[00:00:00] Michael Hawk: Have you ever found it tough to talk about big issues? Especially when people already have strong ideas? In the world of nature and climate, we often see communication that feels more like telling people what to do or how to think. It's easy for us to dig in our heels, even if we're wrong and shut down new ideas.

Today we're exploring a different path.

[00:00:19] Griff Griffith: I was very radical and had really bad ecological depression because was from the Bay Area and watched all my favorite places get destroyed.

So I was, really felt like the only thing left to do was to fight. And that's where I was at at 18, 19, 20. Pretty much all the way until 23, I was in a very radical mind state. Mostly angry and depressed.

[00:00:43] Michael Hawk: That's Griff Griffith. Someone many of you know is a passionate environmental communicator and a key collaborator with Jumpstart Nature. Like many Griff once felt that fighting and lecturing were the only ways to defend the places he loved. But a surprising encounter on a work site with a farmer [00:01:00] named Pops changed everything.

Griff realized that truly saving biodiversity needed a different approach. Today, Grif shares his remarkable personal transformation, revealing the power of nuance and communication, and how embracing a different approach can yield incredible results for nature. It's a candid and thought provoking conversation we can all learn from.

We also dive into how even dandelions can have a surprising place in conservation. Another vivid example of how our perspectives can evolve. Because this conversation embodies the spirit of both of our shows. I'm excited to release it on both the Nature's Archive and Jumpstart Nature Feeds. If you're listening on Nature's Archive, know that jumpstart Nature usually takes you on an immersive journey into thought provoking topics to help you save biodiversity.

And if you're on the Jumpstart nature Feed, Nature's Archive brings you deep dive interviews with the top minds in ecology, biodiversity, and nature more broadly,

Get ready because this summer we're gearing up for new episodes [00:02:00] across both feeds. Our new team of volunteers is hard at work, and we already have several amazing interviews recorded that I can't wait to share with you. For now, let's lean into G Griff's.

Truly inspirational story of personal transformation.

All right. Hey, Griff, it's nice to see you today.

[00:02:17] Griff Griffith: Hello?

[00:02:18] Michael Hawk: You and I have known each other for what, probably like four or five years now. And I'm constantly learning from you in a lot of different ways.

what has surprised me is, in the time I've known you, you've really had this focus about collaborating with people and reaching beyond the choir to connect people to nature.

And I've heard you tell some stories though, that that has not always been the case. So I wanted to dig into that a little bit and learn about like what has transformed you over the years.

[00:02:49] Griff Griffith: Well, you know Michael, you're from Nebraska and a lot of people in the United States are from different parts, and so they haven't seen the growth that I witnessed growing up in the Bay area of California. So California has doubled [00:03:00] more than doubled. Much more than doubled since I was born. I think by the time I was 40 it had doubled, and I know that's true 'cause I watched it double in my surroundings.

I, I grew up all over California. My dad moved us every three years, but mostly right around the Bay Area, especially Fairfield's, California and Vacaville California. And when I was a kid, and I've heard other conservationists say this before, but I would see those stakes go in with the orange spray pan or the pink ribbon tide around them pink flagging.

And , I would know that that meant that I was about to lose my favorite creek. I was about to lose my turtle pond. I was about to lose the field where I chased jackrabbits in. I was about to lose these places. And when they would come in, I would see them injure wildlife and ended up getting a relationship with the Wildlife Care Center in my area by the time I was 12.

So I was a volunteer the time I was 12 because I was watching nature be destroyed and there being orphaned animals. By the time I was 18 and joined the CCC, I moved to Ukiah, and that was during Redwood Summer. I met this woman named Betty Ball at Mendocino, environmental Center and [00:04:00] my life changed at that point because I went from angry watching the ponds. I caught turtles in be buried. No one caught the turtles out and rescued them, watching the creeks get put in culverts and no one getting out the stickleback and the frogs and everything else.

when I moved to Mendocino County and got introduced to Earth first as a 18-year-old, it was an outlet for all this anger, all this mourning, all this grief that I had from watching nature get destroyed around me. And so I didn't question it. I was angry. I reacted and I joined Earth first and I was pretty active So Earth First is an organization that's not really an organization. It's kind of more of just like a way of thinking that many different people in conservation groups would tap into at the time. Their slogan was no compromise in the Defense of Mother Earth. 

And so I became an earth firster and supported tree sits and blockades and did protests and stuff like that. I wasn't anti logger, because my, several of my family [00:05:00] members were loggers, but I was anti-big corporation, clear cutting. And I did have some anti logger sentiment 'cause a lot of them were like our jobs. And I was like, it's more than just your jobs. And I had a few experiences around that with my family and stuff. But I was very radical and had really bad ecological depression because was from the Bay Area and watched all my favorite places get destroyed.

So I was, really felt like the only thing left to do was to fight. And that's where I was at at 18, 19, 20. Pretty much all the way until 23, I was in a very radical mind state. Mostly angry and depressed.

[00:05:39] Michael Hawk: you told me recently, I think 23 was the magic age about a story of someone that you had met, named Pops and, and being part of this. So yeah. tell me again about that.

[00:05:51] Griff Griffith: who knew that the, what would, what would you call the person who changed my life? The pivot point of my life or whatever would be an old redneck on a quad. Like a [00:06:00] 80 something year old redneck on a quad with a hat that red pops. But I got a job with the Nature conservancy when I was 23. And you know, I was radical, I was more radical than them.

So when they interviewed me, they were like, would you use herbicide? No, I won't use that. No, you can't believe you got, I was. And they're like, oh, okay. And they're like, okay, we're gonna hire you anyways. So, even though at the time they were using herbicides, they just told me that I wouldn't be applying them and I'm not.

Anti judicious use of herbicides anymore. but at the time I was anti every, everything that wasn't absolutely natural. And we went out to this site where they were like, this is only a 10 acre site, but we can't get it to grow because someone keeps cutting the drip line. Someone keeps sabotaging the, well, someone pulls out the plants like we just, we don't know.

We're about to give up. And then all of a sudden we hear this and down the levy. 'cause we're right on the Sacramento River. this is part of the Sacramento River Project for the Nature Conservancy.

so down the levee comes this, Quad and there's like, [00:07:00] I don't remember how many of us, there was like six and they were showing the three new interns around and this guy came and he is like, what are you guys trying to do? Save the spotted owl, you guys trying to save some fish. And he talked down and humiliated our, my nature, my new nature conservancy bosses.

And I could tell they were scared of him. Like they were like physically frightened of this guy, even though he was 80 and on a quad. and he had pops on his hat and, you know, and pops looked at me and just didn't even take me seriously because I still looked like a earth firster. I had long hair, I had red, black and green beads on bunch of 'em for anti-apartheid protests.

I had on a, you know, probably some kind of radical t-shirt. Probably was wearing moins or sandals or something. Long hair, huge beard. Didn't shave for years He just disrespected us and, and then left and they were like, this is why we can't get it to grow. And they were all kind of like tail between their legs.

[00:08:00] So I wasn't totally unfamiliar with old redneck men. In fact, I had several of them in my family. So I went to my grandpa's house that night and told him what happened. And my grandpa was like my mentor, not until I was 16 'cause he couldn't relate to little kids. But once I turned 16, my grandpa and I became best friends and he, he looks at me and he is like, you know, I love you, my grandson.

That's why I would listen to you talk about all the things you talk about. He's like, but if I didn't know you and you're some hippie coming in with long hair beads smelling like peti oil with, you know, all your protest t-shirts, I would not take you seriously. I wouldn't take you seriously at all. 

I wouldn't listen to you. So you have to like, and that's why this guy pops, is not taking you seriously. 'cause you guys all look like a bunch of unemployed pot smokers and you have to decide, you know, what do you want? Do you want to make a fashion statement or do you want to protect nature? trying to be a model for some hippie clothing line or are you trying to get [00:09:00] people to embrace ecological restoration? You have to decide. And I realized how right he was. And so that week I cut my hair off, I shaved, I got a bunch of his Ben Davis shirts and a bunch of his other button up shirts

[00:09:19] Michael Hawk: What? What's a Ben Davis shirt?

[00:09:21] Griff Griffith: So just like it's a California brand that a lot that associated with a lot of like, you know, farm workers, farmers and loggers and stuff. I put on all that, cut my hair, got a baseball hat and boots, and went back to Nature Rinse, and they went, whoa, a makeover.

And I was like, yeah, I want the Loman sight, I want the sight out there with pops. 'cause it was just like, if I can't reach pops, we're doomed. if I can't reach my grandpa's people, my fam like, people like my family, we're doomed. We're not gonna save nature. And I think at the time there was like 4% of the riparian forest left on the Sacramento River and, you know, there was species like the yellow bill cuckoo go and extinct.

[00:10:00] And my grandpa made me realize that I was in the way of restoration because I did not look like anybody that these farmers would wanna collaborate with. And, you know, just changing the way I looked made. All the difference in the world. It was a crazy lesson. I'm sorry.

The world is like that folks. 'cause I, I can feel the hackles raising on people. 'cause my, my friends were not happy about this at all and called me a sellout even . and so I went back there and pops came out here and he warned me when I went out to the project, he came up and warned me there was a bunch of hippies out here that would probably do something to me.

Like they caught me trespassing. And I was like, I actually work for the Nature Conservancy. And he's like, what you trying to say? The spotted out. I said, spotted owls wouldn't live out here, pops. I was like, but there's barn s gopher getters that would, and he was like, ah, you know, Al and blah, blah, blah.

and I was like, how long have you lived here? And he is like 80 something years. And I was like, what did it look like when you're a kid? [00:11:00] That was the right question, Michael. That was the right question. It was a forest when he was a kid. He used to fish and go off rope swings. He was there before most of the levees, you know, that were in that area.

And I found out that pops, the person that they all s wore was the anti environmentalist, had several wood duck boxes on his property and that he missed the salmon that he used to fish for as a kid. And I would listen to him and, I'd ask him to help me fix the well, he somehow knew exactly what was wrong with it, and we fixed it really fast and somehow, and the line stopped being cut.

Pretty soon he was teaching me how to do better drip irrigation, how to, you know, check, pumps And we stopped having a pro stop having issues. And when you go out there now, and that was like 31 years ago when you go out there now, you would never guess that that forest was only 31 years.

Unless you knew plants, [00:12:00] unless you knew riparian trees, you would think that that was a hundred, 200, 300 year old place. Because riparian trees grow really thick and it's really dense in there. 

[00:12:10] Michael Hawk: So I wanna dig into a couple things that you said a little bit. I'm guessing, so you're talking about being on a levee. They, they, you know, as this happened in many parts of the world, You know, wild waterways have been channelized so that it used to be like a Delta or, what was it like back when Pops was a kid?

[00:12:28] Griff Griffith: Well, you know, there was some levees up when he was a kid. but it was much more meandering. There was a lot more meanders. There's a lot more oxbows, which are like when the river meanders out and then say it switches some, for some reason something happens up river and it switches and it goes another way.

It leaves this river shaped pond. So there'll be this pond that's river shaped, which is a, you know, like an abandoned channel. And there used to be a bunch of those all over the valley used to flood a lot. some of the first literate people who, you know, stood on the [00:13:00] mountains and overlooked the valley, thought it was a giant lake, because it flooded so much during the winter.

And there's just a lot more water. We've channelized and deepened the river in a lot of places and stuff. And so the water doesn't, it's not what it used to be. And that's a huge shame. And then we've built, and in those places, so it'd be very, very expensive to set those levees back, which is a shame because it would solve so many of our problems.

But that's what happens when you don't have regulations. And back then there wasn't as near as many regulations as there is today. So people got rich by, building right behind the levee. And now we have to deal with flooding issues, millions and millions of dollars of flooding issues ever since.

[00:13:36] Michael Hawk: Yeah. So I'm guessing like back then, you know, it wasn't like a swampy delta area, but with all these meanders, these oxbow lakes and all that, there were probably a whole lot more wood ducks. And I'm wondering, you know, when you said that he had wood duck boxes, was he still getting wood ducks or like, kind of trying to reminisce for the old days when he used to see 'em?

[00:13:55] Griff Griffith: No, he would get wood ducks and he would tell me about them. I can't remember exactly everything he said, 'cause [00:14:00] this is 31 years ago. But I remember being astounded at his knowledge of wood duck behavior, which like, I knew that he watched them. It wasn't just something he had and was checking a box, like, oh, yep, there's a wood ducks.

Yeah, no, he would sit out there and watch 'em. They tied him to his childhood. And he also told me about the salmon that he used to catch in the creeks around, the Sacramento River that don't exist anymore. and we would talk about why, 'cause I had already been doing salmon surveys for like four seasons by that time. And so we talked a lot about salmon and stuff and he became an ally and it was a huge life lesson because I had been fighting those kinds of people, you know, except for the ones in my family. But like out in public, I had been fighting those kinds of people and that was the turning point.

And since then, I ha haven't been fighting those kinds of people. And, I have learned that they just have different approaches and that if I really wanna save biodiversity, I have to connect with them. And that building a wall [00:15:00] between me and them is not going to save the yellow bill cuckoo or the salmon or the wood duck.

It's not going to. And so, you know, I'm having a relationship with them. I might not get everything that I want better is better than bad and worse, The relationship him and I had, we didn't agree on everything, but it got so much better and I was able to meet the goals of the Nature Conservancy by cutting my hair and getting outta my own way.

And that's been a lesson for me ever since and I'm guessing, like, there were a couple pivotal moments there. how many times did you talk to pops over the years and kind of start to build that rapport? 

over nine months. We, him and I talked all the time. He would see the truck, he would see my Nature Conservancy truck out there and when he, he would see them from his house 'cause there's nothing else out there.

It was just kind of in the middle of nowhere.

So every time I went out there, pops would come find me and we would go, we would talk. He was lonely, you know, he was out in the middle of nowhere. He was lonely. And, the only thing better than an enemy to, to vibe, you [00:16:00] know, to fill your time is to have a friend. So we became friends.

[00:16:04] Michael Hawk: So like kinda thinking about the, what happened here over that period of time, you made this conscious decision to look different, and that sounds like that was a difficult decision because you were alienating some of your friends and maybe going against the identity that you had built

[00:16:18] Griff Griffith: My sense of belonging, my tribe. you know, back then, this is before the internet and stuff, young people, if you're listening, it was a different world, a lot of hitchhiking going on. I would hitchhike and I would immediately get picked up by someone who looked like me, 

So it was really easy to travel through Northern California for me, and, I loved it. I loved being part of that tribe. I'm tribal by nature, you know, so. it felt like I was cutting myself off in a lot of the ways.

and then people didn't recognize me. So after that, I still went to some protests, like especially over headwaters up here, headwaters forest. But I always looked like the redneck guy or the cowboy that was there. I didn't look like them anymore because I felt like I didn't need to preach to the choir.

I felt like the choir was taken care of. I mean, sometimes the choir [00:17:00] needs to learn the lyrics to a new song, but I felt like they were all good and, and I felt like our divisiveness, our building walls between us and our partners, and our partners being like quote unquote rednecks or farmers or normal people or whatever you wanna call 'em, 

We were kind of all wearing a flag that was in opposition to them,

[00:17:17] Michael Hawk: what I'm getting at or driving towards is when you made that change, that physical change, the clothing, the haircut, all that, were you treating it kinda like an experiment? Like for example, if you hadn't had those encounters with Pops and actually seen that you, in this case were more effective in your conservation goals, would you have stuck with it, do you think?

or would you have, gone back to, your previous ways?

[00:17:42] Griff Griffith: No, I think I learned the lesson and for me, it was a little bit different than I think it was for a lot of other people because I already had pop's culture was a culture I was familiar with already, even though I grew up in the Bay Area and my family in the Bay Area wasn't like that.

