[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, last.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's been a minute since we did one of these.

[SPEAKER_00]: True, that is true.

[SPEAKER_04]: This is the first time you've done a podcast wearing a new sweater, you just crocheted.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's true.

[SPEAKER_04]: Very nice work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, thanks.

[SPEAKER_01]: I enjoy that.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're finding the skill that I'll be.

[SPEAKER_04]: So mostly we wanted to do this because you have a workshop coming up later in the week.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do.

[SPEAKER_04]: But first I wanted to talk about your new channel a little bit.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's a surprise.

[SPEAKER_03]: Great.

[SPEAKER_04]: So free listeners if you don't know yet Sarah has new channel.

[SPEAKER_03]: The mindful movement motivation.

[SPEAKER_04]: I really think it's great.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm really enjoying it.

[SPEAKER_03]: It feels like a natural evolution to the first channel and it's sort of sparking my creativity in a way that I haven't felt like I've had in a while.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm enjoying it.

[SPEAKER_04]: I can see that and I can hear it when I listen to it.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, when you started doing the meditations, they're great.

[SPEAKER_03]: I've done a lot of them.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, like, how many things are there to say?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, including a few hundred that are not on the channel that have been for clients, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I still like doing them.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's just, you know, when I think of the different creative aspects of it, it's like, OK, well, I've done that before.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I've done this before.

[SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes there are [SPEAKER_03]: lessons or ideas that I want to impart in the meditation and it just doesn't feel like it's the right place because people are trying to meditate right and just be and they don't need [SPEAKER_04]: It's great, it's great as your husband and friend to see you re-inspired by it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And tapping into creativity again, not that you aren't still creative, in other ways.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, look at the sweater.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's sweater, by the way, looks like it could have come with the wallpaper.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's true, that's true.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have a lot to say about the sweater today.

[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, it's really good and I've listened to what you have like a handful of them out on the new channel.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I just started it about a month and a half ago and I've been putting them out weekly, so maybe six or seven or so.

[SPEAKER_04]: I find when I'm listening to them that the evolution of your writing has gotten not just like more precise and clear and efficient.

[SPEAKER_04]: But I sense that all these reps of the one-on-one sessions over the years has made you wiser, like learning from your clients.

[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely, every session.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that I feel is coming through in these motivations.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think the first channel is about nine years old now.

[SPEAKER_03]: And when I first started writing, [SPEAKER_03]: the meditation scripts, it was born out of both what I felt like I needed in my own practice, as well as some of the individuals that I was working with kind of the practices that they were needing.

[SPEAKER_03]: And over the years obviously, like you said, there's been so many of them that now [SPEAKER_03]: I want to integrate and embody these lessons in my own life.

[SPEAKER_03]: in sessions and in conversations with clients.

[SPEAKER_03]: These are some lessons that we've discussed and we've worked through together.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I just think that the mind does really well with what's familiar and what's repetitive, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: What we focus on expands.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so, [SPEAKER_03]: having an opportunity to reinforce these ideas for clients and myself and you know it could be just in the background when you're walking or crocheting or gardening you know whatever it is or making dinner you know it could just be on in the background and [SPEAKER_03]: You get those moments of, oh, right, yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's exactly what I need needed to hear, or exactly how I feel.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's just some good reminders of the lessons and the evolution kind of in your ear or in the background, so.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's great.

[SPEAKER_04]: I get a sense, I think I understand what you're saying.

[SPEAKER_04]: It also seems relevant to this workshop.

[SPEAKER_03]: You have coming up this Saturday, Saturday, yes, 12 Eastern.

[SPEAKER_03]: But it is going to be recorded.

[SPEAKER_03]: So even if this, if you're, you know, if I was listening to this after the date, it'll be edited into a self-led course.

[SPEAKER_03]: So people can access it afterwards.

[SPEAKER_03]: If they can't make it with me live.

[SPEAKER_04]: really a lot lately through your writings and the motivations and some of the meditations are really like exploring the ideas of Shane which is what this workshop coming up is about and I assume that that's just a really [SPEAKER_04]: when you're working.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is.

