This Hope Radio for the Masses headline of this July eighth, nineteen forty seven.

The Audi Air Force has an outstart applying this.

Helping found and there's now in the possession of the ad with the game is really changed, the game game change.

I occasionally think how quickly our difference is worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside.

This work.

Day to Black.

It's your host, Jimmy Church on the Game Changer Radio Network.

All right, good evening, how you doing.

How you doing?

It's fade to black.

Yeah, Today's Tuesday, December sixteenth, twenty twenty five.

Let's do this.

Man.

Our guest tonight, the one and only Richard Dolan.

Last night Kimberly Meredith was here.

We talked about soul frequency in all of her work.

Tonight Richard Dolan.

Tomorrow night, Sarah L.

Caldy is with us.

She's an alchemist.

And then Thursday night is our twelfth anniversary special event and it's just an AMA hangout.

I'm gonna hang out with all of you Fader nots and yeah, yeah, that's how I want to do it this year.

Normally, every year we bring in a bunch of guests and friend and parade them through.

I know this year, I just wanted to hang out with the fat or knots, just get to hang out with all of you.

So that's going down Thursday night.

But helping us celebrate tonight, Richard Dolan is here.

I do want to mention really quick the next event for me coming up.

I've got a full slate every month in twenty twenty six.

But the next event coming up is the Conscious Life Expo, which is February twenty through the twenty third, twenty twenty six at the Lax Hilton.

I'm going to leave that right there.

I do want to say happy holidays to everybody, and this is a very fun week for me, and we get to chalk up another year and then head into I can't believe I'm even saying this year number thirteen.

Wow.

All right, so tonight Richard Dolan joins us.

Richard and I seriously we're in soundchuck.

He's like, so, what do you want to talk about tonight?

I don't know.

What do you want to I don't know.

Okay, all right, let's have fun.

Okay, that's what we're doing tonight.

I titled the show after Disclosure because we have so much stuff that is going on right now.

I follow Richard and his comments and his take on the current state of affairs, and he's always got a pretty brilliant way of looking at it.

He doesn't always agree with the flow of things.

He's got his opinion.

He's a historian, he studies, and he writes some amazing stuff about the subjects.

So tonight I'm going to get into his brain and two friends are just going to have a conversation.

The list is along with Richard of course books like The National Security State Volumes one and two, eighty after Disclosure, with Bryce Zabel, UFO's in the Twenty first Century Mind and of course the USO Current Series and his focus as well, so much more.

And he's got Richard Dolan members.

He's live I think every single week, and his links are below, okay, and on our website and throughout social media.

I'm going to keep it short and say, welcome back, Richard, Happy holidays, my friend, how you doing.

Hi, Jimmy, Hey, thank you for having me here, and congratulations on your twelve years twelve year.

Niver Crazy twelve years ago, you and I right, twelve years ago, twelve.

Years ago, and that show.

We've told the story so many times now, but that show and the way that we met, you know, with the tree in the front, the way that we met.

It was a rocky start, my friend.

People don't know, but I was walking outside with a whole group of people to go into the facility to talk with you.

This is in LA And because it was like a multi it was I think LA.

Move on was it was a move on?

Yeah, it was a move on.

Yeah.

And so I get a lot of the moof on events.

I would sell books.

So I've got I've got a carton of my books that you.

Just published that was first century mind.

Yeah, yep, yeah, yeah yeah.

And and I'm talking to people and suddenly smack a tree branch, a thick tree branch, walked right into.

It, get hurt.

And the funny thing about that story, Richard, seriously, and I'm not making fun of you, it's just how it went, Just how it went down.

Richard sticking his hand out to shake my hand, and he's kind of looking at the ground and at that moment he walks into this tree branch.

And it took five seconds because Richard looks at five seconds.

You know, Richard looks at me and he goes, am, I okay, and is lump just popped in?

It's five It's like like an egg.

You're fine, man, You're fine.

All the ladies walked you into the restroom and got makeup on you.

And because we that was a live we were doing fade to black, but with video live.

It was a live video raircet time we met.

Yeah, it's crazy, oh man, And here we are twelve years later.

So there you go.

And are you ready for the holidays?

Yeah?

Yeah, Tracy and I have a nice place here.

By the way, you're not the only one who comments on my ability to knock things over and stub my toe and bump into things.

My wife will tell you about that.

I do that every day.

It's a nice little bench here.

We're doing great holidays.

We got some family coming over in less than a week and I think that'll be fun.

And we stayed busy.

Everything's good.

How about for you same here?

You know, I got my little tree up here in the studio and I've been to a few holiday parties.

I'm gonna spend it with my daughter of course, and uh, you know, exchange gifts have dinner and do all of that stuff.

And I just love this time of year.

It's you know that the run.

My birthday is in October, right, so and you and I discussed this all the time.

So my birthdays in October, so it's it's October then then it's Halloween, right, and Thanksgiving, then Christmas in New Year's and for me, it's just like all back to back, and I just really enjoy this time of year.

I do.

I do.

I love the Christmas music, and I love the Yeah, I love the lights on the trees and and the and the houses and man, yeah, yeah, it's my favorite time of the year.

I have to ask you, you know, this is funny.

You know we've got such a so many different little traditions at you and I have between each other and the music question at the beginning of the show, people.

Expect it now, ye yeah, you kind of fell off it for the last few times.

I'm not here to criticize you, mister Charity.

You reminded me that was funny.

I remember the last show you go oh and by the way, the last song I listened to so but and we were talking about music earlier and what vibes is these days.

So what did you listen to last today?

Did you listen to anything?

I did?

I had a song on earlier today, and it's funny because I had forgotten that I was on with you tonight.

Of course, well no, because I usually don't forget, but for the moment i'd forgotten.

It was another song by Steely Dan, one of my favorite groups of all time, and it was their song FM Extended Version.

FM is a really great song.

My Desert Island album, which just tough, right, That's tough, especially when you love music.

But it's a toss up for me between Van Halen two, their second album, and Steely Dan Asia.

Yes, Asia is possibly my favorite album of all time.

It might be the best.

It might be the best album ever made.

Yeah, it's honestly.

I mean, you've got to really be a Steely Dan fan maybe to understand this, but it's essentially it's perfection.

They really just created something perfect.

But I like a lot of their other stuff.

I'm a big fan of.

The Royal Scam and that's a great album.

Katie lied, and I mean they just Fagan and Becker in their amazing studio session.

Guys, Michael McDonald did a lot of work with them.

They just were so they're unique.

They're a unique man.

I mean, it's about as cool as like maybe the coolest musicians in American history might be like the bebop guys like Miles Davis and Colchrane sunglasses and just but like maybe a close second place might be the steely damn guys.

Yeah.

There for me, they were able to.

When you are a perfectionist, because that's what Fagan was.

Fagan, you know, and in the pursuit of perfection, he had something in his head and anything that wasn't in his head wasn't good enough, right, and so, but good studio musicians, the great ones.

They love that ship.

Yeah, they love.

You know, that that fight for perfection and doing it.

And so they they they had an a list, they had a.

Uh you know, their group.

They were able to bring in the absolute best of the best of the best of the ast to.

Achieved jam on drums on age his outro on the time Don't Cut.

Was Larry Carlton, you know, stop him by.

It's just a lot of people don't know these musician greats are.

But those who know, they absolutely know how amazing they are.

Yeah, yeah, and uh uh the bass player that played on all the.

Okay, it escapes me right now.

But the point is the.

Absolute, very very very best that would put up with the stress of perfection, right, and that's not everybody's cut for that, not not everyone.

Was really lucky to hear them.

I actually got that album.

This is back in those days.

I used to be a member.

I joined, I should say, the Columbia Record House Club.

Still all money.

I think I quit before paying them everything I did, so probably that's a good point.

But I had this great intro deal back in those days.

You get like ten album for dollars.

Yeah.

Yeah, And it was the very late seventies I was.

I was fifteen, so it'd be like nineteen seventy eight, seventy seven, seventy eight, and that album was brand new, and I bought it and I fell in love with it.

I was fifteen, sixteen year old kid and I was I realized just that this was something really special and I've never stopped loving it.

So it's my favorite album.

Somebody it was Bill just posted it was Chuck Rainey.

That was the bass player, Chuck Rainey Man.

Thank you Bill, Charles Rainy.

Nice Chuck knows that.

No, m it's chuck.

But I was listening to Last Time.

We're going to get into UFOs and everything.

Everybody in a second.

Just don't you worry, just hang on.

Yeah.

But last night I was listening to Brian Green and his audio book Till the End of Time, and he said something in the book that I had never caught before.

I've listened to a probably fifty or one hundred times, no exaggeration, it's like my bedtime story.

