Hey to your Therapist listeners.

It's Lori and Guy and we have a quick update.

Many of you have told us that you get something new out of each episode when you listen to it again the second or third time.

In fact, when we listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we didn't remember.

We're They're therapy is like that too.

There are so many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to absorb them all at once.

So while we're not taping new episodes right now, we are offering you our most popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to gain value from them.

We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love just as much.

I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked, which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

And I have a new book coming out.

It's called Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life, and it will be published by Simon and Schuster.

You can find out more about it on my website.

You can learn more about these on our socials.

And meanwhile, we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable as we have making them for you.

Hey, fellow travelers, I'm Lori Gottlieb.

I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column for The Atlantic.

And I'm Guy Wench.

I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear Guy collumn for Ted.

And this is Dear Therapists this week.

A high school student struggles with the intense pressure to achieve while also questioning what success really means.

I do feel like the way that the college system that everything is set up is that you kind of have to go through this in your teenage years, like there's not really much time for taking it easier, just like taking a step back, especially because I know so many other kids are competing.

It's just I do think I understand it makes me happy.

I just I don't know if I'm able to do that to reach Michael.

Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.

Deo therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.

By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partner and full and we may edit it for length and or clarity.

Hey guy, Hi Laurie, So where are we going this week?

We are going back to high school?

Ooh, high school?

That should be interesting.

Yeah, the acne is coming out already.

Let me read you the letter deo therapists.

I'm a high school junior, and the precures of college acceptance are already weighing down on me.

I feel like I'm blindly applying to any leadership position there is, and that means for every time I'm chosen, there's at least five times I'm not.

I'm already I've become numb to rejection and not fully reaping its benefits.

But on the other hand, I feel like I turn into a green eyed monster every time.

How do I find the happy medium when it comes to rejection?

And more importantly, how do I find the things that truly matter to me, not just what will look good on my college app Thanks Libby.

Well, first of all, I hope Libby knows that she is not alone in this.

This is very common for high schoolers today, unfortunately, to experience this kind of pressure and to feel it odds with who they are and what they want in the service of creating a resume for college.

And I really think that we're not doing a benefit to high schoolers today who are in this real rat race of competition, because if you think about it, they spend so many hours tethered to their desks, and if we replace their laptops with the machine, we'd be like, oh, my goodness, that's a sweatshop.

But it's an academic sweatshop.

And it's really concerning because it's not leaving them enough time to have a life.

And what they miss out on is all of the tasks developmentally that really for a healthy human need to happen during that time.

So let's go talk to her and find out a little bit more about what she's going through.

Absolutely, you're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio.

We'll be back after a quick break.

I'm Laurie Gottlieb and.

I'm Guy Winch and this is Deotherapists.

So Hi, Libby, Hi, it's nice to meet you.

Guys.

Hi, Libby, it's great to meet you too.

Your letter was about the college application process and all these leadership positions that you're trying to get so that you have the extra curriculars and all of that.

Can you tell us what a typical week looks like for you in terms of how busy you are what you are doing, but would have to get a sent of the stresses that you're dealing with.

Well beyond the academic side of things, where my course load is pretty heavy, I'm on the leadership I think five different clubs at my school, and two of them are extremely prominent, so I usually have about like three meetings a week with that along with other projects.

And I also volunteer at the food bank eight hours every Saturday, so that's just my time.

I'm curious to know of those five extracurriculars that you participate in, which ones bring you joy.

I love going to the food bank, I do.

I feel like that's the one where it's kind of me time, but it's also being productive at the same time.

But I also, beyond the hard work it takes, I do enjoy feeling like I'm actively making a change in my school, Like one of them is a club that promotes diversity and inclusion, and it's really a good feeling to know that I'm actually making a dent in the atmosphere at my school.

That's great.

You mentioned metime that the food bank feels like metime.

Yeah, is there any actual meatime?

Like how much meatime do you have?