[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes people wouldn't necessarily label it, label their experience as shame.

[SPEAKER_03]: That would be my interpretation, but when clients come to work with me around people pleasing in their intimate relationship, for example, that might be the symptom that they're experiencing or the issue that they're experiencing, but when we dig deeper, [SPEAKER_03]: And we look at, you know, why do we, why do you feel the need to appease or people please or give up your own needs for someone else's?

[SPEAKER_03]: It generally stems from childhood and the need to be small.

[SPEAKER_03]: The need to not ruffle feathers, the need to make sure, you know, maybe mom was her mood was stable and you didn't impact that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And to me, [SPEAKER_03]: often that stems from shame.

[SPEAKER_03]: So the individual might not say, oh, I feel shame, I need to work on that, but they would say, you know, I have this people pleasing tendency.

[SPEAKER_03]: And when we dig a little deeper, we get to understand where that was born, or how that was born, then it, you know, I would maybe look at it as shame.

[SPEAKER_04]: So what I'm saying is that I don't think that...

So shame could show up in a way that you wouldn't think that it's the underlying correctness.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's driving it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Correct.

[SPEAKER_04]: And what's another example?

[SPEAKER_03]: Another example would be an addictive behavior, let's say.

[SPEAKER_03]: So someone is wanting to stop drinking alcohol.

[SPEAKER_03]: they feel the need to have alcohol, you know, it's an addiction.

[SPEAKER_03]: But what I would look at is, well, what is the feeling below the surface that feels painful or overwhelming that you're trying to avoid or numb or suppress with the alcohol?

[SPEAKER_03]: And it might not necessarily be a conscious [SPEAKER_03]: consciously feel a strong feeling and say, oh, I don't want to feel that I'm going to go have a drink to not feel that.

[SPEAKER_03]: It just becomes a pattern that you might not even know.

[SPEAKER_03]: But when we stop drinking and [SPEAKER_03]: the thing that we're suppressing starts to come up we might look at what those feelings are and where they came from and you know why they're so overwhelming and why we're choosing to suppress without the hall and often with addictions their shame below the surface.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I feel like when I quit drinking, [SPEAKER_04]: That first year or two, there was a lot of that stuff bubbling up and realized that that was dealing with a lot of shame.

[SPEAKER_04]: I just around, like, just in general, like how I treated people or like a lot of lying, whether it was directed to or like directed in all directions, probably a lot of shame around like things that'd be hiding from you or Sure.

[SPEAKER_04]: But it's like, why is shame?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like we know, we get a sense that these different emotions are feelings that we have.

[SPEAKER_04]: They exist on some like frequency.

[SPEAKER_04]: And there is, there seems to be like a hierarchy, some degree.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't know how exact the graphs are.

[SPEAKER_04]: They talk about this or how true it is.

[SPEAKER_04]: But there's something to it for sure.

[SPEAKER_04]: Why is shame at the bottom of that chart?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, why is that the lowest of all the lows?

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think of shame as something maybe bigger than an emotion.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there are emotions associated with it, but it's almost like the response to the emotions.

[SPEAKER_03]: Meaning, it's like, [SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to articulate this, and it's like a lot of layers, it's the hiding of the experience that is the shame, shame causes us to hide parts of ourselves so that they aren't judged [SPEAKER_04]: So there's like the secrecy component that comes with shame that wouldn't come with other like low vibe feelings.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like your example of when you quit drinking, shame came up around lying and how you treated people.

[SPEAKER_03]: and what you were coming to understand through the clarity of being sober and feeling these feelings and letting them all come to the surface was that you were hiding these aspects of yourself.

[SPEAKER_03]: You didn't want that part of you to be known.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the alcohol allowed you to do that because it was hiding it from yourself even, you know.

[SPEAKER_03]: In order to unburden yourself or release the shame, it has to be brought to the surface.

