[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the Integrated Schools podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Andrew, a White Dad from Denver.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Val, a, Black Mom from North Carolina.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is Reflections on Season Eleven.

[SPEAKER_02]: Val, we made it to the end of another season of the podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Podcast has been going for almost seven years.

[SPEAKER_02]: You've been with us for almost four years.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is wild.

[SPEAKER_01]: I gave you, I gave you thirty days.

[SPEAKER_01]: And here I am.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Almost four years later.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's been a meaningful year.

[SPEAKER_02]: It has been a meaningful year.

[SPEAKER_02]: The season started back in September.

[SPEAKER_02]: The world feels like a pretty different place than it did back then.

[SPEAKER_01]: One hundred percent when we started the season, there was a different buzz in the air about what was possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now we're living with reality of what is.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: We knew it was a possible outcome, but certainly had not fully grappled with what it might mean for this to be the world we were living in.

[SPEAKER_02]: But here we are.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: We thought we'd take a little time today to reflect on some of the highlights from the season, sort of where we are in our lives right now and what we're hoping for for next season.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So before we get into the season talk, let's get personal real quick.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I have a major milestone.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I have now a rising senior and a rising junior coming up on the end.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know we've teased a lot about me getting to my exit strategy here in terms of [SPEAKER_01]: K-Twelve Education and it was a blink.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was a blink.

[SPEAKER_01]: I cannot believe we're here.

[SPEAKER_01]: We moved to North Carolina when my children were in sixth and seventh grade.

[SPEAKER_01]: And already we're doing things like we have already booked senior pictures.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: We just created an account for the Common App, which is the college admissions platform.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to learn a lot this year.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm super excited about it and I was expecting a kind of different worlds to send them off in.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they're graduating in twenty six and twenty seven and who knows?

[SPEAKER_01]: Who knows what it's going to be like for the next couple of years as they try to navigate school and what colleges and universities are going to be able to fill the freedom to do and talk about.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm excited if I am crying every episode next season.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like my usual tears.

[SPEAKER_01]: These are not the likes of premise we had.

[SPEAKER_01]: These are different to yours.

[SPEAKER_01]: These are, are thinking about the ways in which our family is going to transform over the next little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm just going to ask for the call early.

[SPEAKER_01]: If there, if we have any listeners who have just finished this journey and want to come and talk to me, I'd appreciate it.

[SPEAKER_02]: How about you?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Also, also a big transition year, my youngest finished elementary school and my oldest finished middle school.

[SPEAKER_02]: We spent nine years at our elementary school between the oldest and the youngest on the way to school this morning, figured probably have done the drive back and forth about three thousand times.

[SPEAKER_02]: Quite twice a day, hundred and eighty something times a year for nine years is kind of crazy to think about.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because what else has that kind of consistency, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: How excited are you about high school and that beginning?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited for them both to start on sort of new journeys and take on new challenges.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, nine years is a long time to spend in one school community and that school has really changed a lot over those nine years.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think everybody's ready for something new.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think particularly from my oldest, she's been ready for high school level freedom and flexibility for a while and it's driving her a little crazy.

[SPEAKER_02]: tight grip that the middle school has on kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think she's excited about that and excited for her to, you know, find things that she's really passionate about and excited about and pursue those with a little more space than necessarily as possible in middle school.

[SPEAKER_02]: And for the youngest, yeah, just like to be somewhere new.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's the only school she's ever gone to since she was three.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, for her to have a new environment and new, new friends and new things to explore.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think she has also ready for the increased freedom and flexibility that comes [SPEAKER_02]: with middle school and it's yeah, it's a big it feels like a big sort of momentous change for everybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm so glad we're still in this together.

[SPEAKER_02]: Me too.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure our our stories about the first day of school next season and all the milestones that will happen for our young people will make its presence in the conversation.

[SPEAKER_02]: So absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: Stay tuned, Joe.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was a good season.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had a lot of great episodes, but we also had some big milestones for the podcast itself.

[SPEAKER_02]: We won a signal award.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh.

[SPEAKER_02]: For anybody watching on YouTube, you can see our signal award here.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a beauty.

