Welcome to the Listen to Your Footsteps podcast.

I'm your host, Kojo Buffer.

In this podcast, I speak to Africans from across a multitude of sectors, including business, art, culture, media, design, technology, advertising and everything in between, delving into their journeys and reflecting on the lessons they have learned along the way.

It's about gaining insight into why and how they do what they do.

These conversations offer a treasure trove of takeaways and a wide range of topics, including craft, relationships, Wellness, parenting, entrepreneurship, and much more.

So my guest today is Nigerian film maker, documentary storyteller, and virtual reality innovator Kaci Benson, who uses immersive storytelling to advocate for vulnerable communities and inspire change.

He's been nominated for an Emmy in 2024 for his Disney original documentary Madhu, and won a Venice Lion for his 2019 VR film Daughters of Chibok.

Welcome My Brother.

Thanks man.

Thank you very much.

What did you want to be when you grow up?

As a kid, yeah, boy, I think my, my earliest, my earliest recollection of what I wanted to be was I wanted to be a pilot.

I wanted to fly planes.

My father used to travel a lot and he, he used to work with, at the time it was called British Caledonian Airways.

It's, it's now British Airways.

And, and so he would come back with this miniature airplanes that you could take apart.

So like the wing is like an eraser and then the other wing is like a fatner.

And it's like this little things, but you know, when you put them together, it's a it's a little plane.

And and yeah, it was just like, I was like, I want to fly these things, man.

I want to, I want to fly a plane.

But you know, kids, you know, we have these dreams, but you know, life happens and then.

I mean, at what stage did it become, did what did the future become kind of a bit more concrete?

I mean, also my because my father also used to travel a lot.

So when you talk about that, like I even remember the small Concorde, like I had the small Concorde at some stage because, because, because of their travels.

Right.

At what stage did he become more concrete?

I mean, I think that my life was just a bit of a it's, you know, so obviously you're growing up.

I think at the age of about 10-11, you know, things sort of started to go like South with the family, ultimately ending up with my parents splitting up.

I did remember that my at at some point, my sort of like desire to want to be a pilot kind of, you know, started to fade away because for me to do that, I had to be very good in the sciences, you know, math for the math, you know, physics, chemistry, biology, all that.

And, you know, yeah, by by GSS 2, I was like, I can't hack this man.

There's there's no, we have to, we have to think of, we have to, you know, aspire for more or aspire for different.

And so, so I started to think I'm like, you know what, I love to read, I love literature.

I read a lot.

I used to write a lot, you know, as a team growing up, like, you know, what maybe I could do, like international law and diplomacy or international relations or criminology, you know, But then, you know, with the family dynamics, you know, rapidly changing.

And suddenly I found myself just alone with my dad.

And then he then left.

And then I was just all alone.

And it was a case of like, what do you even do with your life?

Like these dreams kind of even happen because you got to go to university, you know, to study, but then you can't go to university.

So what do you do?

What do you do?

How do you find meaning?

How do you make meaning of all the chaos that's going on around you as a young, young person?

So I, I can't say there's this one particular time that I decided this is what's going to happen.

It was just life was just throwing all kinds of curveballs at me.

And, you know, you just adapt.

But my love for literature, my love for story never died.

I think it was the one constant that stayed through it all and, and a chance encounter with someone who took me to a film set, I guess.

So like moved the needle and it was like, OK, maybe this is where I should have been all along.

And the challenges of life and me not being able to pursue my aspiration as a pilot or as a criminologist or as a soldier or whatever it is, was all sort of like life and faith guiding me to where I eventually found myself and, and it felt like home, you know?

So what?

What books were you reading as a teenager?

I read a lot of Sherlock Holmes.

I read a lot of Sherlock Holmes.

I'm curious, what is it?

What is it about Sherlock Holmes?

I also devour chiller Combs.

I mean, I continue to be a friend, but I'm curious for you, what was it?

I think it's just the mystery and the suspense and just like, you know, being able to discover stuff before Sherlock Holmes.

I used to read a lot of I've forgotten the name now, but is this story is a is a series of books by Annie Blighton about the kids?

Like is it is it the famous vibe or the Super 6?

I mean, there's a bunch of kids who.

Yeah, I used to do.

I used to do Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys but I remember those one those one with a group of kids similar.

Yes, because I also did Agatha.

I also did Agatha Christie like I used to.

I went through Agatha Christie's full full series.

Wow, Wow.

Yeah.

The any blighting ones were like really fascinating for me, you know, and, and yes, it was, I guess mystery.

I was just, I was drawn to mystery.

I was drawn to suspense and investigation and all that kind of stuff.

And it did also spark a desire at some points, all be it for a brief moment to to study criminal or criminology, you know, because I went to like, you know, be like this kids.

I went to discover stuff.

But in a way, all of that was also escaped for me.

You know, like I said, you know, my former TV is I guess between the ages of like, maybe like between like 910 and like 1516 were just like very interesting times for me.

And so these books were an escape for me where, you know, I could be like one of these kids, you know, or I could be Sherlock Holmes assistant.

I could, I could be Sherlock Holmes himself.

I could go out there and, and be something and do something.

Yeah.

So.

And I see you studied what's a software engineering and information information.

Systems management.

Was that also just opportunity or was it a bit more deliberate?

Yeah, no, it was opportunity.

I think so I I've been blessed over the years to have been, we met several people who who've met me at several points in my life and just like take an interest in me and and want to support me.

And I remember then as I was what, maybe 1819, can't remember, and I met this lady and she was just just took an interest in me and my, my younger brother and said, Hey, you know, I see you guys just, you know, roaming around, what do you want to do?

And I'm like, you know what, I would love to go to computer school.

And she was like, OK, go, go, go do your research, find something and I'll pay.

And I remember going and I, I, I went and I looked for like the absolute best computer school in the city.

And I remember I was, I was, it was like 5 or 6 of us were staying in church.

We're living in church because we didn't have anywhere to stay.