I don't know, but I think in terms of actual meatime, I think Sunday evenings are kind of it for me in that I watch a show I Bee with my dog.

So paint just a picture that of Sunday evenings.

That's the only mettime.

What are you doing?

Saturday day, Saturday night, Friday night, Sunday Day?

Where are your weekends?

What are you doing?

It's a lot of homework.

I really do try to like put a lot of effort into my school work, so that takes a lot of time behind the scenes, and I won't feel good about myself unless I really get that out of the way.

So it's usually Sunday where I've gotten it all done.

And this pressure that you're feeling to build a resume, where is that coming from?

Is that coming from the school environment, Is that coming from your parents?

Is that something that you've always held yourself to those kinds of standards.

What is the end goal here?

Getting into a certain kind of college, which leads you to what, which leads you to what?

So help us understand your mindset.

I think it's always mostly been me.

I've always been very competitive, But then you can put in my environment a little bit too, and that both my parents have been successful in life, and the competition that my school breeds, and just like the kind of kids I feel like I'm surrounded by definitely induce me to dry even harder.

So beyond getting into a good school, are there specific schools in mind, the specific majes you have in mind that you want to study, specific career parts.

You know, you just want to give yourself the best options possible.

Yeah.

I'm not naive enough to think that my life is perfect if I get an acceptance letter to like a top college, but I do feel like it's an important step on the way to having a good career, feeling successful every day or something.

Yeah, I don't really know what the goal is.

I just think if I feel satisfied with myself, I will achieve that.

When you talk about feeling satisfied with yourself, you talked about two of your extracurriculars that are meaningful to you.

They food bank, and then you're working on this diversity and inclusion initiative at your school.

So the other three are you doing those for your resume or are you doing those because your heart wants to do them.

I do enjoy the other ones quite a bit.

One of them is a woman empowerment club too, and I do enjoy that one a lot.

I'd lump that one and with the others, but I think the two other clubs, it does kind of feel like I'm kind of taking up this space because I know it's very competitive.

So and are the guidance counselors or is a general wisdom around the school that says you need at least four or five clubs?

You need that many extracurriculas.

In other words, you would think that just the two that you mentioned in the extra one you threw in that sounds good.

So is that just because of what everyone else is doing?

Why so many?

If I want to succeed and be among the most accomplished in my class, that's just a necessity.

It's it's leadership and it's important.

To have that.

You use the word accomplished, and I want to help unpack for a minute what your definition is of accomplishment and success, because as I'm hearing this, I'm thinking about, well, you're doing these activities that don't really mean that much to you, at least two of them, and you're just doing them to have something on your resume that might look good for colleges.

But it feels very empty.

And I think that's why you wrote to us.

I mean, if you were really engaged in all of your activities, we never would have received your letter.

So help us understand what accomplishment and success mean to you.

It's interesting because I think my number one goal in life is to be happy, but I also think that to make myself happy, I have to feel like I am succeeding, and succeeding means like I'm getting the grade I want on a test.

Have you heard about the difference between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.

I do not think I have.

So Intrinsic motivation is something where the motivation comes from inside of you, like working at the food bank or working on a diversity initiative at your school.

That's something that's very meaningful to you.

Women empowerment also seems like that's meaningful to you.

But the other ones you're saying, you're just basically building a resume with them.

That's extrinsic motivation.

That's saying something outside of me, whether it's a college system, but you have this idea that there is some reason outside of you that you need to be doing these things that don't really feed you or nourish you.

And you said, well, I'm happy if I get a certain grade.

These extrinsic markers of success make you happy.

And what I want to challenge you on is that most people who find happiness, and by that, I mean people who are content, because happy is sort of like joy.

It's a feeling that comes and goes like any other feeling, sadness, anxiety, they go in and out like weather systems.

But a feeling of overall contentness in life comes from meaning connection.

And that's the part where I think you're setting yourself on a dangerous path.