[SPEAKER_03]: It has to be to be felt, to be experienced, to be witnessed.

[SPEAKER_03]: And what usually happens when you're feeling shame within yourself is that it's witnessed by a harsh critic or a judge.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's not fun, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like if you came to me to share something vulnerable and I met you with judgment or criticism, there's no way you're bringing that back to me a second time.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're gonna hide it, you're gonna suppress it, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And the same thing happens when we internalize, [SPEAKER_03]: the criticism, and we internalize the judgment that, you know, usually it started from something external when you're a child, some primary caregiver, or authority figure, shames, or criticizes, or judges, and you internalize that, and then [SPEAKER_03]: It's as a protective way to not be shamed from anything external, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: It drives, it drives the need for achievement and success and perfection, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And it becomes a cycle.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I feel like for me, it probably drive seeking approval, certain things, like I would do things to say, to show people like, I'm good enough, I'm really, I'd like have to go out of my way to, to like, patch things up for myself.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: By being validated by others.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, how do you think you did that?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what are the specific examples or actions that you might have taken if you're willing to share?

[SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_04]: I wasn't, I was trying to put you on the spot today.

[SPEAKER_04]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha [SPEAKER_04]: Cooking and feeding people like it's a true, and I don't like the way I do it now I think it's fully out of love But there might have been a part of me at one point where subconsciously Even though I still like to cook and like feed people authentically and like to see the response and I mean I just think food is a important part of our our life and [SPEAKER_04]: But I think there might have been part of me that's like trying to earn approval in some way or like or I guess worth, by getting someone to say like, thanks, I like this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I do think that like you did a good job with this meal and it's like validating my, [SPEAKER_03]: uh...

your goodness my goodness my existence or something like i contributed to i do think that there are many strengths and gifts that are are developed from the the safety strategies and the patterns that we employed to keep ourselves safe and feel like we're enough [SPEAKER_03]: However, it's the come from where you come from that makes a difference, because right now you're saying that you cook from a place of love.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that probably feels really nourishing and not exhausting.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because you're giving, you're being generous, you're passionate about it.

[SPEAKER_03]: But if we go back in time, and I don't know if this is really the pattern that was the most prevalent for you, but if we go back in time when there was a need for validation, [SPEAKER_03]: I need to do this to prove my worth.

[SPEAKER_03]: that can feel very exhausting, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like this managing part of you that is driving the behavior, and it feels survival-based.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like I need to fit in, I need to belong, I need to be worthy, or I won't be a part of the tribe, I won't survive.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so that behavior, [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's being driven by the survival need, it's really exhausting.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it feels like the drive is so much more intense than when it comes from a place of love and passion.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's funny to say that because one of the other patterns that comes to mind that I've had over the years that I know you know is like wanting to be right in a conversation, hurting fate, and trying to convince the other person [SPEAKER_04]: I'm right, which at a time in our relationship early on, I think you felt like, like I was being kind of sending.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, talk at instead of talk to or something.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, like, I was being steamrolled.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I remember that.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, but, you know, it's funny.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think I shared this with you, but on a podcast a couple of months ago, with, um, [SPEAKER_04]: Keala, I remember sharing this insight.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we were talking about in real time during the podcast, I think I was uncovering where that came from and you write like it was a basic survival, keep the tribe alive because, excuse me, as a child, as my family was splitting up and for years after, [SPEAKER_04]: I always found myself in the middle, excuse me, of these like two sides, my dad being on one side and my mother and two sisters on the other side.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I was always defending one side to the other.

[SPEAKER_04]: I was always put myself in the middle to try to convince the others that the one that [SPEAKER_04]: of the other.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that what they thought was real wasn't real.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I had like I felt like I had the inside track of what was real from each side because I heard their sides.

[SPEAKER_04]: But that convincing [SPEAKER_04]: It's like, if I failed at that, it means the family or the tribe dies.

[SPEAKER_04]: It was like, an existential threat to me, that my family was dying if I didn't hold them together.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I created this behavior of trying to convince one side of the other side was good.

[SPEAKER_03]: right well your parents split up when you were four and I met you when you were 21 and I think you still thought they might get back together yeah that's crazy and I mean maybe it was a little less child like at that stage but the fact that you first so many years you were trying [SPEAKER_03]: It was like, like you said, a survival need of I need my people back together to feel safe to feel worthy to feel good enough for them to come back together.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it makes sense that you would have this drive to show one side that the other side was, you know, well meaning and you wanted to prove that you were right.

[SPEAKER_03]: it makes sense.

[SPEAKER_03]: But now you have this amazing skill of being able to debate and have these really interesting conversations.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I think after you were able to figure out that the drive of that survival behavior that you had adopted, it lessened the intensity of your need to be right.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, which is less exhausting.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's like it's stressful.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: So like you're literally tapping in, metabolically, to stress-based energy production pathways.

[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_04]: And having that unless desirable hormonal cascade in your body, or neurotransmitter profile, to fight that fight.

[SPEAKER_04]: And now it's actually I think I've even turned to corner since that podcast where I just feel like I could see myself about like wanting to engage and and just being it's like easier to choose to just sit back and relax and be kind and not right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's more enjoyable to have conversations that way, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: You're not in a hyper-vigilant state.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're not trying to prove your worth.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's no striving or, you know, deriving the behavior it's just enjoying the conversation.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I kind of have to applaud you for your awareness because, excuse me.

[SPEAKER_04]: When I think about, I mean, we're about 22 years, 22 and a half years, we've been married.

[SPEAKER_04]: I wonder, and I think about the generation of our parents and like, and just like the divorce rate in general.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_04]: And how much of that just stems from a lack of resources and awareness of like, [SPEAKER_04]: these human characteristics, this part of the human condition that penetrates like all of our being and then affects so much around us and ourselves forever.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I feel like our relationships better now than ever.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why would agree?

[SPEAKER_04]: Even though we went through so many things that I think a lot of relationships don't stay together ever.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think there's a pretty high percentage of relationships [SPEAKER_04]: that literally separator divorce going through what we did.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I consider definitely myself a really us lucky.

[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to say dodge that bullet, but like- Well, there was also, it's not just luck, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: We were willing to do the work.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we got married so young that [SPEAKER_03]: we were growing up together.

[SPEAKER_03]: And relationships really are this wonderful container to learn and grow and evolve.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the story that you talked about in terms of the debating and the conversations, like you wouldn't have known that about yourself to learn and grow without interacting with another person.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[SPEAKER_03]: And so we have these containers, especially like the high stakes or the intimate relationships that are, you know, most important relationships in our lives, they're really great opportunities because we tend to be willing to be more vulnerable and more open and more ourselves and, you know, [SPEAKER_03]: in the in the types of relationships so that we can use them as a choice of a lot of people are though guarded and it ruins those relationships.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.

[SPEAKER_04]: I guess there's some meaning there is luck involved like whether it's luck to learn that that's a thing to you know I mean to have a well it's also a responsibility.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[SPEAKER_03]: We each separately took responsibility of our part, you know, you did a lot of work around when you quit drinking around yourself and, you know, your patterns and you did a lot of external work.

[SPEAKER_04]: just fundamentally value personal responsibility.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'd say.

[SPEAKER_04]: So let's talk about you a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: OK.

[SPEAKER_04]: So you wouldn't be doing so much stuff about shame unless, you know, I felt like you need something.

[SPEAKER_04]: What's going on with you?

[SPEAKER_04]: That [SPEAKER_04]: that you feel you've learned about yourself in that regard that helps you be a facilitator for other people to learn more about themselves regarding this topic.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'd say my primary pattern.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we all have a lot of them, but my primary pattern is I mean, I don't know if it's exactly the label of perfectionism, [SPEAKER_03]: circling it and there's lots of components of perfectionism and, you know, needing to do things the right way and the best way and have high achievement, probably why I own two businesses and do as much as I do.

[SPEAKER_04]: Always trying to fix what's wrong.

[SPEAKER_03]: Always trying to fix what's wrong.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, absolutely, and I think part of that was just handed down in my family line, and my father was an engineer, and he always saw the problems and everything, even though they probably weren't actually problems, he was always trying to improve and fix, and I think that I interpreted that as a child as he was trying to fix me, you know, make me better.

[SPEAKER_04]: like you don't score goal in a soccer game and it's like he's trying to fix you so you score one next time, kind of.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, or even if I did do well, there's always room for improvement and there's always room to do it better and I don't think he did it out of disapproval, but as a child, you know, I interpreted it as [SPEAKER_03]: well they're still room for improvement so I must not be good enough and I think that there was a lot of that just in terms of achievement and success.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I think with my mom, [SPEAKER_04]: shame, the idea around shame that you spoke about earlier.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think I interpreted it as shame, like I'm not good, right?

[SPEAKER_04]: So you're just ashamed of not being right.

[SPEAKER_03]: So there's a difference between, you know, I did something wrong and I'm wrong.

[SPEAKER_03]: Or...

[SPEAKER_03]: I did something wrong and I don't matter.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like that belief of I don't matter is a big one for people who experience symptoms of shame.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's funny.

[SPEAKER_04]: You mentioned like kind of a secrecy component to it and I remember hearing your family talk about stories of you walking around with a pillow case over your head.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for sharing.

[SPEAKER_03]: like you don't want to be seen right but it was it's a it's a weird like imbalance right like I would come downstairs wherever one else was and like wanting to be seen not being seen which is a weird you know it's just strange but you know I was probably you just thought that a few weeks ago I was probably like five or six you know [SPEAKER_03]: But I think that with my mom, she cared a lot about what people thought.

[SPEAKER_03]: And this is where I think the shame really came in even more so.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like others like neighbors or?

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was like, well, what will people think if you wear that or if, you know, if you gained some weight?

[SPEAKER_03]: That was a big thing for her growing up.

[SPEAKER_04]: But that was probably a reflection of how what she went through when she was little.

[SPEAKER_03]: right, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that that to me was more interpreted as a shame, like let's hide parts of ourselves and parts of me really.

[SPEAKER_03]: And even, I think I deal with that today.

[SPEAKER_04]: Do you feel like there's a necessary component in that context for instance?

[SPEAKER_04]: when you're working with the shame that you feels embedded in you around that, is it necessary to forgive that person for their role in that?

[SPEAKER_03]: Generally, when I work with forgiveness, it's more around forgiving yourself for [SPEAKER_03]: adopting the beliefs and the behaviors and the patterns that would have come from the interaction.

[SPEAKER_03]: Having a bit of an understanding of, in my example, my mom's behaviors and the way that she parented and the way that she treated me, it was all out of love and care.

[SPEAKER_03]: I get that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it was also based on [SPEAKER_03]: her upbringing.

[SPEAKER_03]: So the understanding of that helps me to not take it out on her or blame her.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I guess in a way that is a bit of forgiveness of her.

[SPEAKER_03]: But it's like, I'm...

[SPEAKER_03]: taking responsibility in the situation, exactly, for my response and for my part in it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I need to recognize, or I do recognize, but we all need to recognize that we were children when we adopted these behaviors and these beliefs and these patterns.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we didn't have the logical part of our brain fully formed.

[SPEAKER_03]: We didn't have resources that we have as an adult.

[SPEAKER_03]: So to let go of the blame of yourself is really, really powerful and important.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's where I think the forgiveness comes in.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's more about the self forgiveness, because it just gives you more freedom.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's lightens the load that you've been carrying.

[SPEAKER_04]: I just believe it's basically impossible to not to screw up your kids and the best you do is hope that they grow up and learn how to handle that well.

[SPEAKER_03]: I do think that every single parent, myself and you included will make mistakes, each child is different and they don't come with instruction manuals.

[SPEAKER_04]: But I don't even think there's, like I don't think it's a real thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: to not make mistakes.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, I agree.

[SPEAKER_04]: I don't even think there's something real that you can chase.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's an illusion.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think no matter what you do.

[SPEAKER_03]: I agree, but the really important point is that you can repair.

[SPEAKER_03]: You can say to your kid, [SPEAKER_03]: Look, I made a mistake.

[SPEAKER_03]: I screwed up.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_03]: I want to make it right.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's all you can do.

[SPEAKER_03]: But if you don't do that, then those mistakes become internalized and the way that they received it becomes internalized and then the cycle continues.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it's like with that relationship, you have to both sides of to learn.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like you have to, like the kid learns from the parent, [SPEAKER_04]: And also, in an ideal scenario, the parent recognizes the kid as their teacher.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_04]: And over time, learns and the relationship can grow stronger and stronger.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, we've had recent conversations with our daughter who's 21 and we're still, you know, going going back and forth with her, trying to repair and trying to help her understand our perspective and our approach from, you know, multiple years before now.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just grateful she hates me less than she hates you.

[SPEAKER_04]: kidding.

[SPEAKER_04]: So let's talk about Saturday.

[SPEAKER_04]: The workshop.

[SPEAKER_04]: What does this look like?

[SPEAKER_04]: What can somebody expect before?

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, probably anyone could benefit from it, but someone who might be experiencing the symptoms that could be related to shame.

[SPEAKER_03]: So people pleasing, even anxiety [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the need for perfection, the worrying, the planning, the trying to control everything.

[SPEAKER_03]: That can all be related.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, those are kind of the things that I would say would be useful in this context, in this workshop.

[SPEAKER_04]: Do you think, what about someone that's physically like not feeling well, do you think?

[SPEAKER_04]: There's a common connection with like physical manifestations, got issues.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you mentioned anxiety, but mood stuff, maybe, general, lethargy here.

[SPEAKER_03]: It could be.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think that a combination approach to physiological pain or medical nature experiences, I think, that kind of taking a combination approach of, you know, [SPEAKER_03]: getting better with but also the body is stuck in stress from a emotional thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right, those tools are going to be limited.

[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not saying that you only use a somatic or a emotional based approach.

[SPEAKER_03]: And forget about, you know, the medical doctors, or vice versa, but I think that having those two approaches together can be really useful and beneficial.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, and I remember all the healing stories I was listening to around like rhyme and mold toxicity.

[SPEAKER_04]: There's just so many...

[SPEAKER_04]: common things are you here where people would hit a wall until they until they dealt with emotional stuff and and that's and i i think it makes sense like because of the nervous system just running the show if that emotional stuff has you stuck in some low level stress response [SPEAKER_04]: It's like your body doesn't really believe that it's the time to do all the healing things.

[SPEAKER_04]: Right, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_04]: There's a chronic stuckness in that fight or flight or whatever.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, you have to survive.

[SPEAKER_03]: Otherwise, you know, what does it matter if you're digesting properly?

[SPEAKER_04]: But also, I think when someone doesn't feel well physically, not only is it hard to connect those thoughts, it's hard to like hear that.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's hard to believe it, it's hard to believe that [SPEAKER_04]: you can have some kind of emotional release and that's going to be not necessarily like a magic bullet, but like that's the pivot point where the healing really takes off.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well I think of the body sensations as a messenger, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like if you're being delivered a package that you need to sign for and you know the delivery person's only job is to get you to sign for that they cannot [SPEAKER_03]: go on to the next job until they get you to do that, the messaging is going to just amplify, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: They may start with a knock on the door, then ring the door bell, then like start banging on the door, kicking on the door, shouting, and it just keeps amplifying and amplifying until you finally listen or you receive the message, and then it's like, okay, I'm out of here, but you're going to learn.

[SPEAKER_04]: to listen your body or you're going to be forced to.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, but it gets [SPEAKER_03]: So uncomfortable that we want to do everything we possibly can to not experience it, where the way out is through, and sometimes, like you said, your body finds a way, and it forces you into, you have to slow down, you have to rest, you have to listen.

