in the office trying, like, you're building the business, working marketing, chasing down jobs, working through pre con.

And it's like, the, the rare case that I get out in the field and I'm helping move shit, sweep shit, do something, whatever it is, it's just like, Ah, this is, this is great, yeah.

So, like, I had a blast demoing, doing the site work on that job, even you were in your excavator, yeah.

But like, even, even footings, and then all the layout, the structure, the framing of the roof, that was all fun.

And then when you get to the point where it's like, now we need blocking and hangers and all the bullshit detail framing.

I'm done with it.

The stairs were fun.

But then it gets to the point where all that's done, and I'm starting the decking, and I'm like, All right, I'm over this.

And then I'm at the point now where you're trimming stuff out and you can see it.

So it's fun again, right?

It's like, oh, this is looking good.

It's coming together.

But then, even yesterday, I was freezing cold out.

I'm trimming out the interior door and prepping for paint and the amount of tools that you need just for one little doorway between a caulk gun foam for the casing, casing wood glue all and I'm like, All right, this sucks.

Like, I'm so annoyed with this.

I I don't want to be doing this crap right now, and there's not enough space to work.

And then, like, I don't know it, it is, it's, it's something new, it's something different.

And I think that a lot of times it's just perspective, right?

And it comes down to perspective of what you're doing.

If I framed roofs on a daily basis, I'm sure I'd be like, I don't feel like throwing another frickin rafter up here.

But it's the challenge of something new, which I think is probably what you chase a lot, right?

It's just, I don't want to be doing the same thing.

I don't want to be doing the same details.

I don't know, we constantly be pushing the envelope, but I try and balance that with I understand the first time I do something is going to create inefficiencies for myself that I can't capture from a business perspective.

Regardless I'm tn, but like, if there was learning or if I screwed something up, I'm always backing down hours because of inefficiencies or because I think I wasn't as productive as I should be.

I'm always rounding down my hours, which I'm perfectly fine with, because I'm grateful to be in the position I am with my clients, and I want to maintain budget, and I'm getting paid way more than I ever have to be on projects.

So like, I'm never charging more than eight hours in a day unless I say, Hey, we're gonna work like 12 hours today.

But if I'm there for eight and a half, nine hours, it's like, it's one day.

I know that there was time that I was there on my phone.

Yeah, it like even yesterday, right?

I was there for five and a half, six.

Six hours, and it's like, all right, five hours, like, I know there was downtime that I was bullshitting, that I was either taking a phone call or whatever it may be, but I'm like, well aware of that, but I do think it's one of those just so many people reach out.

I mean, you sent me a DM where it's like, Yo, can I come work for you?

And it's just like, people, people see what I'm doing, and I think it's what people got into this industry for, and it it is appealing to be doing that type of work, and it is gratifying.

And there are a lot of days where it's like that, and there's some days where it just freaking sucks.

It's raining or it's hot, or it's freezing or stressful or something didn't go right.

But I think for the most time, it's been a fun job, it's been a profitable job.

It's been something that like, I don't know, I've enjoyed doing, but I wouldn't.

I do always tell people that the grass is always greener, right?

I don't, I don't, personally, I don't look to what a lot of other people are doing and say, I wish that were me.

But I do think a lot of people who are in, who are wearing the shoes of a bigger business owner, see what I'm doing and are like, damn, I wish I could have made that work.

They just never found a way to make that work?

Yeah, I don't think, I mean, I think every once in a while I feel like, Oh, I wish that I was doing that.

Most of the time, I'm like, No, I like, what I'm doing.

I just wish I was at this point, like, Yeah, always the like, I just need to get here.

The saying I was thinking about is, there was a saying about the grass is always greener on the other side.

And followed up by Yeah, because there's shit in it, yeah?

And I'm like, I'm like, I love that.

I'm like, because it's like, I mean, you relate that back.

It's like, they, they're going, like, you know, it's, it's fucking hard, yeah, it's like they're dealing with shit.

And it's like, yeah, like, it's not like, you know, if you think about growing grass, it's like, you don't, can't just grow grass, like, you want really nice lawn.

Like, that's, there's, that's work, dude.