So you're getting your happiness from a grade or something that's on your resume, and I just don't think that that's going to make you happy in the long run.

I guess I really boil it down like I wrote down, like the top five things that make me happy at the end of the day.

I do think a big part of it would be social too.

I do find happiness and doing well in school, but I also appreciate connection.

It's just I feel like there's two sides of me that are kind of battling for the time to find those interactions that make me happy.

Well, I'm glad there's connection.

But the difference between intrinsic and external motivation might be it makes me happy to try my best and to have this growth mindset where I'm learning and I'm growing even if I don't get the highest grade, and I'll learn something from that and maybe next time I'll do better.

As opposed to what did everybody else get?

Oh my gosh, I got a ninety eight.

Someone else got in ninety nine, right, and you're laughing because this is what you're experiencing.

As opposed to, Wow, I learned a lot when I was for this test, or that was really interesting to me.

Or I pushed myself to work hard.

That's intrinsic motivation.

Extrinsic motivation is what great am I going to get?

Same with your extracurriculars.

I really enjoy doing this activity or it's very meaningful to me.

There's passion and purpose behind it, as opposed to I became president of this club and that's going to look good on my resume.

I wholeheartedly agree with that.

It's just I can't help but feel a bit guilty if I do prioritize that the less artificial happiness, and that I do feel like the way that the college system that everything is kind of set up is that you kind of have to go through this in your teenage years, Like there's not really much time for taking it easier, just like taking a step back, especially because I know so many other kids are competing.

It's just I do think I understand that makes me happy.

I just I don't know if I'm able to do that to reach my goals.

You know, we talk about the work life balance, and we usually mean the workplace and the life balance, but the study life balance is exactly the same as the work life balance.

It really means how many hours are you dedicating to your career present of future versus the connections small indulgences like in the Sunday evenings you allow yourself to watch a show and I hope you enjoy it, but that's very little that you're allowing yourself.

And part of the concern about that is that balance.

The way it's set up right now is two weighted in the favor of the work component, and it doesn't end once you get into college because the mindset that you have right now will be carried over into well, but then I want to go to graduate school or get the best internship or get the best job, so can't slack off now.

And then you get the best job, or you go to graduate school and can't slack off now.

And this is what happens to people.

They start in high school and probably you start it before, but you set the bar really really high, and then you focus so much on that you take your eye of how you're doing, and that results in feeling very, very stressed out.

But this is the right time for high school students to catch it as a huge competition.

But they are probably some tweaks that need to be done that balance things out a little bit more.

If you had a little bit more time, if you could invent five more hours in the week that you didn't have to dedicate to the getting into college thing.

What would you do with those hours?

Hmmm, five more hours in the week, And I don't think the answer you're looking for is put another five hours system.

Well, I don't think that's the answer you were looking for, Libby.

Yeah, you're right, because it wouldn't be a very enjoyable five hours.

But that is where your mind went first.

I mean, that's my point, right, that your mind life as were like, oh, I could do so much more studying, or there's one more leadership thing.

But that's the right.

But I am furious if it were just for you, just for your own joy satisfaction, nothing that counts for anything.

What would you do.

If I'm allowed to do this, I'd probably break up an hour for each of the five days of the weekdays, and I would put it at sunset time, and I would go on a bike ride and I would sit and I would I don't know, eat ice cream and watch the sunset.

Oh wow, yes, that sounds amazing.

Guy was talking about how this mindset that you have won't end once you get to college, and a lot of kids in high school think about college is the price, you know, if I can just get that acceptance letter, if I can just get into that college, and then they don't really think about what happens.

All they think about is here's the school I want to go to, or here are the three top schools that I want to go to, and I have to put all of my energies into getting into those schools.

And if I get into one of those schools, I'm done.

And so going back to intrinsic motivation, what is your intrinsic motivation for wanting to get into a certain kind of college.

What do you think that will do for you and your life satisfaction.