I just popped that off and absorb it.

But he said this thing last night that caught me.

Chapter four on consciousness.

He said that one of the greatest inventions that came out of consciousness was song.

And it stopped me.

It stopped me.

I went, that is a brilliant statement, you know, not he could have said anything right there, but he said song.

And you know, here's a physicist, right dry, dusty, pragmatic physicist talking about consciousness and music and funny yeah, and I can't argue with that point.

There's the philosopher named Arthur Schopenhauer who said something kind of similar relating to music.

You didn't really talk about songs so much as music, but he said something to the effect that of all the art forms, music was the deepest, deeper, more more resonant, more immediate than in visual arts or any other kind of form of expression.

So there's something about it, because you're really talking about especially for a physicist like Green to say this is really music or song is mathematics in a way, mathematical relationships.

It's organized information when you think about it, that resonates with us biologically.

There's something about that, because that's really what it is.

It's like it's I mean, think of Bach, you know, mathema, Maddox, perfection, and and it hits you in your body.

Yeah, the frequencies resonate with your cells, and all the liquid and chemicals in your body resonate to those frequencies your brain.

For sure, there is I don't know if you've seen the movie Valerian, and if you haven't watched it, for one hundred percent, watch it.

Luke Bessant and he's never made a bad movie, right, So Valerius science fiction flick, really good.

But the reason.

Yeah ten years maybe eight years ago, really good though about dimensions and and think so anyway, Valerian and the Thousand Planets.

So, but the intro sequence, which is five minutes starts from the beginning, is set to David Bowie's original cut of Major Tom the guitars right to ding ding ding dinging right and that start, and it's a parade of different extraterrestrial species meeting on the iss the space station and coming in and shaking hands with everybody over a few decades.

It's it's pretty incredible.

But that sequence wouldn't mean shit without David Bowie, and it takes you through this whole emotional thing because the song is a powerful song, and you combine that with the visuals of these different et races and it becomes something else altogether.

And it puts a lump in your throat.

And that's the power of music, you know, that's the power of music.

Totally true.

It affects everybody who's who is immune to music.

I don't want to know that person.

I don't want to know that person who's immune to music.

Not not anybody else.

Surrounded my musiclmost I mean every day.

Yeah, yeah, we want it, we crave it.

Have you big news today?

Have you seen Steven Spielberg's trailer for Disclosure Day?

I just saw it today and I was familiar with with, at least generally.

I mean, there hasn't been a lot released about this film to my knowledge, but I saw the trailer.

It's I think stars Emily Blunt, and it looked good.

I don't really know what to say about this at this point.

I don't really know that I had a positive or negative reaction to it.

The it's like, okay, I like that.

I like, that's a good reaction.

To crazy, And it's like, now, what do we do?

And the world deserves to know?

Like those are the messages the world needs to hear the truth.

So this is apparently where Spielberg is going.

The question I guess I have is what is this truth that he that will be revealed in this movie?

And will this just be another exercise in human beings inserting, you know, fill in the blank mythology to decide what disclosure is going to be.

I mean, I'm not saying it's a bad idea.

I'm just like, I really know that it's going to blow me away.

Here's I've watched the trailer a few times, and here is my take.

He listens to us.

I think that he listens to fade to black.

I think he's seen it.

I think that he listens and reads Richard Dolan.

I think he's got his finger on the pulse of the community and also the broader spectrum of the rest of the world.

Because there was a couple of little things.

There's a couple of little nuggets in that trailer that you and I have talked about.

Not so much.

Others, because I don't listen to a whole lot of other people besides you and a few others.

But life is busy and I'm focused on the show and my work.

But he said a couple of things.

One he said that it's our right as humans to know about life in the universe.

It's our right.

And I've said that a million times.

It is our fundamental right.

This shouldn't be secret.

There's no reason to hold that it's our right.

There's things to keep secret.

I get that tech that you don't want to fall into bad hands, but the knowledge of.

Life in the university of government.

Yeah, yeah, that's that's our fundamental right.

And that was mentioned in that in the t and I found that very very very interesting.

I caught that, yeah, And so it just.

Bielberg has a long history with this.

Most of things.

You know that.

I mean, he did Close Encounters of the Third Kind almost fifty years ago.

Is in't that nuts?

Et the Extraterrestrial?

He did the Taken series about a little over twenty years ago.

Eight millimeter eight millimeter, yes, is right, yep.

And of course there's this spiel the World.

You can't forget that wore the World?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the Tom Creue.

Is that one that was good?

Yeah?

Yeah, it was good.

Yeah.

It's obviously something he's really into.

And there is has been that rumor which I believe, I mean, is not confirmed, but I think I believe it where Spielberg was told by President Ronald Reagan after a screening of There Was Et the Extraterrestrial in the nineteen eighty.

Three I guess at the White House.

At the White House, Reagan privately supposedly said to Spielberg, there are I think six people in this room who realized just how true your movie is.

And I think this was another a month of comment on this, the other pop culture mythology tied to that that Reagan said, they kind of looked like you're ET too, and yeah, you know it's so how do you how do you unpack.

Is it a situation where you know, where there's smoke, there's fire that this actually may have happened between Reagan and Spielberg.

I think so with the Spielberg start, I'm trying to remember how that one came out.

I think that might have been through Jamie Shanderay.

So he was the associate of William Moore, who later became kind of drum out of the UFO community, but more during the eighties was the superstar in the field and was more in Chanderrat, who basically were the first people to get access to the MJ twelve negatives that became to MJ twelve documents.

Chanderrat is kind of a strange guy, like what is his background.

I'm sure he must have had an intelligence community background in some way that we don't really have the full information on.

But he was associated with Moore for a number of years.

He was supposedly a filmmaker.

If you look at his filmography, it's total nothing, practically nothing.

He wasn't really a filmmaker, so he was what was he He supposedly met with Spielberg and got the story from Spielberg, and if he was a spook, if he was someone with these shady connections that might explain why Spielberg might have been willing to tell him the story that whole.

Wasn't that a strange era?

You know, the whole.

Stanton Friedman, Jamie Chanderray and William Moore and the documents which you know, fresh off of the other stuff that they were doing, and William Moore, you know, Roswell and some other things that were happening all at that same time.

And then magically, because that's that intelligence background that I think you're alluding to, an envelope just shows up in the mail with a role of film in it just happens.

To be that.

Yeah, crazy, and then you know, you have Dodie and you have William Moore and this other stuff and os I, you know, a fo s I and what may have been coming out of Kirkland or maybe out of the Pentagon and d C.

Was this all just one big zyop?

You know, I don't know that's immediate go to that everyone has.

And I guess I would just say yes and no.

Yes in the sense that there are obviously groups within the bohemoth that is the United States National Security State.

There are there are all kinds of independent and semi independent groups that do their thing.

They in theory, they they may be supervised by another higher organization.

But I think there's a lot of independent activity going on there.

There's a lot of groups that have their own agendas.

So yeah, disinformation, absolutely, But I've always believed, I believed back then, I believe now that there are always factions involved.

So when we talk about psyop, it's like, sure, but whose syop?

Is this an official US government syop?

Or is this a SIAP by just this one this one group here or And I think some people will like this and some people will not like what I say here.

But is a situation where there were people on the inside, as it were, who wanted legitimate information to come out.

I mean there are researchers who will say the MJ documents are completely fabricated, and then there's others who will say, well, there's truth in those documents.

Stanton Friedman, who you just mentioned, did a lot of research on those documents and you know, found many very intriguing things supporting their potential authenticity.

We don't have to go through all of those things.

Now, people can research it, can ask your AI to what did Stanton Freedman say about it, but the fact is he did, and some of them are very arcane, And I've always believed if it was a syop or disinformation, it was way more sophisticated than anyone in the UFO real research field does.

No one was that, Like, you do have to ask yourself, what was the US government doing to throw disinfo out at the research community.

There was one good motivation that they had back then, which was in the early eighties, you had really for the first time a lot of new documents being released through freedom of information really starting in the late seventies and by the early eighties, it was actually a problem, like there were many documents that were not maybe the perfect smoking gun, but they were pretty darn good, pretty compelling documents to prove that there was a genuine interest that the US government had in these UFOs because there were inexplicable sightings that the military had to deal with and that was now out in the public domain.

And then the other problem that they had to deal with was there were stories of crash retrievals like Roswell, but also more than Roswell that were starting to seep out.

That was a two pronged threat that if you are guarding the secret, you had to worry about.

And so for that reason, I think putting out true but fake documents like MJ twelve would be a really valuable thing.

I say true but fake in other words, disinformation.

Really I don't think would be effective if all of it was totally false, because then you'd think, Okay, what's the point, Like, if you you're being fed disinformation and every single thing in there is false, it's really not going to be very effective.

