[SPEAKER_00]: Hey there and welcome back to Holding Space Podcast, I'm your host Dr.

Cassidy and today we are talking about the in-laws.

[SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever felt caught in the middle between wanting connection with extended family and also wanting to protect the peace in your own home?

[SPEAKER_00]: In today's episode I'm joined by my dear friend and fellow therapist Dr.

Tracy who just released her new book, You Your Husband and his mother.

[SPEAKER_00]: Dr.

Tracy brings years of clinical wisdom and personal reflection to a conversation about the triangle that so many couples find themselves in, navigating boundaries, expectations, and the deep but often painful longing for connection across generations.

[SPEAKER_00]: We talk about why these dynamics come up more often in our current cultural moment, how guilt and control can show up inside family patterns, and what it looks like to stay connected to our partners and ourselves when old stories resurface.

[SPEAKER_00]: So whether you're a new parent, figuring out how to balance family visits, a partner, trying to find your voice, or someone reflecting on the mother-in-law you hope to one day become, this episode offers some compassion, hopefully some insight, and a ton of hope.

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you ready?

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's dive in.

[SPEAKER_00]: You are listening to Holding Space Podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, Dr.

Cassidy Freedis.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a mom to three and licensed marriage and family therapists.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really glad that you took the time to hold space for you by tuning in to today's episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: My hope with this podcast is to share conversations with experts from around the world and parents who've been through it so that maybe you feel a little less alone in your experiences and the messy side of being a parent and being a human.

[SPEAKER_00]: and so that you can walk away with supportive steps for what to do next.

[SPEAKER_00]: Listening to this episode is not a substitute for seeking support from my professional and your area.

[SPEAKER_00]: I believe that holding space and offering presence to both ourselves and others is truly one of the most meaningful ways that we can express care.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you are so deserving of that care.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right, are you ready?

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's dive in.

[SPEAKER_00]: Dr.

Tracy, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: Any chance I get to be in conversation with you, I look so forward to, and I'm really, really excited about our topic today.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for coming on.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Cassidy, let me just echo those words and express my gratitude for our connection and our relationship before we jumped on.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was thinking about how your podcast was one of the first podcast of another therapist that I listened to before taking the leap into creating my own podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's been such a gift to not only first walk with you in my ears in those early postpartum days because that's where I was I was leaving my clinic listening to you coming home to nurse my baby and then to also have this connection with you for over six years now it's just been such a gift so let me just sink into that gratitude first.

[SPEAKER_00]: We, I know we connected before I had her and then we were connected through that pregnancy in that birth.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh, wow.

[SPEAKER_02]: And how is she five already?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a nice passing of time that really makes you pause in awe of life truly, but also in this like holding on tight of what it means to move through seasons.

[SPEAKER_02]: And for listeners who don't know, we initially had this group of practitioners supporting women, mothers, mental health.

[SPEAKER_02]: And behind the scenes, we were also supporting each other because of course, when women are in connection, we just do better.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we do, we really do, and I, I, I, that, there's such a fondness of thinking back to that time.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was around COVID, I was nearly postpartum.

[SPEAKER_00]: We had this, this group and we were connecting, and I think it was around in the time where a lot of folks were realizing, oh, there's a lot of cool ways to connect virtually because we had to, but then it just felt this bridge and, what a, what a, what a, what a, what [SPEAKER_00]: There was a lot happening at the time that was hard, but I also think about that time so fondly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for bringing that up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now that I'm all like swimming in all the good fields of all that, I am really excited to get into our topics today of exploring the relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: between you, your partner, and grandparents, or in-laws.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is a topic that is something you're deeply passionate about, and you wrote a book, all about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that this comes from years of your clinical work, and your willingness to also do your own work, and be vulnerable about your own experiences, [SPEAKER_00]: I would love to give you a chance before we even dive in to share a little bit about yourself and what, what were some of the roots or stories or moments that really led to you writing this book and please please share a little bit about the book as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so the book has titled you, your husband and his mother for those watching you can see it right behind me and this really beautifully states this triangle that ends up showing up for couples and I was so motivated to write this book because couples want to be on the same page they want to problem solve.

