Putin killed the most bright and famous and brave politician and person in our country, Aleksey Navalny, after three years of slowly torturing him.

Since then, anyone can be killed any moment inside the country.

Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.

I'm Christian Girimurthy, and this is the podcast where we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have helped shape them.

My guest this week is Masha Al Yukina, artist, activist and founding member of the Russian feminist punk collective Pussy Riot.

She became internationally known after the group's protest performance in Moscow's Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in 2012, which led to her arrest and two years in prison.

Now living in exile, Masha continues to challenge Putin's regime and fight for freedom of expression through her art, writing and activism.

And her new book, Political Girl, is an account, a diary of protest, of prison and of her thoughts about Russia Today.

Masha, thank you very much indeed for joining.

Us.

Thank you.

You're living in exile now.

When you look at Russia Today, do you see it differently to how you saw it when you were there?

I don't like the word exile actually, because that was hard, but my decision to like dress myself as a Courier, to make 3 attempts to cross the border without documents, that's all I did.

So basically there was no kind of, you know, someone resisted like running to me and go away, go away.

You weren't forced down.

You.

You chose.

Yeah, I choose that not because mostly I afraid of prison, because I spend a lot of time there.

I wanted to help Ukraine and I wanted to do what I'm doing now to raise money for Ukrainian unions and hospitals, to stand with this country and to openly speak.

So if you went to Russia, what would happen to you now?

13 years and 15 days in penal calling you minimum because sometimes they open criminal cases on people who are already in prison.

So to come back to my question, when you look at Russia Today, is it worse than it was when you were there?

So now since 2022, since the full scale invasion, it's definitely became worse.

They added several new articles into the Criminal Code which prohibits to speak about this war and even call this war the war.

And the price for like not doing that is from 8:00 to 20 years.

Also, last year shows quite clearly that anyone can be killed because Putin killed the most right and famous and brave politician and person in our country, Aleksina Vali, after three years of slowly torturing him.

And yes, that means that since since then anyone can be killed any moment inside the country, in prison or outside the prison do.

Do you think Russia is understood by the West?

No, I don't think so.

What?

What are our biggest misunderstandings?

It depends on whom we're talking about.

People in general have quite short memory and this is understandable because everyone lives their own life and to care and specialized super care about country or a conflict between other countries or even the war is very limited.

So you can't worry, but for a limited amount of time, Putin's invasion to Ukraine and taking the territory to full scale war which is going on now, There were no proper sanctions, no embargo to Russian oil and gas.

There was a green light to continuation of the war.

So there was no clear no to that invasion.

I wanted to show through the small small steps how it's possible to take freedoms 1 by 1.

Why is he apparently so popular?

Where?

Well, I mean, unless you think all the electoral outcomes are total nonsense and clearly there's been allegations of vote tampering through the years.

There is a body of opinion in Russia that seems to support Putin.

Why?

In the country with war censorship, it's impossible to count statistics.

So we have situation when people being imprisoned for giving interviews on the streets to Western journalists.

And that was even not like statements about how they hate Putin or how they stand against this war.

There were much lighter, even not a criticism but not appreciation of the system.

And people went to prison because Centre E political police recognised their faces, came to their apartments over the criminal cases and grabbed them from there.

It's not just non existence of freedom of speech, it's war censorship.

So at this point, we cannot count real statistics.

We cannot.

We cannot find out how many people support Putin and how many people are in captivity.

Silently suffer inside.

Well, how?

How would you describe it then?

I mean, how, what?

What is your sense of how much actual support Putin has and how much fear keeps him in power?

I think fear 80% and this is not just the fear which being placed by this regime.

This is a generation of fear because our country like Russia is a new country.

Soviet Union existed for almost 100 years, oppressing any difference.

So generation by generation people were like giving to their children the fear people being executed during the great terror and that were like best people.

A lot of people have been sent out of the country after the red Revolution is also great intelligent people.

So those who survived gave a knowledge of keeping silence to their children to self censor and it you cannot just Soviet Union collapsed, but people stayed, people stayed and their state of mind remained.

