Welcome to the Listen to Your Footsteps podcast.

I'm your host, Kojo Buffer.

In this podcast, I speak to Africans from across a multitude of sectors, including business, art, culture, media, design, technology, advertising and everything in between, delving into their journeys and reflecting on the lessons they have learned along the way.

It's about gaining insight into why and how they do what they do.

These conversations offer a treasure trove of takeaways and a wide range of topics including craft, relationships, Wellness, parenting, entrepreneurship, and much more.

So my guest today is Reggie V Kumalo, an artist, motorcycle enthusiast, and creator of the Ubuntu Art Residency Village in Zanzibar.

How are you, brother?

I'm already self treasure.

I'm good, man.

Yeah, yeah.

Can we still call you Reggie?

Can we still call you Reggie the Nomad since it seems you have like settled in Zanzibar?

Absolutely, man.

I think just like Zeliga's was, was probably my forefathers, one of my forefathers, right?

I think we've always, I've always had this.

I will always have this nomad nomad in me.

So I think there's a lot more to come from me, like in different countries, settling in different countries, different places, different continents.

So yeah, I think definitely you can call me Reggie the Norman still.

Oh.

Good.

What did you want to be when you grow up?

I just wanted to be free, man, like because I grew up traveling a lot with my dad, right?

But I just wanted to just freedom to, I think to, to just to be, to, to express.

I think that was the one thing that I wanted just to just to see the world, to express, to, to, to experience it fully, you know?

Yeah, I think that's that's an honest take on it.

Where did you grow?

Up all over men all over.

A bit of South Africa, a bit of Botswana, a bit of them, a bit of Namibia, a bit of yeah, I grew up travelling mostly, so yeah.

What?

Was your father doing that?

You were travelling so much.

Our I think I'll say that you're the businessman, but I can't really get into anything.

So yeah, just just yes, yes, all over, yeah.

It is interesting because it gives you.

It probably gave you just a different outlook on the continent, which is very different from from a lot of people, particularly particular era growing up in South Africa where because I mean, during apartheid, South Africa was so separated from the rest of the continent that that the perceptions and understanding of what life was like outside of South Africa was not there.

And it sounds like you got you got a very kind of rich, rich education.

In it?

Absolutely.

You know, I, I would like just generally like being a, a kid, a 5 year old because, you know, I think your eldest Mama, your memory is probably like you're four or five, you know, and my eldest memory was I think walking downhill, bro, going up to Carlton to, to meet up with the uncle of mine.

This is 93, right?

I think.

And we are always on the move and then seeing this TV on the on the window, small little TV.

And I'm thinking, I want to I want to have one of those and I'm going to, you know, and do we do we showing someone travelling on that screen?

And you know, it's just been something that's been I felt like it called to me or something was kind of laying it out to me right from a young age, just putting all these pictures of moving pictures, you know, moving environments, moving all of that and taking the train from from from from Joel book leaving South Africa to Botswana.

And I remember falling off the bed in the train, you know, just a sleeper bed to sleeper sleeper coach.

So I remember falling off the bed and it's just such an adventure already, man.

And I think that's, that was such an experience that you can't, I can never forget.

That was my earliest memory, you know, of travel.

And it's like getting into another country and hearing people talking.

It's almost a different language and different mannerisms that kind of really sinks into you.

So definitely I've had a huge advantage.

I'll call it an advantage to a lot of other.

Yeah.

Where did you go to school?

I went to boarding schools, man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I went to a boarding school in Zoom.

That was my high school, and then did a couple other schools, different, different countries too.

But yeah, mostly I did education in Zoom and that was a beautiful experience.

And yeah, a bit hard, I think when I was younger, but definitely the, the more I, I, I got to understand myself and understood, you know, yeah, just life a bit more than it opened up a bit more.

It became really such an adventure.

At what stage did art become something that you saw as a path for you?

I the moment it clicked in terms of like, OK cool, I could make a living from this or in general.

Well, just the moment when you kind of went, this is a path I want to go.

I potentially want to go down like, what's your, what was your relationship with art before that or growing?

Up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think that's it.

That's a good one.

That's a good one.

Because, you know, I've always, I always, I always could draw.

I always could sketch.

I always could, you know, I was doodling around on on anything that I could get my sketch on.

And so after something that I could do.

So it was never something that I was like, oh, I need to learn.

I need to this something I can make money from.

It was like, I have it.

So you know what you know, like you have it, you don't care about it.

And I've always thought like, you know, always with black families and all of that, they always say, well, I just art is not something that you can, you can make a living from.

So they want you to be a doctor or, you know, pilot or whatever.

And I, I think I grew up with that until end of my A levels where I just, I done well in art and, and I done my architectural studies also.

I'm not, I'm not technical drawing.

And I, I was admitted to, well, I was accepted, but I didn't go of course to, to College in not Cambridge or not.

What was that somewhere in, in the UK, right.

And I couldn't go, I couldn't afford my dad had passed.

My dad had passed when I was young, so easy stated couldn't.

It was exhausted at that time, so I couldn't afford going further.

But then I started looking for work.

So on Gumtree I remember and I applied to something was still calling for art.

So, so I was like, Hey, I would love to on my, on my, on my application or my little AD.

I put that I want to work with anything to do with arts, right?

I want to work in the art gallery.

I could be an assistant.

I want to learn.

I just want to be in the environment with arts.

And then I got a call from an Afrikaner lady in Centurion and saying, read your comfort interview to be cool.

And I went to the frame shop.

Do we only just framing arts?

Do we framing, you know, photos and all of that?

OK, I took the job.

Anyway, I got the job and I started turning this place into a little mini art gallery on the walls, using the wall so people would come.

And I said, why don't you hang your wall, your paintings on the walls and so on, right.

And then we're selling a bit.

And then the thing was going well, but of course you didn't want to expand.

So at that point I'm 21/21/22 or so and she doesn't want to expand, she doesn't want to take the next shop that was available next year.

So because I was like OK, then I saw OK, essentially.

You've been curating the shop with.

Clients.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely with.

Clients paintings.

Yeah, so she, she didn't want to take the the next shop mainly, I don't know, she was quite comfortable.

So I thought, OK, I'm never going to grow from here.

I'm never going to grow, you know, so and I just started painting, doing a little shows on my own with a friend are in the malls.

Little exhibitions in the malls will get other people's art and exhibit.

And then I don't know how how deep I want to go into.

I can go deeper into the story if we've got time.

So And yeah, like I had AI used to play in a church band right at that time.

And a friend of mine was like, he had a calling or something.

You you could hear, you could, the spirit could tell and so on.