I had a lot of family in Southern Oregon, Northern California, Eureka, uncles and cousins and stuff that were [00:18:00] laggers. And so I knew that they weren't bad people. And I think a lot of other, the earth Firsters who came from San Francisco thought that loggers and stuff were bad people.

I knew they weren't. I knew that, I was carrying a flag that made them already not take me seriously. And from that lesson, I've learned that about a lot of, a lot of places. Like I still will wear a lot of nature shirts, but they're not aggravating, they're not, triggering.

They're like, look how cool this flower is, or look how cool this snake is, or look how cool this lizard

[00:18:27] Michael Hawk: Yeah, they're kinda like conversation starters,

[00:18:29] Griff Griffith: conversation starters. Yeah. So I, I do dress like that and because dressing can be a way of showing people what tribe you belong to. 

Especially if you're trying to make the world a better place. Like you gotta be able to like, talk to people on both sides of the aisle or on all this, all the sides of the aisle. 

[00:18:45] Michael Hawk: you have clear priorities and saving biodiversity is like near the top for you. I've definitely heard it. And that, I think puts you in that mindset where you're open to engaging with people that we need on board to save biodiversity. And 

I agree with [00:19:00] the concept at least of, you know, we can't do it alone. And, so you have to have whatever is ethically, morally safe for yourself. You know, that sort of priority stack to decide, okay, who am I gonna engage with? I'm sure you have a line and you won't cross a line, and engage with someone who is, downright evil.

But,

[00:19:21] Griff Griffith: Or yeah, just not willing to listen no matter what you say. 

[00:19:24] Michael Hawk: and I think it's important to think about that in advance. Like, you know, who am I trying to reach? Where is that line? So you can be more open and more prepared when you encounter people who maybe in 50% of the rest of your life you disagree with.

[00:19:39] Griff Griffith: Yeah. And, you know, people don't have to do what I'm doing. like, if you wanna stay tribal and have your community, like the community needs strength and support too, like, you know, don't feel like you have to do what I'm doing. But if you're gonna be an advocate, you have to ask yourself, am I being exclusionary ?

You know, am I excluding people from this conversation Am I trying to have a conversation with the same time making them feel [00:20:00] Excluded. Like, you gotta ask yourself that.

[00:20:02] Michael Hawk: right. So as a, public communicator, an advocate, a conservationist, what would you like people to take away from your story? How might they apply some of the bits and pieces that you've learned?

[00:20:14] Griff Griffith: What I would like people to take away from this, it's like, it's not just clothing. I'm not saying like, get your hair done so you can be a better conservationist. I'm saying that, We have to prioritize.

And sometimes there's a lot, there's like say like, I had 20 very, you know, very important things, but there was one that was by far more important, but that maybe, you know, maintaining all 19, all other 19 important things was gonna distract from that most important message. So, you know, like over the years, I don't talk about politics.

I try not to get into very many controversial issues publicly because I've dedicated my life to helping people connect to nature and diversity. And so that's where I stay. And, you know, we don't have to be experts or have a comment about everything in life. You can prioritize what's important to you and keep it there.

And then just try to [00:21:00] seek common ground with people. So, you know, as a conservationist, I've met very few people who are like, oh, I don't care about native bees. They can all die. I don't care about blah, blah. there's not a lot of those.

I feel like just if there's something that's getting in the way of you doing a good job with something, then address it and see if you can change it to be more effective for nature.

[00:21:19] Michael Hawk: Changing topics here, changing gears. We had an interesting conversation, I don't know, that was a couple weeks ago.

Our Jumpstart Nature newsletter. And if anyone listening is unfamiliar with it, you can sign up right on our website. it's pretty short. Usually one or two short articles. A couple of tidbits of interesting things that you might be able to check out, online. documentaries, things like that.

that's sort of what the newsletter is about. And we focus on our mission of, you know, saving biodiversity, connecting people to nature. But one of the stories that we had was about dandelions and it generated, a fair amount of discussion. And I think it was really open to [00:22:00] interpretation, kind of colored by people's personal, perspectives on, what dandelions are all about.

And, the premise of the article for those who didn't read it was how, in certain cases, dandelions might have a place, even in your yard. so I'd like, you know, before I say anymore, I'd like to get your insights because you didn't review the article. we published it, separate and what was your.

Interpretation of it when you saw it.

[00:22:30] Griff Griffith: Initially, my first response was, why in the world are we using space to talk about dandelions? so many native plants? That we should be investing our time towards. And let me explain where that comes from. I have been pulling invasive weeds, invasive plants since I was 18. Like for so many different, you know, nature Conservancy, California Conservation Corps, forest Service, volunteering, like state [00:23:00] parks. I've, I have pulled invasive plants so many places and I've watched endangered species come back right behind us within a year.

You like the beach Lee? or the Humboldt Wallflower When I've pulled, European Beach grass off the dunes, I'm very well aware of how bad invasive plants reduce biodiversity. At first, they increase it because they add themselves to the overall mix, and then they decrease it because they end up out competing everybody and shrinking that, the footprint of native species and all the things that depend on them.