So to overcome this way of thinking to understand how important freedom is, several generations should work on the mistakes which been done during the century to go through the process, which for example, Germany went up to the Second World War, called the diversification that haven't been done.

And Putin is proud that FSB, for example, keeping the legacy of KGB.

So they are celebrating this legacy.

And I think it's quite representative.

We talk if we talk about like current situation, there is this documentary which I want to watch and I Mr.

Nobody against Putin.

So basically it's a teacher from one of the Russian schools who managed to hiddenly film new lessons, which are obligatory now in Russian schools of ultra patriotism.

Because, you know, after the full scale war, they rewrote the history, they wrote new history books calling Ukrainians Nazis.

And this teacher managed to film this patriotic lessons and run away from the country with the footage.

So now this regime is putting a lot of money and resources, human resources, to raise real so-called patriots, those who are young, who haven't seen anything except this regime, who haven't been abroad and will honestly believe in this regime because they want like, real believers.

Let's go back to the beginning of pussy riots.

OK.

What did you believe you were?

What did you believe was possible to achieve through resistance, through fighting?

Did you think you could bring the system down, or were you just fighting because it was the right thing to do?

When Putin announced that he's going to run for so-called presidency for like third time, there were large protests across Russia.

So there was big protest movements.

A lot of people who were not agree to have him again.

And we've been a part of this protest.

I think I personally didn't have any goal accepts shouting the truth, which is necessary I think in this moment.

Just explain why.

Why it's necessary to shout the truth?

Because this is how change can happen.

How change can happen if you remain silent?

But these were not normal reactions for a young woman in Russia.

So.

So where did that come from?

Where did your sense of freedom come from?

What is not normal?

That reaction that I want to shout the truth, that I want to take on the system, that I want to risk being arrested or sent to jail, most people don't react like that.

In that situation, you did.

So what?

Why do you?

It's very sad that most people do not react well.

I do not separate men from women at this point.

We, we've been first artists, activists who've been imprisoned and got criminal case for the protest.

Yeah, we are women, that's true.

But in general they didn't imprison artist men before.

So they were, I think, like double offended.

Were you shocked that you were sent to prison?

I was definitely surprised when the criminal case was opened.

Yes, I was the first person to whom police came.

I was going back home from the kindergarten with my son.

That was late evening.

We went to elevator, went up to my floor, and there was a guy in the plainclothes saying that he's a policeman, he is going to arrest me.

So that was surprising.

That was, yeah, quite unbelievably surprising.

But I think on the second or third day on 3rd prison, the political police came to to the prison, like bring me to the office.

And he clearly said that it will be a prison term, it will be two years minimum if I will not sign the paper that I'm guilty.

And I'm super sorry for everything what was done and I didn't sign it.

Why?

Why didn't you sign it?

Why should I?

Because you.

Were going to go to prison.

I'm not guilty and I'm not sorry.

Why should I say?

I mean, come on.

I suppose I'm just putting to you what a lot of people, what might have thought, you know, I don't want to go to prison.

So yeah, fine.

I'll sign whatever you want me to sign.

You can that.

Chose the other the other route.

I understand.

Yeah, but you can end up in much more dangerous prison if you will sign a lie and especially if you will deal with like dictator state.

This is you can end up in much worse thing.

And I don't know, I mean I just did what I felt I need to do.

How was it in prison being deprived from your child?

We have different prison system from yours.

Legacy of Soviet Union network of Pinot colonists.

Labour camps which before been named as a gulag.

Now it's just, you know, federal prison system.

But the concept is the same.

It's look like strange village.

2 parts living zone, working zone, living zone, barracks, 100 women in one room, 3 toilets, one fridge.

No hot water, no normal food.

Working zone is a fabric where prisoners sold the police uniform and uniform for rational army for the amount of money which is equivalent to £2 per month.

As you see, this is legal slavery without the possibility to write any claim to human rights defenders, because majority of them are working together with administration or you will be punished if you will say that you know something is bad in this colony.

I didn't know all of that, so I went to Human Rights Commission and said something about warm clothes for women, which didn't exist.

They locked me to surgery confinement.

Plus they wrote this description in my case, which I saw afterwards that I can disorganize the whole colony.

