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Hi, I'm Nora Jones.

Today I'm playing along with Sarah mcgloughlin.

I'm just playing lo Wey.

I'm just playing lone Wey.

Hi, I'm Nora Jones.

Welcome to the show with me, as always is Sarah Oda.

Here we are Yay.

Today we have a very special guest because I fangirled out like eighteen year olds Nora, it was my little baby self.

On this episode, we have have.

The legendary Sara Sarah McLaughlin, Grammy winning singer songwriter who has an unmistakable voice that certainly left an impression on our generation, but also has connected listeners across all generations.

She also founded Lilith Fair in nineteen ninety seven, bringing women artists together on one stage, and she continues to inspire and uplift with her artistry and activism.

There's a great doc out now on Lilith Fair that you should check out.

It's pretty awesome.

Her new album Better Broken just came out in September.

That means you talk, Oh yes, we do.

Some songs from that album.

They're really beautiful, and it was fun to catch her before she goes on tour because she hasn't really performed them live that much, so it was really special to sort of get to be there and play them with her.

Very cool.

Yeah, she said she was very connected to those songs right now.

So yeah, in this episode, you're going to hear about the challenge of losing a voice on tour.

You're going to hear about her music school programs, and also about the Lilith Fair documentary which just came out as well, and as always, there's beautiful music on the way, some new songs, and then for me personally, a nineties dream come true for me as well.

Yes, yes, I got to sing one of my faves with one of my faves.

It was awesome.

She's a delight and we loved hanging with her and having her on the show.

I loved getting to connect with her in this way because we've met once, but we've never really got to hang out much.

So here she is Sarah McLaughlin.

There is some spicy language in this episode, so listener discretion is advised.

It's not that bad, but just so you know it's there.

True to comes.

It's for.

The witch.

Game, and.

I'm running ragged through the maze.

I know the heart.

It's a tricky bee snacks Coo famrad spirit.

Of the name.

Lose you, robs your blind and leaves you bleating on the street.

Where are you out?

As arms surround you.

And a wee spering you here, saying everything's gonna be all right, eatling if it's not.

Because you're roly human, you can only take so much before it break.

When you feel like you're drowning alone, and the way escape on coming, and all you.

And the circle goes round and round and round till.

You can't breathe.

That night you cannot see.

Under these rooms ease prison holds it A stumbled through some many times before.

To find the devil lurking just behind the door.

I don't pretend to understand the Rosie walk till you see your stay.

In the day, want to tried or left some of the burdens that.

You bear, and all you own his arms and we spiney read.

Saying everything's gonna.

Be already, even if it's not.

Because you're all only human, you can only take so much before we break.

And you feel like.

You're trowling alone, and the wate keep on coming out the time, and the circle goes round and round and round until you can't breathe.

But that's not you cannot see.

That's right, you cannot see.

So beautiful.

Thank you, that's so pretty.

Thank you for let me sing with you.

I love I love that we got to do that together.

I literally have done this twice live two months ago.

Okay, Yeah, I love this song.

And when I was listening to the new album, I was like, the harmonies are beautiful.

Thank you.

Have you always done your own harmonies on record pretty much?

Yeah?

I mean I harmonized to everything.

Yeah, listening to anything on the radio in the car, I just instantly go to the third or the fifth or the fourth, or you know, try and find another place because I just I want to sing with everything.

Yeah, I get it.

But you have really interesting harmony in the way you play.

You use a lot of seconds.

Yeah, sort of.

I like a little bit of dissonance.

I like that.

And it's not so pretty, I mean, because it's it's as you said, it was really pretty and it is and I'm really drawn to that, but I like there needs to be some rubs.

Where does that come from?

What?

What?

Like?

How did you learn music?

I don't even know your history.

Well, I started out with you giallely when I was four years old.

Yeah, because I basically I wanted to be Joan Biass.

My mom, Yeah, my mom listened.

She had a couple records, Joe by Ass, Kat, Steven Simon, and Garfunkle.

So American folk was what I was steeped on, you know, and that's what I grew up with.

And so I got a ukulele when I was four.

And then we moved to the big city, and I started taking classical guitar lessons because that was kind of the only thing that was available to be taught.

Then moved from that.

I kept taking guitar.