So I've never understood the dandelion craze. And advocacy because I haven't lived in suburbia since I was a teenager. But then after I, I read that article and I thought about it and I was like, you know, there's something here. And then I remembered I had this memory of my grandma when I was a little boy and standing in our front yard and we had, you know, we were in suburbia by the time I was eight or nine I think. [00:24:00] And there was a dandelion with a flower on it. And my, I remember my grandma saying, good thing that dandelion is there 'cause the bees need something to eat.

Okay. My grandma was a major gardener and she's the reason why I got interested in plants. But I remember that conversation I had with her because of this, you know, lawn that was an. All along my street, and this is after, you know, they buried the creeks and the ponds and plowed through the fields and destroyed all the plants.

And then everybody planted their, you know, landscape that was full of plants from Asia and Europe and here comes the dandelion, which is also from Europe. And the bees would, the European honeybee would land on it, but I didn't know that it wasn't native at the time. And this dandelion was the one place that had food.

But you know, if that dandelion wouldn't have been there, I may have never seen European honeybees. So I'm starting to think about this differently now. So not as a person who's been doing invasive species removal for 30 plus [00:25:00] years, but as someone who's hasn't spent a lot of time outside of suburbia, doesn't know the difference between native and non-native plants.

Dandelion are kinda like the gateway drugged wildflowers, so. When you see dandelions and it's the only thing in your vast sea of cut green that can sprout flower quickly enough to, you know, capitalize on your mowing rotation. You know, because usually dandelions are the ones that can do that. 

So I can see why people love and celebrate dandelions. 'cause that's the wildflower they know.

[00:25:35] Michael Hawk: Yeah. It's a gateway in a lot of different respects. So like, you know when, when we were putting this article together. I thought about how, I think there were some studies out of Europe because as you said, what we think of as a dandelion is typically the European dandelion. But just like with any common name, you know, the, the non-Latin, the non botanical name of something, there are lots of other dandelions as well.

And when I say [00:26:00] dandelion, different species might be coming, you know, to people's minds in, in fact, 

there are native flowers here in California that have common names of dandelion in them. but I don't think most people are thinking about

[00:26:13] Griff Griffith: and central US, there's the false dandelion that grows from Montana to Missouri,

just like a dandelion, 

[00:26:18] Michael Hawk: yeah, exactly. So, so like there's that level of nuance. But anyway, where I was going with this was there were some studies out of Europe.

Showing the benefits of dandelions. And I think a lot of well-intentioned people took that to mean like, okay, dandelions are great everywhere, and, and they overplayed it a little bit.

[00:26:37] Griff Griffith: That's one of the things about social media that nature lover's gotta be aware of is that a lot of things are true in their native. Habitats that aren't true once that species becomes non-native, because, they have relationships where they're from with things that have evolved over, millions of years or thousands of years, however you wanna think about it.

But when you bring them out here without their predators and competitors and the things that benefit from them, they become [00:27:00] weeds.

[00:27:00] Michael Hawk: so it was overplayed a little bit. Then there was some backlash, you know, against that overplay. But what made me really think that, yeah, this is still a good article for us, is right in line with the idea of kind of taking steps to connect with nature, to connect with biodiversity. Even if it's a non-native plant, in some cases invasive.

So yeah, if they're truly invasive, yeah, we should be getting rid of them. but if it convinces somebody not to blanketly apply herbicide, you know, on their lawns, like that's a win, that's a start. you know, it's the first baby step towards embracing a more biodiverse suburban landscape.

[00:27:44] Griff Griffith: And also just recognizing relationships because you see that the bee is not benefiting from your grass, it's going to your dandelion.

[00:27:52] Michael Hawk: Hmm.

[00:27:53] Griff Griffith: And so like you see like that's how a lot of people learn about. That's, you know, dandelions are a lot of [00:28:00] Americans first example of seeing like pollination.

[00:28:04] Michael Hawk: I remember seeing, like those late summer butterflies, the skippers, you know, the skippers can use some grasses as well, but they would also nectar on the dandelions. so yeah, you can start to notice some things with dandelions.

[00:28:18] Griff Griffith: That being said, dandelions is a good starter kit, but once you appreciate that dandelions have flowers and that. They have tons of medicinal properties, just like our native plants do. they do provide pollen, although it is a low, it's not the pollen that our bees evolved for.

So it's, you know, weaker in the protein section. And if it's all your, pollinators have, they probably wouldn't survive if it was, if it was just a dandelion world. A lot of our native bees may not survive. 'cause it's like, it's not the quality for North

[00:28:51] Michael Hawk: definitely. I think that's proven. 

[00:28:52] Griff Griffith: A lot of people don't realize that pollen's not like, you know, it's like there's not one flavor of Kool-Aid.

There's a whole bunch of flavors of Kool-Aid and it's the same thing with, [00:29:00] pollen and nectar. Nectar is different. You know, according to plant even has drugs in it. A lot of nectar has like caffeine or opiates and stuff in it. You know, they're specified for the pollinators in their area.

Yes. Some nectar has drugs, , and they have different ingredients. Like there's not one pollen recipe for the whole plant world. And so when a flower has lived someplace since time immemorial, the things that live with it have evolved for it.

[00:29:28] Michael Hawk: that's one of those ecological concepts that if you're a wild animal. You're constantly managing your energy and, anything that is not giving you the energy you need or is causing you to expend energy that you may not have in reserve, is going to shorten your life, or make you less likely to be able to reproduce.