So you felt, you felt, you felt that he was that, that there was a word for me.

So he told me that night before I just went to the mall and started painting all of a sudden that day.

And as I was painting then he called me.

This is my first painting I've done since high school.

And then he started.

It's just telling me, hey, man, Reggie, you're going to move from here where you are.

I felt this is the word for you from God.

You're going to move from where you are.

You're going to be pick someone in in the country.

You're going to be known in the country.

Then you're going to go further.

You're going to not be known across Africa from then you think you, you made it, but then you're going to go across the world, you're going to shake hands with the president.

You're going to be someone that's going to influence the world and the world's going to know you and, and.

This is when you're working in your first.

OK, this is my first day.

I'm working on the first first day, first painting in a little flat lead, in a little flat, actually not even flat lead, but like, yeah.

And man.

And then it she and I just, you know, I thought these church things, you know, you know, people always talk there.

You're going to be this.

And then the next day I take this painting, I finish the painting, take it, put it in the window in the in the shop.

And I because I was riding motorbikes and I'd have passed a friend of mine in it was interesting.

Somehow he just wrote it.

He came to to visit me that day.

And then so you when you got he's like our regiment.

Listen, I'm just passing through.

But you know, last night as I had this word for you, you know, and then he literally taught me exactly word for word.

You're going to move from here.

You're going to be this, this, this, you're going to be this, this across Africa, across the world.

You're going to shake end of the president.

They're going to be influential.

Same thing.

Unbelievable, man.

Like exactly word for word that what my friend had said.

They don't know each other.

They don't know each other.

OK, I'm like, OK, cool.

That's that's nice.

Now I'm like, OK, a bit panicked too.

And then someone walks into the, into the shop that's very same day later in the evenings.

And then he says, oh, he's walking around.

So he's, he's got these photos and then you he's so I'm, he puts them on the table and I'm like, sure it like, it's like, do you know what that is?

And then he was shaking hands with Kabila of the, the, the Congo GRC president at the time.

And they were doing mining there and so on and so on.

So they were doing the mines for the mines basically.

So on the, the machinery and all.

So he was the group CEO of that.

And so then he's just walking around the shop and I'm, I'm still putting up the photos.

And then then he's like, oh man, we did that painting on the window by the window.

Then I said, it's me.

Then he's like, oh man, how much is that?

And then which is 4000, I sold it for 4000 rands.

My salary was 4000 rands man.

So yeah, just pay me a month salary.

I thought it was in one painting.

So I was like, oh and then he's like, then he came again the second time.

Then he's like, OK man, make 3 paintings for me, right?

So I make 3 paintings.

I make 20K for that.

I make about right.

I don't know.

It is about roughly almost close to 20K with my salary about 20 something, right?

And yeah.

And then he eventually, then he then he says on the last painting says Reggie, what do you want to do?

So I told him I've been working on this.

This is how I've been working on it.

I'd like to do a gallery.

I'd like to do this, this, this, this.

Then he says to me, Reggie creature job month end, we the group will finance, I will finance your, your gallery, you know.

And man, I couldn't believe it.

I couldn't believe it.

And it was unbelievable.

And I said no, how, how, what's on?

Then I went and told my my boss at the time, so like, Reggie, you owe me money.

You know, I went to I bought you, I helped you buy this and this and there.

So you still have credit with me.

So then I went back and I called the guy like, hey, man, I can't leave because this she's got all her money and so on.

He's like, don't worry, I'll come in, I'll come in.

And I was like, and then she's laughing at me the next like, Oh, you see, people always promise whatever, it won't happen, but you don't worry.

But anyway, then the guy walked in and then opened his left.

I'm like, what's the account?

Then he paid it.

She was over 12 K at that time.

And this is like just during the just slightly after the World Cup or so I think 2020 10s around there even slightly before actually it's been slightly before, I think, I'm not sure, but somewhere then then he he paid it and then he said, don't worry, you don't owe.

I don't know.

It's will.

This is part of the supporting you.

And then I was the social development program of the, the mining group.

And then funny enough, my mom had left when I was pretty young, you know, left home, left us anyway.

And so I, there was always this gap in my life where there was never really like a parent with my dad or so it passed right.

And so my uncles that were at that time, yeah, my uncles, I, there was no connection anymore to my father's side of family, the zoo side or, or yeah.

And all of the, and my mom's side also, I'll say.

So literally, I was just mostly on my own.

Yeah.

And basically growing up, right.

And my, my, then his partner, this the, the, the guy who found me, his business partner was a lady by name of Cindy Mabasu Koyana.

And she was the chairperson of the group, chairwoman, chairlady of the whole group of companies.

And she was my vaso.

And which is my vaso was a brother to Kumalo in, in if you look at the past.

So all of a sudden I have my sort of.

And then she she then becomes my mentor.

He was my mentor for a while.

And then she becomes my mentor.

And then the man that I had lost, I found, you know, I had found slightly now a young man, but I found.

And she started helping me, guiding me.

Reggie, this, this, this.

And Long story short, we opened a gallery in Parkhurst.

I was living in Parkhurst and everything changed, of course.

And yeah, I was doing well.

I think he also even did an article article on me at that time.

Yeah.

I don't know if you don't, you know, but yeah, I think you were with.

You're still with.

I'm not sure which one was that.

Destiny, man, something connect.

What was Destiny, Destiny man?

Yeah.

So we've done we've done an article, but it wasn't, of course, this this detailed, right.

And yeah, so things started opening up then, you know, meeting them, Becky's meeting whoever, then all of this started opening up just as was said, right.

And then, I don't know even mind anything that was like basically touching or when I was talking to you was like kind of like opening up doors for me.

My name, my neighbors were, were Mushroom, Mushroom Productions and Mushroom Productions where we're bringing the M&M's.

They were doing the set staging for all of these YouTube or whoever like they were yeah, concerts and so on.

But then they'd open Skyrim Live, right.

And with Skyrim Live, they were only doing it on Saturday nights.

And so I was really close with the with the the guys at Mushroom.

And so we always took him over the wall and like Reggie, come over.

We've got to go there.

They come over to the gallery and then they're like, Reggie, what else do you want to do?

And I was like, club man.

I would like to do, you know, gigs I would like to do like club whatever something they're like Reggie, when we've got this space, you know, they just brought most if I think they brought pastor at the time, whatever, we've got this space.

Why don't you come?

And see it and then whatever and then you can have it.

You can use it from Monday, from Sunday to to Friday.

You can use it.

Don't worry about it.

So now at a club too, in a way, you know, just things were just, they were coming, man.

They were coming.

