Our first story deals with a subculture of heavy metal music that some feel is sending a dangerous message to your kids.

The forces of evil on the dark side of devil, right?

And I want to talk tonight about the devil and demons and witches and Wizards.

And we just mix it up with hardcore and aggression and come out with something.

We face an original sound, loud, fast, heavy.

You know, Well, what do you got?

What do you got?

You're listening to Riff Worship, the podcast that attempts to answer the age-old question, what makes a riff?

Why do we care about riffs?

Talking about albums featuring our favorite riffs?

Talking to people who love riffs.

I'm one of your hosts, Austin Paulson.

With me, as always, is the great Bald Hope, the great Baldini.

Dylan Adams Dylan, How are you?

Great, doing great.

We're joined by an old friend, an Owen here who you'll introduce shortly, but really excited about this guest we have today.

I will say yes.

Representing the great nation of Australia, our old friend, writer, podcast host extraordinaire.

You might have heard him and his Co host Paige on their wonderful program The Pitch of Discontent.

You may have heard him on our previous episode covering on Earth's Three in the Eyes of Fire.

Back with us again, Owen Morrowitz, how are you?

I'm good boys.

Thank you so much for having me back on the show.

I didn't think I would get the call up, you know, off the bench second time.

But here, here we are excited to make it.

I'm calling in once again from the future.

So I I hope that's enough for everyone tuning in.

But yeah, thanks for having me.

Yeah, man, how's how's dad life?

Congratulations again.

That's that's awesome.

Yeah, I guess for for people who might not know, we had a baby girl in October.

So I'm in dad mode.

I'm responsible for changing lots of diapers while my wife and illustrious Co host is responsible for feeding said child.

But yeah, man, I don't know.

We're we're pushing through sleep deprivation and I'm here.

What can I say?

Hey, it's the same for me and Dyl.

That's all I.

Understand Dylan's the baby of the show, correct?

By appearance only.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

As Dylan mentioned, we have a very, very special guest with us today.

We did that episode on Three in the Eyes of Fire, covering the history of Unearth and that record.

It was a great time.

And we have one of the people who made that fucking record with us today coming in from the East Coast.

None other than Mr.

Trevor Phipps.

How are you?

Oh.

Well, thanks.

Thanks for having me, gentlemen.

It's it's a pleasure to have you.

How was Tour?

Yeah, it was great.

Yeah, we were doing a a celebration mini tour.

A trader was doing a tour for the Curse.

Our records came out the same date, no force.

They invited us to to do the oncoming storm.

And so we did.

We did 8 shows and every show was packed.

High energy.

So it's just good to have one more tour before the end of the year.

Oh yeah?

How was that?

You did a hometown show too, correct?

Yeah, played in Worcester.

That's basically our, our home venue, even though we're not from Worcester or from the North Shore, but we've played there got to be over 40 Times Now over the past 27 years.

So it's, it's definitely our our home venue.

That's crazy.

I know that stage very well.

Yeah, I bet.

So, you know, obviously in doing an episode on one of your records, there's only so much that, you know, based on like old articles and some of the research that we did, you know, we're we're only human.

There's only so much we can get right.

Did you notice anything in particular that stood out?

Was there anything that, you know, maybe we got wrong?

I'd love to hear.

Maybe you're like first impressions of like listening to the episode, which again, I really appreciate you taking the time to do that.

I remember listening to it and being kind of surprised by how much you guys knew because I know a lot was on our DVD, but you know, you guys pieced together other pieces of information from other interviews or clips on the Internet.

So it was, it was pretty much all there.

I know there's some things that was I wanted to answer, but I'd have to re review.

But everything was very, very close.

So it was good to relive that record through your podcast actually.

So it kind of brought me back to those, those, those days in Seattle doing that record.

Oh.

Yeah.

I just wanted to say Trevor like doing episodes on on on other people's music and like, especially not being a musician myself, I always feel this like twiggling sense of like, are they actually going to listen to it?

And there's like an apprehension that comes about and like talking about someone else's art and then having them like listen to you kind of analyze it and dissect it.

So I wanted to kind of ask Austin and Dylan did.

What was it like when you found out that Trevor actually listened to the episode?

Oh, it was great.

I mean, it also kind of makes you like my my butt hole clutching up a little bit like, oh, did I did I get everything right?

Did I say something stupid, which I definitely have before.

So it was very it was very nice to that it was received OK.

So that that I appreciated that.

Yeah, I just think it's awesome.

Like I, I, I was so stoked and like, blown away to find out that that Trevor actually listened to it, that he thought it was good and that we didn't fuck anything major.

So yeah, right.

Crazy when I cut you off.

No, it's usually just like it's flattering at first, right?

It's like, holy shit, you know, some not only do we have people that actually enjoy listening to us, but the the individuals that created the art that we're discussing about or having a conversation about are listening and paying attention and then say they enjoy it is a big thing.

And then, you know, kind of to go along with what Austin said, it's like, fuck, hopefully I didn't put my foot in my mouth, but at that point I've always taken the mindset of fuck, I said it, it, it's out there.

I can't change it.

Like just roll, roll with the fucking punches.

So it's it's flattering overall.

One thing that we discussed in that episode, you know, Owen had written a chapter on the breakdown.

We talk about riffs a lot, obviously on our show.

Trevor being someone who has been involved in, you know, aggressive extreme music for for this long.

What to you makes a Rif?

What do you look for in a Rif?

What do you look for in a breakdown?

What makes a breakdown?

I'm just so curious, like having written music and listen to the music, this type of music for this long, how would you define something like that?

I mean generally breakdowns it's it's pretty easy formula.

It's basically just the chug making it tribal.

But if you make it interesting, you know, throw a little bit off time in there, that's when it gets unique.

That's how you kind of set yourself apart.

So, you know, I think the early days of us listening to events like my sugar, how it didn't really work his way into our writing so much, but just the kind of off time stuff made it.

Let's make this just break down a little bit more than just, you know, so just mixed up a bit makes it a bit more appealing.

But riffs, man, this there's a whole lot you can paint with a riff, you know, as long as it's I can't really say exactly what I'm looking for because I can like rock riffs.

I can like I can like a country riff, you know, but it just has to be pleasing.

You know, you hear it and like, you like the sounds.

And that's that's where it buzz comes from.

You know, he he's a self-taught guy.

He didn't, he didn't get taught, you know, all the technical jargon, but he writes the majority of our riffs and he just writes what he thinks sounds good.

And he just gets better and better at, you know, training himself on the, on the scales and the fret board, you know, make music that we like to hear.

Trevor, you mentioned before coming off some dates with Atreyu and revisiting the material from the oncoming Storm, which was out in 2004.

So that record is like 21 years old, you know, old enough to drink.

I wanted to, I wanted to kind of ask you on this idea of like breakdowns having to be unique and and surprising in revisiting material from that record for that set.

Are there parts of songs or maybe entire songs that you revisit now in 2025 and you're like, fuck, I can't believe we did that or I don't remember it being that that crazy.

Like, is there stuff on like, an older record that continues to surprise you?

Usually when we put out a record, we give as many songs a shot live as we think might take.

Because of course you love all the songs that you wrote for the record.

And when you're done, you're in love with the whole thing.

But then you kind of test each song with with with your audience.

And then the songs stick the most, you play the most.

And then over time, you can't forget how to even play some songs.

So to revisit certain songs like Predetermined Sky, a lot of purified false idols songs we almost never play felt great.

And I think the song for me that really stood out is Predetermined Sky that for some reason felt like it it connected even more today than it did when when we wrote it, especially the guitar part was the end.

It just creates kind of an ambiance.

You know, I I leave the stage and guitar players get up and they do their thing and it kind of it builds the crowd.

The Toms are going with Mike.

Then I come out and everything kind of comes together and it, it got an emotional response from the crowd.

And also like our guys knows we played it differently.

We we played it with more passion than I think when we wrote it.

So I think that song was kind of the winner of this tour.

Yeah, that's awesome.

There's a lot.

Of Unearthed questions I want to ask you today, and they're going to tie into our topic of discussion.

But we asked you to, you know, if you wanted to talk about a record today, and out of all the records you could have picked, out of all the bands you could have picked, you chose Destroy the Machines, the debut album from Earth Crisis.

And I'd have to know, how does Earth Crisis fit into your trajectory as a vocalist?

Where did you first discover them?

Why this record?

Out of all the records you could have picked, why did you pick this debut?

I think it's an underrated record, for one.

I know it's widely celebrated, but I don't think it's, I don't think it's celebrated enough.

I think an e-mail I compared to Laura the Soul by At the Gates.

It started something at that time, you know, because bands, bands of my era, we grew up mostly listening to thrash.

That was our there was an intro to the world.

We thrashed and we kind of went backwards and got Sabbath.

Of course we all knew Ozzy, but you know, Ozzy was popular in the 80s and as we backtrack and got got Sabbath and so we kind of kind of we started to build our, our whole knowledge of metal, but then we kind of got sick of the solo because you have to recall that back then glam was a huge thing.

And you know, the solo was just, it was just over was overdone.

And like, man, I wish we had music like this, like like Pantera, you know, you know, but without the solos.

And sure enough, here we go.

There's there's like earth crisis come up.

It's like, wow, it's, it's heavy as hell and there's no, there's no flamboyant guitar work.

You know, it's the sick riff, sick leads, you know, very catchy breakdowns and, you know, parching you can sing along to.

So that they came, they came to me in the early 90s.

It was the the Firestorm EP.

I had the cassette tape and you know, I had the little, little tiny CD.

That's what I had.

I had the cassette tape of Destroy the Machines and that was a big, a big intro.

Even my first, my first band, even though we weren't straight edge, I didn't drink growing up at all because it was focused on sports.

But I never claimed straight edge.

But we covered Firestorm and a couple of shows in high school.

So that's, that's how long that record went out.

And yeah, big, big influence me.

So I think he, you know, Carl's voice really found his way into my style as well.

I like his approach.

I'll even kind of borrow some of his.

I'm not sure if I haven't seen him do it recently, but we, we play a bunch of them over the years.

And as I think he does, he kind of taps his diaphragm during certain parts and kind of does this.

And, and I'm not sure if you've seen it, he does this.