And I think that's one of the kind of subtle nuances. I mean, this whole discussion has been about nuance, and that's one of the things that I like to incorporate into jumpstart nature because [00:30:00] rarely are there, clear cut answers for the problems that we face. so many other aspects of ecology are gonna vary based on season, location, climate, you know, how other ways that we've disrupted a natural ecosystem, you know, so this is, this is a good sort of example.

of that and, and totally agree by the way that, you know, it's a, gateway and, we don't recommend that you make a lawn full of dandelions to restore biodiversity. 

[00:30:30] Griff Griffith: But do not shame the dandelion lovers either because they are like, they're people who are primed to level up in the biodiversity game. If they, if someone loves dandelions, it's, means that they have the capacity to become an amazing conservationist, native plant gardener.

And so the last thing we wanna do is make them feel like they gotta, you know, like die on the dandelion island defending it, you know, it's like shaming. We gotta stop the [00:31:00] shaming, across the board in the, in the conservation world. when we're talking about fellow conservationists, and I, and I see this Michael in my own work, because we have to thin out these over planted forests, these tree plantations, but there's people who are like, every tree life matters, you know?

And it's like. I love that. You know, I don't consider those people the enemy. there're people who love trees, like we're on the same page, they just don't understand forest. So we need to help them understand that, you know, there was only 10 to a hundred trees per acre and that's, you know, before the cutting started and now there's 200 to a thousand.

And when you have a thousand trees per acre, you no longer have your flowering and plants and the plants that produce berries. So you no longer have your pollinators or your wildlife. And once you start talking to 'em like that, they eventually come around. It's the same thing with the dandelions. Like dandelion levers are primed.

They're like their, at their first year at Hogwarts, like if we keep them in school, they're gonna be powerful native plant biodiversity wizards someday. And so we shouldn't shame them [00:32:00] into quitting.

[00:32:01] Michael Hawk: So how might you help, you know, quote unquote level up some of those people?

[00:32:06] Griff Griffith: it's kind of a yes and approach, like when I deal with, because I deal with a lot of people. ask 'em about their dandelions, like what do you like about dandelions?

and they could talk about how dandelions are early bloomer. So it's helping the, bumblebee queens that are coming out and trying to get as much nectar and stuff to start their colonies.

But what they really want is they really want some of the native trees and bushes so you can keep your dandelions and your grass. But why don't you plant some like Manzanita early blooming too. And they're actually what the Bumblebee evolved with. And it's a beautiful bush 

For those of us who know native plants, help these dandelion people, reach the next level and if you're in California, you can go to cal scape.org.

If you're not in California, you can go to homegrown national park.org or native plant finders, but native plant finder. And you could have native blooms that the native bees, you know, evolved with native pollinators, evolved with. And in your lawn area, you can keep your dandelions. And [00:33:00] so even your lawn will have pretty flowers, but around it, you could have some native plants.

So using a yes and approach. And then if this person, you know, gets into it and they start reading Doug Tallamy books like, you know, bringing Nature Home and Nature's Best Hope and that kind of stuff, then pretty soon they might not have any more dandelions in their yard because they realize that dandelions aren't necessary.

And if they're doing it for the medicinal uses, there's a lot of other medicinal uses. Native Americans didn't have dandelions, so they did their medicinal, investigations on all the other plants. So if you look and if you check out books like, braiding Sweetgrass, you can get an introduction to this mindset of like, our plants around us.

they're interacting with animals, including ourselves, they can benefit us in lots of different ways. It's not just dandelions. Dandelions aren't the only super medicinal plant. There's tons of them and many of them are native plants.

Like I tell people, the indigenous folks of North and South America didn't have dandelions, And when dandelions came here, the tribes were like, oh my gosh, finally this plant has arrived. Like no one did that.

[00:33:58] Michael Hawk: Yeah. Now we can survive.[00:34:00]

[00:34:00] Griff Griffith: Now we can survive 'cause dandelions are here. You know, it's not, that's, my people are from Europe and so like, I'm sure that my genetic lineage has had a relationship with dandelions since time and Memorial. But I don't live where my, where I'm indigenous to and there we've brought a lot of plants over and we can't be perfect.

It's kind of like what Zoe Weill says from the Institute of Humane Education. there's always gonna be bad, but there can be better inside of bad. we might not be able to fix everything, but we can put native plants in our yard and make things better. We might not be able to fix everything, but we can reduce our lawn and our dandelions and plant some manzanitas or whatever is native to our area that will help the pollinators.

[00:34:40] Michael Hawk: I forget how long you've been at your current place, but you, started to re landscape the place you're at now with native plants and, I'm just curious what surprises, have you found, like difficulties or things that have worked out better than you expected in your own place with native plants?

[00:34:56] Griff Griffith: I've only lived in like towns a couple times in my life and hardly [00:35:00] at all since I've been 18. And so a year ago I moved to this like densely populated part of Eure, Eureka Eureka's a small town, but it's pretty densely populated. It looks more like a neighborhood in San Francisco than a small town.

And I'm in a house that was built in like 1907. So this has been a neighborhood for a very long time. And in the backyard was a bunch of Victorian era landscape plants which I left because they're tell us cultural story. they're not invasive, but the invasive ones, which there were many.

I removed them, and I'm still removing them. It's still a fight, especially the distortions and the European onion

, But what I noticed was there was a surprisingly amount of wildlife here already. There was a Cooper Hawk in my backyard, black Phoebe's, all kinds of different birds.