I think it's a pretty good marker of how much I would have sacrificed over like maybe these past four years at high school, or what will it be these past four years?

I know that myself in the future will it will be like a very big symbol of all my hard work, and if I it would just show like some of my character too, Like if I worked hard for this goal, I've reached it, and that means I could reach more goals in the future.

And what if your goal in high school when you look back later, you said, you know what I did in high school is I worked really hard and I focused on things that mattered to me, And I got into a good college, maybe not the one, and you did it that way, and you met lots of friends, you were involved in tons of activities that meant something to you.

You were prepared for the kind of career you wanted.

You ended up having the kinds of relationships that you wanted.

Would you look back and be disappointed in yourself?

Absolutely not.

Somehow I feel like that will be my life, Like I will learn this lesson eventually, but right now I couldn't help.

But when you're saying that, think of like a little nagging voice in the back of my mind that was saying, like, you could have had more?

So what is the more that you could have had.

Let's just use a symbol of colleges.

Let's say we're talking about Harvard, Yale, Stanford, whatever, going to Harvardale, Stanford as opposed to a really really good school that isn't Harvard Dale Stanford.

What is the more that you think you would have at Harvard, Yale or Stanford.

I just feel like one is a bigger symbol and for it to whom, maybe to me and maybe to everybody else too, It's just I'm so in the moment right now of working hard, skipping out in the mean time, et cetera.

That I want it to make me come in number one, And even if that's just like the US News ranking, it is how other people view it.

I want my hard work to reflect a gold medal, not silver.

It sounds like you're saying, I need to know that I can do that, and once I get into number one, then I can maybe relax a little bit more because I proved it to myself, so then I'll be able to be a little less gold driven.

I especially feel like in today's culture, what college you go to is like one of the biggest things.

Like if I don't do as well in that school, I can always use that network of yes, I went there.

And it's unfortunate that it's structured that way, but I do feel like it is important, especially if I was applying for future jobs and everything.

It is an important factor and I don't want to ignore it.

I just want to help you with some reality checking on that.

Which is that?

And it's hard to see because you're in the middle of all of these kids who have the same beliefs and all of these parents, by the way, in your community I'm sure have the same beliefs that you have, But I want to zoom out a little bit and give you the perspective from decades down the line, which is that every study shows that where you went to college, whether you went to an Ivy League college or you didn't, has no impact on your future happiness in life.

And so you feel like if I have that and I can carry that around for the rest of my life.

I went to Harvard, I went to Stanford, I went to Yale, then somehow that protects you and provides a certain kind of life for you that I think is a fiction, because there are just as many people from those schools who are depressed and anxious and unhappy and don't meet their career goals then people who don't.

And so let's just say, for the sake of argument, that these studies are right, that there is no difference in happiness decades later between the people who went to the number one school versus the people who went to the very good schools and were happy at those schools.

What is your goal, then, What is the purpose of all of this, of not taking those bike rides, of not watching the sunset?

I don't know.

I don't really quite know what the goal is.

I just know that if I reached this one, it'll just feel, I don't know, like I'm on the right path.

And that's why we're a little bit worried, because guys are looking at each other because you have this fantasy.

And it's not just about schools, by the way.

So in life, it's like, if I get this one job, if I have this amount of money at that point, I will inoculate myself from you know, sort of future unhappiness, right right.

And the research about money is just the same as the research about the ivy leagues that beyond a certain income which is comparatively low, it doesn't make a difference to happiness at all.

And so what worries us is this idea that you're going to get into this school and you're going to get there and you're going to go uh oh wait, I sacrificed my childhood and my adolescence for this, really and for a while it will protect you because every time you go somewhere, you'll get to say, yeah, I go to whatever school, or you know, when you graduate, yeah I graduated from this school.

But it's going to start to feel empty.

At a certain point, it will start to meet a lot less to you and equally importantly to the people around you.