Then I started taking piano, and it took opera for a couple of years, which so was not my cupite.

But you know, it's like, oh, you sing, you want to sing, let's give you some singing lessons, And honestly, it did nothing but screw me up.

I almost took classical, like opera.

I was kind of dabbling in that when I was in high school, and I was afraid that it would train me the wrong way.

I feel like it kind of did.

I actually, really I had to unlearn some things because one of them they taught you to stand really rigidly, and they mentioned the diaphragm.

But I was, you know, I'm really good at faking stuff.

I can mimic pretty much anything, so I would just pretend to be an opera singer and they didn't really teach me anything.

They just it was about, you know, staying in tune and had it hitting all those notes.

But I was stiff because of it.

I actually had to remind myself to loosen up.

That was one of the very first things when I started working with a vocal court coach.

After I blew my voice out on my first tour.

She's like, okay, I just sang for her.

She goes, go run around the block as fast as you can and come back.

Are you serious?

So I sprinted around the block, came back panting, and she says, light out on the floor.

So I lay it on the floor.

She goes now sing that same part.

I'm like, everything was working, My diaphragm was open, my lungs were opening up, and I just loosened.

I was loose, like, oh, that's how I'm supposed to do.

That's so cool.

One of my favorite albums is Surfacing, and I have a story to tell you later about that.

But you really seem to be drawn to these weird sounds as well on the recordings, Like I don't even know if they're sense or they don't sound like typical sense, but whatever they are, they're very like organic but electronic.

Yeah, where does that come from?

Again?

Trying to create a soundscape that pulls you away from that sort of traditional prettiness, because you know that's where I go.

That's my that's my comfort, beautiful melodies, harmonies, but it's it's often very pretty.

I can relate, yeah, because it's the piano singer girl exactly.

And I love that.

Yeah.

But I you know, when you think about why I love production, why I love going in the studio, there's an elevation that happens when you bring other musicians together and they create and bring colors to it that you wouldn't be able to think of on your own.

That's why you collaborate.

Totally, and I why not use it all?

So why not utilize that?

And you know it it's sort of a sometimes a singular argument because I have so many people say I just want to hear you play and sing on the piano and to go.

Do you understand how boring that gets for me as a listener, Like I need I need some dissonance, I need some I need something to rub up against that came out the wrong.

Yeah, there needs to be a conflict in there.

It's also just it's more fun playing with others totally.

Yeah, because you never know what they're gonna come up with that makes you come up with something different.

Yeah, it's it's a conversation that continues to happen every time you work together, every time you're experimenting and trying something different.

It's like that's where the magic happens.

Totally.

Do you have a tour coming up?

I sure do.

Yeah.

I actually had to cancel my tour last year.

I got a wicked virus right at the onset of my I was doing this thirtieth anniversary filming tour Secstasy Tour.

I did it in America.

I blew out my voice.

Wow, I just you know, I came on hot, like rehearsing seven hours a day, going right into the shows and kind of did some damage.

So on steroids the entire tour.

Oh god, and you often put yourself in a bit of a false sense of security with those.

And I did more damage on tour, and then I took the summer off thinking that that would be enough to recuperate.

And then I went back out in the fall and got a wicked virus like day two and lost my voice completely and it was gone for three months.

That's insane.

I went into E and T got scope and they're worried I wouldn't come back.

Oh yeah, I spent the whole I spent most of the winter on vocal rest, like I wasn't on the talk.

Which is how did that?

Really challenging?

And I was lucky I'd finished almost all the vocals for the record, but I went through this last winter thinking oh, I might not be able to sing this album, which was you know, I'm very lucky.

I have a lot of things that bring me joy in my life, but I am to a large degree defined in my own sense of self around my voice and being able to sing and using that as a you know, a form of expression.

Super powered.

Well yeah, I mean it was.

I was pretty bommed thinking that it might be gone.

But I just you know, you have to think positively.

So I did everything the doctor told.

Me to do.

I sound terribly hoarse right now because I've been talking for the last seven days straight, which isn't the greatest thing for a singer, but it is back.

I got it back.

I got a clean bill of health, and I did all the vocal rehab and everything, and I'm going back out to do the same tour that I didn't do last year, starting on the exact same date, almost October fifteenth, but with a new album.