And was with that also as a young person you get arrogant, you know, you get very cocky a bit.

And I'm 2425, I think at that time.

And it feels like everything is just falling into place.

So it's like it's like a fulfilling a prophet and prophecy without you actually having to put in the work.

Yeah, yeah.

And at that point, I stopped painting.

I just done, I, the last paintings I'd done were those four paintings that got me that opportunity.

You know which, which was crazy because it's, but anyway, I look at it now, it was a it's, it's what is propelled, right?

I just, I just, I just never liked to at that point.

I wasn't just like I was painting because I could paint, but there was no anything behind it.

There was no drive, there was no story.

There was no hearts.

There was no the spirit element wasn't there and.

It was more a means to an end and the end was there like you were you were living good, you're living good, you're doing stuff.

So it's like, OK, well I did that to get to here, so why do I need to keep doing that?

So exactly, but also I got preoccupied with doing the galleries duties right and doing all of this, finding going to events, going to whatever.

It's like a it's a fun, awesome life to be, you know, a young person, you know, everything is quite available.

You've got spending money in terms of you can travel the, the money's there.

You've got biscuit you, you're OK, man.

And then I think then I, I chewed a bit more because I opened a yoga studio down the road in, on, on Parker and on, on, on 4th Ave.

and Parker has to open my own yoga studio.

Then I had a little acting that I was doing too on the side of that.

So everything was just, and then I started writing shows.

I started writing some shows.

Rase, Rase would meet me and then we would talk and then she would guide me and so on.

So Cindy was, Cindy was opening up all of these people to because she wanted this young man to grow and, you know, be connected in a way.

But of course then I, you know, then I got a little bit of a big head and then then they were telling me eventually we had the sport meeting and so on.

They're like, Reggie, you're not really, you know, you need to learn a bit more.

You need to whatever.

So on to jump to then you can branch out on your own.

So I'm at that point, I'm like, Nah, Nah, that you guys, you know, Yeah, yeah.

You're holding me back, you know, So then I, I said then I sort of like parted ways.

We parted ways and everything, sort of everything was working for a while.

You know, they've done some shows in Netherlands with the, with the little thing that I was doing with some people that I partnered with.

No scent I saw from that things that and then I had a bike.

Of course, then the then money was drying out and then I sold my bike to pay for the yoga studio rent.

I'm thinking like, it's going to, it's going to happen, you know, like Ian Parker's, there is the housewives, you know, they're running up and down in the mornings.

This has got to work, surely.

So I'm risking everything, risking everything, everything that I was getting from other things, from little short little paintings that I, I'd sold for other people.

I was putting into us little, these little things.

And man, I was spreading myself too thin, you know?

What do I need to in the?

Motorcycle so yeah so when I was young and I think we're I think I'm not sure where where which country I think so I knows him.

My dad someone had owed my dad money my dad was like yeah crazy.

Took his motorbike, so the bike was always somewhere and then yeah, so yeah, so I always seen the bike and I was jumping on this bike and yeah, I liked it that I just felt like there's just, you know, I remember thinking, you know, I'm a biker and then eventually I start working and I bought my bike and been riding since.

Actually my brother had a bike too, so I was learning from him and then got my bike.

Then I started learning again because just he was a real scooter.

Then I had then I bought a 125 CCI think 200CC and yeah then then, then yeah, then I bought a 650 from that so on.

But that sold that bike, sold my bike and yeah, I set it afresh.

And then so I sold everything by whatever any little asset I had, I sold any money that was coming in, I put towards the rent towards this little project.

And then then it was done.

Man, I I had no money and you know, so that was it.

And then I remember I was really like, I was really done.

I was staying with friends now moved in with a couple like a digs, you know, digs.

So staying with mates and you know, every day of like something is going to come.

It happened.

I was trying this writing.

I just got in.

What was that?

Some, some, some money for a film that I'd written and so on.

But like, you know, it works with rebates.

So you still have to get someone to fund that.

And I tried, I moved around, man, trying to get this money because I also, I can't go back to Cindy.

I can't go back to, to, to the guys to ask them to, to, you know, you know, and anyway, that didn't work out.

And then I decided, OK, cool.

You know, Reggie, you've got arts you can paint and you like motorbikes and you and you like to travel.

You've been travelling your life.

So how about you put those together and then no one can ever rob me from that.

And so I started applying.

I did this proposal trying to get bikes from BM from Honda.

Then one day, eventually agreed, they gave a bike.

But I don't know what happened that I couldn't.

I think I don't know to do with licenses, something to do with that.

I don't know.

I don't know should do us about that, but something so that fell through.

They were like, Rich, when you're ready, we will we will still be here.

You know, something, something.

Then I was like, OK, do I need to bike Then maybe let me just take the, the, the bus.

Then I contact I contact Intercap and then they gave me a a sponsorship.

Intercap says, OK, you can take a get get a ticket that you can like a hop on hop of kind of thing.

They they they accepted that.

But then I was like, OK, cool.

Then someone told me about best bus.

Yeah, best bus is like for tourists basically from Jawbox down to Cape Town.

We go through the eastern, we go down there, the east side East Coast, down to through Druckensburg, through to Durban, Durban, down the east, the Eastern Cape, Eastern Cape and and then go all the way down to to to Cape Town.

And you stop in these little, small little town villages and towns and so on.

Like you know, and so I, I, I, they then they gave me a ticket also and that started to go with them where they where they couldn't.

I would then do the inter cap thing, right.

But then then so we started in the idea started in Joburg.

I was filming the places and these little like like basically like a little dorky right about travel in South Africa and I was just shooting that and I was staying backpackers.

And so that went on from Joburg all the way.

I remember in Coffee Bay.

So they've got this heel on on the on the hilltop.

There's like this.

And then I'm I went and decided to sit there one day and look, I looked into the ocean and man, it is never ever been so clear like hearing a voice so clear and so clearly that I just started crying, you know, and that was that girl was, you know, and it just said, this boy said, if you trust me, I will show you an adventure.

You, you know that only your spirit can understand And, and if you trust me, I will, you know, so basically those words, but this was now more to me, you know, just not really, you know, And man, I started crying a lot like just like there was no one near me, but like I started crying, waiting.

And it was all of a sudden my heart had found truth, you know, like when the truth hits you, there's nowhere to hide, you know, And, and especially when something is spiritual and deep like that, you know, anyway, that, that I heard that voice and I went, carried on going down to Cape Town.

Sure, a little bit stayed in Cape Town.

Then I eventually moved to Cape Town, moved in Cape Town.

I stayed there, you know, a backpacker kind of vibes in between just just hassling it out somehow.