And I showed it to the other guys.

I'm like, yeah, this is, this is the school.

I'm going to show her to pay for me.

And they were like, dude, you're nuts, man.

This lady's just trying to help you, like look for something affordable.

I was like, look, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to just do, do the best.

And and they were like, OK, we'll see what happens.

And I remember presenting it to her and she was like, OK, this is what you want to do.

I said, yes, OK, I'll pay for you, you go.

And everyone was shocked, but I went into it all my hearts I did.

And it was, it was also very eye opening from because that was also my first introduction to the world of computers.

And so I really became very computer savvy and, you know, it's very interesting life and the way things happen.

And I think that's sort of like ability to embrace whatever comes your way.

Because that computer knowledge that I had came in very handy when I wanted to go into editing because, you know, because then I could sit down, I, I could cut my stuff, you know, I did a lot of programming and, and, and so they also helped me with logic, you know, like, and even like building story blocks and figuring out stuff, you know, because when you're doing programming, you're, you're so like, you know, there are pros and cons.

You're weighing stuff, you know, you're constantly, it's a, it's a constant conversation between you and the software, you know, because the channel creates a solution.

And so in a way, I feel like all of that helped in its own way as I got along in life and and started to explore, you know, storytelling as you know, I don't want to call it a job, but, you know, as my passion and all calling people call it that.

Did you work once you, you were done with with the kind of IT and the software development stuff?

I mean, I mean, you went and studied it and you, you gained all of these things and I'm just curious about OK, now you're.

Done.

What did I do right?

Like now you, well, immediately kind of you come out of that like you've been given this opportunity, somebody has covered that cost and you come out of it and you're at another not necessarily crossroads, but you're kind of at the start of another path.

I'm curious, just when you like, when you're.

It's like I'm done with school, now what?

Right.

I mean, so I finished it.

I remember that I was, you know, wild there.

I really put my heart into it, like I said.

And you know, I think I I was kind of good at it.

So I was also getting a lot of like side gigs, you know, because again, it's it's like it was like an expensive school.

So I was in touch with like, you know, like young people and kids from like, you know, more privileged homes who really couldn't care about why they were there.

And so this sort of like Co opted me to like becoming this sort of like teacher, you know, so so they would, they would, they would pay me, you know, to teach.

So that in itself was like a side hustle.

I was making some extra change.

And then after everything, I think the school kind of retained me for a while so that I could also like, so I became like, what's it called now?

These guys that assists the main lecturers or the main teachers, right.

Like a teaching assistant.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

So I was, you know, it's a little change here and there, but I, I, as much as I liked it, my heart wasn't in it, you know, and I think around the same time, I was also sort of like getting involved into like film, you know, I started to hang out with these film makers.

You know, the lady who paid the fees wasn't really pleased with the fact that I wasn't really pursuing this like, you know, like, after all, you know, but I guess, you know, you sort of like make this commitment that don't worry, you know, I'm regardless, this isn't going to be a waste.

You know, it will be put to use in some way.

But from early on, for the longest time, I never felt that I could fit into a nine to five environment.

I think I knew that for a long time.

Even going to church, you know, I used to be in the choir.

You'd be required to, you know, wear your pants and wear your shirt and tuck it in.

I couldn't do all of that.

It was just, it was tough for me, You know, it was hard for me to comb my hair.

I just found these things.

So I was like, how am I going to survive in an environment where I'm required to do this everyday, Monday to Friday?

I'm going to freak out, man.

I need something with a little bit more freedom.

So, yeah, you know, so I never really practice it in that sense.

But, you know, I, I think I made a little something from it at the time and then, you know, moved on.

I've done.

I think it's also just, I guess with hindsight, you know, 1 recognizes the value of, of the different experiences.

And, and I think also today it's easier to see to, to plot the connections, right.

So I mean, you're, you're talking about a time when it was like, OK, you go and study this and you come out and do that.

Whereas now we're living.

I think there's it's, it's, it's a lot grayer.

There's a lot more blurred lines in, in terms of recognizing that actually you can do these different things and end up in a totally, totally different space.

But each one of the things that you've done along the way actually contributes and has contributed to you being where you are today and being able to take advantage of of the opportunities or your interests or exploring your curiosity and creativity today.

Exactly, exactly.

I think that, you know, if we take it all as life's experiences, you know, and those experiences are all like building blocks to where, you know, you ultimately end up being right, then you begin to see things differently.

You know, like you said, those days of black and whites, I think they're done.

I think they're over.

The world has changed so much that, I mean, you could you could study psychology and end up in a totally different place, you know?

So, but the question is whatever knowledge that you end up acquiring on your life's journey, right?

How do you use that to get to the next level?

You know, how, how do you sort of like soak in all that experience, soak in all that knowledge because you know that someday it's going to come in handy.

As a documentary filmmaker, it's very interesting.

I say to my guys, I'm like, dude, man, I think that one of the most beautiful things, one of the most beautiful jobs, you know, about, you know, it's been a documentary filmmaker.

And one of the best things about being a doc filmmaker is that, you know, you are constantly thrown into this different places and different situations.

You know, so I've worked on an oil rig, you know, I've worked in a in a war zone, I've worked in, in a pharmaceutical, you know, like I've done different kinds of projects.

And in doing those projects, you know, you, you have a lot of risk.

So, yeah, you know, you're, you're able to have these different experiences and, you know, because you do all that research and stuff, it immerses you in all these different places, right?

And, and you come away with a lot of, with a lot of knowledge about just random stuff, you know, so I can talk about liquefied natural gas right now in the same breath that I'm talking about climate change, in the same breath that I'm talking about, you know, the impact of war and insurgency on the most vulnerable.

And it's, it's it's just, yeah.

And all of these are experiences that I'm just soaking in, you know, so maybe tomorrow I end up saying, hey, you know what someone says, oh, you know, I decide, you know what, I'm done with this filmmaking thing.

I want to go into climate change advocacy.