Well yeah, and so for me, it's like, oh, this is a great opportunity, a soft launch.

I'm going to do the fumbling tour, but I'm going to add in not all of but a few of the new songs.

I'm fully aware that people, you know, aren't familiar with this material and they want the old stuff, and they're paying good money to come see me, so I'm going to give them what I want.

But yeah, I'm also going to do a little bit of what I want as well.

You could just do a balance, you do, try to do balance.

I'll probably do four new songs.

Okay, it's a two and a half hour show, so oh yeah, they're just going to have to put up with it.

They're going to be happy.

They're beautiful songs.

Oh yeah, that's such a balance, trying to trying to do.

What you think people want.

But also yeah, I mean I'm not getting stale, you know, lucky that I for the most part, I still really love all these songs.

Like I'm not sick of them yet.

That's great.

Yeah, yeah, I mean you should be proud of them, you know.

I am, you know, But I don't know about you, But, like, you know, the older stuff, for me, I have less of an attachment to and less sort of an association.

Yes, and if it feels disingenuous to sing it, if I don't feel attached to it.

Do you want to try the other song from the new record?

Yeah?

What was the other song?

We go?

I think we talked about doing better broken?

This is also the title try.

Okay, has it been a while since you released an album?

Eleven years?

That feels like a well timed eleven years since since new material?

Yeah.

So I did a Christmas record maybe six or seven years ago, because I had a two album contract on my last It's usually.

White people do Christmas.

It's like hmm, shall I press easy button?

Yeah?

Yes, all the song's already written.

It is great, but yeah, eleven years since new material.

And I mean, I've been busy.

I raised two totally daughters.

I've just dropped off my little one at university weeks ago.

Yeah, so I'm an empty nester.

How does that feel?

Well, I haven't been home, so I think I'm okay.

You're busy, honestly busy enough.

I mourned it for probably the last six months before she left.

We're super tight, and honestly, every time anybody brought it up to me, I started leaking like okay, like, oh my god, I'm going to be such a mess.

But I think when you know something is coming, you can kind of.

I was kind of grieving it along the way.

And then when I.

Got there and I moved her in and she was so ready and so excited, and I walked downstairs said I've got to go.

I got to go get on the plane and go home, and she's like, I got this, Mom, I'm good.

And I said, well, then I'm good too, and gave her a big HUGHESSID, I'll see you in a couple of weeks because I'm going to La in a couple of days.

So it's been like, you know, month and then it's not like a year.

It's not And you know, I think in the winter when I'm home by myself and it's a big old house and you know, there's not the noise of her music or just she's a big presence.

Like, yeah, I'll definitely I'll miss her, and I already miss her.

But here's the other cool thing, Like she facetimes me almost every day.

Oh that's great, so she misses me.

But it's not like I want to come home, yeah miss you.

It was just like, hi, Mom, how are you?

Yeah, okay, but I gotta go.

Yeah, just check it in And I'm sure that will lessen over time.

But it's such an interesting dynamic.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I'm just I'm so grateful that I kind of semi retired like COVID happened, and it was as awful as it was, it was in some ways a gift for me to just be able to slow down and realize how introverted I actually am.

Yeah, it's a funny thing.

Yeah, And it's just I was like, okay, I'm just just going to be a mom I've got a couple of years left.

I really want to enjoy this.

Yeah.

My youngest also is a big dancer, so I was full on dance mom, all the hair and makeup till about fourteen when she's like, no, I got it moment.

Yeah.

And I was fundraising off the side of my desk too, form my free music schools, and I'm very actively involved in those, so, and I was continuing to tour a little bit, so writing just it kind of took a backseat for chunk years.

So but it probably doesn't feel like that long to you.

It does doesn't.

Yeah, that's the thing I think people think people have a perception of that between album things being much different than the person.

Yeah, because they're they're on the outside just waiting for the new material or waiting for something new, and.

We're you know, it's like what have you been doing?

What have I been doing?

We're busy living our lives, gaining experience, gaining hopefully some wisdoms so that we can write and have some perspective and feel like we have something to say.

So bet or broken.

Yeah, this is the title track.

Actually this is fourteen years old.

Really.

Yeah.