So all of the ways that right now this stuff means so much when people are like where do you get into school?

Where are you going to school?

That means a lot.

It's going to mean almost nothing later on in life, you.

Know, be part of I think the thinking that you have that's problematic, but a lot of people in your position have is that it feels like going from one hundred percent effort to ninety eight percent effort to ninety seven percent effort will sabotage your goals entirely.

So it's either sunset or hord.

You can't have both.

And that's a real problem with the thinking because that's absolutely incorrect.

And I think that if you were to speak to people who consider themselves successful later in life, they will point to the mix they have these professional goals, and equally important for them is to have a life, is to do the things that make them happy, is to do the things that give them meaning, which is then about personal enrichment, connections and family and friendships and all of those things.

And I think that the feeling is and this is the feeding that I think is troubling me with you is that you really feel like no, but right now it has to be one hundred percent, and I have to put on hold all my other wants and needs other than Sunday watching the show for a little bit.

And that is the thinking that I think is to extreme, because success means you.

Have both well, right, I think when we talk about success, you can have all of these very impressive extracurriculars and the grades that you want to have, But if the cost is stress or depression, or anxiety or envy all the time, or this feeling of never being good enough compared to your classmates, I don't know that that's a healthy definition of success, and I don't know that it's the kind of success that you should aspire too.

It's just it's so hard to change my way of thinking because when you guys are saying this, I am reminded of like what I have honestly thought is that I will be likely happier socially, I will feel less like the toxic environment.

But it's just so hard to unlearn that wanting the best, especially because I am in that environment right now.

So I can help, but wonder if I could have both.

So Libby, what Guy said earlier I think is really important, which is that nobody's saying go from one hundred and ten percent effort to eighty percent effort.

He was talking about going to like a ninety eight, and I think what he meant to wasn't a ninety eight.

And the things you care about, the things you care about, put in one hundred and ten percent effort because you care.

Guy and I we put in one hundred and ten percent effort into the things that really matter to us.

We will sacrifice lots of things for the things that really matter to us but matter to us intrinsically.

But to put in one hundred and ten percent effort into something that doesn't mean something to us, that is where we want to open up a little door for you and to help you think about.

Even in this conversation, those two extracurriculars that you said, well, those are leadership positions, and at my school those look really good on a resume.

I think when you get to college, what makes for success are the people who are whole human beings who really learned something about themselves as they were going through this developmental phase.

Those people who say, I know what's important to me, and I'm going to put a lot of effort into what's important to me.

I'm going to be authentic.

And it's even possible that your plan is backfiring because I think that the colleges are pretty aware of what's authentic and what's not.

And you're kind of rolling your eyes a little bit there, but I want to tell you that I think they're getting much better at that.

They're like, wait a minute, this person is doing five extra curriculars, and they're doing this and that and the other thing, and they're also getting the top grades.

And I have to wonder, where's this person's true passion?

Who is this person?

Yeah, I absolutely understand that.

And I have to say I was thinking of like the kids I know who they run clubs like I don't even know, like research of kidney transplant or something, and I seriously doubt sixteen year olds are interested in that.

If you ask any of my friends or any of my classmates, I would feel like they would describe me as that person.

I feel like that's a big part of my quote unquote brand.

You use the word brand, okay, that that's part of your brand.

And I think right there, you're looking for a brand of a college.

You're not looking for the place where you will thrive.

You are simply saying, oh, I want the Harvard brand or whatever your dream is, as opposed to where will I actually thrive?

And you're looking at how people perceive you.

That's your brand, that's not your essence.

And in life, what's going to be important in terms of your happiness is what is your authentic essence, not what is your brand.

I can say for myself that when I was in high school, I felt like if I didn't do all of the things that I could do, even if they didn't make me happy or were fulfilling to me, that people would perceive me as less accomplished.

People would perceive me as less in the game.

If I didn't get the top score on a test, then people would think I was less smart because I could have gotten a higher score.