[SPEAKER_02]: And through my near 20 years of working with couples through research, through the clinical work, through even individual work with women when there has been this and want to show up, and then also through my online community, there was this repeated desire to just build healthy, connected families.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we want to do that in extension of us, especially when we transition into marriage, into [SPEAKER_02]: That bond is so important, and I know people struggle to build that, and so this resource really came out of walking beside couples and helping them do this in a way where they built these positive family relationships.

[SPEAKER_02]: So not everybody was coming in distressed and talking about, you know, the quote unquote toxic mother-in-law, but people were coming in saying, [SPEAKER_02]: how do we do this so that we're in good relationship with extended family members?

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so let's talk a little bit about Jess.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's zoom out first to just sort of this [SPEAKER_00]: We're really bringing a lot of discernment to looking at the roles and expectations that we as women and as mothers hold and then of course then coming back into the family system of how do we how do we navigate how we might want to do certain things differently.

[SPEAKER_00]: and how we might sort of navigate the sort of different rules and expectations across generations.

[SPEAKER_00]: When we ourselves start our own family and bring a child in one way shape or form to the family system.

[SPEAKER_00]: So let's first just zoom out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Talk to me just about the circle.

[SPEAKER_00]: The cultural moment of why these shifts and why these pain points are maybe coming forward more now [SPEAKER_00]: and for the folks you're seeing in your communities.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think we can all say that women today are doing things differently than what women were doing 20, 30 years ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: And part of this Cassidy we know is because of our access to information, the research we already knew about parenting in the 70s and 80s around attachment styles, around bonding and security.

[SPEAKER_02]: We now have that accessibility over accessibility even in some ways.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just always there in front of us, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But there's this moment now where women are showing up and we're saying I know more and I know differently.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so this is really important for me to then choose how do I want to be in relationship with others?

[SPEAKER_02]: How do I want to raise my children?

[SPEAKER_02]: How do I want to be in relationship with myself?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think, for so many of us, it can almost feel jarring sometimes to have this aha moment of, oh, there was actually a lot of control growing up and that didn't feel good and now with my kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to do that, or even this sense of shame that many of us grew up with and how we don't want to pass that on.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just this really big moment for women, especially in relationships, especially as parents, to say, this could look differently for us.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we could shape the next generation.

[SPEAKER_02]: of people who are emotionally attuned, who are able to drive the heart forward rather than ego and logic and losing touch to who we really are.

[SPEAKER_02]: Mm.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, yes, to all of these things.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and so let's talk about the in-law dynamic or conflict that can come up specifically.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't want to do here is villainize anyone.

[SPEAKER_00]: I genuinely believe that people show up in the way, often a lot of times also with a protective parts, right, in the way that we think we need to show up to survive different situations.

[SPEAKER_00]: becoming and I definitely want to get to this piece too of looking forward to the mother-in-laws that we will be potentially one day, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: stepping into that role.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can only imagine brings forward so much.

[SPEAKER_00]: I actually was thinking about this recently myself.

[SPEAKER_00]: My oldest is 14 and she's dating now and we're just navigating now things like who does she spend time with on the weekends?

[SPEAKER_00]: Which house does she go to [SPEAKER_00]: She and they they choose to spend a lot of their time at this person's house and with his family and I understand the context of this actually because her and I have talked about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've been in conversation with each other about this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that for her as the oldest with two younger siblings, one of which is much much younger and after spending time with her and her partner right now and around the siblings.

[SPEAKER_00]: They adore this person and they want to play video games with this person or show this [SPEAKER_00]: all the things and she and this person is the youngest and older siblings are moved out.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so for her in the beginning of this relationship and getting to know this person and getting to know herself as a [SPEAKER_00]: young person who is in her first serious relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is, it's a big deal to be able to have space where it gets to just be her and this person getting to know each other and they get to have that space at this person's house.

