Welcome to Someone Talked, the official podcast of the National D Day Memorial, where leading experts spill all the secrets of the Second World War with your host, doctor John C.

McManus.

Greetings, welcome to Someone Talk.

I'm your host, doctor John C.

McManus from Missouri, S and T.

Alongside, as always are my good dear friends partners in crime from the National D Day Memorial, A cheek Messier and John Long.

How are you on this fine day?

Hello?

John?

How are you today?

Tremendous?

We are doing well.

This is gonna be fun.

Well, yeah, it's a it's a different kind of guest we have today.

You know, he's a bit of a troublemaker.

He's you know, sometimes really hard to talk to.

We uh, I don't know it's gonna be And.

Yet somehow it keeps coming back.

He's like me, yeah, like we can't get rid.

We have tried, he keeps showing up.

So we figure, if we do this podcast, maybe we won't have to talk to him for a while.

So always the hope, isn't it.

But you know, he's so I guess we do have to introduce some so people know who we're talking about.

Is that right?

Yes, some guy named Kevin Heimel that is exactly right, been a guest on our podcast several times, especially about his research into the life of patent that are fascinating books.

And we give him a hard time and he gives it back just as well as he gets it.

But just a good friend to the memorial and to the subject of World War Two history.

Yes, Kevin is a historian and he also works well it's a historian for the US Army as well.

He can tell us a little bit more about that as we talking.

Also works at the Arlington National Cemetery.

He does a lot of tours, some of the tours I received at the battlefields, and as fantastic at that.

But so reluctantly we have him on our podcast today and we'll just have to you know, pepper him with some questions and put him on the spot.

And but here's here's something that's pretty cool.

He he does have a partner in crime, and that is uh, doctor McManus, and the two of them are launching their own podcast.

And so I think John and are very eager to hear a little bit more about this podcast because we were trying to wrap our brain around the two of you doing a podcast, So.

We want to hear a little bit more about do you ever get any actual discussion?

Started just poking each other in the ribs the whole time.

Well, John, I was looking for a way to basically sabotage and destroy my career.

Better way to do that?

Now, what is the name of this podcast that you guys are going to be doing?

Do you have a name?

John?

It is called World War two Live with a number two, as we always stress.

With their number two very good in April.

I just want to say, I am the Ricky to your Lucy and John Long, I am the patent of your eyes.

And how.

Wow, that's quite a description.

Ken, I'm never gonna look at Lucy all the same.

I love Lucy's destroyed for you.

Now, I love it.

We we are very excited about the about your podcast.

Can you tell us a little bit about when you hope to launch the podcast and about what you know?

How are you setting it up?

Are gonna be talking to different authors?

Are you going to be kind of discussing different topics amongst yourselves?

What's this look like?

Well, I'll tell you what.

I'm going to go back in time and explain how this really kind of started.

Back in two thousand and four, John and I met in Normandy during a sixteenth anniversary tour and it was one of those Murphy Law tours where everything that could go wrong was multiplied by five.

And at one point after we you know, we're in Normandy, we then took I think it was about five buses across Europe all the way to Birkdish Garden and at one point John and I were on the same bus, sitting up front, and we're talking with our our you know, customers, the people on our bus and everything, and people just start hitting us with random questions and John and I are passing the microphone back and forth, answering and just having a great time doing it.

And it was just it was just so much fun.

And then, you know, we became great friends.

We've we've worked in different venues.

John, you want to pick up the story from the We Have Waves fests, because I think when it dawned on you more than me.

Yeah, I mean, I had been thinking, you know, as the whole podcast world started to blow up, and you know, as of course as we started this podcast, someone talked and the other one I do called we have ways USA.

I had also been always thinking in the back of my mind that Kevin and I certainly had a really good chemistry and that we could compliment one another in terms of our scale and knowledge on various issues and places in relation to World War Two.

And we'd have that experience on a number of occasions, not just that tour, but other times where you and I had just answer questions of people and it was really a fun deal.

And so it just seemed to both of us that this was a really good opportunity to kind of have a free flowing podcast where the format is World War two Live.

We have a topic that we cover and it's usually like twenty to thirty minutes, sort of a deep dive but not overkill.

And then you know, it's just like, here's the topic, let's talk about it.

You know, maybe look up a date or two, but that's it.

Yeah, yeah, that's the extent of it.

And then and then the major segment to what we call stump the chumps and uh so people email in questions to us.

It's at by the way, the email addresses world War two Live at gmail dot com, world War two Live at gmail dot com, and it's a numeral too, uh not the not the Roman numerals.

But so you just you can email us any question.

We don't claim to know everything, but we we take a ticket stab at it and we can we can have a free ranging discussion on a lot of this stuff.

So we do that and then we the CAP's done of every episode is a little episode called what's You in which we just you say, what's you up to these days?

What are you researching?

Reading, you know, leading tours?

Whatever it is.

That's it's just kind of fun watching a movie, you know.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly.

So it's a it's it's very much a free throwing thing and it will air on all the like the audio platforms, just just as we do with someone Talk.

But the one dimension this will have is a visual site too, so it's also I guess what we would call a vcast, I don't know what the proper term is, something like that.

And so it'll be on YouTube and you can you can watch us humiliate ourselves and.

And you know, one of the big selling points John had with me when he discussed it, he showed me the graphs of your show and how you're rating Spike every time I'm on it, and so I said, well, that's what the audience wants, you know, we have to give it to him.