The experience that I've gotten, you know, telling these stories in the in the climate change space then come in handy, right?

So I feel like with life, just embrace, embrace the experiences, soak it all in because you never can tell, you know, when it's going to come in handy for you.

Yeah.

And I'm a big, so I'm a big proponent of the idea of, of curiosity and the power of curiosity, regardless of what it is that you do.

Just kind of curiosity as a tool to navigate life and how it and how it kind of lays the foundation for what you're talking about.

Because you could be a filmmaker who's going into these different spaces and you're just engaging with the surface of it.

But when you're, when you're curious, you tend to, you know, you go down rabbit holes, you go down random, you know, because I've had the same, I've had a kind of similar life experience where I've ended up in different spaces.

And because I'm in different spaces, you have to learn about the nuances of each space that you're engaging with.

And, and so that's why I say, yeah, I'm I've always been a big proponent of this idea of curiosity as a tool for navigating life.

I, I think that without curiosity, you don't experience all that life has got to give and you don't sort of like make the most of your journey here.

You know, I think curiosity is curiosity is what brought us here, man.

Yeah, that's true, You know, Yeah.

Most of the things that we enjoy today, you know, that has moved mankind forward, has come from a place of curiosity.

We're constantly seeking, we're constantly searching.

And.

And that's one thing that I feel that we all should actively try to and develop as individuals, you know, that sense of curiosity, we should nurture it.

You know, whether it's in ourselves, whether it's in our kids, you know, in the next generation, we have to nurture it.

We must always ask those questions, constantly seek and constantly probe.

And especially for us on the continent as Africans, you know, who live on the continent and with all the challenges that we have and we're constantly figuring out ways to, to, to make our, our condition better.

I think curiosity will play an important role in saying, how do we find the answers to the questions that we keep asking, you know, about ourselves, about who we are and who we can be.

So I'm with you 100% on that.

That curiosity is, you know, I mean, I think that that's probably one of the most important things that we should have.

I think I'm a very curious person.

I'm, I'm curious, I'm curious about the things that I want to be curious about.

I mean, there are other things I'm like, you know what, it's fine.

You know, let it be as it is.

But but, yeah, when when I, when I find something that I'm very interested in wanting to know more about, I like people, you know, I don't let go until I I figure it out.

Yeah.

What was your first foray into filmmaking?

Can I remember?

I mean, like I said, you know, I'm roaming the streets trying to figure out what to do with my life.

This is like.

Maybe a year or two after my mom had passed and I was just trying to figure out like what what happens now?

What what happens now?

And a friend of mine took me to a film set.

So this was the very early days of Nollywood in Nigeria.

And he took me to a film set.

And there was this young guy, maybe in his mid 20s and he was a director on set.

And I remember like, you know, just watching him and just seeing how things were just evolving on set and how how so much in control he was.

And it was just so beautiful to watch.

You know, I said to myself, I mean, he makes this thing look easy, man, You know, You know, maybe I should give this a shot.

Maybe I should give this a shot, you know, So I kept going back every day.

I kept going back to set every other day, you know, And that's really how I just sort of like got into it.

And then I, I was introduced to some older guys who used to run like a film studio, film collective.

So I'd go there.

I was the youngest, you know, I'd go, I'd just hang around, just sit at the back and listen to this older guys talk about film.

You know, one of the first films that they made me watch was Amistad, you know, and I remember like so pulled in and drowning by just like what I was seeing.

But what was more interesting for me beyond the film was the conversations that they were having and how they would really break it down and talk about it.

And I think as a young as a young boy, then that was very, very instructive for me because these guys weren't just watching film just to consume.

They were analyzing film, you know, and, and so that instilled him.

So, you know, you had a film maker.

There was an editor.

One of their friends was a lawyer.

So yeah, it was like a really intellectual discourse that they were having about film.

And I'm sitting in the back.

I'm the guy who's running errands for them, but they would allow me to sit in the back and just listen.

That did a lot for me.

And then, you know, I decided one day I had a few friends who were singing, you know, in my church.

And I said, you know what?

Don't you guys think you need a music video?

And, and they said, they said, yeah, you know, can you hear me?

Yeah, I can hear you.

So I'd lost you for a second.

They put you back.

Yeah, that's right.

So they said, hey, don't, don't.

I said, don't you guys think you need a music video?

You know, and, and they said, yeah, yeah, I mean, we, we could do with a music video, but OK, cool.

Let's let's go make a music video.

I, I'll, I'll do it for you.

So that's really how, you know, my one of my first attempts.

I mean, it wasn't a very successful attempt, you know, but it was an attempt and and that's really how it started.

You know, with these things, especially when you start off like gorilla style, independent style, you didn't go to film school, you know, you can't really pick that moment in that sense.

You just sort of like it's just a journey.

You take that first step and then the second step and then the third step.

I mean, there are milestones along the way that you remember that are very clear to you, right?

But, you know, I can't really say this is the definitive moment that I got into film in that sense.

I remember the first day I walked on the film sets.

You know, I walked into a film set, which I just told you about.

You know, I remember, I remember setting projects that I've done that I could call like the tipping points or like, you know, pivot to a moments.

Well, yeah, it's with most things that I do is just a journey.

Just get on that journey.

Just that.

Just that you have no clue where you're going, but you're convinced in your heart that this is the path that you should be on.

And you know you.

You find it.

You find it as you go along.

How did you end up studying?

I mean, I believe you went to the UK to study a bit film making.

Yes, yes.

So I mean, it was a case of making money, saving money and keeping the dream alive.

So what's a lot of people don't know is that I had a, albeit very brief singing career.

OK.

Yes, so I used to be a part of a gospel boy group, you know, and, and you know, we were fortunate at the time to, to go to the UK where we went to the UK or another like a small tour, going to like churches and singing, all that kind of stuff.

But what that presented for me was an opportunity to explore like film schools that I could go to.

And so I remember that when we're done and we're all giving like, you know, whatever little money that we're giving, everyone came back home.