I've borrowed that over the years as now as part of my moves because I, I liked it kind of helps me keep, keep time on certain parts.

And yeah, I'd say he's a huge influence on me.

Before we move on, Trevor, you mentioned like sharing the stage with Earth Crisis and, and I presume like being able to kind of chat with Carl and the guys in the band For you.

Was that like a strange moment?

Going from like a fan doing a Firestorm cover in high school to having your own band sharing the stage, you know, being able to play with, you know, idols and bands that you looked up to as a as a kid?

Like, is that?

Is that a strange kind of thing to reflect on?

It's.

It's a great feeling and you know, you build gradually, so you kind of meet people as you go.

And it's it's more the band you listen to the the bigger you get.

Back then, and I think it was 99 or 2000 and we played a show in Syracuse and Earth Crisis wasn't playing, but Carl was there.

We had a great set.

Remember, after the set, he pulled me aside and said how much he enjoyed it and he liked what I was doing.

And like, for me, you know, it got into early 20s.

That hit so hard.

And it really gave me encouragement to keep going.

Like, man, one of my idols just told me I was doing great.

So that really kind of gave me extra confidence.

And then, you know, like a year later, our first full length came out.

And yeah, great band, great, great album.

I know, you know, for myself, I, I've heard this record before.

Earth Crisis was not like a band that I necessarily grew up listening to a lot.

So this was like, definitely an opportunity for me to kind of like, really just dive head first into a lot of the research.

But you listen to this record, I think, oh, like, maybe, yeah, maybe it's like it should be lauded more because I feel like you can look at it and look at the air it was in and see like, oh, 100% all these people took what these guys were doing.

Like they're mixings of like, you know, different styles of heavy metal.

Like there's definitely some like sludge stuff on here.

And like, I mean, there's just so much kind of smashed together.

And yeah, you can kind of just see where people took it and maybe even like got more praise for what they ultimately started a very.

Heavy record.

And there's this Slayer in there.

You know, it's it's it's it's it's very metallic.

But they were they were kind of pigeon holed solely in the hardcore scene back then.

So they didn't get the recognition that they maybe should have got by metal heads.

But also things are a bit more divided at times.

That kind of always comes and goes.

But yeah, it's it's extremely abrasive and aggressive record.

Yeah, I like.

I like you said Slayer.

I think there was like a, a quote I found.

I can't remember if it was Scott or Carl where they were like sitting there kind of like plotting their like takeover.

And he's like, let's be like the the hardcore Slayer.

We just take all the breakdown parts that we like and that's the song.

That's the only part.

I'm not, I'm not, No, I have a question for, for Trevor, but also for the panel.

So in the last episode I mentioned the, the chapter that I wrote kind of analyzing the, the breakdown and structural breakdowns.

It's kind of a, a companion piece to a larger project that I'm working on, which is a, a history of metal core trying to kind of track the entire subgenre of which Unearth and, and Trevor's contribution features quite prominently.

But I wanted to kind of ask, do we think that Destroy the Machines is the first real metal core record?

And if not, what is?

That's a that's a great question because you know, you have the CRO mags, you have earth prices.

You even consider, you know, I I would consider life of agony.

You know they were in the metal world.

But it's definitely.

More of a hardcore record, River runs red.

I I did a little like kind of preliminary research this morning back over some notes that I had and you know, like you've got integrity in the early 90s.

You've got the, the whole cleave Cleveland scene.

So you've got ringworm the Promise in 93, Overcast do their debut record in 94.

So like all of that stuff is really percolating and there are a lot of like early progenitors, but I, I, I personally think that it is the first real metal core record.

And I think what they did is they, they did like a proof of concept with Firestorm, right?

And Firestorm has become such an iconic anthem that I think that's overshadowed destroy the machines a little bit in the ways that Trevor just kind of mentioned, like widely celebrated, but not really held up on that kind of pedestal.

And I think they took what they were doing on Firestorm, like Austin said, the the Slayer parts with the breakdowns, and then they just made it heavier and destroy the machines as kind of like taking that proof of concept and really kind of solidifying it.

And I feel like that 95 point is from then on you start to get like the defining metal core records.

And I think they, they're kind of like right at the, the opening of that kind of door.

So I mean, everyone's got an opinion, but I I feel like we could make a convincing argument that it might be the first real metal core record.

I think you're right.

I think it's the first one that really truly came to prominence because when that came out, they were, they're a pretty big man.

They're they're they're getting pretty massive selling out good sized rooms or even seen a news piece on him back then that was unheard of for bands in the underground.

And a big, a big thing was it was Carl's lyrics.

And you say concept.

That record is basically a concept record.

All the all the themes are very similar.

And basically it ties to the destruction that humanity causes on the planet, which has been a bunch of the themes that I've written about over the years.

So again, influenced by him there.

It's not just him, but other reasons.

But you know, the whole record did set the bar for what, you know, metal core should be.

And you know, you should be socially conscious.

You should speak about it, you know, whole truth to power.

Just tell people what's going on because most people are in the dark.

You know, you have your friend life, your home life, your work, school, and you kind of ignore what's going on around you as the world is burning.

And this record is a true warning with a lot of urgency behind it.

Dylan, I know you're kind of maybe in the same boat that I am.

I don't know, what do you see?

Maybe some of like the kind of the roots from this record and maybe some of the more maybe the metal core that you were listening to.

I I don't know, what are your what are your thoughts on it?

Oh, A.

100% I obviously I started out my my era of metal core was the era that Trevor helped usher in the the Boston MA kind of seen, you know, growing up listening to the Killswitch engages, the Unearths, Darkest Hour, throw them in there as well.

All of those great bands and then seeing the fundamentals start on a record like this and you look at you know, you look at Earth crisis, you look at like all out War, which is when I wanted to bring up as well.

You look at Ringworm, which Owen brought up, or you look at any of those early bands like that or Converge might as well.

They've been around for 30 plus years at this point.

So you see all of that and you see it get honed and fine-tuned in different manners throughout the years.

Because Trevor's right, this records not just like a hardcore record, right, Like there's Slayer riffs on it.

There's.

Austin, you said there's sludge style stuff on here.

There's borderline crowbar parts on here.

The the song structures on this record are pretty wild.

Like there's no atypical structure on here.

It just kind of goes from part to section to do you name it.

You know, there's not even there's not even a ton of breakdowns on it.

You know, they're, they're used very sparingly in a very great way to for impact and to see something like this affect what came later is, is pretty wild.

Because I look at this the same way as like, you know, Death Core was a few years ago where everybody wants to talk about what started there.

And to me Death Core was like, oh, Dying Fetus has a record out or like the Red Cord, you know, for something like that, like it all kind of starts somewhere.

And then other bands just take what they love about whatever that first listen to, whatever band it was, and they pull from there and go, what can we, what can we do with this?

How can we make it better?

How can we make it our own?

You know, to quote, I can't remember who said it in the the DVD for On Earth, but someone said, oh, that's an unearthed breakdown.

And that's how, like, my buddies and I used to determine if like a band was worth listening to.

It's like, oh, is that an unearthed breakdown?

Like, yeah, let's give him a shot.

Let's let's.

Fucking give it a go.

I think that record doesn't have a lot of the traditional build up and then just music only breakdowns.

It's so, so heavy with the vocals.

There's so many lyrics that he's singing over what you might think was a breakdown, but Scotch is dancing with his right hand.

Like there's so many riffs where you know, you can Just Dance to yourself.

You know, if you do the hardcore dancing at the time, that was people danced not too, of course, but it was it was more of a dance to it at the time.

It was more of the region for the when you climb the ladder, you pick up the change.

It was more of a rhythm than an aggressive, you know, you know, punching act.

You know, things vary in different scenes at different times, but there was a very danceable record.

I was.

Looking at the notes that that Austin pulled together and like you were saying, Trevor, in the, in our last discussion on your record 3 in the eyes of fire, Austin and Dylan did a superb job of pulling together exceptional notes to kind of make the jumping off points.

And this episode is no exception.

There's so much material here about this record and earth crisis and the history.

So there's like so much cool stuff we can jump off on, but there's a there's a kind of point in there where Carl talks about like wanting to further what they did on the EPS so on all out war and Firestorm and he's like, we want more groove, We want more feel.

And I feel like that kind of compliments what you just said there about like it's a bit dancier.

It has a bit more playful kind of attitude to it.

And in my play through this morning, I basically just went like all out War Firestorm straight in to destroy the machines.

And like, it's really stark when you run it that way.

Like you hear like, ah, tuning, heavier drum production, heavier playing, more playful as you mentioned with Carl and his lyrics, like he's just scatting all over the place.

Like it's full of stuff.

It's a very busy record, but it's also like a very kind of refined record.

And I think like threading that needle is what makes it so effective.

I agree.

I I, I really love the the leads over the bouncy dance, dance riffs.

This it's the whole record has them and you just, you hear this, this sick lead, then all of a sudden they're dancing under it and it's like, this is fucking thick, man.

Like what a what a concept, you know?

Yeah.

Maybe the most interesting or one of the interesting things of like kind of diving into this bands like History a little bit was like just learning that it was kind of a side project in itself, like almost kind of an afterthought to to start with.

I mean, some of these got like, I think Earth crisis, like the foundations of it maybe started in 89.

Carl like wanted to start a band and he he kind of had some skateboarding friends that he had brought in that he thought could do vocals and they kind of rounded out, played a few shows, fell apart, but he kept writing.

And that's like kind of ultimately what became the All Out War EP.

And then got connected with some other guys in a band called Framework.

And through that they were like, yeah, our our buddy Carl, like he's got some, some great songs here, let's help him out and we'll record this EP.

And it kind of, you know, reminds me of just like how your band started was essentially a side project in a way.

You were were in second division.

You basically kind of connected with the guys in Point O 4.

And, you know, I, I wonder like at what point, you know, it was just kind of interesting to like go back to our, our previous episode and, you know, you seemed like almost kind of hesitant to, to do that.

What point did like unearth, like how Ken was kind of badgering you to, you know, do this project with him?

You know, what, what were some of the hang ups on that?

Like what ultimately, you know, persuaded you to to dive into Unearth?

Like how?

How did that come to be so the?

The, the exact way it went was at abandoned high school, the band was called Rind.

And right after high school the band broke up.

But three of us want to continue.

So we've we formed Second Division or 2D.

And so now this band, you know, had the same same core, just different guitar players.

And it was a bit more of a hardcore venture.

Ryan was very metal core.

You know, that's, if you look back on that, like that was that was early 90s.

So that was just kind of the sound that was being naturally produced at the time.

But Second Vision is more more of a hardcore band and we played a lot of shows with Point O Four and they they want to part ways with the singer.

Ryan was, I mean, sorry, Second Vision was starting to do really well regionally.

Shows are getting bigger.

And these are my friends, you know, the German bassists I've been with since high school.

So I didn't want to leave the project that they're they're my guys.

But it wasn't exactly what what I wanted to play.

I want to play more metal.

Second Division was more of a hardcore band, but the guys want it to be a bit more lighter and we're starting to experiment with some lighter sounds.

But I was still staying with them.

And then I had my appendix out that summer of 1998 and we were about to release our debut like a six song CD.

So we postponed it and but Ken kept kept and come over to ask me to to to be in this new project that was no longer point of four.

They had four songs pieced together and I just kept on saying no.

So you got me to go over to do the side project.

So we're just going to do a fun one with our friends band called Purities Failure with the other guys.

It's going to be Ken and Mike from Mike Rudberg from from what came on earth.

And then I think it was MM and Nate from Curious Failure.

They, they, they signed a Goodfellow Records.

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a good man to check out.

They didn't do much touring after the, the mid 2000s, but good man.

But anyway, I showed the practice and it was not the sideman practice.

It was, it was point O four there all the guys and I already tricked me.

I'm here.

And they played and they played Shattered by the Sun.

It was just just the music and it was exactly what I wanted to hear.

All right, well, this is exactly what I had vocal ideas.

Immediately I picked up a mic, start singing along to their their just their rough songs, make my own float everything.

And it made it.

It was an easy decision for me to join.

So I was in both bands for a minute and then I remember talking to Buzz.

He was like, we're trying to push this thing, so let's we just focus on one band.

And so I'm like, you know what?

It's better if I just step away and give Second Vision a chance to continue.

And they they, they got a new singer.

It didn't, didn't, didn't go very far.

But most of the guys found other musical ventures after it too.

But yeah, those are those are my great friends.

So I didn't want to leave, but I found a band that was playing, that was our friends with playing music.

That was exactly what I wanted to hear.

So then we became Unearthed and it's it's all really started.

I'm glad Ken bugged me.

Hey, us too.

I mean.

Persistence pays off, right?

I couldn't go.

Anywhere I was summed up, you know, not with me.

It well, you know, with this band too, it really seems like, you know, a lot of this, I mean Carl having the material and then even after that, it really just kind of like quick fire from that how it sounded like just based off what you said, like they had some songs already ready to go.

Like how long before, you know, you start playing your first shows?

Like I think the the show that we saw that your first show potentially was buried alive die cast in All out War.

Is that right?

Yeah.

How was that?

It was great.

Buzz booked it.

So it was our first, our first gig.

It was packed.

It was it was a good start and our first couple of shows were like that and then then it fell off quick.

We had some really bad shows.

I remember loading the trailer in Rochester, NH forget the name of the club right now.

So I can't believe you forget, but forever ago we were loading the trailer played in front of like I think 3 people and then buzz buzz turns me.

We're loading the the van and he goes grab a hold.

I'm like grab a hold of what?

He goes the sick and ship.

There was a there was a poor outlook at first, but then shortly after that show, we we dropped our demo tape, which eventually became above the fall of man EP in May of 99.

And once the tape came out, then people started coming to our shows and singing all the words.

And both said that in his defense, because point O 4 was doing well regionally and so was second division.

So we had a fan base, even though second vision didn't have records out.

It was it was kind of easy, easily easy to sing along to people would know the words from just by going to the shows.

So you know, we have our pylons.

We had these great shows on Earth Starts and show people moshing, but it wasn't well in the same energy that we're used to.

So we're like, this isn't as good.

Maybe we should go back to other bands.

But once the demo came out, then all of a sudden things changed quick.

And I know like just kind of again, going off of like what I've what I've learned about earth prices, like, you know, this all out war 7 inch, I think, I think came out on like a local label with like conviction records and then pretty much the next few releases would come out on victory.

How did you get linked up with I believe it was Endless Fight that released your first EP?

They did.

So it was, it was my job and Mike Redberg's job.

We would talk about what labels want to send packages to.

And I was in college at the time for journalism.

So I had some some courses where I actually made press packs and send it to labels.

And that's that's how we got signed to eulogy, something like a pro like press pack.

I think we even had fucking PowerPoint and that maybe not hell.

Yeah.

Let's go legit.

I sent it to labels and I would I would hear back and yeah, just did as as pro as we could back then as kids.

And we got we got a good shot with with eulogy and then metal blade follow suit after.

I'm kind of surprised.

I was talking to Dill off air.

I'm like, I feel like this band could have ended up on Victory.

Was that ever on the table?

Do you ever link up with them at all to basically?

All, all the big, the big ones at the time, yeah, we talked to Tony on the phone, but had so many bands tell us not to sign there.

But he couldn't have been more friendly to us.

I won't pretend to know all the accounting issues, advance claim, but at least on the phone, he's trying to sign us.

He was a very level headed, friendly person.

We chose not to go there for a variety of reasons.

But yeah, we were in talks with Roadrunner, social media, Metal Blade, all the labels back then, and the Blade was the one that we chose.

Today.

They're the most forthcoming with us.

They had the best contractors, was only a couple couple records.

So at the time, when you're young, you're not sure what's going on.

2 records seems a lot better than 6.

The finances might have been less, but it doesn't matter when you just want to, you know, get your footing and figure out where you stand in the world of metal.

And yeah, it worked for us very well.

One, one of the things we talked about when we last met up for the pilot and we were talking about 3 in the eyes of fire was the Metal Blade doesn't really, or at least when you joined Metal Blade, they didn't really have a lot of metal core bands on the roster.

And I think they had more of a a kind of cultural cache that was, for a lack of a better word, like traditional metal.

So more progressive thrash, maybe some sludge and doom stuff on there, but not what I would consider metal core bands.

And then after we did the episode, I kind of went back through to try and see if I got that wrong.

And I went through and I was like, oh, I forgot about Winter Solstice.

Great band that also put out a record on Middle Blade.

But I guess in your head, like you're talking to all the different labels, you've got your Roadrunners, Century Media, like you've got labels that have a reputation for for certain things.

Was there any kind of discussion in the band about like, if we go with Metal Blade, we can kind of like maybe put a bit more of like a stamp of legitimacy on on what we're doing on the Unearthed sound and put it on a roster against some of these other bands or without other considerations at play?

I think the consideration that I can mention what you're talking about is the fact that metal blade didn't really have metal core.

It would make us stand out on their label, whereas Roadrunner, the central media had bands that, you know, they've already released records and perhaps we'd be behind them in pecking order like Roadrunner.

That's.

Crisis.

That's crisis.

Did Roadrunner at one point, right?

So they did.

Breed the killers, but you know, kill switch for our friends had just signed trip to Roadrunner and you know, just by their their, you know, slightly more commercial approach to metal core.

They're always going to be above in the pecking order anyway.

So I was like, all right, well, they're going to be above us.

Tension media had a bunch of bands too at the time.

I forget I'm a turmoil.

Great band, great band.

So that's so sick.

But Metal blade made sense.

Plus they were, they were, they were so friendly and they they still are.

I mean, even though we haven't been on them for a long time, we, we still, we still seem at festivals on tours, we still trade emails and texts once in a while.

They they feel like a family there.

They they did very much so then and they can still do now.

Yeah, we're talking about just the kind of this like upward or like this kind of like slow introduction of like groove.

And I feel like a lot of that has to do with like the drumming.

There was, you know, basically microcardias.

As far as I remember, original Earth Crisis drummer was in Framework.

He was on the All Out War EP and then quit maybe like a few weeks before they were supposed to go on this like run a dates or like a festival in like Dayton, OH.

And so they got Dennis Merrick, who's been their drummer till now, like he's still the drummer.

He'd I believe he played in cinder block, I read with Tim Redmond from Snap Case and Scott Vogel from Terror.

So he'd like Buffalo hardcore guy.

He like went to college kind of near Syracuse, would go to their these shows.

He became friends with the Earth crisis guys.

So kind of like a natural, like, hey, we need a drummer.

You seem like you'd be great for it for this.

And so they kind of mentioned like he was more of a he was definitely a hardcore drummer, but he had like maybe like this kind of like hip hop, kind of like groove.

They've I've even seen some of the things like John Bonham kind of laid back feel to it as well.

So I have to wonder too, you know, I believe Mike came in before the oncoming storm.

How did his introduction to the banner, his like input?

How did that change, if at all, like the feel of On Earth and just like how a song might be constructed or the vibe of it.

Mike Justin, you mean?

Yes Sir.

MM did change the sound a lot.

If you listen to our first record, Things of Conscience, if you isolate the drum tracks on a lot of those songs, it is also like a hip hop record.

It's very damnable.

So that's that's where Mike Rudberg came from.

He was more in that that that realm.

Mike Justin's more of a an animal.

He's a chaos drummer, but he what I like about him, what he does for songs, he builds peaks and valleys out of the same riff that a drummer today that might be more, you know, more to a clique that might not do the same thing that Mike Justin doesn't.

You guys mentioned it last time where he's he he's kind of like the secret sauce.

And I see that and I was refreshing on on in the Eyes of fire.

I hadn't listened the whole record in a while.

And there's so many parts where it's the riff is happening the same, but he did something else to make it a, a unique, a unique section or build to the next part or transition.

And that's that's, that's not normal when it comes to drummers that just follow the the the the click.

So it is more organic.

So I think that's what Mike really adds, adds where he has the most flavor.

Yeah, I think we touched on it in the previous episode, but one of the things that I definitely noticed for those records is like the use of accents and kind of just doing just like slight little variations in like a kick pattern or a little fill or something to kind of offset maybe like the second run through of a breakdown.

So that it's not quite exactly the same as it was, you know, on the previous kind of bar or whatever.

And there's just like these little kind of hints and accents that for me, when I'm like really locked into the record, like at the gym or something, I'll hear a bit that I haven't heard before and I'm like, fuck that sick.

Just like it's, it's so simple.

It's just like a little fill here a little extra like ride or like a fast tap somewhere.

Just like all those little playful accents really do make things feel more like playful and loose and exciting.

I I.

I couldn't agree more on There's a song that I I was point to that that does that and it's a erasy by Pantera and it's got the heavy part that's pushing the end of the song.

Just the kind of jam and Jimmy Paul's, you know, going with it the second time around, though, he is just kind of with the symbols like what the this is awesome.

Just it's kind of it's it's down the mix, but it varies up enough.

We're like, man, I love this part.

I love that accent he's through and it's it's timeless really.

And just to, to quickly kind of finish that thought, like in the, in the chapter that I wrote about breakdowns, like the, the framework that I used is all about like the psychology of anticipation.

And like why I think that's so effective is because like you can be a fan of heavy music of metal core.

You can like understand all of the pieces.

And you have kind of like a very like straightforward template of like I've heard a breakdown before.

This is how it goes.

We're dropping into the half time feel, the quarter time feel.

I know roughly where the snare hits are gonna be.

I know where the crash is gonna be.

So as soon as you modulate that expectation slightly and you put it like slightly off time, my sugar is a great example of like fucking with your brain chemistry to kind of like great effect, but modulating that anticipation is super effective because it like goes to your lizard brain, you know, like your subconscious is like, this is how it should go.

And then if you're like pushing it off kilter, then you're like, oh, I'm excited.

And yeah, I, I, I still get a rush listening to your records for that exact reason, because there's little bits that I forget, little bits that I don't expect.

And I'm like, fuck, that's so dope.

I like that we could produce that on our records because that's we grew up listening to bands and that's what we enjoy too.

So that's that's awesome.

And I do credit Mike a lot with that.

For a band to have like put out a couple releases within like a very small amount of time.

I I find it kind of hilarious in a way that like this band caused so much like, and you know, maybe it's the just, you know, kind of pre Internet thing or like just the era that it came out of.

Like they caused so much controversy.

Like there's so much like, you know, you look back on it and you have like the kind of like the hindsight now and, and everything.

But at the time, it's so wild to think that like this band would go out on tour and get like maybe threatened with violence in a town that they'd never heard of, like after just a few releases.

Like how does how does that happen?

Like how are you 2 seven inches And everybody's like kind of like I don't like what that guy says.

I don't like what this band's about.

Like it's just so interesting.

Is.

That is that what Earth crisis?

Yeah.

Earth crisis, like just to, you know, they're talking about, you know, going on tour and like, yeah, there might be someone in another town who are like, we're going to we're going to kick your ass.

Why?

What did I do?

Like, I don't like I don't like what you said on the record.

I don't I don't agree with it.

And we're like just some of the shows.

It's pretty wild.

I mean, there's the story of the machines is all about how our species is killing the planet.

So people will get upset with that.

If that's if that's your industry, if you work in the slaughter, slaughtering of animals or a big oil, he's speaking against your industries.

And people that work in it or might have a share in it or stake in it aren't going to be happy about that.

And plus, it goes against people's beliefs, like people don't like to hear bad news about stuff that is they think is normal in their everyday life because they don't want to think they're doing anything bad for the world.

And when you give them evidence, they're going to reject it.

Only you have to even repeated evidence that, hey, this is actually bad.

We can we can change it.

But your people's initial reactions to get defensive.

And so that's probably what he ran into.

In in like kind of the Boston area, I know like there's like a handful of like straight edge bands that I could think of like, you know, like slap shot and everything.

But you know, where were you going to like many of those shows?

Where where is it kind of like this contentious thing?

Like did you see like kind of sides split in different shows that you may have gone to?

No, our, our, our scene.

Boston seemed pretty, pretty close.

I mean, we, we were really the, the North Shore hardcore.

So we, we play in towns like Wakefield and Lynn and Salem and Gloucester.

We did great shows.

You know, hundreds of kids would come out and these bands weren't signed.

They're just putting out demo tapes.

And there was every show was awesome.

We played Boston sometimes.

Boston was generally difficult to get into because it was mostly 18 plus.

A lot of shows were 21 plus.

So we would play Boston.

It wasn't the same energy, but strange was a thing, especially in Maine.

There's a whole this whole crew in Maine that would wear like work work gloves, yellow work gloves and put the big XS on them and they would go to our shows.

You can see one of them is on our our first record.

We played a show in New Hampshire, remember, with Hatebreed and a few of them were there.

They all, they all do the sing along and there's a pylon record and you see one of the the work close with X.

That was that true.

Still see those guys sometimes.

We just actually just played up in Bangor recently somewhere there and there's one guy that's in Florida, I think.

Yeah, people have stuck with us along.

Take out the old gloves, they look a little tattered.

But in the soccer museum.

I just like, I just find that so fascinating that like, yeah, you really could have just put out like a couple releases and it may be toured and like, yeah, that caused like a bit of a stir and and your local scene or or like all over.

And this band toured pretty hard after Firestorm from what I understand.

I mean, they were broke as the as there are many underground bands.

I, you know, that and being like straight edge, you know, vegan guys like read stories of like, them eating out of peanut butter jars and, you know, like sleeping under like the staircases of like a hotel until they got kicked out and just like all of these different things.

And I'd imagine those first couple tours for you kind of like off of those first releases were probably difficult, I'd imagine.

Yeah.

We we had a tough, tough start.

The shows were good, but we drive 13 hours and we paid 30 bucks and some shows were were great.

Some shows are terrible, but that's just the the beginnings for most bands.

Mike Justin did play on Earth Crisis for a little while and he told us that they share some of the stories of their early days of I guess they really had a hard time with trying to eat vegan, especially in Europe in the early days.

So it was very difficult and challenging for him.

But now it's it's in Europe especially, it's very simple to go to go with that diet.

And we've done a couple tours where a few, a few of us have chosen to go vegetarian and it's super simple over there.

I find it a lot harder in the USA to try to eat vegetarian on tour.

The basically impossible.

Dylan kind of lives within that.

I mean, have you, have you done any tours while you were vegan or vegetarian?

I think the first one I did was, was that way and, and the rest of the guys in the band were very much like, hey, there's a McDonald's up the street, like figure it out kind of things like, all right, you know, I'll figure it out and work to my best ability here.

It was a I'll say this.

There was a a certain supermarket that was based out of northern Arkansas that had a lot of things taken from it over time.

They just went missing tour.

I just don't know.

Just just went missing.

Fell off the back of a.

Truck there.

There you go.

I mean it, it's far easier now.

I mean, hell, you can go down the street and find something.

But to what Trevor just said, from what I've from what I know and and studying and everything that it yeah, it is.

It's still a little difficult in this area or in the US to travel and eat on a plant based lifestyle or vegetarian lifestyle.

But when you're especially if you're in like the more rural areas, such as where like I grew up or where I live currently, it's much more difficult there.

Once you hit below like the Mason Dixon line, like it is like just figure it out, man.

Make the make the make the Bucky stop before you go pick up what you need to do all of that.

But, you know, we were talking about, I hate to like backtrack on this, but we were talking about, you know, the reputation that Earth Crisis had basically developed prior to this album coming out.

And you look at all the controversy of the band, maybe it's stirred up.

You know, that was also just kind of the time there, right?

You know, every, I think every person has heard a story about a band that may or may not have been true.

And you just kind of went with it during this era because it was there was a kind of a mystery about it, right?

Like I always look at Neurosis, no one knew a whole lot about that band.

That band was kind of its own inclusive thing.

They had this weird following, They were terrifying and they just, they would run into a town, play these shows that would decimate people and leave.

And then there were stories left in the wake of that.

So you look at a band like Earth Crisis, that newer band hadn't even released a full length yet, has a lot of notoriety off of 227 inches EPS.

It also has a essentially A moral position that they choose to follow that is against everybody else's or against the vast majority that upsets people.

You know?

No, as is Trevor said, nobody wants to hear that they're wrong.

And this band isn't just saying, hey, you're wrong, here's why they're going you're wrong.

And they're saying that over and over again with an escalated voice.

They're just getting more and more direct with it.

And it seems like with each release it gets more and more direct.

Fuck you, you're wrong.

We're right.

This is what life really is, and this is what it can be if you don't pay attention now.

Yeah, I I mean, I obviously wasn't going to hardcore shows in the 90s in the States, but from what I've read and, and my kind of sense of things, it's like every kind of error of hardcore has its iconoclasts, right.

And like I look at something like the youth crew movement, which generally had like somewhat overwhelming kind of like positive kind of tone to it, which isn't going to ruffle as many feathers, although it will be kind of like distinct from a more like negative or aggressive kind of hardcore.

And then in the 90s you have like the Krishnikor thing, right?

And that ruffled a lot of feathers because it was perhaps maybe too weird or too kind of esoteric for what should be something rooted in, you know, apathy and destruction and kind of like heralding back to the lineage of punk and rebellion.

But I think with Earth Crisis, what they tapped into was, as Dylan said, like a moral and ethical position.

And then to kind of like stamp that flag unwaveringly in a very militant kind of way.

And that's what gets people kind of ruffled up.

And like Trevor said, like if your livelihood, if your existence is kind of predicated on something that they are like morally and ethically opposed to, then it kind of your, your position in opposition is already kind of baked in.

So like, it's like an attack on your sense of self.

So even if you're someone from a like a hardcore scene that's supposed to be open minded and inclusive and for the outcasts and all the things that we hear again and again and again through different bands, a band like Earth Crisis will be like, no, actually fuck you.

Like that, that, that that's going to get people pissed off.

Being at their shows and they they would at merch sometimes they'd have TV screen and the show slaughterhouses of animals being, you know, severely mistreated, not not even just killed for their food, but really severely mistreated.

And that can cause a real visceral reaction of people, you know, So they did a good job at opening people's eyes to it.

And I think being militant like that, not passive does get the does get the message across more.

It was helpful.

I know the entire upstate New York region was probably the most straight edge and vegan area of the United States when they were at their peak because it it didn't really kind of spread in incident into that local culture.

And I think that's important.

