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Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week are Beyond Contact.

We'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from the newest cases as we talked with the top experts.

Welcome to Beyond Contact.

I am Captain Rona today, where you are absolutely honored to be speaking with the acclaimed investigative journalist mister George Knapp.

George is the chief investigative reporter for KLAS TV in Las Vegas, as well as a weekend host on Coast to Coast AM.

He's far too humble to want to hear this, but he has won multiple Edward R.

Mureau Awards, Peabody Awards, Mark Twain Awards, Emmy Awards, et cetera, et cetera for his incredible work in journalism.

He has graciously participated in the last couple of contact of the desert events, and I'm very grateful for that.

His reporting on Bob Blazar in Area fifty one broke that story wide open for all of us, and he is with us today because he just testified before Congress at the UAP hearings, and I thought he was the perfect choice to do.

So.

Hey, George, thanks so much for taking the time.

Man.

Yeah, Captain ron, I salute you.

Good to talk to you, Thanks, Bud.

Hey, So this latest hearing was very interesting to me.

You know, the only frustration I felt was the limited time you guys got.

I kept feeling like, man, if they could just give George seven or eight hours, they would really have a different understanding of the phenomenon.

What was your takeaway from the hearing, Well, you know, we were given the parameters going in and everyone was supposed to have a five minute opening segment, and then there was going to be as many questions as they wanted, and they kept going for a couple hours.

I know a lot of people are angry because Representative Luna, the chairperson, cut me off, but she had to.

I mean, I wrote, I'd still be talking if they had allowed me to continue.

I wrote way more content for that hearing than could possibly fit in that timeframe.

She cut me off at about seven minutes, so allowed me to go two minutes over.

But she came back around and there were a lot of questions related to the things that I was going to testify to.

Anyway, I didn't get everything in that I wanted in, but I got most of it.

I was honestly very impressed with all of the questions.

People were very much more informed than I anticipated them to be.

That's what I wanted to ask you right away.

Was there something that you didn't get a chance to get out because of the time constraints.

Well, there are a couple of things I was going to say about disclosure.

You know, I've always been a pessimist about disclosure.

The glass is not only half empty, it's bone dry.

For me.

I think that they're never going to come clean.

They're never going to admit this stuff, because I think a lot of them would go to prison.

It's possible for that.

So I was going to propose an idea that Robert Bigelow and I've been kicking around for controlled disclosure, a limited sort of disclosure where the president comes forward says, look, they're here, these craft.

We've got this stuff.

We've collected it and kept it in secret for a long time.

We haven't figured out the technology.

It's all real, folks.

Your suspicions are right, but we can't say more than that because we there was a legitimate security issue.

We are in a race for this technology against the Russians and the Chinese and maybe a couple of other nations as well, and whoever gets that technology win.

So accept my apology.

It's all been true, but we can't say any more than that.

I think, you know, the UFO world would be dissatisfied with that.

They'd be screaming and banging on the table.

But some of the possibilities would be the scientific community, which you know has ignored the subject because of the stigma, the perceived stigma, would realize, hey, this is real.

It's acceptable now to work on it, and engineers would work on it.

You have our best scientists who would thus be free to go ahead and dive in and take a look at it.

You know, our country, the secrecy is so severe.

We don't have our best and brightest scientists and engineers working on this.

There is a reverse engineering program.

It's been underway for at least seventy five years and maybe longer, and we haven't made much progress because it's within such a small circle of people.

You can't tell anybody about it.

So I think that a limited disclosure, if it came from this particular president, would go a long way.

It would distract away from other things that he doesn't want to talk about anyway, I think, And that's what I was going to pitch.

I also had a couple of quotes from Jay Stratton, who was instrumental in creating AFSAP.

He was instrumental in creating a TIP.

He was the first director of the UAP task forse even before it was authorized by Congress.

He was in charge of it.

He did great work.

He has had his own personal face to face experiences and encounters with whatever this is.

And he gave a couple of statements about look, the real danger here is that without congressional oversight, we'll go right back as the same people who kept this secret for eighty years will keep it secret for another eighty years.

Unless we force their hand and make them cough up some information or at least admit there's something really to it, they won't do it.

And that's what I really wanted to get across.

But I'll tell you Ron, that committee, the task force was very impressive to me in that Number one, they really knew their stuff, they had good questions, they weren't messing around.

All of them or their staffs had done homework on this.

And number two, it was bipartisan.