It was a song that was meant to go on my last record, and I think I didn't have a bridge at the time, and kind of we ran out of times, so I just archived it.

And then when we were thinking about material for this new record, I sort of was I had seven songs about a really ugly breakup that I went through, and that was like, you know, six or seven years ago.

When I pulled them back out and I realized that, A they weren't that good and b Oh my god, I don't want to give that any energy.

I'm so over it.

Now you're glad you got it out of your body.

I got it out of my body.

Done.

It was good therapy to write those songs, but nobody needs to hear them.

Yeah, well that's good.

I feel like that's a good self awareness.

The self editing is not always Yeah, people aren't always good at that.

No.

Well, I mean, unfortunately, it meant I didn't have enough material for the record, But I you know, getting into the studio creativity be gets more creativity, and it was easy to There was a bunch of other ideas that just kind of you know, came to fruition quite quickly being in that kind of environment.

But better Broken was yeah, the very first song, and it's funny that it ended up being the title track and the title of the record.

But it kind of is really apt, you know, for getting to fifty seven.

You know, all the challenges and struggles that we all face as humans.

Loss of both my parents and my brother to cancer, you know, disastrous failed marriage and relationships, you know, and challenges with my children like normal things.

Look, I'm really I'm lucky and blessed.

I live this ridiculous life because of music.

But you know, we still you have a lot of hard shit we have to deal with, and it's all relative.

So having music has been an incredible outlet and the idea of being better from all those challenges that we face.

You know, you have to pick yourself back up and keep moving forward and figure out how to do better and be better.

Yeah.

So resilience, that's right, That is the name of the game.

Amen.

You know what, I'm gonna put the dan broon because it just subtles it a little bit.

I kind of like that mute.

Maybe if I catch my breath, maybe I fait a little, I'd remember how it hurts and stop.

Before a fall.

I'd forget to come apart and catch myself and hold on tadley.

Let memory wash over me.

Forgive, but don't forget.

But you come back to me, begging away to leave.

Tell me why how could you let this go?

Let it be oh?

It is small and still mad, like a stone the jackets made smooth, but child, let it be all that is small and still be after alone.

Some things are better broken, Some things are better broken.

Luciens come flit and stains, swirling, lash and soft and perfect, to blur all.

The edges till everything looks fine.

Our Pretend I didn't cry.

You, pretend that you're my say both remember what.

We want to get us through the night.

Still come back to me, begging away to leave.

Tell me why how could you let this go?

Let it be hard.

It is small and still mad like a stone.

Jackets me smooth, chime, Let it be fart.

It is small and still better after lone.

Some things are better broken, Some things are better broken.

Let it be fall.

It is small and still bad.

Relaxed stone, jagg it It's.

Be smooth by chiding.

Let it be thought.

It is some moot us do.

Some things better broken.

Some things are better broken.

Some things are better broken.

Damn that feels skip to sing.

Right, See, it's the best music is Magic.

We met at the British School of Benefit.

That's the only time we've met.

I think that is the only Yeah, yeah, and that was so fun.

Hangs with you then Magic, they were.

Well I think I did three of those years, and what an incredible eclectic crew with musicians.

Yeah.

I remember Rail Montaigne.

From that one.

I don't know if I don't know, that was a different so and he.

I mean, I'm a massive, massive fan of his, and you know, I was trying not to sob listening to him perform.

And we shared very briefly same manager, Michael McDonald, And so I got to meet him afterwards with Michael, and he was just beating himself up and berating himself for the shitty job he had done.

And I'm just like, I took him by the lapels and I'm like, are you fucking crazy?

We're so talented, my god, you're stopping so hard on yourself.

That was like, okay, don't touch the man.

Artists are so tortured.

Sometimes we have no idea.

I mean, I guess we do from their music sometimes, but not really.

I mean, and I know in some ways we need that to propel us forward.

Yeah.

Like I I've grown up with a healthy dose of self loathing that I think has, you know, pushed me to to be better and to just work, work really hard at making this your absolute best or you suck.

There's no middle ground.

It's either you suck and you're an idiot, or it's fucking great.

Yeah exactly.

Would you tell me a little bit more about the music schools?

Yeah, sure, So.

It started almost twenty four years ago.

I took a big chunk of the money that I made during Lilith Fair put it into a foundation.

I mean, we gave over seven million dollars to charities, national and local women's charities from Lilith.

YEO, that's amazing.

I really wanted to continue the legacy of giving.

So I looked around trying to think.

At the time, I wasn't even sure what I wanted to do with it.

I just knew I wanted to figure something out.

And all the public schools were cutting their music programs.

This is in Canada.

This is in Canada.

Yeah, And I mean, I think it's kind of the same everywhere.

The arts are the kind of the first thing to go.

And I saw this happening, and I thought about what music did for me growing up, and I mean basically saved my life.

I don't think i'd be here if I hadn't have had that, that that medicine, that that salve, that safe space where I could just be myself and actually have something that I knew I was good at, and that fed me and gave me a sense of my own worth.

So to think that kids didn't have that opportunity just felt like, Oh, we're this whole generation is going to be missing out on something really profoundly important, like our social emotional growth, our sense of where we sit in the world, and our you know, our understanding of empathy and of each other.

Like all those things come into play when you when you create music, especially when you work together.

So making a kind of music, making a music tools seem like the right choice.

So cool, and so it's all encompassing, it's from the ground up, it's its own thing.

It's its own thing.

Yeah.

So it's it's an after school music and mentorship progress.

That's great.

Yeah, So I opted out of working with the school system.

I thought that's smart.

Going to stay out of it.

It's just there's so much bureaucracy total, so I thought, I'm just going to do something independently of it.

And it's for at risk and our serve children youth.

So socioeconomic is the first barrier to break down, but obviously social emotional as well.

But it's completely free, always has been, always will be.

And we started with two hundred kids in a pilot project and there's now over twelve hundred students a year over three schools in three different cities.

Wow.

Yeah, it's an incredible thing to be part of.

Like I can be having the crappiest day and all going to the school and everybody's happy and smiling and talking and laughing and every room has different music being made and it's just very joyful.

That's so great.

It's all over the map.

In terms of the curriculums, it's very flow like it's depending on six kids to one teacher, and the whole first year is all fundamental, so they kind of come in and they learn every instrument them and just kind of get a bit of a foundation, and then they branch off into various instruments and if they want private lessons, they can have that.

Oh, that's cool.

So you don't have to start that way?

Does it start at young age and go all the way?

So the school's grade four through twelve, But we have a pretty vibrant alumni program too, because you know, eighteen kids time out of the system total, and all of a sudden they're adults and they're they're not and there needs to be a bridge.

And is it at this point?

Is it like a nonprofit that you raise have to raise money for.

Yeah, our annual operating budget three point two million.

It's not cheap.

Wow, So if anybody wants to donate to it, Yeah, they're.

A school of music dot com.

That's great.

We have a five oh one C three here in the States, Friends of Seramaclauchlands Society, which you can donate to here in the States and you get a fully refundable or tax receipt.

And yeah, it's I mean, I've been fundraising for the last twenty four years for it.

You know, some years it's like all the gigs I do, money goes into the fund in the foundation goes like oh sure, okay, I gotta go do another gig.

Yeah that sounds amazing.

Yeah, it's really really fun.

To be part of the school next time.

I'm oh there please, Yeah, if you want to come do a little workshop or anything like that, I would hook you up in a hot second.

I'm not a great teacher.

I don't know if i'd be a good teacher.

I'm a terrible teacher.

Too fun to do something.

Just talk to kids, talk to some of the high school or as I said, like, there's a few who really do want to pursue music and it's really good for them to be able to talk to someone who's in the industry and you know, understands the challenges and just you know, have someone to shoot the ship with.

Totally.

Yeah, most of the kids just they just want a safe place to come and they get fed every day and and have.

A community, to have a place to go after school.

Well, a lot of their parents, if they have two parents, they're both working, you know, and they come home to an empty house and there's no food sometimes.

And you know, we had a couple of years ago there was a mom.

We didn't know what was going on, and she was living in the car, living in her car with her daughter.

You know.

So one of the cool things as well as we have a lot of community partners and we're able to offer assistance in other ways.

It's a community.

It's very much about the music even it's very much a communi community safe place.

Yeah, it's hard being a teenager.

It's isolating and lonely, and entire social media is awful.