But I decided to go take that bike ride and look at the sunset, and what I found was it didn't matter what people thought of me because I was making myself miserable.

And I think that the mindset is, well, it's only four years, so I can live miserably for four years.

Four years matters not just because of those four years, but because it forms who you are going forward.

That's true when you think about your brand.

I want you to think seriously about what you value in yourself and not what others might value about you, and to be able to separate that out, because right now they are so enmeshed.

Yeah, the thing is, those things are important to me, but I feel like I can't let up too, Like I need to have that accomplished version of myself, and then I also am trying to work on that other person.

If you described the way you are right now, and you compare that to describing exact same person with one tweak that the second version of Libby only does three clubs rather than five, and she spends an hour taking a bike ride, watching the sunset, sometimes having some ice cream, sometimes doing some sketching, sometimes just listening to music.

She spends an hour of quality time with herself every day doing things that just make her smile.

Which one is more successful of those two?

Libby's the second one It just it just it just clicked for me.

It just clicked for me.

And who do you like better?

Libby?

One who does things that don't really mean that much to her, but she's trying to game the system.

Or Libby two, who's really accomplished, works really hard, gets really good grades, participates in activities that mean something to her.

She wants to make the world a better place, and she also values her social connections and she values herself.

I like the second one.

Yeah, that's crazy.

I've always thought that like a central tenet of and I think right around when I wrote to you guys, I was thinking a lot of like what rejection is and what success is, and something I wrote down was successful people do all the things unsuccessful people don't want to do.

Now, I don't know if that's true.

It looks there's always more you can do.

That's certainly going to be true.

In college there was always another chapter, you can read, another paper, you can study a round.

The trick then is to know where to set the limit and to know how to prioritize some other things so you are clear about the social being important.

The third aspect is again your quality of life.

Like you know, people will sometimes say, oh, I just took a bath for an hour and just kind of lay there and thought for a bit, or the bike ride all the kinds of things that you look at like, I don't have time for that.

But the way it works is that if you decide, here are the things that actually make me smile and unwind and recharge and rejuvenate, like taking the bike ride and watching the sunset, So those become priorities.

Are limited them because I don't have a ton of time.

But once they are in, what then don't I have time for?

And then that's when the less meaningful extras drop off because truly then you don't have time for them.

But they won't drop off unless there's something else posing its way in that you need to prioritize.

And that's again your emotional needs, your self care, take a moment to breathe, to relax, to absorb, to get perspective.

That's what's missing that you need to elbow in, and other things will drop out because of it.

I'll also give you a little bit of a window into what Guy and I see in the therapy room, which is that an older version of you will come in and sit on our perspective couches and they will say, I went to this college, I have this successful job, I have lots of friends.

Everything looks great on the outside, and I am so unhappy and I don't know why, and I see your face.

Your face just sort of fell.

Yeah, and that's because I think that something resonated there with you, that it was sort of like the ghost of Christmas past, that something said, uh, oh, what if?

Even though I don't think that that's how you think things are going to go, because nobody does.

So everybody like you thinks I'm going to work really hard, I'm going to get into the college.

I'm going to do really well in college, and then I'm going to get this great job and it's going to be great.

And then they come to therapy and they say, I don't know why it's not great.

I don't know what happened.

I did everything right.

I checked off every box and more.

There's nothing I could have done differently.

But oh yes there is.

And that's what we're trying to tell you, that there is something you do differently.

It's not about the checklist, because the checklist won't necessarily get you to the kind of life you want to live.

Yeah, it's the checklist thing kind of also struck a nerve because a little anecdote I recently started just like seeing a therapist to deal with like the stress of junior year, because this might have kind of inspired me.

But I told her I didn't have a very good weekend and she asked why, and I was like, I didn't get a lot done, and she was shocked to discovered I had a backup to do list after I'd finished my first to do list, and she was told me, that's I don't know, like I'll never really reach like what guy was saying, Like I'll never really reach that check off, Like it's just a constant uphill.