[SPEAKER_02]: Beautiful.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a beauty there.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we were nominated for two ambees.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was also very exciting.

[SPEAKER_02]: We did not win sadly, but [SPEAKER_02]: did get to go to the award ceremony in Chicago, which was very exciting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But they are finally putting respect on our name.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, you got to win the second place before you win the first place.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're on the right check.

[SPEAKER_02]: An honor being nominated for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we started broadcasting on Columbus Community Radio.

[SPEAKER_02]: So episodes are going out there every month.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, out here in the public.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's so fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: which is very exciting.

[SPEAKER_02]: We grew our Patreon support over the course of the season.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, just had some real recognition, I think, for all the work that goes in here.

[SPEAKER_01]: I need our listeners to understand.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, my co-host is the man.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so if there is a good episode, it is because of him not only your technical skill, my friend, but your care and consideration and prepping for each interview for making sure that I always sound good.

[SPEAKER_01]: And just for bringing your full self to these conversations, I think that is what makes our podcast special.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think we are authentic in how we show up.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think people can connect to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I've seen you grow and change and be challenged and pushed and pushed me, you know, throughout these almost four years that we've been doing this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate that it has certainly been a real journey in something that I am constantly grateful for all the conversations that I get to be a part of with our guests and then with you it's really yeah certainly a highlight of my year has been all the work on this podcast that continues to come to listeners entirely less and are supported we have yet to sell you any underwear or toothbrushes or [SPEAKER_01]: Not yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let us give big though.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's definitely grateful for all of the listeners out there who have sent messages and emails and voice memos and continue to support us financially as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: We appreciate you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So looking back, season eleven, we had a number of great episodes.

[SPEAKER_02]: What stands out to you, Valesa, some highlights.

[SPEAKER_01]: Seriously, you're going to jump right in and ask me how to pick highlights from this amazing season.

[SPEAKER_01]: Things that I am always thinking about and constantly like referring to, Susan and Elias, gratitude and validation, one family journey through integrated schools.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was the episode with Susan and our chapter leader in Lancaster and her son Elias talking about Elias expressing some gratitude for the choices that his parents made about sending him to integrating schools and the two of them came on to talk about it, which was really powerful.

[SPEAKER_01]: And as adults, we talk a lot about the importance of being a part of integrated school, how it's nothing to be afraid of, and how beautiful things can happen when you are in these spaces and you're cared for and loved on by high quality educators.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so to have a young person come and say that and make it seem so simple and plain, you know, I didn't always trust young people's perception of [SPEAKER_01]: What was going on?

[SPEAKER_01]: But they know.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if we listen, they will tell us, I'm just thankful that we were able to have that episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's my first pick.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was definitely a special episode for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Anytime we get into the parent and caregiver and student conversations, there's always great stuff that comes from that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think something else the way the season played out is [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like we had some of the more nuanced conversations that we've had on the podcast where we might have gone and thinking something and then met with different information and pushed us in a way.

[SPEAKER_01]: So one thing I'm thinking about is how schools make race with Dr.

Laura Chavez-Marina.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there were times that I really struggled with even understanding some of what she was saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that I felt that a couple of times throughout the season.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that that conversation with Dr.

Chavez Morano was great because this idea of like race is a concept that is designed to divide us.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there is real social benefit to having a racial identity for many people.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this idea of being post-race without ignoring race.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we really sat with that one for a while.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was tricky.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was tricky.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think the other one that definitely took a lot of grappling and we spent a long time with that certainly was pushed me and challenged me in the number of ways was lies and moral deficiencies with Greg Gerald about whiteness, his story about kind of the white church and its role in gentrification, its role in urban renewal, but also the historical roots of whiteness and the issues with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: We certainly didn't hold back in that episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the title says a lot lies and [SPEAKER_02]: moral deficiencies, which is something that he had said about the roots of whiteness that definitely was a nuanced conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not long after that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Dr.

Noli Wei Brooks came on and talked to us about the failures of integration.

[SPEAKER_01]: And here we are, you know, for modding the thing where she argues passionately that so much was lost in this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And do we still continue this path if there are folks who aren't interested in walking with us?