'cause I use the Merlin app. If you guys don't use the Merlin app, it's free and it listens to bird calls for you. And we'll tell you what they are

and then you can

[00:35:55] Michael Hawk: talk about helping people on their, you know, personal journey [00:36:00] to connecting with nature. Merlin is such a great way to do it. Like I've, I've had so many people who I had no idea they had any interest in nature, and somehow they tried out Merlin and they're kind of addicted to it now they'll,

[00:36:13] Griff Griffith: Oh yeah, Merlin makes, Merlin makes you interested in nature. It really does. Like, because it demystify these sounds you've heard all your life. And then you get to put a face to a, a name almost, you know, a face to a song. and then you can learn about how you can benefit that singer in your yard.

You know, you can keep your cats inside Episode 10 of Jumpstart Nature. You can plant Native Plants, episode one and two of Jumpstart Nature podcast. So, Merlin is another great gateway drug to, biodiversity. So. I got an idea what lived in my yard bird wise. And then, I noticed that I had native bees living in my house.

Like so they lived in this little hole and, and they don't chew, they're not like some of the carpenter bees or whatever, carpenter bees aren't that bad. You can like give them, put some old wood out and they'll stay outta your [00:37:00] house and they'll go for the old one. Just as a side note, but I noticed there was native bees and there's so much, there's so many more native bees and syrphid flies, especially syrphid flies that live here. I mean, I got spittle bugs in my neighborhood. I've got all kinds of different moths. I had no idea that the insects would still be here. like they are. And the more native plants I planted, the more I noticed them. And I even have gall insects and stuff like that I had no idea they would be here 'cause I'm not really used to living in towns. But, There's enough native plants close by. I think that's kept populations and I think enough native plants in people's yards. So we still have some of these populations. And so I think my yard now isn't just a fragmented habitat.

I think it's part of a corridor. I think. 'cause I, you know, I've walked around and stared in people's yards. So if you've seen a big guy in a cowboy hat staring at your yard in Eureka, don't be creeped out. It's me looking at your native plants. And, so I found out that I'm part of corridors for insects, my native plants.

I'm not the only [00:38:00] one. So it's really cool. There's so many more here than I thought. 

[00:38:03] Michael Hawk: Yeah, we've talked before about how insects are kind of the foundation. I mean, plants are the true foundation to everything, but insects are like

 they're right. Yeah. That half step above plants. and if you have insects, you're gonna have all those birds that don't eat seeds, around.

It's been maybe three years since we've redid our yard with native plants.

And the things that we should have in our area are showing up now.

Like we never had a California quail in our

[00:38:30] Griff Griffith: Hm.

[00:38:31] Michael Hawk: and. We had a covey of quail in our yard for the first time last summer.

So like, that was a big milestone, 

And similarly, I couldn't understand why I'd hardly ever see Western Fence lizard, which is just sort of like the ubiquitous coastal lizard in our area. You see 'em everywhere, but you know, why not my yard?

And I, I know of, fence lizards in both my front and backyard now. So those are just a couple of small observations that I've had since, you know, taking the leap

every time I see [00:39:00] them, I feel good about, what we're doing for biodiversity in our own little plot of land.

[00:39:05] Griff Griffith: Yeah. and thank goodness for Doug Tallamy and the folks like him. you know, the people that are, that are, out there. Teaching folks actively about native plants. 'cause you can really create a little biodiversity hotspot in your backyard, even on your balcony.

You know, it's possible. And there's so many cool tools now, like we talked about the Merlin app, which is free, iNaturalist seek, which will help you identify things for free , .

Once you start knowing the birds are around and you might be like, oh, I've got white crown sparrows. What do they eat in spring? Okay, they're eating insects. 'cause they're feeding insects to their babies. What do they eat in fall? Well now there's gonna be more plant seed foods mixed in and so you can plant native plants to go with them.

I really like, how native plant finder and cal scape will tell you what butterflies lay their eggs on your plant to be host plants. 'cause a lot of people don't realize the monarch and milkweed story where the monarch [00:40:00] has to have milkweed. That's a common story. that's not just Monarch story.

that's a lot of their brothers and sisters like what, 95% of insects are like specific to like a family of plants. So when you plant plants, you can actually decide what moths and butterflies you wanna see and plant the plants that will attract them.

You know, it might take the moths and butterflies a while to find them if you're in the middle of the city. Do you wanna see monarchs in your yard? if you got the money for it, buy a hundred milkweed plants and give them to your neighbors so that you have a lot of milkweed in your area for the butterflies to find.

[00:40:31] Michael Hawk: were talking about your place being kind of like a corridor, like a stopping point along a corridor and, you know, a lot of insects, , they can't go very far. So they need these little stopover points that, you know, maybe every, hundred meters or so, sometimes certain insects, even less, like they can only go tens of feet,

[00:40:52] Griff Griffith: Yeah. 200 feet is like a max for a lot of native bees, 

[00:40:55] Michael Hawk: Yeah. So I think, I think that helps, at least for me, it reminds me of the [00:41:00] importance of not just doing it in my own space, but, you know, advocating with others,

[00:41:07] Griff Griffith: if you have a yard and you wish your neighbors would, also have native plants, great gift idea. Hey, Merry Christmas, I brought you over some of these flowers. check with them first to make sure they're not just gonna throw 'em away, 

But like, do you have a little space in your yard? 'cause I have a gift in mind for you. It's a native plant that attracts this beautiful butterfly. Are you game? If they're like, yes. Oh, well here's a plant. this attracts this butterfly. So, there's things you can do to increase biodiversity in your neighborhood, outside of your yard too.

there's these alleys behind my house that no one's landscaping and they're full of weeds and stuff. So I went and planted a lot of cuttings in them, like willow cuttings and twin berry cuttings and speria cuttings and stuff like that.