Battle, you know, LIBBYA.

I'm wondering, we've been talking a lot about the environment at your school.

What do you think your parents would say about going from one hundred and ten percent to maybe ninety eight percent in certain areas that you're less passionate about.

I think they'd be complete proponence of that when they get a parent did your conferences.

The teachers are expecting to see like super crazy, like super hard on me parents, and they're always shocked that my parents seem chilling, and they agree they want me to take a step back and relax.

But that means there's no external people making me that wise, it's just me.

It's not just you, it's the culture too.

The environment that we're in is contagious and so part of you.

Yes, you're just inherently a person who is very driven, and that can be a great quality, but you have to drive in the right direction.

You can be driven, but where are you actually getting to where you actually going and are you enjoying the ride.

That's a good analogy, yeah, because when you guys are talking about that second Libby, it was just I was thinking about I'm like, I would totally want to be that girl.

I really would, but it's just it's hard when I feel like the environment I'm in doesn't really foster that kind of person.

Like, how do you really transform, Like to use like a flower analogy, how do you like blossom into that flower when the ground you're in only really takes the first version?

No, no, no, that's the point that I'm showing to make because that's not necessarily true.

The soil isn't like that.

One thing to remember is that nobody gets to live your life for you.

That this is your life and you get to choose how it goes.

And so when you see I can't do this or I can't do that.

I only get this little window on Sunday nights.

That's my I get to watch a show, you know.

I mean when you hear that, it sounds like a very limited life.

I really appreciate your advice.

It's really nice to hear it, too, because I feel like there is a part of me that's kind of been like whining for it.

Like I would like to be able to become a more well rounded person.

I would like to read that book on my shelf.

I would like to have that.

It's just nice to hear I might be like allowed to almost.

So, Libby, We're thinking about your situation, and here's what we'd like you to do this week.

We'd like you to go on that bike ride and look at the sunset, and while you're there, we want you to make a list of the things that you would just like to do.

Like you just said, oh, I'd like to read a book off my shelf occasionally while you're up there enjoying the sunset.

Make a list here are seven things that I would like to do.

And then we want you to do one of those each day.

And it doesn't have to take a full hour.

It could be something like I'm going to read a chapter of a book and maybe that takes me thirty minutes.

Or I'm going to call a friend and we're going to not talk about anything academic.

We're just going to talk abo about life and laugh and enjoy ourselves.

Whatever those things are for you, we'd like you to do one of them a day and really embody Libby Too.

And when you catch yourself having a Libby one reaction, would like you to write down what Libby Too would think about that, because Libby Too might think, but actually really enjoying the book that I'm reading, and I'm allowing myself to do at least forty five minutes a day a bit, and I'm loving it.

And if you can get this balance right between keeping your finger on your poets and giving yourself things that you need that you've been denying yourself because of this other priority, that's success, that's Libby Too, and because ultimately we think you'll be much happier and actually more successful in life as Liby Too rather than Liby One.

Okay, I can absolutely do that, but it was not as scary as I thought of it.

Of you.

And remember too, because you do hold yourself to such high standards.

The perfectionist in you is going to want to master that this week, and we want to let you know that this takes time.

We would consider this a success if you've got just a taste of what it might be like to inhabit Libby too, because we think Libby to is your more authentic self, and that's the goal of this, So if you get a little taste of that, this week will be a huge success.

I think.

I think it's a really good idea.

I hope it'll help me like redefine my goals too, and it's just good to like find what would make me happy, So I'm excited.

Yeah, we don't think you've put enough thought into that.

Yeah, well, it'd be nice to finally be able to.

I think adolescence is a really important time for developing a sense of who you are and what's important to you, because you're in that period between being a child where you're so influenced by the adults around you, to becoming an adult yourself.

