[SPEAKER_04]: Now, playing, open, floor.

[SPEAKER_05]: This is open floor.

[SPEAKER_05]: Sports Illustrated's Chris Manix back at.

[SPEAKER_05]: An NBA podcast with Sports Illustrated Senior Writer.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's time that the world gets to know.

[SPEAKER_05]: My guy, Chris Manix.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think your opinion's shared by everyone.

[SPEAKER_05]: And now it begins.

[SPEAKER_05]: Now it begins.

[SPEAKER_05]: All right, we are back.

[SPEAKER_05]: Chris Manix, Rachel Nichols, Fox Sports, all the smoke, monumental sports network right here on this pot every week.

[SPEAKER_05]: And we are here in studio in Los Angeles where it was a bomby 80 degrees today, Rachel.

[SPEAKER_05]: 80 degrees in Los Angeles.

[SPEAKER_05]: Every time I think about like, why do I live here now?

[SPEAKER_05]: I'm more of an East Coast guy.

[SPEAKER_05]: I was in Boston over the weekend and we're dropped to the 40s.

[SPEAKER_05]: I come back on Monday and it's, [SPEAKER_05]: 80 degrees in mid-Dovember.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're about to talk about Detroit.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not already.

[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, no, no, no, no.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's like, all those winters I spent in Boston where it's like, January February, you really start to rethink life choices.

[SPEAKER_05]: You know that from DC, like, you just wonder, like, what am I doing with my life that I am putting up with this for two months?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's how I feel being on this pod with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Ah, that's, you know what?

[SPEAKER_05]: This is what you're doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're doing it with my life.

[SPEAKER_05]: We got to week.

[SPEAKER_05]: You are here every single week.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just that they're going, what am I doing with my life?

[SPEAKER_05]: All right, well, there's no real way to transition onto this one, but a lot to get into on the show.

[SPEAKER_05]: The pistons we're going to talk about playing great basketball.

[SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to take a bit of a victory lap for being the only one out there in the top 100 rankings of player rankings who had Cade coming him in the top 10.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's like a pretty damn good right now, Rachel, we're talking about the Clippers.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know where they're going to go.

[SPEAKER_05]: The Mavericks, Nico Harrison, the Nico Harrison era could be coming to an end and you have got some scorching hot take on Spencer Haywood that you're trying to get out.

[SPEAKER_05]: You're just trying to get out.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're eager to get out.

[SPEAKER_05]: We do have to stop some unfortunate news, Lenny Wilkins.

[SPEAKER_05]: Hall of Famer both as a player and as a coach passed away this week, 15 year NBA career, 1300 wins as an NBA coach for a while.

[SPEAKER_05]: They had the all-time coaching record before he was passed by Don Nelson later passed by Greg Popovich.

[SPEAKER_05]: One of five men that were inducted into the Hall of Famer as both a player and a coach.

[SPEAKER_05]: So really one of the most accomplished guys [SPEAKER_05]: that you'll ever see in the NBA.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I thought one of the most interesting things about Lenny was he accrued all those wins.

[SPEAKER_05]: He accrued a lot of losses too.

[SPEAKER_05]: He had losses on his resume.

[SPEAKER_05]: But he had those marks when, if you look at the teams that he coached, the only in his prime Hall of Famer that Lenny coach was Dominique Wilkins in Atlanta.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like he had some good players, but they were back end or before their prime, [SPEAKER_05]: bad teams that he was coaching on the teams he coached and landed with Nick.

[SPEAKER_05]: That was the only in his prime Hall of Fame player that Lenny coach still got to 1,300 plus wins.

[SPEAKER_05]: Just a, you know, a legend in multiple cities, one in Seattle, of course, but a loss for the NBA.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, very sad.

[SPEAKER_01]: Who did he beat to win that title in Seattle?

[SPEAKER_05]: Was it the Boston Celtics?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, it was the Washington Bullets.

[SPEAKER_05]: It was the Washington Bullets.

[SPEAKER_05]: I was like, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they won in 78, which I'm too young to remember.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they lost in 79.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is Washington, not, not a Lenny, obviously.

[SPEAKER_01]: And which I'm also too young to remember.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they've stuck pretty much ever since, which I am not too young to remember.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, they're turning things around.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like their young players right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually, I'm obviously biased, but I'm actually encouraged right now.

[SPEAKER_05]: you just turn that right to a wizard's mom right there did you?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying, let he welcomes his responsible for some things that made me sad.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm sad he's dead because he was I mean, look, you just wrap it all off a bunch of stats and accomplishments and that's great.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's someone who is around the game a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: overlapping with our careers.

[SPEAKER_01]: He stayed active.

[SPEAKER_01]: He saw him plays as you talk to him.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was just so gracious, very interested in the younger stars in the game.

[SPEAKER_01]: We, of course, always see, you know, some older members of the fraternity who are, you know, kittens today and when I played and all of that and he was just not like that when I was around him.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was excited about things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Love Shaquille O'Neill.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it was just a real statement for the NBA and he'll be very missed.

[SPEAKER_05]: a Hall of Famer as a player, and when I call Lenny Wilkins Slight, I mean Slight.

[SPEAKER_05]: He was six foot nothing, 170 pounds of nothing in his playing days.

[SPEAKER_05]: He was, I don't even think he could dunk.

[SPEAKER_05]: He was a not your typical NBA athlete.

[SPEAKER_05]: Still carved out a 15-year career, great coach, great man, definitely will be missed.

[SPEAKER_05]: All right.

[SPEAKER_05]: Let's start by talking about the Detroit business.

[SPEAKER_05]: Who I think are one of the best stories in the NBA right now.

[SPEAKER_05]: They are as we record this eight and two on the season very easily.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, they had a little bit of a rocky start to start the year, but they've been on a run as of late.

[SPEAKER_05]: Some of the things that stick out to me about Detroit, they are relentless when it comes to points in the paint.

[SPEAKER_05]: They're averaging about 60 points per game in the paint around 300 points total paint touches on the season.

[SPEAKER_05]: Against Brooklyn last week, they had 80 points in the paint.

[SPEAKER_05]: Now, that may be more of a referendum on the net.

[SPEAKER_05]: So it's going to say is on the pistons, but that's a huge number.

[SPEAKER_05]: Jalen Durin is having a fantastic year, Kate Cunningham, what I just mentioned.

[SPEAKER_05]: These are two guys averaging like 14, 13, 14 points on the paint per game for this team.

[SPEAKER_05]: Did they're just a relentless bunch?

[SPEAKER_05]: a great defensive team top three in the NBA defensively and looking very much like a team that can win these turn conference.

[SPEAKER_05]: What do you think of the way Detroit's plan right now as any of its surprise do and do think it's sustainable over a long period of time?

[SPEAKER_01]: I certainly think it could be.

[SPEAKER_01]: We saw what a big leap they took last year.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think they could take an equally big leap.

[SPEAKER_01]: this year to put themselves in that top of the conference conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kate Cunningham was the number one overall draft pick for a reason, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is a guy who we expected a lot of and he has delivered.