You have far left Democrats and far right Republicans who got along and were able to ask questions and be on the same page on any topic.

These days, it's amazing.

But it really was maybe the only issue on which members of Congress have bipartisan agreement that it's legit and just should be investigated agreed.

Number Three, I would add that everybody took it hell serious.

There was no dismissive, derogatory, nothing.

Yeah, So that was interesting and I would be very satisfied if we got that limited disclosure like that.

I think everybody in the community would feel validated.

And again, as soon as you said that, I immediately thought, well, this would make it okay for scientists to look at it, and that's what I want.

Biglow was really interested in many of the people who work with him, and the time is right because there are a lot of people around Trump who are definitely interested in this.

His Secretary of State, former senator has made many public statements, his Director of the CIA has made statements about the reality of this and the technology, and I think the time is right for some progress to be made there.

Not to mention his son, yeah, exactly.

In your testimony, you recounted an account from a Russian ICBM base where a UFO took control of their launch systems, which is very similar to the nuclear witnesses that we have such as Bob Sallas, Robert Jacobs and others.

Do you think this is a good approach to get Congress members on board because it's sort of safe and everyone should be concerned about this.

Right, absolutely, I mean that was the point of sharing that story.

It was October nineteen eighty two that ICBM base was in Ukraine.

The missiles were ready and pointed and targeted at US.

If they were fired, world War II would start and we'd all be going.

So this UFO appears over that base.

It splits apart, it merges back together, It performs in incredible maneuvers.

This one on for a couple of hours, and we know about it because these documents are brought back from Russia.

All of the witness statements are Russian officers at this key base, and they all describe what had happened.

After being up there for a couple of hours.

Suddenly the launch control system inside this base lights up, lights up a big display.

Something entered the launch control codes a specific codes in a specific sequence.

The missile fired up and they were ready to go.

The Russians are frantic trying to shut this thing down.

They couldn't do it.

I mean, we are moments away from global catastrophe.

The UFO suddenly goes poof, It's gone.

The launch control system goes back to normal, the missiles disarmed.

Basically, they essentially stop their launch control sequence and Ministry Defense sends a team in.

They take this stuff apart.

They can't figure out what had caused it until they realized the UFO caused it, and it was sending a message.

These might be your most powerful weapons, but they don't impress us all that much.

It's sort of similar to what's happened here what they call the Northern tiercases.

One base after another visited by UFOs, and the missiles there were taken off line.

They weren't fired up, ready to go.

They were taken off line, so if there had been an emergency or a conflict, we couldn't have used them.

So, you know, Bob Sallas, Bob Jacobs, those guys, I mentioned them in my testimony because they are true Americans.

They heeded the call that came forward to Arrow, told them what they know and what they had seen and experienced, and they were dismissed like their nutcases.

And it's an insult to those kind of guys who had legitimate careers, served their country admirably, and they get left out of the room by Arrow, which is supposed to be investigating this stuff and taking it seriously.

And these are bright guys working on nuclear bases.

I mean, it's not like these are clowns.

It's a shame, you know.

I found it interesting that Chief Wiggins told of an account right off the coast of southern California, which you yourself had been investigating on your documentary series.

Seems to be something happening in that area.

And even TikTok was sort of near there, right, So there's a lot of activity in that area.

Yeah, I don't know what it is exactly, but I mean, you talk to any of these military guys, the Navy guys in particular, who are out there and stationed in that general area off southern California and Mexico, and they see this stuff on a regular basis.

Tictac was two thousand and four.

This incident the Chief Wiggins shared with us.

He was on the ship USS Jackson, and they had four tic TACs four one the first one that they saw on their radar system and then he saw it with its eyes, and then he went back into the radar the central control system, and there were four of these objects and they left all together.

There were four different points of lights, but it was like they were one object when it departed, and it was instantaneous.

That's not our technology.

What are they doing out there?

What is it that they're interested and why are they showing themselves Because clearly, if they didn't want us to see them, we wouldn't see them.

That's right.

We're going to take a break there, George.

We come back.

We're going to ask you about the possible benefits of passing one of these whistleblower protection bills or the UAP Disclosure Act itself.

You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network.

We are back on Beyond Contact, Captain Ron speaking with George Nap.

George, what are your thoughts on a whistleblower protection bill?

I know they're talking about introducing one.

If we get something past the truly protected whistleblowers, do you think we'd see a flood of people come forward.

I would hope.

So, you know, Tim Burchett, Congressman Burchett, who is a very savvy guy on this committee and this task course, has introduced such legislation.