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is something that [SPEAKER_01]: We believe in, and to hear her ideas, to make sense of her ideas, to grapple with her ideas.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was just a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whenever I think about the sacred black spaces that were lost in integration, I mourn those.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, certainly, if anybody came to this season looking for uncomplicated clear takes on things like race and integration and schools, we did not provide that this season.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, in an era where nuances often hard to come by and one thing that I'm certainly grateful for is this space where we can really dig into those nuanced things where we can have the integrated schools podcast where really we believe in this mission of [SPEAKER_02]: true integration that looks different than anything we've ever done before, but that is about, you know, finding way through together.

[SPEAKER_02]: And grapple with, you know, the place where Dr.

Brooks ends up, at least right now, which is, you know, she feels like maybe we need to give separate but equal to try.

[SPEAKER_02]: And certainly that's not where I am.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think like how she got there is as well earned.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's valuable to sit and grapple with that and take seriously how she ended up there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want to speak for her, but I think one way she ended up there that came up in episodes throughout the season as well is the lack of love.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so this season, we talked about love as being central to the world that we're trying to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it came up from different guests.

[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't like prime them on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it became like a running kind of theme about the importance of love in this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what what Dr.

Brooks realized is like love was missing in so many of those original integration efforts that it was doomed to fail because love was necessary for it to succeed.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, which is exactly what Dr.

Goldie Muhammad said in her episode that came after that about teaching with love and that kind of underlying all of her ideas about what it takes to actually teach well is that it's got to start with love and Dr.

Eve Ewing also talked about the power of love and that Dr.

that Dr.

Ewing episode was definitely one of the highlights for me of the same time I think her [SPEAKER_02]: Clear I'd look at the construction of American racism that you can't really understand education without understanding its role in the construction of racism.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can't really understand where we are without looking squarely at at the original sins which is the title of her book of the country of settler colonialism genocide against native peoples and [SPEAKER_02]: child slavery that those kind of original sins continue to shape so much of our country and so much of that shaping is done through the education system.

[SPEAKER_02]: Dr.

Ewing was great and then we had to read to us from her book which was one of the first times we had done that and that was very powerful.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Dr.

Ewing, brilliant thinker, hilarious.

[SPEAKER_01]: And as you mentioned, clear eye on the impacts of the ways in which our systems were created and who they were created for and who they were created upon, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's another thing that I just feel incredibly grateful for to all of our guests.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are so gracious with us.

[SPEAKER_01]: They come on and they are [SPEAKER_01]: are open and thoughtful and reflective, and they allow us to dig deep into some things that they are thinking and their ideas.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think sharing of ideas, especially as an academic, is a practice and vulnerability, because, you know, you're holding these things close, and you bring them on to talk about them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you don't know how they're going to float away, and they trust us with those ideas, so I'm grateful.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm very grateful for that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we had some incredible thinkers, Michelle Adams, talked about the, you know, milk and be Bradley decision that, you know, her interest in came out of growing up into Troy and her own experience going to school and Detroit and her parents, the decisions that they made for her and for her schooling in the context of Detroit that then is where the milk and be Bradley case was was seated that really led her to writing this book that was so powerful.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like again, her story is long with Dr.

Brooks, rooted in personal family history, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a reminder this season that so much of what we experience is rooted in that personal family history if we just look hard enough for it, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: We come from a place where our parents, our grandparents, our great-grandparents, all had experiences with schools that were defining in some way.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for our grandparents who may have had segregated experiences, I can speak for mine, she was happy.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was happy for my father who integrated schools.

[SPEAKER_01]: That was tumultuous, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And so knowing that it is in our family history as well and that we shouldn't look past our family's histories when we're trying to understand the story is an important reminder.

[SPEAKER_02]: Those personal stories are so powerful.