It will be it will be effective if you you sandwich something that is true in between a couple of things that are false, so that you kind of inoculate the public against that truth.

And I suspect that's that's the thing with the MG twelve, those MJ twelve documents, and so for that reason, I think they're still worth studying.

Like when people say, well they're fake, don't read them, I think, well, I don't really think that's a great policy, and I would, you know, I would say even something beyond that for the Majestic documents, which are housed by Ryan and his late father Bob Wood, which if you print all of those out, that's like an inch and a half thick.

A lot of documents there, and many of those were not from film.

In fact, most of them were not.

They were actual pieces of paper that you can study the paper, you can study the ink, which Ryan and his father did do.

Those I think are a much more high probability of being legit personally.

I remember, I remember you and I.

I was on a long drive and I was in my car and you and I started talking about the MJ twelve documents and we did it for a couple of hours, and we didn't agree on everything, and I was, you know, being a little dickish, maybe in standoffish, but here, here's here's here's the thing.

And I remember mentioning this to you.

I I'm a little paradoxical about my attitude about the m J twelve documents.

On one hand, I look at them as coming from Chanda Ray and that was all shady and I don't really trust it.

But on the other hand, this is this is where I'm confused.

Those were typed.

People don't understand that that was that was on a typewriter with a ream of paper, and you are not using white out right.

You are typing correct documents page after page after pai formatted correctly, and if you're going to hoax that, the amount of people that would be involved with with the research, the timelines, the locations, the personalities, the nouns and verbs, the correct you know, all of the amount of effort put into the hoax is extraordinary because there's too many people in this community that are very very smart that are going to read through that and pick it apart very very quick.

And they did, by the way, But the amount you just mentioned, we're talking about reams of paper.

You make one mistake, you pull that out of the typewriter and you throw it away, You feed in another piece of pay and you start over, because.

You can't make mistakes.

And that's so I'm torn between these two things.

I'm I'm almost leaning on.

I think that they're actually authentic because of all of all of the points, the logistics that I just mentioned.

You know, I'm torn.

I'll just mentioned so yeah, for people who are not aware.

So they are the original MJ twelve documents, which came in on a photographic negative back from olden times, and that was just seven or eight sheets of paper when they were developed, so that's not very much.

And then starting in the very early nineties and through that decade a variety of many many other documents they are known collectively as the Majestic Documents, were obtained through various means.

A lot of them were purchased by Bob and Ryan Wood from the researcher Tim Cooper over in Big Bear, California.

There's a lot of and he had his own very interesting connection.

But others.

One was mailed from.

Wisconsin, wis Duncan, Yeah, across.

Wisconsin to Don Berliner who was a UFO researcher at the time, and those that was the special Operations manual.

One dash there or one.

It's very interesting, which I still contend is the real deal.

I believe that.

I think that it is.

I mean, we don't have confirmation and so I wouldn't.

I can't treat it as confirmed historical truth.

But yes, I think it's I think it's probably real.

I think it's a genuine document.

The thing that I would say, which is what you just said about the Majestic Documents, it's you know, they're like this thick.

I printed them off.

I was just looking on my shelf.

If I can reach over and get them after the break I'll bring them over, but there's a lot to read.

And when you read them all there's so much information it's it's really unbelievable of such an extensive detail and in specific typeface styles that were suitable, and I think all I don't think any of them has been definished, definitely proven to be a hoax.

Stanton Friedman thought he had determined one to be a hoax, the so called white Hot Memo for Nathan Twining.

I don't know, I don't know that I agree with that.

I don't know of any other argument to disprove any of the other arguments documents, these styles are so varied, the subject matter so sophisticated.

If these were a hoax, you really have to ask who would have done it.

Certainly not one guy.

It was a team effort.

It would be a team of high level PhDs for this specific purpose of creating an unbelievable discinfol like and for who for the UFO community.

Why was this an issue in the nineteen nineties that it had to be diffused in this manner?

And by the way, those documents got almost no public attention public this day, they haven't no, no, no, Who would they be designed for.

That's such a great point where if we look at and by the way, tomorrow's December seventeenth, right, it's like the UFO community's Pearl Harbor Day.

Right, December seventeenth, twenty seventeen is tomorrow.

And wasn't it December sixteenth, Jimmy, was it the sixteenth or seventeenth?

Which is today?

I think it was the sixteenth, December sixteenth, twenty seventeen.

It's the Mandela fact.

Don't throw me off here, Richard, okay, one.

Of the one of your listeners.

They will correct, Yeah, they will.

They will throw me under the bus.

Is is that?

Is that that drew in so many new people to the UFO community and disclosure that that don't have the historical view on the past.

The MJ twelve documents inside of the UFO community was frigging humongous.

It was a big big deal.

I did the same thing that you did.

I printed them out.

You know, back then I had little laptop, I had some little screen, you know, but printing stuff out was better than reading it on computers.

But anyway, I printed them all out and I read all of them, and it took me a long time.

It took me forever.

And then I flipped the stack over and I read through it again, and I really absorbed it.

But it was a big deal.

And we look at today the Senate hearings and yeah, it's all cool.

Everything is right right, Okay, I get it three I atlas.

Yeah, this is crazy things going on the MJ twelve documents.

Man, that was a big deal.

And people don't they don't have a concept of what we went through back then.

Well, the community has really gone through major transformation.

I mean we've really gone into and I'm not saying this is all bad, but we're developing a kind of attention mania to this field.

And when you think about it, like really the community has gone from like a research culture to like attention culture.

Really, you know, like for decades and decades this the subject UFOs moved kind of slowly, right, I mean, but that that slow pace forced a kind of patience like people would do like deep casework or archival digging or like long form argumentation and very cautious claims.

Well sometimes, but today, like the dominant environment is like it's an attention market.

It's an attention market, and so like, so the incentives really reward.

Whatever produces immediate engagement, you know, like urgency and novelty and drama and all that conflict, so that that I think naturally pushes the field toward a kind of manic rhythm, which is what I I think, this is what I see.

You know, it's like and when you have people who are trained to expect constant updates, which is now the case, it's like when there are no updates, it feels like, oh my god, what's wrong.

Like the community like just starts to confuse.

It's like nothing new today with the truth is being withheld today.

So I mean, to some extent, maybe I'm overstating it.

But no, you're not overstating it.

I think you're understating it because and it's not what is going on in the UFO community with this information age that we find ourselves in, which is you know, up to hear.

Everybody is on this news cycle that is seconds long.

It's not twenty a twenty four hour news cycle.

It's minute by minute.

People are checking their phones every few seconds for an update that's about to change the world, and it continues.

That's everybody's day, all day time.

It's like there's a disclosure calendar.

Now that's like replaced whatever.

What are we used to have?

I don't know.

We would have like evidence thresholds that we would reach, like instead of evidence leading to conclusions.

Maybe it's like we have this rolling schedule of these promised turning points, like the next hearing, right, or the next inspector general move, or the next insider revelation, you know, the next movie, the Spielberg movie, the next whatever, the next book, whatever it is.

It's like we it's like the community treats these as like these episodic events in a series, like and each one's like hypes up, hypes up the content and the hope.

And but I think that's a fundamentally unstable structure because the promised payoff is it's just not gonna it's really not gonna happen very likely.

So so then the goal ships like so the community, it's like people become invested in the anticipation itself almost.

It's like so every new memo or every like Alizondo's memo just made it public, you know, last this week that he wrote last January, that was like another new thing, a new bombshell, even when it doesn't really change anything.

It doesn't doesn't change the evidentiary landscape at all.

But where we're just on this, it's like a kind of mania.

And I just I'm not saying it's bad.

I don't share the mania, so I guess I see that as an outsider, but I do think it's it's priming people for perennial disappointment and disillusionment.

And I don't know, it probably won't end perfectly.

We've got the disclosure hope.

You know, it was like fifteen years ago I did.

I did coast with George Norri.

It's had to be fifteen years ago.

And he said, Richard, will there ever be disclosure?

You know that?

And that beautiful voice of his, and uh, I like, we've we've just been We've been on it.

And I look, I wrote, I co authored a book on it.

So who am I to complain?

I'm not complaining about it, but I just, uh, I just feel like we're enveloped in this hype and the culture.

We just can't help ourselves.

We just keep hyping it up.

It's like, uh, every new bit of information is like another.

It's a consumer market, Like I mean, think of it this way, like in a in a healthy research culture, new information would be integrated into like a stable framework, like it changed a model, or strengthen a thesis, or answer a question, whatever, create or open a new question.

But in a manic cycle.

If that's what we have, information is treated like another product.

It's like we we purchase it with our attention.