You know, I remember one time there was no beds in this one place where we're staying and there was no other place to go.

So they, they, they dislike backyard, but there's like a cover on it.

There's like a, so the, the ceiling, I mean, the, the roof goes over it and then with the back and then so they put cushions a little like seats in the back.

And man, I remember I had, I had to sleep there one night and man, I was shattered, bro, I was, I was shattered.

And I was like, Oh my word, I'm homeless.

I'm literally, I'm homeless, you know?

And I was crying, man, I was crying.

And then the next day I'm thinking, OK, how am I going to kill myself, right?

I'm just, you know, I'm thinking how should I do it with the train, go whatever, so on.

Then this one friend of mine comes in, comes in with some J, some Zo, and then we smoke it out at the back of this backpacker.

And then so you used to train stuff like train train hopping, you know, like where you see, where you see.

So you don't really pay for it, but you jump out when you, you know, so on and so on, right.

So we did that all the way to Musenburg.

So we're chilling in Muisenberg and actually I'm listening to this song, actually my headphones going on the train and I'm thinking, OK, OK, so I'm going to see myself with the train.

OK, cool.

I'm planning it.

I'm thinking it.

And then this song came on Man by Ben Howard.

The song came on and I'm like listening to the song on the train and I start crying even more now.

Now there's people around you.

But so I'm trying not to be seen, right?

And the song hits me, jump off, go to to the beach and I'm like chilling there and this.

And then I then I just could not give up.

You know, I just like you say, like, you know, just could not give up.

And then I got back and I think I wrote an e-mail to Cindy.

And I say, Cindy, I'm.

I'm sorry.

You know, I mean, I was.

This is two or three years later, man, I'm sorry.

I'm 20.

I'm 27, but I'm 2728.

Yeah.

So just I left when I was 24.

So.

Yeah, that's why I left 27.

Yeah.

And I tell you what I'm trying to do.

And and I apologize.

I'm a young.

I was a young man and I'm learning.

We did that, you know, 16, that there's a lot to learn and so on.

And that she holds a very special place in my heart.

Not that I want to come back, but I was just letting her know that I'm sorry, you know.

And they said, ah, you know what?

Yeah.

And kept on.

Take the, take the bus.

We're doing this event.

I don't know whether the Tasha is or something, but just in Hyde Park, somewhere in Hyde Park, we're doing this event.

Come, come, you know when I'm chilling with the other mentees that I've been mentoring also the the the girls and it's a monkey.

We've been chilling, we've been chilling.

So then we're going to be having this, it's a mental circle, mentorship circle, whatever, so on with mom, Becky and so on.

So we need to, yeah.

So I went and then she needs like then we, we spoke and then she told me also she has left.

She has left.

Yeah.

She's, no, she has left that business too.

There's something else that happened there too for her.

So anyway, she left and, and then so we, we just talk and we talk about life, talk about what's been going on with me and I really openly just tell her everything.

I, you know, And then she says, Reggie, we're doing this mentorship circle.

We want to find out how like want the mentors to come up with a program that can best help students get students into school and the whole school feels my support thing support that.

How can we assist with that?

Then I then I, I was like, oh, but I've got a brilliant idea.

I've been doing it actually my, my travels around and I'm going to paint with that money.

I'm going to be able to find kid kids to school, but I'm going to travel.

As I'm traveling, I'm painting, I'm going to get inspiration and I'm painting that and then so on.

It's like, oh, that's brilliant.

And then, then, then they're like, OK, cool.

I was like, what, what do you need?

So I was like, I need just a gathering of people.

Let me do these paintings and then and so on.

And then you, you can, I can do this show.

I can do a little mini show as well.

I can canvas, I paint, I paint.

I'm back to painting since the last four paintings, right?

Couple years later, man, I do these paintings and I sell quite a bit.

We did the show.

It's what's this place in Branston by owned by Sean Sean, Sean Bev What's this?

It's like a club now.

It's it's started off as a I'm not even sure with the star this with their the the the logo is a star like sort of you're.

Talking about, you're talking about after I left the I left the streets.

So yeah, I left.

I left.

I left the streets a long time ago.

Fair enough, Fair enough, Fair enough.

Man.

This thing, he's opened a couple of them, he's opened one in Durban, he's opened a couple.

He set it off in not oxygen, it's just that.

Is it cold?

But now it's a big thing.

You know, there's DJs now a whole lot anyway, so I did the I did the show there.

He was a friend of mine also from pockets.

We used to ride bikes together and so he's like already you can do a show it's OK whatever.

So they gave us a space and no pay whatever sound cool.

And I saw a couple PCs with that I'm able to buy some gear for the bike for my bike.

And then I and then one of the ladies from Whipple Tomato and Gloria, Sir Robert, Gloria, Sir Robert.

And but anyway, the, the Whipple ladies.

So they then say, already we're, we're doing a project in Lesotho, so on and so on.

And then I go, can you go paint a mural in this church?

And then I tell them the prize, OK, that time just hundred.

I've got $100,000 and 100,000 Randsford.

So stretch away what my they gave me a deposit, which is 50 something.

I still had some money from the from the shore for the motorbike bought a BMW.

You know, I had to get a bike that was going to be able to take me across that, that, you know, so this time I'm, I'm prepared to be a full on hobo, but with a bike I'm, I'm prepared to be on in my tent.

I said I'm going to.

Yeah, I'm like at the same time you.

So what's fascinating mean in listening to you tell these stories is ideas that for most people would be a pie in the sky idea, right.

So, so the idea that actually, do you know what?

I ride motorcycles, I can paint.

I mean, you've done 4 paintings.

Yeah, you've done 4 paintings.

That's all you've done in terms of your painting.

Absolutely.

But you're like, I can, I like motorcycles, I like to travel and I can paint.

This is the idea.

This is what I'm going to do for most people.

You get that idea.

And it's just like, you see the obstacles.

Do you see the things that are going to get in the way?

So for me, what's fascinating me about how you're telling these stories is and, and yes, I recognize with hindsight, sometimes it, it looks a lot more linear.

It's not, you know, life is not as linear as it is, but still the fact that you've gone through you, you had this idea and, and kind of through time you've realized the idea.

And you've gone and told other people, you've said to other people, actually, this is the idea, this is what I need.

That's what's fascinating me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah.

It's it's it's, it's one of those that you.

But also when you're, you've got no other option, you know, but to bet on yourself and also you've got, you've got nothing anymore to really be like that gets in the way of, of, of the actual you stuff coming out.

Because all of that was really kind of like saying no, you're looking at the wrong things.