[SPEAKER_02]: Another episode that stands out is the first one, Sandra Mitchell, who shared her own story of desegregating school in Virginia in nineteen sixty three and we got to share clips of the conversation she had with her father, the Reverend Grady Powell that was just, yeah, amazing, incredibly impressive man and to be able to sort of share her story that hadn't really been told in many places felt like a real privilege.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Sandra Mitchell, just in her professional life, has been involved with this work for so long, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And there were two episodes that gathered together folks that are working on behalf of these efforts as a part of their daily job.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm thinking about the wonderful folks that you met at the NCSD conference where you had live recordings there and had some reaction.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then also our friends at Brown's Promise, Ari and Saba.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then also we had our good friend, I'm calling her right here.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hope they, I hope they know.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's part of the contract when you come.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Do they all George who like really kick this off with deny the fun divert, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: In terms of the ways in which our efforts have been thwarted for decades.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a reminder that there are lots of people who care about school integration.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of people out there working on it and working on it from various different perspectives and with various different approaches to making change.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think particularly in the wake of the election, remembering that those people are out there remembering those people are doing their work that even when it feels like kind of the dominant narrative that you're hearing is so much pushback.

[SPEAKER_02]: to anything related to racial justice, anything related to diversity at all to integration feels like there's like a cultural moment pushing back against that in so many ways that those voices that we're pushing back are allowed but there are lots of people out there who are continuing to do this work who continue to be committed to it and [SPEAKER_02]: Certainly the episode finding hope together that featured audio from this conference from the National Coalition on School Diversity, that reminder that people out there, people care that even if we're not hearing their voices in the news every day, that those people are out there every day doing the work and trying to make our school system work better, trying to help set our kids up for a future that we all want to live in.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing else that felt clear the season is the power of caregivers in these spaces.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the last two episodes are the ones I'm thinking about advocating for black educator wellness with Dr.

Asia Lions and then the intersection of private decisions and public responsibility.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's Dr.

Stephanie and Dr.

Lisa?

[SPEAKER_01]: And Dr.

Asia's episode, she talks about how parents in their resistance to any social justice education at the time was the lever that pushed her out of teaching.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, she told the story of the parents of seventeen kids pulling their kids out of her social justice class.

[SPEAKER_02]: that had been approved by the school had been taught many years in a row, but then in the wake of Trump's first election, parents not wanting to have their kids learn those things anymore, and the power that those small group of parents had that eventually ended up pushing her out of education altogether.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thankfully, she landed softly in a way that has helped educators around the country, and specifically in her home state of Colorado.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it's a reminder that, you know, we often talk about how you show up really matters that it is important to show up.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is important to use your voice and it's important to be thoughtful about who you're using your voice on behalf of and for what end because there is the power when parents come together to really actually make change, which has this [SPEAKER_02]: Potential to be really positive, you know, we want to harness the power of parents to advocate on behalf of their kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if it's used in a way that is not thoughtful, if it's used in a way that is for a small handful of kids and not the whole school community, that it can really be detrimental.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which takes us to our last episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, we listen and we don't judge.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a position we had to adopt in this last episode, because I think we are our strong public school advocates.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because at first time, we really dug into private schools as a topic on the podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: We haven't talked much about private schools in part because they don't tend to make up a huge portion of kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we both, I think, come with a certain degree of skepticism about that choice because it feels like it is opting out of this collective good that I think we both believe in is [SPEAKER_02]: as something that is crucial to having a democracy, having a function country, as the public education system.

[SPEAKER_01]: I certainly have feelings I recognize in that episode around what happens when feel like the public school is failing until you choose the private option, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And all I could hear in part of that interview was like public schools on enough, people in public schools are enough.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want better, I want more.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the part that feels personal.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yet we recognize that people are making those decisions for various reasons.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, certainly definitely another place where I was pushed to think more deeply about it and it definitely generated some feedback as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: Want to share a little bit of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.

[SPEAKER_02]: Positive and also grappling kind of feedback.

[SPEAKER_02]: So Tara and Connecticut.

[SPEAKER_02]: said I really needed this episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've been feeling super exhausted navigating this conversation locally.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I often fall back into judging because it's easier and less ambiguous, but that's not how we change hearts and minds.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so Tara was grateful for the ways that that conversation pushed her.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then Susan, Elias's mom, Susan, wrote in, she says, I always think areas where we can expand compassion anywhere is necessary.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I applaud Dr.

Valene Andrew for attempting that with this episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think for folks who have been in terrible situations with their children and are desperate for a leaf, but yet are struggling with the ethical piece of school choice, I hope they feel seen by this episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: Personally, I struggled with this episode, because I found that the aforementioned folks are the exception to the rule.

