Welcome back to Generals and Napoleon once again joining us from London, the great Jonathan N How are you, Sir?

John, I'm very well.

Thank you.

A bit warm, but it's nice.

Nice to see you.

Yeah, nice to see you as well.

For those of you who don't know Jonathan, a tremendous author, Lot of really interesting books too.

I've read The Death of Joaquim Yura and Killing Napoleon.

You have a number of other books on this era, correct Jonathan?

I do.

I've been writing for some time, John, so I think I've got about 12 or 13, something like that.

If you want me to pick a favorite, I would say it's the death of Joaquin Mura.

I really enjoyed doing the research for that.

Very interesting.

And because he was a kind of flamboyant cavalry general and we're looking at, I don't know if he's flamboyant, but he's a cavalry general, We're looking at Sebastiani today, so it's kind of relevant.

I think flamboyant comes in the job description of a cavalry general, so I.

Think you're right?

Yeah, Nevasciani, what a career this guy had.

And hopefully we can get this coward in in 40 to 45 minutes because it's a lot.

By all accounts, he was a very average general.

His troops even nicknamed him, quote, General Surprise.

End Quote.

Because he was often taken by surprise in battle and failed to do proper reconnaissance, but he was also a diplomat and was eventually made in Marshall of France.

And lastly, the murder of his daughter may have touched off the 1848 revolution that brought Napoleon the 3rd to power.

What is your opinion of Sebastiani?

So Sebastiani, I think I was first drawn to Sebastiani just because he's got a great name.

It's got a very martial, military, heroic sounding surname.

And then I found out his first name is Horace, which sounds the opposite.

It doesn't sound very military at all.

So I think it'd be better if he's called Horatio or something like that, and that would go better.

But yeah, he is a political operator, like you say.

He had a very long career, and he's one of those people that seems capable, a real survivor, capable of moving from one regime to another, always keeping his job, always doing well, always getting a salary.

Not bad as a general, though, like you mentioned, to be called General Surprise.

I mean, that could go either way.

General surprise surprises people, but not in this case.

He was a bit slack when it came to some of the the detailed work of of leading cavalry leading troops.

So we'd have to question his competence, even though he spent much of his military career in charge of a corps.

Nevertheless, I think he probably was more suited to managing A regiment or or at most a brigade, and so I kind of see him more as a political person than as a as a as a military genius.

That's what I think too.

I think.

I think he had some value as an administrator.

I mean, I find it odd that a cavalry general didn't like to do reconnaissance.

So that part is.

Strange.

But I think Napoleon, well #1 the guy was loyal.

So Napoleon kept employing him for that reason.

But I think he had other talents, just maybe not as a general.

Horace Sebastiani was born in 1771 and like Napoleon, was born in Corsica.

What do we know of his upbringing?

So, yeah, he was a Corsican.

He was a son of an artisan.

I think he was son of a quite successful tailor.

But they they had money and so he had an education.

He was quite cultivated, actually.

I think if you read his his reports, he had quite a grandiose style of writing.

And you can see that in his later writings.

But yeah, it's a, it's modest beginnings, not unusual for a, a general of this period in the French army.

And interestingly, he had a younger brother who had a really strange name called Tiburce.

TIBURCE Thay Bercher Sebastiani, who was also a Colonel in the French dragoons.

Later on, no one's ever heard of him, but I think he serves in Russia in 1812 and he had a career of his own.

So quite military family in the end, but with modest beginnings.

Yeah, and he originally selects a career in religious studies, but gets caught up in the excitement of the French Revolution and joins the Army in 1792.

How did his early career go?

Yeah.

So it's again another case of someone destined for the church.

I think Mirai also was destined for the church, and the revolution interrupts that.

And of course, a career in the church is open to people of more humble birth.

The army officers mostly were aristocrats.

The naval officers mostly were aristocrats before the revolution.

So the revolution kind of saves these people, gives them a new opening, new opportunities.

And he's one of the Corsicans who becomes an enthusiast for the revolution.

Not all Corsicans were enthusiastic for the revolution.

There was a very royalist strand.

There were even those who sided with the British.

But Sibberstown is one of those that serves as a volunteer, soon makes it to the rank of officer.

And when the British occupied Corsica, I think in 1793 and make it a Kingdom, he, he evacuates and goes to France and he serves in the armies in the Alps and in Italy and he does well, he's already a captain in the dragoons by 1795.

Yeah, in 1796 he's fighting under Napoleon in Italy at the battles of Dago and Arcola.