I think there's a Senate equivalent, and there's hope that it would be attached to the larger UAP bill.

And it's needed because there are people, I mean, I'm in touch with them on a regular basis, Jeremy Corbell as well, guys who would like to tell a story but are scared legitimately scared.

These three who came forward, the three service members who testified.

It's brave.

It's a daunting thing to appear before Congress, swear an oath.

The whole world is watching.

You don't know what you're going to be asked, TV cameras from all over media, all over the world.

It's a daunting thing.

It takes bravery come forward, especially because there is a strong possibility that you will pay for coming forward and telling this story, and a couple of them already had.

We didn't hear the full story from Dylan Borland that will be coming out though soon.

There's some limits on what he can legally say.

He'd like to say more, but he worries that he's going to be targeted for prosecution or something worse.

Matt Brown is the guy who was sitting behind us at the hearing.

He was also offered as a possible witness, and maybe we'll be will be a witness and testify in a future hearing.

He's the guy who came up with the Immaculate Constellation documents a couple of months ago that Jeremy and I put out on a podcast.

He described to us extra legal things that happened to him and other witnesses who want to come forward as whistleblowers.

They get break ins in their homes.

There are a lot of games.

Their phones are tapped.

At his home, there was a break in.

They got IDs and stuff out of his wallet and his wife's wallet and put him across the couch and left them there.

They took his grandfather's ashes, his urn and dumped it out by the garbage.

I mean, it's a message, It's an intimidation message.

David Grush has had those kinds of things as far back as Bob Lazar.

They would break into his house, move things around, write things on the chuck board where he in his laboratory, and just mess with him, call and make threats, all kinds of extra legal things that I don't think even a Whistleblower Protection Act could change, because whoever's doing this stuff, whoever is trying to shut these people up, threatening their lives, it's working outside the legal system.

It's already illegal.

So I don't know that that would stop.

But at least Congress would be making a statement that we value that kind of testimony.

We want to protect you.

Come on in.

We'd like to hear more of it.

It's a good step in the right direction, I think, agreed.

What about this UAP Disclosure Act itself.

You know, as amazing as that act sounds to me, and Danny's all excited about it and he thinks it can really do some great things.

I fear even if we get that act passd I'm afraid that there'll be a little benefit because, how you aptly pointed out in your testimony at the hearing, these legacy protectors are farming this et tech out to private companies like Lockheed and raytheon and whatever right now.

So that's outside of congressional oversight.

So we really probably couldn't get much coverage from Congress anyway, right.

I think there are ways that this could be tracked down even if it has been taken outside the government, which I'm absolutely sure that it has.

These companies, these contracts, big defense contractors, aerospace companies have done for decades what we ask them to do.

And I know I've been one of those who've been critical of the Lockheeds of the world on the assumption that they've been hiding this big dark secret for so long.

But that's what they were asked to do by government, and they've done a good job of it.

I mean, I don't know how much progress they've made on the technology.

They have done exactly what we've asked, you know.

I'm not sure that they would be willing to give this stuff up after spending all these decades trying to figure it out.

I don't know if they've been paid for it, but to ask them just hand it over and face possible prosecution if they do not cooperate is a big ask.

I'd like to see some way that the Lockheeds of the world could be given an off rame.

As I said, I think they've done the job we ask them to do.

I don't think we they should be castigated for it.

But there has to be a way that there's a benefit for them in coming forward with this information and with the technology and it just admitting it to someone within the government.

I think there are ways to track this down, maybe financial audits of where money has changed hands for what program.

I suspect there was a congressional investigator that I interacted with back in the nineties who thought that that was the case, that tens of millions, maybe tens of billions of dollars had been funneled away from legitimate national security programs into this kind of research to keep it alive without congressional approval, without anyone's approval.

And he told me back then, look when this comes out, people are going to go to prison.

He never found it.

This Congress has not found it yet.

But they got to figure out a way to give an incentive to the companies have been holding this stuff to go ahead and cough it up, or at least acknowledge they've got it.

I think that they would like the help.

I anticipate that they would appreciate some assistance on figuring this out.

That's what I testified to with permission from people I'm close to, is that there was an effort during the offset program that was based here in Las Vegas, the DIA investigation, to change hands with some of that material that Lockheed agreed to hand it over.

There's another side to that agreement with the BASS and as AT people.

