Hello and welcome to Talking Tudors, a fortnightly podcast about the ever-fascinating Tudor dynasty.

My name is Natalie Gruniger and I'll be your host and guide on this journey through 16th century England.

Are you ready to step through the veil of time into the dazzling and dangerous world of the Tudor court?

Without further ado, it's time to talk Tudors.

Thank you.

Music.

Thank you.

Hello, everyone.

Welcome back to another episode of Talking Tudors.

I'm your host, Natalie Gruniger.

Thank you so much for joining me.

A few words about today's sponsor before we begin.

This episode is brought to you by Julia Harrington, an up-and-coming author whose debut novel reimagines the Hungarian court on the cusp of its most volatile and seductive years, told entirely through a bold, feminine lens.

Blending historical fiction and romance, Harrington's novel reclaims the voice of one of history's most infamous female figures, navigating the perils of love, power, and self-determination, before the world turns her into legend.

For readers who crave immersive historical fiction that brings the past to life through the eyes of the women who lived it, this story offers a fresh take on Tudor history, not just in subject, but in sensibility, driven by an original voice and nuanced execution.

Julia is currently building a vibrant community of Tudor history enthusiasts, sharing behind-the-scenes research, early material and reflections on power, legacy and womanhood as she seeks literary representation.

Join the court at julia-harrington-author.com or follow at juliaharrington-author to be part of the journey.

I'd also like to acknowledge and thank the generous listeners who continue to support Talking Tudors on Patreon and extend a heartfelt thank you to everyone who's taken the time to rate and review the show.

As an independent podcaster, this means a lot to me.

If you love the podcast and you never miss an episode, please consider joining the Talking Tudors Patreon community.

Visit patreon.com slash talkingtudors for more information.

Once you sign up, you'll have access to exclusive posts, additional monthly live talks, a member-only book club, patron-only monthly giveaways to name just a few of the rewards.

You can also support the podcast and share your love of Tudor history with the world by buying Talking Tudors merchandise.

Check out all the products at talkingtudors.threadless.com.

Now, on to today's episode.

I'm thrilled to welcome Kate McCaffrey back to the show to talk about a new portrait of William Carey that was recently unveiled at Heaver Castle.

Kate McCaffrey is the Castle Historian and Assistant Curator at Hever Castle in Kent.

She's also a Chase-funded doctoral researcher with the Centre for Medieval and Early Modern Studies at the University of Kent.

Kate has co-curated two exhibitions at Hever and co-written three accompanying books with Dr.

Owen Emerson.

In 2024, she led a large reinterpretation project in the castle called the Berlin Apartment, which saw the castle's greatest change in over a generation.

Her personal research has so far resulted in several groundbreaking discoveries in the books of ours of Anne Boleyn, Catherine of Aragon and Thomas Cromwell.

Let's dive straight into our conversation.

Welcome to Talking Tudors, Kate.

How are you?

Hello, I'm really well, thank you.

Thank you so much for having me.

Oh, I'm so excited to have you back on the show.

It has been a little while, so it would be wonderful if you could just introduce yourself, say hello to all our listeners and viewers, and tell us a little bit about you and your background.

Yes, of course.

So, my name is Kate McCaffrey, and I am the Castle Historian and Assistant Curator at Heber Castle, which is Anne Boleyn's beautiful childhood home in the depths of Kent, And I'm also a first-year funded PhD researcher at the University of Kent.

So I'm undertaking my doctorate and it's focusing on research that I began during my master's where I worked with Anne Boleyn's personal prayer books, her books of ours, and discovered some exciting things within them.

So I'm kind of furthering that in my doctorate.

And I'm also one third of the Tudor Trio, which is a kind of Patreon and events company that I do with my wonderful friends, Dr.

Erna Emerson and Dr.

Nicola Tapp.

Oh, wonderful.

I'm always raving about your research, Kate, I have to say.

Absolutely amazing.

And if you haven't listened to our episode that we've done, we've done a few, haven't we?

We've done one definitely about your research.

