Our first story deals with a subculture of heavy metal music that some feel is sending a dangerous message to your kids.

The forces of evil on the dark side of Devil, right?

And I want to talk tonight about the devil and demons and witches and Wizards.

And we just.

Mix it up with hardcore and aggression.

And come out with something.

We face an original sound, loud, fast, heavy.

You know well, what do you got?

What do you got?

You're listening to Riff Worship, the podcast that attempts to answer the age-old question, what makes the riff?

Why do we care about riffs, talking to people who write great riffs.

I'm one of your hosts, Austin Paulson.

Normally I would have my friends, Justin Swindle, Dylan Adams with me, but we have some wonderful replacements, some special guests.

They released one of my favorite records from last year, Duality, and they've done so again with their most recent record, Doomed, out now on Unorthodox emanations, avant-garde music, and total dissonance worship.

It's dissonant, it's haunting, it's beautiful, it's melodic, it has everything and so much more.

I'm of course here with Khalil and Todzio from Defacement.

Guys, how are we?

Cool man, we are doing kites.

Now I, I, I'm in love with it.

I'm so happy it's out.

I'm so happy to have it.

I got my my physical copy in the mail a little while back, but I, I just want to, I want to hear what your thoughts are now that it's been out for a little bit.

How do you feel?

Like what?

What's the?

IT must be a weight off your shoulders.

Yeah, I mean doomed.

It's was like a heavy moment when I was composing the album, you know, I wasn't feeling good, to be honest, you know?

Yeah, Especially like the process.

I think I wrote everything in in, let's say, I think, listen, then wait.

Then in one week, you know, but also, you know, and then I have to share the ideas with Teds you and Teds you.

He has to add his own stuff because I record everything with Teds you, you know, And yeah, so I'm so proud about this album.

I mean, it's not really, it's not really still like I'm not satisfied enough because I think the process of creativity is developing, you know, and also I don't want to put everything in one album, you know, because I think I skipped many, many, many riffs just because I feel like, no, let's keep it later, you know, the album's so harsh, but also still like beautiful in the same ideal.

Interesting Tatia, how you feel about it.

No, it's true.

You don't want to over saturate it with like, rolling out everything that you have in one go and compensate the music for just wanting to push everything into it.

But yeah, I mean, it did feel like it kind of wrote itself in a sense, yeah.

I think there's a balance of, of everything from like the more like kind of sparse textual moments.

There's plenty of fucking riffs on this record as well.

And maybe on the on the topic of riffs, you know one of the questions that we like to, oh, we got another person joining us here one second.

Ahmed, I think no.

Yeah, no.

There you are.

How you doing, man?

I was Ahmed.

I was just asking Khalil and Tadzio, like, now that the record's out, how do you feel about it?

What's what's your feeling?

They kind of were talking about, you know, maybe not over saturating the record with so many riffs and kind of, you know, maybe saving some things for later releases.

I don't know.

What was what were your feelings like coming out of the record?

Yeah, I feel, I feel really good about it.

Like I think it's also like sound wise and even from the ideas, it's so far the thing I'm mostly like feeling happy with, especially after playing it live.

Like we're playing some songs from it live.

In the last concert we played three out of five songs and it was like the energy was really good, like, and there was also like a lot of changes and it was mostly like really interesting playing wise and also like how it was perceived.

Also in the life set was really really fun.

It's fun to listen to you.

And I was kind of mentioning to these guys like I think there's such a balance between like the more like sparse kind of textural parts and the riffs and you know, on the topic of riffs and whoever maybe want to start, like what, what does a riff mean to you?

Like I, I feel like we asked a lot of people on our show, like, how would you define a riff?

What gravitates you to to a riff?

What does it mean as a listener and a musician?

Like what does it mean a riff mean to defacement?

Yeah.

But yeah, I can, yeah.

I would try to answer it in my way.

You know, I don't know man, with with composing in general.

Like for me, I have a weird life that I play guitar everyday, you know, So I like, you know, the moment that I wake up, I just like pick the guitar and they start like composing.

So I don't have like a like, you know, a definition for like what makes the ref like, like I don't think about theory.

I don't think about harmony or like rhythm or whatever.

I just like drill something and then I try to combine it with other ideas, you know, and that's it, you know, like like, yeah, I think I know the, the Flipboard almost very well.

But yeah, I never thought about like Harmony or yeah.

It's a feeling, right?

Like it, you just kind of know it and.

I guess so, yeah.

Yeah, Tadzio Ahmed, maybe what what were some of the first riffs you learned how to play when you're first getting into this style of music or just in general?

Like in this kind of music, it was maybe some fresh metal things from Sodom or Morbid Angel or like Exciter.

So the bands like the the old school 80s were things I started with.

And yeah, mostly was that what got me into like this kind of or at least my my first beginning with it.

I just, you know what?

I have actually off the side.

I just picked this up the other day.

I found a good copy of it.

Yeah.

I mean, I look at, I look at something like that and I listen to all the riffs on it.

Those are just a bunch of crazy Canadian maniacs.

Like the sound of the drums in this album, like in general, the guitars.

And it's very nasty, yeah.

Yeah, it's filthy.

Tadia, What were some of the first riffs you were learning to play?

To be honest, I have no idea.

I've never really been into learning other music.

I guess I just fucked around I guess.

And yeah, I think later, later on I started transcribing piano parts from video game music and that kind of shit.

But I'm, I don't think I'm a riff based guitarist.

The fact that I don't know what the proper definition of a riff is, is I think the big example of it.

But yeah, I mean, if it's if I have to quote anything, the first part that I sat down to learn was called Flight of the Bamboo Cutter by Toho.

OK, I'll.

Have to check this out.

Yeah, I'm going to take this out.

But you know, with that too, like, you know, maybe not even learning in the more traditional sense or even like taking and learning other people's rifts.

I do feel like there is a huge like organic quality to the songwriting in this music.

Like, I don't feel like they're, you know, I think if people are looking for certain influences, they're going to find it.

But I feel like there is just like such an organic way to the four or five people that are, you know, playing on this record.

Do you, do you feel that Like I feel like there's such a just like almost like improvised quality to this record, almost.

Yeah.

I think that's because of mostly the two things that we mentioned.

That's the idea of a little bit.

You just you wake up, you start playing guitar, you start composing without any reference, kind of like drawing without a reference will always make the piece of bit more organic and just I think us struggling with anything digital not being the type of guitar pro bass establature learning musicians.

That's the the timbre of an instrument and how it actually sounds is way more important than how something is composed or constructed in theory.

If it sounds good, then it sounds good.

And yeah, if we don't like it, remove it.

You know, with with duality coming out like literally last year, like how how soon did you guys start writing the material after that record into doomed?

I mean, like it's been and then now it'll be maybe working on some new material.

You guys are just kind of.

Always mended.

There's always.

I don't even remember when.

That started it's yeah, doesn't stop, yeah.

Because I don't think like stopping is a good idea as a musician, you know?

I mean, like, you know, when I don't compose, I feel depressed because it's something you have to, to do it because it develops, you know, ears, eyes, body is everything moving, you know, when you compose.

So when I don't do it composing, like when I don't compose like regularly, I feel bad, you know?

So always there's something new, you know, but also with Duality, I think I learned this one, you know, because the process of that album, like especially like the song Duality wasn't easy.

And the first moment, the first time we played that song, like in a show, it wasn't like something really comfortable to play.

I mean, I always struggle with, you know, still now it's 16 minutes even.

Like every time when I play it, I fuck it up, you know?

But it's also challenging, you know, like you are playing something that every time you play it, you are learning something new from.

It I think it's a fun song.

He.

Likes it.

I don't like it anymore.

Yeah, Duality is, is a real challenge, like to play live and even like playing and singing some riffs.

It's it's, it's really like even stamina requiring sometimes.

On this record alone, I mean, your vocals are crazy.

Like, I feel like there are so many bands that maybe they have like another person who, you know, they can kind of fill out that high and low.

But for you to do both, like you, you have these highs that like kind of Pierce through, but then you have like these like guttural lows that kind of feel like the like the rock eating monster from the Neverending Story.

Like I, I was just so I loved it.

I mean, it adds so much texture to the record.

Like, do you have any favorite vocalist that you're pulling from or like, how did you learn to be able to do both?

And I yeah, I can't imagine replicating that on stage.

Yeah, for me, what I'm doing is inhale and like on the first album Deviant and a part of the self title, I was recording exhale and like, because inhale technique was always easy to me.

I was thinking all the time that this is the, you know, the shorter way and it's, it's like maybe a kind of cheating.

But then there was songs when I tried this because I needed longer screams and I have like a good technique with it.

This is where I started using inhale technique because I also could do it in higher pitch.

And yeah, since then I'm feeling comfortable with it.

Also like for playing, it's not as at least for me, it's not as conserving of energy like the I mean the exhale is not conserving of energy as inhaled from them.

I'd like just the thought of the inhale technique, like it like hurts me to even think, but like I know it's kind of like a thing that maybe like miss Moore and hell might might do.

I've heard them kind of like replicate that technique as well.

And I I think it comes great like your your opening of like unrecognized is like whoa, like the the takes takes some endurance for sure.

But you guys also share some some album artwork or credits with this record Alluvium from earlier this year.

Incredible.

Is it Kaitil?

Yeah, or Ketil.

Ketil.

Yeah, yeah, me.

Too.

I don't know, I just chat with him on Instagram and that's it.

Go like by e-mail.

Was that, I mean, the, the, the piece, the the album artwork is so like it makes me feel like the two people at the very bottom, like I feel so small and like insignificant when I look at it.

Was this a, was this a piece that existed?

Did he create it for the record?

Like how did you get connected with him?

Yeah, you know, with this album, we wanted to do something different because I think we we are thinking more in a very artistic vision, you know, So I was talking to the guys, let's let's do something different.

We don't need like painting, drawing or whatever, you know.

And actually I followed this artist like for for some time now and I do really like his word.

And then I started to Scroll down on this Instagram profile, like, yeah.

And then I found this.

So I found like a few pictures that we like and then we choose this one, you know, because it describes the music I didn't know and it fits very well.

It does 100%.

I feel like I've just been crushed by the weight of this kind of, like, mountain structure And, you know, Tajio, like, I know you're an incredible tattoo artist, Khalil.

I've seen you do some paintings in the past as well.

You know, how does, how does art influence what you do like or vice versa?

Like has, you know, a piece of art.

Yeah.

Has a piece of like art influence the song has music.

I'm sure you know, I draw a little bit myself.

I I feel like all the time I'm just kind of sketching things out to songs.

Like how does music and art influence each other in in your world?

Subconsciously, I guess, I mean, the most important thing from our choice also to choose this picture over any painting or artwork that we had before was the fact that it's real.

That was, yeah, the the big idea to make the shift.

Sorry, what was the question again?

I just how has a piece of art influenced a song before it's done?

You know, how does it like both of these different forms of art, like influence each other as far as maybe like in, you know, tattooing or just in defacement and other projects that you've worked in?

Well, I mean, you can put in certain logics that make sense together.

Yeah.

Maybe it ties back to the way Arif is constructed.

The the thing what yeah, makes it for me important is that something is readable, I guess, but not too readable.

I don't know if that makes sense, but no, that you can sing it or picture it in your head.

That is for me the most important thing for drawings, songs, riffs, solos, tattoos, I guess.

Yeah, yeah, Khalil, I've, I've seen some of your your paintings in the past.

Have you, has that been inspired by some of the the music that you've centered around some of your other?

You know, I love your ambient projects as well.

Like, you know, how do you feel like art and music kind of interact in your world?

The I don't know, man, I, I, I feel like I'd like to use everything in me, like, you know, I like to be creative.

So my drawing was just like mixing colours, you know, no specific techniques.

No, I'm not really expert in it when it comes to drawing, but yeah, I like to to, to be busy with myself, you know, with the ambient.

I think this kind of art matches together because it's like, you know, it's a very cinematic.

The the record itself, it feels like, like you said, like very cinematic.

It's a journey from, you know, start to finish.

It feels like it could have been written in in that way and the way it's laid out.

Do you, was it constructed in that way?

Was it, Did you start with the ambient piece and then kind of end with absent?

Well, no, the ambient was the last thing.

OK.

Because the ambient it's so simple to do, you know.

So yeah, I mean, I I did record like the first and the second like a moral and for loan I did record them like in like maximum 10 minutes and I sent them then the to tell Mia and then tell Mia she just like composed the focus for them.

But clouding was existed like since 2020 I think.

Oh, really?

OK.

Wow.

Were there any other pieces that like you know, Ahmed, were, were there any other ideas that have been floating around for several years or was it was most of it kind of constructed around the time of writing the record?

No, yeah, everything is new.

Yeah, yeah, it.

Was constructed.

Yeah, together when I was composing, yeah.

I love all of the, all of the ambience and the textures that you used.

I know you've been doing it for a while.

Are you using the, is it the old blood that, that, that reverb pedal?

I feel like I've I've seen you use it a couple times and I'm like, I got to get that thing.

It sounds so lush and fantastic.

Yeah.

Well, I was using this one for some time of course, but with the yeah, with the with the stuff that I did for don't actually I used like a program that no one use anymore.

Like do you know, get a rig?

I don't.

I don't think so.

What is it?

No one is using this this this program anymore.

I.

Know.

It's it's like, you know, it's like a plug in but not really plug in.

It has like.

Cheap plug in.

Yeah, no one using this this app and actually there is a crazy sounds you can build there man.

You can do whatever you want, you know, So you can I just like, you know, I have the skill now.

I can do really crazy stuff with that program.

Was that was there outside of that, were you experimenting with other techniques or sounds Like I can remember at least one point, maybe during some of your ambient recordings you were using like a like an old vinyl of a World War Two plane or something like that.

I was like, that's crazy.

And it's like all just chained in there.

Exactly.

And then, yeah, I connected the the record player and then he played the vinyl and then he just like, you know, manipulated the pedals, you know, yes.

Yeah, that's awesome.

I mean, it's simple.

I mean, it's something you everyone can, can do, you know?

But yeah, I don't feel like special about it because I feel like I still need to learn a lot and they still like, I can like give better and better every time, you know?

I feel that I, I guess like when I look at, you know, all of these like cables and pieces of equipment, you know, connected together, it feels like I don't know how you would do like I, I'll like, I've seen full of hell several times and I look at Dylan's board and I'm like, how the fuck are we doing that?

Like, how are we getting these like absolutely crazy sounds out of here.

But you know, I, I again, I'm sure it's the same way.

You're just getting in there and and actually doing it and finding what works, I guess.

Yeah, but it's a skill, you know, if you like.

I had to learn.

Yeah, yeah, I have to learn.

It's not easy, you know?

Now I'm using like the Quad Cortex, the neural GSP machine.

Oh, OK.

Yeah, to be honest, like I miss using analog pedals.

Because I have a couple of analog pedals chained in there.

Yeah, exactly.

But but like, you know, especially if you make ambient with the analog pedals, it's like cool, I think way cooler than using like a digital platform.

Yeah, because then you feel what you are doing actually like you can't touch.

And that's the best thing about like analog.

As far as like recording this record goes, it sounds like you guys are like doing some of it in your own space and then at.

This place this.

Yeah, OK.

Yeah.

Are you sending it to Brendan and then or Gabrielle?

And how does, how did that process work?

I know you guys have worked on previous records together, but you know what makes those two guys like perfect collaborators for this record?

The fact that they are doing most of the same kind of music, I mean, also like when I listen to Convulsing, it's also like really close to whatever I'm thinking of music or something like that.

This is really an enjoyable music and really, really beautiful music that Brendan is making.

And I was really happy when I knew that he's taking care of the sound and the album.

And also like with Gabriela, it's, it's also the same cosmic artifacts.

And it's really like really nice to have people also work on music that they can be passionate about and understanding of it doing the same, almost like the same.

I don't know how to call it like direction or like somehow like there's something in common that's not describable, but also like, it's, it's there.

I mean, it's important to have like, you know, for sure like minded folks and obviously, you know, you, you trust them too, but they're, you know, expertise on this.

I mean, it sounds great.

I mean, it is like at times, like I feel very claustrophobic and you know, in some aspects of this record, but there exists like a clarity throughout it.

Like I can hear everything.

And so I, I, you know, I would attest that to the just their engineering and mixing work because it does like, you know, I feel like there are definitely records I've listened to where, you know, you have all of these different layers and textures and you kind of get lost.

And it's just like, this just sounds like a wall of shit.

But I feel like this record, I can, I can pick out everything.

I can hear it.

And so, yeah, I, I would under Brendan and Gabriella's work.

Fucking incredible on that.

One of the definitely one of the other standout parts of this record too.

Is is it Delnia?

Delnia.

I heard like vocals throughout these like interludes are like they're almost sounds like AI don't know, like a ghost or something.

It's so like it's very haunting when you like hear it and it's just kind of phases in and out.

How did you get connected with her?

Her performance is wonderful.

Yeah, Delania.

I got to know her because of her boyfriend.

Also, he's like a music producer, so he does like hip hop and stuff.

And yeah, we wanted to do something together for some time, you know, but we never had the chance.

And because she has like, I feel like the music that I did with her matches, you know, her character, her personality.

She's not like everyone, you know?

She's like very doomy, you know, even if you see her, like she has that vibe.

And then I said, like, you let's do something together, you know, and just like, release it because I think she did work with some people.

But I mean, yeah, I see her like, differently and I see her like, she needs something special.

That's why I invited her, you know?

Yeah.

And then it's under the files and after like 2 days they sent me the files.

And then you just tend to Brendan and that's it.

Is she is she locally based where you are?

Yes, she's she's based in in the Netherlands, Yes.

Gotcha.

And you know, I know everybody's kind of scattered.

I'm sure you'd ask this a lot, you know, like, was it, I feel like you probably have a system now with people being in kind of different locations.

Was there any hurdles to this record as far as like, you know, sending ideas back and forth, recording the album, recording the parts with people being, you know, located in Amsterdam.

I, I believe some people are located in Italy.

Were there any challenges to that?

Yeah, me and that's you.

We meet often.

So like everything, especially like the last two records I did it with.

That's you.

So he's involved in everything, you know, the process, recording and everything.

So we meet and be discussing everything.

So when we finished, yeah, that's when we finished everything.

We just like share it with other guys and then they have to do their own thing, you know?

Then we get drum set demos sent back and forth, back and forth until it's nice.

And then we just tell the guys to record and it's always perfect.

And then Ahmed will come here and we will sit down together to, yeah, kind of write out for him to write out the bass parts on the spot and just have like a week of recording and drilling and the vocals.

That's something that we just leave up to Ahmed, I guess, that we don't.

And last time I didn't hear any vocals until the record was released.

Done and mixed and released and it was fine.

It was perfect I guess.

Yeah, you're doing a lot of those bass parts on the spot.

Some of the parts because also like I do what I can to like write my own baselines and stuff like that.

But in the end we sit together and we listen.

And if something needs to to be changed, like it's mostly also because Claudios and and, and Mark are living in Italy.

So it's hard to have them there just for a recording session.

But most of the time, like I do like ideas and then we talk about things and of course like I am not most of the time going to record and doing everything like like too quick or something like that.

So there is also this space for listening.

And also like for example on Duality, Tedzio recorded also some parts where he thought like his ideas were better.

And yes, and I like them this way.

For example, the end part of Scabulus.

These are Tedzio's baselines and also some parts of.

Burden.

Pardon, yeah, like in the morning.

These are also like and he was awesome on bass and that's why it's cool like like sitting with with a with an extra opinion and an extra ear for it to record.

So I come like prepared.

But also there are ideas that can be during the recording not fitting or need to be changed because simply there's something better even if they fit.

So yeah, this is also how how it works sometimes.

Yeah, I mean, like I I think of there's that base break and portrait that like it, it's like absolutely disgusting and and filthy and like, I mean that song in general, I think it does what a lot of great records do in that like you get kind of like everything that you're going to hear on the rest of the album, but like when that just pops in and you get like that just like grating tone so good also.

Like it took me a while to come up with that because I had to work with the notes that Khalil and Ted you are playing and just taking those notes and like trying to loop them in chords or something.

That took like maybe a very long time until I come up with the idea like that like that it fits.

Yeah.

And it's also like mostly like sitting here in front of this computer and trying to figure out what what just has been sent to me and or working with it.

Yeah.

And then like where I'm living, I'm living in like lives like Germany.

So it's like if everything goes well with the train, I'm 8 hours away.

But that's that's ideal.

So like maybe 10 hours minimum to get there and then like we start playing recording.

Yeah.

And yeah, this is probably the the challenge that we have because we don't, we don't rehearse almost like even before tours, we get like maybe a day or two for, for rehearsing and we got to work with whatever we have.

And yeah, this is the what I meant with the challenge is the, the distance, you know, like Italy, Germany, Netherlands.

So like.

That's dedication and you know it would lesser bands would break up over something like that.

I feel like that mean 10 hours is a lot.

I mean as far as the tone goes, are you guys still?

I feel like I see so many like BC Rich guitars with this band all the time.

Iron Bird, Mockingbird.

What do you guys what do you guys been using?

What do you guys been digging?

What, what, what?

What did we use on Doomed?

Well, Khalil arranged at some point.

Really, really nice dream guitar for me.

Kind of.

It's BC rich vintage Japanese Mockingbird.

Damn.

With a natural finish with the skunk stripe, Maple center, mahogany wings, I think.

But it has a bolt on neck.

And I just modded the absolute crap out of it.

And it's been that one and Ibanez that I've modded the old one with a single pick up that Khalil is using right now.

And I think all the other albums were recorded on the same Iron Bird.

Yeah.

Where is that?

Yeah, yeah, Japanese one.

And we did have a very nice bass also also.

From BC, yeah.

From BC, yeah.

With the doom we recorded with the American.

No, we recorded the Japanese war.

Yeah, but but but.

It's a warlock, yes, but it has like weird sound, man, because it doesn't sound like as as like, you know, a cheap instrument.

Extremely.

Clanky though.

Yeah, yeah, it's very nasty and very loud and Ahmed has like a.

American.

American Mochenberg yeah.

And I use I use the Ibanez because, you know, that I have issues with my arm and and actually the Ebenez is like tattoos guitar.

And he gave it to me.

He gave it to me because he thought that, yeah, he thought that I can really play comfortable because I struggle a lot with my arm, you know?

I've seen you like like a Strat, that's Jackson where there's AI always get a kick out of when is there like woods by you?

There's like wooded area.

You're just out in the woods just kind of making some sounds, man.

I love it.

Yeah, sure.

All really broke the the one with the Strat.

It's like few few weeks ago, yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

This.

Is like from, nevertheless the new project.

Oh yeah, how is that going?

Yeah, we did record man 11 songs.

11.

Songs, yeah, but it's like emu screamu black.

Like, yeah, I mean, yeah.

Because, you know, I saw Thomas Eric live.

OK.

The guy from the fall of Troy.

Gotcha.

OK, gotcha.

Bro that guy is a beast.

That guy, it's like my everything now and then, yes, I said, OK, I need to learn this.

And then, yeah, I just, like, started to listen to his music a lot, you know?

And then, yeah, I found myself like, writing.

I think I remember like a composite in soaps in one day.

Wow, that's awesome.

Yeah, I said, Ahmed, let's do something with this.

I showed Ahmed ideas and then we dislike them.

And he said, OK, now let's let's, let's record.

It doesn't surprise me that you'd be into that.

Like when I, I was reading some of your old interviews and you mentioned the number 12 looks like, just like you and I'm like some of the wonkiest, like craziest shit.

And I, I definitely hear some of that on here as well.

But yeah, how are you going to like implement some of these influences into this new project?

I'm very excited for it.

To be honest, I think the only thing that I listen now because normally I don't listen to metal music anymore, you know, I got fed up with it.

Especially like the black metal definitely that sounds the same to my ears.

So I have like keyboard background, jazz, whatever, ambient mostly.

But you know, me and that man, we were friends since like really kids.

And Ahmed, he showed me like math corps.

But that time I never liked it and I hated it.

Like fuck this shit, you know?

No math, no nothing.

Black metal face.

Yeah, it was very like I was poser.

I know like we're very conservative.

Yeah, like like metal and shit, you know, so and recently, like the past three years, I'm getting into it.

That's why you feel like the change in defacement because of the math core elements then Oh shit, I'm listening to only math core now.

Hardcore punk.

This is like also, you know, I when I, when I grow up, I grew up with Sigma Core, Limp Basket and stuff.

I need this element now, you know, And this is what I listen.

This is what I feel.

I think that's the same.

Everyone in the band love this shit.

It's a fucked up.

Thing.

Exactly, but we forgot about it.

I don't know man, but now we feel like we need this shit.

I feel like it's always kind of been there at some point.

I heard something about some research that said that the music that you enjoy the most when you're 13 years old, it's defines in the back of your head what you consider to be good.

And especially on Duality, we were fucking around a lot with some shoegaze bass leaves with a lot of reverb in front of the amp and pitch shifters.

At least that's what we thought.

And then somebody called, I think alert.

The guy that helped us react, he called one part that we had a certain kind of lead on.

He called it the Slipknot part.

And that's when I realized this is absolutely not Sugar's base, it's Slipknot base.

Which makes sense that my 13 year old brain is still like in there I guess.

I think also our character built because of this music, you know, I mean, like, yeah, I grew up listening to corn Stick No out and shit like that because I am like born in the 91.

So my youth was completely madness, just like listening to this kind of shit.

I discovered the black metal really late, you know, also the metal and stuff like that.

But man, fuck black mother fuck me.

Like, yeah, I mean, I still listen to it, but I try to not really give a shit about it anymore because I don't know, man.

It's a very silly music.

I can say, you know, sorry and.

And yeah, just like I feel different now.

I feel like, yeah, OK, my life is shit.

I was thinking my life is shit.

But when I started listening to the like the new metal stuff, I felt like, oh shit, I had very good youth.

And I do really, yeah, enjoy my life now because I'm just listening to this kind of stuff.

And Matt Gore, it's like a freedom for me.

You know, if you can play this shit, it means that you are a musician.

Because the the guitar player, I don't remember his name, like from the number 12, looks like you.

I think he studied jazz or something.

The guy, he does crazy stuff.

And also the Dillinger.

Oh, is it Ben?

Ben Wineman, yeah.

That guy is like, he's phrasing like the jazzy stuff, man, and then goes back to the madness and we need this because you don't have this anymore now and we need it.

Yeah, it's very liberating.

I I would agree.

I mean, I, I came up not to interject myself here for a second, but I, I, you know, I was very into like old heavy metal and thrash metal.

And then through the, the guys on this show that, you know, I've known them since I was like 19, they introduced me to like coalesce and botch and these arms are snakes.

And like how freeing some of that stuff is.

It's like there's, there's endless possibilities to this shit.

It doesn't matter.

Like it's crazy.

And you can be as as creative as you want with it.

Like this is also something about the number 12 looks like you, for example.

It's that you have even different genres.

And in one song it did like that there are changes that would never occur to you in the the 1st place, like how are they playing?

And also Botch has this kind of, I don't know, in your face sound and like kind of singing and guitars, but still also like really creative and different.

Yeah.

That this kind of this kind of music is really interesting, like in terms of composing and not just, you know, like putting a couple of riffs together or something just technical for the sake of being technical.

It's it's never boring also for me.

Yeah, I agree.

It's it's kind of almost like, and I, you know, not to not to case your ass too much, but like I listened to this record and I, I kind of in in a similar way to those other records.

It's it's really like, where is this going?

Like where is this going to end up?

It keeps you involved.

It keeps you just constantly listening and guessing.

Like, you know, there are moments on on doomed where I'm like this, this could fall apart at any minute, but you guys stick the landing every time.

And I you know, I, I find that in botch, I find that in these arms are snakes.

It's like, what?

What's going on?

How, where, where's this going to go?

I love it.

I love the floor.

Man, yeah, you asked, you also asked Ted CEO about like the connection that could be between art and music or tattoos or stuff like that.

And the moment we started playing with Ted CEO and we were just chilling at his place and he gets this vinyl from Behold the Octopus and starts playing Yeah instead and starts playing this music.

And I didn't see what he put in, but I recognized it.

And I'm like, yeah, I never had tattoos in my life, but I would trust you with a tattoo.

And this was like my, my first and second and only tattoos that I have from him.

And at some point I was trying to convince him to make me a skull grid tattoo from Yeah.

Because it's like, yeah, I trust, I trust your vision.

If, if, if you're listening to the same stuff, then yeah, I would love to and I would trust you with this.

And that's why I, like you, had to come back a bit, a bit of a late comeback, but back then I didn't have the chance to comment on that.

Have you tattooed anyone else in the van?

Yeah, yeah.

1, two.

I didn't do that.

No, 1-2, yeah.

3 three, yeah.

So there is like a small baby face.

Have you seen that face?

I I don't think so.

He has like a weird face, man that I love that guy.

I don't know.

He has like you.

Want the baby?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I want that kid.

He has like a weird baby that he drove.

I mean, if you see him, yeah, we would love him, man.

It's just like ugly.

And I feel very pissed he has.

Like a one time that he wants his child to look like kind of fun, but I see it as a compliment.

It's like.

Very pissed, you know, kind or kid.

I love that there was one I saw that you did it was like the nails wolf, but you'd like did your own spin on it.

Oh that was awesome.

Yeah, that was funny as how we have like a whole the nails wolf has been kind of a meme in my circle of friends, but it was really cool to get the opportunity to do that.

I do really dig nails still.

Though Oh yeah I love the the new record was great.

Is there just a random question?

Is there an overrated tattoo that people tend to get when they come see you or in your shop?

Oh, of course I.

Work in Amsterdam, I get work first.

So yeah, there is a bunch of them, but I don't want to shit on my clients too much.

I love everything one of them and if they're happy with what they get, I would do it with love for them.

I appreciate that.

That's good.

One other thing I wanted to ask too is you have two drummers on this record, Mark and Claudio.

What is what was like kind of the reason behind this?

Was it geographical?

Was it, I mean, it doesn't, I don't think anything clashes style wise.

So it feels like cohesive all the way through.

But you know, the inclusion of two drummers.

I have to ask like you know what the reason behind that?

You know, when I moved to the Netherlands, of course, it's a new country, new life.

I want to make friends, you know, and actually never worked.

And OK, I started to look for musicians that they wanted to play with me, and I couldn't find three years.

I'm just looking for drammers.

So yeah.

And then I just like, randomly, I started, like, send messages through Facebook.

Too many drammers, just like, randomly Germany, whatever, you know, not in the Netherlands.

And then the only one who answered me, Mark, I just, like, explained to him the situation.

They said like, yeah, the music.

I would like to, you know, he never charged anything, by the way.

He never asked for money or something.

So he said, OK, send me your music.

And then, oh, shit, that guy is serious.

Then me and Ahmed, we went to meet him in Italy.

And then this is was like in 2017.

Since then, when we just like, work together.

I mean, like, I feel comfortable with him because he's very polite, respectful.

You know, this guy is like really sweet.

And especially like we are from Libya and we are different, you know, like North African, full of aggression and stuff, you know, and you know, also like Italy and Libya, they have like a lot of conflict, conflicts, the history thing.

But with Mark, we never felt anything, man.

This guy is quite very sweet man, really so.

And I have his like a friendship with him like since 2017 till now.

And yeah, I don't think that I can replace him by another drama.

So let's say, yeah, he's part of the band.

He does his job, you know, in short time.

And you know that he recorded like doomed in 30 minutes.

Oh really?

That's bonkers.

Like the really the name Bestia as well earned.

And The thing is like Mark is also like, despite of how he's playing and how really good he is, he's also a really down to earth person.

Like he doesn't have this arrogance or stuff like that.

And then The funny thing is like the time we met him, Khalil and I, we were planning to record the second album for Death Crush.

This is the black metal band that we used to have before.

And we had like the feeling, at least from my point of view, or how I remember this period, we had the feeling that we're still playing the same thing that we played in the first album.

And then like Deviant came out of this and since then, yeah, like also playing with Mark, even the the the feeling was like something that we learned from that was also a transition for us that we had like this really good musician, but also like really humble, human and really friendly guy.

And yeah, but we still didn't answer your question about like how it was because Mark for some reasons could not play rehearsals all the time and live live and be be on tour.

He he's like, he's got also other things going in life that are private for him.

I I don't think I can talk about them.

But yeah, we were playing once also with Mark live.

It was through Andrea from a cult booking and he was playing with his band and we played in Chipino the 1st and at this time also Claudia was playing and he was like he's also a really great drummer and like right now he's also a friend of ours and he's like the the guy we found to play live with us.

But like after a while he's also a part of the band.

And that's how it came like to to be included because also Claudia was also a really awesome drummer and an awesome human also.

And we're always happy to meet with him, like not only for just like banned reasons or stuff like that.

We have a really all of us.

We have a really good connection, communication with each other.

He is the highlight of every tour.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And Claudio Claudio is the highlight of every tour.

I remember I sent him a message and I asked him like, hey man, do you want to play for defacement?

And he couldn't believe because, like, why I do have ask someone who's like, you know, not living in the Netherlands.

So I just accepted into a man.

I like your energy.

And everyone in the band, they said, like, you are cool and actually me and that's you.

You know, we had like, a chat with him.

Like, yeah, when we were at the Chipino Fist, we did like him a lot.

Like, yeah, I told the man, you are a beast.

And he's very young, you know, he's like 20.

Three years old, but.

Yeah, he's very young, but yeah, he's just like, you know, love what he's doing.

And I think defacement also without Claudia is not defacement anymore, man.

I think like.

This point, yeah.

Yeah, it's like, you know, defacement is, is just like, you know, people that yeah, for me, I'm very sensitive and I know I need also a lot of respect.

So the way how I did with the friend, with like with the members, yeah, we just like respect each other.

And I don't think I will find another member set, you know, add to defacement.

I mean, we, we are quite fine.

We are quite enough, you know, because we love each other.

We respect each other.

The most important thing.

Yeah.

And the the chemistry, the connection that we have, it will never happen again.

That's why we have the music is going on.

I mean, like, yeah, we have new albums soon.

I mean, not really soon, but we need to take it a bit slow.

Sometimes that's good.

Yeah, because like we have a lot of material.

That's why I started with the never last, OK to do something new, you know, keep myself busy.

Not just like defacement, because if I want to write music for defacement, I will never stop, But also the process of writing, you know, caused me a lot of stress.

And also there is weird thing when I, when I write trips, for example, I remember we don't I had wrote everything, let's say for in one week, but that week, no shower, no eating, no brushing teeth, I smell like shit, ice tank and everything.

But this is like, you know, if I didn't do that, that I would never like make the music.

As you mentioned, you're working on material for the next record.

Very excited to hear that when it comes out.

Just in general though, like, you know, is there anything, you know, we're kind of nearing the end of the year looking ahead to next year.

I, I want people to sit and enjoy this record and, and really like all the way through.

But is there anything that you hope to accomplish in next year, whether in music and life?

Like what what's going on?

What do you guys feel like?

I feel like you can't be stopped.

I don't know.

I'm very interested to hear what you guys do next.

When you go to the list, well, two or more would be nice.

We have hopefully something cool planned at the end of next year.

Do a couple of shows in the spring, vacations, new projects, plural.

And yeah, we'll see when the new material is done and what will happen with it.

I mean, we've both been sitting down with other projects.

They got the never last thing.

We listened to it today actually.

And like he said, it was going to be a bit more harsh than he expected.

Maybe on the level of defencement, maybe the next level.

And then we looked at what we recorded a few years ago, and it's like, this is a bit more harsh than the Never Less stuff.

Yeah.

It's a defacement song.

Yeah.

Yeah, pretty much.

It's a great, I think like there's.

Going to be a lot of work learning that one.

Yeah, but I think like for the fifth album, we want to go a different game, the direction to be honest.

Like, yeah, we don't want to do the same thing.

If you listen to the whole discography to now, every time, every every album is different.

With this time we are going also maybe we need to add large elements because they do really love sludge like slow riffs and you know we need a lot of groove that I miss also and I feel like our music is not aggressive enough.

So that's why we wanted to to have it like more.

Impressive.

Yeah.

For.

Sure.

Yeah, You know, one time I was listening.

I was like drinking with him, so.

Yeah, no, it's beautiful.

Ahmed is always saying, like the way the reason that defencement is not that popular in Germany is because Germans need music that they can drink with and when.

Yeah, I have the cassette, yeah.

Yeah.

And we were listening to some cassettes and drinking to celebrate the release of Duned a while back.

Having some some hard spirits I guess drinking them a bit too fast.

Yeah, it's like, I don't know, whiskey.

I think Italian Brandy drank by Middle Eastern people the way we drink is a bit different from our most people drink.

I was going to.

I was going to ask what kind of what kind of drinking or like spirit would represent defacement the most, but you know, like I.

There is none.

There is no Holy Spirit that represents defacement.

No.

Yeah, maybe.

No.

I don't know.

Maybe.

OK, Yeah.

Well, you know, I don't, I don't want to.

I appreciate you.

You spent so much time with me talking about this record and I, I really appreciated getting to know you guys more.

One thing we kind of do at the end of each episode is just maybe share some things we've been listening to some things that you think people should check out.

Could be anything heavy.

Non, I know we're kind of coming to the close of the year.

Is there any favorites from this year that you like?

I I'd love to hear what you guys have been checking out.

Well, yeah, I have been listening to life.

It's a scream of hardcore.

No, not really.

Yeah, it's like a black metal, but too gazy and stuff.

That's what mostly I listen.

I was checking.

I mean like, yeah, of course.

The fall of Troy because Ahmed Bumble me links.

Listen, watch this, this cool stuff.

Yeah And they had those two periods that they listen to Gaza a lot.

I think you would have.

Yeah, you will find out in the next, in the next record.

Man, I think I'm getting inspired a lot by the the aggression.

Gaza, Gaza, Yeah, Gaza coach, stuff like that.

Yeah, cult leader as well.

Yep, big fan.

It's like, do you know how to?

Yeah, actually they have.

They have a very weird way of like playing.

Yes.

Yeah, because I just watched like a lot of videos and OK, their technique is different than other people.

We, we sat down with them a couple weeks back and talked about their, their debut.

And yeah, when I was I, I was kind of getting into more underground music when when that band formed and I got to see one of their early tours and it, it blew my mind.

It was not like anything I'd heard before.

Yeah, I know what you've been listening to.

I've been, I think like I've been back to a bit of nostalgic times, like mostly math core stuff like I don't know, Rolo Thomasy and the Locust and just trying trying to remember things that I used to listen to back then and then like listening to albums from before or check out if some bands are still playing at the moment.

I don't know like expectorated sequence.

No machine.

Norman Yeah.

Like sometimes I have like a day when I'm just in a rabbit's hole, like listening to these stuff I heard back then and it's hard to remember everything.

But yeah, for today and yesterday, what I heard the most was the I think they were three albums from These Arms Are Snakes.

They're also like they they're also they have this weirdness, like not not in the same direction of watch, not as chaotic, but they have this weirdness and they're more kind of like how to how to call it like a friendlier sound and watch, but still still still weird, like the music.

Yes, yeah, I maybe, yeah, maybe not as abrasive or, but like, still, like, not like it's not radio music, you know what I mean?

It's still like, weird as shit.

Tedjia, what have you been listening to?

Well I've recently scored a re release or just a collection of old material by a band called Endless Dismal Mon from Japan which has been on heavy rotation over here.

Kind of rediscovered kickback.

I heard they're playing live again, which incredibly enthusiastic about.

It's pretty much my favorite hardcore band, and while at home I have to work.

When we're cooking, we always listen to the same cassettes of the Twin Peaks, Fire Walk with Me sound.

Just some really cool jazz tunes.

Yeah, the A side, at least the A side, is repeated a lot in this House.

Perfect.

I love it.

I do want to mention one I I in kind of preparing preparing for this interview, I checked out Mark's project continuum of Zul, that new record for a Torre.

I'm sorry if I mispronounced that, but it's like Mark.

And then is it Mateo of ad nauseam?

Like I I was going to listen to that record again.

It's fucking incredible.

But yeah, loved it.

It's just a fantastic record.

He's, I mean, kills it on this record, drumming wise, kills it on that record.

And yeah, just to have two in one year, but.

There was also insane man.

Yeah, oh, so many great riffs.

Unreal.

Yeah, of.

Course, yeah.

Well, guys, I can't thank you enough.

You know, congratulations on the record.

I, I, I'm in love with it.

Thank you.

It's so nice to meet all of you.

I can't wait to see what you guys do next.

You can follow this show for any updates of roof worship pod, blah blah blah.

It's in the thing below.

But for myself, for Ahmed, for Tadzio, for Khalil, it's riff worship.

We'll be back next week with something else.

See ya.

Thanks.

Bye.

Thanks SO.

Much.

I'll see you.