I think it maybe it did save some animals or did some people on the right path or at least open their eyes to what what what the world is doing.

Again, just like with the research I did, it seemed like maybe a lot of that, you know, some of the the touring and like, you know, the confrontation, the conflict maybe had an effect on some people.

Like I know after the touring for Firestorm, Scott almost quit the bands like he was kind of had had it Ben, their guitar player at the time, Ben Reed.

It was like very anxious on tour.

I think they mentioned he might be like agoraphobic.

He thought he was sick all the time.

So there's just like all these things going on and and he would also just kind of like seem to maybe bail on some tour.

So they kind of went their separate paths.

And so when you're getting into the debut record it it seems like they went in and and kind of row and recorded it as a four piece.

I know they mentioned writing a lot of the material for this in like a rehearsal space called Love Shack.

And like the north side of Syracuse, dead of winter, there's like barely any electricity in this place.

I remember they were like, it was so cold.

We would go to the bathroom and, and find a heater and like just warm our hands up so we could play a little bit, you know, as far as 3 is concerned, do you remember like kind of the initial origins of like how some of that material came to be?

Where were you, you know, did you have a rehearsal spot where you were you doing it at home and somebody's basement?

What were kind of like the initial happening?

So that record, it's fine because I.

Was talking about today with, with Buzz and Pete because we, we have a goal of being in the studio by the end of summer, early early fall and we only have some skeletons and so we have to really get moving.

And I said we did this before in shorter time.

It was for any eyes of fire.

We, we toured very heavily on the oncoming storm album cycle and we had to be in the studio by the by the spring in 2006 because we had to get out the record during Oz Festo 6.

And so we we had four months, so we didn't play any shows for four months.

And we were Ken lived in a city called Grafton and that is just around the Worcester area, Worcester, Mass, at the center of Mass and where we all live North Shore.

So, you know, over an hour.

So me, Mike and Buzz, which would travel every day, three or four days a week to Kent's and just rehearse was before we we would change files.

We just get there, practice and a lot of days we did nothing, sat there and just we forced ourselves to do it.

And you know, maybe we'd get an idea and fix an arrangement, but nothing creative will come out of there really.

So there's a lot of what felt like wasted time, but we got a really good record record out of it.

We weren't even done writing the record when we got to Seattle and we lived there for seven weeks.

I had maybe two or three songs written vocally, so I had to do a lot of hustle in there.

We wrote a couple of songs, and while we're in the studio, and especially the one that flew in last minute was Big Bear of Chaos.

We were done tracking basically everything, only over dubs and vocals were left.

And so Thumbs were done and most guitars were done.

And they said, hey, get this riff, let's just go fuck around with it.

And they fucked around for an hour and then just did one live take.

And then that sounds good.

And then eventually they went to fix the guitars.

But the drums are always one big take, Yeah?

Definitely one of the curious things that we had in our in our episode on three was, you know, just how you kind of in a circled your way to Terry and you know, with with Earth's Crisis, this record in particular, I know Scott Co produced it, but they they were big fans of the band Believer.

And you know, they had Jim Winters who had filled in on tour with him before.

You know, he plays alternate guitar.

I think he's credited on the record.

But they had, you know, two of the guys essentially, I believe Kurt Bachmann and and Joey Dobb who engineered the record.

And it was really just because they they had a particular, they wanted to capture the same kind of vibe this.

So they like, let's just go with the guys who did the like, did that record, wrote it.

And I think I think the name of the studio is called Trauma.

And they thought it was going to be this like, surely this record was recording some expensive space and it ended up being like a a studio in somebody's mother's basement.

But all this is all this to say, you know, I think initially we read that you had maybe tried to reach out to Ross Robinson.

Was there any reason in particular that you saw him out first?

Was it like a record he had done before?

You know, why did that ultimately kind of fall apart?

And then and Terry Date was the one who worked on the record.

Ross and Terry were both ideas that Metal Blade and our management at the time put at us.

We would have happily went back with Adams and see that our debut and oncoming Storm and and half of the Endless CP, but they wanted to mix something up.

You know that the trajectory of the band at the time.

They want us to set ourselves apart.

So they set up two interviews, Ross and and and Terry, and they were very, very different.

I think you guys mentioned in the last episode, whereas we liked Ross, who's awesome, you know, he did some great work, but I don't think it would have worked with our personalities at the time because things are starting to fall apart with Mike, you know, not with me in particular, but you know, just kind of as a vibe thing.

There's this stress.

I mean, Ken and I always had some underlying stress and there's just stressing in the camp because all the heavy tuan we're doing.

And I think the deadline to write the record so quickly and feeling the pressure to make sure it was as good or at least a good enough follow up to the one that, you know, put us in a map, you know, worldwide.

So there's a lot of pressure and having a guy like Ross tell us that, you know, he'd have us crying or fighting each other because he likes the passion didn't make sense for us at that moment in time.

I think creatively, maybe a different moment in our our career could have worked, but at that moment it would have it it might have broken us, you know, shatter us up into different pieces and we've performed unearth on on earth AD or whatever, you know, some it it would have been your your.

Some kind of monster moment, you know, just like a real, a real kind of breaking point for the bad.

But then Terry came and he was extremely chill and friendly and just wanted to get the best performances out of us.

And he came in and Ken's mom cooked this amazing Italian meal and it was out of the world good.

And he was so polite and nice and his whole pedigree of the records he did.

And especially since we're such big fans of Pantera and we just previously toured with with Diamond Vinny and Damage Plan, it was, it seemed to make the most sense for us, you know, So we got in there, we got to shoot shoots, you know, shoot, shoot the shit about pants, hair and diamond video.

And it was a very pleasant experience being in there.

And we didn't fight to the point of one want to break up in there at all.

There was some tense moments like any any time and any band.

But I think going with Ross might have not been a good, good time at that moment.

But I'd love to work with that guy.

I'm still just kind of dreaming about what a Ross Robinson on Earth record would sound like.

It just, we'll, we'll never know, but I really would.

I really would love to listen to it, yeah.

I'm down to go.

Hell yeah.

Get him on the phone.

Tell me about that studio, Studio X because like when I was looking it up and I, I believe I mentioned an episode, it was like I saw they'd done like a lot of commercial work maybe previously at certain point they did like movie scores and then I think it was owned by like the Wilson sisters.

But I, you know, like, what was your experience?

Like what, what was that studio like?

I'm sure it's a lot different than somebody's like Mother's Basement, but it was the.

Most expensive record we've ever done.

For the guys that we had recording the record, the price tag was high in the sudden week.

That was the most we've ever taken to record a record.

And we lived there, lived in a Days Inn for seven weeks.

So it was very expensive to do that record.

It was a very nice studio, large has own kitchen, had a huge control room, a couple different living areas, tracking rooms.

It was it was nice.

It was very, very modern at the time.

What was the what, what do you think took the longest as far as like, I mean, you said you'd, you had some stuff to kind of like catch up on or, or fill in yourself, but what you know, what were, were there any hurdles or was it all pretty much kind of smooth as far as recording the other pieces?

It wasn't.

So, you know, it wasn't all that smooth.

I remember there was, there's some drama with tracking.

I remember I was in the back.

I was, I was writing vocals and all of a sudden there's the back like living room area and then Terry comes in and sits down next to me.

I'm like, don't you tracking guitars?

He said.

No, no, Ken, Ken, Tony, leave.

He's going to track himself.

I'm like the fuck?

Paying all this money for this guy and Ken's like now I'll do it myself.

It's fine I think.

I think they butted heads over something and it got, it got elevated.

But we were there every day from I think it was 10 AM, 10 AM till 10:00 PM.

Sometimes we go longer and it was literally every day.

And so there was this after a few weeks, stress starts to build up.

So it all goes squashed, of course.

But those intense moments.

And I don't usually like band members being in the studio when I, when I track vocals, like it to be a one-on-one with me and the producer.

If they have an engineer, that's fine to whatever, but I like that kind of chemistry.

And so a couple times we had to have Terry take some guys out.

So that was I was not pleasant, but now they mean now, now they know, you know, just comments on it after, you know, then then I'll fix it.

If if you do that, let's let's let us paint the picture and then then we'll fix something.

If you, if you guys are really, really, you know, desiring a change, sure.

So.

Very Bob Ross method with that, we'll fix it.

We'll fix it here.

That's why I feel is with, especially with, with Will Putney, He's done our last couple records and I literally feel like we're painting when I'm in there, like all the vocals written.

But then we of course, we kind of, it's a it's a living animal.

Sometimes you change things on the spot and rework things and it's really fun and you go different dynamics with different voices and it's and once you're locked in with somebody, you don't want someone else.

So actually, you know, because then you hire this producer to be locked in with you and then then we can talk about later.

So that's that's my view.

So with with having the long history with Adam D, who's basically a family member with you guys at this point and working with someone like Terry Date to do you know what, what was the difference between working with those two, especially with your vocal production on that?

You know, there's a lot of footage out there that kind of shows your recording during this record or on on three.

So for you, though, what was the big difference with working with those two?

Was it a comfort thing?

You know, that Terry add a level of maybe I don't.

I don't quite know who you are.

I know what your legacy is.

I know what you're I know the records you've done.

I know I love those records.

Whereas with Adam, it's just like meeting up with, you know, a family member down the street at the pub or something.

It was a different approach, so it's hard to compare them.

This and as a fire we went for a live sign records.

No click.

All the drums were done either in full or in sections in the entirety.

Didn't go back and punch in fixes or vocals.

I would do or do each phrase or do a line or two at a time.

I'd do it only three times, so I never did a punch fix.

We'd only pick the best phrase of that time.

So it was meant to sound like a live record.

So if I was tracking with Adam and I was singing and it wasn't right, he'd stop it right then there and he'd go, no, you know, he'd just make make a goof of the situation, move on and sing again.

And that's kind of what Will does.

You know, he's not as goofy as Adam, but it's a very stop.

They hope that wasn't good.

Let's go again to a Terry.

That was not the approach.

It was let's let's do this like it's a concert.

And I like that approach too.

I mean that I'd love to hear that record produced and performed like a standard suit, you know, studio record.

But I think the charm in it is that it is it is a live record.

It's I kind of fight myself on it because one song I really want to hear Cleaner is unstoppable.