There's another side to that deal that has not been made public that I can't share, but there was something in it for both of them, and I think we got to figure out a way to have something in it for both sides if we're going to expect these big conglomerates to God just.

Turn it over, of course, and that's fair.

You know.

One of the central points you've said that what's been documented in government, military and intelligence agency records often contradicts the public narrative that UAPs are nothing, it's just misidentification.

Could these bills possibly help us to get at least some more of that documentation out?

I think so.

Here's the thing, and I said it in the testimony and I've said it before.

What hooked me on the subject was not aliens at Area fifty one or alien technology.

It was the paper trail.

As a journalist, I can't go out in the desert and find aliens or flying saucers, although I've done that hundreds of times unsuccessfully.

But if paper trail that exists, I could track that.

And that's what hooked me, because it is very clear that what the Department of Defense now the Department of War, the CIA, and other agencies say in public, there's nothing to it.

It's not a threat, we have it under control.

Don't worry your pretty little head in looking at UFOs.

Just move along, folks.

Nothing to see here.

Is completely contrary to what they said to each other behind closed doors.

Before FOYA existed, for the Freedom of Information Act was the law of the land, they would very candidly express, Hey, this stuff is real, it's from somewhere else.

It's not us, it's not Russians.

Where's it from.

We think it might be from outer space, extraterrestrial And they would say that candidly to each other.

At the same time they were saying that to each other, they told the public something completely different.

As I found out, that's exactly what they did in Russia too, and are still doing lying to the public about something that they say behind the scenes.

Now, after FOYA became the law of the land, they got a lot better at hiding stuff.

They no longer wrote these kind of candid statements, clear statements that this stuff is real, it's from somewhere else.

They couched it in weasel words and wouldn't give it away.

So the more recent documents are probably going to be harder to get anything good out of.

But there's a giant storehouse of previous documentation, assuming that hasn't been destroyed yet.

That paint's a very clear picture.

It's real, it's not us.

We need to get on it.

They feel somehow to me one step ahead all the time.

You know, this brings me to another frustrating thing for me personally.

George's what about how even in this specific hearing, Dylan Borland and I think someone else also expressed how they can't talk about these things in an open session.

They would say, I'll talk to you in a private skiff to discuss these matters.

But then they point out that the congress members themselves don't have the clearances to even go to the skiff to hear that information.

How do they even know what to ask?

It is frustrating, but it's the system we've set up, and somebody like Dylan who has quite a story to tell beyond what he could tell there.

Dylan has been through the Ringer, He's been through the ICIG, he's been to Arrow, He's been in these closed door skiffs type meetings where he reveals this stuff, and he's worried they're coming after him.

He has a good reason to be worried.

I'll tell you a story that didn't come out of that hearing.

Jeremy has been talking to Dylan longer than I have, but I've been talking to him for a couple of years we went back to see him after the last hearing.

The previous hearing in twenty twenty three, we went to go meet with Dylan and we went to a secret location.

We didn't tell anybody where it was going to be.

We met him in a public park south of Washington, d C.

Not even in the DC area, and we're going to meet him in this park early in the morning.

We pulled him this park.

Dylan's the only person there, but there's a vehicle.

There's a big black jeep blacked out windows sitting there and I'm just looking at and I go, you know, I don't feel comfortable sitting here.

This bothers me.

Let's go somewhere else.

We drove about fifteen miles away.

We found a little eatery that we're going to have a bite at.

We parked two blocks around a corner from that restaurant, and then we went in and had a talk and what we thought was a secure place.

We come out an hour and a half later, there's that same damn vehicle parked right up against our bunk, our bumper of our car.

It was making it very obvious to us.

Then, yeah, you're being followed.

How do you like Uh wow, that is incredible.

You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network.

We are back on Beyond Contact speaking with mister George Knapp.

George, I also find how strange all of this works.

Like we have these guys like luel A Zondo who will say I can't say that in a public forum.

I can talk, and then sometimes he kind of does say certain things.

Then you get a guy like hell put Off who's been pretty silent on this issue his whole life.

Then suddenly he shows up on Rogan and says, actually flat out says, the US has covered more than ten craft of unknown origin.

Doctor James Lkatski told you that he can say we recovered a craft, but he couldn't say much else, and that they told him it was okay to say that.

How does all this happen?

I don't know exactly what the rules are.

I can tell you this, I've heard those stories from those guys for a long time.

Was not allowed to say it or report it.

See you're not allowed to say it.

They're not allowed to say it.