[SPEAKER_02]: In our community, the rule is white parents' opportunity hoarding and placing blame on the under-resourced school, [SPEAKER_02]: or the children or the teachers in those schools when it's really their panic that their children won't get the absolute best to the best.

[SPEAKER_02]: The awfulness of white supremacy is that the system will ensure that their kids get the best of the best no matter where they go, and that's where my judgment kicks in.

[SPEAKER_02]: This episode made me realize that there are times when I've talked to parents whose kids are clearly in pain and they're struggling with this decision.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I try to exercise compassion in those situations.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think that that's the case most often.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I found myself going back to the judgment part a lot during this combo.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not usually irritated during an episode, but I was during this one, which I found interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, thank you, Val and Andrew for your courage in doing this one.

[SPEAKER_02]: And continue to try to open minds and hearts.

[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate the space to have these combos.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that sounds like we need wine and cheese.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Susan.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think your response is the exact type of tension that is worth engaging in as you work to be the best human you want to be for the best community you want to help build, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the challenge.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have the answers because I love many of these episodes confused.

[SPEAKER_02]: And still grab like, and I mean, particularly on the private school front, you know, something that Anna from our leadership team says there's this like white parent tendency to, she calls it like terminal uniqueness, like my kid is the exception.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you know, sort of as soon as their door is open for this is what people should do unless [SPEAKER_02]: White folks will try to cram themselves into that unless door.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that the idea that Dr.

Stephanie and Lisa mentioned there's not like a scale you can use to say this is a legitimate exiting of public school or this is in or this is enough of a challenge in the public school system to justify it or not is is real and it's at its heart and something to call Hannah Jones says is like [SPEAKER_02]: White parents will always try to talk to her and sort of say like, yeah, I know I should but like here's my unique situation trying to get her to like absolve them of the choice they made and she says she will never give them that absolute that like if that's where you ended up that's where you ended up but you should be grappling with that you should sit with that that should feel like a heavy hard choice and maybe it is the right choice in the end, but it shouldn't be an easy choice.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do think like trying to hold that space for that conversation and we grappled with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: We sat and listened and tried not to judge as best we could and it feels like particularly in this moment where public education is under attack in so many places that we really need everybody to to speak up in favor of public schools and we we need to call in as many people as we can to the mission of [SPEAKER_02]: well-funded, well-resourced, public integrated schools that are teaching honest history, that is our only hope if we are going to get through this period in the country.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so the places where I find myself inclined to close off pushing now to open up to welcome more people into sitting that nuance a little more.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad you mentioned holding space, holding space requires a significant courage, intellectual curiosity, humanity, patience, patience.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I am of the belief that everyone has a bridge.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I might not be the bridge for every person.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I can connect to someone who can connect to someone, who can connect to someone, who can connect to someone, and that bridge ends up being significantly longer than just a conversation between me and one other person.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's to me worth the investment.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now I will tell you, this is completely selfish decision.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to save my life and the life of my kids and everyone I love.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is what I understand the work to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that everyone feels like it's their work to try to be those bridges, to try to hold space.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that everyone has the capacity to do so.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I do believe that everyone can be reached.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't be who I was if I just stopped there with the railway people and we can't throw anybody away.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it is hard work.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is hard work.

[SPEAKER_01]: It takes a lot of energy and you don't always know that it's gonna pan out the way that you hoped and it might be years and just station.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that idea of planting seeds feels powerful to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's the like West Wingified version of the world where like the right speech at the right time makes somebody change their mind and then you feel like great.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'd said the right thing in the right way with the right words and now that person has totally changed their opinion and it doesn't like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: When is that ever happened?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like in an idea where I'm sure, but like that's not what actually happens.

[SPEAKER_02]: What happens is you plant a little seed what happens is you [SPEAKER_02]: Send somebody to bed that night with this little nagging thing in the back of their mind.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I'm wondering about that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then another three weeks go by and then you have another conversation.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you plant another little seed and you water it a little more.