It's displayed, we compare it, we argue over it, and then we move on to the new one.

And why have we allowed as humans?

Why have we allowed that to happen?

And what I'm saying is we have allowed our.

Attention to be focused.

And if the attention isn't grabbed, we now have it in our DNA to change focus and go that direction immediately.

And and if if whatever it is doesn't hold you, we move on to the next thing, and the next.

Thing, like social media in general, right.

Yeah, yeah, And it's got to be bigger and bigger and bigger to have an impact or it doesn't get our attention very important things.

If it doesn't grab us right away, we now allow ourselves to.

Just I mean, look, the subject is important, it's very it is a highly significant subject.

We're talking ultimately about what I think is a highly advanced, very sophisticated non human intelligence that has a large presence in this world and is actively operating with whatever massive infrastructure they have.

It's very effective.

So they're doing things here.

They're not overtly interacting with us.

They don't apparently wish do that.

I've got a lot of thoughts about that.

But they're not doing that unless it's on their terms.

Like if they want to take someone, if they want to have an interaction, it's on their terms.

So it's all very important.

It's extremely important.

So I would never wanted to dismiss the fact that people are interested in it.

Well, and if we take it a step further, I guess what I'm trying to impress upon you and the audience is that because we're so in tune with that style of attention grabbing things headlines and everything else and clickbait and grabbing your interest and whatever it is, YouTube shorts, whatever it may be.

Right, But.

With the UFO subject and disclosure, if it isn't constantly notching itself up, yeah, people just will go the other direct.

It's like there's a reward system that people have developed for certainty.

It's like, Okay, this proves it.

It's over the dam is broken, disclosure you know, is inevitable whatever, And I think like statements like that probably produce engagement.

Caution does not produce engagement.

And so I tend to think that this our community will self select for personalities or for narratives that offer certainty, you know.

I mean, look, maybe I've probably done this myself.

I mean, I will present information about this subject and as authoritative a manner as I can.

So if this is a problem, then I would be one of these people contributing to that problem, you could say.

So I'm not trying to say it's a horrible thing, but I think, like we just we're in this.

I think the problem is, Look, we're dealing with the subject that is a really difficult subject.

That's just the reality we're dealing we are dealing with in intelligence.

I am quite convinced they are well beyond us in every cognitive way that I can think of.

And they do not intend to communicate en mass with us.

I'm convinced of this.

They have no intention.

If there is ever disclosure that's different from contact, they're not going to do contact.

I know there's people out there and say, well, they've contacted me, well, maybe they have, maybe they haven't, but even if they have, they're not doing it in a coordinated manner that's engaging with the entire society.

And for a reason is we actually I don't really think we can handle contact with them.

I don't think we can.

But I guess what I'm saying is this is a very, very, very difficult subject, and it is not helped by the fact that world governments, led by the United States government, have created an entire realm of genuine lies and fictions and disinformation about it that they need to maintain for their own preservation.

And so I don't think they're ever going to give it up voluntarily.

And even if it looks like they're giving it up, I don't think that they're really going to.

You know, I often think of the truth of this subject of aliens and UFOs as this mountain.

And if there's ever a government, if there's ever a president who discloses, I can guarantee you it'll be one little sliver of that mountain, and it'll be the sliver that is best designed to keep this system that they are running, this system of our society, as stable as possible.

They don't want to rock the boat and disclosure is I mean, it's a deeply destabilizing subject.

I mean in so many ways.

So we have to we have It's difficult to.

Expect, but we have to rip off the band aid.

I mean at some point this it's it's such a fundamental question.

It's a non trivial issue.

It's huge.

Who are we?

What happens after we die?

Are we alone in the universe?

That's and and two of them.

Two of them may not be answered anytime soon.

Right, where do we come from?

And what happens after we die?

But are we alone in the universe?

We we are close to some official stuff now, I mean, you made a really great point.

I don't want it to get away.

You said, some have said they I've.

Talked to them.

Right, Okay.

Two weeks ago a paper was published.

I'm not going to get into the details of it, but a paper was published peer reviewed from a materials scientist.

Material scientists, pragmatic, non spiritual, right, black and white materials.

I can't imagine anything drier than that.

Published a paper.

And in that paper she said, I've looked at the math.

Consciousness is first then matter, that's space time, But consciousness is first.

It is not created in the brain through a chemical process.

Now that changes things.

And if science now starts to accept that consciousness is first and non local, right, that's a game changer.

But let's go back to your statement.

I've talked to them.

If that's the case, that consciousness, and I believe that it is consciousness is the connection of everything, then maybe a lot of us can unintentionally or intentionally tap into that.

Yeah, I agree with this.

I hope it didn't sound like a skeptic of that when I said, no, not.

At all, not at all.

No, it's reality.

I don't agree with that.

I've come to I've come around over many years too, something very close to that belief myself.

I guess I would say that the fundamental substrate of our universe of reality, that would be information.

First of Roger Penrose, who's at a thousand times smarter than me, said something the same, said kind of the same thing when he said, you know, mathematics is not invented, it's discovered, and it's a fundamental element of reality.

That is information like it exists independently of space and time in his view, and it's that seems right to me.

I think there are.

And then when you get into consciousness, for a whole array of reasons, both personal and intellectual, I think that it's true that consciousness we all have.

There's there's a non local element to consciousness to all of all of us.

And and furthermore, I think that I probably believe that these other beings are even better at it than we are.

So so when, like in Star Wars, you detect the disturbance in the force, I think it's entirely plausible to me that how would we be found in this universe?

Well, if you're level of if your brain is even twenty percent larger than ours or even greater than that, and you have the ability to not only detect things remotely like remote viewing, but probably to have that ability far far more powerful and refined than we do, then maybe they could look for other parts of the universe where there's consciousness that, like them, has developed the ability to engage in abstract thought and mathematics and philosophy.

And they're like, oh, those people over there can do it, and maybe if they have an ability to detect us in such a way.

I realize it's totally speculative, but is it really completely out out of bounds.

Maybe there's a way that they can find us too.

We don't know how to do it.

We don't know how to generate the energy to bend space time.

But there's some physicists even around today who speculate about certain ways of maybe doing it.

So maybe they figured it out, so they have a way to detect us, maybe through consciousness.

That would be my best guess that's how they found us.

And then they're like, all right, we're going to take a look at these people because they're becoming interesting now.

And by the way, they've got a really cool planet.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I like that.

Here, we have to accept one thing, and that is we can only understand what we can understand today.

We our ability to understand increases every day, right, but we can only take things so far.

And so a physicist will say, oh, you know, that was based on the laws of physics.

You know, No, that's impossible.

Well, that's because of what we know, right, you know, and and so going beyond So if somebody anything can get here their ability to understand, no, it's it's beyond our capability of understanding it.

Just is.

This is why this is why they can't really talk to us.

You know, we are bugs.

You remember you remember three Body Problem, You remember the message from from ET you are bugs.

That I think the next season of that's coming out.

I can't wait, I can't wait.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's kind of true.

It's like, if you have let's just say, uh you've got even a fifty greater cognitive capacity than we did.

That's not much, let's say fifty percent.

And uh, so you have an IQ of like five hundred and plus you're hooked into each other through a hive mind in some way?

How could and you?

And that incorporates an intrinsic, like almost physical understanding of space time in a way that we can't really gather like, so that it would allow them to manipulate space time if they need to.

And maybe also it allows them to have an ability to perceive what we would call the spiritual realm or the non local realm.

For them, that may just be an ordinary fact of their reality.

So if they're all of those things, again it's a big if.

But if they were, how the hell could they just talk to us?

And what's in it for them?

I thought of this the other day that a man.

Well, just and also think about it this way.

What if here on Earth, we humans suddenly were to learn that chimpanzees were suddenly becoming really small, like they were looking at us, and they were gathering together in groups, and they were communicating with each other, and they decided that they needed to communicate with us.

And furthermore, they were reproducing and becoming a very dominant society in their ecosystem, and they were starting to want to move into our turf, into our neighborhoods.

How would people react.

We'd be like, get the hell out, keep those chimps out of here.

They're dangerous.

We wouldn't want them around.

We would probably send a couple of specialists.

Now, we would move them to Chimp Island.

We would get them the hell away right right, because we wouldn't want them.

We wouldn't want them around.

I don't believe it, some people might.

I think most people would be like, no, thank you, go over there farther away, go over there, like that would be us and so.

But we somehow think, or maybe maybe we don't, but I think some of us think, oh, yeah, aliens would love to talk to us like we are.

We have never in our history not had wars.

We have never not killed people on.

First Yeah, yeah, we've never not shot first.

We are I mean, look, and I'm not even saying that to condemn us.