Nobody's allowed us because a promise I made I made a promise to his sources.

It's a different kind of restriction.

You know, you're sure.

You make a promise, you've got to keep it.

If I violated that confidence, I'd be out of business.

You know, nobody's share that with you again.

People like Dylan Borland, they're trying to navigate this as carefully as they can.

They've been threatened, they've been intimidated, they've been warned you better be careful.

They've shared what they can in skiffs and in certain situations.

But there's a lot more they'd like to say.

I don't blame them for being careful.

Now.

Why how putoff could then say that on Joe Rogan?

He just might be the power of Rogan to overcome all resistance, I guess, But he did.

You know, I know that there are people like those guys, deep insiders, who spent their whole careers working on this stuff, who would like to say things, would like to say more.

Hall surprised me last year when he came forward with an admission that he'd been part of a secret study.

A bunch of braining acts like him were brought together.

I think back in the Bush administration, put in a room given access to all kinds of information, and given the assignment, is disclosure a good idea?

Should we disclose now?

Hypothetical exercise?

Well that a lot of the people who were there were predisposed to say, yes, yeah, we should.

The public has a right to know.

But as they sat there for a couple of days and kicked around the evidence and evaluated what the social impact would be, how our institutions were to react by the end of that exercise, after a couple of days, they came the conclusion, no, it's not a good idea because there would be repercussions.

There would be disruptions of social institutions.

People think they're ready for it.

We can handle it, we can handle the truth.

Well, are you sure, because what is the truth?

Yeah?

We don't know what the truth is that we're saying we're ready for.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, I can think of some pretty dark scenarios that I don't think the majority people would be ready for, even diehard UFO folks.

You know.

I'll also say this, I've been at this for thirty eight years, and I've been lucky to attach myself and get to know the smartest people who've worked the longest on the inside on this issue, I don't know a single person who can say for sure what it is, what is the truth?

I don't know anybody who knows it ets, time travelers, interdimensionals, crypto terrestrials, all of the above.

I don't know even some of the alleged witnesses and people whose claim contact EAT they've had contact experiences off.

Even someone as famous as Whitley says, I don't know what it is.

He calls them the visitors because he doesn't have a name for it.

You know.

Another aspect of the hearing I really enjoyed was how several people went at ARROW, including Representative Luna, who went so far as to call Sean Kirkpatrick a documented liar and bring into question with the purpose that he was even at ARROW four.

I've always personally felt that Arrow was not gathering information to share it with the public or with Congress, but rather just to see what we knew.

What do you think?

It certainly appears that Arrow is little more than a counterintelligence program.

I mean, I'm sure that there has people there, including the current director Kozlowski, who do want some answers, who would like to do an honest investigation but that organization has been so tainted by the stinch left behind by Sean Kirkpatrick.

You know, honest witnesses like Bob Salas, like Bob Jacobs, people like that that came forward, gave their story and then they were dismissed as liars or fanciful storytellers or grifters, dismissed outright.

I don't know anybody whose story was taken seriously.

I can't imagine a whistleblower or witness ever going to Arrow again, which is a shame, because, as I said, I think there are people there who'd like to be doing it.

It looks like they were seeing who would come forward, how much they'd tell, and now we know who these people are and where they are because they didn't act on any of that information.

That's exactly what it seems like, and it makes me sick to my stomach.

It was Grunge sign and Blue Book all over again.

Luna's flat out said she'd subpoena Kirkpatrick.

Do you think she would?

But the question does I fear that, As you pointed out, George, these guys can lie to protect their classification anyway.

I think she has a hankering to do exactly that.

I don't know if she'll be given subpoena power or not by the Oversight Committee chairman or not, but I think she had a right to be tipped off at Kirkpatrick.

He comes out with this juvenile statement before the hearing, just as soon as the witness names are announced, where he attacks her, He attacks the committee, the task force.

He has a nickname Luna's Lunatics.

What a thin skin butt had this guy is why he's been going from that job almost two years.

He comes out and attacks the witnesses as their fanciful storytellers and they just want attention or their grifters.

Not true one tiny bit for these guys.

They served their country admirably.

They're not there to grift here because they were invited by Congress to tell what they know.

Kirkpatrick uses these names that sounds like something a seventh grader would say to the kids out by the tether ball court or something, and is so thin skinned every time he opens his mouth.

It is further proof that he should never have been given that job.

And the terrible stain that he left on Arrow might be so deep that it could never be repaired.

It's a shame.