I'm terrified of my kids getting to that place.

Yeah, it's just it's so scary.

There's so besieged.

Yea constantly with negativity and misinformation.

And you raised two girls, raised two daughters, and they were right at the perfect age for it to be extra Yeah.

So my firstborn was just it was at the beginning of social media, and she was deeply affected.

The wild West.

It was well, it still is, honestly it still is.

And my little one, because I think she had dance, she was just too busy to be so involved in it.

But my my firstborn for sure got taken a little bit more by it and was really influenced by it, and you know, felt judged, and which is the social media is a rating system, right, So post your picture in a bikini, you get a hundred likes.

You post a picture in a turtleneck and you're like, oh, why are you so boring, like so messed up.

Oh god, you know, I just think about how easily influenced I was as a teenager and as a young adult.

I'm so thankful I didn't have.

To deal with that same The Lilith Fair documentary is that out?

Yeah, well it's yeah, premunitate a tiff last week, okay, last Sunday, I think, and which was super exciting.

It's amazing, Like I obviously have seen all the iterations of it as we were editing, but to watch it on the big screen, Yeah, there's this weird kind of disconnect for me.

Of like, I know that's me.

I was wondering how that felt.

Obviously this like massive pride and like just I still can't quite put into words how cool it is to have something that you were part of encapsulated and in such a beautiful, succinct manner in a motion picture, basically a talking ventry for all to see.

And it's so joyful and beautiful and you know, and of course, you know you talked about all we talked about, all the challenges, all the things that people wanted it to be or didn't want it to be.

Yeah, did you have to fight through a lot?

Yeah, I mean I had to defend it every step of the way every day.

What year was the first little nineteen ninety seven, so it was the year Surfacing came out.

Yeah, okay, literally the Servicing came out I think a week after the first show at the Gorge.

Wow.

Yeah, which was crazy because I had never you know, didn't really know how to headline a festival.

And I was so excited about the new record that we played the whole new record at the end of a long day of music.

Now you as a musician, well, no, that probably didn't go over very well because it didn't nobody knew.

But they were so excited and they're such great songs.

Yeah, but.

You know, they were tired and they wanted the stuff that they were familiar with.

So it fell flat on his face, and I was like, I just really I felt I just just my part my performance at the end of the night.

I think I was probably exhausted too, because you know, you're trying to maintain your energy over the entire day and you're basically you know, you're up in the morning, it's go, go, go the whole day.

So yeah, we quickly pivoted and put a bunch of older material back in and then it was off to the races.

But yeah, that it was an incredible time that that record just I think very much because of Lilith and just getting out to this massive audience that I would never have been able to play in front of it if it hadn't been for all of us agreeing and sharing our audiences and bringing our you know, bringing ourselves together and to have way bigger audiences.

What was your moment where you had the idea the year before I wanted to do some shows in the summer.

I felt like, I don't want to have all the responsibility.

I don't want to do a big tour.

Wouldn't it be nice if maybe we have Paula Cole come again.

Guy had opened up, Paula Cold opened up for me, and there's all these other artists that are so cool.

You just want to hang out.

I just want to hang out.

Like it's a weird business, right, you know.

We're surrounded by men and I love I love my guys, I love my band, I love my crew, But I just thought this is I missed that that community that I think exists out there, and I want to be able to talk to my peers about this crazy job that we have and I want to sing with him too, so let's be honest.

So, you know, putting it together, there was like we talked to a couple of promoters that we knew really well, and they're like, well, okay, I don't know if this is going to work because you're not supposed to put to and back to back on a tour.

I'm like, well, I yeah, you laugh out loud, but I already had done that.

I had to fight.

That's what I had to fight is.

So we we incurred all the risk, the financial risk.

We did four shows, everyone sold out and it was very successful.

So then we went, this is amazing, this is so much fun.

Let's do it next summer as a full, full tour.

Okay, like all these other you know, festivals are completely male dominated, Like why are women being represented there?

You know, there's all these women having huge success in their own genres of music, So we'll just do it ourselves.

It was massive, and then all.

The promoters were like, oh no, no, no, you can't do that.

I'm like, well, we just did, and we sold out all these you sold out these four markets as a test run, and like, well, yeah, but no, I don't think you can.