And is he rapidly promoted up the ranks?

He is.

I mean, he's one of those officers that is almost in the shadow of Napoleon following him around.

So he's with Napoleon in Paris when the whiff of grape shot is used against the Paris mob.

He's there with the cavalry.

And it, it kind of makes him that trusted subordinate again, like Murat.

And then in the invasion of Italy, again, Miraz is involved in that.

Sebastiani is involved in that.

He, he does very well at Arcola under the eyes of Napoleon.

And so he's made a squadron commander.

He's a little bit higher than a captain.

And still with the dragoons, he's was serving, I think with the 9th Dragoons.

And these are hard, experienced fighting veterans by then.

They've been through what, three years, four years of war.

And so it's a pretty, it's a pretty demanding job.

It's not something that you can do without skill.

Yeah, in 1799, Colonel Sebastiani is part of Lucian Bonaparte's entourage, Napoleon's younger brother.

And assist Napoleon's coup for power that year, correct?

Yeah.

So again, we see him in that role of trusted support in a Corsican, a kind of mini mirror, always, always sort of there, ready and available.

And his dragoons are part of the Garrison of Paris.

So when Napoleon has the coup, the Garrison parish keeps the city quiet and, and peaceful.

And that transition is, is helped by that.

So that's a, a really good thing to be involved with for your career.

And then he goes off again to Italy to, to be at Marengo again with Napoleon, also good for your career.

And he stays in, but he stays in Italy when Napoleon goes to Egypt.

So he will go to the Middle East a bit later, but he's he's given various assignments here in Italy to sort of make it clear to the Italians that the French are sort of here to stay.

Right.

Well, in 1802, Napoleon sent him on his first diplomatic mission to the Ottoman Empire.

How does he do?

How does he perform in this role, which is different from being a general?

Yeah, well, this is a really difficult role, and it's somehow quite difficult to see what a Colonel of dragoons is doing.

But Napoleon had obviously left Egypt and the French had been kicked out of Egypt in 1801.

And so Sebastian is going there really to try and smooth feathers a little bit, to try and organise the release of any prisoners that have been leftover, just to really make it clear that French intentions from now on are are positive and and beneficial.

And Sebastiani finds that the leading power in Egypt is now the British.

So they're the dominant force in Egypt.

It's nominally a Turkish province, but Britain has kind of, because of the French invasion of Egypt, Britain has kind of got the foot in the door.

So it's a very difficult position for someone with no real diplomatic experience.

Although in Italy he'd been doing this kind of political work a little bit.

It's still a challenging job.

Yeah, I would.

Say so.

I mean, we I mean, that's just a few year, a year after, you know, the French leave Egypt, which they was part of Ottomans empire and they conquered it.

So it must have been an awkward walking into that capital saying, hey, sorry about that.

Let's be friends again.

Yeah, I think there probably was some awkward silences, but we don't, they don't get written down, so we don't know well.

Sebastiani returns to France in 1803 and has made a Brigadier General and command troops at the Battle of Ulm against the Austrians.

He also fights again at the Battle of Austulates where he is wounded.

So like you said, he he is kind of a mini Muran, you know, like a like a Bessier or a LaSalle or some of these others.

You know, he was a brave guy.

Yeah, I think so.

I think that's, you know, to come back from this diplomatic mission and then to go back to your regiment, train them on the Channel Coast and then to lead them into Germany and Austria.

He's one of the first units to enter Vienna in 1805.

He's wounded at Astolitz.

He gets shot through the body.

So he's obviously up there at the front leading his man, charging around.

But being at Astolitz, that's a very positive outcome.

And to be wounded there, that kind of makes you something of a hero again.

You're you're serving under Napoleon within the site of Napoleon and and you get noticed.

Yeah, he definitely gets noticed.

He gets promoted again to general division and is again sent to Constantinople as ambassador and help the Ottomans help convince the Ottomans to declare war on Russia.

Does he also play a part in organizing the defenses that a British Navy attack in eighteen O 7?

Yeah, it's one of the more obscure episodes of the Napoleonic Wars.

But like I say, Sebastiani has done well.

It's very quickly after Ausdolitz that he gets sent on this new mission to to see the Ottomans in Constantinople.

And really he's being sent there to try and play the great powers off against themselves a little bit.

So the British and the Russians are influential in the eastern Mediterranean, and Sebastiani's arrival is to try and provoke some tension and rivalry between those two.

And of course, Russia actually makes peace with France in 1807, a little bit later.

But in 1806, there's still an opportunity to make mischief in Constantinople by befriending the Turks and and whispering things into their ear about how the British are are cheating you and how the Russians really want to take over bits of your land.

So it upsets the British to the extent that they fall out with the Turkish Sultan and they try some gunboat diplomacy.

So they bring a fleet up, the Dardanelle and the British, not a great example of restraint, British bombard the coast, but the the Turks with Sebastiani's help, organise resistance and fight back and beat off the British and they make a hasty retreat.

So it's a very successful almost, it's not quite diplomatic, but it is a diplomatic military success for Sebastiani and it shows perhaps some of his versatility that we don't always see later on in his life.

I feel like his star is kind of rising at this point.

Yes, I think so, although it's marred a little bit in 1807 because his wife, she dies in childbirth in April 1807.

So a daughter is born to them, but his wife dies.

And there's an interesting side to his wife.

His wife comes from old French aristocracy.

And his wife's father is somebody called Franquodot de Coigne and he was a general in Portuguese service.

So he emigrated during the revolution and went and got service in the Portuguese army.

Sebastiani's father-in-law, very much an old school ball born royalist.

There's that element in the family that what we'll see in 18141815 starts to to dominate a little, a little bit.

Yeah, we'll come.

Come back to his personal life here in a little bit, yeah.

He's made.

Count of the Empire and is sent to Spain where he fights Atalavera, Mon Acid and Ocana and is successful in taking several Spanish cities.

But like many of the marshals in Spain, his performance tends to sag after a while.

Why do you think he suffered setbacks there?

Yes.

I mean, I generally see Spain, as I'm sure you do, as a kind of graveyard for the careers of French generals and French marshals.

So it's a really difficult theatre, even though Sebastiani does, he does quite well.

I mean, he in early 1809, he takes over 4 4th core, the 4th core in the South of Spain and he he does really OK.

Like you say, he's a Talavera, which is a difficult battle.

The allies have got a very strong position, Almanacid and Lacagna, they have great successes against Spanish armies, but they're they're really, the French cavalry really do destroy the opposition in those battles.

So it's it's not that he's being brilliant.

In fact he's he's quite wasteful with his cowboy.

He doesn't do reconnaissance particularly well.

He doesn't really look after them particularly well.

And he's got no real strategic brilliance.

But you know, apart from Suchet in Eastern Spain, no one is doing really, really well, right?

Well, Napoleon also grows wary of Sebastiani, who fails to report all of the casualties and over exaggerates the scale of his victories.

Was he a plunder as well, like Marshall Soltmessena?

I've seen conflicting reports, yeah.

Again, like I said about the graveyard for Koreas, it's also a graveyard for reputations.

So I think it's interesting about Sebastiani and his reports from Spain.

Like most of the generals, he's either hiding setbacks.

I think there was some huge scandal about the number of guns lost at Talavera, which wasn't really Sebastiani, it was some other generals and they didn't report the truth to Napoleon.

Napoleon found out later, it was livid.

So there's a lot of lying going on.

But Sebastiani, he's doing OK because he's in the South, he's in Andalusia, he's in Granada.

These are quite rich provinces.

The problem was, I think, in terms of Napoleon's point of view, he was getting a bit ambitious.

Joseph Bonaparte, King of Spain, had had make it made him Duke of Mercier as a reward.

Napoleon really didn't like that kind of thing.

It was Napoleon that gives rewards and punishments.

It's not Joseph Bonaparte, so he does get called back from Spain in 1811.

In terms of the plundering, I don't think he needed to.

He's from quite a wealthy family, as I, as I mentioned, he's old school aristocracy, but I don't really get the sense that he was sacking and pillaging.

He would sack a town to make an example.

And I think the French were doing that a lot in Spain because they didn't really know how to deal, deal with the insurgency, with the guerrillas.

So they loved to make an example of a place that didn't surrender.

But I don't think he was amassing a fortune personally.

Yeah, well, despite his liabilities, Estiani serves under Napoleon again.

During the 1812 invasion of Russia, he fought A Bordino as one of the first French troops to enter Moscow.

But during the retreat, his troops were beaten and his reputation suffers more damage.

In my mind, he kind of reminds me of, as you know, not overly talented but extremely loyal to Napoleon.

Does this kind of explain his continued appointments as commander?

I think it's a really good point.

So, yeah, in terms of Russia 1812, for the invasion, he's given a a division of light cavalry.

So that's in the saddle the whole time in the in the vanguard pushing into this sort of landscape of planes and fields.

But even in this endless landscape of planes and fields, he manages to get ambushed by Cossacks at Inkova, where General Platov gives him a bloody nose.

He gets his chance just after Borodino, because General Monbrant is killed at Borodino and quite a lot of cavalry generals do get quite a lot of generals get killed at Borodino.

It's surprising how many get killed or wounded there.

A horrendous battle.

Sebastian is given control, given command of a cavalry corps at that point, which she takes to Moscow.

But in October 1812, along with our friend Mira, these cavalry detachments are badly surprised by Katusov and there's an ambush and they, they, they run off and losses are horrendous.

One of the reasons the French decide to call it a day and and retreat because of this terrible episode, which Sebastiani has to bear some responsibility for in terms of Juno, I think you're you're right because Juno aid the comp to Napoleon young ambitious and gets to a certain point, but then doesn't excel after that.

And I think that's that's probably where we are with Sebastiani, although I can see there's an argument to say he's a bit like other cavalry generals of division like Nansuchi, Monbruan, Kolanko, that kind of level, but not Marshall material.

And I think even Napoleon could see that that's true.

Yeah, Napoleon.

Wasn't in the habit of promoting fools or people who couldn't do their job well.

Sebastiani serves again in 18131814, suffers more battle wounds, but Napoleon advocates in April 1814 does Sebastiani submit to the returning borban Royals since an.

Interesting question.

So in the wake of 1812, I'm sure that his his confidence and his, well, physically, a lot of these people are broken.

But in terms of, you know, confidence, in terms of where they see the future, the invasion of Russia is a watershed moment in early 1813.

Zastiani's in Germany with what's left of his cavalry, which is not really many.

And everyone's really starting to think, what are we?

What are we fighting for?

What are we doing?

Are they giving it one more campaign?

Sebastiani makes it through the German campaign in June 13 to Leipzig, where he's wounded by a Land's thrust which can't really help his sense of of ambition or loyalty.

So it's a really, really hard time and of course he hasn't made it to to Marshall.

So there's a lingering resentment, I think probably there.

And he has a very hectic 1814 campaign in France again, leading cavalry racing round from one battlefield to another.

And but it when Napoleon does abdicate, Sebastian keeps a very low profile.

So he doesn't really do anything and he's not asked to do anything.

But he sort of stays at home, which is I think shows, again, some political sense that we'll see later in his career that he's able to navigate this change of regime quite, quite cleverly, yeah.

Well, you mentioned, I think at the beginning he's kind of a survivor.

He knows how to play the the ebb and tides of of everything.

OK.

In 1815, Sebastiani flocks to Napoleon during his return from Elba.

Where does he serve Napoleon?

It's not at Waterloo, no.

And it's really at this point that Sebastiani makes that transition into politics.

So when Napoleon returns for Melba, he becomes an elected representative and he goes into, I think it's the house, kind of the House of Lords.

But after Waterloo, he he puts the uniform back on to help defend Paris in late June 1815.

And then he's sent to negotiate a ceasefire with the allies, the advancing allies.

And he's part of the delegation, but he is also communicating with the allies as well.

So he's opened a line of communication to Metonych, the famous Austrian diplomat.

And so he's already talking about change of regime there.

So again, we get this sense that he's he, he knows that his politics, he knows which way the wind's blowing.

And he's suggesting that Louis the 18th should be returned to the French throne in a second restoration.

So there's some real politicking going on there.

And Sebastiani's, whether it's his diplomatic skill or, you know, his family, the family influence on him or he's just tired of war, we don't really know with these generals and marshals at this point.

And but it's the start of a great political career.

Yeah.

Let's talk about that.

He those a year are in exile in England but returns to France and begins his political career.

How is he as a politician?

Yes.

So he's back in France in 1818.

This is obviously a very royalist period, but the worst of the sort of royalist reaction against Napoleon's allies is over by 1818 and becomes elected deputy for Corsica.

So he's representing his home island.

It's a lot of Wheeling and dealing and he manages to end up when the regime changes again in 1830, there's a revolution, the regime changes again, he manages to end up as minister for the Navy.

That's really the measure of him.

He's got no experience of ships or tailing.

He's probably been on a ship twice.

But there he is, seemingly loyal, seemingly competent, always ready to lend a hand.

And then from that point on, he's either a minister or an ambassador.

So he's he's doing very well.

Well.

This next part's interesting.

His later years.