Oh, I think I think Arrow's done.

Who would go to Errow now, Like you said, nobody, it's a shame.

So we wanted to get to what did you think of the new Eric Berlasson video.

I know you had been familiar with that case, but now you saw the video in Congress?

What'd you think of that?

It was every bit as good as we were told that it was.

Jeremy and I have been told about it a couple of months ago, right after it had happened, and we were hoping, well, someday maybe we'll get that video.

Well there it was.

You know, I've seen some pretty reasonable explanations, not the typical debunkers who say, well it looks like a hellfire missile that hit a balloon, all right, So who authorized sending a hundred thousand dollars hell fire missile to take out a balloon over Yemen?

Number two?

Why did it bounce off?

Now I know this.

People have said, oh, it's didn't really deflect.

Well, I'm looking at it with my own eyes.

I am not an image analyst.

I don't work these radar platforms or sensor systems, so I'm not an expert.

Don't claim to be, But it sure as hell look to me like that missile bounced off and didn't explode, and then the four little things pop out or three little things and follow along with this balloon.

I mean I was.

Joking, moving at that rate of speed.

Yeah, and move with them.

We have been told there's another five minute long video.

The whole video is five minutes longer, and we're told that there is a report that list that object as a UAP, not as a balloon.

I mean, what kind of balloon is that super duper secret, hoothy balloon made out of titanium?

A led zeppelin?

You know what kind of it was.

I don't know what the explanation is, but I know that the explanations we heard so far just don't cut it.

Agreed, Okay.

It came up in the hearing that we may in fact be racing with other countries such as China and Russia and others to decipher these et technologies, and perhaps we don't want to reveal anything publicly to reveal to them what we know.

Do you think that's at least in part the reason for the secrecy.

Absolutely, I think it is the primary reason for the secrecy now and it's a reason why we haven't come forward and leveled with the public.

This has been told to me by a lot of people on the inside.

There's a name that you would know who shared it this way.

Just you can't tell your friends without telling your enemies.

We don't want to admit to Russia and China that we have this stuff and we're working on it and racing to figure it out, although they know we've got it and we know they've got it.

You know, I gave a couple of the names of the people who now I have not been told directly face to face.

Senator Howry Reid, the Senate Majority Leader.

Senator Howard Cannon, who was a four term senator from Nevada who tried with Mary Goldwater to get into Wright Patterson to see the goodies.

A guy named al O'Donnell who was the first general manager Egen g Here in Nevada, oversaw the Nevada Testing program, the atomic weapons program, and at Area fifty one.

All of them have told me that it's real and we've got this stuff.

And Red even knows from briefings that he had that the Russians and Chinese have it as well.

Maybe the Israelis and maybe the ir audiences as well.

So, you know, we need to be honest about it.

We need to keep a lid on what we want to share with the public.

But you can acknowledge in general what the whole world already knows, certainly the Russians and Chinese know, is that we've got this stuff and we're trying to figure out how to reduplicate it.

It also came up during that that there's this issue of overclassification.

Do you think that that's done intentionally just to further muddy the waters and make everything difficult to get to absolutely?

I mean, you know, there are so many examples of it, and it's not just in UFOs.

It's over classification of everything because they don't want to answer questions.

You know, it is ridiculous that there is one person in the entire United States government who is authorized as the spokesperson for any of these program Graham's dealing with UFOs, one woman who is a counterintelligence expert.

Psychological warfare was her specialty.

She's the belly button through which any answers to the public Eddy Foyer request must pass.

It's preposterous, it's ridiculous.

It absolutely is.

When you think of it on the face, it's just crazy.

When we come back, we're going to ask George about the name that he gave to Representative Luna when she asked the group for a name.

You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast Paranormal Podcast Network.

We're back on Beyond Contact talking with the great mister George Nap.

George.

During this hearing, Representative Luna asked all of you for a name that you guys could give her, and you spit out.

Glenn Gaffney, who was the former Director of Science and Technology at the CIA, what do you think I think he can provide to Congress?

What I was told is he was a direct contact and overseer with a couple of these aerospace companies about the goodies, where it went, what they were doing with it.

He was the point of contact for CIA Science and Technology on who did what without material And the reason it came up was during that AFSAP program, the DIA program based here in Las Vegas, Robert Bigelow went to Lockheed and tried to negotiate a transfer of materials.

He had spent a million dollars of his own money at Bigelow Aerospace to prepare his plant in the event that had started to receive that kind of material and to meet certain security standards that was required by the government.