[SPEAKER_00]: More so than they do at hours and I know this and yet and yet I still saw within myself parts pop up that were like [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I don't, they want to be here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Am I losing pieces of her as she's pulling away?

[SPEAKER_00]: And this, of course, is so normal in such a normal part of development.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I needed to talk about these things and parts that we're getting up.

[SPEAKER_00]: And not have it kind of unfold in ways that came out in a way that it would actually maybe push her away, right, or disconnect us.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I brought this to my husband and he was like, um, cast this seems like maybe your own stuff, and I was like, uh, yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I can just imagine when you bring in a [SPEAKER_00]: grandchildren and like this is now like you're forming your own family just how intense these different triggers or parts of us or old generational patterns can come forward.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can just only imagine.

[SPEAKER_02]: you are touching on so many of the really special and nuanced themes that I touch on in the book because this is such a delicate dynamic.

[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the first things I even talk about is a mother's special relationship with their child.

[SPEAKER_02]: And specifically for the book I talk about the mother and son relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think this shows up for mothers to all of our children.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so what can often happen is there's this role transition.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what you've demonstrated here Cassidy is just this beautiful, slowing down and bringing awareness to what you're experiencing and to know that this isn't about you and it's not a personal thing, it's not about your love, it's about change.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so part of this conversation that is really helpful for couples is really recognizing that even when you're in a good relationship right now, you feel like a team with your partner, you have a good relationship with your mother-in-law, we all face changes that are going to show up, whether you're welcoming a baby or you're preparing the guest list for the wedding, [SPEAKER_02]: or just to know that the future is what you want to do to have this cohesion with family.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what I do in the book is I'm really bringing forward these conversations that couples need to have ahead of time so that they can stay rooted in what matters most to them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And as you've already brought forward, it reminds me of this couple around really struggling post-partum.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's because everybody had expectations.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was the first grandson.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was...

[SPEAKER_02]: an exciting time for everybody, both grandparents had their desires and wishes and as a couple they too were navigating their new role and challenges within themselves and each other as a couple and then you bring in these expectations and then you bring in our own struggles with breaking old patterns.

[SPEAKER_02]: we're all products of our patterns.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if we're not aware of them and if we can't slow them down, those patterns start to take over.

[SPEAKER_02]: And even more so why this conversation is so important is because many times people show up at my office where one person is more aware of the pattern.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's often because they're outside of it versus there has been more often, there has been doesn't know what that dynamic is.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's one of the reasons why in the book, I talk about those 10 difficult dynamics such show up in families.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, yes, oh my gosh.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, because what I was able to do here was I noticed it and I brought it to my husband as, again, this is obviously me, just a mess.

[SPEAKER_00]: stepping into like, I'm not a mother-in-law but just like sort of beginning to kind of put myself in that perspective of like sharing my child with someone else and then sharing in the future a role.

[SPEAKER_00]: And wanting to do that in a way where old stuff, right, like, doesn't get in the way of my connection and like, doesn't leave space for [SPEAKER_00]: her, my child, and for my son one day, to build out their own life and feel into it, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And not just know that I'm in their corner and here, as they're support, in the ways that they need.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there is like a little bit of this like stepping aside so that I can also step in.

[SPEAKER_00]: That feels really, really tricky.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's also though feels like an important part of a legacy I want to leave behind, you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I can only imagine, and it gives me so much compassion for that in-law experience, which I think is really important because I don't have it yet.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so the experience I do have, fortunately in my own experience, I have a really, really wonderful positive relationship with my mother-in-law.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, yeah, I still joke that in Loss Keep Me in Business because I have seen the first hand in my clinical work, and it with friends and colleagues, like, how tricky these things are.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk, maybe you said there's like these 10 big things that come up and maybe you can name just like one or two here that you see that are really common and we can explore how that impacts just the couple relationship in the family system as a whole.

[SPEAKER_02]: So before answering that piece, I'll get there in one moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I want to name the complexity of what it means to be the daughter-in-law, and this woman, to a woman who's not your mother.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, depending on who that is, and in the book, I outline six types of mothers-in-law.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I do that, not as a diagnosis.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's no use of narcissism in that word, because it's not helpful if you go to your husband [SPEAKER_02]: But instead we understand who is this woman and the behaviors that she demonstrates because when we know who someone is we then get to have power within ourselves to choose how we respond and deal with them So that's one piece in there and recognizing that for many women when it's your own mother you have been setting boundaries with her for a long time [SPEAKER_02]: a lifetime.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think of my own kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: My oldest is my son.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's now ten.

[SPEAKER_02]: And my youngest my daughter.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's now eight, but I remember a five years old.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's slamming the door and saying I hate you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this showed up so much earlier than with my son.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in our cultural norms, we promote and expect and tell the story of just wait until she's the moody teenager.

[SPEAKER_02]: just wait until she says no and pushes you away.

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't have those stories with boys as much and because we also see it across generations as we are today.

[SPEAKER_02]: that boys were more encouraged to pull up their socks and to just push forward and to not share their feelings and needs.

[SPEAKER_02]: So now here we are fast forward and that 32-year-old arrives in my office and he says, my mom is upset.

[SPEAKER_02]: She thinks my wife is the problem because here I am trying to set boundaries.

[SPEAKER_02]: And really when I dig into it, it's often the [SPEAKER_02]: So, when I think of those, let's even identify two of those patterns that can commonly show up.

[SPEAKER_02]: One of them is around guilt tripping.

[SPEAKER_02]: And oftentimes, you know, here's the thing, when we're framing what an extended family member is doing, we're really talking about them being a product of their patterns.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're all products of our patterns and most people don't show up maliciously saying, I'm going to manipulate you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to gaslight you or I'm going to do this guilt trip.

[SPEAKER_02]: But just as a result of our patterns, some people will communicate by saying, well, I guess I'm not that important to you if you're not choosing me for the holidays.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is so painful for families to receive.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like so when I think about just the emotion of guilt, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: As a core human emotion that we all feel and sometimes is there to show us data.

[SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't always get it right and doesn't always show up in a way that doesn't deliver the message internally or externally in ways that are actually helpful.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's that emotion that's there to say something that you [SPEAKER_00]: right and and that's potential threat right to getting out of alignment towards these things that are that feel really important and sometimes it gets it right like when I snap at my kids and I'm like [SPEAKER_00]: that doesn't feel in alignment.

[SPEAKER_00]: I come back later and I repair and I think about this in this sort of guilt-tripping perspective, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That there is something for this person who maybe ends up engaging in this guilt-tripping pattern where it's like this feels like really important and something about the way that this is all going about feels like a threat to something [SPEAKER_00]: And, that internal experience is now coming outside of me and I'm going to put that on you as this is, this is the value, this is the thing that this is how we do things, this is the expectation and I need you to get on, I need you to get with the program almost like with this because it doesn't feel good, it feels like a threat and maybe, you know, our, [SPEAKER_00]: most compassionate interpretation which is very hard to access sometimes in these moments but like is that right [SPEAKER_00]: that there's underneath all that, like this desire for connection, right, potentially present, but the way that it comes out, the way that it unfolds, the way that it's experience, what it all leads to is actually not that, right, is not connection.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, talk to me a little bit about that, right, just like the emotion of guilt and how that then [SPEAKER_00]: behaviors and expectations and patterns.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, families often have these rituals and patterns of what happens in connection.

[SPEAKER_02]: And for some families, they focus narrowly on an event, rather than looking at the span of a relationship and how relationships are built on multiple touchpoints, and not just whether you are spending those holiday moments together.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so what happens is that if people don't have the self-awareness to tune into what am I feeling and what do I need, we come out with these expectations and guilt trips, these comments to make you feel bad and to lead you to take ownership for my feelings.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I remind even my adult clients, you are not responsible for your parents' feelings.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can have empathy, you can have compassion for it, you can give them reassurance that they're important to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And ultimately, when you say we can't have the four days with you, we can only have two.