It would be criminal to not get me in front of an audience, I think directly there to.

Break it to you.

But that was like inverse.

So I think Keavin that I really think it's going to be very popular because I can't imagine that the two of you probably get some very interesting questions when you know both do Matifield doers and take me by.

I can't imagine some of the.

And what what do we win if we stump the chumps?

Oh?

Yeah?

Is there is there a price.

Satisfaction of knowing we're working on a cave right now?

But we're still in the design phase.

So for right now, it's just that that that glowing feeling that you've outsmarted the two greatest geniuses in the world World War two without dragging those those are John's words, not mine.

We're gonna start list now.

We're going to be incognito, and I'm putting questions into this.

Uh, send some email.

We're going to we smit questions through the Enigma machine.

So you.

Take four months to get to us.

All very secure could.

Well Enigma machine.

Well you might have to go over to Letchley Park and I'm trying to decode it and then get back with us.

That's okay, We're excited about the podcast.

Some of your strangest questions you've ever been asked?

We know the strangest, Well, the one that we just couldn't even answer.

We were breaking basically breaking the words down, trying to figure out what each one meant.

And John, what was it again?

It was the North Platt Canteen.

And North Platte River.

Was it River canteen or just North Platte canteen?

I don't remember whether the river was there.

It was North Platte Canteen.

Strike, Yeah, that's it.

Yeah, And so it said, please explain this to us, and we're like, well, North is up.

We know what a canteen is.

When you're not swinging a ball in baseball, that's called a strike.

Yeah.

Well, I mean we didn't.

I didn't quite understand what it was.

That was completely ignorant, honestly, and what it alluded to.

You know, The Stage Door Canteen is very famous for anyone who knows World War two.

Obviously, that's a place where GI's convened and were entertained and you could get you know, food and drink and whatnot.

This was the same version of that just in North Platte, Nebraska, and Kevin and I were just not familiar with that.

And yet it was a very big.

Platte because I lived in Platte City, Missouri when I worked at Fort Leavenworth, so I knew there was a river called Platte.

I think that's why I interjected the word river in there, because that's where my brain went.

But that was about the extent of my knowledge.

Yeah, actually, you know, hundreds of thousands of gis went through there.

In fact, our good friend Joe Balkowski told us that his father went through on the way back from the Pacific Theater.

So it's something that these two chumps should have known about in the title exactly.

So it's actually a learning experience for us too, because yeah, again we don't know what you think.

It couldn't hope to, but sometimes the questions are really instructive.

And so now I know a little bit about the North Platt Canteen.

Well, and I think thats documentary about it, which we we never would have known about it as question.

Yeah, And I think that's great because I think that helps disarm people who sometimes are intimidated by history and that oh gee, you know, if you're a historian, you know everything about you know, and it's you can't possibly know everything, and it's all you're always learning.

And I think that's that's great.

I think that's a nice tone that with your podcast, that I think that you're you're always learning.

So yeah, and we've actually gotten some questions from our friends like Joe Bolkowski and Don Fox, who wrote the two volume history of the Fourth Armored, and Don actually sent us a list of like five questions and they were all kind of related, but it was kind of neat that, you know.

It was we did the sort of the rapid fire you know, Q and A, and that was a fun challenge, mostly Fourth Armored questions.

It was because obviously Don knows more about the Fourth Armored than you and I together probably, but at the same time, you know, we were able to attack some of those reasonably.

Well.

It was maybe the hardcore, you know model of this tank versus that kind of thing that.

It was the little challenge of the Fourth Armored.

Yeah, nineteen forty one or something.

That was tough, that was tough.

So yeah, So so it's it's actually just kind of a we embraced just kind of a fun format and but but but educational, Like April said, I mean, all podcasts, I would hope would try and educate.

That the cover World War Two, that try and disseminate knowledge.

That's the ultimate purpose of it on some levels.

So so in the in the first segment, which is about you know, again about thirty minutes or so, Kevin and I usually cover a topic that focuses For instance, we did we did one on Omaha Beach.

We just recorded the other night.

We recorded several episodes about the Battle of Sicily, and you know that we really went kind of deep dive into that and over the course of several episodes.

And then there's topical stuff too.

We talked one in one about the like the organizational structure of combat units American US Army units and and hopefully not in a boring way, you know, I mean really trying.

To platoon to army group in a fun.

Way, but a lot yeah, in an inaccessible way.

Like Aple's point is a really good one, and I think sometimes people do feel sort of intimidated by history because you know, you're cognizant of what you don't know, and you don't want to look stupid or ask a dumb question or something.

And I really, you know, hope to to kind of put that to rest, to say, no, there's no dumb questions.

It's just come at it with what you have.

We'll meet you where you are, and and it's a so it's it's just kind of a fun, kind of a fun dive into that.

And the questions are fun too, because sometimes it's right in our wheelhouse and you know, you can go forever what was all the time?

Yeah, yeah, like if someone if someone asked you a question one time about some element of patent that you you had actually just written about too, and yeah, okay, let me tell you, you know.

But you know, it's also these are the kind of conversations John and I have when we call each other, he comes to visit, or I'm out there.

You know, this is the stuff we talk about.

And I think with John as a teacher and me with leading tours, you know, we're not talking super esoteric, you know, And I think that's that's a pet peeve or something that bothers.

It is when people start talking in super acronyms and stuff like that, and no, you know, that's the whole purpose of what we do is taking that stuff and saying, you know what, this is really cool.

You know, this is what's actually happening and stuff like that.

And you know, we don't talk about t O and ees a table of organization and you know, equipment.

We say, hey, this guy.

We we actually had an episode about different small arms weapons and what we're finding, especially like John.

When we talked about Omaha Beach.

You know, we were like, let's get into it.

And I feel like we said like seven words and the half hour was up, you know, and I think we started off at least out about John.

But me, I'm like, can we fill a half hour talking about a topic?

And you know, we did one on George C.

More Marshall and what do we cover Maybe a third of what we wanted to say about it, And we're realizing like there's so much more to tell and and like we're gonna have to go back to Omaha Beach and do it by every ten yards or something, because you know, John's written books about it, I've written interviewed vets from there.

We've traveled there so many times.

There's so many great stories that we want to share about this stuff.

Yeah, yeah, that really is what excites us, and so that So the format is generally that and then the questions or whatever, but we probably will going forward sometimes have other historians or authors on.

Yeah, maybe in livestream format.

You know, it's all work in progress.

You know how that goes with it with the pod?

Well, you do need to show a little more enthusiasm, I.

Think, yeah on board man, Yeah, let me ask about the medium because and of course we're you're talking to you know, you preached it to the choir here, because everyone listening to this podcast right now now is by definition a podcast listener.

But what is it about podcasts that are so you know, well designed for this this uh this topic and uh you know and and uh, you know, we all love podcasts.

I don't know how many you follow, but I've got a bunch of them.

But but what is it about about the whole idea of podcasts that we love so much?

They're cheap, they're easy build.

Some woody that I guess.

For me, what I love about podcasts is I listened to them on my time.

And you know, during the pandemic, I did, uh oh, was it noom or whatever to lose some weight, and you know, it said, you know, I gotta walk so much every day.

So I started listening to podcasts, and now I walk just so I can listen to podcasts, you know, because I've got my stack, you know, being the nerves that I am.

They're like seven World War two things and Office Late you know.

Yeah, I think it's accessibility, and you know, because it's the platforms are easy to deal with and to listen to for the most part.

The production has gotten to be pretty good for most And I think it's focus because you can find a podcast that totales well that whatever your interests really happened to be.

And we've discovered, you know, long ago, that there's a lot of folks interested in World War Two, and especially the parts of World War two.

The Kevin and I tend to focus on the US experience in the war.

That's, you know, our primary specialty.

And I think it's fair to say there's a lot of folks out there that are really into it because they know how important this is and endlessly fascinating and how we could be you know, we've seen this and someone talked, I mean, we could go on for years and years and years and still just crape the surface of so many elements of World War Two.

So there's no downside of that.

I mean, that's that's a lot of fun to explore.

Yeah, I was just thinking too.

I mean I was being kind of flipped when I said they're cheap.

But you know, think about this historically, like in the in the late forties and into the fifties, if you want to get on TV, I mean, there's three networks, and you know, it's almost impossible to do that.

And then if you want to get your word out otherwise you got to get in a newspaper or a magazine, you know, and so there were there were these expensive, you know, ways to get a word out.

And now with podcasting, you can pick the most niche topic you want and put a show together and people will find it.

You know, it's amazing.

I mean there's podcasts about knitting and just things that would never interest me.

But there is an audience, and you guys know better than I there's an audience for World War two like never before.

Yeah, well, it's informal it's fun.

I mean, you all have are approaching it too from that aspect of it's not.

You know, many many years ago you think of history, you just picture kind of the the lecturer at a podium going on and on about you know, and I you know, it's it's I think the great job of of you know, bringing uh to the forefront that history is fun.

It's it's it's very serious.

There's a lot of very heavy topics in there, and when you talk about it, you know that.

But at the same time, you know, there's some amazing stories that are just so fascinating that you have to tell and you can you can do that in a way that's both fun but also you know, educational.

So when you're doing it with a fellow historian, it's like you're triggering each other's brains.

You know, you talk about some Oh that reminds me I did write something about it, or I meant I talked to event about that, and things that like that I would never think of talking about.

When John starts telling a certain story that triggers, you know, something that I never even thought I'd be talking about.

And that's that's the fun.

Of it is.

There's so much flexibility to that.

And I think it's fair to say Kevin and I both believe very strong that history is for everybody.

I mean that that's what I'm saying, Like the accessibility has always been really important to both of us, that we want to reach the everyday person because that's the value of this on so many levels, that that you build awareness and you build understanding and education about you know, what works meant and how it still affects us to this day, whether we know it or not.

And and just we we believe, of course you know that it's incredibly fascinating and and so I mean, I I've pushed back against that from my entire career, that idea, that of just being an academic and writing for a dozen other scholars and that kind of thing.

First of all, I don't think that was ever a good model, but I think especially now in this day and age, you've just got to be relevant on many levels as as an academic too.

And so this is outreach.

It's it's educational because it's it's fun and uh and too is I mean, my background actually was in broad guess journalism, so it kind of locates that whole thing with history.

And I'm allowed now, So yeah.

Yeah, I mean you are.

And we wanted to talk to you about that.

I mean it's we had to mute his mic and number.

Of times we're in a stage and intervention later, Ken, I have a question for you, Kevin.

So if Patten watched the patent movie, what would he say about it?

Uh, he'd be pounding his chest because he's played out so well in it.

And then he'd say, yeah, that was all bs.

That's right.

We can't bleep out all the words.

He would say.

You know, one thing, one thing I came to discover in my research, like you know that the historian loves to point out little things you know, wrong with the with the movie and stuff like that.

And and I don't like that now because I helped make a movie and know what it's like to be on the other side of that.

But you know, throughout the movie, George C.

Scott is wearing an Eisenhower jacket with those gold buttons and everything.

He did not wear that until he got to England right before D Day.

Well, I guess with more it was it was, you know, February forty four.

Because I've looked back on all of his pictures of Sicily and North Africa, and he specifically talks about having a flashy uniform made when he got to England.

And so it's one of those things that everybody kind of has that picture in their head, but it's like, no, there's it's definitely you can if you look at a picture of him, you can tell whether he's in England or before England, you know, or the rest of the war.

So that's a nice little, you know, placeholder.

I like that.

That's good.

I know.

I think John has some questions.

I'll give you a softball to start out.

A name too.

D Day veterans who became iconic figures in the science fiction world.

Go ahead, John, science fiction world, I'm thinking.

Okay, So thinking science fiction is Ray Bradbury, Isaac asim Off.

No, no actors.

Yeah, Scotty from Star Jimmy Scotty.

All right.

William Shatner was Canadian.

Played the Doctor.

McCoy, not that I.

Think I think he would have said Star Trek if he's a into sci fi.

Yeah, so I think we're gonna go broad here.

I'm thinking of Oh no, Rod Serling was in the Pacific Theater.

Yeah, don't say anything.

John sci fi guy.

So I'm all right, So I'm trying to think of what you've heard of this guy?

Yeah, but if you heard of me, everybody, we've clouder.

All right, I can do this.

Anis so Scotty from the Enterprise and Obi Wan Kenoby both both.

Were That was a good one almost in that one.

I was in the in the British Navy, but I don't know many details.

I would have to look up.

I gotta be honest.

I thought Alec Guinness with that, you know sci fi before I thought D Day and just figured he was old enough.

But yeah, you get to the answer.

Is that your answer?

That's right?

Number of actors were where there?

Glenn Ford was on a ship.

And quite a few.

Yeah, he played a lot of navy characters, didn't he for.

Yo was on.

Was on a uh destroyer?

H Well, I think he ended up on like a.

L C t R or something, Ye, like a rocket rockets.

See.

But that's the fun of all of this.

It sends us off into all these directions.

Yeah, a question like this, Yeah, we really don't like the true or false questions.

We really do prefer the where.

We can make complete chumps and fools of ourselves.

In college, I always much preferred the essays to the multiple choice.

Yeah, let me write an essay and I can I can prove a point, you know, no matter what it is.

I was usually hung Overgo and just give me the.

Boy.

Some things haven't changed.

Keep the cavaliers away from him during the shooting.

Can be done with the softball questions.

Now he's a different one.

But it's not as well.

This is less trivia.

But maybe maybe some opinion or I don't know.

Were there actually Koreans on the Normandy coastline in German uniforms on D Day?

Or is that just a legend.

That is mythology.

I was going to say true.

But although they were, they looked Asian.

There's a very famous photograph Korean.

Yeah, yeah, I can't say.

I think you're thinking of Ukraine.

Well, no, there were guys from Siberia.

I was kidding.

Oh are you talking right now?

In Ukraine?

That's what I was implying.

But so where were those guys from this that photo from Omaha.

Beach, which which from Siberia Nigeria?

Okay, So, as far as I understand that, there's been a kind of mythology because of that really famous Korean movie.

It portrays a guy, you know, who's basically caught up in everything in World War two from I think nineteen thirty nine on word at like Culkin gall or whatever, and then ends up in Normandy.

I don't know that there's truth behind that, but I don't claim to be the ultimate expert.

Is this movie called Forrest Gump in Korea?

I'm not sure.

Well, it is kind of like that.

It's yeah, I don't know the title of it, but it is.

It is a little bit like that.

Life is like a box of kimchi.

Yeah, in that.

Case, you know what you're gonna get.

It's really gonna smell, especially.

In the summer.

Well yeah, I mean so, I think the movie is good in terms of pointing out how Koreans were caught up in World War Two and you know, really deeply affected by it.

But my sense is maybe it goes too far with trying to make it seem like this guy's right at the forefront in Normandy, and I don't know that that would have happened, but there were people of people from Asia who were there in Normandy because they had been you know, part of the Red Army and captured and use this way.

But really actually it's it's Georgians who play a much bigger role on D Day.

There's an entire Georgian battalion that's defending Utah Beach.

So the the fourth Division fights them, the the paratroopers fight them.

So obviously this isn't people from the state of Georgia.

There's people from what is today the country of Georgia.

So that's that's one example I gibe, but obviously those are not Asians.

Well, the story is in Ambrose's book D Day, and it seems to come from an oral history.

But as you know, sometimes some of these oral histories you kind of, you know, right to question mark in the in the margin of the book.

But I'm not one to bad mouth Steven Ambrose, being as I am a tour guide for Steven Ambrose historical tours.

But I did find with things like Band of Brothers that he would rely almost exclusively on oral histories and not try to either verify, back up or turn down a story by checking the National Archives records or anything like that.

And you know, I've interviewed lots of very honest veterans who you know, tell me they know that this river was right there, and then I'll do the research and I'll say, actually that one wasn't but it was this one, and they go, oh, I got it wrong.

You know, no malice, no no attempt to you know, just memory memories.