[SPEAKER_01]: He had the same learning curve.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone else does at least everyone, not named Victor Webinarma, but he is absolutely delivered.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's a hard worker.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've talked about this last season even when they were making their first big leap there.

[SPEAKER_01]: players on that team love him.

[SPEAKER_01]: They love him because of his sort of locker room presence.

[SPEAKER_01]: They love him on the court and how much he is clearly interested in having them succeed.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've had player after player in that locker room tell me, no, he's gone to coach and said, hey, [SPEAKER_01]: Give him a little bit more of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll take a couple of less minutes here or there.

[SPEAKER_01]: This kind of thing because he wants the guys on his team to do well.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you mentioned Jaylander and he has obviously been the hugeest beneficiary of all of that this year.

[SPEAKER_01]: He and Kate, Picking Roll, I mean, it has been really just tremendous to see Jayland's growth.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I attribute at least some of that to Kate kind of him, that's just...

[SPEAKER_01]: You need to have a leader who will do both, as they say, who can himself take over a game and also who can empower the teammates.

[SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned the beginning of the season.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think you heard cutting him say, I didn't really expect the double teams to come quite this way and from quite so far off the court.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, I'll do better.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll figure that out.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he absolutely has delivered on that.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's no question.

[SPEAKER_05]: All right.

[SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to take this moment to look.

[SPEAKER_05]: right into the camera.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do it, do it, do it, do it.

[SPEAKER_05]: And to tell all the people on social media and in my text messages that laughed at the idea that I would have Kade Cunningham in the top 10 in SIs top 100 all of you [SPEAKER_05]: Why it?

[SPEAKER_05]: Nobody's talking now.

[SPEAKER_05]: Name me more than four or five guys.

[SPEAKER_05]: You would start your team with more than you would kid coming in.

[SPEAKER_05]: Four or five guys that are playing better than kid coming in.

[SPEAKER_05]: Of course in the West, Wemba Yama, you would.

[SPEAKER_05]: Shay, you probably would.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yokech, even at these a little bit up there in age now, but you still probably would.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yannis in the East, great player.

[SPEAKER_05]: But outside of those guys, [SPEAKER_05]: Cade coming him is the man.

[SPEAKER_05]: Cade coming him is, Luke up, sorry, Luke is, I was going to bring Luke up because Cade coming him is the closest thing to Luke at Donchitch, this side of Luke at Donchitch, like he plays like Luke, he gets into the paint, he's averaging like tennis this game, like he's, he's a playmaker first and foremost and he's a big guy, he's physical.

[SPEAKER_05]: Big God, Luke, that's second half he played against Philadelphia, where he had a stinker in the first half.

[SPEAKER_05]: Two points in the first half.

[SPEAKER_05]: 24 points in the second half against the 76 is again.

[SPEAKER_05]: That may say something about the 76 are defense.

[SPEAKER_05]: But Cade coming in, going off in the second half, taking command of a game and helping that team win close.

[SPEAKER_05]: That is another step forward.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think you're 100% right.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think Cade, [SPEAKER_05]: You know, soft, tough defenses last year, but coming into this year, I think he took some time, a short period of time, but it took some time for him to adjust to everybody knowing he's the number one option.

[SPEAKER_05]: Everyone knowing he's the guy on that team.

[SPEAKER_05]: Once he adjusted, it was a wrap.

[SPEAKER_05]: And that guy, back to you camera.

[SPEAKER_05]: That guy is a top 10 player in the NBA.

[SPEAKER_05]: He was before the start of the season.

[SPEAKER_05]: He is right now, and everybody next year is gonna have him right where I had him this year.

[SPEAKER_05]: Inside that top 10, but it's not just Kade Cunningham to your point there.

[SPEAKER_05]: Jill and Durin, he is an automatic 2010 almost every single night.

[SPEAKER_05]: His, his per 36 minute numbers are insane.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like he's only average like 27 minutes a game and he's giving you close to 2010.

[SPEAKER_05]: His per 36 are ridiculous.

[SPEAKER_05]: another guy, by the way, better himself in the contract negotiations.

[SPEAKER_05]: God knows what he's going to get in the free it in the office.

[SPEAKER_05]: He doesn't not, isn't a three-point shooter.

[SPEAKER_05]: He is an oak tree in the middle, rebounding, blocking shots, setting screens.

[SPEAKER_05]: He's going to be worth a ton of money.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't think these things surprise me, but two things I was looking for with Detroit to start the season.

[SPEAKER_05]: One was with their young players taking another step.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like they surprised everybody last year.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, how many was a 31 improvement from the year before?

[SPEAKER_05]: It was a remarkable run.

[SPEAKER_05]: Now you need to take them to take one more step.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I wondered that.

[SPEAKER_05]: And they have, Cade, Jalen Dern, Oster Thompson, the lesser known Thompson, maybe, but still a really good player, top defensive player, given you like 13 points of game.

[SPEAKER_05]: He's been good for them.

[SPEAKER_05]: And the other, [SPEAKER_05]: factor in with the pistons that I was looking for was you know they made some changes with their veterans like they mixed they swapped out some guys yeah and so I wondered if the chemistry they had last year with the veterans that were there would be matched with the guys that they brought in and out but they lost Malik Beasley they replaced them with Dunkin Robbs.

[SPEAKER_05]: Dunkin Robbs is you're in better than 40% from three.

[SPEAKER_05]: Carousel alert off the bench 41% from three so the veterans [SPEAKER_05]: And the veterans they have to buy his house not have a great shooting here, but he's still really valuable guys, especially in the locker.

[SPEAKER_05]: Really good leader leader guy.

[SPEAKER_05]: Those veterans have worked as well.

[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm a believer.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, if they were in the west, maybe not, but they're in the east.

[SPEAKER_05]: Everybody's a player that plays like Detroit right now in the east.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mentioned them being physical.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they've had a bunch of injuries, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, to play like this and have us having this conversation is really fascinating.

[SPEAKER_01]: They lead the MBA in points in the paint.

[SPEAKER_01]: Who is it?

[SPEAKER_01]: Isaiah Stewart, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: He just got hurt.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he's able to stretch the floor.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, who is the last injury?

[SPEAKER_01]: Isaiah Stewart, as we said here today.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there's a list.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's an injury list.

[SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe that will start to catch up with them if they don't get some guys back soon, but the fact that they're doing it with these guys out, I think is really, really impressive.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, they have just been tough as nails, giving that Detroit energy, you know, if they're not exactly the bad boys, they're not exactly the 2004 pistons, but they have their own toughness that you really sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I just, I like this team, they're fun to watch.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, they're physical and that begins with Jalen Durin on down.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mentioned the defense last year, they were top, right around the top 10, 10 or 11, in defense efficiency, right now they're in the top three, opponent shooting just 42.4% against them.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's second in the NBA.

[SPEAKER_05]: So look, their offense isn't even clicking all the way.

[SPEAKER_05]: They're kind of a middle of the pack offensive team and they probably, [SPEAKER_05]: Like if they want to take another step to a championship team, they probably need one more piece.