He talked to him.

He talked face to face with this guy, James Ryder, a vice president of Lockheed, longtime guy, highly respected, who had offered to transfer certain materials that were hidden at a plant in southern California, give him to Bass to Bigelow in exchange for something else that I can't get into.

But A he's admitting they've got it.

B he admits that they don't exactly know what it is or how it was made.

More importantly, it appeared that, for example, it had been made in zero gravity.

Whoever made this stuff did it in a place We don't have any labs or factories in outer space in zero gravity, but whoever made it did so.

You know, that confirmed to me that they do have it, they're trying to figure it out, and they were willing to exchange some of it for something else that Lackheed needed.

What I was told was that this Glenn Gaffney guy hit the roof when he found out that Lockheed still had this stuff and that it was willing to change hands.

He stopped it dead cold, and then the guy that he was negotiating with, this vice president Lockheed, died and that was the end of that.

So I thought it went Bigelow, it would just get lost in there, just like it is in Lockheed, because that's a private company as well.

Bigelow is a guy who demands results.

He's not a patient man.

You know.

They were able to put us app together in an incredibly short period of time.

They had fifty full time investigators up and running, they got their security clearances, and they got to work like that.

If they'd been allowed to continue beyond twenty seven months, we might have a lot of answers because they created the world's largest UFO database, two hundred and forty thousand cases from all over the world.

And if they'd allowed to continue, Jock Bela was going to put an AI component over it and be able to connect the dots and all this data.

They produce more than one hundred highly detailed, highly technical papers, not one of which has ever been released.

So Bigelow is a tough guy to work for.

He cracks the whip, and I think if he'd got that material from Lockheed, we'd have some results by now, we'd have some answers.

Man, it's a shame that didn't happen.

You know, if tomorrow the government came clean and said, look, yes, UFOs are real, and they're not from here, like you said, a limited disclosure, what's the first question George Knapp would ask that government.

Well, I'd like to know where it came from.

Do we have any idea where it's from, Do we have any idea who made it?

And most importantly, what's their plan?

Are they here for good?

Are they trying to connect with us?

Have we had communications?

Do we have any idea?

Are they a threat in a long run?

My answer would probably be no, But again, nobody really knows.

So I'm really curious about who made it, where they're from, and what their plan is.

That's the core of this mystery.

And I don't expect to have an answer to any of those things while I'm alive.

I hope maybe younger folks like you might still be around when we hear some announcement.

But not holding my breath.

I love how in your testimony you said let's just call them aliens as a placeholder because we don't even know what we're really dealing with, which I always point to and I love the way you said that to Congress.

Last year, you did this great six episode documentary mini series called Investigation Alien on Netflix that explored why they may be coming here, whatever they or it is.

Do you have a best guess or gut feeling as to what the phenomenon might be doing here.

I think we might be an experiment.

I think they've been here basically as long or longer than us.

I think they might have had something to do with us and our evolution as.

A species and or seated us maybe right.

Yeah, something like that.

Maybe it did some genetic editing along the way to give us a little boot here and there.

I don't know where the experiment ends.

They clearly seem to have an interest in us.

I mean, they're also interested in the planet, maybe more interested in the planet, because that's the message that aliens, these beings have given to people like Whitley and other contact these when there is direct communication is look, quit blowing up nuclear bombs and take care of your planet.

I think long term, they care maybe more about the planet than they do us, But they're definitely interested in us.

They interact sometimes it's almost like parents interacting with us, and we're not very good kids either.

I really would like to be around when those answers come in, if they ever do.

Right now, we don't have them.

I just want to live that long.

That's it.

You mentioned it's possible that this is a government siop in your testimony, because they asked you that question.

Do you think it's maybe a combination of both a little bit of a syop with genuine UFO activity happening adjacent I do?

I know that they play games with that mind games with us.

They also take credit for things that they didn't really accomplish some Oh yeah, that's what that was us fooling the public.

Example, half of all UFO sightings in the fifties and sixties were US spyplanes like the U two and the SR seventy one.

I'm sorry, that's ridiculous.

The U two Does that look like a flying saucer?

Does it help how many of those that we have?

Yeah?

Yeah, they're designed not to be seen.

They're flown overseas, not here.

I mean the idea that a U two was going to land in a school yard and hover over your house or.

Literally laughable, George, literally laughable.

They made that story up retroactively.