[SPEAKER_02]: If mom's upset about that, she can go to her friend, she can go to a peer, a sibling, she could go to her own parent, depending, or she could go to a therapist.

[SPEAKER_02]: And [SPEAKER_02]: process that hard feeling, but for so many people what's really behind these passive aggressive comments or the rigidity or the guilt tripping type comments.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's about connection and to know that I still matter to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and that's what it comes down to.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is so interesting when we put this in context of just also the experience of aging and also the female experience of aging.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've been reflecting on this a lot lately.

[SPEAKER_00]: I recently turned 40 and just this whole concept of over the hill.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is me and I just now roll into like oblivion and invisibility from this point forward.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there's certain ways in which that is actually [SPEAKER_00]: There's some things about this idea of going downhill and that's losing your relevance.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like losing your relevance, and also there's something about that that's a little bit freeing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I will be honest.

[SPEAKER_00]: And obviously, there's a lot of it that can be really, really painful, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So there's like, I think there's a complexity and like that experience of like, maybe I don't need to be so relevant and how that atties intake from me my own [SPEAKER_00]: you know, relationship with like being high-achieving and like what does that mean in terms of identity and And I think yeah, I think that there's there's some freedom and being like maybe I don't have to be [SPEAKER_00]: So relevant in high achieving to in this broader perspective, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so anyway, I think that there is this piece though of like invisibility and loss of relevance that comes with aging that also obviously becomes with a lot of pain.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when we when we're experiencing that at the same time that we're maybe facing our own mortality because maybe we have [SPEAKER_00]: aging parents, or aging peers, or health concerns ourselves, and now we're also stepping into this role of grandparent.

[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, obviously stepping into that comes with a lot of nuance and diversity too in terms of age.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I imagine for many, [SPEAKER_00]: You're facing your own mortality and the invisibility that comes with aging now along with this new role where your children don't need you the same And you're seeing them step into a role, maybe even now doing things a little bit different than you did Also like making their own money, you know, like I think that resources become a part of it and obviously there's so much diversity in this experience, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Some still rely heavily on maybe you for for that sort of stability and financial security, so much diversity here, but there's I think money and that resource comes into play As we're navigating things Do you need me?

[SPEAKER_00]: Do I use that as power?

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you not need that anymore?

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you more?

[SPEAKER_00]: do you have more resources and I was able to ever able to offer?

[SPEAKER_00]: Am I relevant?

[SPEAKER_00]: Am I visible?

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you moving away for me?

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you spending time with me?

[SPEAKER_00]: Which is another resource right time?

[SPEAKER_00]: Many of those are all resources.

[SPEAKER_00]: How are these resources being sort of shared?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it feel fair even?

[SPEAKER_00]: I can just imagine how hard that is.

[SPEAKER_02]: that comparison really shows up in the couples that I work with in the stories that I've heard, where it is so hard for these two sides of the family to feel like they're both relevant and important, and to also accept that this myth of equality [SPEAKER_02]: is just a myth and equality doesn't exist because you are not the same family, you are not playing the exact same role and how do we then tap into communicating what we desire and need in a really healthy way that considers the people who you are connecting with.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when I think about the five steps in the book, so I've given people the vault method.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I know you'll love all of the tools and exercises in your custody because you also know I'm an act therapist.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and the first step with couples is really around identifying what matters to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And arguably, it's the first step that talks the least about the experiences with your mother-in-law.

[SPEAKER_02]: But through the steps, I teach people how to set these boundaries in a loving, compassionate way.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I even hesitate right there to use the word boundaries because in the book, I actually talk about our core needs.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when it comes to communication with family, when it comes to you and your partner being [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just about saying, I need to only be at your parents' place for two nights.