I'm like, you know, so when someone tells me I can't.

Eight, wow, yeah, that's amazing.

And you know that was my mother, you know, in the back of my head, going why would you even try?

You're going to fail?

You know, you can't, you can't do this.

Don't don't go thinking anything special.

And honestly, that was the thing that propelled me, is like, I'm gonna prove I want to prove my mother wrong that I wasn't gonna with my record late, with my record contract, I wasn't going to come home pregnant or on drugs.

And you know, because that was her thing.

It's like, well, you're just gonna you're gonna fail and you're gonna, oh, you're going to mess up your life.

And yeah, I mean that that language that was her cross to bear, you know, like she was just very afraid for me, and that's how it was articulated.

But I wanted to prove her wrong.

And I came back ninety later with a record.

Now look, no no needle marks, moms still good, oh man.

But so the same thing with all these guys saying you can't do that, I'm like, well we just did and fuck you.

So the year is nineteen ninety seven and I got dropped off at college in Denton, Texas, and I'm have gone out for food or something, and I didn't know anybody, and I, well, that's a lie.

I didn't know people.

But at that night, that night, I was alone, and I came back and I remember being in the parking lot of my new dorm in my car and I was listening to the college radio and Angel comes on and I will never forget hearing a song for the first time as much as that song Wow, because it was it was like the stars were out.

It was just a crazy moment in my life.

And the song is just, you know, one of the best songs I think, thank you.

Yeah, it's just I love it.

It's such a beautiful song, thank You.

And I don't you know, I don't know anything about how it came to be or how you recorded it.

I I just knew that it hit me right right in the heart that night, and I've just always loved you since then.

Oh thank you.

Well, honestly, that's kind of how it came out.

That's that's what it sounds like.

I have never been prolific at all.

My writing is slow, painful process, especially lyrics.

And I had, actually I had read a Rolling Stone article about Jonathan Melvoyn, the keyboard player from Smashing Pumpkins who died odid on Heroin, and I had just come off the road of two and a half years.

I was exhausted.

The record label was screaming for a new record, and so I sequestered myself away in a little cotage in the Laurentis Kitana mcgarrigle's cottage and tried to write.

And you know, I couldn't or I was blocked.

So I went and got a bunch of magazines and started reading.

Anyway, so I read this article and I just had this flood of overwhelm and empathy and sadness and understanding.

I've never done Heroin, I never will, but just that desperate need to find some kind of release and some kind of escape.

And that song came out in like a day and a half start to finish, and the best one is, don't you think opened?

I was merely a vessel, you know, I just the universe opened up and I got to be the conduit.

And it's it's still one of my very favorite songs, like I never tire of playing it, I'm tired of hearing it.

I think the energy that has been created by going out in the world like I've had over the years sick so many people like connect with it and so many different profound levels, you know, and hard times in their life when it's like this was this is what we played when my mother passed, and as hard as it was, it gave us comfort.

And you know that's I could see that amazing validation as an artist, to know that you've created something that has gone out in the world and in some small way made someone's really tough time a little easier.

Absolutely, it has for so many people.

And of course the ASPCA can a.

Whole lot of dogs and cats, a whole lot of animals.

They raised so much money with that campaign.

Yeah, I think it kind of changed the face of fundraising a little bit.

I had no idea, honestly, you know, I had a couple of hours free and my friend was on the board said, hey, totally, you're thinking about having a celebrity endorsemen.

You want to do this?

Yeah, I love animals, I'll do this, Honestly, I had and then you pair the song with those images.

It's like just and I remember, you know, I was this is what I'm like, I'm kind of a goofball, and I remember the director just going I'm just a little more earnest, you know.

I'm like, oh, fuck, this is killing me, you know.

And then of course memes are created.

Yeah, oh I didn't.

I didn't say the memes.

But no, it's funny, you know.

It's like, you know, I remember someone said, oh, I'm Sara McLaughlin and I'm about to ruin your day.

Yeah.

No, that's funny, but you gotta take it.

Damn.

You got to take it because it worked.

Yep, it worked really really well.

Yeah.

Well, I love this song, and I asked you if you would, if you would consider doing a song from that album.

You could.

You could have said any song from that album.

I know them all so well.

So I'm glad you picked this song.