They were like reverse engineered history, and they've done that with other things that I heard a story in the Wall Street Journal a couple of weeks before this hearing that said that whole Area fifty one thing that was made up, that was us.

We had an Air Force colonel who went out to Rachel gave them some fake UFO photos because we wanted to distract attention away from the real secret Inner A fifty one, the stealth fighter.

Well if that was your plan, just think how that worked out.

You think that because you plant the seed that is alien technology, that people are not going to be interested in it.

They're not going to be going out there.

I mean, we know what happen because of those stories.

They came out at eighty nine.

Every news organization in the world has been out there, tens of thousands of people out there in the desert with binoculars and telescopes every single day, Congressional investigators, all kinds of attention.

You think the Russians stopped looking at Area fifty one because we said it was alien technology, or would they increase I mean whoever came up with that proposal, that preposterous idea must have spent the last part of their Air Force career and Antarctica or something like that because it was not a very well thought out plan.

Right, They did the same thing with Roswell as they kept changing the story and the explanation as to what happened to Roswell, they would backward engineer a dumb idea.

Do you have any thoughts about the way people cover this topic.

Yes, the giggle factor has kind of gone away for the most part, which is wonderful.

But now we have social media and we have a thousand podcasters, and oftentimes this topic seems to get very sensationalized.

I want to see, how does all of this sit with you today.

Well, I'm glad that there's that kind of dialogue that the public has energized.

Segment of the public is energized and talks about it.

A lot of times.

It's circular though, it's the same people talking about the same stuff to each other.

That's why this congressional hearing breaks it out to a larger audience beyond just UFO world.

I remember when I first got involved in it.

You know, there's a steep learning curve ro on.

You know that to figure all this out, to become familiar with the paper trail of documents, with the key cases and good witnesses, it takes time to absorb all that.

You know.

There are people who get into this field because they want attention, there's something missing in their lives.

They make stuff up.

There's no standard for what a eufologist constitutes, what you have to do to be qualified as being one of those.

You don't need a degree to be a ufologist, and so a lot of people who become prominent in the field really have no business being considered authorities on it at all.

And then, in addition, the people who keep this secret, who have confused the public for so long, are way better at their job than people like I am at mind because they know their stuff.

They know how to deflect attention, change the subject a dispute, or put a witness in disrepute, sully their reputations.

They're good at it.

While they are on the defensive right now, they are not down and out.

They're dangerous people, and there's a long way to go before we can break through.

I do get discouraged sometimes by the enmity and nasty arguments in UFO world.

I am on the receiving end of it every single day of my life.

It does get discouraging if you let it, but you know, this is a noble cause.

I've seen in the last year and a half that the keepers of these secrets are still very powerful and very committed to that secrecy.

They enlist major media people, they've had briefings when they're going to put something out, have briefings for a select group of reporters who report things like they're just reprinting a press release, not asking tough questions, just going along with the flow.

People who work in national security, who cover the Pentagon on the CIA every single day, they develop friendships, relationships, and they do the bidding of these guys, often because it's just so much easier to make fun of the goofy UFO people wearing their you know, tinfoil hats and goofy beanies and T shirts than it is to do the hard work.

I saw that personally.

You know, I had these stories.

I was a legitimate reporter here in Las Vegas.

I still am, I think, and had broken some big stories, won a bunch of awards but once I did UFO stuff, suddenly I was alone.

I was crazy.

I mean, I got more pushback from my journalism colleagues here in Las Vegas than ever from the UFO crazies or debunkers.

They could not accept the fact that this supposedly respectable reporter was treating this topic seriously, and they pummeled me for years.

But they'd never done the work.

They'd never gone out and sitting in the desert.

It's fifty one night after night, year after year.

They hadn't read the books, they hadn't ooied the documents.

They hadn't met the witnesses or interviewed or sp spent time with them.

They hadn't done any of that.

It's just easier to make fun of it, and it's still easier to make fun of it.

But it's changing.

Well, let's hope.

So well.

Thanks George, I appreciate you taking the time today.

It was very informative, and thanks for all your work over the years.

I mean, you've done an invaluable amount of contribution to this and we all appreciate it.

Thanks Ron, I'll see you on the trail.

Absolutely.

You can find George at k l a S TV.

In Las Vegas and on his Weaponized podcast with Jeremy Corbel, and of course you can also hear him on Coast to Coast AM.

You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at c I T D Underscore Captain Ron.

Stay connected by checking out Contactinthethdesert dot com.

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