So that means that everyone who were trying to chat with me to to talk with me in the smoking area been called immediately to the office and said that if you will like appear near you near your one time more, it will be a criminal case will be more 3, three more years in prison for disorganisation of the colony.

You have two types of visits, a long visit once in three months and short visit.

Short visit is a conversation through the glass can be with anyone.

Long visit can be only with relatives.

And this is 3 days you leave together in one room and you're able to cook together and all that.

So I had two visits of my son during this period of time.

So it wasn't like complete separation, but.

I mean, that's amazing to hear you say that.

I mean it.

I think for most people that is effectively complete separation.

It's so rare.

And your son was how old?

Well, he was five and then seven.

I mean, inside the prison, definitely.

It's heartbreaking to see your child and then understand that it's like for three days.

But the point is that the system is permanently pressuring you.

And if you will just, you know, be in suffering emotions, you will be not able to protect yourself.

And if you, if you choose, and I chose to stand for prisoners rights and stand for myself first, do not let them accumulate me all the time.

You should lock these emotions, let's say.

So you should kind of understand that this amount of time you spend here, nowhere else, you're not going home this amount of time.

So do whatever you can in these conditions.

It's like this.

I mean, it's fascinating reading about how you felt about being released and being released in Amnesty.

But what what is remarkable, I suppose for many people looking at I think, is that you come out and and you carry on and you keep going and you keep going to protest and you keep doing actions.

Just explain what your mindset is there.

What are you?

What are you doing, or how are you not afraid you're going to end up back in that penal colony?

Well, I wasn't thinking about going back to penal colony and basically, so we've been released two months before the end of the term because of the act of amnesty, which puts enrolled before Olympic Games.

So it would be a scene to not go to the Olympic Games and not make an action.

I would not understand myself if I would not do it can.

We talk a little bit about the causes that you are fighting for then.

I mean, obviously there is democracy, freedom, not being a dictatorship.

But you've mentioned Ukraine as one of your driving motives and that is both the invasion of Crimea and then the full scale invasion in 2022.

Why is that such an important driving force for your protests and your opposition to Putin?

It's on European interest to save Ukraine, to have it not been eaten by Putin's Bullock and turned into Bullock because there is lack of information what is going on in the occupied territories.

But it's basically turned into torture chambers.

If we do not like speak about Bahmoud, which is just erased from the plaintiff, those cities which been occupied are torture chambers.

That should not happen with this country because I mean if we speak emotionally, they are fighting for the 4th year against the biggest army in European continent, bravely just standing for their lands.

And for my opinion, it should be supported because they they they want to be a part of Europe and share European values.

Do you think military victory is the answer for Ukraine?

I think like my opinion, European army and British Army should be sent to to save Ukraine, yes, to protect Ukraine to.

Fight.

To fight and this is definitely will be not super popular decision.

I mean, I understand that for any Western politician it would be quite hard to explain to people why they need to send their people.

Well, what would you say if you were sitting down with the British Prime Minister?

Because today they found Naz so-called Nazis in Ukraine.

If you will give up Ukraine, if you will give Ukraine, they will find so-called Nazis in your country.

Putin needs war.

Putin needs war as a situation.

It's since 2014 when since here next Crimea he puts as an ideological main point so-called cult of victory.

It was spread like through all propaganda resources that there are new Nazis that were fighting with the new Nazis.

Like our grandparents.

We are the great and all of this like greatness thing.

Putin needs the war.

So you think the Western peace movement is wrong?

You know, the people who are essentially pacifist and who want to end the war.

You think this is a war that needs to be won?

I think it's quite like Hippocratic saying what means end the war, give territories, you will give this territories, sign negotiations throughout this war.

And you honestly believe that you can negotiate with Putin?

I mean it's naive.

Just look to the previous years.

In 2015 they signed negotiations and what happened after?

What happened like in seven years new invasion, you will sign negotiations now you will save time, you will be probably re elected and then what?

There will be more blood.

So do do you think the left in Europe that regards itself as a peace movement is just naive?

Well, this is very polite, correct way.

Polite way to say.

I'm a polite person.

You can say it however you.