Yeah.

Do you wanna do you want to sing the second verse?

Sure?

Okay, yeah, do the whole second verse for me.

Okay, I might cry, but I'm gonna try not to.

Okay, what about the last chorus?

Do you want to?

Do you mind if I sneak in on a harmony, okay, because I've only practiced that harmony, you know, for a few times twenty something else.

I want to hear you sing wherever you want to sing.

It's in D flat, also a key.

Do you do it lower?

Oh my god, I've dumbed it down to D because oh that's up even yeah, dang girl, Yeah, yeah, I don't know what the hell I was thinking.

It's really hard because you have a very high crystal voice, and I was actually singing along.

I was like, I don't know if my voice can go that high.

Anyway, if I can anymore.

But also I was wondering, like that break in your voice, you know that, I don't know what you call it.

It it's like a glottal stop or whatever goes from It's not a yodel, but it's it kind of is though, pushing from from chest into head.

Have you always had that?

Is that something you sort of like worked on at a sort of.

You know, quite honestly, I stole that from Peter Gabriel.

Yeah, that's awesome, not gonna lie.

I was like, how does he do that?

And I just found a way and like, oh I can do that too.

That's cultivated.

Yeah, I tucked it.

I asked Gillian Welsh once where her yodel came from.

She said, she said she taught herself to do that on a long cross country trip.

Once.

I was like, oh, I didn't know I could like learn to do that.

I guess it's a muscle.

You just got to chain it.

You just got It's like pushing and pulling in there.

I don't know quite how I was to describe it, but all right, I don't know how I would explain it.

But no, you don't need to.

Also, you know you don't want to force it.

It's natural.

You spend a higher time waiting.

For that second chance, for the bright thown may it okay?

So it's some reason.

To feel luck good enough, And it's hard be.

And day.

Needs serve distraction.

Hard beautiful release.

The receep from her veins.

They empty.

Hot Samby for.

Some peace and name.

In thesly agent.

W free.

On miss too Chi.

In Thestness stache Fee.

You are.

From the Rickae on your sign three.

You're in the Arsly Angel for.

So comfort, so tired along the straight line.

And every way.

There's vultures and thieves at your back.

The storm keeps some twist.

You keep on building lines that you make up for all that you lack.

You don't make all.

Difference escaping one last, it's easier to believe in this sweet mans on its body saddays that brings me to Manies.

In the arms of the age.

Free from this time, cor Holital.

And we.

Set sach fig.

Ah.

You are.

From ang the wreckage.

We have sun.

Round three, you're in themsy ancient.

We f.

So comfort.

Yeah, so.

He thank you so much, beautiful, thank you, oh, thank you.

I love you.

I'm just gonna say it.

I know we've only met once before, but okay, we got I love you so much shared, thanks for doing shared things.

Yes, thank you.

Oh gosh, my pleasure.

Your dream really fun good good?

Oh that was so fun, God, so beautiful, what a dream?

That was amazing.

That was a high up song.

Yeah.

I might have cried a little, did you one single?

Tier down my cheek just a wonder.

Yeah, that was a real honor.

You know, she wanted to do songs from her new album.

And I was totally stoked, and I said, you know, if there's any way you could maybe do something from surfacing with me.

It was just a really huge album for me at that time.

She was like, oh cool, I think Angel makes the most sense and I was.

Like, I was so happy.

Thanks Sarah.

If you'd like to know what songs we played in this episode, the first one was called Only Human from Sarah's album Better Broken, released in twenty twenty five.

The second song was the title track from that same album, Better Broken.

The third song was Angel from the album Surfacing, released in nineteen ninety seven.

Special thanks to Sarah McLaughlin for joining us today.

Nor Jones Is Playing Along is a production of iHeart Podcasts.

I'm your host Nora Jones.

Visit Nora Jones channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there.

This episode was recorded by Matt Marinelli, mixed by Jamie Landry, Audio post production and mastering by Greg Tobler.

Additional video by Kay Loggins.

Artwork by Eliza Frye.

Photography by Shervin Linnez.

Produced by Nora Jones and Sarah Oda.

Executive producers Aaron Wang Kaufman and Jordan Rundog.

Marketing lead Queen and Akey.

Thanks a lot for listening.