[SPEAKER_02]: We need to come into this core need and longing inside, and then we can decide what that outcome looks like.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, okay, I love this because boundaries is something that we talk a lot about, but I think that sometimes when you talk a lot about something, it kind of starts to get really like muddy like is it what actually do we mean by this right and like how does this actually show up this is [SPEAKER_00]: And so this core needs piece, that sounds really, really important and a really deep way to kind of connect with what is it that we need here and what I'm trying to kind of gather from your describing is like, and then from there, what is the line or what is the boundary?

[SPEAKER_00]: What is the thing that we are going to choose?

[SPEAKER_00]: And we are going to communicate, and again, that the boundary doesn't ask actually anything of others, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's what we're going to do, and then other people get to have their feelings about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we're actually not responsible for those feelings.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like you said, we can have compassion, and we can, we'll be of agency over as how we communicate those things.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, but obviously, and then make the choices that we, based on what we need, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: in different relationships, in different dynamics, the firmness, or the contact around these things might vary.

[SPEAKER_00]: Am I getting that right in terms of what you're describing with the core needs and boundaries?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely, and it's this piece too where a lot of partners struggle to understand each other.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when someone says, I need you to set a boundary, excuse me, when someone actually I'll tell it this way.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's so interesting to think about boundaries in a way of understanding and having the ability to do them and I walk people through the three key ingredients of how to do that as a couple aligned and as a united front.

[SPEAKER_02]: I also tell the story of my husband and mind's experience, that even though I'm a psychologist, we too struggled to get on the same page at times, and there was this moment where one day we were talking about boundaries and reflection to earlier experiences, and he had said, I have to be honest, I thought you were asking me [SPEAKER_02]: to cut people off.

[SPEAKER_02]: When you said, you need to set a boundary.

[SPEAKER_02]: And just that piece of information right there was so important for both of us to understand that while I thought I was being clear, he heard me saying something completely different.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's quite so important for that sort of communication kind of slow down where it's like, wait, let's actually both pause and say, what I'm hearing you say is this, am I getting it right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because that way we can move forward with the sort of sense of actually really understanding instead of instead of the sort of assumptions that can come up so easily when it comes to partner communication.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you and I both know from our work in the therapy room is that this is something we all struggle with at some point or another because we bring in our histories, our old experiences, we bring in our suitcases.

[SPEAKER_02]: And for many of us we haven't unpacked them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then income, baby one, baby two, postpartum.

[SPEAKER_02]: Healing, traumatic births, the layers, the expectations from both families, and it's almost like you're being snowballed down the hill Not being able to catch your breath, which is all about what this book does for couples is Let's come back to our center and be that United front so we can have that family event So we can have the good Christmas is to come.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's so important for so many people [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you were going to name two of these patterns and we know we named the guilt trip one.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is there another one that you wanted to name here?

[SPEAKER_02]: Co-dependency is one, and co-dependency being the over-responsibility for how your parent is doing emotionally, mentally, physically.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so many adult children today struggle with this in the sense of feeling that great responsibility.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you and I had tapped on earlier about the individuation that your teenager is doing right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is so important because that's this lifelong process of in one one person had kind of use this analogy and I like this in a way of it's like you're severing an appendage appendage.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it just, like, for our mama hearts, I was walking with my son the other day and my daughter insisted on going down a different road.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she asserted so firmly saying, I need to do this for my independence.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I stood in the moment and I had to take my deep breaths because it was starting to get dusk out.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, I trust you, I will see you back home and she did.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then my son did more of this like, [SPEAKER_02]: is she going to be okay, should we follow her?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I had said to him, even when you bike to school on your own, sometimes it feels like my heart is walking outside of my body.

[SPEAKER_02]: And 10-year-old boy, he's like, oh, mom, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: But there's this reality to it that we are creating this separation from our children.

[SPEAKER_02]: They are not ours to own.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in a healthy family, we can see that difference.

[SPEAKER_02]: We can see that you're going to choose to do things differently than me.