I literally, like, had that conversation just with regard to grass to my client yesterday, because he's like, we plant grass seed in springtime.

And I was like, Yeah, I was gonna put something down sooner, but like, because there's a decent grade off of the patio that we put in all that.

But I was like, I guess I compacted everything well enough that nothing's washing out, so I don't want to put topsoil in and all that stuff till spring.

Just doesn't make sense.

But she was like, Yeah, I don't fertilize or anything like that.

So a lot of times my grass kind of goes to crap.

I don't want to put chemicals on my lawn.

And I was telling her how difficult it is to actually grow nice grass, and how expensive it is and actually how shitty it is for the environment.

It was like literally having that conversation yesterday the guys on like Instagram that have, like, the real mowers.

Yeah, I just saw one this morning, like, he, it's, like, it was watching, yeah, you got a whole truckload of sand.

I'm like, he just sands his whole yard.

I'm like, dude, and then he's, like, a real mower, yeah?

And then it's, I mean, it's, it's insane.

The thing with that, I'm like, I appreciate number one, the dedication and like, how good it looks, but your neighbors doesn't look like that now.

And also, like one dog comes and pisses on your lawn, and you're screwed, oh yeah.

Well, then you're ripping it up and like you're, you're doing surgery, but it's more I just, I'm like, if I feel like, the only way that that looks good, guys, I think it looks ridiculous when you're the only one, and then every other neighbor just looks, you know, if say everyone else has just, like normal ass grass, and you just the one guy that has, like, flat carpet grass, yeah, I don't like, I don't get it.

It also, it would just make it so not enjoyable for me, because if it weren't perfect, it would just stress me out.

Well, there's, there's one, there's actually one that I've I see a lot.

He's got this.

It's got to be like a four foot wide strip between him and his neighbor.

And he only does two feet.

I'm like, Just do your neighbors, yeah?

I mean reading between the lines.

I think his neighbor doesn't want him to Yeah.

I'm like, so this looks, it's like, when you know, Boston, you have all the the double wides, like the two townhomes next to each other, and then, like the neighbor paints all the trim white.

Oh yeah, that centerpiece of trim.

And like the other guy is like, pink, yeah.

It's like, can you guys decide, like, hey, let's communally paint this so it looks like one nice building, not or like the roof, the shingles changed halfway between on like, the twin houses, you literally just stopped shingling halfway through.

You could have been much I'm not shingling my neighbor's house.

I'm like, Dude, it's like, less than a square Oh, my small man's hard roof.

Just, just work with them.

So funny.

I.

Um, yeah, I I've been enjoying myself.

It's been, it's been a nice job to close the year out, wrap things up.

It's been a little bit chilly lately.

But there is something to be said for for not working in someone's house at the end of the year where they're getting ready and you like, see the the Christmas tree, grow up, go up, and then they have people are for Thanksgiving.

And I'm like, damn it doesn't even matter.

Like, if I finish this now or I finished this in January, nobody's sitting outside right now.

Like I'm just WAY less stressed right now wrapping things up because I'm not trying to close out in an interior space where I just see like gifts coming in and family plans and and everyone just living inside because it's too cold to go outside.

I just like, I'm out by myself.

Turn some lights on.

I'm not bothering anyone, except for maybe the neighbors.

It's been a way less stressful end of the year, even though I have a ton of shit to do with, like, I mean, I'm doing my house, I'm doing that project.

Obviously, we have a lot of other balls in the air, and I'm, like, way less stressed than I normally am closing the year out, which is good.

I'm not in that position.

No.

I mean, I have a lot going on.

It's just, it's, there's a big difference between no I can working on the back of somebody's house, not having to go inside of their house any day, then then being inside and cleaning up, and everyone being home, like coming home from school, and everyone's inside because nobody's going outside because it's cold out.

And I feel like I'm just working around shit the whole time.

You're just stressed, counting the days until you have to be out of there.

I was forever counting the days, like, Mike, I gotta get this place done and sold before it gets cold.

I'm like, now it's cold.

I'm like, I'm never gonna sell it in the cold.

And people are like, why wouldn't you sell it in the cold?

Yeah?

Like, it's just a bad time of the year.