We've never played that one live and it's I feel like if that was more more produced and performed differently, it might might hit harder.

But I get in my own head, you know, I, I, I love that song and I just never saw the light of day.

Maybe if we do an anniversary on it it'll be like pre determine sky and catch some wings.

Hell yeah.

I think we mentioned this in in our previous chat, but I think for, for me anyway, like it's it's definitely the like warmest and definitely like the livest sounding on Earth record in the in the catalog.

And I think that is probably a testament to to this kind of recording process that you're talking about.

And Terry's I guess kind of laid back approach to just kind of letting it be as organic as possible and then kind of like piercing all of those bits together.

So you have this very live sounding record.

Yeah.

I mean, I would love to hear like a a super like dialed in clicked in modern studio version of those songs.

Like that would be cool too.

But I think there is such a charm and warmth to to the way that album was recorded that it does set itself apart from the rest of the catalog.

Usually in my experience, when you hear a song we recorded that was from a certain time, like an era, it, you know, it might sound technically better.

It's not better.

There's something about it, it loses something.

So that's why we we've talked about it.

We've talked about re recording our first record too, because that was done on a $1600 budget.

We know it would be much more proficient today.

But there's something about the energy on that record.

I don't want to, don't want to mess with that, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah, I could do a whole, I could do a whole episode talking about like re recordings and remasters and my opinion on that.

But no, I'm fully with you.

I feel like those records are kind of like trapped in Amber, you know?

And they they, they capture, they capture a particular moment of, of time of the culture of a band, chemistry, all those sorts of things.

So like re recording it is never going to make it sound better.

It it will just be different in a multitude of different ways.

I think it might work more with pop music for some reason, but I'm not an expert on pop.

I mean I just I hear bands that you know, bands like Testament did first strike still deadly and that's one of favorite bands of all time and those they were proficient as hell.

They sounded killer.

Chucks voice was on fire.

But I still prefer to hear the original versions of the songs because that's just what my ears and well, my brain knows it.

I prefer it.

Paul Barrow recently did a complete re recording and remaster of Foundations of Burden from 2014.

One of my favorite Doom records of all time.

And I I love the new recording and I think it sounds great, but if you put a gun to my head and you're like, which one are you going to listen to?

It's the original.

It's always going to be the original.

You know, like the the new one is just like a curiosity and an oddity of like, oh, I wonder how that would sound if they're a little bit more proficient.

They got a little bit more time, they got a little bit more budget, whatever bells and whistles.

But the original is still the original.

Yeah, but does it open up new doors?

But should it?

I don't know.

Like it's, it's, it's it's a, it's a, it's a deep conversation because you still kids in 7th grade today still wear massive puppet shirts, right?

You know, not listening to the re recording of masked puppets.

They're listening to master puppets.

It's just as part of it's it's something about tying it to that era and that sound of the time makes the record stand out.

Like, yeah, sure, we can make it sound like 2025 in the eyes of fire, but would we want that?

Would that sound good?

You know, wrestle with all the time?

Did Terry, was there anything that Terry experimented with while, you know, production sense?

Was there a reason why you excluded, you know, a block of ice from this record at all or?

Block that, that was, that was random.

That was for our first record and that was random.

We were driving by a place near Zinc Studios in Westfield and I think that a sign said, you know, blocks of dry ice and like, I think Canada, let's, let's get that.

How does one how do you go about like making up a block of ice.

We just.

We just brought it into Adam and he was like whatever, he he, he, he literally miked it.

There's a tracking he's.

Got a couple 50 sevens just angled at it.

Oh shit.

For fun.

Love it.

What was the question about Terry?

Did were there anything that like maybe he brought to that like there?

I mean, it's, it feels like a pretty, you know, straightforward record, obviously, but it was there any sort of like production techniques that he maybe like had attempted that maybe you hadn't tried before?

Do you?

If you recall, Yeah.

Yeah, he, he, we, we really went for vocally they are covering on on the DVD that I did sing some of the record with just a regular monitor, no headphones.

It just it was like a live, live show and and some normal with the headphones and and the mic was all all.

You know, most of the record was an SM58.

Figured it's somewhat with us with A7 as well, but mostly the 58.

But he had me sing in different ways.

I can so it goes.

I sang through a walkie-talkie from across the room into another one and that was being miked.

And then during Impostor's Kingdom, he had it the game all the way up and I was on the other end of the room.

So I was like 30 feet away and but you can hear me, it sounds like I'm right there, but it's this extra kind of, it's almost like a natural distortion because it's so far away.

And it's a it was kind of weird stuff like that.

They just because stuff that I've never done before.

And it was fun.

It was fun to experiment and it sounds good in the record.

I would say this record destroy the machines.

I, I feel like it's pretty straightforward.

I don't know if there's like really anything too crazy.

There's some like kind of reverse effects going on.

The thing to maybe kind of like usher in a conversation about what we're hearing.

The thing that really like got me was here's 3 records that like would like pretty much influenced of what came out.

And I mentioned that Believer banned previously their record from 93 dimensions was a big one.

They mentioned Carcass's artwork from 93 as well and then Corrosion of Conformity Blind from 91.

And you know, I would love to hear whoever wants to start like when you turn this record on, what are you hearing?

Like, what's like the first thing that kind of sticks out to you?

It sounds like a hardcore Slayer.

It's dark, you know, it's it's very dark record with with the leads and then the the bouncy chug riffs.

Yeah, the hardcore version of Slayer is my was my opinion on that record and I think they changed drastically on the moral season ends.

That's more of a industrial metallic hardcore record, very dark and I think the records even darker.

I would play, remember that game, Russian Attack, Original Nintendo.

Dylan.

Yeah, old, old game.

I I broke it back out in the in the mid 90s when that record came out.

I remember playing Russian Attack to Gamora season ends and it's a very doctorate game.

You're fighting the enemy.

Just going through this.

It's kind of kind of like Contra, but you're fighting Russians.

Sure.

That that's that that record's a perfect soundtrack for that, for that game.

That's amazing.

Whoever's listening, do it right now and get back to us on that.

It's out there.

I I mean, I, I agree 100%.

I mean it's like definitely got the Slayer kind of influence hardcore vibe, but like I hear so much fucking sludge on this record, like crowbar, like some of those bends.

I think it's the discipline that opens up with like just kind of like I, I want to say it's like crowbar self-titled.

There's like a riff that I felt like was just lifted straight out of that record.

So that there's like, I feel like there's a lot of surprises, like yes, if I'm looking for like a straight ahead, like South hardcore record, I'm going to get it.

But then you know, maybe on like 4th March, there's some stuff on here that I'm like, oh, that kind of sounds like fucking living color, like cult, cult of personality.

Kind of like the weird meandering riffing that's going on here.

It's like you mentioned earlier, like Scott's like fucking hands, like right hand on this record nuts.

Like there, he's all, he's all over the place.

There's some blonde kind of kind of meandering riffs going on.

But yeah, there's there's a lot of surprises here.

So like, I don't think it's necessarily just like, yes, it's that, but it's also like a ton of other shit going on there is.

A lot of we've talked about it.

There's a ton of groove on here, right?

And if you if you took the hardcore title off of this, it would it would fit right with all those early 90s metal records that came out or those, you know, alt rock records that came out that were just really aggressive bands like a Helmet, right?

Like there's some stuff on here that's kind of that stomp groove that they had.

Obviously Pantera right out the gate with some of this stuff I've heard, you know, I heard some of the living caller stuff as well on here.

I mean, there's a riff on Deliverance that's like 35 seconds in that's just like, OK, this is these guys were listening to thrash records in the van for sure.

Like there's no way there's not a testament record somewhere tied in there.

And also learning that a lot of these guys were like metal guys before they got in hardcore really fits in with some of their technical proficiency when it comes to how they approach all this stuff.

I hear burn my eyes all over this, right?

Like, yeah, I just hear it.

It's timely.

It's it's the same year.

Burn my or sorry, Burn My eyes came out 94, I believe 94, maybe early 95.

I hear that.

I hear a lot of the dissonant like Neurosis kind of post metal stuff and some of the intros.

I mean, you look at like destroy the machines, half the songs, a build up intro, right?

And then it gets to the the meat and potatoes part of that.

So there's a there's a ton of really varied shit on here that's not just a hardcore record.

What?

Were you going to say Trevor, sorry?

I was going to say that Wrath of Sanity was a song that we gave my second band Second Division, that we gave people that song to learn as a cover when they're trying out for guitar.

And so that's the band's always been important.

My band's my first band and second band and of course, just forever.

But yeah, what what a great record that.

That breakdown like right at like the three minute mark when it like the pick scrapes and stuff like that at that song, man, that shit's there's a lot of great breakdowns, but that that's definitely one of my favorites.

Oh yeah, for sure.

I was saying before that like in my kind of run through, there's like a noticeable shift both in like composition and production going from the Firestorm EP to this record.

And I think for me, like that's kind of immediately noticeable through like Forced March and Born From Pain.

But where it really kind of clicked for me in terms of that, like proof of concept kind of bit that I was talking about was kind of going back-to-back from The Discipline into Deliverance.

Because I feel like The Discipline is kind of them doing like an updated version of Firestorm or doing like another kind of retread on this like hardcore Anthem, but in the metal core earth crisis styling.

So it's very anthemic.

It's very straightforward, very rooted.

And like they're hardcore kind of foundations.

And then it goes straight into Deliverance.

And like Dylan said, like it's just thrash.

It's just Slayer.

Like they're like, OK, we've got the catchy shit, we've got the pile on shit, now we're just going to riff and like putting those kind of back-to-back right in the middle of the record.

I was like, Oh yeah, this is cool.

Like, I know exactly what kind of like synthesis they're going for.

I also like the use of.

I feel like there's a lot of repetition on this record, you know, like the import, like, hey, we've said a million times on this, like if you have a good riff.

I don't.

I don't know if I need a couple more.

We could just play this one until it if it ain't.

Burnt don't fix it, right?

You know what I mean?

So.

Like it's really there is a lot of like driving parts.

And I'll say Dennis when he plays along like as a drummer, like with some of the little like galloping or like triplet like accents that he's doing over some of these things is like, you know, so if, if maybe there's like a simpler part here, maybe someone else is kind of filling out the space with some of the more like creative unique shit.

And then, you know, then you got Carl, who's just like gets pissed off as as anyone I've ever heard on a record so great.

He had a lot of.

Words in that record.

Yeah, a lot.

Of words, yeah.

Yes, he definitely did.

Trevor, are there any moments on here vocally that stand out for you?

Because obviously that's the, I guess like when you heard this record, were you were you doing Ryan at this point or is Ryan still like a little bit after this?

Ryan continued a little bit after this, but not not too much longer.

Took a few months off and then once we broke up in early 96.

So yeah, it was even late.

I broke up, But yeah.

So that that record wasn't a huge influence on the rhyme days.

We were already basically done, but it was a big influence on second division.

His voice is pretty linear the whole record, but I really do like it.

Feels heartfelt and it's just heavy and it's it's it's tasteful the whole time.

It doesn't do a lot of, you know, different things.

It's just it's right in your face.

You understand a lot of ways saying to which is important to his lyrical content.

Yeah, I think he did a great job.

I prefer that style of voice to what he chose on Gomorrah Season ends even.

I still love that style, but he drastically changed it, and not a lot of singers do that from record to record.

It was, it was an interesting difference, but the music's not a difference.

So it's probably what led to the majority of it.

But yeah, I'd, I'd, I'd I love the quality of his voice in that record 1.

One kind of like added point on the vocal stuff, like one thing I've always loved about your work, because on Earth is you have this very like, I don't want to say clean because you're doing like a lot of yelling and a lot of screaming on the records.

But there's a lot of clarity and a lot of Annunciation to how you deliver vocals.

And Unearth has always been one of those bands where it's very easy for me to to know what you're saying and to know exactly what the lyrics are doing in the context of the rest of the instrumentals.

And and to really kind of like not have to struggle to be like the fox Trevor saying here or like, well, what's that part doing?

And I feel like Earth Crisis and Kyle's vocals do the exact same thing.

Like he sits in a very comfortable mid range.

He still sounds aggressive as hell, but you can understand what he's saying.

And I think for a band that is so explicitly and emphatically message driven, that's really key because like, you can't be packing this record with a lot of historical context and messages and ethics and then have people be like, what the fuck is that dude saying?

Like, I have no idea.

So I I I just think that clarity is like a really key point.

Yeah, I, I, I definitely learned from him from that too.

You know, there's, there's other things that do the same, but if you have a message, you want people to hear it, you know, it wants to be just bargled out and not not heard.

So it's a he does a great job with that.

I know there are a lot of riffs on here.

There's some some great breakdowns on here.

If we could attempt, do you have any favorite riffs or breakdowns, favorite moments from the record in particular?

I mean, I, I don't think there's really a bad track on here and by any means.

Like I think everything has like a hook or something that I could really like.

Fuck yeah, that break that like even if it were just played for a second, I'm like favorite song on the record?

Awesome.

I don't know.

Is there a standout moment for you here on the record, Trevor?

I mean the.

The chorus and wrath of sanity is yes, that's the biggest pylon it would have for that yeah, I wrote down a little bit the the yeah, that and as as physiate yeah that's.

I was just looking at that.

I was like, what's what's with the Z?

Is that meant to be like asphyxiate but but cooler?

I don't know what's going on there, but.

I have it.

This is the dancing right hand.

That's that song makes you just want to get in the pit and and climb the ladder and and you know it's he's he's killing it for the whole record, really.

Anybody else?

Anybody any particular moments?

I will second, Wrath of Sanity is probably my favorite track on the record.

Just a real ass beater.

And to really kind of put that at the very end, like we talked about this at length in the last chat, but like, I'm a big sequencing guy.

I'm a big fan of like knowing how to spread out all of your good songs across a record so that there's still some cool shit happening at the very back end of side B and not front loading everything onto side A.

This record has great sequencing.

Everything flows well, all of the songs are great.

The Wrath of Sanity kicks ass and I also think Born From Pain, it's pretty dope.

I also love the title track as well as kind of like the the real kind of message point of the whole album, the the themes and stuff that Trevor's been talking about.

Like it's all there and that's, you know, the third track on the record.

Like they put that nice and nice and front loaded to make sure you know exactly what's up and then they just beat your ass for the rest of the record.

The the track new ethic is one that really stands out a lot to me.

There's a there's a pretty crazy transition in the beginning of that that the drums are playing under.

Obviously the like the same riff, but they're playing different things.

That transition to the next part, that's it almost feels like it's not playing anything differently.

That just completely blew me away.

Title track is fantastic.

I love the I love that it's literally just two sections of one song.

It's this crazy build up and then you get this great release for the last like minute and a half of the track.

But the 1-2 of the Discipline and Deliverance is just second to none for me.

I'd be a miss if I did not mention the bass playing on this record.

It is not typical to the style of music he is actually playing.

Really creative and interesting stuff all over this record.

There's walking bass lines, there's little flourishes.

He's playing around with octaves and filling stuff out and really, really fun bass player.

Yeah.

He's.

A great, great performer too.

And a lot of bands, a lot of bassist would emulate him on stage.

You know, they would jump and do the the move he would do because he was he's kind of like iconic for for that time.

You know, a lot of lot of great bass.

A really good bass tone too on this record, like really like nice.

It sits well in the mix.

Like it's not it's not buried, it's not too prominent.

It's not too, you know, like jazzy or anything like it's just it's doing exactly what it needs to do and then just a little bit extra.

As we kind of close down here, I know they did like a bit of touring for this record a little after there was a very unfortunate lost accident that followed the release of this record that kind of put him out of Commission for a while.

I think Dennis had like some collapsed lungs that like he couldn't play with them.

I think some of the members went and formed like another project was it?

I believe it's called What Path of Path Of?

Resistance path of.

Resistance.

Yeah.

So they were.

Stay busy, right?

You know, I, I'd have to imagine like being out on the road and and doing this for a while.

You've probably had some, some pretty close calls.

We've seen it like a million times, like with bands over the years.

But like I, I couldn't imagine like putting like everything into this record and then it kind of just like getting kind of cut short by like such a tragic accident.

I know they were on tour with Shelter, who I think also flipped their bus over on its side, but they they were seemed to be fine.

But have have you experienced any close calls in the past like that?

That's probably why tomorrow seasons are so, so much darker of record.

We've been lucky.

We've never had any major, major wrecks.

We've had minor accidents, nothing crazy.

We were hit by a drunk driver once.

We were in New Mexico and we're just driving and we had a conversion van was mine at the time and we just got smashed and kind of spun and get out and woman is woman's hammered and out the the the tongue of a trailer was severed so that that kind of saved us like it I imagine wasn't worse because I'm getting pushed, but that got severed and was was gone.

So yeah, that that was hiccup and tour, but luckily nothing ever ever too serious.

Just some some minor actions.

Good.

Yeah, glad to hear it.

I know what when they did ultimately come back, they played the like the first Oz Fest, which, you know, like kind of crazy to like come and and be on on stage with, you know, some of these bands.

I think they played the second stage.

You know, maybe like almost 10 years later, you would also played AUS fest.

What was that experience like for you, you know, following the release of three, Like I forget some of the maybe some of the names you were playing with, but you know, going from like maybe like a couple days of a of a festival to like this kind of full blown tour.

Like I'm sure it was just like kind of this.

I don't know if well oiled machine, but it was a machine nonetheless.

It's like just this huge thing we.

We did O4 OS fest first.

Oh, really?

That's right and.

Then we did O6OO6 is a fixed slot and we we actually got paid a much different experience than first year O4 all all, all second stage bands that weren't in a fixed slot.

We all had to pay to get on.

Well, our our labels did a good amount of money things.

It wouldn't happen today that we all had to rotate.

So some days beyond 9:00 in the morning and the lady, she would play that was noon.

It was it was a really fun tour, though.

It was the most fun tour maybe ever because all of our friends, they're all the man's we come up with.

And then the bands on the mainstage was the Sabbath.

It was Priest Slayer.

So like how this is like the best festival ever, ever created.

And yeah, we all, most of the dudes and girls that were in bands were, you know, on our 20s.

So we just had a really, really fun summer.

A bunch of us formed this crew called the SoC, the shirts off crew.

And basically we would every night we'd go in circle pit for for Sabbath and some dudes have tattoos SoC on them.

And then we got shut down for a couple of shows because we got really excited.

You know, we had this kind of tight knit community.

We just take our shirts off and we'd go circle pit, come back and we were so excited that one day we had a bonfire.

We started burning our shirts, park shirts and Sharon Osbourne got got pretty upset with us when he had a fire on the premises.

So we had to shut it down for a little while but we came back by the end.

It's all.

All this bureaucracy, man, I'm sorry to hear that.

I think he's doing.

Something right if you're pissing off Sharon Osbourne.

I'll just, I'll just.

Say that I think that's that's fine.

Hey, you're.

You're you're overseas like they can't hurt you, I don't think, but.

They had rules and you break them and you didn't really get in that much that much trouble.

You know what I mean?

Like dudes were always, you know, stealing golf course everyone, you know, that's the thing.

But you just get pretty reckless on them.

I go off site and you know, one time Buzz got literally pulled over by a helicopter because on some his farm and you know, you're just doing really stupid shit and you wouldn't really get in that much trouble.

You get talking to.

But when you get kicked off the tour or anything.

I just have a very random question that I wanted to ask Trevor, but this is probably the only opportunity that I'll ever have to kind of put it to the man himself.

But I spoke about this on the last episode.

Trevor, the first time I saw you guys play was a tour run that you did here in Australia with Walls of Jericho and Mind Snare in 2007 just after three, just after three came out.

I was living in Brisbane at the time and I was 19 and I was working in a in a venue and do the liquor licensing.

We had to do like an all ages or like an under 18 show in the afternoon and then it was an 18 plus show like in the evening.

And I remember I was working on the bar in that venue and the under 18 show did not sell that many tickets.

And it was a very big room.

So it ended up being like very empty.

And then I remember the 18 plus show was like sold out.

So it was like Max full of people.

But the reason I'm bringing it up is because the the under 18 show for me was so fun because it was basically an empty show.

I vividly remember, like all of the crew and all of the bands just like pitting and having fun and just goofing off and being real silly.