[SPEAKER_05]: Let's just get their pieces back.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're missing two starters and some rotation players.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's see what they have.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then by the trade deadline, we should be able to see where we are.

[SPEAKER_05]: We look at them and now we're kind of nitpicking.

[SPEAKER_05]: Now they're contender in the east.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_05]: They're not on Oklahoma City Denver, that kind of level just yet, at least not to me.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think they're one piece of weight from that.

[SPEAKER_05]: Now maybe you don't need to go get that this year.

[SPEAKER_05]: But do you think they still need that?

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, do you think or do you think this current crop is more development can like, who's going to be the guy opposite kid cutting out?

[SPEAKER_01]: Who is from Detroit?

[SPEAKER_01]: who you have been trying to get traded off of his team.

[SPEAKER_05]: I've never tried to get a lot of guys traded off of their teams for over a year.

[SPEAKER_05]: We're not talking about Janis because he's from Detroit.

[SPEAKER_05]: Nope.

[SPEAKER_05]: We'll have been trying to trade.

[SPEAKER_05]: Drain mod?

[SPEAKER_05]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: Think about the suns.

[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, Kevin Booker.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sounds a plain okay though.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't think I can't see that is via.

[SPEAKER_05]: See the guy like Evan Turner I talked about this last week.

[SPEAKER_05]: The guy I'm watching the closest over the next couple of months is Laura marketing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because Laura marketing has a lot of places.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of places where he could fed you.

[SPEAKER_05]: He fits everything.

[SPEAKER_05]: This is something that will hearty told me when I talk to him last week and will wasn't saying this in the context of like, hey, here's my sales pit for you to go out and get Larry Markon.

[SPEAKER_05]: He's saying he works here because whatever system we play, he fits in.

[SPEAKER_05]: He just need the ball.

[SPEAKER_05]: And that to me is like a perfect piston.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like Larry Markon is price tags heavy five-year deal 250 million bucks, but at one point he was average in 30, you know, at one point he was the only guy in the league along with a two guys him and Janis with a two guys average in 30 and six He's a three-point shooter.

[SPEAKER_05]: He plays both front court positions like that guy makes a lot of sense to make sense at a lot of places But yeah, I got some draft capital.

[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe you deal a young guy like Jake Nivey like you can [SPEAKER_05]: You can do some things to get like, yeah, not for the car before the horse got months to go for the trade deadline.

[SPEAKER_05]: But that would be a guy I would look at hard by was the, that was the trick business.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you're right, they have assets.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, they've got the deals to make.

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[SPEAKER_05]: All right, from the positive to the negative.

[SPEAKER_05]: your Los Angeles Clippers rich.

[SPEAKER_00]: But they are mine now.

[SPEAKER_00]: We just discussed my wife and the wizard.

[SPEAKER_05]: No, no, no, no, no, you are.

[SPEAKER_05]: You have been adopted by the LA Clippers.

[SPEAKER_05]: You are a disciple of Ty Loo.

[SPEAKER_05]: I did.

[SPEAKER_05]: I did.

[SPEAKER_05]: I did.

[SPEAKER_05]: I did.

[SPEAKER_05]: I did.

[SPEAKER_05]: I did.

[SPEAKER_05]: We're taping this on Mondays.

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't know what happened.

[SPEAKER_05]: We're taping this on Mondays.

[SPEAKER_05]: We're taping this before Mondays game against Atlanta.

[SPEAKER_05]: But going into this game, they lost four and a row five of the last six.

[SPEAKER_05]: Their defense stinks.

[SPEAKER_05]: Their defense is so bad.

[SPEAKER_05]: It is inexplicable how bad their defense is.

[SPEAKER_02]: How bad is it?

[SPEAKER_05]: Let me throw some numbers at you last year.

[SPEAKER_05]: They were third in defensive rating.

[SPEAKER_05]: They were a defensive minded team this year entering Monday's game.

[SPEAKER_05]: They are 26th.

[SPEAKER_05]: They're 26th in defensive rating.

[SPEAKER_05]: How does a team that returns most of its core?

[SPEAKER_05]: Go from 3rd to 26.

[SPEAKER_05]: Explain that to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Two things.

[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, normal pal.

[SPEAKER_05]: Don't look at we can get to know what I thought they missed no problem or offensively the defensive I just think that the mindset I was that's what's going to say I think they're great.

[SPEAKER_05]: You're my me too Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think they miss him a lot all over the floor in the locker room.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that is not a small piece of it Also when you told me you texted me you said, oh, I want to talk about the clippers too And I said great.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll spend the next few hours coming up with synonyms for the word old so I have elderly mature aged long on the tooth [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, when you get to the second Roves and the Nymphs, it says, bygone past the clippers have to hope that road.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, drop by, yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, if you've heard like a young person describe a spray.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's always a people.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but no one's describing the clippers spray right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Their pace is just, I mean, the game tips off in a few hours.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they might not get there for another five or six.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it has been really rough.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is the other answer to your question, which is, yes, James Harden played for him.

[SPEAKER_01]: actually pretty strong defense passable for the rest of the league, but definitely come some of the best offensive effort we have seen out of him.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is a point where you age past being able to do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think when the collective is not pulling it together when there is no normal to bark in your ear.

[SPEAKER_01]: when Bradley Beale has been sadly a turn style for a lot of PCs and so far when it collectively doesn't feel like you can make that much of a difference history has said James Harden will not try to make that much of a difference and you just have got his Chris Paul is not what Chris Paul used to know first of Chris Paul I mean God they're ugly.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you know, the expression played to the wheels fall off, this, this may be it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And look, it's great.

[SPEAKER_01]: He gets to retire as a clipper.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, Kawaii as we said here's a prize to been that bad.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like, he wasn't terrible with the spurs like you play every game.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I am surprised.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm surprised with all of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I do think there is a collective wear and tear here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Each one of those guys in terms of their age, I think feeding off of each other, oh, I'm, you know, one guy's flow, the other guy's flow again, no one on this team except for maybe why can go out there and feel like I can make the difference because there are so many other pieces that are dragging the whole ship down to use a clippers analogy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Klai has heard again.

[SPEAKER_05]: But he wasn't hurt before this, like, no, I knew it.

[SPEAKER_05]: Playing in these games.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I knew it.

[SPEAKER_05]: It was still 26, 27, the defensive efficiency.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think there is a collective drag on the organization giving all of the stuff that broke in training camp and sort of the Steve Bomber and Kauai of it all?

[SPEAKER_05]: Very possible.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think personnel is a bigger issue.

[SPEAKER_05]: And what doesn't surprise me is that all of these sort of bargain basements signings haven't really worked because they almost never work.

[SPEAKER_05]: They're almost always [SPEAKER_05]: Great in a press release, great at media day, but then when it plays out, you start to realize why these guys were available.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like Chris Paul was available because he's 40 years old then isn't the Chris Paul of old.

[SPEAKER_05]: Bradley Beale was available because there was only a couple of teams looking to sign him after being waived by Phoenix and his numbers had been.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, Bradley Bill shooting 37.5% from three entering this game on Monday, Chris Paul, a 24%.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, that's bad.

[SPEAKER_05]: And this is where like, you know, John Collins has been fine.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't think he's a problem.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: Um, but.

[SPEAKER_05]: they really believed like when they did this deal the trade poll they like are we're gonna get Bradley built so they knew that that was very to complete like we're gonna get John Collins it's gonna take some pressure off quiet in that front court because he can play four sometimes five and we're gonna get Bradley peel and he's gonna give us like 75% of what normal poll gave us there I mean I do think they underestimated [SPEAKER_05]: what Norman Powell brought to the locker room.

[SPEAKER_05]: The swagger that he played with you remember last year.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, of course.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we don't need Paul George.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right, Paul George, who he said would be better defensively than he was right.

[SPEAKER_03]: No, he said addition vice of traction.

[SPEAKER_05]: I know, but he wrecked 100%.

[SPEAKER_05]: And he was, and he was pointing the defensive end mostly.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think people were like, Paul George.

[SPEAKER_05]: So he's a.

[SPEAKER_05]: complete defensive player.

[SPEAKER_05]: He's a versatile guy.

[SPEAKER_05]: He's like, now we're good.

[SPEAKER_05]: And they weren't.

[SPEAKER_05]: He talked the talk and he walked the walk there.

[SPEAKER_05]: They miss him.

[SPEAKER_05]: He's been great in Miami so far this season.

[SPEAKER_05]: I just think they're really old.

[SPEAKER_05]: They're really old.

[SPEAKER_05]: They're not especially athletic.

[SPEAKER_05]: The older guys they got have looked even older than they did in in previous years.

[SPEAKER_05]: They turn the ball over a lot.

[SPEAKER_05]: And when they turn it over, they give up points almost every time.

[SPEAKER_05]: They don't get back on transition defense.

[SPEAKER_05]: I'm not a big, like, those t-shirts that they were wearing.

[SPEAKER_05]: Remember the whole, like, I think it was FU CK.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think it was, like, it looked like a red-like transition.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was a whole, almost trans thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Jeff and Gundy.

[SPEAKER_05]: Jeff and Gundy.

[SPEAKER_05]: Jeff and Gundy, still a great defensive mind.

[SPEAKER_05]: This team here and this, Jeff and Gundy team be in this bad.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Tyloo, they both have to be like tearing their hair out.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's a good point, do you believe that there's a lingering effect to the Kawai bomber saga that's still kind of hanging over this team?

[SPEAKER_01]: I just think it's a lot of things at once, and again, that's sort of my analogy for the whole team.

[SPEAKER_01]: You've got a lot of things going on at once, so it is very hard for anyone individually to be like, man, if I go out and kill it, it's going to be enough.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that translates to into sort of the aspiration stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the quiet of it all.

[SPEAKER_01]: And all of that, it just feels like there's so much dragging.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody down.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this team really leans into its water analogies with the way they do the in-game video.

[SPEAKER_01]: When they've got that big wave and they've got the thunderstorm.

[SPEAKER_01]: they feel like they're drowning.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and I'm not sure who's going to pick them up out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the contract with Kauai that we've been talking about at Nauzi.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, inspiration.

[SPEAKER_01]: It feels like, no, not that good.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a current contract.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they've got one more guaranteed year there.

[SPEAKER_01]: right they've got one more year at 50 basically 50.3 million you know when does this become a tear down do you start trying to get rid of pieces of the trade deadline does anyone want these pieces of the trade deadline do you just wait Oklahoma City has their they have 2026 picked they have this pick coming I I I should have this information on hand but Oklahoma City is still got one of their picks [SPEAKER_05]: moving forward.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even talking about tanking, although that's an element.

[SPEAKER_01]: We sat down, I'm thinking, you know, well, I mean, eventually sure tanking, but I just almost mean, there's a point where young players hungry players are going to give you more than some of these got.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, we're at that point with Cam Christie.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, that Cam Christie's eight and a fifth in Chris ball.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: As I'm talking about, I mean, regardless of yes, direction of the franchise, et cetera, tanking, whatever, but I even mean right now on this roster.

[SPEAKER_01]: and maybe you bring in some other young guys who, at least her cheaper, and are hungrier.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because you're just not getting that hunger.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're just not getting that from any of these guys.

[SPEAKER_05]: No, it's very uninspired.

[SPEAKER_05]: You know, you're playing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I do.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel you're right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am a Tilew Devotee.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think he's one of the best ex-ino-coaches in the league and one of the best motivators I've seen in the league.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if he can't do it, I just, [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not seeing it happen.

[SPEAKER_05]: I just don't know what their options are at this point, because they're not in the position because of what they owe draft-wise.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_05]: Just looking at it now.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's not going to, that doesn't help them rebuild in the future.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's concerning that they've been this mediocre with Kawaii-Lendard playing in the majority of their games.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's concerning to see Bradley Beale and Chris Paul [SPEAKER_05]: replace the production of Norman Powell.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, it's concerning to see a team with like, you know, this many plus defenders.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like Chris Dunn is a plus defender.

[SPEAKER_05]: Kawai Leonard when he's playing is a plus defender.

[SPEAKER_05]: Zuboch is a plus defender.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_05]: And they're sitting there at 26.

[SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[SPEAKER_05]: In the league, and a lot of that is, you know, the whole transition defense stuff.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like they can't get back, but I don't know.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I think the question is, it's both like, do they go that route and try to shake up [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, just what else can you do just kind of plow through and hope that this defense, which still has a lot of the same pieces gets better of the course of a season.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, done his back in the starting lineup.

[SPEAKER_01]: I went to the Thunder Clippers game that was here.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was maybe three or four games, two games ago, something like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: She loves playing.

[SPEAKER_01]: These are the Netflix things.

[SPEAKER_01]: She loves playing.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, like that's a guy doesn't get like I've been working on something with him.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like, no, I don't even think like winning a championship was great, but even that it barely moves the, he could just, he just doesn't move the needle with him.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like his heart rates days the same.

[SPEAKER_05]: Go and Delay to play the Clippers.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's one of the things that picks up the heart rate.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like just knowing that they moved off of him, like it didn't believe him.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think that that definitely sticks in the root of him.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's just how much this one trade has crippled this franchise.

[SPEAKER_05]: Oh God, now 2,000, so Chase first year was the bubbly year, so 2,019.

[SPEAKER_01]: So 2,000, I'm looking, 2,026, I think they have been two from Memphis.

[SPEAKER_05]: But they owe one more picked Oklahoma.

[SPEAKER_05]: I know Oklahoma's got whether it's a swap or a pick.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a swap that involves Brooklyn.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's just, I mean, it's like one of these, look, it's like a whole paragraph, swaps.

[SPEAKER_01]: And okay, see as the right to swap, 2027 first round.

[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe that's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's the one they still have, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Philly still has the right to swap.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's 2029 first round, Pera.

[SPEAKER_05]: or all as well in L.A.

right now.

[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, oh, it's going well.

[SPEAKER_05]: But they're old.

[SPEAKER_05]: They're on athletic.

[SPEAKER_05]: They thought they could squeeze more out of the quiet James Harden tandem.

[SPEAKER_05]: It doesn't look like it's going in that direction.

[SPEAKER_05]: Zuboch is still good.

[SPEAKER_05]: He's young.

[SPEAKER_05]: When the few young pieces you can still build around, but I just don't see how they turn this around.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't, I don't see a team that I thought fully health of the contend to compete with the Clippers or with the Clippers with the nuggets and the [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think.

[SPEAKER_01]: Did you really think they compete with the third?

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't think it was.

[SPEAKER_05]: That is best.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's still one of the best playoff performers in the game.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it's been a long time.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's been that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's got a play.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, it's just, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the Lakers, I picked the Lakers going into the season around number, to finish around number four.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the Lakers.

[SPEAKER_00]: The Lakers.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that is higher than a lot of people have them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And who knows if they'll end up there, a little higher, a little lower.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's, I still think watching this team.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the right target mark.

[SPEAKER_01]: I thought the clippers would end up being around number six.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even think that's reachable anymore.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, play in.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, they barely got out of the play in last year.

[SPEAKER_05]: They needed a couple of big wins at the end of the year to get into that mix.

[SPEAKER_05]: And they might be right in that play in mix again this year.

[SPEAKER_00]: From bad to worse, you're going 70 different directions here.

[SPEAKER_05]: Your Dallas Mavericks.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God.

[SPEAKER_05]: all the teams are standing right right thank you thank you for heaping all of these on me I feel for I I definitely feel for Dallas Matt Madrex fans you got it three and seven the Dallas Madrex we take this only the pelicans have a worst record again we're recording before their game on Monday night a game that is being attended [SPEAKER_05]: by the team governor, Patrick Dumont, which I believe is the first game is attended since the opener of the season.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think since training camp was he even there?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think he was at the open.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I saw it.

[SPEAKER_05]: Tim McMan tweet said he was at the open room.

[SPEAKER_05]: I wouldn't surprise you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_05]: uh...

first game there and this comes amid i would say swirling rumors isn't enough of a a a a metaphor there i would say it's a hurricane of rumors a tornado of rumors around in the future [SPEAKER_05]: of Nico Harrison, Nico Harrison, of course, made the deal to trade Luka donches just about a year ago.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't think it's not even been a year yet.

[SPEAKER_05]: They made the deal to trade Luka donches and everything that could go wrong has gone wrong since then.

[SPEAKER_05]: You've had Kyrie Irving, suffer a ACL tear towards the end of last season.

[SPEAKER_05]: Anthony Davis is battling through injuries mixed to six consecutive game on Monday night with a calf injury, which you know is terrifying for teams.

[SPEAKER_05]: We hear about that calf injury because you don't know what it could lead to.

[SPEAKER_05]: This team cannot get anything done offensively.

[SPEAKER_05]: Nothing, they are abysmal, not the worst team in the league in offensive rating, but they are 29th in the league, Indiana is worse because Indiana's lost everybody, but the the Mavericks are 29th as we take this offensive rating and they are a full two points [SPEAKER_02]: worse than your washed in wizards they lost the wizards they lost to the pelicans you're like oh except for the pelicans they lost to the pelicans they lost to the wizards those are some of their losses yeah i mean it's just barely beat them the other night yes this barely we're losing that game yeah yes and uh who who uh [SPEAKER_01]: Russell was minus 18 in that game.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know what they mean?

[SPEAKER_05]: You know, can I say just say one thing, like not to defend other podcasts, or Bill Simmons took some heat for, I think you called the Angela Russell, like the guy you'd like coming over the party earlier than you wanted to leave.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's not wrong about that.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like the Angela Russell, like, the, the, the, [SPEAKER_05]: The anticipation of the Angela Russell and like the vibe from the Angela Russell and maybe you look at like basketball reference with the numbers on the Angela Russell You're like I thought I you know that if we can get him to be a stopgap guy for Kyrie or we're gonna be okay, and then the Angela Russell comes out and Just does what we've seen him do really every year for the last few years.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can't have been paying attention and thought that was a good strong Oh, this will hold the tide while Kyrie is out move [SPEAKER_01]: you just can't.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that might have been what the best available to them was, considering Nico spent so much capital building a team around Luca Dantuch to Luca's strengths.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was why they got to the NBA finals.

[SPEAKER_01]: And look, we're going to talk about when is Nico going to get fired because it really does seem to be a win instead of an if.

[SPEAKER_05]: I feel just my reporting is it's day-to-day with Nico Harrison and Dallas, that's the messaging I've been getting from people either directly in the know or sort of in the know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nico, who, first of all, had a very distinguished career in the NBA before he became General Manager when he was at Nike, who had a very good [SPEAKER_01]: beginning start with the mavericks.

[SPEAKER_01]: When they got to the finals, it was because of a bunch of trades and contracts that people thought, nuss and workouts are well, and they worked out.

[SPEAKER_01]: All of those bets paid off.

[SPEAKER_05]: Daniel Gafford, DJ Washington, all those guys paid off.

[SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[SPEAKER_01]: You talk about the guys around the margins.

[SPEAKER_01]: You say, oh, it hasn't paid off anywhere for the clippers.

[SPEAKER_01]: It paid off all of those paid off for the Dallas Mavericks.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to say you don't want to judge anyone by their worst day or their worst decision.

[SPEAKER_01]: The problem is, Niko's worst day and worst decision stemmed from what was in his interest not being in the best interest of the Mavericks, and every day since then has stemmed from what is in Niko's best interest as opposed to the Mavericks best interest, trading Luca Donchich was very clearly [SPEAKER_01]: to anyone, to someone who had been watching the game for six months, would know.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is not in the Dallas Maverick's best interest to trade a generational talent at 25 years old who had just let his team to the NBA finals, not in the Maverick's best interest.

[SPEAKER_01]: But Nico, Nico was fed up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nico thought, oh, I got to get this guy out of my facility.

[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't listen.

[SPEAKER_05]: He's still a wild thing to think after he went to the finals and didn't lose that series [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, he's we also other video.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's drinking a beer when he shouldn't I got to get a guy to take a beer out of his hands.

[SPEAKER_01]: All of that.

[SPEAKER_05]: You wouldn't love Larry Bird.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's my point.

[SPEAKER_01]: What bothered Nico?

[SPEAKER_01]: What made him call up the Lakers and say, have I got a deal for you, friend?

[SPEAKER_01]: was because in Niko's day-to-day frustration, best interest was to get rid of that guy.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that was in no way to the best interest of the Dallas Mavericks, and every day since has been what is in Niko's best interest.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because the minute Kyrie Irving got hurt, you and I had a discussion, I said to you, is this when you trade AD?

[SPEAKER_01]: and you said, first of all, you're crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And second of all, you said, we'll need to go Harrison's never going to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you were right.

[SPEAKER_05]: Because on the second part of least, of course.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nico Harrison was not going to go turn around and acknowledge failure about this thing that he had been so heavily criticized for.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that was another moment, a decision, a fork in the road, where Nico operated in Nico's interest as opposed to the Mavericks interest.