We are what we are.

Collective organized violence is actually a very effective strategy for a lot of things.

We don't like to admit that, but it is true.

That's why we do it.

So it's like our evolutionary success strategy.

It allows us to dominate all the animals, allowed us to dominate all the plants.

We don't think of chopping trees down as an act of violence, but what else is it?

We just do what we want man, And so they are looking at us, and maybe they have been the same way.

Maybe it's impossible to get to such a level of technological attainment without basically pushing every other life form on your planet around.

Like like, really, what we are is we are Earth's premiere organized crime group.

That's what humanity actually is.

Like we organize and we just take over the joint.

So so they see us, they say, Okay, they're clever, they're constantly invented.

They're very volatile, these humans, they notice a lot, but they are such like they also don't know themselves at all, and they also like think they know all these things that they don't really know.

They're not evolved.

Yeah, so like they like, we're probably just so loud for them, we're probably just like so everything uh too tumultuous.

Very likely, like why the hell would they want to hang out with us?

If they if they if they saw me, they would think that the rest of the planet is just like me, loud, self centered, assertive, you know I by but yeah.

No, you bring up a really good point.

And and so then when we look at there's been examples of this in the past, but certainly it's been verbalized where you have these scientists and physicists will say, well, you know, we'll communicate, you know with math, you know, one plus one equals two, and we'll talk about hydrogen and helium and and and we'll just talk math and algorithms and then we'll figure it out from there.

And I know, no, that's not even close to what it's going to be.

I would imagine.

Here's here's Neil de Grass Tyson's Pandora's box et steps off the ship.

Neil de Grass comes up and goes, dude, equals mc square whatever right, right, and et is gonna go.

We haven't done math for five hundred million years.

Okay, that's that's it's all about.

It's all about consciousness.

And I could imagine that being the case where you have evolved past that and you figured this out.

That's that's that's the key.

And you know the other Yeah, the other message from E.

T.

I swear to god, you know what, it doesn't get it doesn't get better, it.

Doesn't feared out that I mentioned information earlier is what I think is the true substrate of reality.

I think it is because what we humans figured out really all all life forms, all all of energy and matter.

I guess I would say it's really just packets of information when you really get down to it, organized differently and they have their or different relationships to each other.

We figured out how to mass and manipulate information to modify our environment, and we also discovered that through mastery of information, we could create things that gave us real power, like mathematics.

We discovered mathematics and we use that too unlock the universe.

I mean, with this information, we've been able to send probes that have left our solar system, so we've we we did something that's an incredible leap, and this must be a universal quality.

Yes, like this, this must be we did it.

There must be the case that other species have also discovered that the case to mastery is harnessing information in ever more complex relationships.

Because that's the other thing that we've done.

Our information, our society, our social structures, our sciences have become ever more complex.

You know.

We we go from you know, scraping off wood to create a spear tip, to manipulating atoms to create meta materials and things like this.

So in two hundred years too, think about that way we went from bows and arrows in seventeen hundred nineteen hundred, it's discussing atomic structure.

Yeah, that's insane, that's right.

Yeah, we we cracked.

We cracked the code as it were.

So where am I going with this?

You know, it's just like I think, we oh, oh, this is what I wanted to think.

So so for I mean, I guess this is obvious.

But for any advanced intelligence, it has to be about if they're going to continue to evolve.

The evolution is actually an evolution of the complexity of information and of the systems that we create.

In other words, we create We've created this global system, right, which is a vastly more complex global system that humanity has created than what we had five hundred years ago.

And it's pretty complex then, and it's it's vastly more complex now.

And and along with that is a greater, ever greater complexity of mastery of information and data.

So I think that is the evolution it's It may involve an evolution of consciousness.

I'm sure it will, but to me, it's really about data.

It almost sounds crazy, but like information itself wants to be can't become more complex.

It's like it's beyond us, where like the we're just the vehicles for it, like we're the current vehicles on this planet or for this process.

I think it's a process that it was waiting for the right species or the right vehicle to express its ultra complexity.

I mean, I'm gonna wax poetical here, but it's like God, let's say the consciousness of the universe, which I do believe exists, and I let's call it God.

Why not?

Is uh is kind of waiting for for this informational complexity to express itself and have a more sophisticated ways.

Why not?

Okay, we're gonna take a break.

Here, quick question and then we'll take a break.

If you had.

What you were given one question to ask at what would it be.

I'm going to tell you what mine would be, and then all right, mine would be how did you do it?

How did you survive?

How did you not kill yourselves off and allowed yourself to evolve?

How did you do it?

What's the secret?

That's that would be my question.

My next question would be about van Halen, but that's that's something else.

What would your exactly exactly?

That would be number two?

What would your question be to E T?

Just one?

Don't get one?

Uh?

Maybe I'll think about it during the break.

I'm not sure I like your question, although I have an answer to that.

But what the hell do I know?

Oh?

What's your answer?

Well?

I think what they what they did is like when we talk about aliens.

I don't think we ask always the right questions.

It's like are they good?

Are they bad?

What are their motives?

And this and that.

The more I think about it, it's like the question I would ask or not the question I would ask the concept that I guess I would focus on is what kind of system explains the behavior of them and their craft.

I can get into that more.

Okay, but would we understand the answer.

Well in the case, to answer your question, I think they didn't destroy themselves because their system reached us a level of complexity that forced a rigid adherence to certain behaviors uh and to a certain uh rigid type of coordination with each other because because the system demands that they can't they can't be like Captain Kirk and Star Trek.

No, they can't do in their own thing, right.

I don't think.

I don't think that's how that works.

I think when you get to that level of complexity, you have you have the ability to destroy entire planets.

Most likely there there's got to be you have the ability to destroy each other.

So there would have to be a kind of totalitarianism that they engage in, you know, very rigid uh controls over everyone, and they're probably hooked into a kind of hive mind.

Yeah, Mick Jagger, Yeah, Mick Jagger.

Mick Jagger once said in Rolling Stone Magazine, this rookie journalists asked him the dumbest question ever, Right, how do you explain your gun's success.

Mick Jagger goes, we didn't break up.

Now stop and think about that answer.

That is the right answer, right.

I don't know what philosophical washing this journalist was hoping was going to come at him, but he got the truth.

And I think that would almost be the answer from e T.

You know, well, we stop killing each other.

It's as simple as.

That, because they had to.

Yeah, that's what I mean, right right, we just had to.

We just stopped killing each other.

It's not deeper than that.

You don't have anything else.

The thing is, like I do think, I know if you want to go to break did that anytime?

I just think if they have you know, technological mastery, which I'm sure they do.

Maybe this is just a failure of my imagination, but I have a hard time imagining them as prey species.

Uh.

I see them as as predators that are, and if and if they were prey as as we once were prey, they became predators by learning to master their environment.

I'm sure they went through a phase where they just dominated all the other animals and plants of their world because it couldn't help it, because frankly, any animal would do it.

You have to have to survive that had the ability, yes to to control its environment.

Would would do it?

I mean we we I love birds, but you've got to listen to birds there.

They're beautiful songs that actually just say, stay the hell out of my territory.

I'm over here.

Baby birds are birds are gangstaff.

They totally are totally and if you gave them a posable thumbs better watch.

Oh it'd be over.

Oh it would be It would be Richard.

Stay right there.

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All right, welcome back Fade to Black.

I am your host.

Im me surch tonight, Richard Dolan is with us, Richard bleeping Dolan.

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It's it's, it's it's a tradition or guess tonight, Richard Dolan, just an open conversation between friends.

Richard, I wanted to ask you about.

Fear.

Is fear being presented to the world when it comes to this subject today?

Is that an approach to control or attention setting?

Or is fear not being presented?

M Well, I hear you know people talk a lot about fear mongering and potential threats in this type of thing.

I guess that you could say there's some fear in or at least potentially in those statements.

I personally don't sense a whole lot of fear being portrayed in this subject.

I mean, I really don't.

I guess I would ask why why you asked me, like, what's your perspective?

Do you think that that is the case, because I'd be happy to talk about it when I seeing it right right.

When I hear the subject being shut down because of a national security issue and taking it in that than any you know, like normal person would look.

At that and go, okay, so what is it that they know?

Okay?

Why should yeah?

Why should I be so nervous about this?

Right?

It does get What you see with this subject is that it's really become you know, we were talking in the last segment in part I was talking about it becoming really consumerized, which is definitely true.

But but it's also you can see like, well, I'll just mention the publication of Lou Alizondo's memo from earlier in January of twenty twenty five was just publicized about a week ago.

You did an interview with Ross Coltart and it came out.

And what Alexander had done is he wrote a letter to President elect Donald Trump proposing the position of it basically a czar of this of this anomaly was he called the EA anomaly.