Well, I mean, I didn't, I didn't blow my money.

I just kept it saved up a little more, got back on a plane, went back to the UK and paid for a course so that I could really just sort of like begin to study formally this thing that I was already falling in love with.

And I think that was a great experience for me because he also opened my eyes to like just beyond the informal, right?

What you just pick on the streets and what you pick while you're working.

This was more so like structured and, and yeah, so that's, that's, that's, that's really how that started.

And it was a great experience.

And so I decided, you know what?

I'm going to do more of this.

So the more, the more money I made, you know, or the more income I earned making films, corporate videos, whatever it is, the more I plowed it into myself.

I would always hang out.

There's a there's a guy who told me something he said, look, do not ever be afraid to invest in yourself.

No amount of money is too big to invest in yourself.

And that piece of advice stayed with me.

So it doesn't matter whether I would always like put in that money, go get some more training, go to it, go do a short course, go buy that piece of equipment, whatever it is.

I consider that investment in myself an investment for tomorrow.

Yeah.

Why documentary?

I mean, you're talking about the early days, the early days of of of Nollywood.

Yeah, actually there's two parts.

There's two parts to my question because I was thinking about this this morning.

So just kind of wide documentary.

And does the perception or the stereotypes around Nollywood have an impact on how you're perceived?

Because it's also, it's a very one-dimensional, it's a very one-dimensional perspective, right?

It's a very one-dimensional stereotype, like it's, yeah, not only wood makes films, but it's these kind of films and this type of TV and it's low quality and inverted commas, etcetera, etcetera, which discounts the entire, this should be the the entire segment that you fall with it.

Right, right.

OK, so, so let's see how we can take take take this question now.

So the first question is why?

Why documentaries?

Prior to making docs, all I had been doing was I was in everything else, you know, music videos, wedding videos, birthdays, whatever came my way, I'll just do it.

It was me just so like cutting my teeth in this thing.

But the one thing that was really popular at the time was music videos.

It was the one easy way to because remember again, by the late 90s, early 2000s, those were the early days of Afro beats as well, and it was getting big the.

P ^2 etcetera, like that area.

Exactly, exactly.

You know, the two faces.

So it was getting big.

So there was also a lot of demand for music videos.

It was cool, it was fun.

And the music video guys were actually the, the, the quality of their work was looking way better than than than the, the Nollywood films.

You know, it was glossy.

It was all that and I wanted to be in that space.

It was cool, it was great.

Well, I mean, I wasn't getting a lot of gigs, you know, for some reason.

And then I remember that I got AI then got a Commission to do a series of I guess like ATV series, it was called Leadership and lifestyle.

And basically my brief was to interview successful Nigerians and trace their grasp to grace stories.

And I started it.

And you know, when I started it, that's when I realized how much I needed inspiration for my own life.

Because I'm sitting down and I'm listening to this man and this women talk about their stories.

And I'm getting so inspired.

And I'm saying to myself, this is what I've needed all my life.

This is what I've wanted all my life.

You know, sometimes you don't know what you need or you don't know what you've been looking for until you saw like just stumbling and like, this is what I've been looking for all my life.

And I felt I, I, you know, again, remember, I'm this young guy who's lost his mom, whose dad is not in the picture, who's just trying to go through life and just figure shit out, you know?

And now you're listening to this man and this woman.

And they're just saying this things that you're like, wow, I wish I knew this five years ago.

I wish I knew this 10 years ago.

But now that I know it, I can apply it to my life.

And I'd also think.

That, I said to myself.

I'd also think that you're seeing people who outwardly seem very different from you, but you find that their journeys are similar to yours.

Very similar, very similar, right?

They they were not born rich, you know, they also have their fair share of struggles.

But look at where they are.

And I said, this is where I want to be.

So I'm saying to myself, if I'm this inspired by their stories, how many more people out there need to be inspired by these stories?

I said to myself, you know what, maybe this is the space that I want to play in because these are simple human stories, but they carry a lot of weight, you know, you know, I mean, sometimes I make a music video and the guy is saying, oh, you know, my face needs to look more glossy.

You know, the, the, the, the girls in the video don't look good.

I want to, you know, I make a wedding video and the bride is saying, oh, there's some, you know, spots on my face.

How do we get rid of the sports?

Like, you know, I mean, like spots are on your face.

I mean, I don't understand, but now I'm making this real, I'm making this real.

I'm telling this real, this real human stories.

And no one is worried about spots on their faces.

No one is worried about the aesthetics.

In that sense, we're all, we're all connected by the power of the story.

Like this is where I want to be.

I can focus on what's more important, the deeper thing.

That's really how I got into documentaries, you know, And I remember telling my friends then like, you know what?

I'm done with this music video business.

I'm done with wedding videos.

I'm done with all these things.

I want to make dogs.

First question was, OK, what are dogs?

I'm like, I'm like, you know, I think dogs are like, you know, real stories of real people, you know, going through stuff and they can tell you their stories.

And everyone is like, OK, OK, OK, so so how do you make money from this thing?

Like, you know, where are you going to sell it?

Who's going to watch it?

Like, And I was like, I remember saying to myself or saying to them, I said, you know what, guys, that's a fair question.

And I have no clue.

I don't know what the answer is, but it's a place where I feel like I belong.

And I think that my Peace of Mind and my sense of purpose is very important for me.

So I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to test this out.

I'm going to try it out for a minute, OK, Just, you know, have some faith in me.

Let's try it out.

If it doesn't work, there's always a music video that we can make.

There's always a wedding video that we can shoot.

There's always something else that we can do.

Well, let's try this out.

And I haven't looked back since then.

I haven't looked back since then.

It's been an amazing journey.

What is the first step?

So the first step, yeah, I mean, the, the, the, the first step was just, you know, find that story that inspires you.

And so I remember that there was this.

So what I what I would do then was I would, I would actually go out and look for a story that inspired me.