[SPEAKER_01]: The reason why I asked you that, the day after Kyrie got hurt, was, okay, [SPEAKER_01]: Kyrie's out going to be out for nine months to a year, whatever we call it, and he's injury prone and has a history, AD, we know is injury prone and had a history and sure enough got injured pretty quickly after that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then came back to soon, why did he come back to soon?

[SPEAKER_01]: He came back to soon to try to justify a trade that Nico had made, that AD, [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how do you think it felt to be Anthony Davis in the couple weeks after that trade?

[SPEAKER_01]: Not only feeling like the Lakers and possibly LeBron James, I don't know the answer to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: The trade you, but then to have everyone around the league, Pam, the trade is possibly the worst trade of all time and you're the guy they got back.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're eager to prove, Oh, Nico was right.

[SPEAKER_01]: You come back too early.

[SPEAKER_01]: You hurt yourself more.

[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to then turn around.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you're Nico Harrison, at that point last season and say, I am going to, I can't win anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: I need to cut my losses.

[SPEAKER_01]: But instead, he was operating in the best interest of, [SPEAKER_01]: I can still win, I can still show everybody, and every day since that, every move since that, every scramble since that has been how Nico Harrison can either save face or try to make things better about the decision he made, and that is not what has been in the best interest in the Mavericks.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I am not rooting for anyone to get fired because it sucks getting fired, these guys have families, it's not okay the way we talk about it so casually.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the truth is, [SPEAKER_01]: any personnel decision they make up until the trade deadline.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to be in the best interest of the franchise unless Nico Harrison is not the one making those decisions.

[SPEAKER_05]: I agree.

[SPEAKER_05]: There certainly are, and they should still trade Anthony Davis.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, we'll get to that in a second.

[SPEAKER_05]: There certainly are mitigating factors if you want to make the case for keeping legal.

[SPEAKER_05]: One of which is, you know, where would this team be with the healthy Kyrie Irving?

[SPEAKER_05]: Like, they can't, they have no shock creation whatsoever.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like, they can't do anything.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like, they can't make plays on the offensive end of the floor for a long time.

[SPEAKER_05]: They were dead last and offensive efficiency.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like, Kyrie, [SPEAKER_05]: himself makes them considerably better.

[SPEAKER_05]: Clay Thompson looks washed.

[SPEAKER_05]: Looks washed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Another decision made.

[SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[SPEAKER_05]: But, and look, and that was, you know, there's a trickle down effect from all that.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like Clay Thompson was acquired with Luca Donchich on the roster.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like Clay Thompson was brought in to play opposite Luca Donchich with no shock creators.

[SPEAKER_05]: Clay Thompson, Clay, like the one thing that Clay can no longer do without questions play off [SPEAKER_05]: And that's affecting, I think, that's infecting all other parts of his game.

[SPEAKER_05]: The numbers 31% from the floor, 26% from three got bench, which you know he's not going to be happy about.

[SPEAKER_05]: You know, because he went to Dallas in part because they guaranteed him, you know, you are your starter down here.

[SPEAKER_05]: So I'm not sure how that gets measured, but you know, you now got guys that, you know, [SPEAKER_05]: are, you know, we're brought in to play with Luca, Luca's no longer there, and now your offense is completely malfunctioned.

[SPEAKER_01]: But here's the thing about being someone in the front office.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have a crystal ball.

[SPEAKER_01]: You cannot tell the future.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some graphics are going to pan out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some to your best ability, your best scouting.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're just not going to pan out.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can't predict necessarily what a 17-18-19-year-old is going to turn into.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not every guy you trade for is going to play every game.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some of them are going to end up with devastating injuries, but you have to, as someone in the front office, bake the odds.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have to have judgment over how is this most likely to work out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Clay Thompson, yes, he was a choir when Luke was still there, but you're acquiring a guy who golden state.

[SPEAKER_01]: The franchise that has the most loyalty, the most built-up, oh, we'll give him another chance.

[SPEAKER_01]: You've earned it, you've earned our trust, you've earned it with Steve Kerr.

[SPEAKER_01]: They said this guy isn't a starter anymore.

[SPEAKER_05]: To not the most absurd money either, it was at three years like 50 something like that.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, not like full max.

[SPEAKER_05]: We're not going to go that route.

[SPEAKER_05]: This was a small number.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when they say, this guy is in a starter anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: This guy is not a franchise changer or a major star contributor anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: However, you want to freeze it to take a bet on that guy at the tune of what he's making 30 something a year in Dallas is not playing the odds.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not making a good decision.

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, trading a 25 year old generational superstar [SPEAKER_01]: Anthony Davis is now 32.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kyrie Irving is 33.

[SPEAKER_01]: They both have a significant injury histories.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you laid out all the injuries, it would get you to the second page of a piece of paper.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is not playing the odds well.

[SPEAKER_01]: You cannot guarantee everything of how your team is going to turn out, but if you make decisions that are on the back side on the wrong side of, eh, this could go either way, over and over and over again, you are going to end up with a team that has, quote, bad luck, but is it really bad luck.

[SPEAKER_01]: or is it just, we didn't position ourselves very well.

[SPEAKER_01]: We were basically betting that everything was gonna work out in a situation where we created, that had a bunch of pieces where things do not work out all over the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nico sat there that press conference he gave was an Cleveland on the road after Dallas when he finally talked after the lucatrade.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, we have a three or four year window.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a championship team right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: And over the next year, you're going to see we have a three or four year window.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're in their second year of that window.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this year is closed, like this, this is, so his, again, what's a Nico's interest?

[SPEAKER_01]: His best case scenario is that this is now two years out of three.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're only if it was only three-year window, more two years into it being a watch.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a watch.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I just don't think you have someone at the helm who is making decisions in the best interest of the Dallas Matrix.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's possible for him to.

[SPEAKER_01]: and to have a guy running your franchise who isn't making decisions and the best interests of the franchise, that's a problem.

[SPEAKER_01]: And to me, that's something if I was their owner, I would make a decision on that sooner rather than later.

[SPEAKER_05]: And where would this team be right now if they didn't have the glimmer of hope that is Cooper Flag?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and that, by the way, is such dumb luck.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't mean no.

[SPEAKER_01]: What was it?

[SPEAKER_01]: 1.4% chance they were going to get him.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have heard people say, and I can't tell if it's just completely tongue and cheek, or if there is some, just, you know, people get so mixed up on, you tank for this, you don't for that, what are the odds for that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have this draft pick or not?

[SPEAKER_01]: There was never part of the plan of, oh, don't worry.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're trading Luka, because we're getting the number one overall draft pick and a generational draft.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was never part of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is only the dumbest of tiniest of luck that that happened.

[SPEAKER_05]: All right.

[SPEAKER_05]: Let me just tell us a two things that I've heard from people in Dallas about this Nico situation.

[SPEAKER_05]: One, the among the reasons they believe that Patrick Dumont and ownership has to make a change is that they have lost the community, like they've they've lost the fanbase.