He's made a Marshall in 1840, finally, so that's probably gratification.

But then his daughter is murdered and somehow is said to have touched off the 1848 revolution that brought Napoleon the 3rd to power.

Without going too deep into it, what happened here?

So yeah, he's.

Made a a Marshall of France in 1840s, so that's better late than never, but it's hardly a reward for his military career.

It's more because he was an ambassador, which means that the term you know, the title Marshall of France is not the same that it was 30 years before.

It's really a political for your service to.

France over the years type of thing, yeah.

Service to France exactly.

But yeah, a few years later, he gets caught up in a huge scandal involving his daughter, and his daughter was born in Constantinople.

Sebastian's wife died in childbirth, and the daughter eventually marries Duke de Pazslan, who's a very important character.

He's in the French House of Lords.

He's the peer of the realm, friend of the king, really good aristocrat.

And together, the couple have nine children.

And there's tension in the family and a lot of squabbling.

Divorce is very difficult at that time.

You can't easily get a divorce.

And they end up fighting.

And one night, the Duke stabs his wife as Mastiani's daughter many times, doesn't kill her, but finishes him off by hitting her with a Candlestick, so murders her.

He then tries to commit suicide.

He's arrested, it's a big scandal, but he manages to obtain some poison while he's arrested and kills himself while in custody.

And that means he avoids trial.

And there's a rumour even today that the government managed to get him some poison so that they were spared the scandal of a trial.

But in any case, there's a huge scandal.

And this totally discredits the king and the court.

It makes the aristocrats look debauched because the Duke was having an affair with the governess and he killed his wife.

Seems like there's no honour and no principles, yeah?

I've read, I've read that that the general populace thought they were.

They thought the aristocrats were above the law and didn't have to answer any penalties.

Exactly.

And it really plays into that.

So the king there is a revolution in 1848.

And although it's a contributing fact, it's not their it's not their sort of match that lights the powder cake.

It's a contributing factor.

And it really people demanding better moles from their government is you get a real sense of that.

And with the the Duke being well connected to King Louis Philippe, it makes it even worse.

Now there is a rumour that the Duke didn't kill himself, but was given a new identity and ended up in Nicaragua.

And I've seen online the whole thread of arguments as to why that is or isn't the case.

But leave that to your listeners to, to maybe go off and have a look at that.

But it's an interesting little episode.

And yeah, it was an important episode in in French history.

Well.

Sebastiani dies three years later at the age of 79.

What do you think his legacy is?

Well, the fact that he's 79, he's an old, he's an old guy and ends up at the top of his game, I think that's probably 1 legacy.

He has that legacy as a statesman, as a minister, as a diplomat.

French hero in a way, managed to negotiate his way through all the ups and downs of 19th century French history.

So hats off to him for that.

A successful Corsican in Paris.

However, an awful personal life with his wife dying and his daughter dying, yeah.

Really difficult personal life and I think he didn't, he didn't marry again until much later on in his life.

There was that the whole period of the Napoleon, it was after 1807 when his wife died.

He was he was a bachelor, but as we're talking about Napoleon's generals, I think that the legacy as a soldier is, is more questionable.

And I I find him oddly lacking.

And I think, like I mentioned, I think he'd make a good Colonel, but he never was able quite to raise his game when in charge of something more complicated or bigger like a call or to coordinate that with other generals and do that successful successfully.

And I think that he lacked that sort of effortless ability to command.

But instead of that, you know, he was always available, always willing, Just not very inspirational.

Yeah.

And.

And you credited him, you know, he was able to pivot his career.

Like, all right, well, I'm, I'm not going to be a general anymore.

I'll be a politician and, and a diplomat.

And he, I think he did well with it.

Yeah, I think he was better off as with that as a career than as a soldier, because I think as a soldier, well, he, he did work his men hard.

He's he's like Murat in that sense.

If you want to destroy your cavalry without achieving great results, then give them to Sebastiani.

But you know, that's probably not what you want on the on the core level.

But there are plenty of colonels who did that and and got away with it.

And I think Sebastiani was probably should have been one of those.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, I thank you for that Jonathan.

Wonderful episode on Sebastiani again.

Recommend you check out all of Jonathan's books.

The Death of Joaquim Yarra is a really good one.

Killing Napoleon also very good.

And what discusses the assassination attempts on Napoleon?

But yeah, great having you on the show my friend.

I really learned a lot.

Thank you.

It was a pleasure talking to you, John, and have a great afternoon.