So I remember one time my friend was making a music video in an art gallery that was owned by this woman, you know, like who had built this massive art gallery in Lagos.

And while they were shooting the music video, I was just fascinated by the arts.

And then I met the woman and she was like this charismatic figure.

Like, dude, if you meet this woman, her name is Nikki or Kundai Davis.

Like, she's like, she's like something to behold, even the way she dresses and carries herself.

And I remember walking up to her and I said, Mama, I love you.

I love the way you look.

I love what you've done here.

Can I tell your story?

And she said, oh, yeah, by all means.

And that's it.

So I'll go around looking for these stories, you know, and just tell them and put them on my Vimeo page.

And then slowly, you know, the tide began to turn where it was now people saying to me, hey, can you come help us tell the story?

Can you come help us tell the story?

Or I have this project that I'm working on, you know, but then, you know, with docs is also kind of tough because, yes, you are getting that personal fulfilment and satisfaction, but there's not really a commercial upside to it, you know.

And, and so that sort of like took me down the path of now telling corporate stories, you know, which is kind of like an interesting place where a lot of documentary film makers, especially in Nigeria, I can speak for Nigeria, fall into where, you know, you just have to keep the lights on.

You got to put bread on the table.

And so for you to do that, you end up making a lot of corporate films, you know, which, yes, they're great, but you know, how much creative control do you really have, you know, when you're telling those kind of stories?

But you got to do it so that you can keep doing the things that you want to do.

No, look, I'm, I'm a big believer in this idea of, of like, I call myself a working writer.

It's, I do a lot of writing.

I shifted to writing for corporate and writing for business.

And, and, and that enables me, you know, the creative spaces.

When you come from the creative spaces, some people view that as selling out of some form or they view it as less than.

Whereas for me it's, it's, you know, to live the life that I want to live and to do the things that I want to do, I need to take into consideration, I want to keep the lights on, food on the table.

I have a family to feed.

I also like, I want to experience and enjoy life.

And I do not see it as negative that if I'm going to do that, I'm going to do this work.

The work doesn't define me as a human being.

It's just an extent.

It's a means to an end.

Yeah.

Like, I mean, I was joking with the guy, the guys earlier.

Like, I couldn't have this podcast if I didn't have certain work that I was doing.

It's that work that ensures that I can have a podcast.

Without that work I would not have this.

Exactly, exactly.

And, and you see, The thing is that they, they, they sort of complement each other because slowly as you, it, first of all, you have to be very focused and not get carried away with the corporate gigs, understanding that the corporate gigs are helping you to achieve a bigger purpose, right?

But you see, as you continue to pursue your personal passions and your personal projects and, and make the best of them, you will get to a point where you start to do corporate gigs on your terms.

And that's the sweet spot.

Yeah.

You know, where you're able to say, yes, I will work with you to tell your story, but this is how we're going to tell it.

And because you've already built a reputation and you're respected people then listen.

And they say, well, OK, you know what?

He probably knows what he's talking about, you know, so we will listen to him.

And that's a great place because I think that the the frustrating thing for creatives, you know, people like you and I who want to do our projects, what circumstance and the reality of life compels us to do.

These are other kind of jobs is that loss of control, that loss of creative control.

You have to give that up, you know, because you're dealing with the corporate, you know, and you know, whatever with the clients and they say this is how we want it to be.

This is how it must be.

And that can be a bit frustrating, but if you come to the point where you can say, hey, look, you know what, I hear you.

I hear your point of view and it's great.

I will incorporate it.

But in terms of my creative vision, this is how I see this playing out.

And they're able to say, you know what, that sounds great, go ahead and do it your way.

We respect, you know, I think that that's like a really great place to be.

I think also the reverse is The reverse is you approach your own project with the same level of professionalism and understanding that, you know, understanding that, you know, deadlines are necessary and, and being able to manage resources is necessary because with a corporate client, there's we're paying you X amount and we want it within this period.

And you have to manage everything around that.

And it's being able to take those same principles and go, OK, this personal project that I'm doing, that I'm doing just because I like doing things, just because I've always wanted to do them.

But it still needs, you know, without a deadline, you'll just end up procrastinating and doing it for years.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.

I mean, there's a certain level of discipline and process, like you said, an order structure that comes with working with the guy who's paying the bills and says he wants to buy so and so time and, and you have to your ability to apply that same level of discipline to your projects.

It's what really, you know, could be the deciding factor between success and failure.

So again, back to the same thing about every experience that you get.

How do you soak it in and use it as a building block on your life's journey?

You know, and, and realizing that it's happening for a purpose, it's happening for a reason.

And you have to figure out what is, what is the lesson to be learned here?

You know, I think that that's really important.

But I mean, you know, you and I, you know, and I, I think, you know, many other creatives out there would just love a perfect world where we can just do only what we want to do and, and, and, and be able to make a living off of that.

But it sometimes doesn't happen.

A lot of times doesn't happen that way.

So you got to be able to strike that balance.

I mean, with regards to perception, which was the second question you asked about Hollywood and all of that.

I mean, there's not a, we don't even have a great documentary industry here.

So in some ways I kind of feel like I'm kind of, I don't know, perceived sort of like an, like an outsider, like, you know, you don't really, you don't really belong here.

Like who are you?

You know, what, what's, what exactly do you do?

Which is very interesting, but it's fine because I think that we're still doing great work.

By the way, we actually won the Emmy.

Congratulations.

Yeah.

Which is, you know, Nigeria's first Emmy winning production.

And it's a documentary.

So kudos to all the documentary film makers out there who are slogging it out.

But you know, when you embrace, when you embrace what life throws at you, when you embrace the process, it's interesting how things can just fall into place.

You know, and you're making a difference.

You're doing what you want to do.

You might not be getting the quote UN quote mainstream recognition in that sense, but you're happy where you are, you're happy doing what you're doing.

And that's enough, you know, and for me, that's enough.

Like, you know, whether I'm classified as Nollywood or not, outsider or insider, I really don't care.