I'm like, they're like, Nick, you.

You don't really have much of an option here.

The holidays are in two weeks.

Like you just, this is, this is the card you're dealt.

Like, you got to ignore that.

I'm like, Yeah, I know.

I'm like, I just didn't want it to be cold.

I wanted it to be green and nice.

And people like in their T shirts.

Like, yeah, well, it's not so yeah.

I'm like, All right, well, I guess let's make it nice and toasty.

And the fireplace went in yesterday.

I'm like, Oh, I didn't even think about the fact that we could be using it.

Yeah, people are walking through like that.

What did you ever do with the the framing on that?

I remember the one time we walked it, and there was, like, clearance issues with the the vent pipe, early on, early on, because you wanted it to lay out with, like the white oak ceiling.

Yeah.

So originally it was supposed to be a wood burning stove that was against the wall in the front.

We end up not being able to do that, because we could get the, I think this is what you're talking about.

We could get the chimney up to the second floor, but we couldn't get it up through the roof.

Yeah, it turned too many times because, because it's wood burning, yeah?

So we end up switching to basically a 360 degree.

It's like a fire pit almost, yeah.

So it's in the room a little bit more, and it goes through the oak beams in the ceiling and straight up through the roof.

Okay, it's gas now, no, it's wood burning.

Okay.

So it's essentially, I think I want to say it's maybe like a big, 50 inch it looks like, almost like a top and yaki, yeah, like, plate that sits on the floor and most of its recessed, and then two feet above that is this kind of, like, upside down funnel, that's the hood, and it has this glass shroud around it.

It's super cool.

It's called a filio focus.

And it just, I mean, it's, I don't know it's, it's super cool looking.

And it's more of like a fire pit.

It's almost like ski lodge, yeah, you know, you you can kind of sit around it, but it went in yesterday.

I'm like, Man, that's super cool.

Sweet.

Yeah, start burning that thing, man, I know I was, I remember when we finished our Steve Teague project, when the fireplace was all done, everyone's like, so who's gonna test this?

Yeah, I was like, let's just do it.

And they're like, yeah, why don't you do it?

Nick Fingers crossed.

Like, come on.

But yeah, they, they're gonna be wrapped up with that this week.

And I'm like, man, we get we gotta test it.

And then, like, when you're walking, when we're working clients through there, you got to get them in that living room and seeing that thing, yeah, that's sick.

That'd be cool.

Well, there you have one, one perk for the cold weather, yeah, the fireplace.

You know what?

That's actually funny, because when we bought, I've sold the store before, but when we looked at our place in New Hampshire, it was height of covid, and we lit we we drove up to New Hampshire to look at this little log cabin, not because we were going to buy it, like we didn't have the money to buy it.

We just, we simply just were trying to get out of the house to do something.

And Meg's family had happened to have a house on the street growing up.

So she was just like, let's just go look at it.

Like it's something to do with the kids, you know, get out of the house.

We're trapped here.

And we drove up the driveway, I'm like, Oh, this is cool.

And they opened the door and they had set they had had the wood burning stove going, oh yeah.

And I walked in, I'm like, oh, we should buy this place.

And she goes, what?

I'm like, Look at the wood burning stove.

She's like, that got you?

I'm like, Yeah, did it's like, when people, like, bake cookies, when they're gonna show their house, and you walk and you're like, oh my god, it's so good in here.

Yeah.

Oddly enough, at Rachel's dad's funeral, they had, like, baked cookies that they were baking, like the funeral home, yeah, like, like, wall.

So when you walked in, it smelled like cookies.

And I was like, it's kind of nice.

It is, but it's also like, we had, like, coffee and dessert bar there.

I don't like, I feel like, every time I smell cookies, it's gonna I mean, I guess that's a good memory to have, better than like I feel like most funeral homes are in these nasty old Victorians that just smell like, like old, and you can smell like the natural gas leaks in them.

We don't even have gas.

It's like, whatever you capped is you just smell your basement.

Yeah, yeah, that's funny, sweet.

Well, hopefully, hopefully the job continues to go well, and you get some, some nice fire pits, closing that job out.

I feel it, man, we're close.

That's awesome.

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