And I'm so glad that Libby was able to sit and grapple with the two different parts of her, the part of her that's very impacted by what she thinks is important in the culture.

And then the part of her that says, wait a minute, I don't necessarily want to live like this.

And really getting in touch with what your needs are, learning that, regardless of all the obligations in front of me, I need to have some time off.

I need to be able to read for pleasure.

I need to be able to watch a sunset, and to be able to recognize that as you're growing up and you become a full adult, no one is going to do that for you.

You have to learn to take care of your own emotional needs in that way, and this is the time to practice that.

And you also have to be able to define your values for yourself.

That's part of the work of moving through adolescence and early adulthood.

She's gone through her life with this very all or nothing mindset.

There's success and there's failure, and there's nothing in between, and her definition of success is not actually leading to what I think would be her definition of a successful life.

So I'm really interested to see whether she is able to incorporate some of this into her daily life.

Sometimes these small tweaks can make a huge difference.

I'll say this, Laurie, when we do these sessions, I often walk away thinking, oh, there's a reminder for me there as well.

And as we were talking, I'm like, when is the last time I saw a sunset?

It's not that long ago, in fact, but I'm going to go watch one today.

You're listening to Dear Therapists from my Heart Radio.

We'll be back after a quick break.

So for the first time, we got back a home with assignment from a natural student.

Libby, And this is the assignment that I care the most about.

Exactly Libby too.

Let's hear it, hi, guys.

So I did it.

I wrote down my list, which was as follows.

One watched the sunset.

Two, finally finish my book I've been reading.

Three, go on to walk with my best friend for catch up on the latest sn L Five, go out and get lunch.

Six, watch a movie with my little brother, and seven sit in a pretty place and just listen to music.

And after that week, I honestly feel lighter.

I thought I'd feel more stressed with less time, but it's more like the highs and lows of my day are more saturated.

I'm getting more satisfaction after finishing my work with piling more on and the things I do for myself are just as fun as I thought there would be.

Just like you said, I do feel more balanced after bringing this balance into my life.

I feel less like a workhorse and more like a girl just doing her best.

I'm really going to try to implement this more into my life, even if it's just three things a week, and I do recommend it to anyone else overwhelm my stress out there.

I'm feeling far more optimistic and just happy.

I feel like I was really able to have those extra five hours of sunsets that I craved.

So thank you, Thank you so much so.

I love that Libby discovered that when you have balance in your life, it doesn't make you less productive.

It actually makes you function better as a whole.

I think what stops many people from doing what Libby did is this fear that because they're so depleted, if they spend any effort in trying to make time for themselves, that will button them out and they will really go into the red, when in fact it's paxical.

It's the opposite.

By making time for yourself, you are filling your tank, You're not depleting it further.

And I hope that other students like Libby listen to this and they try it for themselves, because what they're doing is they're training themselves to take the time to care for themselves, which they will need to do as adults, because we see so many adults who come to us with a similar thing.

So it's not necessarily about extracurriculars and getting grades and getting into college, but it's about not being able to take time for themselves in their daily lives.

So I hope that high school students listen to this, but I also hope that adults listen to this and implement these strategies.

Just try it for a week like Libby did, and see and feel the change.

Hey fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice from the podcast in your own life, send us a quick voice memo to lurid guy at iHeartMedia dot com and tell us about it.

We may include it in a future show.

Thank you so much for listening.

If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate and review it.

You can follow us both online.

I'm at Lorigottlieb dot com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore author.

And I'm at Guywinch dot com.

I'm on Twitter and on Instagram at Guywinch.

If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, big or small, email us at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.

Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis were produced and edited by Mike Johns.

Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairygodmother Katie Couric.

And Next Week, a woman deals with the fallout after her mother blames her for her father's suicide.

She said, you know why he killed himself, So she made it sound like she knew the reason, like he left it in the suicide note.

Basically, I don't believe her anymore.

I feel like she's lying.

Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio