1 00:00:00,210 --> 00:00:02,430 Welcome back to the episode of the Startup Therapy Podcast. 2 00:00:02,430 --> 00:00:04,200 This is Ryan Rutan, joined as always by my 3 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:06,840 friend, the founder, and CEO of startups.com. 4 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:11,070 Will Schroeder will, one of the hardest parts of being a 5 00:00:11,070 --> 00:00:16,525 founder is building the company while realizing that you're not. 6 00:00:17,505 --> 00:00:21,015 Fully in sync, lockstep synchronicity with 7 00:00:21,015 --> 00:00:22,935 the people around you. 8 00:00:23,055 --> 00:00:24,525 And you know, we hear people say things like, 9 00:00:24,525 --> 00:00:25,455 you know, build alignment. 10 00:00:25,634 --> 00:00:28,965 They forget to tell you in their brochure is that alignment 11 00:00:28,965 --> 00:00:30,884 is, is largely fictional. 12 00:00:31,035 --> 00:00:33,375 And like we love, of course we love to imagine that we're all 13 00:00:33,375 --> 00:00:36,795 on the same team, but like ever watch the ship take on water, 14 00:00:36,795 --> 00:00:37,720 it becomes really apparent. 15 00:00:38,324 --> 00:00:41,625 Who has a life fest and who doesn't goes down 16 00:00:41,625 --> 00:00:42,885 with the ship super fast. 17 00:00:42,885 --> 00:00:46,275 And so after decades of trying to force alignment, I 18 00:00:46,275 --> 00:00:50,714 think I've realized it's less about sinking goals and more 19 00:00:50,714 --> 00:00:55,455 about managing fundamentally misaligned expectations. 20 00:00:55,724 --> 00:00:55,875 Yeah. 21 00:00:55,875 --> 00:00:56,745 And foundations, right. 22 00:00:57,390 --> 00:00:59,850 The big, the big question is, you know, are, are we 23 00:00:59,850 --> 00:01:02,520 really aligned with everyone around us, our employees, 24 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:04,530 co-founders, even our spouses? 25 00:01:04,530 --> 00:01:04,830 Right. 26 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:05,700 Are we 27 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:06,240 right? 28 00:01:06,245 --> 00:01:08,100 You know, you and I did a whole episode on this as 29 00:01:08,100 --> 00:01:09,480 it related to investors. 30 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:09,570 Yes. 31 00:01:09,900 --> 00:01:12,030 'cause investors love to say, you know, we're gonna 32 00:01:12,030 --> 00:01:13,980 be on the same side of the table and we're aligned. 33 00:01:13,980 --> 00:01:15,330 And I'm like, no, you're not. 34 00:01:16,115 --> 00:01:16,925 Not a good remote line. 35 00:01:16,925 --> 00:01:17,675 They're cheating because 36 00:01:17,675 --> 00:01:20,315 they mean that, but it's a round table will. 37 00:01:20,345 --> 00:01:22,205 So it's not, it's not fair. 38 00:01:22,265 --> 00:01:23,165 It's a round table. 39 00:01:23,165 --> 00:01:25,835 So just by definition, we're all on the same side of Same. 40 00:01:25,835 --> 00:01:25,895 Yeah. 41 00:01:25,895 --> 00:01:26,135 Right. 42 00:01:26,135 --> 00:01:26,145 Right. 43 00:01:26,145 --> 00:01:26,765 That's right. 44 00:01:26,770 --> 00:01:26,830 Right. 45 00:01:26,945 --> 00:01:29,075 And I just think about like, I thought that argument 46 00:01:29,075 --> 00:01:32,585 was so hollow uhhuh, and it sounds cool, but it's 47 00:01:32,585 --> 00:01:34,265 just so incredibly untrue. 48 00:01:34,805 --> 00:01:34,955 Yeah. 49 00:01:35,015 --> 00:01:37,805 But with this episode, I think we need to go beyond the 50 00:01:37,805 --> 00:01:39,425 investors because this same. 51 00:01:39,810 --> 00:01:42,480 Fake alignment problem where we wanna be aligned, 52 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:43,315 but we're just not. 53 00:01:43,315 --> 00:01:45,750 Just not is, as you said, as much of a problem 54 00:01:45,900 --> 00:01:48,870 with co-founders, with employees, with spouses. 55 00:01:48,870 --> 00:01:50,250 And I think we should talk about spouses too. 56 00:01:50,250 --> 00:01:50,340 Yep. 57 00:01:50,670 --> 00:01:53,160 Because they're like the unsung hero or villain. 58 00:01:53,910 --> 00:01:54,030 Yes. 59 00:01:54,030 --> 00:01:55,440 Depending on how your relationship goes. 60 00:01:55,740 --> 00:01:58,680 They're an ever present high leverage personality 61 00:01:58,680 --> 00:01:59,155 in all of this. 62 00:01:59,155 --> 00:01:59,435 Right. 63 00:02:00,015 --> 00:02:00,195 Yeah. 64 00:02:00,195 --> 00:02:02,055 You know Ryan, I've never thought about it like that. 65 00:02:02,055 --> 00:02:03,795 A high leverage personality. 66 00:02:03,855 --> 00:02:04,845 That's absolutely true. 67 00:02:04,875 --> 00:02:05,685 That's really well put. 68 00:02:05,955 --> 00:02:07,635 It'll be the last time I say something that's smart today. 69 00:02:07,635 --> 00:02:08,295 So yeah, we're all done. 70 00:02:08,295 --> 00:02:08,445 Take on. 71 00:02:08,530 --> 00:02:08,730 Thank you. 72 00:02:08,805 --> 00:02:10,815 Thank everybody for being part of the service podcast. 73 00:02:10,815 --> 00:02:11,685 That's a wrap and I'm done. 74 00:02:13,305 --> 00:02:16,305 So lemme say this, I struggled with this 75 00:02:16,485 --> 00:02:18,225 concept of alignment for. 76 00:02:18,690 --> 00:02:20,340 Decades because Yeah. 77 00:02:20,340 --> 00:02:22,260 I wanted to believe, and I think a lot of other people 78 00:02:22,260 --> 00:02:26,399 do too, I, I wanted to believe optimistically that I could 79 00:02:26,399 --> 00:02:29,700 have this like symbiotic perfect alignment with all the 80 00:02:29,700 --> 00:02:31,625 people in my life and Sure. 81 00:02:31,625 --> 00:02:34,049 And if that, and if that alignment didn't exist, 82 00:02:34,049 --> 00:02:37,079 it was just some sort of like Lego piece I was 83 00:02:37,079 --> 00:02:38,010 missing to complete the. 84 00:02:38,350 --> 00:02:38,799 Right. 85 00:02:38,859 --> 00:02:42,100 It never occurred to me it does now that the alignment 86 00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:45,400 was so far off to begin with, that crossing that, that, 87 00:02:45,430 --> 00:02:48,400 that chasm, it was way harder than I thought it would be. 88 00:02:48,549 --> 00:02:52,480 And, and again, I think today as we unpack why those chasms are 89 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,750 so significant, even in stuff like co-founders we're supposed 90 00:02:55,750 --> 00:02:56,709 to be in the same place. 91 00:02:56,859 --> 00:02:57,400 I think it's a big deal. 92 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:57,670 Yeah. 93 00:02:57,674 --> 00:02:57,795 Yeah. 94 00:02:57,799 --> 00:02:58,060 Yeah. 95 00:02:58,060 --> 00:02:58,510 It is. 96 00:02:58,515 --> 00:03:01,150 And, and I think it's another one of these things I, I, I seem 97 00:03:01,150 --> 00:03:04,209 to keep echoing this, but it's one of those things that starts 98 00:03:04,209 --> 00:03:05,260 at that really early stage. 99 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,940 Then we carry it forward in a lot of cases unnecessarily. 100 00:03:09,510 --> 00:03:12,029 I realized at some point that one of the reasons I was 101 00:03:12,029 --> 00:03:14,489 looking for that alignment, the reason I wanted it so 102 00:03:14,489 --> 00:03:17,489 desperately to be aligned was that at the early stage of a 103 00:03:17,489 --> 00:03:18,720 startup, very little is working. 104 00:03:18,725 --> 00:03:18,984 Right? 105 00:03:18,989 --> 00:03:19,290 Right. 106 00:03:19,290 --> 00:03:21,690 And so it was almost as if, as long as everybody else 107 00:03:21,690 --> 00:03:23,670 was aligned with me, like as long as everybody else sort 108 00:03:23,670 --> 00:03:25,619 of like felt like what I was doing was the right thing. 109 00:03:25,619 --> 00:03:28,649 Like it was some form of another, like a validation 110 00:03:28,649 --> 00:03:30,000 or maybe it was just even as simple as like. 111 00:03:30,795 --> 00:03:32,625 If everybody else could have the rose colored glasses 112 00:03:32,625 --> 00:03:34,845 on, I could keep swimming through the Meyer, right? 113 00:03:34,845 --> 00:03:39,345 Just like somehow I needed that alignment psychologically 114 00:03:39,795 --> 00:03:43,695 less actually, like from a, from a practical standpoint, 115 00:03:43,695 --> 00:03:45,255 I didn't actually need them to do anything, right? 116 00:03:45,255 --> 00:03:47,475 Like, I don't need my spouse to be aligned with me so that 117 00:03:47,685 --> 00:03:50,325 I can go do the thing I have to do, or that she can do the 118 00:03:50,325 --> 00:03:50,900 things that she needs to do. 119 00:03:51,555 --> 00:03:54,045 I just wanted it to be, I wanted it to be so that I 120 00:03:54,045 --> 00:03:56,175 could feel good about going and doing what I had to do. 121 00:03:56,175 --> 00:03:58,095 It wasn't fundamentally gonna stop me from doing it. 122 00:03:58,515 --> 00:03:59,925 Yet it can, it 123 00:03:59,925 --> 00:04:01,335 also feels a lot different when it's, when it's 124 00:04:01,335 --> 00:04:02,265 not aligned, right? 125 00:04:02,265 --> 00:04:04,815 There's one thing why I don't need all of your support, but 126 00:04:04,815 --> 00:04:07,005 getting negative support where you're actually tearing me 127 00:04:07,005 --> 00:04:08,955 down is definitely a problem. 128 00:04:09,405 --> 00:04:11,535 You know, Ryan, I'm, I'm gonna rewind back 129 00:04:11,745 --> 00:04:15,525 circa 20 12, 20 13, some, somewhere in that era, okay? 130 00:04:15,795 --> 00:04:15,885 Mm-hmm. 131 00:04:15,885 --> 00:04:16,035 Yeah. 132 00:04:16,095 --> 00:04:17,295 Um, deep in the archives. 133 00:04:17,475 --> 00:04:20,445 Deep in the archives, and you and I are just starting to 134 00:04:20,445 --> 00:04:23,535 hire this new entrant to the workforce called millennials. 135 00:04:23,565 --> 00:04:23,595 Okay. 136 00:04:23,595 --> 00:04:23,655 Yeah. 137 00:04:24,555 --> 00:04:24,615 Yeah. 138 00:04:24,765 --> 00:04:28,365 Now, now, and again, I hate when people do this like, like 139 00:04:28,545 --> 00:04:32,025 generational class warfare, et cetera, but, and I know 140 00:04:32,025 --> 00:04:34,155 a lot of our audience are, you know, are millennials. 141 00:04:34,155 --> 00:04:36,135 So, so bear with me when I say this, right? 142 00:04:36,375 --> 00:04:39,135 Ryan and I are, are, are in the, the Gen X category. 143 00:04:39,165 --> 00:04:39,975 None of this matters. 144 00:04:40,185 --> 00:04:42,855 I'm just pointing out, this was our first time, 145 00:04:42,855 --> 00:04:43,875 like in our thirties. 146 00:04:44,445 --> 00:04:44,565 Yeah. 147 00:04:44,565 --> 00:04:46,365 Hiring a generation that wasn't us. 148 00:04:46,664 --> 00:04:47,055 Right. 149 00:04:47,055 --> 00:04:47,955 They were just entering. 150 00:04:47,955 --> 00:04:48,135 Right. 151 00:04:48,135 --> 00:04:50,955 There was finally, they were, they were now of legal age 152 00:04:50,955 --> 00:04:52,335 to hire, and so Exactly. 153 00:04:52,335 --> 00:04:53,174 We started doing so. 154 00:04:53,294 --> 00:04:53,565 Right. 155 00:04:53,565 --> 00:04:53,865 Yeah. 156 00:04:54,104 --> 00:04:57,525 And so this was the first time in my generation, right. 157 00:04:57,525 --> 00:04:59,325 And I remember having these conversations with you. 158 00:04:59,865 --> 00:05:02,835 Where a new generation comes to work and they brought this 159 00:05:02,835 --> 00:05:06,344 new concept that we had never heard of before called work-life 160 00:05:06,344 --> 00:05:10,005 balance and, and, and what work-life balance means is 161 00:05:10,005 --> 00:05:11,115 I don't wanna work as much. 162 00:05:11,355 --> 00:05:14,145 I've never heard someone introduce work-life balance. 163 00:05:14,265 --> 00:05:16,155 That also includes, because I wanna work more. 164 00:05:16,484 --> 00:05:16,755 Right. 165 00:05:17,025 --> 00:05:19,484 Can you lighten my life a little so I can put more weight 166 00:05:19,484 --> 00:05:20,715 on the work side, please? 167 00:05:20,984 --> 00:05:22,005 Exactly right. 168 00:05:22,185 --> 00:05:24,104 So anyway, that's here nor there. 169 00:05:24,494 --> 00:05:26,924 Point is we start hiring a, a bunch of millennials. 170 00:05:26,924 --> 00:05:29,265 And by millennials I just mean like 22 year olds at the time. 171 00:05:29,354 --> 00:05:29,625 Okay. 172 00:05:29,655 --> 00:05:29,895 Yep. 173 00:05:29,984 --> 00:05:31,155 At the time, that was it at the time. 174 00:05:31,335 --> 00:05:35,354 Uh, they're in forties now, but at the time they'd come 175 00:05:35,354 --> 00:05:36,434 to work, they were fine. 176 00:05:36,465 --> 00:05:36,645 Right? 177 00:05:36,645 --> 00:05:38,835 All, all good, all green light signals, but the 178 00:05:38,835 --> 00:05:40,065 craziest thing happened. 179 00:05:40,455 --> 00:05:43,665 At six o'clock, which we, sorry, we worked at, uh, 180 00:05:43,725 --> 00:05:45,525 nine to six at six o'clock. 181 00:05:45,885 --> 00:05:48,970 Everyone would pack their laptops in just all at once. 182 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:51,130 Just like, yeah, lemons. 183 00:05:51,130 --> 00:05:54,015 And you could separate without having to say a word, who is 184 00:05:54,015 --> 00:05:56,205 Gen X and who is millennial. 185 00:05:56,385 --> 00:05:56,625 Right? 186 00:05:56,625 --> 00:05:58,365 Because the millennials, like you were still sitting, you 187 00:05:58,365 --> 00:05:58,995 were Gen X 188 00:05:58,995 --> 00:05:59,265 if you 189 00:05:59,265 --> 00:05:59,325 were 190 00:06:01,275 --> 00:06:01,635 Exactly. 191 00:06:01,695 --> 00:06:02,925 No one said a word, right? 192 00:06:02,925 --> 00:06:04,365 Like no one had to say a thing. 193 00:06:04,755 --> 00:06:08,445 No, but the, the reason I bring this up is it was the first time 194 00:06:08,775 --> 00:06:10,455 that I had ever seen such a. 195 00:06:11,039 --> 00:06:17,520 Dramatic distinction between my vision of alignment and 196 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:18,780 their vision of alignment. 197 00:06:18,900 --> 00:06:19,229 Okay. 198 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:19,560 Yeah. 199 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,140 And so I leaned in naturally and I asked some folks, 200 00:06:22,140 --> 00:06:24,510 I was like, so, you know, you're leaving at six. 201 00:06:24,510 --> 00:06:25,320 It was like a half day. 202 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:26,219 I mean, I'm, I'm kidding. 203 00:06:26,219 --> 00:06:28,979 But like, you know, that's, that's kinda like, uh, and 204 00:06:28,979 --> 00:06:31,620 they were like, yeah, that's 'cause I'm an employee. 205 00:06:31,679 --> 00:06:32,789 You know, I, I'm not the owner. 206 00:06:33,150 --> 00:06:35,460 They said this in so many words, but it was the first 207 00:06:35,460 --> 00:06:37,380 time they'd ever heard someone verbalize that. 208 00:06:37,859 --> 00:06:39,240 Now I was like, huh. 209 00:06:40,125 --> 00:06:40,995 You're not wrong. 210 00:06:41,565 --> 00:06:41,835 Yeah. 211 00:06:41,835 --> 00:06:43,065 You, you've got a point. 212 00:06:43,155 --> 00:06:44,895 I don't like that it's pointed at me, but you've 213 00:06:44,895 --> 00:06:45,915 got a point, right? 214 00:06:46,185 --> 00:06:48,615 Like, I, I don't get to leave the movie halfway. 215 00:06:48,719 --> 00:06:51,495 I, I have to stick until the, the credits roll, right? 216 00:06:51,495 --> 00:06:52,725 Like, why do you get to leave? 217 00:06:52,965 --> 00:06:55,155 It didn't occur to me that our incentives 218 00:06:55,155 --> 00:06:55,665 were different. 219 00:06:56,175 --> 00:06:58,755 Like up until that point, I had never had to 220 00:06:58,755 --> 00:06:59,745 have that conversation. 221 00:06:59,745 --> 00:07:02,025 And what I'm saying is just, and there's nothing 222 00:07:02,025 --> 00:07:03,195 wrong with what they did. 223 00:07:03,195 --> 00:07:05,745 My point is that they did it right and it, it 224 00:07:05,745 --> 00:07:08,390 forced me to realize that we're not in alignment. 225 00:07:09,645 --> 00:07:11,474 Prior to that, I'm not even kidding. 226 00:07:11,474 --> 00:07:15,075 For like, like 15 years, I would work until midnight 227 00:07:15,284 --> 00:07:16,695 with my entire team. 228 00:07:17,205 --> 00:07:19,635 And now mind you, we're all younger, but so were they right? 229 00:07:19,635 --> 00:07:21,585 Like, and no one would think twice about it. 230 00:07:21,585 --> 00:07:25,215 There's a guy at a Santa Monica named Jason Nazar. 231 00:07:25,260 --> 00:07:25,320 Yeah. 232 00:07:25,740 --> 00:07:29,159 Um, Jason started doc stock.com and then, damn, I just blanked 233 00:07:29,159 --> 00:07:30,330 into the second company started. 234 00:07:30,330 --> 00:07:31,080 I think he sold 'em both. 235 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,740 And uh, I remember one time I was in Santa Monica, 236 00:07:34,740 --> 00:07:36,719 that's when I was living there and uh, Jason's like, 237 00:07:36,719 --> 00:07:37,650 Hey, let's grab some dinner. 238 00:07:37,980 --> 00:07:39,630 We got to dinner, it's like nine o'clock, a little bit 239 00:07:39,630 --> 00:07:42,840 late for a dinner, and after dinner he's like, uh, uh, I 240 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:43,710 gotta head back to the office. 241 00:07:43,740 --> 00:07:44,880 I'm like, oh, did you leave something? 242 00:07:45,060 --> 00:07:46,710 He's like, no, we're still working. 243 00:07:47,335 --> 00:07:49,315 Story just, just because I had to see this and we were 244 00:07:49,315 --> 00:07:50,785 walking past his office Anyway, I go, I wanna go 245 00:07:50,785 --> 00:07:51,565 see what this looks like. 246 00:07:51,625 --> 00:07:51,925 Right? 247 00:07:51,925 --> 00:07:56,575 I go in, Ryan, his entire team was there, like, no different 248 00:07:56,605 --> 00:07:58,735 than when I'd stopped by at like three in the afternoon. 249 00:07:59,000 --> 00:07:59,350 Right? 250 00:07:59,355 --> 00:07:59,695 Right. 251 00:08:00,295 --> 00:08:01,585 And I'm not saying this is healthier. 252 00:08:01,585 --> 00:08:02,005 Good. 253 00:08:02,130 --> 00:08:02,680 No, no, no. 254 00:08:02,845 --> 00:08:06,025 I'm saying somehow he had aligned his interests and, 255 00:08:06,025 --> 00:08:08,455 and like his interest of being a founder with their 256 00:08:08,455 --> 00:08:10,585 interests of, of wanting or maybe having to be there. 257 00:08:10,585 --> 00:08:10,735 Yeah. 258 00:08:11,185 --> 00:08:12,925 But now I can't even fathom that. 259 00:08:13,405 --> 00:08:15,830 Like, I don't even pretend like those interests are aligned. 260 00:08:16,470 --> 00:08:18,690 No, I, and I think that was part of the challenge, right? 261 00:08:18,690 --> 00:08:22,470 Is that early on, right, I used to expect my staff to have to 262 00:08:22,470 --> 00:08:25,290 be as, all in as me and, and anyone around me, and it was 263 00:08:25,290 --> 00:08:26,250 participating anything with me. 264 00:08:26,250 --> 00:08:28,590 I always expected everybody else to be as in as me. 265 00:08:28,620 --> 00:08:31,230 I told the story once about getting dressed down by my 266 00:08:31,230 --> 00:08:34,620 coach after, after trying to push the team too hard and, 267 00:08:34,620 --> 00:08:36,780 and basically having me explain exactly this to me is like. 268 00:08:37,340 --> 00:08:38,810 The consequences aren't the same for everybody. 269 00:08:38,810 --> 00:08:41,540 Not everybody wants the same things out of this that you do. 270 00:08:41,750 --> 00:08:43,430 Not everyone's gonna get the same things out 271 00:08:43,430 --> 00:08:44,240 of this that you do. 272 00:08:44,390 --> 00:08:46,370 Therefore you can't expect 'em to put the same things 273 00:08:46,370 --> 00:08:47,960 into this as you do, right? 274 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,920 So me expecting everyone to be as all in as I was, wasn't fair, 275 00:08:52,070 --> 00:08:54,410 wasn't fair for the, the, the team wasn't fair for my staff. 276 00:08:54,410 --> 00:08:54,740 Later. 277 00:08:55,130 --> 00:08:56,450 They didn't sign up for what? 278 00:08:56,450 --> 00:08:58,520 I'm just gonna say my level of consequence. 279 00:08:58,905 --> 00:08:59,205 Correct. 280 00:08:59,415 --> 00:08:59,795 Right, right. 281 00:08:59,895 --> 00:09:01,035 In either direction. 282 00:09:01,155 --> 00:09:01,455 Right. 283 00:09:01,455 --> 00:09:03,825 If it goes really well, it will go better for me. 284 00:09:04,005 --> 00:09:05,775 If it goes really poorly, it will go a 285 00:09:05,775 --> 00:09:07,275 lot more poorly for me. 286 00:09:07,335 --> 00:09:07,575 Right. 287 00:09:07,575 --> 00:09:08,145 The the way. 288 00:09:08,145 --> 00:09:08,205 Yeah. 289 00:09:08,205 --> 00:09:10,245 It'll, we are, it's, it's funny, you can kind of think 290 00:09:10,245 --> 00:09:11,115 of, it's like a pendulum. 291 00:09:11,415 --> 00:09:14,205 We are way out at the very far reaches the pendulum. 292 00:09:14,205 --> 00:09:16,485 So when it swings, we swing all the way. 293 00:09:16,485 --> 00:09:18,045 There's somewhere down near the bottom. 294 00:09:18,045 --> 00:09:21,135 So yeah, it goes back and forth, but it's like being on deck 295 00:09:21,135 --> 00:09:22,305 versus being in the crow's nest. 296 00:09:22,335 --> 00:09:23,565 We're in the crow's nest, right. 297 00:09:23,565 --> 00:09:26,235 So when the ship tilts, we go all the way. 298 00:09:26,385 --> 00:09:27,165 And I think that. 299 00:09:27,585 --> 00:09:31,905 Once you realize that and you stop expecting that alignment, 300 00:09:32,115 --> 00:09:33,405 it, it got a little easier. 301 00:09:33,405 --> 00:09:35,025 I'm, I'm not gonna say it got easy, it was still 302 00:09:35,025 --> 00:09:37,365 hugely frustrating for me, but it got easier. 303 00:09:37,545 --> 00:09:37,725 Yeah. 304 00:09:37,755 --> 00:09:39,225 Okay, so, so stick with that then. 305 00:09:39,435 --> 00:09:43,035 So I think my challenge, and I think a lot of others is, Hey, 306 00:09:43,035 --> 00:09:44,025 we're all in this together. 307 00:09:44,025 --> 00:09:45,465 We're all gonna build something great. 308 00:09:45,735 --> 00:09:47,385 And it's like, yeah, sort of. 309 00:09:47,745 --> 00:09:50,055 Actually, I'll give you another interesting point 310 00:09:50,055 --> 00:09:51,345 about this concept of. 311 00:09:51,704 --> 00:09:52,935 Ownership, if you will. 312 00:09:52,995 --> 00:09:54,495 And I don't, I'm not talking about equity, I just mean 313 00:09:54,495 --> 00:09:57,285 like ownership of the, of what you're building. 314 00:09:57,525 --> 00:09:57,765 Okay. 315 00:09:57,765 --> 00:10:00,255 Like, just like genuine passion for what it is. 316 00:10:00,555 --> 00:10:02,655 This concept of not my baby. 317 00:10:02,685 --> 00:10:06,255 And, and by the way, not my baby does not mean that I wasn't 318 00:10:06,255 --> 00:10:07,305 the person that started it. 319 00:10:07,605 --> 00:10:10,365 But what I'm saying is there are folks and like you and 320 00:10:10,370 --> 00:10:12,795 g and you know, folks like that, that have full ownership 321 00:10:12,795 --> 00:10:14,204 of what's here, right? 322 00:10:14,204 --> 00:10:14,265 Yeah. 323 00:10:14,265 --> 00:10:17,115 Like even there from the start, you, you've built this thing, 324 00:10:17,115 --> 00:10:20,745 this thing is a part of your DNA, but it stops there too. 325 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,950 The, the other people that are in after, after, 326 00:10:22,950 --> 00:10:24,300 after, don't have that. 327 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:26,130 Like, don't have it like it's my baby two kind of DNA. 328 00:10:26,220 --> 00:10:26,460 Yep. 329 00:10:27,030 --> 00:10:29,220 And for a long time I just assumed if you were on 330 00:10:29,220 --> 00:10:31,200 payroll, you had that DNA. 331 00:10:31,650 --> 00:10:32,010 Right. 332 00:10:32,130 --> 00:10:33,390 No, it's, it's not it. 333 00:10:33,390 --> 00:10:35,940 And you know, it's interesting because I think 334 00:10:35,940 --> 00:10:37,935 that, you know, some of it is that that ownership. 335 00:10:38,940 --> 00:10:41,100 There's a particular type of ownership that I'm gonna, I'm 336 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:43,920 gonna call out here because I, I think that commitment gap 337 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,320 isn't necessarily about loyalty. 338 00:10:46,590 --> 00:10:46,920 Right. 339 00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:47,310 Right. 340 00:10:47,310 --> 00:10:47,940 Yeah, I agree with that. 341 00:10:47,940 --> 00:10:48,210 Totally. 342 00:10:48,215 --> 00:10:50,460 It's, it's, it's the, the ownership is, is about the risk. 343 00:10:50,460 --> 00:10:52,320 It's about who owns the risk in a lot of cases. 344 00:10:52,350 --> 00:10:52,560 Yep. 345 00:10:52,590 --> 00:10:52,830 Right. 346 00:10:52,830 --> 00:10:55,650 Who actually owns the downside of this thing, 347 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:58,950 because that is going to really and truly determine. 348 00:10:59,339 --> 00:11:01,620 How committed someone is. 349 00:11:01,829 --> 00:11:03,569 Now, I, I think you're talking about a different type of 350 00:11:03,569 --> 00:11:06,120 ownership, which is also extremely valid, which is 351 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,610 just having been and built and, and, and been part of it. 352 00:11:08,610 --> 00:11:10,680 And literally it's part of your DNA, you're 353 00:11:10,680 --> 00:11:11,790 part of its DNA, right? 354 00:11:11,790 --> 00:11:14,130 Like you pull this out and like that's a, that's now it's 355 00:11:14,130 --> 00:11:15,150 no longer the same company. 356 00:11:15,390 --> 00:11:17,550 That's a different aspect, but equally as important. 357 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,400 Well, my frustrations have been, have been going in 358 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,400 these conversations with an expectation that they, they saw 359 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,010 things the way I did, and again, the consequence was a big one. 360 00:11:26,219 --> 00:11:26,370 Yeah. 361 00:11:26,370 --> 00:11:27,329 I'll give you an example, like. 362 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,430 10 years ago, I remember you, me and a couple other, other 363 00:11:30,430 --> 00:11:32,800 leadership were on a, a chat. 364 00:11:33,070 --> 00:11:34,270 This was on a Saturday. 365 00:11:34,270 --> 00:11:34,300 Okay. 366 00:11:34,870 --> 00:11:37,030 And something was going wrong with something maybe 367 00:11:37,030 --> 00:11:39,550 like our, our ads weren't firing or something, like 368 00:11:39,550 --> 00:11:40,235 there was some like issue. 369 00:11:41,145 --> 00:11:43,935 I remember like, like chatting with, with all of you 370 00:11:43,995 --> 00:11:45,795 particularly, you know, one of the folks in in the group 371 00:11:46,065 --> 00:11:48,225 was like, Hey guys, honestly, this is like a weekend. 372 00:11:48,285 --> 00:11:49,875 You know, I wanna be off on the weekends. 373 00:11:49,935 --> 00:11:53,385 I don't wanna, um, do that in my response in so many 374 00:11:53,385 --> 00:11:54,405 words, but not these words. 375 00:11:54,405 --> 00:11:56,535 I'm just trying to like paraphrase was, if 376 00:11:56,535 --> 00:11:58,425 that's your response, you shouldn't be on this chat. 377 00:11:59,324 --> 00:12:00,855 Meaning like you shouldn't be in leadership. 378 00:12:01,005 --> 00:12:03,670 The point of leadership is that you do have to take these calls. 379 00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:04,094 You are tied to these 380 00:12:04,094 --> 00:12:04,694 consequences. 381 00:12:04,785 --> 00:12:04,935 Yeah. 382 00:12:04,935 --> 00:12:05,444 Right, right. 383 00:12:05,594 --> 00:12:06,550 You don't, you don't get to call off. 384 00:12:06,550 --> 00:12:07,094 We lose level of shit. 385 00:12:07,094 --> 00:12:08,895 Like it wasn't, it wasn't like we were like, Hey 386 00:12:08,895 --> 00:12:10,305 guys, what do you think? 387 00:12:10,305 --> 00:12:13,694 Should we plan the Christmas party for the 15th or the 18th? 388 00:12:13,995 --> 00:12:16,155 It's like, Hey, there's a fundamental challenge like 389 00:12:16,155 --> 00:12:17,295 we're taking on water. 390 00:12:17,415 --> 00:12:18,105 Yeah, exactly. 391 00:12:18,105 --> 00:12:19,005 You up, we're picking on water. 392 00:12:19,334 --> 00:12:19,574 Yeah. 393 00:12:19,574 --> 00:12:22,035 And so, but again, it's back to that reframing. 394 00:12:22,245 --> 00:12:24,645 So now what I've come to, to realize, and again, 395 00:12:24,645 --> 00:12:26,175 this will start to, you'll start to see this. 396 00:12:26,505 --> 00:12:28,005 Theme permeate through everything we're 397 00:12:28,005 --> 00:12:28,545 about to talk about. 398 00:12:28,875 --> 00:12:33,314 What I've started to realize is I have to be super honest about 399 00:12:33,464 --> 00:12:34,694 what those differences are. 400 00:12:35,055 --> 00:12:38,055 If we can't make payroll, they will lose their job. 401 00:12:38,055 --> 00:12:40,755 And there is nothing, there's nothing inconsequential about 402 00:12:40,755 --> 00:12:41,655 that, that's meaningful, right. 403 00:12:41,655 --> 00:12:42,765 That's, those are people's lives. 404 00:12:42,915 --> 00:12:46,005 But if I can't, uh, make payroll, I lose everything. 405 00:12:46,380 --> 00:12:48,405 I, everything, I lose everybody's jobs, right? 406 00:12:48,405 --> 00:12:48,464 Yeah. 407 00:12:48,464 --> 00:12:49,454 I lose my own job. 408 00:12:49,454 --> 00:12:51,765 I put myself into personal risk, like, you know, I 409 00:12:51,765 --> 00:12:53,385 can't just quit and restart. 410 00:12:53,685 --> 00:12:53,935 To your point. 411 00:12:54,555 --> 00:12:56,295 Everyone else has some version of a life raft. 412 00:12:56,325 --> 00:12:58,095 I'm going down with this thing to the bottom of the ocean. 413 00:12:58,095 --> 00:12:58,245 Yep. 414 00:12:58,545 --> 00:13:01,185 So yes, I'm freaking out about it on a Saturday. 415 00:13:01,335 --> 00:13:04,095 There's a reason someone else isn't and I need to check myself 416 00:13:04,095 --> 00:13:05,175 before I have that reaction 417 00:13:05,385 --> 00:13:05,835 for sure. 418 00:13:05,955 --> 00:13:09,135 And I, I think like as, as time goes on, one of the things that 419 00:13:09,135 --> 00:13:11,475 I've realized, particularly within the, the employee sec, 420 00:13:11,565 --> 00:13:13,785 I don't need everyone to. 421 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:14,480 Agree. 422 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,430 I don't need everyone to have the same level of 423 00:13:16,430 --> 00:13:17,600 commitment or consequence. 424 00:13:17,810 --> 00:13:18,800 It's about them showing up. 425 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:18,920 Right. 426 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:19,700 It's not about everyone agreeing. 427 00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:19,760 Yeah. 428 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,050 It's about everybody still showing up. 429 00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:21,170 Right. 430 00:13:21,170 --> 00:13:23,240 It's about being there, doing the thing that I need, and 431 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,280 me being very clear on kind of what I need and letting 432 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:26,990 them be very clear on, on what I need from them. 433 00:13:26,990 --> 00:13:27,290 Sure. 434 00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:30,320 But, but it is still frustrating and you know, it's funny, I 435 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,330 do believe that part of this comes from a really good 436 00:13:32,330 --> 00:13:33,950 place, which is do you just. 437 00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:37,530 We're seeking out that, so like the, this desire for 438 00:13:37,530 --> 00:13:39,810 alignment, particularly amongst the team, forget the, the 439 00:13:39,810 --> 00:13:42,630 spouses for a minute, forget the, the, the people who aren't 440 00:13:42,630 --> 00:13:45,420 directly, directly, like in this, like literally turning 441 00:13:45,420 --> 00:13:47,010 the screws in the bolts and building a machine with us. 442 00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:50,730 I think part of that is this sort of like desire 443 00:13:50,730 --> 00:13:54,390 for camaraderie, this desire to feel like. 444 00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:58,050 Everyone cares enough to, to really wanna do this 445 00:13:58,050 --> 00:13:58,800 for all the right reasons. 446 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,120 So again, I think, I think part of this does 447 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:00,780 come from a good place. 448 00:14:00,780 --> 00:14:03,000 This isn't me saying like, I need everyone aligned so that 449 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,700 we can get things done and grow faster and make more money. 450 00:14:06,030 --> 00:14:08,460 It, yes, that is one of the byproducts, but I think for me 451 00:14:08,460 --> 00:14:11,625 it was just always about like, it always felt good, right? 452 00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:11,880 Right. 453 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,950 It was like you ever pull like a study all night? 454 00:14:14,715 --> 00:14:16,665 Where it was like, let's, let's ace this exam. 455 00:14:16,665 --> 00:14:18,555 Okay, well that was the thing that used to happen. 456 00:14:18,855 --> 00:14:21,705 Or just, you know, let's, let's stay up until this thing ships. 457 00:14:21,705 --> 00:14:25,035 But like at that level where it wasn't out of some sense 458 00:14:25,035 --> 00:14:29,295 of obligation, it was a sense of desire and pride that 459 00:14:29,295 --> 00:14:31,065 happened at an individual level. 460 00:14:31,575 --> 00:14:33,525 They culminated in a group of people doing something 461 00:14:33,525 --> 00:14:34,425 pretty awesome together. 462 00:14:34,425 --> 00:14:36,705 And I think that like part of me will always want 463 00:14:36,705 --> 00:14:37,860 to recreate that, right? 464 00:14:37,865 --> 00:14:38,025 Right. 465 00:14:38,025 --> 00:14:40,365 Part of me will always wanna say like, let's do stay at the 466 00:14:40,365 --> 00:14:42,285 office till midnight, and then I'll look at labor laws and 467 00:14:42,285 --> 00:14:43,185 go, yeah, let's, maybe not. 468 00:14:43,365 --> 00:14:43,515 Yeah. 469 00:14:43,620 --> 00:14:45,765 Um, but okay, 470 00:14:45,765 --> 00:14:47,445 so let's take that off the table though. 471 00:14:47,595 --> 00:14:49,935 Let's move up the chain to a co-founder. 472 00:14:50,235 --> 00:14:50,655 Okay. 473 00:14:50,715 --> 00:14:53,685 And here's someone, let's say you have 50 50 stock. 474 00:14:53,685 --> 00:14:55,755 Like, you know, we're, we're taking off the, Hey, you have 475 00:14:55,755 --> 00:14:56,685 more than I do, kind of thing. 476 00:14:57,015 --> 00:14:58,965 And so at that point you're like, well, well then 477 00:14:58,965 --> 00:14:59,865 we're definitely aligned. 478 00:15:00,750 --> 00:15:00,870 Yeah. 479 00:15:00,870 --> 00:15:03,090 Uh, because we have the same amount of stock upside, 480 00:15:03,090 --> 00:15:03,990 downside is the same. 481 00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:06,420 Let's assume every dollar in dollar out is the same. 482 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,120 And I'm like, yeah, no you don't. 483 00:15:09,210 --> 00:15:12,150 On paper, those should align, but that's actually 484 00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:14,640 not what creates co-founder disputes more often. 485 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:16,290 It's an expectation. 486 00:15:16,705 --> 00:15:16,855 It's 487 00:15:16,855 --> 00:15:18,805 being in the same boat and looking at different maps. 488 00:15:18,895 --> 00:15:19,105 Yep. 489 00:15:19,315 --> 00:15:19,555 Right. 490 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,805 It's, it's, look at it that's like, it's, it's 491 00:15:21,805 --> 00:15:22,915 super frustrating, right? 492 00:15:22,915 --> 00:15:23,290 Yeah, yeah. 493 00:15:23,295 --> 00:15:25,405 And for both sides, clearly. 494 00:15:25,495 --> 00:15:25,825 Right. 495 00:15:26,155 --> 00:15:27,655 Except when just wouldn't you, like you and I we're 496 00:15:27,655 --> 00:15:29,035 always the, the ones that are right about it. 497 00:15:29,035 --> 00:15:31,615 And so then like, it's, it's more frustrating for us because 498 00:15:31,615 --> 00:15:32,905 it was their misalignment. 499 00:15:34,675 --> 00:15:36,355 I was like, okay, so here's what I would say. 500 00:15:36,445 --> 00:15:37,705 The thing that I've seen. 501 00:15:38,115 --> 00:15:41,385 The most is an expectation of contribution. 502 00:15:41,594 --> 00:15:43,755 Ryan, you and I, you and I are 50 50 co-founders on 503 00:15:43,755 --> 00:15:47,385 something, and we both have an expectation about how 504 00:15:47,385 --> 00:15:48,765 contribution's going to work. 505 00:15:49,214 --> 00:15:53,055 And here's a couple places that backfires and, and using you and 506 00:15:53,055 --> 00:15:55,605 I as a metaphor for like every co-founder, the first place 507 00:15:55,605 --> 00:15:57,390 that backfires is number one. 508 00:15:57,390 --> 00:15:59,355 Everyone thinks they work harder than they do. 509 00:15:59,490 --> 00:16:00,885 We, we did a whole episode about this. 510 00:16:01,470 --> 00:16:03,329 You know, talking about like people's perception 511 00:16:03,329 --> 00:16:04,110 of how hard they work. 512 00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:07,020 So like I come home to my spouse, I'm like, oh 513 00:16:07,020 --> 00:16:08,280 my God, what a long day. 514 00:16:08,490 --> 00:16:11,400 And my spouse just assumes that must mean that I've 515 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:12,720 done all this effort. 516 00:16:12,930 --> 00:16:13,170 Right? 517 00:16:13,170 --> 00:16:13,410 Right. 518 00:16:13,410 --> 00:16:15,090 But I could have worked for two freaking hours, 519 00:16:15,270 --> 00:16:17,250 but I could, I could have professionally complained 520 00:16:17,250 --> 00:16:18,090 about it when I could home. 521 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:18,390 Right? 522 00:16:18,689 --> 00:16:21,750 Or in my mind, I quote, work really hard. 523 00:16:22,265 --> 00:16:24,335 I mean, Ryan, you and I have both dealt with this. 524 00:16:24,335 --> 00:16:26,045 In fact, I think we've done podcasts about this. 525 00:16:26,225 --> 00:16:28,565 I've had days where I've felt like I've just gone 526 00:16:28,565 --> 00:16:31,325 through a slog all day and have nothing to show for it. 527 00:16:31,505 --> 00:16:32,375 Nothing to show for it. 528 00:16:32,495 --> 00:16:32,585 Yeah. 529 00:16:32,585 --> 00:16:32,765 Some 530 00:16:32,765 --> 00:16:34,295 people, that's their career, right? 531 00:16:34,715 --> 00:16:34,895 They're 532 00:16:34,895 --> 00:16:38,945 busy, being busy, and in their mind, yeah, like, 533 00:16:38,945 --> 00:16:41,580 I worked hard, but you didn't get anything done. 534 00:16:42,705 --> 00:16:45,195 Like, yes, you spent time in a place 535 00:16:45,195 --> 00:16:46,365 that doesn't mean you had output. 536 00:16:46,515 --> 00:16:48,675 It's gotta come down to, to transformation, right? 537 00:16:48,675 --> 00:16:50,655 Something has to have changed based on what 538 00:16:50,655 --> 00:16:52,815 you did and hopefully positive transformation, 539 00:16:52,815 --> 00:16:54,045 not just something changed. 540 00:16:54,225 --> 00:16:56,205 Ryan, you ever play a soccer game where you worked 541 00:16:56,205 --> 00:16:56,985 really hard but you didn't 542 00:16:56,985 --> 00:16:57,230 score any points? 543 00:16:58,485 --> 00:16:59,324 Yeah, most of them. 544 00:17:01,395 --> 00:17:02,745 And I'm not the goalie, right? 545 00:17:02,750 --> 00:17:03,465 Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say. 546 00:17:04,484 --> 00:17:05,595 But, but you know, same thing. 547 00:17:05,595 --> 00:17:08,535 And so my point is, that's usually where it starts, 548 00:17:08,535 --> 00:17:11,204 this, this misalignment, is that our expectations 549 00:17:11,204 --> 00:17:14,535 about our output and someone else's output don't align. 550 00:17:14,535 --> 00:17:16,785 So it's like, I'm doing everything right and they're 551 00:17:16,875 --> 00:17:17,744 fucking everything up. 552 00:17:17,744 --> 00:17:18,135 Okay. 553 00:17:18,135 --> 00:17:20,385 So, so that's one part, but another part, I'm just gonna 554 00:17:20,385 --> 00:17:22,065 give you the two categories and let's kind of, you know, 555 00:17:22,065 --> 00:17:22,845 build into a little bit. 556 00:17:23,025 --> 00:17:25,905 But the other part is, uh, an expectation on how this 557 00:17:25,905 --> 00:17:27,045 company should be run. 558 00:17:27,550 --> 00:17:28,960 That has so many tentacles. 559 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,690 That's everything does from how our culture should be to whether 560 00:17:31,690 --> 00:17:34,840 we take on money to whether do we pull out cash now or do we 561 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,139 reinvest it for the future or to what our product's going to be. 562 00:17:38,139 --> 00:17:38,889 You know, you name it. 563 00:17:38,950 --> 00:17:39,280 Right? 564 00:17:39,550 --> 00:17:42,550 And those expectations can become so dissimilar. 565 00:17:42,945 --> 00:17:46,035 Our alignment is damn near impossible. 566 00:17:46,065 --> 00:17:48,015 Even though on paper we should be on the same side 567 00:17:48,015 --> 00:17:48,375 of the table. 568 00:17:48,525 --> 00:17:51,045 I think that's the, the bigger one for me, because I really 569 00:17:51,045 --> 00:17:53,775 do feel like when, when the friction isn't about effort, 570 00:17:53,835 --> 00:17:56,565 meaning like what are, what are our actual daily contributions? 571 00:17:56,565 --> 00:17:58,395 Because to your point, everybody's gonna have a 572 00:17:58,395 --> 00:17:59,355 different view on that anyways. 573 00:17:59,355 --> 00:17:59,505 Right? 574 00:17:59,505 --> 00:18:01,995 Like the way I feel about what I did today may 575 00:18:01,995 --> 00:18:02,925 or may not be accurate. 576 00:18:03,315 --> 00:18:06,135 So the way you feel about what I do today, probably 577 00:18:06,135 --> 00:18:07,515 even less accurate, right? 578 00:18:07,815 --> 00:18:08,325 Third party. 579 00:18:08,595 --> 00:18:09,465 So it's like. 580 00:18:10,095 --> 00:18:12,555 It's super tough, but when, when the friction isn't about effort, 581 00:18:12,555 --> 00:18:13,810 when it becomes about direction. 582 00:18:14,639 --> 00:18:16,260 The fundamentals of how are we running the business? 583 00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:17,070 Who are we running it with? 584 00:18:17,070 --> 00:18:18,090 Who are our clients gonna be? 585 00:18:18,090 --> 00:18:19,020 Who are our staff gonna be? 586 00:18:19,469 --> 00:18:22,709 All of these little things that, that are so, so 587 00:18:22,860 --> 00:18:25,560 involved in whether the company works or not, or how 588 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,750 well it works, or how well we enjoy how it's working. 589 00:18:28,169 --> 00:18:30,570 That was what I meant before when I said same boat, 590 00:18:30,570 --> 00:18:31,409 different maps, right? 591 00:18:31,649 --> 00:18:33,750 Even if we're putting in the same amount of effort, let's 592 00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:36,060 say we do get that to parody, like just every day, somehow 593 00:18:36,060 --> 00:18:39,510 magically we hit exactly the same level of of effort. 594 00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:41,879 We're both rowing exactly the same speed. 595 00:18:41,925 --> 00:18:43,905 It turns out we're rowing different directions, 596 00:18:44,145 --> 00:18:44,925 we're going nowhere. 597 00:18:45,044 --> 00:18:49,245 To me, that's the most critical misalignment between, between 598 00:18:49,245 --> 00:18:51,794 co-founders and I think it's the harder one to diagnose. 599 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,200 Because what people will tend to look at is the other person's 600 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,909 output and they'll go, whether it's either working or not. 601 00:18:57,180 --> 00:18:59,700 What they don't look at in most cases is, is that 602 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:02,760 working towards the thing I am working towards as well? 603 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:04,649 Like, are we even pointed in the same direction? 604 00:19:04,649 --> 00:19:07,260 If I can quantify their effort, and that's all I looked at like. 605 00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:08,840 Good Will went 60 miles an hour. 606 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:09,860 I went 60 miles an hour. 607 00:19:10,070 --> 00:19:10,250 Right? 608 00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:10,670 Too damn bad. 609 00:19:10,670 --> 00:19:11,930 We went opposite directions. 610 00:19:11,930 --> 00:19:12,140 Right? 611 00:19:12,230 --> 00:19:13,295 That's not good, but that's good point. 612 00:19:13,295 --> 00:19:15,110 I think that's the part people fail to look at, right? 613 00:19:15,110 --> 00:19:16,700 That's the part people fail to analyze. 614 00:19:17,090 --> 00:19:19,760 You know, something that's really funny about everything 615 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,270 we talk about here is that none of it is new. 616 00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:26,060 Everything you're dealing with right now has been done a 617 00:19:26,060 --> 00:19:29,930 thousand times before you, which means the answer already exists. 618 00:19:29,930 --> 00:19:30,960 You may just not know it. 619 00:19:31,010 --> 00:19:31,790 But that's okay. 620 00:19:32,150 --> 00:19:33,980 That's kind of what we're here to do. 621 00:19:33,980 --> 00:19:36,650 We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually 622 00:19:36,650 --> 00:19:40,760 solve these problems all dayLong@groups.startups.com. 623 00:19:40,820 --> 00:19:44,150 So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing 624 00:19:44,150 --> 00:19:47,180 about what to do, let us just give you the answers to the 625 00:19:47,180 --> 00:19:48,530 test and be done with it. 626 00:19:48,860 --> 00:19:49,250 Okay? 627 00:19:49,310 --> 00:19:50,535 So when we think about that. 628 00:19:51,165 --> 00:19:55,185 And we're like, Hey, shit, I, I really don't have the same type 629 00:19:55,185 --> 00:19:56,805 of alignment as my co-founder. 630 00:19:57,105 --> 00:19:58,845 Again, I think this is, this is the, the recurring 631 00:19:58,845 --> 00:19:59,535 theme I was talking about. 632 00:19:59,715 --> 00:20:01,845 The first thing is to recognize that, right? 633 00:20:01,875 --> 00:20:04,755 To be able to say, I wanna be on the same page of, of course I 634 00:20:04,755 --> 00:20:06,405 want a page, but I'm not, right? 635 00:20:06,405 --> 00:20:09,465 Like, I don't believe they work hard, or I don't believe 636 00:20:09,495 --> 00:20:12,495 that we should raise VC, or, I don't believe this product 637 00:20:12,495 --> 00:20:13,515 is, you know, ever gonna work. 638 00:20:13,515 --> 00:20:16,335 Like, you have to be really honest about the fact that 639 00:20:16,335 --> 00:20:18,855 you are not on board with alignment before you try 640 00:20:18,855 --> 00:20:19,410 to force this alignment. 641 00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:22,879 I see this, you know, and we will get to, to, to couples 642 00:20:22,879 --> 00:20:25,760 in relationships in a second, but like, I see this in 643 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,820 relationships all the time where you've got, uh, uh, two 644 00:20:28,820 --> 00:20:31,580 people like somebody and their spouse and they can't reconcile 645 00:20:31,580 --> 00:20:32,915 because at the end of the day, they just don't agree. 646 00:20:34,140 --> 00:20:36,000 And they're like, you know, we wanna have a happy relationship, 647 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:36,930 marriage, whatever it is. 648 00:20:37,170 --> 00:20:38,670 And I'm like, you're not going to, you 649 00:20:38,670 --> 00:20:40,260 fundamentally don't agree. 650 00:20:40,290 --> 00:20:42,330 Like your, your foundation is broken. 651 00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:44,310 And that's what we're talking about here with co-founders, 652 00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:47,220 which, you know, the, the mirror between co-founders and 653 00:20:47,220 --> 00:20:49,020 spouses is so freaking tight. 654 00:20:49,470 --> 00:20:51,330 'cause it, you know, it is that kind of symbiotic 655 00:20:51,330 --> 00:20:54,210 relationship and I think it's hard to get right. 656 00:20:54,615 --> 00:20:55,005 The person 657 00:20:55,005 --> 00:20:57,405 you spend the other part of your waking hours with, right? 658 00:20:57,435 --> 00:20:58,095 Yeah, exactly. 659 00:20:58,095 --> 00:20:58,395 Yeah. 660 00:20:58,395 --> 00:20:59,175 It's your daytime spouse. 661 00:20:59,175 --> 00:21:01,065 You know, I think one of the challenges, I'm gonna go back 662 00:21:01,065 --> 00:21:02,685 to what I said, you know, the top of the episode, which 663 00:21:02,685 --> 00:21:04,605 is so many of these things come from the early days 664 00:21:04,605 --> 00:21:05,685 and just get perpetuated. 665 00:21:05,685 --> 00:21:07,635 Now this one's a bit different because it's, 666 00:21:07,635 --> 00:21:08,955 it's an inverse curve. 667 00:21:08,955 --> 00:21:11,445 I think at the beginning, co-founder alignment 668 00:21:11,445 --> 00:21:13,185 is actually very good. 669 00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:16,710 Because there's damn near nothing to to misalign on. 670 00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:16,890 Right. 671 00:21:16,890 --> 00:21:19,500 You're like, do you think this is a crazy idea that has 672 00:21:19,650 --> 00:21:21,990 almost no chances of succeeding and we should just try it? 673 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:22,800 Yeah. 674 00:21:22,830 --> 00:21:23,040 Right. 675 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:24,450 That's all there was to think about. 676 00:21:24,450 --> 00:21:24,629 Right? 677 00:21:24,629 --> 00:21:25,285 There's nothing there. 678 00:21:25,285 --> 00:21:25,405 Yep. 679 00:21:25,405 --> 00:21:27,750 There's no consequence yet, and I think that that's one of 680 00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:31,650 the, the big challenges with this is that founders miss the 681 00:21:31,650 --> 00:21:34,740 opportunities or don't take the opportunities to reassess 682 00:21:34,740 --> 00:21:35,940 that on an ongoing basis. 683 00:21:35,940 --> 00:21:36,000 Yeah. 684 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,460 I mean, talk about something that needs real time monitoring. 685 00:21:39,045 --> 00:21:42,825 It is co-founder alignment because it's something that by 686 00:21:42,915 --> 00:21:46,305 just nature of how a startup builds, it erodes or grows 687 00:21:46,305 --> 00:21:50,115 further apart as time passes by virtue of growing the business. 688 00:21:50,115 --> 00:21:50,205 Yep. 689 00:21:50,235 --> 00:21:53,955 Some, in some ways, your success is what will drive you apart. 690 00:21:53,955 --> 00:21:56,535 I don't mean that that like success necessarily has 691 00:21:56,535 --> 00:21:59,085 to, but just by getting bigger and having more 692 00:21:59,175 --> 00:22:01,425 dynamicism in the startup. 693 00:22:01,784 --> 00:22:06,135 You are inherently driving more variability, more opportunities 694 00:22:06,135 --> 00:22:08,865 for us to be misaligned and go different directions. 695 00:22:09,344 --> 00:22:10,905 Do you ever see this get caught in time? 696 00:22:10,905 --> 00:22:12,465 I'm trying to think of like, have I seen like 697 00:22:12,735 --> 00:22:13,995 founders catch this in time? 698 00:22:13,995 --> 00:22:15,110 I feel like there's like two types of founders. 699 00:22:15,825 --> 00:22:18,255 The ones that are like, they were just measuring it and 700 00:22:18,255 --> 00:22:20,205 they're constantly talking to doing it, and there's 701 00:22:20,205 --> 00:22:22,545 the ones that get to like the cataclysm and they're 702 00:22:22,545 --> 00:22:25,845 like, holy shit, I don't even recognize you anymore. 703 00:22:26,085 --> 00:22:27,135 Let's try to figure this out. 704 00:22:27,345 --> 00:22:28,035 I think everybody 705 00:22:28,035 --> 00:22:29,940 waits till it's too late because no one, this is, this 706 00:22:29,940 --> 00:22:30,555 is the whole point of this. 707 00:22:30,615 --> 00:22:33,885 This episode is, no one anticipates why it would be a 708 00:22:33,885 --> 00:22:35,175 problem to begin with again. 709 00:22:35,325 --> 00:22:35,475 Right? 710 00:22:35,475 --> 00:22:37,935 We go in this with the, oh, you know, we're 50 50 partners, so 711 00:22:37,935 --> 00:22:38,775 I guess everything is settled. 712 00:22:38,945 --> 00:22:41,284 That that's the least of your concerns. 713 00:22:41,495 --> 00:22:43,655 Best case that's, you know, that's settled. 714 00:22:43,955 --> 00:22:45,605 Uh, worst case is even that's a problem. 715 00:22:45,935 --> 00:22:47,705 But, you know, as we're talking about this, as we're talking 716 00:22:47,705 --> 00:22:50,165 to relationships, let's take this over to spouses because 717 00:22:50,165 --> 00:22:52,115 I, I think we're gonna see a lot of parallels here. 718 00:22:52,115 --> 00:22:52,175 Yeah. 719 00:22:52,715 --> 00:22:54,784 But what I would say, and we said this at the top 720 00:22:54,784 --> 00:22:58,564 of the episode, spouses are like the co-founders. 721 00:22:58,564 --> 00:22:59,615 No one talks about. 722 00:23:00,254 --> 00:23:02,445 For every founder there is someone at home and, and 723 00:23:02,445 --> 00:23:04,365 we say spouse, it could mean, you know, whatever 724 00:23:04,365 --> 00:23:05,475 your version at home is. 725 00:23:05,625 --> 00:23:07,485 Your, your emotional support that isn't your 726 00:23:07,514 --> 00:23:08,565 direct coworker type thing. 727 00:23:08,565 --> 00:23:08,805 Right? 728 00:23:08,955 --> 00:23:10,995 But let's just use spouses here for a second. 729 00:23:11,355 --> 00:23:13,695 One of the things that, that we don't consider when 730 00:23:13,695 --> 00:23:17,774 we go into this is whether or not our spouses are 731 00:23:17,774 --> 00:23:19,305 really on board with this. 732 00:23:19,310 --> 00:23:21,165 And I'll give you a a very common example. 733 00:23:21,165 --> 00:23:23,625 A common example is a, I'll use my own wife. 734 00:23:24,014 --> 00:23:26,985 Sarah just cares about two things, safety and 735 00:23:26,985 --> 00:23:28,575 security, which are kind of the same thing. 736 00:23:28,935 --> 00:23:29,265 Right. 737 00:23:29,625 --> 00:23:31,365 She does not wanna rock the boat. 738 00:23:31,665 --> 00:23:34,395 Her answer to everything is what's the safest answer? 739 00:23:34,635 --> 00:23:36,225 And, and that's already my answer before you've 740 00:23:36,225 --> 00:23:37,245 even given me my options. 741 00:23:39,615 --> 00:23:43,215 Now, the irony here that she married a guy. 742 00:23:43,650 --> 00:23:45,900 Who has done nothing but roll the dice his 743 00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:46,650 entire life, opposite's 744 00:23:46,650 --> 00:23:48,240 attract because it to be true. 745 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:48,600 Right. 746 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:49,980 It, it, it, it's unbelievable. 747 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,080 And when she, you know, when we met each other, when we 748 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,120 got married, I was already like 10 years in my career 749 00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:56,130 as an entrepreneur and I was all in entrepreneurs. 750 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,530 Clearly I was never gonna have a day job, so to speak. 751 00:23:58,770 --> 00:23:59,280 So. 752 00:23:59,675 --> 00:24:01,534 She knew what she was signing up for, but it 753 00:24:01,534 --> 00:24:03,064 hasn't changed her approach. 754 00:24:03,185 --> 00:24:05,495 She's not like, well, you know, we've married 14 years. 755 00:24:05,645 --> 00:24:07,804 Like, it's not like Sarah now is like, oh 756 00:24:07,804 --> 00:24:09,334 well, you know, screw it. 757 00:24:09,334 --> 00:24:10,145 Let's roll the dice. 758 00:24:10,175 --> 00:24:11,854 You know, her answer is no different now than 759 00:24:11,854 --> 00:24:12,875 it was 14 years ago. 760 00:24:12,875 --> 00:24:13,445 David got married. 761 00:24:13,864 --> 00:24:18,274 When you look at this with Nagas as she considers how dynamic 762 00:24:18,274 --> 00:24:21,725 what you do is and always had been, how does she relate to it? 763 00:24:21,725 --> 00:24:24,034 Are you guys aligned on startup 764 00:24:24,034 --> 00:24:24,125 work? 765 00:24:24,125 --> 00:24:25,304 No, we're aligned in it. 766 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:26,970 This is what we're doing. 767 00:24:27,270 --> 00:24:29,850 Are we aligned in terms of, of how we, we 768 00:24:29,850 --> 00:24:31,050 tolerate the pain of it? 769 00:24:31,199 --> 00:24:31,980 Absolutely not. 770 00:24:32,490 --> 00:24:32,639 Yeah. 771 00:24:32,639 --> 00:24:32,939 Right. 772 00:24:33,060 --> 00:24:35,310 Like it's, it's easy when it's working well, right? 773 00:24:35,310 --> 00:24:35,939 It always is. 774 00:24:35,939 --> 00:24:37,110 I was just gonna say the same thing. 775 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:37,590 Right. 776 00:24:37,590 --> 00:24:39,120 I, I think that's, I think that's an important 777 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:39,600 thing to think about. 778 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:40,919 And this, this goes for co-founders. 779 00:24:40,919 --> 00:24:43,290 This goes for, for spouses, your, your person, whoever that 780 00:24:43,290 --> 00:24:44,010 is, whatever that might be. 781 00:24:44,159 --> 00:24:46,290 With co-founders, we're, we're dividing equity. 782 00:24:46,409 --> 00:24:48,360 The spouses were, were not necessarily, I mean, 783 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:50,250 in under certain legal circumstances sure. 784 00:24:50,250 --> 00:24:52,110 You're also dividing your equity with them, but 785 00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:53,820 you are dividing pain. 786 00:24:53,895 --> 00:24:53,985 Right. 787 00:24:54,915 --> 00:24:57,135 The tolerance of pain when things aren't going well. 788 00:24:57,195 --> 00:24:57,405 Right. 789 00:24:57,405 --> 00:24:58,635 So when it's going great, get easy. 790 00:24:58,635 --> 00:24:59,025 Yeah, who cares? 791 00:24:59,025 --> 00:24:59,530 It's not problem. 792 00:24:59,530 --> 00:25:02,504 It's easy to share the good times when we're in the other 793 00:25:02,504 --> 00:25:04,215 95% of running a startup. 794 00:25:04,575 --> 00:25:06,075 It's not just about dividing the pain, it's about the 795 00:25:06,075 --> 00:25:07,995 fact that even if we were to divide the pain equally, pain 796 00:25:07,995 --> 00:25:09,675 tolerance isn't equal, right? 797 00:25:09,675 --> 00:25:11,745 Rarely are we, are we able to tolerate the 798 00:25:11,745 --> 00:25:12,495 pain in the same ways? 799 00:25:12,945 --> 00:25:15,615 And I think that that's one of the, the things that we see. 800 00:25:15,615 --> 00:25:18,940 I think that even the degree that my wife and I are aligned. 801 00:25:19,675 --> 00:25:23,605 Nagas is tolerance for pain around a specific kind of way. 802 00:25:23,635 --> 00:25:24,895 Anything that's a threat to stability. 803 00:25:24,895 --> 00:25:25,885 So very much like Sarah. 804 00:25:25,885 --> 00:25:28,045 Anything that's a threat to stability, uh, safety 805 00:25:28,045 --> 00:25:31,375 and security for our family is going to have very 806 00:25:31,375 --> 00:25:32,695 little tolerance, right? 807 00:25:32,695 --> 00:25:34,315 That gets a Yelp really quick. 808 00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:36,520 And this is from a woman who did three natural childbirth. 809 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,140 So she doesn't, she doesn't yelp easy. 810 00:25:38,260 --> 00:25:38,350 Right. 811 00:25:39,130 --> 00:25:41,710 So like she can tolerate some pain. 812 00:25:41,710 --> 00:25:41,770 Yeah. 813 00:25:41,770 --> 00:25:43,540 But there are particular types of pain that she's 814 00:25:43,540 --> 00:25:44,740 extremely susceptible to. 815 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:45,910 And that's, and that's one of 'em. 816 00:25:45,910 --> 00:25:47,890 And I think that was one of the things that I, I started 817 00:25:47,890 --> 00:25:51,130 to realize is like, to me, the startup is so closely 818 00:25:51,130 --> 00:25:54,550 tied to my identity and, and to her, it's not right. 819 00:25:54,580 --> 00:25:56,770 It, it's just an existential. 820 00:25:57,300 --> 00:25:59,280 Threat to stability in a lot of ways. 821 00:25:59,550 --> 00:25:59,760 Now. 822 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,620 It also, it also does provide, it also does 823 00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:02,129 a lot of other things. 824 00:26:02,129 --> 00:26:03,689 It it does, it does some wonderful things too. 825 00:26:03,929 --> 00:26:06,480 But I think that there is always this sense that it is very much 826 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,080 a sword that, that that cuts both ways and that there's a 827 00:26:10,590 --> 00:26:12,780 very, very strong fear around it, cutting that direction. 828 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,139 One of the things that's been really successful for me with 829 00:26:16,139 --> 00:26:20,665 my wife has been repeating out loud what our differences are. 830 00:26:21,855 --> 00:26:22,005 Yeah. 831 00:26:22,305 --> 00:26:24,375 And, and lemme spin and not to be confrontational, 832 00:26:24,375 --> 00:26:25,125 to be reassuring. 833 00:26:25,365 --> 00:26:27,375 So when we're doing something and I'm always, you know, 834 00:26:27,375 --> 00:26:29,385 you, you've been in this for me for a long time. 835 00:26:29,385 --> 00:26:31,545 I'm always doing something frigging weird when 836 00:26:31,545 --> 00:26:32,385 I tell her about it. 837 00:26:32,790 --> 00:26:33,510 Not inaccurate. 838 00:26:33,750 --> 00:26:33,930 Yeah. 839 00:26:34,890 --> 00:26:38,730 When I tell her about it, she is like, huh, well that's an idea. 840 00:26:39,780 --> 00:26:39,870 Yes. 841 00:26:41,265 --> 00:26:43,620 That's, that's, you had a thought it's 842 00:26:43,620 --> 00:26:44,790 something you could do. 843 00:26:45,030 --> 00:26:45,480 Right. 844 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:46,920 Please don't tell me you've already done it. 845 00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:47,580 And so, 846 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:48,090 yes, 847 00:26:49,890 --> 00:26:51,930 but, but did you say theoretically, please? 848 00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:52,740 Yeah, exactly. 849 00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:53,220 Exactly. 850 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,230 So here's what I always open up with. 851 00:26:55,290 --> 00:26:57,325 I always say, look, while we have shared goals. 852 00:26:58,030 --> 00:26:59,410 Uh, in life, you know, as a family. 853 00:26:59,470 --> 00:26:59,650 Sure. 854 00:26:59,650 --> 00:27:01,870 I understand that some of these goals are just my goals. 855 00:27:01,870 --> 00:27:02,890 You mentioned it a second ago. 856 00:27:02,890 --> 00:27:04,570 You talked about kinda like your ownership and 857 00:27:04,570 --> 00:27:05,530 the, and the outcome. 858 00:27:05,710 --> 00:27:05,860 Yep. 859 00:27:05,860 --> 00:27:06,550 Your identity. 860 00:27:06,730 --> 00:27:09,190 Those are things that are important to you and I, 861 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,400 but they don't necessarily matter to our wives, right? 862 00:27:12,670 --> 00:27:12,730 Yeah. 863 00:27:12,730 --> 00:27:14,080 Like, here's an example, Ryan. 864 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,590 If you and I service a million founders or 10 million 865 00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:20,380 founders, we're gonna have some sort of reaction to it. 866 00:27:20,390 --> 00:27:20,480 Yes. 867 00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:23,150 Like there's some, it's gonna spark something inside us. 868 00:27:23,420 --> 00:27:26,300 Everything from pride to reassurance to, uh, 869 00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:27,080 you, you name it, right? 870 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,610 Like all these, these good emotions. 871 00:27:28,910 --> 00:27:31,970 My wife doesn't give a shit, nor should she, by the way. 872 00:27:32,270 --> 00:27:32,480 Right. 873 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:33,775 She wouldn't even know it's, it's the 874 00:27:33,775 --> 00:27:34,160 same. 875 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,240 Oh, wow. 876 00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:38,540 Whether it's 10, a hundred, a billion. 877 00:27:38,540 --> 00:27:38,630 Right. 878 00:27:38,630 --> 00:27:38,780 It's no 879 00:27:38,780 --> 00:27:39,830 context for it. 880 00:27:39,830 --> 00:27:42,050 And again, nor should she, but this is my point. 881 00:27:42,050 --> 00:27:42,140 Right. 882 00:27:42,140 --> 00:27:42,395 Why would she. 883 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,120 Whenever we go down one of these paths, when we're having these 884 00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:48,780 discussions, I always like kind of zoom out and I say, look, I 885 00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:51,870 understand that, that my goals and my aspirations are different 886 00:27:51,870 --> 00:27:54,750 than yours now hopefully the result of my aspirations help 887 00:27:54,750 --> 00:27:56,100 with your aspirations, right? 888 00:27:56,310 --> 00:27:56,580 Yeah. 889 00:27:56,610 --> 00:27:56,850 But, 890 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,380 but, but, but they're not the same. 891 00:27:58,650 --> 00:28:01,440 So it's not fair for me to say, for me to say, well, why 892 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,490 don't you just back me up? 893 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,050 'cause our goals aren't the same. 894 00:28:04,709 --> 00:28:07,560 Like, I'm trying to do dumb shit in hopes that it 895 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,540 will make money, you know, which will help our family. 896 00:28:10,229 --> 00:28:12,540 But there's a lot of ways to make money that are a 897 00:28:12,540 --> 00:28:14,550 lot more safe than, than what I'm gonna go do. 898 00:28:14,790 --> 00:28:16,469 And I'm choosing not to do them. 899 00:28:16,649 --> 00:28:19,379 So by default we're, we're not aligned. 900 00:28:19,679 --> 00:28:22,409 And when she hears that, it doesn't mean she 901 00:28:22,469 --> 00:28:23,820 instantly agrees with me. 902 00:28:24,449 --> 00:28:28,320 But I think it goes for miles to hear that someone understands 903 00:28:28,409 --> 00:28:29,340 why you're not aligned 904 00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:30,645 as we're saying this now. 905 00:28:31,425 --> 00:28:34,125 I'm wondering if the if, I mean, clearly we've sort of 906 00:28:34,125 --> 00:28:36,555 said that like hoping for alignment might be part of 907 00:28:36,555 --> 00:28:37,935 the problem in the beginning. 908 00:28:37,935 --> 00:28:40,875 Because when we start to talk about misalignment, and I'm not 909 00:28:40,875 --> 00:28:42,135 even sure that's fair, right? 910 00:28:42,135 --> 00:28:44,055 Because we aren't necessarily misaligned. 911 00:28:44,475 --> 00:28:48,285 Misaligned suggests that we were supposed to be 912 00:28:48,555 --> 00:28:49,485 Oh, it's on the exact 913 00:28:49,635 --> 00:28:50,355 same axis. 914 00:28:50,505 --> 00:28:50,715 Yeah. 915 00:28:50,745 --> 00:28:50,955 Right. 916 00:28:50,955 --> 00:28:52,545 And it somehow we veered off. 917 00:28:52,815 --> 00:28:55,575 The word that's springing to mind now for me is asymmetry. 918 00:28:56,130 --> 00:28:58,890 Asymmetry, acknowledges that we're operating on different 919 00:28:58,890 --> 00:29:00,360 planes entirely, right? 920 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,460 Like we're you and I are operating versus where our 921 00:29:02,460 --> 00:29:04,230 spouses are operating, right? 922 00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:07,320 Where there are some common goals, we are doing things 923 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,040 on entirely different planes, different vectors, right? 924 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,420 Again, maybe a shared outcome. 925 00:29:12,420 --> 00:29:15,060 Keep family alive the way you and I are doing that, and 926 00:29:15,060 --> 00:29:16,170 the way they're doing that. 927 00:29:16,170 --> 00:29:17,430 Completely different things. 928 00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:17,700 Absolutely. 929 00:29:17,910 --> 00:29:20,040 It's different stakes, different consequences. 930 00:29:20,399 --> 00:29:22,139 Different time horizons too, right? 931 00:29:22,139 --> 00:29:25,409 Because there are decisions you and I are making that have 932 00:29:25,409 --> 00:29:28,350 like these in our own minds, these far reaching consequences. 933 00:29:28,350 --> 00:29:30,810 Like, I'm gonna start doing this thing now that maybe will pay 934 00:29:30,810 --> 00:29:32,219 off long time down the road. 935 00:29:32,399 --> 00:29:32,580 Right? 936 00:29:32,580 --> 00:29:35,159 And they're like, how do we manage, you 937 00:29:35,159 --> 00:29:35,939 know, children today? 938 00:29:35,939 --> 00:29:37,770 How do we manage the safety of the family today? 939 00:29:38,250 --> 00:29:39,725 Oh, they're also thinking long term as well. 940 00:29:40,199 --> 00:29:43,050 I also think the other problem with with misalignment, just 941 00:29:43,050 --> 00:29:46,350 as a concept, now that I'm thinking through it, is that. 942 00:29:46,725 --> 00:29:49,335 Somehow it implies it can be fixed with better 943 00:29:49,335 --> 00:29:51,555 communication or realignment. 944 00:29:51,555 --> 00:29:53,925 Whereas asymmetry says, this is structural. 945 00:29:53,925 --> 00:29:56,295 This is literally how this thing was built, and 946 00:29:56,295 --> 00:29:57,825 it's gonna stay this way. 947 00:29:58,365 --> 00:30:00,465 All we can do is sort of acknowledge, right? 948 00:30:00,465 --> 00:30:02,055 I think to your point, acknowledge, let's just 949 00:30:02,055 --> 00:30:04,905 acknowledge, let's just acknowledge the fact that we 950 00:30:04,935 --> 00:30:07,514 are dealing with an asymmetric situation or a misalignment. 951 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,070 I think that's about as close as we can get, isn't it? 952 00:30:11,340 --> 00:30:14,040 Right now, at, at this stage in our life, me being in, 953 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,770 in my now early fifties and, and, and you around the corner 954 00:30:16,770 --> 00:30:18,360 to them coming right up. 955 00:30:19,530 --> 00:30:23,190 We are at a stage in life where all of our peer groups 956 00:30:23,490 --> 00:30:24,750 are roughly at the same age. 957 00:30:24,750 --> 00:30:26,670 And I, and I know this applies to folks listening, so I'm gonna 958 00:30:26,670 --> 00:30:27,720 be sensitive when I say this. 959 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,270 This is that era where everybody starts to second 960 00:30:30,270 --> 00:30:31,080 guess their marriages. 961 00:30:31,785 --> 00:30:34,065 Just, just fundamentally, the kids are a certain 962 00:30:34,065 --> 00:30:36,225 age, the marriages of a certain age where everyone's 963 00:30:36,225 --> 00:30:37,185 like, shit, is this it? 964 00:30:37,395 --> 00:30:39,645 And I have conversations with all my friends around 965 00:30:39,645 --> 00:30:40,305 this and, and Right. 966 00:30:40,575 --> 00:30:43,185 I've got a massive friend group. 967 00:30:43,635 --> 00:30:44,445 A massive friend group. 968 00:30:44,445 --> 00:30:45,795 I know you have a huge friend group too. 969 00:30:46,305 --> 00:30:49,695 And I gotta tell you, all the couples that Sarah and I know, 970 00:30:49,815 --> 00:30:51,735 and we're talking hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and 971 00:30:51,735 --> 00:30:54,525 hundreds of couples, we can't name three that are happy, 972 00:30:54,795 --> 00:30:55,905 that are, that are aligned. 973 00:30:56,774 --> 00:30:57,254 That's a pity. 974 00:30:57,254 --> 00:30:57,975 That's fucked up. 975 00:30:58,395 --> 00:30:58,695 Okay. 976 00:30:58,725 --> 00:30:58,995 Yeah. 977 00:30:59,024 --> 00:31:03,915 However, however, it also goes to point to 978 00:31:03,915 --> 00:31:05,385 how hard this is, right? 979 00:31:05,385 --> 00:31:07,965 I think in the early days we go into this being like, 980 00:31:08,114 --> 00:31:09,405 well, I wanna be rich. 981 00:31:09,405 --> 00:31:10,965 You wanna be rich, you know, blah, blah. 982 00:31:11,084 --> 00:31:12,135 Like, we're lying, right? 983 00:31:12,344 --> 00:31:12,915 As if 984 00:31:12,915 --> 00:31:14,655 that's, that's the end of it, right? 985 00:31:14,774 --> 00:31:16,574 Again, man, but look, think about it though. 986 00:31:16,574 --> 00:31:19,784 Like just from a, just go to a pure mathematical state, right? 987 00:31:20,145 --> 00:31:22,755 At the origin point, everything's aligned. 988 00:31:22,755 --> 00:31:25,395 It's the second you start to move further, that that's when 989 00:31:25,395 --> 00:31:27,495 the line, it can't diverge until that when we're at 990 00:31:27,495 --> 00:31:29,295 zero, everyone's aligned. 991 00:31:29,295 --> 00:31:29,475 Right? 992 00:31:29,475 --> 00:31:30,225 It's easy. 993 00:31:30,225 --> 00:31:31,365 It's, it's, of course we are. 994 00:31:31,575 --> 00:31:34,755 When I was a little kid, I, I would, uh, walk up to another 995 00:31:34,785 --> 00:31:37,155 little kid, doesn't matter where we were, and I'm like, 996 00:31:37,575 --> 00:31:38,715 I like Mike Tyson's punch out. 997 00:31:38,715 --> 00:31:40,275 He is like, I like my Tyson as a punch out. 998 00:31:40,365 --> 00:31:40,875 Let's be best 999 00:31:40,875 --> 00:31:41,265 friends. 1000 00:31:41,295 --> 00:31:41,985 Let's be best friends. 1001 00:31:42,055 --> 00:31:42,145 That 1002 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:43,480 was, it. 1003 00:31:43,580 --> 00:31:45,205 Did, was there another way to meet children 1004 00:31:45,205 --> 00:31:47,155 between 1986 and 1990? 1005 00:31:47,185 --> 00:31:49,255 No, and, and, and just like I didn't use one. 1006 00:31:49,525 --> 00:31:50,815 I watch it with my son now. 1007 00:31:50,815 --> 00:31:51,925 It's the exact same thing. 1008 00:31:51,925 --> 00:31:52,165 Right? 1009 00:31:52,165 --> 00:31:52,480 He is. 1010 00:31:52,540 --> 00:31:54,025 He is like, I like Fortnite. 1011 00:31:54,025 --> 00:31:55,465 Is the other kid's like, I like Fortnite. 1012 00:31:55,525 --> 00:31:56,485 We're best friends, right? 1013 00:31:57,325 --> 00:31:57,655 Yep. 1014 00:31:58,555 --> 00:32:00,625 So the point is, to your point, we get this origin. 1015 00:32:01,024 --> 00:32:04,110 We're both on the same page, but we haven't introduced any 1016 00:32:04,110 --> 00:32:05,189 of the other, the factors. 1017 00:32:05,729 --> 00:32:08,939 But I think what happens is because we fail to realize those 1018 00:32:09,149 --> 00:32:12,389 really important nuances, we don't acknowledge 'em, which I 1019 00:32:12,389 --> 00:32:14,459 think is important for all these categories we're talking about. 1020 00:32:14,459 --> 00:32:18,479 I think acknowledging it is by far the biggest part, and I 1021 00:32:18,479 --> 00:32:21,179 would say one part of that is acknowledging it to yourself. 1022 00:32:21,255 --> 00:32:22,695 And being, being okay. 1023 00:32:22,695 --> 00:32:24,585 Like, 'cause a lot of people will be like, oh well that 1024 00:32:24,585 --> 00:32:26,535 person doesn't work as hard as I do, so fuck them. 1025 00:32:26,715 --> 00:32:28,245 Like, no dude like that. 1026 00:32:28,245 --> 00:32:30,225 That's the broken, probably not premise that like, that's 1027 00:32:30,225 --> 00:32:31,215 why you're never gonna work. 1028 00:32:31,215 --> 00:32:31,845 Make this work. 1029 00:32:31,845 --> 00:32:32,145 Right. 1030 00:32:32,835 --> 00:32:34,725 The second part about it is communicating that 1031 00:32:34,725 --> 00:32:37,605 acknowledgement to them, Hey, I understand why you 1032 00:32:37,605 --> 00:32:38,685 don't work on Saturday. 1033 00:32:38,745 --> 00:32:39,795 Honestly, I have to do it. 1034 00:32:39,825 --> 00:32:41,175 'cause my consequences are higher. 1035 00:32:41,295 --> 00:32:41,865 You don't. 1036 00:32:41,925 --> 00:32:42,135 Yep. 1037 00:32:42,375 --> 00:32:44,085 But if you would, you'd be doing me a huge favor. 1038 00:32:44,085 --> 00:32:44,145 Yeah. 1039 00:32:44,325 --> 00:32:47,085 That is way different than, why aren't you working on Saturday? 1040 00:32:47,475 --> 00:32:48,405 You create the acknowledgement. 1041 00:32:48,615 --> 00:32:49,514 Same thing with my wife. 1042 00:32:49,785 --> 00:32:53,445 Hey, I think we should go risk our personal money as a family 1043 00:32:53,865 --> 00:32:57,375 on investing in this initiative, but I know that there's a lot of 1044 00:32:57,375 --> 00:32:58,785 places we could put that money. 1045 00:32:59,129 --> 00:33:01,800 This is probably a riskier one that I feel good about. 1046 00:33:01,860 --> 00:33:03,330 That makes no sense to you. 1047 00:33:03,570 --> 00:33:04,500 So I'll understand. 1048 00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:05,340 If you're hesitant. 1049 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:06,840 It's not an affront to me. 1050 00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:09,629 It's because your risk tolerance, your needs, 1051 00:33:09,629 --> 00:33:11,370 your outcomes are different than mine. 1052 00:33:11,370 --> 00:33:11,460 Right. 1053 00:33:11,699 --> 00:33:14,100 So there's no version where I can come to you and say, 1054 00:33:14,460 --> 00:33:15,540 what's wrong with you? 1055 00:33:15,929 --> 00:33:17,790 I, I should already know that going in. 1056 00:33:17,850 --> 00:33:18,030 Yeah. 1057 00:33:18,060 --> 00:33:20,429 If I've got like, you know, any, any level of empathy. 1058 00:33:20,699 --> 00:33:21,030 Yeah. 1059 00:33:21,179 --> 00:33:22,889 You know, it's, it's interesting 'cause I think sometimes. 1060 00:33:23,254 --> 00:33:25,145 There truly are times where we're just looking at the same 1061 00:33:25,145 --> 00:33:29,254 problem differently, but I feel like with this mal-alignment 1062 00:33:29,254 --> 00:33:32,885 or this asymmetry, that it's not just that we're looking at 1063 00:33:32,885 --> 00:33:35,885 the same problem differently, we're we're actually looking 1064 00:33:35,885 --> 00:33:36,995 at different problems, right? 1065 00:33:36,995 --> 00:33:40,085 We have the same circumstances, but we're actually looking at 1066 00:33:40,085 --> 00:33:42,245 different problems, meaning that the, the outcome that 1067 00:33:42,245 --> 00:33:44,615 they're most concerned about on the other side of this thing. 1068 00:33:45,435 --> 00:33:47,325 Is different than, than what we're looking at. 1069 00:33:47,330 --> 00:33:47,565 Right, right. 1070 00:33:47,565 --> 00:33:50,235 So the problem being a conduit to whatever that transformation 1071 00:33:50,235 --> 00:33:53,655 of the future looks like, that's where the, the difference is. 1072 00:33:53,655 --> 00:33:57,554 And I think that's, for me, it was a hard recognition to have. 1073 00:33:57,554 --> 00:33:59,024 Like I had to all, all of a sudden understand 1074 00:33:59,024 --> 00:33:59,625 and acknowledge that. 1075 00:33:59,625 --> 00:34:04,425 It's like there are times where when co-founders, employees, 1076 00:34:04,429 --> 00:34:07,000 staff, friends, wife, children. 1077 00:34:07,935 --> 00:34:10,634 It wasn't that we were looking at the problem differently, 1078 00:34:10,784 --> 00:34:13,245 it was that we were literally looking at different problems. 1079 00:34:13,245 --> 00:34:15,134 Like we were just fundamentally wanting to 1080 00:34:15,134 --> 00:34:17,565 go and do different things from this new origin point. 1081 00:34:17,565 --> 00:34:17,715 Yeah. 1082 00:34:17,715 --> 00:34:19,755 I that where the problem is now all of a sudden we're, 1083 00:34:19,755 --> 00:34:20,654 we're diverging there. 1084 00:34:21,134 --> 00:34:23,594 That's something you just kind of have to respect. 1085 00:34:23,594 --> 00:34:25,154 There's not much way around that. 1086 00:34:25,275 --> 00:34:25,545 Right. 1087 00:34:25,574 --> 00:34:27,705 Well, sort of trying to just literally realign 1088 00:34:27,705 --> 00:34:28,634 people to make them you, 1089 00:34:29,114 --> 00:34:29,985 which, well, okay. 1090 00:34:29,985 --> 00:34:30,554 That's what I'm saying. 1091 00:34:30,554 --> 00:34:30,764 Right. 1092 00:34:30,764 --> 00:34:33,375 Like I, I went through probably the first decade of my, of 1093 00:34:33,375 --> 00:34:35,415 my career frustrated Yeah. 1094 00:34:35,415 --> 00:34:36,764 That everyone wasn't. 1095 00:34:37,209 --> 00:34:38,350 On my plan. 1096 00:34:38,589 --> 00:34:42,669 And, and so I kept trying to like force feed all of these 1097 00:34:42,669 --> 00:34:46,089 people into, into my version of how I thought things should 1098 00:34:46,089 --> 00:34:49,330 go, and then being continually frustrated every single time 1099 00:34:49,540 --> 00:34:50,649 that they weren't going my way. 1100 00:34:51,250 --> 00:34:53,889 And that's not the same as saying, well then I just 1101 00:34:53,889 --> 00:34:55,000 defer to everybody every time. 1102 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,230 That's, that's not the same thing. 1103 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:56,709 Sure. 1104 00:34:56,709 --> 00:34:59,319 But if, if you were to say, Hey, my way or the highway 1105 00:34:59,439 --> 00:35:03,160 that ends poorly, yes, you can force enough things, but 1106 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:04,600 eventually that will break 1107 00:35:04,870 --> 00:35:05,080 for sure. 1108 00:35:05,895 --> 00:35:09,345 Because if you manufacture alignments, you somehow 1109 00:35:09,345 --> 00:35:10,815 cobble it together, right? 1110 00:35:11,385 --> 00:35:12,915 It's gonna bend back outta shape. 1111 00:35:12,915 --> 00:35:13,185 Right? 1112 00:35:13,185 --> 00:35:14,955 The type of alignment will fade. 1113 00:35:15,465 --> 00:35:17,355 Uh, the thing I like, empathy lasts. 1114 00:35:17,355 --> 00:35:18,975 We know this, so if you can't, it's point. 1115 00:35:18,975 --> 00:35:23,025 Always share the same goals, at least share the understanding 1116 00:35:23,385 --> 00:35:25,065 right, of those differences. 1117 00:35:25,275 --> 00:35:27,675 Then I think you, you've got, you got something 1118 00:35:27,675 --> 00:35:28,245 you can build from. 1119 00:35:28,245 --> 00:35:28,785 At that point, 1120 00:35:28,965 --> 00:35:30,735 I always say, you cannot change people. 1121 00:35:30,735 --> 00:35:32,565 You can only change your understanding of people. 1122 00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:36,240 And so I'm not gonna change my wife to be this 1123 00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:38,010 risk taking maverick. 1124 00:35:38,190 --> 00:35:38,430 Right. 1125 00:35:38,430 --> 00:35:40,050 This is not going to happen. 1126 00:35:40,110 --> 00:35:40,410 Right. 1127 00:35:40,590 --> 00:35:43,260 And by the way, who the hell am I to even suggest 1128 00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:44,160 that she should change? 1129 00:35:44,430 --> 00:35:44,670 Right. 1130 00:35:44,675 --> 00:35:44,855 Right. 1131 00:35:44,855 --> 00:35:47,010 That, that would, that could actually go perfectly 1132 00:35:47,010 --> 00:35:47,580 horribly for 1133 00:35:47,580 --> 00:35:47,640 me. 1134 00:35:47,820 --> 00:35:48,120 Right. 1135 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:48,690 For all we know, 1136 00:35:48,810 --> 00:35:48,930 right? 1137 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:50,130 I my only control valve. 1138 00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:53,220 But I can change my understanding by saying, Hey, 1139 00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:54,660 this is what makes my wife tick. 1140 00:35:54,665 --> 00:35:56,730 These, these are the things that concern her. 1141 00:35:56,730 --> 00:35:58,290 These are the things that excite her, right? 1142 00:35:58,290 --> 00:36:00,750 Like and understand that, that when I bring to the 1143 00:36:00,750 --> 00:36:04,470 table shit that concerns her, I shouldn't expect a 1144 00:36:04,470 --> 00:36:05,970 high five answer, right? 1145 00:36:05,970 --> 00:36:07,000 I should expect right. 1146 00:36:07,305 --> 00:36:09,075 A pushback because that's who she is. 1147 00:36:09,195 --> 00:36:12,225 Conversely, when she has a conversation with me, she 1148 00:36:12,225 --> 00:36:15,075 should know that my answer is gonna be, fuck it, risk it all. 1149 00:36:15,195 --> 00:36:16,845 Like, let's see what happens, right? 1150 00:36:16,905 --> 00:36:17,715 Let's see what happens, 1151 00:36:17,895 --> 00:36:18,105 right? 1152 00:36:18,105 --> 00:36:20,565 Let's see what happens, because I'm okay with that because 1153 00:36:20,570 --> 00:36:23,085 I, yeah, I'm okay with what happens on the other side of us. 1154 00:36:23,085 --> 00:36:23,625 See what happens. 1155 00:36:23,625 --> 00:36:24,465 'cause I always figure it out. 1156 00:36:24,795 --> 00:36:27,345 But again, I think what's killed me for a long time, 1157 00:36:27,345 --> 00:36:28,935 I get it now, which is why we're talking about this now. 1158 00:36:29,415 --> 00:36:31,875 What killed me for a long time was one, not acknowledging 1159 00:36:31,875 --> 00:36:33,135 myself in the second. 1160 00:36:33,315 --> 00:36:34,515 I wasn't good. 1161 00:36:35,174 --> 00:36:35,654 I am now. 1162 00:36:35,654 --> 00:36:38,384 I wasn't good at saying I understand where you're 1163 00:36:38,384 --> 00:36:40,064 coming from, Uhhuh. 1164 00:36:40,064 --> 00:36:42,825 I understand why what I'm asking is antithetical to how you're 1165 00:36:42,825 --> 00:36:44,685 built, and I recognize that. 1166 00:36:45,044 --> 00:36:48,044 I would say my batting average for people giving me the same 1167 00:36:48,044 --> 00:36:49,725 consideration is almost zero. 1168 00:36:50,564 --> 00:36:51,015 Yeah. 1169 00:36:51,555 --> 00:36:52,754 I didn't say it work the other way too. 1170 00:36:53,085 --> 00:36:53,654 The other way too. 1171 00:36:53,654 --> 00:36:55,785 Well, I haven't had an employee come to me and say, 1172 00:36:55,785 --> 00:36:58,335 you know, will I understand that your consequences are 1173 00:36:58,335 --> 00:37:01,095 pretty significant and mine really aren't that high, so 1174 00:37:01,095 --> 00:37:03,105 I'm gonna work a little bit harder just to help you out. 1175 00:37:03,705 --> 00:37:04,334 Pretty much heard that. 1176 00:37:04,334 --> 00:37:04,515 Never, 1177 00:37:05,145 --> 00:37:05,475 yeah. 1178 00:37:05,475 --> 00:37:06,524 I don't think I've heard that one. 1179 00:37:06,584 --> 00:37:07,455 I don't think I've heard that one. 1180 00:37:07,830 --> 00:37:11,340 No, but look, that goes back to understanding and acknowledging 1181 00:37:11,340 --> 00:37:12,270 and respecting that difference. 1182 00:37:12,270 --> 00:37:14,190 There's, there's a reason they're not saying that to you. 1183 00:37:14,370 --> 00:37:14,820 Right? 1184 00:37:14,820 --> 00:37:14,830 Right. 1185 00:37:15,030 --> 00:37:15,480 Yeah. 1186 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,000 There's, there's a fundamental, there's not a reason for them 1187 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,375 to say that to you, I guess is a different way to put it. 1188 00:37:19,375 --> 00:37:19,860 Great way to put it. 1189 00:37:19,860 --> 00:37:20,400 Great to put it, yeah. 1190 00:37:20,730 --> 00:37:22,830 And so I think that, yeah, go ahead. 1191 00:37:23,070 --> 00:37:25,290 I was gonna say, so like, you know, I used to think that like, 1192 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,430 with alignment, it was, I just needed to convince everyone 1193 00:37:29,790 --> 00:37:31,560 that my way was the way to go. 1194 00:37:31,790 --> 00:37:34,280 Not, not being like, like a jerk about it, but just like 1195 00:37:34,315 --> 00:37:36,860 I, I thought, I thought that was my job was to convince 1196 00:37:36,860 --> 00:37:38,720 like the team that this was, you know, the future 1197 00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:39,710 path to work really hard. 1198 00:37:39,710 --> 00:37:42,290 All these things, and I realize just a little bit of it is. 1199 00:37:42,690 --> 00:37:43,680 But like 10%. 1200 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:44,310 Right, right. 1201 00:37:44,310 --> 00:37:46,920 Like enough to say, Hey, just by the way, here's the 1202 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:47,880 direction I'd like to go. 1203 00:37:48,330 --> 00:37:51,150 The other 90% of like making them do it because I wanted 1204 00:37:51,150 --> 00:37:53,250 them to didn't, never went well. 1205 00:37:53,250 --> 00:37:53,610 Like it. 1206 00:37:54,060 --> 00:37:54,299 No. 1207 00:37:54,299 --> 00:37:54,450 I dunno 1208 00:37:55,110 --> 00:37:55,890 how people think that worked. 1209 00:37:55,890 --> 00:37:56,145 Well, no, 1210 00:37:56,145 --> 00:37:57,150 I, I think we have to stop. 1211 00:37:57,210 --> 00:37:59,490 You just have to, at some point you just have to stop trying to. 1212 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,420 Erase or correct the misalignment. 1213 00:38:01,420 --> 00:38:04,930 I think now asymmetry is literally architected 1214 00:38:04,930 --> 00:38:05,980 into a founder's life. 1215 00:38:05,980 --> 00:38:08,890 Like what we are trying to do by its nature is asymmetric, right? 1216 00:38:08,890 --> 00:38:11,290 We're trying to take something and it's nothing and make 1217 00:38:11,290 --> 00:38:12,250 it into something huge. 1218 00:38:12,250 --> 00:38:12,430 Right? 1219 00:38:12,430 --> 00:38:14,110 Asymmetry at its at, its its best, right? 1220 00:38:14,110 --> 00:38:16,509 We're gonna just absolutely try to, to scale something. 1221 00:38:16,810 --> 00:38:19,509 I think the real trick is not letting it break relationships 1222 00:38:19,509 --> 00:38:22,420 as we go, because I think that perfect alignment is, 1223 00:38:22,420 --> 00:38:24,160 is it's, it's a myth, right? 1224 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:25,205 I don't think it's something we even. 1225 00:38:25,655 --> 00:38:27,815 Can force function evenly. 1226 00:38:27,935 --> 00:38:29,405 Not if we try really hard think, we'll break ourselves 1227 00:38:29,405 --> 00:38:32,915 doing it mutual respect, like that's always in style. 1228 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:32,980 Right? 1229 00:38:32,985 --> 00:38:33,245 Right. 1230 00:38:33,245 --> 00:38:36,305 That's how you keep building, um, to the point where you 1231 00:38:36,305 --> 00:38:37,475 maybe you do reach alignment. 1232 00:38:37,475 --> 00:38:39,545 'cause again, it's really easy to be aligned in the good times. 1233 00:38:39,815 --> 00:38:40,055 Right. 1234 00:38:40,055 --> 00:38:40,205 Right. 1235 00:38:40,205 --> 00:38:40,620 You gotta get there. 1236 00:38:40,985 --> 00:38:43,775 No one's ever had a, a huge problem because we're making 1237 00:38:43,775 --> 00:38:45,575 so much money and we just don't know where to put it. 1238 00:38:45,580 --> 00:38:46,025 Right, right. 1239 00:38:46,025 --> 00:38:47,255 And if you do no. 1240 00:38:47,255 --> 00:38:48,155 In the brown bags. 1241 00:38:48,155 --> 00:38:48,395 No. 1242 00:38:48,395 --> 00:38:48,905 In the green 1243 00:38:48,905 --> 00:38:49,385 bags. 1244 00:38:49,415 --> 00:38:49,685 Ha. 1245 00:38:49,685 --> 00:38:49,985 Happy. 1246 00:38:50,015 --> 00:38:50,825 Oh, you know what's so funny? 1247 00:38:50,945 --> 00:38:53,375 This just reminds me of the dumbest story, Ponzi, 1248 00:38:53,375 --> 00:38:54,965 I can't remember the guy's first name, but like Jeffrey 1249 00:38:54,965 --> 00:38:55,565 or something like that. 1250 00:38:55,775 --> 00:38:57,695 Ponzi actually had this problem. 1251 00:38:57,755 --> 00:38:59,465 You know, the Ponzi scheme comes from a guy named, 1252 00:38:59,495 --> 00:39:00,485 uh, last name Ponzi. 1253 00:39:00,870 --> 00:39:04,350 And, and as the the myth goes, there was a time that Ponzi was 1254 00:39:04,350 --> 00:39:07,920 making so much money that his issue was, he couldn't figure 1255 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,930 out where to put it 'cause he couldn't put it in a bank. 1256 00:39:10,170 --> 00:39:12,000 So he was like stacking it in apartments or 1257 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:12,690 something like that. 1258 00:39:12,690 --> 00:39:12,900 Like 1259 00:39:13,230 --> 00:39:13,500 yeah. 1260 00:39:13,740 --> 00:39:14,310 Oh, that's amazing. 1261 00:39:14,310 --> 00:39:15,420 My rats and all that. 1262 00:39:15,420 --> 00:39:16,529 Yeah, yeah, 1263 00:39:16,529 --> 00:39:16,580 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1264 00:39:16,620 --> 00:39:19,230 Oh yeah, that was, um, that was, I suppose in extreme 1265 00:39:19,230 --> 00:39:21,390 cases it could also cause fighting. 1266 00:39:21,390 --> 00:39:22,799 But I guess the point, you have so much money, you 1267 00:39:22,799 --> 00:39:24,330 don't know where to put it, and the rats are eating it. 1268 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,310 You're probably not fighting about money. 1269 00:39:26,340 --> 00:39:26,400 Yeah. 1270 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:27,029 You're gonna be okay. 1271 00:39:27,029 --> 00:39:27,570 You're gonna be okay. 1272 00:39:27,870 --> 00:39:28,080 So, 1273 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,850 so here, here's what I'd say like for all of us 1274 00:39:29,850 --> 00:39:31,590 that, that are trying to like fight this battle. 1275 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,020 The way to win this battle is to fight it less. 1276 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,920 The way to win this battle is to zoom out and say, here are 1277 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,090 the things that I can control. 1278 00:39:39,090 --> 00:39:40,410 Way less than any of us think. 1279 00:39:40,410 --> 00:39:40,890 Think it is. 1280 00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:42,450 And here's the things I can't control. 1281 00:39:42,540 --> 00:39:44,460 The reality is you can control your own perception. 1282 00:39:44,460 --> 00:39:45,720 You can't control other people. 1283 00:39:45,990 --> 00:39:48,600 So if we want alignment, alignment has to come from. 1284 00:39:48,735 --> 00:39:51,735 Our understanding of what can be controlled in. 1285 00:39:51,735 --> 00:39:54,555 And by way of that, what can be compromised in what can't. 1286 00:39:54,884 --> 00:39:56,955 And the sooner we get to that point, the sooner we 1287 00:39:56,955 --> 00:39:58,515 kinda like take our hands off the wheel for a second. 1288 00:39:58,515 --> 00:40:00,465 It's like, you know what, I'm not gonna get everything I 1289 00:40:00,465 --> 00:40:01,575 want out of every everyone. 1290 00:40:01,575 --> 00:40:04,185 So I wanna get as much as I can out of everyone. 1291 00:40:04,425 --> 00:40:06,585 That will be the only thing that will ever get, 1292 00:40:06,585 --> 00:40:09,495 that will get even close to a perfect alignment. 1293 00:40:10,545 --> 00:40:12,375 Overthinking your startup because you're going it alone. 1294 00:40:12,795 --> 00:40:15,645 You don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't because instead, 1295 00:40:15,705 --> 00:40:18,765 you can learn directly from peers who've been in your shoes. 1296 00:40:18,885 --> 00:40:21,195 Connect with bootstrap founders and the advisors 1297 00:40:21,195 --> 00:40:23,625 helping them win in the startups.com community. 1298 00:40:23,775 --> 00:40:28,425 Check out the startups.com community@www.startups.com 1299 00:40:28,545 --> 00:40:29,445 to see if it's for you. 1300 00:40:29,685 --> 00:40:30,735 Could be just the thing you need. 1301 00:40:30,945 --> 00:40:31,935 I hope to see you inside.