So you know it could be a case like that.

Well, on D Day and thereafter, there were a lot of rumors among the troops that that there were Japanese there fighting because they saw people from Asia.

Right, Oh, they must be Japanese and they're fighting in a German uniform or with the Germans or whatever.

So the oral history side is really tricky.

In that book D Day, there was a number of things in there that we're not verified.

A few land mines in there, let's put it that way.

Yeah, exactly, all right, I'm gonna go back to the movie Patent for a second.

Yeah, answered John, Well, you don't know anything about Patent.

What famous actor was not offered the role to play Patent in the movie was not offered the role, but one person who's very famous who wanted desperately to play Patent.

All right, it would have made nineteen sixties, early nineteen seventies, all right, I'm gonna go on a limb say that this actor, uh smoked cigarettes and drank alcohol.

That was only what ninety nine point nine percent?

An he wore bell bottom pants.

That's the seventh and it's a guy, all right.

There was somebody who I remember like was going around Hollywood wanting to play the role.

Alright, let me think it wasn't Harry Morgan.

God, there's like part of me wants to say Clint Eastwood, but that can't be right.

He was too young.

I think I'm thinking of dirty Harry because that was gonna be played by like Frank Sinatra originally, all right, not Telly Savalis.

All right, this is gonna sound stupid.

I think I'm thinking of a differently.

I want to say John Cassa Eddies, but that's my last.

Ye, that's John part right.

Actually, John Wayne expressed interest in wanting to play Patton, but he.

Was not to make any sense a white savior.

But Robert Mitchum and Burt Lane cast are turned down the roll, and so did Kirk Douglas.

So yeah, interesting.

Now, April, we do have one rule.

You got to ask me a question without looking at the computer.

I can't want to make sure as you swim through I MBS trivia already questions April that you've been wondering about a month.

All right, then here's one.

If you could turn back time and interview one figure from World War Two, who would it be and what would you ask them?

I'd say, Adolph, do you really want to do?

No?

Go ahead, John, you answer first.

I have to narrow it down to one.

Gosh, I guess I'm gonna say, uh, Matt Ridgley, because I'm doing a biography of hopefully interview the guy, and I would I would ask him about this, a little bit of about his personal life that they didn't necessarily want to broadcast about.

I would ask him a little bit about what happened with his first two marriages, and I would get salacious.

I guess a little bit.

On the personal side.

I think there's so much that I know about him because I'm writing a biography of them, So there's so much I know about what happens to him professionally in combat and his ideas and his influence, and certainly on the personal side, in all the people who knows in the army and friendships he has, and certainly his incredible relationship with his third wife, who is truly his solemate.

But I would have been a little interested to delve into that earlier part of his life.

Just so that's just where I am right now.

And then obviously I would want to interview Patten the same thing, the salacious stories, because in my research as of recent Doris Duke, who was a tobacco heiress and a very kind of famous social lighte cross paths with Patten just as the war ended.

In fact, the day that he goes to meet the Soviet general to celebrate their great victory, he meets with two generals.

It's the second one that he says that they bring out a troop of dancers, which I guess is kind of portrayed in the movie.

And there's and he has photographs because he says that Doris Duke, you know, kind of broke into the party and that the Soviet general gave her an award for representing womanhood or American womanhood.

And so, you know, whenever it come across these things in the photo albums or his diaries, I'll go see if there's an archive where the pres papers are, I'll contact the archive.

Hey, you know, do you have anything letters or diaries to back up this date you know of them meeting.

And so there was a book I tried to getting from the Library of Congress.

They didn't have it on Doris Duke.

So I got it, and there's a whole paragraph for her and Paton going up into his trailer and hooking up in Lynn's Austria.

And I'm like, what does Gene Gordon know about this Patton's mistress?

And so what I found was the they said, and they said, like and one of Doris Duke's staff helped write this book, and that's what makes it legit.

The guy was her chef, and so I don't really know his background with primary resources.

But there were no primary there were no resources listed at all in the back of the book.

I did find another biography that said that there was all these wild speculations about her sexuality and that, and then they kind of list a few and patents in there.

Uh so I'm pretty much finding that I'm pretty confident that one isn't true because Patten's headquarters was in place called Reagansburg, Germany, not Lynce, Austria.

So like all the little elements of the story are untrue, but I would predict that April.

You're listening very closely as I tell all this.

The scandals.

The answer is John and I would want to interview whoever writing a book about at the time.

Yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense.

We want to.

Here's a little longer question.

But I'm curious your perspective because it's something I've wondered for a number of years.

On D Day, it was obviously much to the Allied advantage to make the Germans think that the Normandy landings were just a diversion.

The real invasion is coming elsewhere.

Some of the German commanders seem inclined to, you know, accept that, And yet tens of thousands of Allied personnel landed with a copy of Eisenhower's Order of the Day in their pockets, and it proclaimed very clearly this is the great crusade toward which we are driven these many months.

So then many of those men would have been killed or captured.

And it stands to reason that, you know, at least some copies of the Order of the Day would have fallen into German hands.

Have you ever seen any German reaction to this?

It seems like someone would have said, this is not a diversion, this is it.

Well, you know, that mainly makes me think of preparing the battlefield.

And I think with what's called Operation Fortitude, and this is the the subterfuge plan to really convince the Germans that the invasion's coming in Patacla under patent the best American general.

I mean, that's broadcasting and that you know, we might do a diversion somewhere else.