[SPEAKER_03]: It just gets bigger and bigger and bigger until you can't not listen.

[SPEAKER_04]: So, circling back to the Saturday, so it's really for anybody, emotional stuff around shame could show up in just a myriad of ways.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I would also say that it's for someone who is ready to take some amount of responsibility and be willing to see themselves a little bit more clearly, even if it might feel uncomfortable.

[SPEAKER_04]: Might sting a bit.

[SPEAKER_04]: What's the thing, how long is it?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's actually three hours.

[SPEAKER_03]: It'll be broken up in a lot of different sections.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's some resourcing or learning how to find ways to take care of yourself during the workshop so that you have those outside of it.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's some lessons I would say are teachings.

[SPEAKER_03]: and then we'll work into some guided practices where we're looking in more at a little bit more and trying to understand ourselves a little bit better, some journaling reflection to integrate or to solidify or clarify what you experienced, and then we kind of go through that a couple different times.

[SPEAKER_04]: Hi, is there any hypnosis in it?

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, so all of the guided practices will be hypnosis-based, but they're very specific processes to learn different things and to work through some different [SPEAKER_03]: aspects of like first awareness building, understanding, getting some clarity about where the pattern started, some healing or potentially interchild work depending on the individual.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then the third phase of it would be more integration or embodiment.

[SPEAKER_03]: And with that, because I said, [SPEAKER_03]: there's going to be an additional recording to use after the workshop that you would do on a regular basis to really integrate what came through.

[SPEAKER_04]: That sounds great and I know a lot of people probably want to work with you and between your limited schedule like the relationship of the demand of your time.

[SPEAKER_04]: And the supply of your time, this will be, I think, a lot more accessible for a lot of people to get some of your skill, your wisdom.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it goes through a similar arc of a personalized session.

[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, it's not as personalized or interactive.

[SPEAKER_04]: But I assume people could still work on some of their personal stuff with the prompts that you'll provide.

[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely, yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then afterwards, anyone who attends live will have the recording when it's broken down into the self-led course.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you could go through it again and work on a different issue that you might be experiencing, or if someone can't attend live, [SPEAKER_03]: It takes about a week to get it edited into the course afterwards, but it'll be available for anyone who wants it after, you know, if they couldn't make it live.

[SPEAKER_04]: Great.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, assume you put a link that people could click to on this if you're watching this or listen to this.

[SPEAKER_04]: We'll try to make a link easily available, and is there anything else you want to add about it?

[SPEAKER_03]: No, I'm just looking forward to it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I really enjoy these teaching opportunities and it's been a little while since I've done one of these.

[SPEAKER_04]: You've always liked the group scenario.

[SPEAKER_03]: I do, yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's fun.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's been a way to do this.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's probably better for a lot of people to have that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and just so that people have an understanding of what to expect in the live event is that it's a webinar-based, [SPEAKER_03]: interaction, so no one's camera is on, so it's very, you know, safe, safe container, and you can kind of follow along in the safe space of your own home and just, you know, enjoy the energy of the group without having to be fully seen or uncomfortable if that would make you, you know, feel a little unsafe.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, Sarah, with that, we'll wrap it up.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for walking all the way across the wall to sit with me this morning.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's nice to hang out with you in this capacity.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_04]: And maybe we should do more of these.

[SPEAKER_04]: We just, everybody's so busy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, we should see if they even, if the audience even wants us to do more of these, maybe they can let us know.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, yeah, do you do that?

[SPEAKER_04]: Speaking of the audience, if you got this far, grateful for the listening.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you.

[SPEAKER_04]: And check out the workshop or webinar this Saturday.

[SPEAKER_04]: So this will probably go out Tuesday, so you've got a few days to prepare mentally.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and if anyone hears it after the date is over, the link will still work to get the the follow along the self-paced course.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: All right.

[SPEAKER_04]: Well, thanks again.

[SPEAKER_04]: Have a great day, everybody.