Like, well, what you would say if that would be a situation when you need to give part of your country to, if it will be like the situation when there is a danger sirens, many people killed and you have to give the part of your country you will give.

This is not about peace, it's about fear.

It's about comfort and about indifference about less like lack of knowledge about what is going on inside the country.

To give the territory doesn't mean just replace one flag to another.

It means that people who do not agree will be killed.

You know how many people been living in Donetsk before the occupation were more than 1,000,000 people.

Now it's around 200,050 on the ruins without like hot water, all the fabrics, everything stopped.

So this is like 8 years of occupation.

What about like more than half who had to leave, who don't have home anymore, who became refugees because of that?

Like, is it all a peace?

This is just, it's not a peace.

You have a lot, I mean people from the Western countries.

You all have a possibility to go to Ukraine yourself and to see with your eyes what is going on there.

It's not a big Rd.

Yes, aeroplanes do not fly there, it's true.

But trains are going and they are amazing.

Just come and watch and after that probably this propaganda will not work anymore.

Where?

Where is your level of hope for Russia?

Level.

How hopeful are you?

Well, I think we should do what we can every day.

And I mean, I'm not the government, I don't have an army, I don't have amount of weapons which I can like give to resistance or to Ukraine.

I mean, when you look at Trump and the way he treats Putin, even when you look back at the previous administration that kept Ukraine restricted in terms of what it could do, doesn't it look like Putin will stay in power for as long as he's alive?

I think Western fear and indifference is not the reason to give up and to lose the whole.

It's not my fear and indifference and I can again what I can just give my experience.

This is the only thing I have, what I saw, what I lived and what I'm living through.

And I don't know which impact it can produce, but it's something we stay and we'll stay.

So it does not matter what do I feel this or that moment because it's always different and quite strong, Felix, But it matters to continue doing.

I think it's how I think do.

You believe you'll go back to Russia?

I hope in one moment I will see my country again.

Yes, but I'm not waiting for that.

As you know, some, somebody will come and like, give me a presence.

This is your way back home.

We we've been born where we've been born.

We on the time which kind of been chosen for us.

So we should do what we can.

And, and, and just finally, I mean, how, how do you feel about Russia now as a, as a Russian?

I mean, like, you know, the language of patriotism.

I love my country, you know, is used as a as a weapon against people like you.

They call us enemies of the people, enemies of the state.

They name us extremists and terrorists.

There is official list of extremists and terrorists and all the people who who've been charged for so-called fakes about Russian army are extremists.

And many of the people from I know and with whom we work hard, terrorists.

They call us like that.

True.

I'm Marsha.

I'm Ian Are.

You a patriot?

Would you describe yourself as a patriot?

It's not only me, it's even Russian cops said that I'm a patriot.

So they opened second criminal case against me in January 2021.

For Instagram posts for the call to the protest rally.

When Navalny came back, that was just I think a week before the full scale war started.

There were a lot of talks.

That is that it will happen.

So I received 2 terms of 15 days for so-called promoting Nazism inside the country and I was offended.

Actually first time especially I was like why?

I'm not a Nazi but why?

Anyway we were in this building of the court.

We were exiting this building with two policemen and one of them said that you, Masha is a patriot but you will leave us for sure.

And the one, this thing which which I managed to answer, managed to answer, I said I don't want to.

There were a lot of them who respected us and that's why they were like treated us differently in different like in detention centres and prisons.

Yes, they were working there, but they they were understanding that we are locked inside, not because we committed a crime, but because we are political prisoners.

It's just not marked.

So that shows that they understand.

I know another country.

I mean, I, I know it and it's have you seen like recent videos of young St.

musicians which been in Russia?

Yes, there was this.

There is this girl called Diana Naoka St.

musician who was singing the songs of artists who are not in the country because of the war and some protest.

Songs from perestroika time are 19 years old and kids the same age singing the songs together.

So it's kind of this is the country I know.

That gives you.

Hope this is just you asked about patriotism and this is the country.

I mean, these are the people.

Marsha, thank you very much indeed.

You too.

Thank you for coming.

In Thank you.

You can watch all of these interviews on the Channel 4 News YouTube channel.

Until next time, bye bye.