[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe not always, but sometimes in the best version of it several months, years, whatever down the road, that little seed has germinated.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's something to take root there that is now starting to grow that is starting to push people to think in a different way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's the difference between folks who are willing to cultivate these relationships in order to get a deeper understanding of what others are thinking versus someone who is steadfast and wants to cut you down because you think differently.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't see any benefit of being that latter example.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to cut people down who don't agree with me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I also don't always have to entertain them, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's okay, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: But certainly, I want to be characterized as someone who is committed to that cultivation of meaningful relationships where the goal is some type of common ground for the common good.

[SPEAKER_02]: without abandoning principles, without abandoning humanity, without abandoning things that are non-negotiable and while looking for the places of overlap and shared humanity.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's ultimately the promise of well integrated schools is giving our kids access to those spaces from the time they're little.

[SPEAKER_02]: is teaching them that that's the way that we interact in the world and giving them a little, you know, many version of that, as they're starting to make friends, as they're starting to realize who they are as people, because it's so much less work when they're little kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's so much more naturally inclined to do it when they're little kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we hope we raise a world where you drive by and you forget why that wall is there.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're like, let's take it down.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, what's we do there recap?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, dang, no wonder we're winning awards out here.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're awesome.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this will wrap up season eleven.

[SPEAKER_02]: We'll take a little break.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe a couple of bonus episodes over the summer.

[SPEAKER_02]: We'll see how things go.

[SPEAKER_02]: But be back for real in the fall for the next season.

[SPEAKER_02]: What are you hopeful for for season twelve now?

[SPEAKER_01]: My hope for season twelve is that we can continue to get rocks our guests to come on and share their best thinking with us.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would love more parent episodes because I think those help listeners connect to the real moments that caregivers are having around some of these issues and conversations.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hope that we continue to develop.

[SPEAKER_01]: We continue to grow.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's my hope for season twelve.

[SPEAKER_01]: How about you?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I share that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think continuing to hold space for nuanced thoughtful conversations to continue to deepen our relationship and explore the places where we agree in those places where we disagree and do it in a way that is hopefully serves as an example of how we can have cross-racial conversations about hard topics that leave us in a stronger position than when we started.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, more guests and maybe a sponsor to some more Patreon supporters.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to have a face-to-face event where we can just bring people together, have our favorite beverage and favorite piece of cheese, and just talk, you know, and so another live, another live opportunity would be awesome.

[SPEAKER_02]: Another live show would be great.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you have a great location and think that a live show in your city would be well attended, hit us up.

[SPEAKER_02]: We would like to talk about that podcast and integrate schools.org.

[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, if you've got a story to tell, we want to hear about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Your story might become its own episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: So don't be afraid to tell your story.

[SPEAKER_02]: Send us a voice memo.

[SPEAKER_02]: We listen to them all.

[SPEAKER_02]: Even if they don't necessarily fit in a particular episode, they are all filtering and unshaping the things we're thinking about for future conversations for the next season and the ways that we're doing that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we are always grateful.

[SPEAKER_02]: To hear from you, speakpipe.com slash integrated schools, SP, EAKPIP.com slash integrated schools.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're not sending your kids to really expensive summer camp, then since somebody does, that's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can go to integratedschools.org and close on the Big Red Donate button.

[SPEAKER_01]: You help contribute to the organization specifically to the podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: Every dollar helps.

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you can buy merch now.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have integrated schools, merch, public school saved democracies, t-shirts and sweatshirts and tank tops.

[SPEAKER_02]: I got two.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've got two as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: My kids have them.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're wearing them to school.

[SPEAKER_02]: Their teachers are all very pleased, I think.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're getting some probably extra credit from their teachers for learning about what schools they have democracy shirts to school.

[SPEAKER_02]: So they'll be link in the show notes and on the website there's a link to our store where we can buy those.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so this is just, see you in a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just no Andrew and I are working constantly behind the scenes.

[SPEAKER_01]: We try to get ahead of schedule.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I work out in our favoring.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes sometimes I sometimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: We will be listening to your voice and the most awesome as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: So just because we're on a break doesn't mean that we are not back here working.

[SPEAKER_02]: Val, thank you for this season.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for your friendship.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for all of the conversations we get to have.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is truly an honor for me to be in this with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to know better.

[SPEAKER_01]: Until next week.