And I remember like all of you guys were like pitting for mind snare.

And then everyone was like jumping around and throwing, you know, chairs and stools and stuff around for Walls of Jericho.

And it was like so, so fun.

And I just wanted to know, do you remember that show?

I know you've played like hundreds of shows, but does that tour or show stick out in your memory at all?

The tour does especially, but I had forgotten about about that particular game that's.

Fair.

I think it was more important for me than it was for you.

It's it's, it's the memory that's still there and that bands generally, if bands are getting along a tour, when you have a dud show, you generally do that.

And there was there's one show I remember we played 1000 Cap Room in Austria.

It was US everything, Terrorist Bane and Casey Jones.

It was pretty good tour package.

We did 1900 tickets in in in Lunen, Germany.

We did 40 tickets in Australia.

We made no same tour like a week later, 40 people.

And so we we danced all the bands this thing alongs during our set.

We brought all the backstage booze on stage.

We invited everyone from the crowd to come up and just have an open bar.

We had a girl, we had a wall of death on stage, which we've done that in a couple cities, one in Luxembourg years ago, because it's a small place when a lot of people and you, you don't go somewhere to suck.

And so if the show doesn't have the energy, you kind of make it yourself.

And then you give people a memory that did did come to come to get you don't want to take it out on people that came, you know what I mean?

And so just have fun.

RIP it.

And but that that was just that that didn't make any sense to us because we were literally there two years before with Atreyu when we did the the the day and night thing, the matinee with the underage.

And then but they're both sell out.

So it did show us a sharp contrast from playing, you know, more melodic sing, sing songy metal core to aggressive metal core that you don't have the youth really, You know, we had, we had the 18 / a crowd and the kids didn't really want to go.

So we kind of stopped doing those.

I think we gave a couple more shot, but don't make much sense.

He's in their 40s now, yeah.

I mean, it was just a weird like thing with the the way that the liquor licensing worked.

And like, I think it's all changed now and like then now they just do like a licensed all ages show.

So like you wouldn't have to split the the bass by that kind of way.

But I went to that venue for like a year or two and all of those under 18 shows sold poorly, regardless of the bands.

Like there just wasn't really kids weren't being like, oh, we should go to the nightclub for the under 18 show.

You know what I mean?

Like the the ticket draw wasn't really there.

But I still just it sticks out of my mind because I got to I got to hear you guys crush it to a room of like 20 people and I got to pit to all of my favorite songs and I was just like this, this fucking rocks.

Like how often do you get this opportunity?

Not very often.

So it was.

It was sad to.

Share that, that experience with them.

That was.

Thank you, Sir, That.

That was a fun tour.

Really fun tour, Yeah?

And listen to Mindsnare.

I said this on the episode last time, but one of the greatest exports that that Australia's ever produced.

They're like your favorite hardcore bands.

Favorite band?

They're the fucking goats.

Yeah, they're great, Good, good tour mates.

Killer band, awesome live too.

So it's a really fun time on that tour already.

The last one tour was Perth and we had there's like a dance dance night after at the at the hi-fi.

So it's called, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So we.

And all of us went in.

We danced.

We're not dancers, but we just fucked around and danced.

Yeah.

That's what's up.

Good, good.

Vibes.

Well, I don't, I don't want to take up too much more of your time.

You've already like spent so much with us and, and I really appreciate it.

Maybe they kind of like put a pin on destroy the machines when you listen to this record or like maybe even like a few years down the road or if you're sharing it to someone, you know, what do you, what do you hope they get out of you?

What do you hope the legacy of this particular record is?

Or Earth Crisis in general?

Like, what do you hope people will, you know, find when they listen to this album?

I just want them to hear how good the, the record is.

I think sometimes people might get trapped in what's, what's out, what's new, that's that's good.

And they don't listen.

They don't go backwards.

And that's, you know, what I mentioned earlier today, how you know, we meet me and my friends, we found thrash first and then went backwards to Sabbath, You know, priest, we found the older stuff later.

And even if we got we got older, then we then we kind of discovered DO Sabbath because that wasn't really, you know, pushed on us when we're younger.

You should always find stuff that was before you, because there are a lot of great records that formed what you're listening to today.

So I think that it's a great record.

I think it is an all time great and I don't I don't believe I'm understanding that.

I think it's one of the most important records in metal core history.

I know it leans more into the hardcore world, but it's so metallic that it it really did help form what you know modern metal course sounds like.

Yeah, I couldn't.

I couldn't agree more.

One thing we like to do before we close out the show, you know, as far as like stuff from our past that we've been listening to, is there anything as of late that you've been listening to that you think people should check out?

And it could be heavy, it could be none, it could be anything.

We'd love to hear about what you've been checking out.

Yeah, there's.

A band from Denmark called Mite Mite TK, they just put out AAI think there's EP.

It's brutally heavy.

See, let's get that right.

I'm using Cobuzz now.

You guys using that because they're a little more ethical than Spotify.

Apparently it's.

The best sound quality, too.

Like the highest, highest fidelity.

I've heard that.

Yeah.

Oh.

Shit.

I've noticed the only negative is sometimes takes a little longer to load.

Yeah, I I use YouTube Music and it's it's not as fast as Spotify.

It's not quite as optimized, but is slightly more ethical.

So there you go.

There you go.

You see it?

That's that's what it looks like.

OK, OK.

It's really good.

It's super heavy.

That's 10 songs.

They're short songs and more, more grindy.

But yeah, it's good.

Check that one out.

OK.

How are you?

What have you guys been listening to?

Anything.

I've got a bunch of stuff Australia has really kind of gone crazy with a bunch of stellar EPS this year, and for the podcast I'll be kind of running through some of my favourites.

But one that stands out, there's a band from NSW called Scram and they're quite literally teenagers.

I think most of the band is like 17 or 18.

They've just put out a demo.

It's called the the Yamba demo, which is like the town from New South Wales that they're from.

So sick.

It's like kids doing Marauder kickback full, just like Windbreaker spin kick, fucking Metallica, of course shit.

And it fucking rocks.

It's so, so good.

Like light years heavier than the most bands, like double their age.

It's fucking psycho.

So it's on band camp.

You can go find it if I can rocks.

Hell yeah, Dill.

The.

Kid.

The kids are all right as it turns.

Out.

Few.

Things still at the tail end of the year here, but there's still great releases being are coming out.

The new Blood US Nord album, Ethereal Horizon, Jeff had it right.

Great atmospheric black metal, really weird, a lot of psychedelia involved with it.

Really fun listen if you're into that.

But for the heavy side, The really heavy side.

I'm still listening and enjoying the newest thing with Soge Bog album Hideous Aftermath.

That thing is wild.

It's as Knuckle Dragon as it gets and I fucking love it.

And one more band I just discovered within the last couple of weeks, Weeping Spiritual Barbarianism is the most recent release.

It's like it's death, it's grind, it's power, violence.

It's got some of the most abrasive vocals I've ever heard on any recording on it.

It's like 14 minutes, 10 songs.

They just they were on that most recent Vitriol tour that not going into that, but things fall apart.

What happened?

Check that band out, leaving that one alone.

Check that band out.

But that's what I've got going on.

Sick.

I picked a real calm one this week.

I was up in Wisconsin.

I saw a copy of this.

I had to pick it up.

Old Pig Destroyer, Phantom Limb for Virginia.

Some some, yeah, great John Baisley artwork there.

Incredible.

Virginia, some Massachusetts tie in there.

But yeah, some of my fucking favorite riffs.

Heathen Temple.

Amazing.

It's just so much fun.

Listen to like Terror Fire into this record.

Perfect.

And then listen to On Earth.

Yes, great record.

We love that record.

Trevor, you said you're working on a new record, right?

Or you're starting to yes, Hell yeah, Let's go 2026.

Yeah, to be in the studio by late summer, early fall 2026, that's the goal.

We'll see if we can, we can.

We can fall, fall in line and write fast enough.

But that is the goal right now.

So I would expect that in 2027 for sure.

Yeah.

Are you planning to go to Will again or are you going to mix things up?

I love tracking with Will.

We haven't made the final decision.

I'm not sure if Will is available when we have to get in because he's so busy.

Busy guy, very busy.

Extremely talented guy too, so I'd always love to work with him.

Yeah, I hear.

Ross Robinson might have a have an opening.

If you.

If you want to hit him up.

I work with anybody man, go for it, I love it.

I know you just got done with like a handful of shows, but anything on the horizon that you, if you can disclose or just, I don't know.

I mean, with the year closing, looking ahead, is there anything you want to accomplish as as a band or just in life in yourself?

Like what?

What do you look forward to in the next year?

With the band we, this was our last gig for a while.

We did have a Latin American tour that was supposed to be in February, but that's being pushed back to.

It looks like probably May, but nothing's confirmed.

So we began to say exactly the smell of stuff we're working on internationally for May and June, looking for one more tour that kind of finished out the The Wretched album cycle.

We submitted for a few for the spring.

We're not sure if we're going to do it.

If it's not the right tour, we just shut it down and spend that time to write.

But the only thing that's confirmed in the books right now is in July, July and August we have some some gigs in Europe and we'll be, we'll be doing kind of a festival run with clubs in between.

So that's the only thing really fully confirmed.

But there'll be some stuff.

But for now it's just us focusing on writing the record.

Yeah, could be home and figure out, you know, home life and family and everything.

Perfect.

Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what comes next.

And dude, thank you again so much.

I I we been talking for a little while now here and I really appreciate just getting to pick your brain about some of the shit.

So thanks for having.

Me.

Here it was.

It was good talking to guys and good to catch up about everything.

And you guys do a good job with research and everything.

It's easy to recall things that way.

Spawn memory from 27 years ago.

Yeah, yeah.

I just want to say Dylan Austin, thank you for having me on your show again.

I appreciate the call up and the opportunity to chat to Trevor.

So, so sick.

Yeah, doors always open for, you know, most people.

But thanks for thanks for checking us out.

Follow on Earth, follow the pitch of discontent.

Great podcast.

You can follow us, I guess, but for myself, for Dylan, for Owen, for Trevor.

You've been listening to RIFF Worship.

We'll be back next week with somehow.

See ya See.

Ya.