You should be looking within everything else was like a destruction, a distraction in a way.

And that was so we get caught up in a lot of other things and then we don't realize that the person the the God you're looking for is within right and all of that my.

Father used, my father used to say that as men we mature later.

So we mature kind of in our late 20s.

And what I found was at 272829.

I kind of you kind of reflect on the journey up to that point and it's kind of like you throw everything up in the air again and then you see what sticks.

Like you have a plan.

Like I was one of those.

I had a plan and I was living according to the plan.

And then at 2425 things got shaken up.

And then at 28, it was kind of like I'd had the experience of the plan and then I'd had the experience of life not going according to plan.

And it was literally 2829 thirty that I kind of, I found my, you know, I found my path and I found my center.

And I've just found, I mean, I don't know about women, but I found out a lot of men.

It was interesting for me when you said you are now, you know, you're 24 and then you're now 2728 and you're able to go back and say I'm sorry because you've had, you've been given or you've acquired the life experience to recognize also where you're at fault.

And that requires a certain element of self-awareness and self reflection that we don't have when we're 23.

Yeah, I think the reflection differently came from the, the, the, the journey.

And I think it's crucial for every man to go on a walkabout in Australia, they'll call it a walkabout.

This is not just going to the Bush.

And you know, like our tradition would say, like there's that and then there's the actual way there's no one around you that you have to go find.

I like also sometimes I'm, I'm not any more religious, but there's some stories that I can take from the Bible, like Jesus going on this 40 day thing into the wilderness.

I, I think it's, I think it's crucial for all of us to have that moment in life where you need to go into the wilderness, you know, and also the, the 27 thing.

I, I also, I figured out that it's actually 1/4 life crisis.

It's a quarter life crisis.

We, we all have to go through that.

And so this is the break we'll make for a lot of people.

If you don't come out from that, forget everything else.

I mean, it's never too late to to to turn it around.

But that's where I think we get a the Co owners, you know, the Co owners, the maid, then, you know, like you like, you know, I'm going to bet on myself.

I'm going to bet on myself.

This is that is the perfect place to really start.

And then also you've got this because once you get to 30, this is where you like, I don't care anymore.

And this is where I am.

You've kind of figured out you've kind of like I still I think it's developing, but you, you kind of like at that .31 you don't really care anymore what people think, you know, and those that care, it's, it's, it's, it's just going to be, you're probably going to be the one that follows more than the, the one that sets a trend or, or, or or, you know, opens up the path opens up the the way.

Yeah.

And so I tell them this, I tell tell Cindy the, the whole plan, everything else.

And they I may I sell whatever song I get this 50 Gap bought the bike and I'm I've got the tent, I've got my gear full on everything, everything I get properly for the bike, for the trip, for just the road.

I'm prepared to be leaving off the bike.

The bike was, you know, was me.

The tent was me.

The the eating off, the cooking for myself in a little stove.

That was me.

I was satisfied.

I was happy.

I didn't want anything to do with anyone.

Didn't want anything to do with, you know, and then I travel, man.

And then I left Joburg and to find out this is, this is, this is the interesting part.

So I've done that with the arts.

So I'm like, OK, cool.

So I need to find this person again.

I need to find what is the story about the arts?

What, where is my spirit?

What's my spirit around that?

And I started traveling now making art, painting, painting in, in different towns, different places.

And I did, I think I did South Africa for a year, traveling around.

Actually, no, no, I traveled down to Lesuchi, Lesuchi.

Then I left the city because the church wasn't yet finished, so I couldn't paint, but they paid me half already.

Then I went to as I'm as I'm traveling through.

Then there was a huge storm, a snow snowstorm and I'm on the bike, man.

I never experienced the snow in my, on a motorbike.

My, my, my, my pinky was as big as my thumb.

I had frostbite because I didn't have heated grips.

So I was riding through Carlsberg.

Through Carlsberg.

I went through how many?

I've been everywhere in SA on about everywhere, every corner, Eastern Cape, Western Cape, Northern Cape, wherever you can think of little places that you never towns where white guys are brown.

You know where people are literally man like they've been burned by the sun and they're like men.

I've been everywhere on the bike and this was like a challenge I never experienced and went through the snowstorm.

Then I remember stopping in some farm.

I was like, I can't go on.

And I went to with the bike and then to this farm.

I'm like, so the one, the one person was working there says to me, I know the, the, the, the owners are not here.

So I'm like, brother, at that time, this this person, because I'm in the Eastern Cape, they're roughly there.

And the, the guy says, I know man, the place is now it's not like, can I please stay in the bun?

So he says you can stay in the bun.

No, no, that's OK, cool.

And I take my bike.

I put it in the bun as I'm, as I'm moving in the band.

The, the, the, the mother, the, the, the woman.

Like, no, no, no.

You must come.

Stay with us.

It's too cold in there.

I was hoping to just make my little fire in the barn sleep right there.

You know, just like an adventurer, you know, like any anything that you would think get back, I would do right.

Like you're out there rolling it out, you know?

Yeah.

Proper adventurer.

Well.

But let's say particular bikers because I, I, I ride, I don't mind.

I don't mind the occasional I've did what I've did one camping trip for a night.

I'm like, my father worked too hard for me to be going and sleeping out in the elements.

So I'm not, I'm not a huge fan of the camping.

I enjoy the different styles.

I.

Enjoy the different styles of writing.

I always say that I want to be competent in every style of writing, but yeah, you're doing, you're doing it your way.

Yeah, that's that's that's for you.

I'm not doing snow bro.

I had no choice, man.

It was this was all I had.

This was my home.

The tent was my home.

The pipe was my, my, my, my, my companion and travel, travel, travel buddy.

And you know, and this is all I had.

So anyway, they, they, they take me inside the house and I've got my little porridge, the odds porridge that you can just put the one minute porridge.

Odd thing, the families there, there's a fire in the middle and of the house there, you know, like what workers sports is sort of like farm, farm hands.

So it's not really like the most, I think there was about like 9 people in that in the one room and we're all and then so they've got a whole family, the grandma, the grandpa, the grandpa and, and the son with his wife and the kids and cousins.

So I'm telling the story of my travels.

We're talking.

And then like they're like, what are you doing?

Why are you doing it?

No, so and and so, yeah, now this is like, and I know I share my, my, my canned foods that we share.

And we had with a meal left some odds for the kids and I stepped right next to the fire.

They put me next to the fire, my sleeping bag.

They're all sleeping.

We're all sleeping around the fire.

The whole family is through the stranger.

And then man, such A and this is this is where I start to experience Ubuntu, you know, and you know, you would think coming from job, because job because is quite a harsh, right as harsh thing that you you hardly.