And as soon as those in the invasion hits Normandy, all the spies are going, hey, don't fall for this.

You know, it's it's really a ruse.

They're coming into Cala.

So that letter from Eisenhower would just be part of the route.

Oh look, they're trying to you're so ingrained in this, you know, belief that when the facts are presented to you, you can't even see straight.

I've seen lots of examples of that in history that a lot of them I don't want to cite, but that, yeah, you really they've they've really conditioned the mindset of people the same way the Germans did it going into Poland.

You know, in in the German state controlled newspapers there's stories about Polish bombers coming over and bombing German little villages and things like that.

Nothing like that was going on, but they so conditioned the German military and civilians that we have to go into Poland to stop all this aggression.

I think something like that on a smaller scale is going on in the Normandy cala A region.

John, what are your thoughts.

Yeah, I mean I've never come across anything specific or a German capture is the order of the day and is setting that up the line and saying, hey, you know, you need to consider that.

Really this is the main effort.

To my knowledge, we don't have that or or it's lost to history.

Yes, but I do think that once fortitude has taken hold, they're probably is a mindset among all too many Germans that there might be another invasion somewhere, and actually there is, it's just we tend to overlook it.

It's I am villed dragoon in South France, you know, but it's not quite what the Germans have been thinking and taking two invasions along the northern coast someplace.

So yeah, I mean they're already kind of that mindset.

So if you if you do in kind of the order of the day, You're probably gonna think it's a head fake.

But I'd also say fortitude.

I won't use the word overrated, but perhaps what's overlooked is the aerial side to this, that that, as much as anything, is preventing a lot of German reinforcements from getting into Normandy, the the Allied air in addiction that is just shooting up, you know, German columns and German reinforcements that are coming near.

And I think that, more so than Fortitude, probably holds a lot of fifteenth Army in place in Calais.

In addition to the Hitler's desire to hang on to the harbors, I mean, we all talk about how looney Hitler was, and that's as of course he was.

He's like, he's like the best thing we have going for us in terms of all the terrible, stupid, dumb things that he does.

They're putting a really competent guy.

We'd be in trouble, we would have, Yeah, But I do think one thing he has right is to hang on to those those port cities and then to destroy the courts when when you can, because obviously that's going to impact us, you know, in our logistics.

So Yeah, that's it's a really intriguing thing, John.

I mean, the order of the day really should have given it away, right.

Yeah, you know, but that that reminds me during the Battle of the Bulge, there's that famous meeting on December nineteenth and for Done with pat and Eisenhower, Bradley, Jacob Devers.

And during that meeting, the big concern is is this the real attack or are the is this part of a pincer movement that's gonna come in later.

So whenever there's attack, nobody ever sees it as a straightforward attack.

Even the Allies in the Battle of the Bulge are thinking is this just a precursor?

Is this a distraction?

And that's war.

You just don't know, and you've got to consider all options.

So yeah, that I can see why they would think that.

I mean they thought that in Normandy, we thought that during the Battle of the Bulge.

Yeah, And as it turns out, though, it's feckless compared to what they do, and they are den There was another attack.

It caught Operation nord Wind, which happens in Alsis so January, yeah, January first, So I guess technically there was one, just not you know, not what they may have been thinking about it.

We're done on December nineteenth in terms of what they might have expected.

Yeah, just a little poof a little Unfortunately Audie Murphy was there to push.

It back well, those who had to ward it off in the forty second divisions on and so forth.

I mean it was pretty violent fighting for those right at the front line.

In the bigger picture, it's not going to alter there's a cheapic balance at all, and it's it's pretty pretty unsuccessful.

I think it's like what two cores of the German Army.

I mean, it's not anything in comparison to.

They have three field armies in they are den Yeah.

Yeah, I have a question for you too.

So you both have given battlefield tours, and obviously anytime you go to someplace like Normandy for the first time, you know, you're completely in.

Awe and overwhelming away, right, Yeah.

But are there other places very specific that you have traveled to and you know, in places you've written about or you know, studied a lot and then you went there and you were just, you know, again, just overwhelmed aside from the big you know, Normandy obvious.

I think I think we all are, but you know, very specific places that just really were different than what you may be anticipated.

So the big one for me is Mayen, and this is a battle fought by the ninetieth Infantry Division to capture a bridge in the town of Mayen over the Mayenne River.

And if Paton can take it, he's going to be able to start to encircle the German army from the south of file at Pocket, you know.

And I had never heard about this.

I came across in a ninetieth Infantry book and it was a series of letters between two soldiers writing in like nineteen forty six or seven, and so I started piecing the story together.

I went to the archives, pulled records, found some oral histories, you know, really, and it's a fascinating story, the way these guys charged this bridge and the whole attack breaks down.

One tanker goes across and nobody's supporting him, and one lieutenant actually only he's only armed with a German pistol, charging across the bridge.

And there's even now a memorial to one of the engineers.

Mcgracken was his name.

Anyways, I do all of this research, I map it out.

I'm like I'm gonna do this on my next tour, and I'm even Google mapping it.

So I'm like on the road driving to the bridge, you know, And the night before I had this nightmare that the bus ran into quicksand on the way to the river and all of my tourists are stuck, and I mean I woke into like a panic, and sure enough we drive down.

It was perfect.

We pulled on the side of the road, everybody got off.

I told the story on one side of the bridge, we crossed street to the other and they're like, this is the most amazing story.

We didn't know anything about it, and I was like, thank God.