[SPEAKER_02]: We can see that you're not responsible for my feelings, but in unhealthy families and families who struggle in these dynamics, we see over-responsibility for emotions.

[SPEAKER_02]: We see control.

[SPEAKER_02]: We see denial as a tactic to keep people as part of this family system.

[SPEAKER_00]: And how we do things, like, and not in the homeostasis of that, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: This is how we do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the other one I was going to mention, just to finish the thought, is around control and rigidity.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that can often show up even around holidays.

[SPEAKER_02]: or around communication, or it's the grandparents, it's maybe the adult child's grandparents' birthday, and that's what we do every year.

[SPEAKER_02]: We go over there for Biscotti and espresso, but it's seven p.m.

on a Sunday night, and you have a one month old, and you're telling your wife, and actually I talk about this couple in the book, he was going to his wife, we have to go.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's just what families do, and that doesn't work.

[SPEAKER_02]: as a couple who's trying to navigate this season for some of mine but for others it doesn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So let's let's end this with a little bit of hope and sort of future looking wisdom.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I do believe that you are the learning always gives me hope and so your book I think is a beacon of hope and a source for hope.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we can talk about that, and then just also this piece of, you know, how the, the, the, the listener, the agency that they have to create change, right, in their own relationship with maybe their in-laws and their partners, but then also like their future mother-in-law self, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So where do you find hope in all of this?

[SPEAKER_02]: the hope really comes from looking inwards to see that the more you know the more prepared you are to plan for these difficult conversations and situations when they come up.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the real power comes from recognizing your own sense of agency.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there's so much in this book that's going to walk you through recognizing what your mother and love brings into this conversation, what you bring into this dynamic, the relationship that you have with your partner, and then those exercises that are going to support you to feel like that connected team.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Cassidy holding you in my heart, I also think of the last piece where I couldn't write this book and not have a section on becoming the mother-in-law that you want to become, and it's in there, and I recently read the audiobook, I narrated the book into audiobook format, and going through that section, I just thought, oh wow, this is just such a beautiful offering for us right now in this moment of wanting to do differently for our children.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's powerful, don't you think?

[SPEAKER_00]: It really is.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I just want to give in this hope to the listener right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like the fact that you're right here listening right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, could you imagine how wonderful it would have been, how meaningful and game changing it would have been if [SPEAKER_00]: The people in your life that are in those roles, right, mother and law, or mother roles, like how powerful it would have been if they had this sort of resource and had taken the step and space to carve out the space and margin to tune into something like this, because it was at, you know, because they wanted.

[SPEAKER_00]: to learn and they wanted to shift and they wanted to break a cycle and also like yes it's really hard to be someone who's now standing in that generational line saying no more we're not going to do it like this anymore we're going to do something different and I just want to take a moment to honor for the listener like how hard that is and [SPEAKER_00]: that you are here listening and you're gonna go buy Dr.

Tracy's book and you're gonna dive in even deeper and how much hope there is in all of that and even if they can't feel that quite yet like well you and I will hold that for them because they're here yes I love that that's so beautiful and how powerful it is to see the work that you're already doing absolutely well Dr.

Tracy where can the [SPEAKER_02]: The best place to go to is my website, drtracd.com.

[SPEAKER_02]: All of the details are there.

[SPEAKER_02]: So go and check it out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, all right, we will link this in the show notes if those can go and find you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, Tracy, for coming on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, it was amazing.

[SPEAKER_00]: It always is with you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Really appreciate you taking the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Cassidy.

[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you enjoyed that episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you did, you might want to hit that subscribe button to be the first to know when future episodes air.

[SPEAKER_00]: And go and explore some of those past episodes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there's a topic in there that is really been wanting to learn more about.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can learn more about my private practice as well as my parenting courses and workshops at the link in the show notes.

[SPEAKER_00]: You help space for yourself today.

[SPEAKER_00]: You carve out the time and you tuned in to this episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you take a moment to honor how meaningful that is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, to me, for sure, but also for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for tuning in and I'll catch you next time.