We talk a lot about Ubuntu.

We talk a lot about it and we are, you know, another.

This person doesn't have to, you know, and so on, you know, but to experience it, I mean, I experience it through Cindy, but in a different form.

Experiencing it with people that don't actually have a lot is totally something that is and, you know, beautiful.

So I said to them, you know, I'm going to come back and I'm going to come back.

I really want to take the kids to support the kids who for school and all of that, you know.

So anyway, I left as I'm riding down and I think I'm closer to man Sorry.

My, my, my head is, it's been a while.

I'm riding down to Cape Town.

I stop in one town, Worcester.

I think it was, I'm not sure, yeah.

Anyway, before Worcester and I got so sick, I got so sick, man, I couldn't, I wrote in pain.

From there I got so sick, I thought because I think I drank a tap water or something or something, but I had issues anyway with my stomach, right.

And then I got diagnosed.

Yeah, I just got diagnosed with stomach cancer and I was diagnosed with stomach cancer.

Then I then they're like, go do more.

So I went to the hospital and they're like, Oh yeah, that's just this, man.

I was like broken a bit because I just found myself, you know, I just found myself.

Yeah, I mean you.

You find a rhythm again.

You find a purpose again, you've kind of found you've found you like you.

Said yeah, yeah, yeah, You know, I just found myself, man, and and then it's yeah, man.

And then I got to Cape Town.

I was meant to do more, more scans and more all of that.

I just didn't bother, you know, I was just like Kenya.

It's no one is going to stop this.

I'm going to go on this bike ride, you know, and stayed with a couple of friends and then I was telling the the biking community I'm going on a trip across Africa.

So people said reaching out to me come.

I didn't tell them about anything that I was sick.

I didn't tell anyone.

I didn't even tell Cindy.

I didn't tell anyone.

Then I went to to Kebab Ellis to some people.

I mean, people are offering to come take me in.

Oh, you're doing this.

So come start from the most southern tip.

You can be happy for it.

So I wrote down, I went down, people met me.

It's beautiful, man.

Africa kind of community people, different old people just opening up little bags for my bike.

This, this people coming.

Oh, will you come?

I don't know which, I don't know if I can name them, but you know, some, you know, one company offered me bars for my bike so I can put the bags and all of that.

So, so they open, they, they, they, they offered me all of these and I managed to get all of that.

Then, then one day I'm staying with friends.

My friend had just opened a backpack as in Greenpoint.

I'm staying with my mates at that time and stayed there for a month or two whilst I was fixing up the bike, getting all of this stuff together.

From that money that I had, I was lifted about $1000 or so.

Well, I'm going to use in dollars and I'm like it's either now or never, you know, snow or never such the guys are sleeping and whatever so on.

And I woke up early in the morning, take the bike, hit the roads, you know?

How did you decide where where you're going?

Like, I mean, so you're starting at, you know, the southernmost point and you're like, I'm going to ride across Africa.

Yeah, but it, it also sounds like, I mean, I have a friend of mine, even if we're riding 200 KS, you know, on, on a Sunday, on a Sunday morning, he'll he'll map the route in terms of the kind of the kind of roads, it doesn't feel like you had mapped any type of route.

No, no, no, no.

I was just going with way.

I'm called like wherever like someone says come over this side and then I'll go, you know, And then I didn't even have maps.

I think I reached out to you one.

I think map, map something, map something in our maybe to Africa or Africa to African map.

Yeah, I've seen.

That yeah, yeah, I think I don't know, like.

It's map map to map.

I think it's called map to.

Yeah.

Something along that, along that, along this, yeah.

What I actually would like to find out, how did you end up, how did you end up in Zanzibar?

Did you because that because it's sold as you going from Cape to Cairo, but like you're saying, you were kind of going where the spirit LED you.

Did you go all the way up the continent?

Yeah, I went all the way to Alexandria, Egypt.

Yeah.

So I went from the from Cape Bygalis all the way to to Egypt, through Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya, Tanzania.

And yeah, I did it twice.

I did it twice this trip.

The first time I just did the whole static and then the second time I went straight all the way because the second time I got, the first time I really got sick when I got to Kenya and that's when I had to tell Cynthia about my what I was suffering.

Yeah, yeah, my stomach issues.

And then I got back and then we did more tests and so on.

And then we found out it was actually not stomach cancer.

So I didn't have to panic, but it was something that was developing to something like that.

So it is.

So I we caught on and then I went for treatment for a couple or two months or three months.

And then then it didn't, it didn't work hard for the three months.

Then I had to do another three months and then from that then I went again on a bike were.

You still were you painting now were you?

Were you?

Acting now, now, now I'm an artist now, now I'm an artist now I'm, I'm even established now, now my, my work is quite a prize.

And well, that meaning the theater prize then so, but still now I'm a yeah, a bit of an artist.

And I've done a bit of stuff in Kenya.

I done some stuff in now I'm actually making.

I learned how to, to carve.

So funny enough, as I was traveling, like let's say I would go to Namibia, I would and you know, I was painting with a local artist there.

And then I did this piece and what's on?

And then I went to Victoria Falls.

You know, the most beautiful thing that happened on my way between Botswana and, and, and Victoria Falls, I met an elephant, you know, a bull of an elephant on the road.

And I was alone myself.

And this elephant, I'd been looking for an elephant the whole time I went through Botswana, the whole time I went through the cap preview because I'm thinking, you know, I see, I see the, I see all of these signs that there's been an elephant, you know, and I meet up with this pool man and there was No Fear in me.

I just stopped the bike and the pool also stopped.

We got so I got so funny enough, I was moving towards it slowly, you know, like just with a bit of an idol.

I idling, you know, like the bike and then coming closer and closer to the elephant and the elephant just stood there, you know, like it's looking through, it's looking at you and it doesn't really like like that, but like looking through the eye like, you know, it's, it's, it's like the road.

This is the elephant, this is me.

And like, we just, it's just stood there for a minute and I start crying.

You know, it was like something about that elephant was just so majestic and magical and just almost like, because I can't tell the story without telling what happened just slightly before that, right?

I'm I'm sorry, it's going to get longer and longer because such a huge story.

This is why this thing anyway, I'm at the border, the Zimbabwe border, Botswana and and I have to pay to get in.

I don't know, TIP imports something right for, for the bike and all of that.

So man, I got no money.

I got no money.

I got nothing.

I got no nothing.

Like literally nothing.

I just got, I got what 5050 rands, 50 rands on me.

The guy says no, this is for you to get in.

It's $50.00, right?