I'm almost like, yeah, me neither.

I've never been here before on the tour, so that that's a big one for me.

And then the small one that I just kind of enjoy is on the Band of Brothers tour, taking people to the crossroads where Dick Winners kind of leads his last charge and we actually ask our tourists like, hey, we're going to run it if you want to run it with us, and so we run that.

What about you, John, Yeah, I would have to say the best Owed Corridor.

I did a book called Alimoni or Den.

And there's a number of places, of course in the best Owed Corridor, all these little towns where the twenty eighth Division fought some of it, you know, more or less to extinction, to buy time for others to get in place, to get the best dowe and whatnot.

But I think especially a little town called Novel, which is about you know, a mile a mile and a half north of the best oone something like that, and it is really one of the key nexus points for the second Panzer Division.

And there's just one heck of a battle fought there with elements of the tenth Armored Division and hundred first Airborne Division.

And I had written about that pretty extensively, even even published an article about it.

And I think you know, when you when you visit that little town, you can see immediately why it's important and why this all happened.

You can see well enough to see that the ground overlooking it is kind of high ground, and the towns and the low ground and the challenges that would have presented.

You can see the fog in the morning, which is the same thing they experienced too.

We just went there this past year and during an eightieth anniversary of the Battle of the Bulge tour, and it was it was sort of like with Kevin just mentioning going to may n you know, for the first time.

Now, I've been in Noville a number of times, but I hadn't been with sextual people, you know, on a tour and describing it for them, and you could kind of see the light bulb go off of understanding the sort of significance of this in relation to the rest of the Bulge battle we were talking about.

It was pretty neat.

Did you take him over to the memorial to the civilians that were killed?

I used to jump up on that wall and stand up there and give the talk.

Amore, We're a little less adroit.

So I love Noville.

Also, like John, I wrote an article about it because I was leading a tour there.

And that's how whenever I'm leading a tour to a location, I'll probably write an article so that I know it.

And I was very fortunate in my research.

I actually found a video task force John's Escaping Me.

What was the name of the task force?

Then, Sobrie.

I found an interview Decibree is there talking to a group explaining his decisions during the battle, and it was fascinating because when the the first battalion of the five h six starts coming up the road, he sends a jeep back to get the commander uh to discuss what they're going to do, and he realizes this isn't good enough.

They send another jeep back to pick up all the company commanders and they explained everything to them so that when they come into the town they just break into a run and go straight to the front and spread out, and all the tankers are really impressed that these airborne guys are so tactically, you know, adroit at what they're doing.

They know exactly where to go, what to do, how to set up.

And on the flip side, the one hundred and first guys are fascinated with these tankers that are just firing at the German tanks and constantly moving so the Germans can't get a beat on them.

And they said there were these two tanks that the way they were maneuvering and firing, the Germans must have thought there were like ten tanks there.

So there were more tanks than they were, you know, they were about a dozen and a half, but it was there's tank Destroyers too, and it's total shooting scoot as so much as you can because they're a Niro town and the fog and all that, it's really fascinating place.

Deciper is a really interesting guy too.

He retired as a three star general.

He was badly wounded in this fight, by the way, lost part of his face.

And yeah, yeah, it's really so anyway, we could go on forever, I know, sadly or maybe happily enough everybody listening, we're pretty much time.

But which reminds me of a story.

John, Let's go to a big story.

But just real quick, I do want to mention about the show.

Was really nice about it.

John and I put our money together.

We got a really nice studio at the base of the Hollywood sign out in l A.

And so we just go there and we have a buddy that brings us Champagne and Caviare.

We just really just talked that way and we're going to start flying guessing from Europe.

I think after a couple more episodes as everywhere.

I'm pretty impressed the show is already that popular.

That's even and the sponsorships have been amazing.

Steven Anders tell you this, John, they just called and they've uh, they said they're going to give us for ads one Midian.

All right, well, I think Powers is on board too.

You got to put the thinking of the mouth though when you.

Say, I don't know if we want him as a sponsor.

Now, to tell everybody how you found your podcast again.

John, It is called World War two Live and layer on all the you know the audio platforms, also on YouTube and easy email us questions for Stump the Chump.

It's a World War two Live at gmail dot com.

World War two Live at gmail dot com.

And that's with a numeral too, And.

Of course they have to listen to someone talked as well at the same time.

That's right, yes, right, I mean we might even have Kevin back on this show too.

If you want the ratings to spike.

Yes, yes, up, down.

It's all good.

And I think we do have a we Salute you.

Don't we We do today on our we Salute You segment, we honor the service of Corporal Kenneth A.

Vat of Texas, a brave paratrooper whose tragic end as a reminder that, even before the battle is joined, service in the military is always risky.

Proposition Kenneth Vott, who went by the nickname Bill, was born in Olney, Texas, in October of nineteen twenty two, to a farming family.

After finishing high school, Bill enlisted in the US Army in August of nineteen forty, finishing basic training, and then volunteered for jump school to become a paratrooper.

In July nineteen forty two, with the war on and the new American airborne units getting organized, the five fifth Parachute Infantry Regiment was activated and Vought was assigned to its ranks.

The regiment became part of the eighty second Airborne Division, soon to be a unit of Destiny.

In April nineteen forty three, the five oh fifth moved to North Africa to train and prepare for what eventually became Operation Husky, the Allied invasion of Sicily.

The five of fifth, known as the Panthers, jumped on July ninth at Jayla, fighting hard and suffering many casualties.

Then in September, the Panthers were called to jump into Italy to reinforce the tenuous American beachait around Salerno.

A couple of weeks later, the five of fifth was part of the liberation of Naples, the first major European city taken by the Allies.

Although this would be an impressive war record for any unit by itself, there was much more to come.

In autumn of nineteen forty three, the five of fifth was relocated to Northern Ireland to begin rebuilding and retraining for the biggest operation of the war, the Cross Channel invasion.

Airborne assaults behind the two flanking beaches.

We become a vital part of that plan.

The five fifth was ready, but for Kenneth Vought it was not to be.

On the evening of June fifth, his mortar platoon of the first Battalion HQ Company loaded onto their C forty seven on the tarmac of Spano Airfield near Uppingham, England.

Suddenly there was an explosion.

Exactly what happened will never be fully known, but likely someone accidentally armed a grenade on the plane, or one malfunctioned and exploded.

That explosion immediately led to other nearby explosives igniting on a nearby plane.

Paratrooper Arthur dutch Schultz later became to become famous in the movie and the book The Longest Day, recalled hearing the blast and wondering what had happened.

What had happened was bad.

In seconds, almost everyone on that Sea forty seven was wounded, and three men, including Kenneth Vaught, was dead.

The invasion would go on, but the five fifth, in a flash, lost a stick of paratroopers and a Sea forty seven along with Vaught.

Troopers Robert Leakey and Pete Vaugh were instantly killed.

Eddie Mihlberg would succumb to his injuries the next morning, on the sixth.

We at the National D Day Memorial are continually on honoring the Allied forces who died on D Day, but we can never forget that men died before and after that important date.

Even before the first paratroopers hit the silk or the first infantrymen hit the beach, there were victims of the invasion.

Bill Vaught and his brothers in arms were only a few.

Kenneth Vought lies in the Cambridge American Cemetery in England.

He was survived by his parents and by two brothers, both of whom were also serving in the military.

Corporal Kenneth Vaught, we salute you, thank you for your service, and thank you for doing your part to save the world.

Yeah, it was a terrible tragedy what happened there.

I mean, I mean it's I.

Think it what to say sometimes forget just how many accidents, training accidents, and just how many were killed.

I mean, it's a large percentage of those serving who died before they ever even made it to the yeah, front line, so something to w Yeah.

Obviously, men who died on June sixth, the nineteen forty four, you know, deserve a great deal of honor.

But Bened hundred and fifth, I think of the crew of the Ausprea mind sweeper that been down on the fifth.

Yeah, and in some ways, and that was earlier in the day.

They may be considered the first casualties of the invasion, but there were and and maybe more that I haven't run across other stories of men who you know, never got out of England.

It could be yeah, yeah, I mean it points to the cost of this whole thing.

And you're just as dead if you're killed on an accident of June fifth, forming them all beach or something.

And yeah, it's really a sobering kind of thing in the five fifth, by the way, incredible unit, very high speed unit then and now, and did it had an incredible record of World War Two, and I have to admit to a little partiality to it.

It's one of my very best World War two veteran friends was in the five oh fifth, and man, that unitught so much combat.

They were such a go to outsit.

It wasn't the first parachute inmetry regiment created.

That.

I don't know for sure.

It could be.

I honestly, I'm pretty.

Sure it was.

And when they created the eighty second Airborne, the guys in the five oh fifth would say, oh, we're glad that the eighty second Airborne has joined the five oh fifth.

Well that's yeah.

It's funny because when Ridgeway gave a talk to these guys and went, and also when when Bob Hope visited, they both alluded to the fact, yeah, you're in the eighty second Airborne.

Vision they were like, no, five fifth, five oh fifth.

They weren't thinking of themselves as part of the division yet that was like in North Africa earlier.

That's a unit pride right there.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Well, Kevin, thanks for joining us to talk about our World War two live podcasts.

And thank you both.

Thank you for keeping history alive and fun and interesting and bringing it to so many people.

We appreciate all you do.

I don't know if we'd be able to do this if you guys hadn't started this show.

Well oh yeah, well we'll take a little credit.

But you stand on the shoulders of giants.

What can we say?

That's right.

I will not deny that.

It absolutely you.

Yeah.

Thanks.

You can email our team at podcasts at dday dot org.

Again, that's podcast at dday dot org.

If you're enjoying our discussions on World War Two and it's lasting impact, please subscribe to this podcast, share it with your friends, rate it, leave us a review, help us share the lessons and legacy use a D Day in World War Two.

Thanks for going to start, Buddy to take care.

Someone Talked is a production of the National D Day Memorial Foundation, recorded at Media Squatch in Bedford, Virginia.

The views expressed are not necessarily those of the Foundation, media Squatch or program sponsors.

Promotional consideration for Someone Talked is provided by Framatome, an international leader in nuclear energy.

Learn more at framatome dot This program was supported by a grant from Virginia Humanities, headquartered at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville.

The State Humanities Council connects people and ideas to explore the human experience and inspire cultural engagement.

Connect online at Virginia Humanities dot org.

Located in Bedford, Virginia, the community that suffered the highest known D Day loss per capita in the United States, Congress warranted the establishment of the Nations Monument to Dday in this emblematic American home front.

Receiving no federal or state funding, the memorial is operated and maintained by a private foundation and donor support.

Explore the National D Day Memorial, plan your visit and learn more about upcoming events at dday dot org.

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