I can't remember the acronym that.

In other words, he wouldn't he didn't write a letter to Trump basically saying this is an amazing mystery.

He didn't write a letter saying there's this massive cover up.

He didn't do any of that.

He was extremely bureaucratic.

And he's saying, there's this phenomenon including UAPs, including advanced drones by other countries and all these other things.

The UFOs UAP get folded into that, and he said, we need a government coordinated government response to that, because we don't have a coordinator response.

So it's very bureaucratic.

And that's what's happening to this subject.

It's becoming folded into the whole national security behemoth.

And so it's becoming bureaucratized and to the or at least know even with the Arrow Office, and you know, to the extent that Congress is able to do anything about it, is also bureaucratizing the phenomenon.

And in a sense you want that, in the sense you don't want that, Like there's a pro and con to it.

But what it will definitely do is it will I am sure it will enable establishment government voices to have a lot of control and influence might be a better word, over the whole discussion of the subject, which we have seen, like to the extent that this has become a mainstream issue.

I mean, you don't really hear anyone talking about abductions anymore.

That's all gone.

You don't really hear you don't even really hear a lot about a cover up, Like there's indications that the government's hiding things, but no one's really digging into this, and you still have government people playing this little game of pretend like, well, there's this phenomenon, we don't understand it, we're going to look into it, like this is where we're at.

So so I guess there is a fear and it's being it's being expressed as bureaucratic control.

You know.

It's like this subject is a threat to this system, this system that we live in that is managed by this political and economic elite, you know, and and they they are seeking to control.

That, and they've always used fear for that control since the dawn of times.

Fear or a kind of deadening or dulling, Like it doesn't always have to be in the direction of like we're going to scare you.

It could be like they have they may have fear of this getting out, but really The best way to to deaden this subjec is basically just you know, give people drugs.

That is entertainment, and you know, just throw it into the circus of every day the news cycle, and and you treat it like any other policy like you and that's what it becomes.

It just becomes another policy issue, but without any web that any real depth, because what policy issues in this country are really ever handled with genuine depth, you know?

So I think that's that seems to be what's happening here.

You're seeing you're seeing the establishment taking its steps that it sees as necessary to take control over this conversation.

I mean, that's what it looks like to me.

What do you make of I mean, if there was something to be afraid of when it comes to ET, we would never know because they would just ET, would just do it.

We wouldn't even know.

So what is there to be afraid of?

It?

Whatever it is, it's it's it's out of our control.

So there's no reason to to panic over something that is that is out of your control.

I kind of say I can get that.

I mean, look, if they're all you can say when you experience all of the all the little data points that come at you.

I mean, for me, I've been in this field for more than thirty years now, and so in that time I've had reason to believe that, I mean, this sounds crazy, but I have I have reason to believe that there's more than one type of group here, and maybe not all of them are are all that great, you know, maybe one of them is a cause for serious concern, maybe more than one.

I mean, we really haven't gotten to the bottom of what abductions really are about.

We've had a couple of theories, you know.

The most dramatic and scary theory probably was put forth by doctor David Jacobs, which is the replacement theory, that is, there is a group that is here.

They have creating hybrids that look like us.

They are mostly us, except they're connected to them, and they're doing their infiltration in preparation for what he said that his people, his abducties said was the great change.

The great change is coming.

The great change is coming.

Well, maybe we're living in the great change right now, by the way, just thinking, but he interpreted that as a great change in which the aliens would just overtly take over, don't I don't know if that's how it would go down.

But it's entirely possible that his research is not off base.

I mean, you know, I know there's people who believe him, there's people who don't believe him.

So and then on the other end of the spectrum you have the people who are quite convinced that we're dealing with a very benevolent group of beings that are not here to harm us, that are trying, in whatever capacity may be limited capacity, to help us and help us from stop destroying ourselves.

If that's the case, how do you even do that?

How do you actually likely realistically stop humanity from doing the things that it does?

Like we keep thinking, well, we want them to save us somehow, save us from ourselves, but how would that actually happen without without causing really severe, severe problems.

It's like, so when you talk about fear, I mean, there are things that we could be afraid of, Like.

What I mean, what is there to be afraid of?

That's that's that's my key thing.

Well, in connection with with aliens or just in general with aliens.

My point being that if I walked around all day long contemplating and pondering negative ship, that would occupy everything and change my focus.

It is, if.

Something bad is gonna it's just gonna happen, and then you have to deal with it.

But but thinking and you know, being enveloped in fear over something that you don't have control of, Well, I agree with you, Yeah.

I don't.

I don't believe in being consumed by fear.

I think that's a really unhealthy and also unproductive doesn't really help you.

You know, people in this community, we've met many.

Everyone reacts a little differently to the deed the rabbit hole.

They don't.

We don't react the same way.

Uh.

There there are some folks like I've met, who have a very high tolerance for, uh for their worldview being turned upside down, and they have a very they have a high tolerance for even potentially unsettling realities about this or or any phenomenon.

And then there are people who don't have a high tolerance for it.

And you can see, like there are folks who become kind of messed up by an engagement with this subject, could be any number of subjects, not just UFOs.

But we all do react differently to it.

We don't all react the same way.

There is there's definite.

You know, you talked about that Spielberg movie Day of Disclosure and or Disclosure Day or whatever, right, And in the teaser that I saw, it was a two minute teaser.

There was a lot of fear in that movie.

That movie portrayed a lot of fear, a lot of terror.

So that might be the way Spielberg's going in his portrayal of it.

But he's doing it because he is a master storyteller, and he knows, like people are very likely to become afraid a certain number of people, especially like if there is a genuine like a disclosure, like I mean, I almost can't imagine how it could possibly happen in our world today.

But let's just say the president could be Trump, could be whoever comes after him says you know, yes, folks better or for worse, It's real.

There are other non human intelligences here acting in our world, Like there would be a lot of people who become afraid.

And then you'd have to ask, are there bases like ten miles from your house?

Yeah, an alien base somewhere yep.

And probably not far from someone's house, I mean underground, maybe under the ocean, but maybe maybe in someone's neighborhood.

They're certainly hanging out over people's neighborhoods every single night.

What we need read the reports of the National UFO Reporting Center.

There's always like some two am triangle, black triangle over someone's house.

What are they doing?

Everything is taught, right, Very rarely is something like brand new.

You know you're taught.

You take that piece of knowledge and you expand on it, whatever it is.

Gutenberg Press led to this, right, Okay, you know what I mean?

Okay, so.

ET could help us, but not in the way that you think.

But it could be a lesson, that's all, you know.

It's just some existential present, you know, not something direct it's fixing things.

But it could be something maybe deeply philosophical.

I don't believe in philosophy.

It's a bunch of bullshit, but it is.

It could be something as simple as, look, you guys are focusing on yourselves.

There's a whole universe out there with life in it, and you need to focus on the expansion of who you are and think about that.

And just that's how ET can help it, because we need to be taught where we could go.

Okay, all right, so you just told us right, and I think it could be something simple like that, not math or curing of cancer or you know, fixing pollution or whatever.

You know.

I don't like where you're going with that, and it's got me thinking, you know, we may want to ask ourselves, what would it take for the human race, truly, truly to be ready for a genuine disclosure like we have this assumption we're ready.

Now, let's just think about this, right, all right, So go back a million years and imagine you're a time traveler and you're observing these early human type creatures.

You really want to go up and introduce yourself to them.

You would completely mess them up.

You would screw up their whole psychological development.

It would really not be a good idea.

Okay, so that's off the list.

So now let's just go back, you know, five thousand years now, you're an ancient sumer.

Do you descend as gods and teach the peopleeople?

Some people think that that's what happened.

I don't believe that's what happened, by the way, but very likely it would probably mess people up.

They wouldn't know how to understand this, would they.

I mean, I don't know that they would go back two hundred years back to you know, time of Thomas Jefferson, and like would would an alien race?

Would?

Would it be a good time?

Then?

I don't know would people really be ready for this?

Would it wreck our development?

Like the question is when would we be ready?

Are we ready now?

Are we ready now?

I I don't.

Maybe we're becoming more ready the more that we if we think about this, if we think about them.

But I guess what I would say is this, Like the last segment, I was talking a lot about systems and all this stuff, and maybe people are wondering what the hell am I talking about?

So I guess what I'll say is in addition to finishing my second volume of USO History, which is done, I'm just preparing for publication.

Wanted it done for Christmas.

Not ready for Christmas, but it will be soon.

But I've also been thinking a lot this last year about non human intelligence, just in general, and the one that moves us away from personalities and intentions and emotions and really towards systems and behavior.

It's like, I feel like we tend to imagine aliens as beings who are they're either friendly or the hostile they're curious, or they're benevolent.