I just want to tell stories that make a difference and can amplify voices and can bring, you know, real change to communities and, and, and that's the big win for me.

That's how I win.

I.

Mean there's a value, there's a value in and a beauty in finding your lane, right?

Exactly.

Like, this is my lane.

I'm good in this lane.

I don't need anything else.

Yeah.

And just kind of embracing that and experiencing it to its fullest.

I've been asked many times by people at home and abroad, when are you going to make a fiction film?

When are you going to make a narrative film?

And, and I keep saying, you know what, maybe I will someday, but not today.

I'm still going to be telling this real stories, making these docs.

And I'm happy where I am.

You know, I don't feel any pressure to go make a narrative.

If the time comes, it will feel very natural.

It will be very organic.

But I'm not going to succumb to the pressure.

Yeah, you know, I will stay in my lane, you know, and and and and I'm happy right here.

Explain the immersive virtual reality, because I mean, that's that that's kind of placed, it's placed around your work, but explain what it is.

Well, I mean, so have you ever experienced virtual reality before?

Yes, I am The immersive experience.

Yeah.

So I mean, I, I think basically it's just like, you know, maybe he's explaining this.

It's like, how do you create this experience that is able to transport people to places that they would otherwise not be able to get access?

I think that for me is the power of immersive experiences.

I remember 2018, I get a call from a client who is, you know, so I, I, I love and respect so much.

And she said to me, hey, look, I want to make a 360 video of one of my projects.

I've been working around for a long time and I said, OK, what's a 360 video?

She says, well, I mean, go figure it out.

So she and I have this really weird interesting conversations where she just drops it on me and then tells me.

So I'm going around, I'm asking questions, I go on the Internet, I see the videos.

I'm like, OK, this looks interesting.

I don't know what kind of camera they used to make this.

I don't even know what this is.

So I go back to her like, OK, look, I found it.

It looks cool.

But I don't, I don't do 360.

I can't do that.

I don't even know what I don't.

And she's like, look, I trust you.

I've worked with you.

I want you to be the one to do it.

So just, I don't know how this is going to play out, but I want you at the center of it.

So I'm like, what?

What's what in the world is going on here?

Yeah, so.

But I remember she said something to me as I was walking out of the room.

She said, hey, I want you to do this.

It will change your game.

I'm like, OK, fine.

So I go do some more research.

There's no one doing it in Nigeria, but the closest place I could get it done was in the United States.

I still had a valid US visa then.

So remember what I said earlier about not being afraid to invest in yourself.

So I said, you know what, I'm going to pay for the course to learn it, and I'm going to buy the camera.

And meanwhile, all this while, I had never won a headset before.

All I was doing was watching 360 videos on YouTube, and I was fascinated with the fact that I could use my mouse to spin 360.

OK, this looks interesting.

It's a cool gimmick.

So I get on the plane, I clear out my account.

I get on a plane, I fly out to the States, to Chicago to go do the training, and then that's the first time they put a headset.

They give me a headset to watch something, an immersive experience.

And it's a Coldplay concert, by the way.

I love Coldplay.

So I'm wearing this headsets.

I'm seeing Coldplay right in front of me and the crowd all around me.

It's like it's a goosebump moment, man.

But in that moment, I said to myself, wow, what a tool for storytelling.

Yeah.

So because remember, I've been making these films, you know, in like, you know, war-torn areas, war-torn zones and I go to these places and I make the regular films.

I bring it back.

But somehow I feel like I want people to experience what I just experienced.

I'm like, this is the perfect equipment.

I forgot about my clients projects.

I get back to Nigeria and I kid you not, the first film I make is I go back to the IDP camp.

So I come for internally displaced persons and I make this short film about this little boy who has PTSD and is living in an IDP camp, what really wants to go to school.

And that becomes Nigeria's first ever immersive film, You know, goes to Cairo, plays at the Belen Alley and all of that.

It was when I had done finished with the film that I remembered why I actually went to Chicago in the 1st place because the client says to me, hey, where's my, where's my video?

I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.

We're going to make it next week.

So we end up making the film and, you know, she's really happy with it and all of that.

And then in 20, late 2018, I didn't make Daughters of Chibok because I wanted to.

I had always wanted to go to Chibok and tell the story of this place and what happened there.

You know, and you know, we made the film.

It was, it was, it was a great experience because for me it was about how do I take people to Chibok?

Chibok is a place that is in the northeast is high risk.

People can't go there.

Everyone is scared to go there.

And I was like, if I'm able to go to this place and tell the story, how do I bring people here since nobody wants to come here, how do I take Chibok to them?

And using the, the VR as a tool or as a medium seemed like it was a no brainer.

And I'm, I'm glad that we, we actually, you know, used that because I had the option of using my regular camera to tell that story or the VR camera.

We chose to go with the VR camera and you know, the rest as, as they say, you know, is history.

But what's more important for me is how do you use these things?

Not just, you know, for empathy sake, but how do you use it as a tool to move people from empathy to action?

You know, which is sort of like where my work, you know, the bulk of my work sort of like intersex right now, where you can say, hey, look, you know, how do we use film or story for social impact, you know?

Well, yeah, that's really how I got into how I got into VR.

And, you know, we've done a few more things since then.

You know, I'll always say that maybe not every story, you know, should be told using that medium.

Yeah.

But I'm happy that I I play in both worlds.

And you know, who knows, maybe, maybe my next film will be ABR film.

I can't say.

I think, I mean, I think what you, you talked about is really important in terms of that going from empathy to action because it feels like the way the world is today and has been for some time.

It's, it's easy for most of us.

It's easy to sympathize.

It's, it's easier to see and recognize suffering, somebody else's suffering.

But the, The thing is, OK, how do, how do I go like as an individual, how do I go from, yes, I, I do empathize.

I do feel they're suffering.

I do feel it's a tragedy to OK, this is what I'm going to do.

I have a small it may be.

And I think that's, I mean, when you say that's your work, that's that feels like the real work and that feels like the hardest work.