So I'm like, so I'm standing outside there.

You know the, you know, the, the guys that hassle people that sort of like help people to, to do the paperwork and stuff.

So this one guy comes to me and said, man, what's up with you?

I'm like, man, this is the situation story.

I'm writing a cross.

This is what that is my story.

I'm an artist.

And then he says, OK, come with me, just bring your papers.

Come with me.

I give him my papers.

He goes in.

Then he then he gives the guys with the stamp, whatever they do, whatever.

Then he puts his money, pays the $50.00 for me, man, I'm like, it's, it's a lot of other one, two cases that I've experienced before that.

But I mean, this was like also nice, just beautiful.

And then this time this paid me the paid for me the $50 go into, go in and I'm crying.

I'm going, I'm riding now.

This is when I met up with the, the elephants.

Yeah.

And the elephant again.

I hear this voice, this girl, you know, like just like this is this is it, you know, like this is, this is the adventure.

I'm telling you, you know, like then then the elephant eventually moved, moved on, and then just dissipate into the Bush and start weeping some more.

I'm riding.

I'm like, you know, I hear you, God, I hear you, I hear you.

I'm riding, you know, and because you took into yourself the whole time, you know, just, and I'm very grateful.

It's just you.

Under that helmet.

Right.

It's just me under, under that helmet.

There's no one you know and a long story anyway.

Everywhere I painted, I did a thing.

That's when our money would have very soft, for whatever reason, the story also.

Would you paint and sell it there?

No, I would paint it and then roll it up and then I'll be like, you know, I'm going to be doing Jewish or when I get to South Africa, right?

OK.

And then I did a sculpture in Victoria Falls and the last day I'm thinking how am I going to go from Victoria Falls to Mozambique now, Right.

I want to cut across the whole of Zimbabwe.

And, and this girl was travelling from Australia, from New Zealand, she was going back to Norway, Finland or Norway.

Do you know one of the two Anyway, so this this place had given me a room because I was shooting my story filming.

So they like exchanged basically, and then they're giving me a room.

So it's like Reggie, let me see your room.

So me, I'm walking out, I'm talking someone and then see that she walks out and then and I was like bye, bye.

She was leaving to cheers.

She because she had heard of my story.

We're talking about it for a while.

We're walking, we're chilling in the same place in her she she goes and then then that that night I'm sleeping and then all of a sudden my something in my pillow.

It's like a hard thing in my pillow.

It's hard.

So I'm like open up my pillow and then I check out.

There's like a little, you know, something like, you know, you know, you know, for a tube like with a like sort of, you know, thing, but just empty, of course.

But there's, there was a letter around that with the, with the elastic.

Reggie, it was lovely meeting you.

I really loved hearing of your story about your travel so far.

And I hope you get to, to the next place somehow.

And here is something for you.

I opened up.

I have $50, man.

I have $50.00 I think.

And, you know, I just finished the sculpture that afternoon.

Yes.

I didn't ask.

No one knew my situation, that I was broke or anything like that.

Because you don't, I'm not that person that you like.

I'm having a hard time, you know, didn't want anyone to know.

So then no one knows The, the, the place is giving me a beer, giving me a meal there and there.

So no one knows.

I'm just like everyone.

She knew, man.

She somehow felt that she hated to do this.

And then I would feel just enough to take, take, take me across.

Then I rode up the next day, man, I rode out the next day.

I go to Mozambique, burial, you know, two days, actually riding across a couple weeks, a week, a week, right across the event.

But I had enough.

I had enough, you know.

And so and.

Then.

And so ending up So what actually happened with the artwork once you've done that, you did that.

So I rolled it up.

I.

Rolled the full the full trip now.

Yeah, so I rolled it up.

I my love, I did carving.

I did so on and so on, but I stopped.

So I collected this work and then I got sick and when I when I by the time I got to when I got to Kenya, I was extremely sick.

So they wanted to fly me back.

Cindy wanted to fly me back and fly the back the bike, but I rode back all again.

I rode back all the way down, started, did the six months treatment.

I had these PCs, so it was not yet finished.

So I left them at the house.

Then I then I wrote a game all the way.

But this time I have a name.

I've done some shows.

So now I'm painting and then my work is selling.

And then I'm now I'm like, I can't wait to have the impact.

So I start Building Schools.

I start taking kids to school with that money.

So I'm selling and I'm making Building Schools and building shelters.

I'm taking keys, I'm feeding kids.

I'm feeding kids in Malawi, Mozambique, going on all across Ethiopia, build a shelter with the with the embassy, with the South African embassy.

I donate and they show me what to do all of this.

So I start Building Schools with the money.

And then then I got to Egypt.

Then the UN heard about my journey.

And then when I got back, I was the UN.

Then the UN came to approach me to be the UN ambassador for Wall Food Program and and then of course I've got opportunities and all this opened up the story.

You know, my filming we mentioned to a whole documentary, then essay BMW also was an opening about that, which never materialized.

Then of course, COVID happened.

Yeah, I went, I did the show in South Africa, in Joburg.

I did the show, which was a very good show, presented some of the the just my story with the women that I'd seen across my journey and with the UN and done this show did very well.

And then I decided to come on holiday for I was going to, I had another show in Netherlands.

So I decided to do a 22 week holiday in Zanzibar.

I'd been already in Zanzibar.

I'd passed through Zanzibar, The story about Zanzibar on my trip in Zanzibar, when I passed, I had my first night in Zanzibar.

I had a dream of being living in Zanzibar, a clear dream.

I was back in Zanzibar.

I was leaving, I was whatever so on and got back to South Africa, did the whole thing.

And then two weeks I was like, OK, let me take a trip to Zanzibar for for holidays, right?

I'm in Zanzibar.

Holidays were like first week the UN is like OK, because I had sort of not immunity as per SE, but with the UN because I was a UN ambassador so I could travel during COVID.

So I was going to the UK to to to Netherlands to do another shore.

And then it then they closed Europe and then they closed Europe.

Even I couldn't fly, you know, it was quite intense.

I couldn't fly.

They couldn't issue anything.

So I was like to my assistant, do you want to go back to SA or do we stay here man?

And we've got the canvas because I, I had my own canvas that I was taking to, to the Netherlands to do the work.

OK, so I'm like, then we've got the canvas.

I've we don't have to go, let's stay and work from here.

You know, we need it anyway.

Why not?

And then we stayed and then we stayed in Zanzibar for the year plus and then year plus still was we couldn't travel for a while.

I mean, not even, yeah, a couple months and then next, then the into the next year.

We left in South Africa in September, then stayed until December, Jan, so on and so on because also you could stay longer because of, you know, of the whole country being the whole, the world being closed.

So they didn't mind.

And then the Zanzibar's open.

The world world came to Zanzibar.

You know, we didn't have to wear a mask here.

We didn't have to wear anything for the whole time during private.

Yeah.

So everyone just started coming.

Yeah.

It was just totally different.

So everyone started coming anyway.

And I thought to myself, man, I'm not going back.

I'm not.

I'm not.

This is, this is beautiful.

This is a beautiful, it's a paradise.

You know, it's, it's really paradise.

And then, and then I was like, so I was making artwork as I'm painting, my assistant is filming.

Then we posted on Instagram.

I was selling, man, I was selling.

I had a waiting list over 20 plus I had a huge waiting list from there I was making more money than I could spend it.

So I start making a lot of money.

So of course also the the work started shooting up.

I was selling work not from 4000 anymore, but like now I started selling work for four thousand 4500 dollars and then it went up a bit.

It's just going up, going up, right.

And then it's got, I mean, it's, it's, yeah, I don't want to really say that where it is now.

Yeah, it's quite true.

We can.

We can.

All check online.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess so that's then I was then I thought I'm making this much money.

Let me just what?

Build something?

Let me build a house.

So I built a house.

Then I was like, let me build a village.

Then I built my artist resident village here.

So now I just finished the artist residence space around my house and potentially looking into to support the local arts industry here at and also support the local artist by bringing in different artists from all over the world.

And you know, and you know, from the work, just thinking about that story.

I was from starting that when I started and people telling me that like, this is what your life is going to be.

This is what's going to happen, you know, doing shows in Europe and all of that all over Europe.

And some of my collectors being, I don't know if I can mention this year, but, you know, I don't know, being in the yeah, yeah, maybe I'd rather not mention that.

But, you know, probably the richest, probably one of the richest families in the world and a couple of all of these people collecting my work.

And I am I was just a guy on the bike in the Bush, camping, being invited to, you know, all of these places to dinners, to all of these places that some that you know, some artists that never, you know, like it's just been ridiculous experiencing the sickle of maybe I don't know if they're friends that I'm very humbled by by my story.

Also, I'm humbled by just how far something can is going, or I suppose they're still going, but just seeing myself in a stadium, being avip in a place and and looking at this, that I was looking at these places when I was young on TV, you know, and I am the camera is, is is spanning to me now on on the on, you know, these.

It's just such a a beautiful thing, you know, and and and the beauty of it.

Also, no one really knowing those things that I, I haven't shared with the world and so on, But being being just still ready and and having like that, that it doesn't phase me that anymore.

But I'm, I'm able to just leave my truth.

And my truth has taken me to these people, has taken me to all these grand people that everyone looks up to the world.

And I've done it my way.

And I've done it, you know, through a motorbike.

I've done it through a tent, through my hands in terms of art painting and you know, yeah.

So it's just been, yeah, I'm, you know.

What's your, I mean, how do you approach?

What's the seat for an artwork?

You've got a blank canvas in front of you.

You have like a practice, do you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What's the process to starting a piece?

Most of the time it's actually travelling like so I usually just move around and then I've gotten so the one beauty about the the trip, the Cape Cairo that it did for me was I've gotten, I've got so raw and so sensitive to the spirit.

You know, I got so sensitive, not religiously, but spiritually.

I've got so connected to it that I don't move without feeling.

It's saying this is what we want to talk about.

This is what we, this is what it's, this is what?

Because if it's true to me, if it's true to my spirit, that means it's true to some people out there that it can really impact that way.

It, you know, I'm not painting from a point of this is what's cool.

This is what's in I've seen some people trying to imitate my my work or be Nelson, be it whoever.

I would say be inspired by it.

But listen to your spirit and also, you know, like, but, but the, the spirit has to be soft enough to listen, right?

So, and how does that get?

How does it do that?

You need to go through your, your, your journey or go through what you have to go through, right?

I'll tell you, I'll call you.

I got so in tune that I could, I could feel water underground when I was in Egypt.

Anyway, when I was crossing any place, I got so in tune with myself and my like, I'll be walking here or anyway.

And then now my whole body feels the water moving down in underground.

And, and, and then you start to realize that these streams in the air, these streams in, in nature, these streams in the, in the plants, they, you know, so I start to talk through trees in terms of my, my, my paintings.

You see, there's a lot of plants and then there's a lot of now they're just done a water series in distance time.

And I've opened the studio and listen, stand by the way, which is the yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a beautiful country.

But so nature has been nature speaks, nature speaks and I meaning we are part of it.

And the issue that we've done is sometimes is to separate ourselves from it from everything else, right?

And I'm listening and I'm trying to talk about this.

And another thing that I'm working on a new body of work, which I'm bringing to South Africa, which is my homecoming show.

I'm I, I'm listening right now.

I'm in the process of listening so I can conceptualize and and come up with this new body of work and.

And I see that you've, you finally finished the, the, the residency and.

Yeah, because.

We met, I think we met very randomly a couple years back, but since then I've kind of watched you and, and watched the what's the, the evolution and the growth of the space.

And I was actually recently you posted kind of that journey and, and when you, when you're talking about, for example, Musuatuna, Victoria Falls and, and how you shared how every part of the residence kind of reflects it.

It, it feels like you could walk in.

I could walk in and follow your journey across the continent just from the space and the way you built it and how you painted it and, and the things that happened, the experiences that happened within it.

Absolutely, absolutely in each, each, each, each room or whatever, anything that you see, the steps or any bridge or anything is dedicated to people that have played a part in in my life.

Like the room I'm in now is named after Cindy, you know, so these I'm just waiting for the plucks.

I'm going to do like little plucks that talks about this person and I'm having each person's story, each little story about each little thing in the in the space.

And for me doing that is to signify that we are not we are we are not isolated.

We, we, we are a group of people and we are, we need people around us.

We are Bantu.

We are in a sense for, for me, we are when you say a bunch, we think we are people, which is funny, right?

Like, so we are people, all of us, whether you're a Bantu or not, but you're, we're all people and you, we are not isolated.

You know, everyone plays a part in in people's lives and I want to highlight that.

And with my story, I also want to highlight that.

As I come back to essay now to to say a lot of arts can play a huge positive for this is one part that the the spirit is whispering they they will want to side of it too, right?

And there is also the whole African thing that African needs to find its own law, right.

We, you know, but anyways, this is you will hear about that as we go.

But so, yeah, yeah, yeah.

No.

Man, thank you very much for your time.

Yeah, yeah, Cujo, thank you, man.

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