They're waiting for the right moment to talk to us.

But I think that assumption itself is very human, and I tend to think that a more realistic approach is to ask what advanced intelligence looks like when it has learned how well how dangerous power and complexity can be.

It's like, think of it this way.

I've been really trying to study the behavior of UFO, UAP craw and USO craft, and from what I see, a lot of what a lot of what I see about their behavior makes sense.

Like they come in, they check you out, and they're gone.

They come in, maybe they abduct you, They do their thing, but they don't have a conversation with you.

There's no cup of coffee where they just shoot the breeze, none of that.

They do what they do and they're gone.

The silence from them, however, is not indifference by them.

It is risk management.

It's like when you have a highly advanced system, whatever human or otherwise.

I don't think they operate casually.

Like as intelligence grows, or as information system complexity grows, the consequences of mistakes become a lot more serious, Like communication from them to us is destabilizing.

And if they start communicating with us and we start having this feedback loop, if they're doing any kind of study of this civilization like that would completely wreck the observation, you know.

So what it looks like to me is their behavior shows distance restraint and mostly observation and occasional intervention.

And I think that's exactly what you might expect from a civilization that has gone through its own little technological adolescents and they have learned that interaction with us is probably not We're probably just not ready, Like I think it's going to be a while before we're ready, but maybe we need to become more stable.

We're not a stable civilization.

We are very unstable.

We are going through the most profound, in many ways terrifying transformation that we have ever gone through in our entire history as a species.

Right now, we're going through an entry into what is a completely new phase of existence.

That could end that could end like that.

Yes, yeah, so we're we're.

I'm not talking about nuclear wars and that's there too.

Just one cme blowing out our satellite constellations and electricity here on Earth.

It'll be ten thousand years before we are back to cell phones.

Could being we're in a very unstable, very complex infrastructure that won't I don't think it will take much to throw it out of whack.

It's already kind of out of whack, and and it can easily get worse.

So they've got to be thinking it may not even be possible for them to fix us.

That's the thing.

Like we've got this this fantasy of Diosex Machino.

You know, they come from beyond to save us and pull our collective asses out of the fire.

But what if they really don't know how to do that?

What if it's not possible, or what if they don't care or they don't or if they don't care.

What if they don't care.

When I walk across my grass in you know, in my front yard, it's it's wonderful.

Do I stop and consider a baby lizard that I just stepped down and killed, right or all the insects that I just killed, or I don't care.

You know, I'm not being a cavalier here.

I just think that they look at Earth and think, wow, this is a really great planet.

I would like to think that I think we have a great really amazing.

And they know that, and I agree with you there, they know this is a beautiful blue jam We Richard, we are doing what they have already done.

We are looking deeper into space, looking for exoplanets, looking into their atmosphere, seeing what's cool and what's not.

They've already done all that, and they noticed Earth a.

Long time ago.

Shit, check this out.

They got beaches man, right, you know what I mean?

And right right right, And so they've been aware of us only because as an example of one, we only have us to look at.

But what do we do?

You know, every day we're out there.

Looking at the stars and figuring things out.

And we've learned so much in the last twenty years about what the universe is.

We absolutely have, and they've had to adapt to that.

I think I think they've had to adapt to our our path over the last century or more.

I think when I look at their behavior, this is what I think.

They're not totally hands off, because you look at the abduction phenomenon, that alone suggests something you could say unsettling.

It's very selective, very controlled engagement there on their terms, not public contact.

There's no mutual dialogue.

You have targeted interaction with individuals or families with our biology and maybe even our consciousness, yes, our consciousness too, So that combination you have a civilizational silence on their part and paired with this individual intrusion, it doesn't look like visitors looking for friendship.

To me, it looks like a long term monitoring and intervention program.

And what I would say from that is it implies to me that humanity.

They may not look at humanity as anything like a partner at all, or even as a threat, but as a volatile system.

We are a volatile system, and we are rapidly advancing.

We are internally violent, we are capable of destabilizing our own environment.

We're very good at that.

So from that standpoint, I don't think.

I don't know if aliens are waiting for us to become ready in some moral or societal sense.

I think they're managing risk in the way that they deal with us.

So I think when I think about them, I don't think any that much any longer about like what do they want from us?

It's more like, think what is what is the nature of their system that explains their behavior?

So that's why I'm talking the way I do I think that they're I think they have a very complex, very controlled system that mandates risk management in interaction with us.

There are two things I want to bring up really quick in the time that we have left, and one of them the subject of panspermia, which you know really took hold in the early seventies and the concepts are out there well now with the asteroid menu and what has been discovered on that.

You know, we took a scoop and brought it back to Earth and we found twenty amino acids complex and the five the five proteins that make up DNA.

So we have the amino acids that make up RNA, the five complex proteins that make up DNA in one scoop of dirt from a random asteroid.

It's pretty amazing.

So last week.

Another press release came out.

The other asteroid that we visited and got a scoop and brought it back was Ryugu.

Guess what they found on Ryugu?

Are you are you ready for this?

Hit me?

Trip to fan Wow, Thanksgiving Thanksgiving.

Fall asleep sauce on Ryugu.

You know how complex of an amino acid Trip to fan is And it's just floating around in deep space and we find it on a random asteroid?

Are we how confident?

Are hundred trip defan now?

Now?

But what what that suggests to me is a couple of.

Things, and it should be huge news, like you were saying earlier.

It's like big news.

Right.

It's not an intention grabber, right, it's not a fear thing, right, it's not a threat.

But what it does tell me is that if we landed on the only two trips that we've made to ask, the only two right where we made scoops and brought it back, we found the key ingredients for life.

So how much of that is out there?

And if we are two out of two, we're batting a thousand.

I did a baseball thing for you there, Richard, we're batting a thousand, And how much of this goes on throughout the universe.

Well, if it's if.

We're two for two, I say the odds are pretty good that this is what is happening throughout the universe.

Yeah, there's so many ways to look at this.

I mean, you know, the rare Earth hypothesis has many adherents within the astronomical compute community.

Doesn't mean that there's no other earths like ours.

But I think a lot of them believe Earth is quite unique and rare, and they've they've got some good art ements by the way for it.

But it also the idea that you know, Earth developed life.

It is believed.

I mean, Earth is four point six billion years old.

I guess I think that the consensus is, like we started having life at least by four billion years ago, so relatively early.

For almost all of our history it was very simple, single cell, very simple organisms until really the was it the Cambrian explosion half a little more than half a billion years ago, So like it was a long, long, long period of time where we had very very simple forms of life on this planet.

So but I do think, you know, life, life is, it's out there.

I think this is a universe that's abundant with life.

I do.

I guess, like you know, there's God.

You got to go from this threshold of first of all, you have to have a place that can harbor life, and there's there's got to be enough of those, okay, But then a place that can harbor life for a long enough period of time to develop a rich enough ecosystem that the life forms themselves can evolve in competition with each other for resources, because that's what drives evolution, to allow them to create a life form that is complex enough to do the things that we do.

Like, how long does that take?

It took It took Earth four and a half billion years to do that.

It might it might be a faster, a faster you know, road elsewhere.

It's not impossible.

The real key, though, is once you get to that level of consciousness, complexity, informational complexity that we have, then what does it take to maintain stability of that system?

Because it is it seems inherently unstable right now.

How do you stabilize that system so that it can then go on to whatever stage it needs to in order to actually achieve interstellar travel or interdimensional travel or whatever it is.

That's the next step for us.

We don't how to do that.

I try to understand the best I can with these other intelligences that I think are here, are doing and how do they do it?

And I tend to think that they've developed a I don't even this is not even attractive to me at all, but basically a hive mind, totalitarian type of system.

I mean, hey, maybe I'm wrong.

I'm sure there's people who think that that is wrong, but to me, it just seems most logical.

I just whatever it is, and this is the opposite of science or the opposite of what you know.

Brian Green is going to say, you know how difficult it is to go faster than light and the laws of physics.

You know, that's bullshit.

You are thinking like a human.

You need to go way outside of the box.

And I have seen I've seen stuff with you, we've seen stuff together.

The yes, we have the the ability to do what they are doing is easy.

We are trying to make it so complex because we don't understand it.

It's frigging easy.

It's easy for them.

It's easy for them for you to jump into you just you know, you've got a new place, right so you need you need some new dry wall or whatever.

You've got to get some trash compactor bags, whatever, what do you do?

You can do two things.

You can jump in your car, drive to the store and come back easy two hundred years ago.

That's black magic, voodoo shit.

But you can do it to sh and soor or.

You can order from Amazon.

Well that's pretty complex, we figured that out right.

But it's easy for us to do.