You know, I don't know how many of 'em will survive, but if one of them survives, especially willow 'cause willow's like the second biggest. Condominiums for [00:42:00] insects. you know, one big willow plant might be able to support a brood of native insects. I mean, a native bird, excuse me.

You know, it doesn't take a whole lot of willow plants and oak trees to support a brood of baby birds. So, and that's another thing if we're gonna buy your neighbors that don't really give a crap about native plants. If you wanna, if you wanna buy them native plant, trying to make sure it's a keystone species.

You want to, define what a keystone species is for folks.

[00:42:25] Michael Hawk: Yeah, I mean, the famous Roman arches that many of which still exist today, what kept that arch up, you know, say it's supporting a bridge or something like that, was this special wedge shaped stone at the very top called a keystone.

And if you take away that keystone, the whole thing collapses. And we can use that metaphor to, represent ecosystems. There are certain species that support the whole thing, that really support the entire ecosystem. And then the other pieces are needed as well. But without that keystone, [00:43:00] you can't have any of it.

So, that's what oak trees, that's what willows, that's what, golden rods in some places. Like there's, there's a lot of different ones. Large and Small. But I think oaks and willows are, right up there at the top.

[00:43:12] Griff Griffith: Yeah. And those make great gifts. 

[00:43:15] Michael Hawk: Griff, you know, this is,has always been enlightening for me and I think something that might be helpful for listeners that want to get out and do something is, making it a little bit more actionable. Like some tips or some, observations of things that have worked well that maybe others could apply.

So do you have any tips or suggestions for people looking to. expand their native plant footprint.

[00:43:39] Griff Griffith: Yeah. remember not to shame the dandelion folks, but instead maybe introduce 'em to Golden Rod, some other beautiful flowers that have more connections for native wildlife. So don't shame. let's see. We, let's make up a moniker for it or something. a dash or whatever. Don't shame, up the [00:44:00] game.

[00:44:00] Michael Hawk: Not bad. For top of head.

[00:44:01] Griff Griffith: Don't shame up the game. So they have dandelions and love dandelions and introduce 'em to native plants. Okay? Don't tell 'em. Get rid of your dandelions. Tell 'em, oh, add these, and the bees will love you even more. and I guess the second one would be give people the gift of a native plant. especially, you know, if it's a person doesn't really care if they're looking for a tree, buy them a native oak tree.

Buy them a native willow. You know, find out like what they want. Do they want evergreen or deciduous? And then buy it for 'em instead of wishing that they would do it, just do it for 'em. If you have the means, some of us don't have the means, some of us do. If you have the means, then by all means do it. ,

[00:44:36] Michael Hawk: Something that, that I've been trying to do is, yeah, we, we bought some plants and pots and planted them, and that sort of was the basis for our transformation.

But I've been getting into the seeds a little bit more and trying to plant some native seeds. . And, you know, I'm, I'm gonna admit, it's, it was harder than I expected to plant native seeds. And here in California there's a lot [00:45:00] of, a lot of the annual flowers that, you just really, you know, it seems simple.

You drop the seeds on top of the soil, they need to be on top of the soil, they need to have the warmth and the UV from the sun to actually germinate. But when they're on top of the soil, that means that birds can come along and eat them. Or ants, maybe if you have like harvester ants or something might come along and take them.

so, you know, I found that to be a little more difficult than I expected. so the tip that I would have for people is, put a few rocks, light mulch or something to have some nooks and crannies and, things like that to give more, like a less homogenous soil, like more places for seeds to potentially take hold.

and, and that's not very hard to do.

[00:45:45] Griff Griffith: and also you can plant starter plants like I planted starter meta foam and poppies and pearly everlasting. I planted those plants in one area of my yard and they all seeded out really good. And I got, [00:46:00] even more plants this year. So, yeah, sometimes you gotta start with a plant and then you can even supplement.

So you can even plant more seeds to help your plant, like just to have it more there for the birds.

[00:46:11] Michael Hawk: of that. And that reminds me of, of a really interesting fact. So like in California we have the California poppy, which is one of the, the best known, it's a state flower in fact. And what I learned is one poppy plant can produce between 10,000 and 200,000 seeds.

[00:46:28] Griff Griffith: I believe it.

[00:46:29] Michael Hawk: Yeah, so like when you think about buying a packet of 10 seeds or 20 seeds, and hoping that they're all going to grow, one of the strategies that some of these plants have is they produce so much that those birds and ants can't eat everything.

if you're only planting a packet of 10 or 20 or 50 seeds, you kind of have to give them a little extra support to make it work.

[00:46:48] Griff Griffith: Yep. 

[00:46:49] Michael Hawk: So, Griff, thank you so much. this, this was fun. This was a little different It was fun and, and maybe we'll do some more in the future.

[00:46:56] Griff Griffith: right on. Talk to you soon.