So, you know, for, for some time now, I've been trying to distinguish between passion and purpose.

And you know, I'm getting to that point where I'm feeling like storytelling is my passion, making dogs.

I'm passionate about these stories.

But in terms of purpose, my purpose, I think it's to use story for change.

And there's a distinction, you know, when you're concerned about how, you know, the human condition, you know, wherever it's happening and you desire to see change in this places, I think that that is, you know, and, and you're, you're very, very concerned about like, how do you, how can you sort of like move the needle?

You know, how can you use storytelling to move the needle?

And then you become very intentional about it.

You know, that's when things get very, very interesting.

Like you said.

Yeah, it's very easy to empathize.

It doesn't really take much, you know?

Oh, wow.

You know, but I, I kept asking myself like, but that doesn't change anything.

That doesn't change anything, you know?

And so increasingly with the work that I do, even from conceptualization and when we start to film, we start to ask ourselves, where are the opportunities for true change here and how can we intentionally design, whether it's strategies or campaigns, you know, around this film, you know, to bring change.

So the film is no longer an end in itself.

It's a means to an end.

Whereas.

It's built into, like it's, it's, it's more built into there's, there's a craft of making film, but then there's the context of that film within the broader social issues.

Exactly, exactly.

So like my my latest film is called Mothers of Chibok.

It's a follow up to the daughters of Chibok, where I I followed 4 mothers over, you know, over three years, 2 1/2 years.

And basically these women are so, so for me, you know, the, the Chibok story, we know about the Chibok story because of what happened.

These women sent their kids to school, their daughters, their daughters were kidnapped and, and all of that both at the core of it is their desire for education, right?

So I then started to investigate.

So how, how do they send their kids to school?

Well, they're all farmers.

And so, you know, they plant seeds, they harvest it, they sell it, they send their kids to school.

And I decided, you know what, I'm going to follow this women over the course of a farming cycle from when the seeds go into the ground to when the harvest comes out.

And that will be my story.

And so that's what we did.

But you see, while doing that, we were also confronted with the challenges that these women face as farmers.

And So what we then did was that towards the end of production, as we started post production and all of that, we started to design A campaign.

How can we help this women improve their farming practices so that they can earn more?

Because we know that if they're able to earn more, they will be able to do more for their kids.

We need to remember that since this thing happened in 2014, this incident happened in 2014, the women have not stopped sending their kids to school.

So in their own way, they are silently fighting the terrorists.

Boko Haram.

Boko Haram is the name of the terrorist group that's that attacked them.

Boko Haram means Western education is forbidden.

That's what it means.

Yet these women have not stopped sending their kids to school.

So how do we help them to keep the fight?

That, for me, has given the film purpose.

Yeah.

So even when, you know, when people watch it and say, oh, wow, is visually stunning, is aesthetically beautiful, all that stuff.

And we're so inspired by these women.

Fantastic.

What happens next?

What happens next?

And that's what we're, that's what we're doing.

So, so there's an intentionality to every film that we, we, we try to make now it's what are we, what are we trying to solve with this?

You know what, what, what issues are we trying to address with this?

How can we say that we made this film and these are the things that we've accomplished with this film.

These are the lives that have been impacted.

These are the communities that have been affected positively.

You know, and I think that that's, that's, that's a sweet place to be in, you know, because now, you know, when you're thinking about a film, you're thinking about how can I use it to drive change?

There was something that Fela Kuti said many years ago about music.

And it was like, look, within the African context, we have so many issues.

We have so many challenges.

I'm making music to drive change.

That's that's the purpose of my my music is a weapon for change.

And that that really resonated with me, you know, because we live on a continent where as much as there are so many things to be happy about and hopeful about and celebrate, there are also so many things that we need to confront and.

There's so many challenges, there's so much work to be done.

There's still exactly.

Exactly.

And so as a creative, what is my role in all of this?

What is my purpose in all of this?

What is my responsibility in all of this?

And I think that with film, with my films, I think I can contribute my quota to.

Yeah, just seeing how much change I can inspire.

I know you have.

Children empathy.

Yeah, I know you have children.

How has?

How is your your upbringing, the challenges and then your work today impacted how you are as a father?

What kind of father would you say you are to begin with?

Oh, boy.

I think that's a question that, you know, my kids would probably be able to answer better.

I mean, I try to be present as a dad.

I try to be very present.

My kids aren't, at least for now, aren't as interested in what I do as I would have loved.

My daughter loves, loves, loves everything I do.

I mean, she loves her dad.

So I mean, whatever she's, she's, she's like the biggest cheerleader.

But I, I, you know, with my own life experiences and what I've been through and just sort of like how life has shaped where I am today.

I think one of the, one of the things that I've, that I've learned and I'm, I'm teaching them is look, whatever it is that you find that you're passionate about, that you love, I will support you.

OK.

You know, I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be the, the guy who decides what you want to be.

If you say you want to be an artist, I'm fine with it.

I'll support you.

You want to be a ballerina, I'm fine with it.

I'll support you.

We'll have conversations with the pros and the cons.

I'll share my perspective, but if it is what you love, I'll support you.

I'll do my best.

So I think that that that element of support for your dreams is something that was missing in my life or that I missed.

And, and that's the one thing that I think I can give my kids, you know, support and as much as possible be present, you know, so I, I tend to travel a lot when I do travel, but when I'm home, I, you know, try to be home, try to hang just this this past weekend, you know, there's a, we had a little like a little mini vacation of sorts.

So I got to play basketball with the kids, with the boys.

I was properly walloped.

At some stage that happens at some stage, At some stage you stop.

You stop trying those things with your kids.

Yeah, man, like 10 minutes in and I was panting out like, guys, just, you know, I'll sit and watch you guys.

I'm proud of you.

Do your thing, you know?

So we hung out, you know, went out, tried different things and all of that because they're, they're going to be going back to school in a couple of weeks.

So, but yeah, try to be present, try to support.