[SPEAKER_05]: And that matters generally speaking, but this is a team that's working on arena deal here.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like they're trying to get something done for a new building.

[SPEAKER_05]: And you gotta have good will with the community with the fan base.

[SPEAKER_05]: to get something like that done with local funding.

[SPEAKER_05]: When you got, you got to have that, and look, letting Nico go and replacing him's not going to replace all that, but at least it starts healing the wound a little bit.

[SPEAKER_05]: Because that, you know, you're hearing like fire Nico on the road now from some maps fans that are out there.

[SPEAKER_05]: One thing somebody suggested to me could be possible is, if Nico Harrison gets let go, we could see Jason Kidd take that front office role.

[SPEAKER_01]: that is fascinating to know we know by the way, when you say someone suggested to me you don't mean of maverick's fan, I don't even have a third row.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean someone within the franchise with someone with someone yes, someone very connected to the situation.

[SPEAKER_05]: And it was interesting to me because.

[SPEAKER_05]: Was you Jason Kitt?

[SPEAKER_05]: No, I was not going to ask you that.

[SPEAKER_05]: But it's not Jason Kitt, but you know this from Jason's earlier time as a coach.

[SPEAKER_05]: Jason has always wanted to be the guy that shops for the groceries to borrow the old Bill Parselle's line.

[SPEAKER_05]: He has matured to his credit in recent years.

[SPEAKER_05]: I thought being humbled in Brooklyn and Milwaukee and then taking a system coaching job with the Lakers, changed him some.

[SPEAKER_05]: But I think that still burns with inside of it.

[SPEAKER_05]: If you let go of Nico Harrison, you can't elevate someone internally.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like, it's for the poisonous right.

[SPEAKER_05]: Everyone is tainted in that front office by that trade.

[SPEAKER_05]: Whether or not they fought against, they're not doesn't really matter.

[SPEAKER_05]: You're all part of the same front office.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like Jason Kidd, [SPEAKER_05]: his hands are a clean in that like he's the coach you know he did what he did what he was told he take he coaches the team he love Luke as part of his his development in in Dallas so [SPEAKER_05]: I could see a scenario where Jason Kidd begins running basketball operations.

[SPEAKER_05]: Jason Kidd's got a good eye for talent to show it over the years, and one thing Jason Kidd could do is he could start to repair all those relationships, start to repair the relationship with the community.

[SPEAKER_05]: He's got history, not just as a coach, he's a player in Dallas, one championship.

[SPEAKER_05]: Hey, maybe Jason Kidd.

[SPEAKER_05]: can be the guy that brings Dirk Navitsky back into the fold.

[SPEAKER_05]: How about getting Dirk back?

[SPEAKER_05]: How about having him get it?

[SPEAKER_05]: No, he wouldn't go off Amazon Prime.

[SPEAKER_05]: He was a good job over at Amazon Prime.

[SPEAKER_05]: I was shouting at Dirk and Amazon doing a great job.

[SPEAKER_05]: I know, I know, I know.

[SPEAKER_05]: But maybe not having him lob grenades at your team from a television set saying it's tough to watch.

[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe bring him back into the mix.

[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe men's some fences with Mark Cuban, and get him kind of back on board with the team plan.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think the Jason, [SPEAKER_05]: makes a lot of sense.

[SPEAKER_05]: And Jason is very good at relationships.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, he is.

[SPEAKER_05]: Jason is outstanding at relationships.

[SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure on some level, Jason's got a relationship with Patrick Dumont.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I want to show you guys.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I don't know what it is.

[SPEAKER_05]: I'm not going to speak for Jason again, but I'm sure he's got his own relationship.

[SPEAKER_05]: I could see a scenario.

[SPEAKER_05]: And look, if you're Jason, [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, you like AD or AD's guy, but you're not tied to the guy, you're not tied to that deal.

[SPEAKER_05]: You could turn around and trade Anthony Davis.

[SPEAKER_05]: You could go out and get a young coach to build out that team.

[SPEAKER_05]: You could start fresh in ways that Nico Harrison cannot start fresh.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, you brought me the point of doing things in the best interest of the team.

[SPEAKER_05]: Doubling down on this core is probably not in the best interest of the team.

[SPEAKER_05]: Rebuilding around Cooper Flag is in the best interest of the team.

[SPEAKER_05]: Right now it looks like.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love this idea.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the whole community aspect you just built out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to repeat it, but it is exactly right.

[SPEAKER_01]: You are exactly right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it is what the franchise needs.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Jason's about just has a good eye for talent.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's a good recruiter.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he was instrumental in Kyrie coming to Dallas.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he understands how to talk to guys.

[SPEAKER_01]: You always hear his guys in the locker room over there saying, well, you know, he was a Hall of Fame point guard.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to listen to him.

[SPEAKER_01]: That sort of thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't change just because he's not on the bench anymore, so I think that asset will help him in the front office.

[SPEAKER_01]: And frankly, and by the way, I am a J.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kid devotee, the way I'm a tylude devotee, I really am.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think you're a devotee, I have a lot of coaches here.

[SPEAKER_01]: You think I'm a devotee of 16, so I am not.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, these are the slippers.

[SPEAKER_05]: I've got three downing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: But no, I absolutely believe in him, and I think that he definitely has what it takes to at least try.

[SPEAKER_01]: And even if he's not the greatest front office man in the history of the world, he is not read our back.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter what matters is.

[SPEAKER_01]: they need to turn a corner, and he can offer them something that even the ghost of red arrowback could not, which is all that community stuff that you just talked about in the good well, and just getting the franchise to feel like, okay, we are on a direction where this go somewhere good.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do still think they need to trade Anthony Davis.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you lucked out to the luckiest of luck, getting Cooper Flag.

[SPEAKER_01]: You just need to build around his timeline.

[SPEAKER_01]: Jason kid, the coach, doesn't want all those losses.

[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, the mafrics have their pick this year.

[SPEAKER_01]: This year, in what is considered the deepest draft that we've seen in a couple decades, they have their own pick.

[SPEAKER_01]: They do not have their own pick next year.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this is the time, man.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hold the shoot.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hold the shoot.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anthony Davis, he still has the, one of the reasons why I asked you about him last year is because at that point he had two years left on his deal.

[SPEAKER_01]: He now has a year and a half left on his deal.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you wait until this off season.

[SPEAKER_01]: where he's an expiring contract, you're just not getting much for him.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the Mavericks gave away so many assets so much draft capital.

[SPEAKER_05]: We talked about Detroit, top of the podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Sammy, didn't Tonyo, I don't think they're bringing them in in San Antonio, but anyway, hell of a defensive line.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's try to score on the first of Wendy and I know, I don't think he's on their timeline Chris, but look, [SPEAKER_01]: I think there are teams that he could help that would still give them back some of those assets that Nico traded away to build the team around Luca because you need those because frankly they don't have much in the cupboard to build around Cooper Flag and they need to use whatever they can to get some of that back and that is Anthony Davis and again Nico's not going to do that he's just not going to trade AD.