It's the same thing with et whatever it is that they're doing.

They're driving to the end of the driveway and checking the mail.

I think it's that easy for them.

Well, I bet you're right.

You know, I mentioned Roger Penrose earlier.

It's not like I'm some expert in Roger Penrose, but I really admire him and I do try to listen to him sometimes, you know, videos and here and there, and you hear him and Stuart Hammeroff talking about the microtubules in our brain like that.

To them, that's like, that's the gateway, it seems to me.

I mean, maybe I'm grossly misinterpreting them.

That's the gateway to non locality of understanding.

I mean that that's the gateway to our minds being able to perceive things that are non local, that are far far away from us.

And so let's just say that there's a truth to that, and that you have beings that have a certain percentage more of those microtubules and a certain percentage more of a cognitive complexity that they've been able to attain a complexity that allows them to intrinsically understand things that are absolutely just beyond us because we couldn't do it.

Look, we couldn't, at least it's believed by paleo anthropologists, for example, that humans could not develop complex language until we reach certain thresholds, including certain cognitive thresholds.

We just couldn't do it.

Before that.

We could, We could do various forms of communication, but language, and it's grammatical complexity, it's recursiveness.

No, not, we couldn't do that until we reach a certain level.

And and and imagine trying to communicate with a with a creature, even an intelligent creature that can't do our language, like a chimpanzee.

They can't.

They can't really understand, like they're smart and they could kill you too, but they're very intelligent, but they you can't really have a deep conversation.

You can't talk to them about interdimensional cannot No.

It's and so I think that relationship exists the other way for us too, And yeah, I think you're right, Like for them, this is easy, but the question is will it ever become easy for us?

And maybe it's not impossible.

Like the thing we're doing with artificial intelligence now is like you can see that we're going on this kind of exponential arc of like, well, the one thing AI does in addition to creating AI slop and all the you know mistakes that GPT makes and all of that stuff.

Yes, it does all of that, but it it is able to help us manage complex pieces of information more easily than ever before.

Just like when people got their first personal computer, you know, thirty plus years ago.

It did that as well.

Like I remember, I started using computers in the nineteen eighties and I was blown away.

I thought this, this, this remakes my life as a writer.

And it did, and it made it much better and easier because I was able to, like everyone else, handle more and more complex forms of writing in a much easier manner.

And so with all the new tools we're developing.

So AI is the latest, it won't be the last.

I don't think it will be the last.

Or maybe it'll be the start of the last, who knows, but it is.

It is creating orders of magnitude, greater levels of complexity that if we're able to piggyback onto some of that, we might be able to we might be able to unlock certain physical secrets of the reality that we live in.

Whether we'll be able to really handle it wisely as a whole other question.

Well, let me give you an example of my positive outlook for this planet, dovetailing on exactly what you're saying, can we handle it?

Well?

I think three I at Lias is a really good example of the curiosity about this because inside of our community that's a different story.

But the rest of the world.

Was clicking on that clickbait.

Mm hmm.

Right.

And so here we have an interstellar visitor that this Friday is going to be at its closest approach to Earth, and NASA has promised that all of the imaging is going to be done and everything is going to be focused on it.

Okay, that's great, But.

The interest of it being e t the possibility of that some example of et approbe whatever it is, you know, not natural, that's a genuine interest.

And I think that nobody is thinking it's doomsday or armageddon.

Now it could be, it could be natural.

But the curiosity from the rest of the planet is genuine, you know.

And I don't see the public freaking out on that or religious or even political divides.

Yeah, but I think because most people don't really believe it's artificial.

I'm not so sure about that, Richard.

Really, I'm not so sure about that, you know what.

Okay, I'll take it.

I'll take it one step further.

They want it to be e t though, Okay.

Yeah, yeah, I think I think people would think, oh that'd be cool.

Yes, yes, in a very superficial way, In a very superficial way, because for it to be real, this is the thing we have with this subject.

Uh, even for even for most of us, like who may live it, you have to ask like how often is it actually real to us?

Like emotionally real in other words, real to the point where you imagine yourself sitting in a room with one of these beings?

Well, and so three I analysts gives us that possibility.

No matter what it is, it is real, right.

Yes, but it's it's flying by the earth, and it's and it is expected.

But it's Richard, it's a real quest U that people are asking themselves.

And that's what I'm saying.

This isn't uh, this isn't you know, speculating.

No, the object is there, whatever it is, and now the question is being presented to everybody.

What do you what do you think?

So, yeah, I think you're right about that I really do.

Well.

We're developing more and more ability to manage a lot of information, and that will continue to give us more collective power as a species to do all kinds of things.

But I still really wonder are we are we actually really going to be able to do any of this stuff wisely?

And based on what you've seen and read?

Where where do you stand on three I at lists.

I'm going to tell you right now, I think it's et.

I think I don't.

I'm not saying there's somebody on I don't know if there's beings on the craft, but I think that it is existing.

I think it's I think it's not natural.

Okay, I think it's probably natural.

I think I think it will it will pass through this solar system and will be gone forever.

That is, I have not seen any indication otherwise.

I have listened carefully and respectfully to Avilobe talk about it.

I have total respect for him and his profession.

But even he never has been dogmatic about it being artificial.

And you know all the arguments he has put forward toward his artificiality, I have.

I have read very thorough alternate viewpoints about that, some of them admittedly don't strike me as all that compelling, but others do, and I just I haven't really had a good reason to think that this is something artificial.

That's my take on it.

It's eat, Okay, it's et, it's e T.

Well, I'm gonna say, I hope you're right.

Yeah, I'm excited, Richard.

I've been at this, you know, walking lockstep with you for a very long time.

And I've been at this for a while now too, and it feels different to me.

It felt different when Project Surpo, you know, hit the web, and it felt different when Roswell surfaced.

Yeah, for sure it did.

It felt different when it felt different when But today it feels different to me, and I'm excited.

I don't know what twenty twenty six and twenty twenty seven are going to bring us, but I think that we're just inching closer, don't you.

Well, this is what I was kind of arguing against earlier in our conversation, like where there's this.

I mean, I guess I refer to it as a kind of mania, and maybe that's not the best word for it, but we have this.

This is a kind of constant drum beat toward getting closer we're going to have We're going to achieve this goal.

And I mean the phenomenon itself is we're still very far from having a genuine resolution as to what we are dealing with, in large part because of the phenomenon it self, because of the intelligence is behind it.

As far as getting answers, look, we've made I think tremendous and we continue to make great progress in understanding this subject.

If you look at where we are today as opposed to fifty years ago in nineteen seventy five, I think that this field has progressed tremendously in terms of a lot of the things that we understand.

So I expect that to continue.

But resolution, final resolution, I don't know.

I don't think that's going to happen in twenty six or twenty seven.

But the other thing about it, though, is we are We're in the most revolutionary period in human history.

We are in that and that is transforming us.

We have We have.

That, So I would be very foolish to say that tomorrow is going to look like today.

And and I've always said, you know, disclosure is a paradox.

It's impossible, but it's inevitable and it is.

It is both of those things.

It's impossible just on the on the logic of the system that we live in.

It's not voluntarily going to want to give that up.

But I think it is inevitable that at some point we are going to get at least a partial answer, a partial acknowledgment, a partial acknowledgment of the reality of non human intelligence operating here.

And you know, maybe we'll be around for that, I hope.

So it would be interesting to see I hope.

So, Richard, happy holidays to you and Tracy.

Just enjoy the holidays.

Always great seeing you, my friend and pleasure.

You know what's great about this conversation is how we started it off air.

What are we going to do?

I don't know.

I'll see at the end of this thing.

All right, let's do this well that It was just a great conversation, man, and just thank you for that again.

Really quick.

I've got thirty seconds and I want to get this in.

When is your live show at Richard Dolan members?

When do you do that?

Oh?

Well, I I have I have a public YouTube that I put videos out, you know, every week or two, and then I do I do video for the members of my website with regularity.

So I do a I call it a fireside chat podcast every Sunday, and then I try to do other other video and other other posts during the week.

There you go, and the links for Richard Dolan members are right there in the description over on our website throughout social media.

Richard again, Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, all that fun stuff.

Absolutely man, Thank you so much.

I will see you soon.

I don't know exactly when that's going to be, but.

It'll be fun.

Okay, we'll get it.

I'll talk to you, see you, Richard.

Perfect night on the show, Richard Dolan, everybody, and again Richard's links are below all of his books and everything else.

It is something that is not only important to me, but his contributions to this community or second to none.

So another great conversation with Richard, just to help me celebrate and with you twelve years on the air, heading into number thirteen.

So with that, I'll see everybody tomorrow nights.

For now, all I've.

Got is go backly Tappy.

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