I mean, what, what more can I say?

You know, I encourage them to read, read as much as you can, you know, read everything, consume stuff.

You know, it's, it's important.

Don't get too sucked into social media as much, you know, be thankful, be grateful, be humble, be respectful and, and, and be content.

I think that contentment is something that we don't talk enough about and, and it, it drives us as people to sometimes to the extreme, you know, in, in that search for more and, and, and, and, and discontent should not be confused with curiosity that we talked about in the beginning, You know, where you know, where your career is to discover more and find more.

That's good.

But, you know, just, there's also something about contentment and just being happy with what you have.

It doesn't mean that your complacence.

It just means that, you know, you know what, what's enough.

And whatever you have at any point in time, you're happy, you're grateful for it.

You will actually desire for more.

So.

So, yeah, I think those are the values that I, I try to instill.

And I don't know you would.

Hopefully someday you'll meet them and maybe you can ask them.

But may I ask, ask that question despite, although I have the belief that I will only know how successful I was as a father when my children are grown up and living their lives and when they can stand and say, you know, as a 40 year old, do you know what I'm I'm doing?

All right, so, and my father contributed to this, which is, which is, which is such a weird.

It's like I considered my main job but it's it's it's such a weird KPI to have right where it's only going to be realized and I may not even be here still.

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

You know, which is why you just do the best that you can.

You just do the best that you can.

You have those conversations.

Never forget to remind them that you love them.

I think I'm.

I think my kids think I'm.

I'm.

I'm sometimes too strict.

Well, we all thought the same of our parents at some point.

But like you said, yeah, it's things like this.

Only time tells.

Only time.

Only time would tell.

They're saying things that my dad did that looking back now, I'm like, you know, I'm thankful that he did them because it in some way shaped who I am today.

You know, whether it's my love for literature, you know, my just sort of like my approach to work and stuff.

But time will tell.

Let's let's revisit this 30 years from now.

And so what's exciting you right now in general?

What's exciting me right now in general, yeah.

Anything.

Everything.

I think the what excites me, it's also what terrifies me, and it's the opportunity to do more impactful work, the opportunity to just like, just do more, you know, the kind of stories that I want to tell.

I'm seeing myself not just as a Nigerian filmmaker, but as an African filmmaker.

I want to contribute to the conversations on the continents.

You know, I've been to SA quite a few times.

I love the country, you know, I love Cape Town, you know, I want to go to more places on the continents.

I want to just like, immerse myself in this different cultures across Africa.

I feel like Africa is on the cusp of something, something big, something huge, man.

And I want to be part of that conversation.

I want to be there in the thick of things.

And I want to tell the stories that matter.

But it's also kind of scary, you know, like, because this thing that excites you, you also ask yourself, are you good enough?

Can you pull it off?

Can you do it at that level?

But I've also come to the point where I embrace everything.

I embrace the fear, I embrace the terror, I embrace the excitements.

And I said to myself, we take that first step and we figure it out as we go along.

So.

I mean, I think for me, that's one of the most, one of the most important things that you've said is this idea of taking the first step, but also recognizing that all you can deal with is what's right in front of you.

Exactly.

And, and, and it's just about keeping, you know, keeping going.

And because life.

And ironically, I had this with my son who just turned 18 at this conversation where I'm like, look, it's not always going to be great.

Like you've been through some rough patches.

We've had some good patches.

But it's recognizing that, yeah, moving forward, it's going to continue to happen.

Life doesn't exist.

Life, it doesn't exist at the peaks constantly.

And what's important for me is to know that when you're in the through you, you can get out of it.

And, and you recognizing that you can get out of it.

So yeah, it's that kind of recognizing, like you're saying earlier, like you have everything that you need right now.

And I've, I've tried to live with the, the, the idea that I will always be all right.

Doesn't matter what happens.

I'll get through it, but I'll always be all right.

And I really get this.

I really get that sense from you when you talk about your experiences.

It's like I'm not going to be fearful of what's in front of me because, yeah, I like a little workout.

Exactly, exactly.

It will.

It will.

I mean, I know that we haven't gone into this, but you know, I guess life experiences shape you in very interesting ways in 2016, in 2016.

And I haven't talked about this much.

You know, I don't think I've even discussed it on on the media.

But in 2016 I was, I had a crazy incident.

I was kidnapped.

And I remember spending 12 days, you know, in captivity with the with the kidnappers.

And why do I try to negotiate for by release and all of that stuff?

And it was, it was a 12, the longest 12 days of my life.

It was, you know, you spend that time blindfolded in a dark room in the middle of a forest.

There's, there's enough time to process stuff.

My daughter who, who's going to turn 10 in a couple of weeks, was what, nine months old then?

And I, I remember being taken out of the room and she was the last, she was the last thing I saw.

So sleeping in her cot, I remember, you know, while I was being taken, I was just thinking to myself, so I'm not going to see this girl grow.

I'm just not going to, I'm not going to hear her say say call me, call me dad.

And I remember asking, you know, myself, OK, so if you leave now, if you never come back, what will this girl remember you for?

What will this kids remember you for?

What have you really done?

And I really couldn't point out anything that I could say.

This is what you know, I've done.

And maybe in a way that's all like when I came out, shaped my approach to storytelling and the kind of stories that I want to tell and really what I want to be known for, remembered for what, what, what difference do I want to make, you know?

But it also sort of like, I guess reshaped my perception about life and things.

And like man, at someday you're going to leave all of this and, and go.

So be thankful for those little moments.

You know, that ability to be able to have a nice meal with your family, that ability to take a walk with your daughter, that ability to sit by the sea and just think, you know, be thankful for those moments because it can easily be taken away like that.

Yeah.

And so.

So yeah, you know, I coming through that, you just have to be.

You just have to say to yourself, you know what, I'll be OK, man.

I'll be OK.

Take life easy one day at a time.

Be thankful, be humble, just be chill.

Thank you very much.

Catchy.

You're welcome.

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