[SPEAKER_01]: He can't.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to have someone running the franchise who is working in the best interest of the franchise.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's unbelievable to say that sentence because it should be obvious, but it is not what is going on in Dallas right now.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I agree.

[SPEAKER_05]: All right, before we go, you brought to my attention, a story from Jason Quick at the athletic that a deep dive on Spencer Haywood, who's got a bit of an axe to grind when it comes to the NBA and something they didn't do.

[SPEAKER_05]: So let out for me, like what does Spencer Haywood want and why are you so in his corner in this one?

[SPEAKER_05]: You are a Spencer Haywood Devotee on this one.

[SPEAKER_05]: Let's just call this one, the...

Chris, Chris, I like Devotee's podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: Chris, I like people.

[SPEAKER_00]: It makes me a good foil to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very disposed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Look, Spencer Haywood, legend in every way, you know, one of the things in addition to one of the exceptional basketball careers is that [SPEAKER_01]: He sued to allow underage underclassmen to enter the MBA draft that you would not have all of these guys who entered the league early in their in some cases right at high school and in some cases in their second year being able to enter the draft and that is as he pointed out in this article with Jason.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, every single big name that you know in the NBA today has benefited from his legacy, from his actions, from him taking the risk, and that was a brave thing to do in a time where if you were branded a trouble maker, that could have been it for you, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: He could have not had a career in the NBA.

[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, Jason's not the first one to write about this, Spencer has been talking about this for a while, but I was sort of, you know, when I read the article, which was very well done, it just brought it back to the fore.

[SPEAKER_01]: He would like his legacy to be cemented with naming this rule the Spencer Haywood rule.

[SPEAKER_01]: The same way, we informally or formally have the Oscar Robertson rule.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have so many.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wrote down a bunch of them, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So we have...

[SPEAKER_01]: The Oscar Robinson rule, we have the Trent Tucker rule, we have Larry Birdwrights, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: We have names for a bunch of these things.

[SPEAKER_05]: Even with the negative ones, tech stepping in the stadium rule.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, the stepping in rule.

[SPEAKER_05]: Can't a trade draft picks consecutive years.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, he wants this to be the Spencer Haywood rule.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he wants people to know what he did for a few reasons.

[SPEAKER_01]: One, because it was a really big deal, and he deserves to get that credit.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was a hard thing to do, and he did it.

[SPEAKER_01]: At a time, by the way, [SPEAKER_01]: where a black college player was not getting the benefit of the doubt in the U.S.

court system.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then also to build on that idea, he talked a lot in this article and he has talked in other public forums.

[SPEAKER_01]: He is the son of a sharecropper.

[SPEAKER_01]: He grew up in the [SPEAKER_01]: Deep, deep south, in a place and a time where there was just no way of getting out.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that he came from there to accomplish this, not just on the court as a player and what he could do with his body, but what he did with his mind and all of the things that people...

[SPEAKER_01]: would not give him credit for in the system he was born into.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is part of the reason why it is important to him.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that really just speaks to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I get that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I get why he wants to not be sort of wiped off the face of MBA history.

[SPEAKER_01]: When sadly there's going to be a point you open the show talking about Lenny, there's going to be a point where we say, oh Spencer, hey, would pass away.

[SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: That to be the end of it, he doesn't want that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I understand that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the NBA apparently has said to him, look, these aren't formal designations.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't name rules after people.

[SPEAKER_01]: The Oscar Robertson rule, the Larry Bird writes, I guess they're not in the formal rule book.

[SPEAKER_01]: I trust the NBA.

[SPEAKER_01]: I believe them when they say that.

[SPEAKER_05]: But like NBA officials call it that, though.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like that, for you, that here bird writes all the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the time, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It is what it is.

[SPEAKER_05]: The stepping in what I think that is.

[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, is the stepping in a rule not?

[SPEAKER_01]: The stepping rule is that you can't throw away all your draft picks in consecutive years, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Named after Cleveland's done that.

[SPEAKER_05]: This feels like one of those things, like just do it NBA, like what is the downside?

[SPEAKER_05]: Like what, this is one of those like slam dunks for it to borrow, he met a four from the sports.

[SPEAKER_01]: 100%.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And look, maybe maybe again, I trust people at the NBA talking about this because yes, it is such a slam dunk.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why wouldn't they do it?

[SPEAKER_01]: So if they tell me it's actually not in the rule of the burn right at school, burn right at school, burn right?

[SPEAKER_05]: codified.

[SPEAKER_05]: It could be wrong with this.

[SPEAKER_05]: It could be wrong with this.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think so.

[SPEAKER_05]: I feel like there's a reference.

[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: But here's the thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is why I wanted to bring it up on the pod.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I do think the MBA should do this, whether it is part of what they traditionally do or not.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is someone who made a great contribution coming from a place that is all that they celebrate.

[SPEAKER_01]: The opportunity that the MBA gives people.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, it is up to us.

[SPEAKER_01]: If we are the ones who made Larry Burbrates a thing, us in the media, if the fans are the ones who talk about the Oscar Robinson rule, like we collectively, the media, the fans, executives, players, we need to start calling it.

[SPEAKER_01]: The Spencer Haywood rule.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then if it's official or not, I hope it becomes it because he says this is the last thing he wants to see before he dies.

[SPEAKER_01]: But regardless, we all can do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's almost like I would like to.

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I mean, I would too.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's almost like you bird rights comes up because it's part of any conversation about, sorry, oh, so this team can sign it back yet, I got his bird rights.

[SPEAKER_05]: I guess you'd have to start saying, this guy is like, I mean, I'm trying to figure out how you would say it as a media member.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like, this guy is entry.

[SPEAKER_05]: He's going to exercise the Hayward rule and enter the draft.

[SPEAKER_05]: Is that kind of it?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's not as fluid in the language.

[SPEAKER_01]: You could also look every so many years, the age limit thing comes up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you can talk about it that way, even if it's just every few years.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I personally, [SPEAKER_01]: Think that the NBA should be increasing the age limit by a year now that we have NIL as opposed to oh, should we put it back at a high school level I think it should be yes, so I mean in all of those conversations you could talk about Spencer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, wood and and I do think that frankly the players I mean that was his point in this article the players who benefited from it the LeBron the KDA, etc.

[SPEAKER_01]: etc.

[SPEAKER_01]: etc.

[SPEAKER_01]: etc.

[SPEAKER_01]: They don't talk about it and maybe they should talk about him a little bit more.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can at least [SPEAKER_05]: I feel like, as we go out of this podcast, Shelby, our producer, could you play, you got a friend in me?

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, there we go.

[SPEAKER_05]: Because Rachel's just friendly with everybody.

[SPEAKER_05]: This is this episode.

[SPEAKER_05]: Because this is the, this is, this is, this is the friends of Rachel Nicholson.

[SPEAKER_05]: So let's, let's fade out with you got a friend in me, because Rachel, that is the theme of this podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: The next time on the next episode, we'll have the crew legend song.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll figure out what that is.

[SPEAKER_05]: Great.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hit Shelby, hit it.

[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.