So please do that because it is absolutely fascinating and wonderful.

But today we're actually specifically going to be talking about William Carey.

Now, we are going to talk about a portrait, a recent acquisition by Hever Castle.

But before we do that, I thought we could maybe just set the scene a little bit.

And maybe you could tell us a little bit about William and what we know about him.

Yeah, absolutely.

William is a really fascinating figure because he's slightly shrouded in mystery still.

There's not a huge amount of kind of concrete information we have to kind of fully flesh him out in the same ways that we can.

For example, his more famous in-laws, Anne Boleyn, his sister-in-law, Thomas Boleyn, his father-in-law, even George Boleyn, his brother-in-law.

But we do know a few things.

We can kind of get the outline of his life and his character.

So for example, we know he was a favourite of King Henry VIII, and he was actually his third cousin as well.

So he had a kind of indirect or not strong kinship connection to the king.

He was a successful courtier.

He was an art collector.

He was also one of the king's favorite jousting partners alongside Thomas Boleyn and George Boleyn.

And he seems to have distinguished himself particularly in jousting at the infamous Field of Cloth of Gold event with Henry VIII and Francis I, where he really impressed on the jousting field.

And I think in many ways, William was the ideal Tudor courtier.

He had a kind of vaguely royal connection.

I think it was his father married a Beaufort heiress.

So that was his kind of connection to Henry, and it allowed him to bear the Beaufort arms, the court of Beaufort arms.

So he had a slight in at the court, but really it was his airs and graces and his charm and his wiles that sort of got him to where he was and where he became, which was one of Henry's closest friends.

And.

It was in about 1519 that he joined the gentlemen of the Privy Chamber.

He was made one of Henry VIII's gentlemen of the Privy Chamber, which at that point was an inaugural position.

It was kind of the first time that that was brought to the English court.

It came from the French court where that tradition began.

And I feel like it's a position we hear of fairly frequently in Tudor history, looking at maybe later Tudor courts.

But it's a really important position.

You know, William would have been in huge proximity to the king.

He would have been around him day and night.

You know, he jousted with him and partied with him, but he also slept on the pallet mattress at the foot of Henry's bed.

And we know that he supplied money for Henry's gambling.

And we see actually William taking a slightly larger role in Henry's finances in the 1520s.

He later becomes keeper of Greenwich Palace in 1526.

But in 1523, we see him paying out nearly £50,000 from the king's coffers at Greenwich Palace.

a lot of money for wars to be used against France in wars against France.

So he has a kind of role in Henry's finances.

I would say he seems to have been perhaps less successful in his own finances as when he dies, he leaves a lot of debt for his wife, Mary Boleyn, to kind of sort out and clean up.

And I think probably what he's most remembered for today is his marriage to Mary Boleyn.

But he was, of course, also struck down in the prime of his life, really.

He was only 33 when he died.

And it was a very sudden death from the horrible and virulent sweating sickness, which was a truly dreadful illness that victims sort of felt their first symptoms in the morning and were dead by afternoon.

So it was in the summer of 1528 in June, actually, which we launched a portrait William on the anniversary of his death just a few months ago.

And it was to Hiva, really, that that news of his death would have been delivered because Anne Philan and her father, Thomas Philan, also got the sweating sickness.

And they were at Hiva recovering and quarantining when they would have been brought that news, the sad news of William's premature death.

It is so sad, isn't it?

Because there was a number of prominent people that actually died during that particular epidemic.

And I'm just thinking George as well got sick.

He wasn't at home.

He was away.

So that's Anne George and Thomas Boleyn that all got the sickness or caught the swelling sickness and recovered.

I do think that's quite rare.

It's rare and interesting that they recovered only then to suffer this awful fate, which I just think is just, yeah, really cruel.

It's very cruel, isn't it?

Yeah, it really is.

But yes, you mentioned there that William, of course, marries Mary Boleyn.

So do we know when that marriage occurred and any other details about that relationship?

Yes.

So we actually know the date that they were married, which was the 4th of February, 1520, where William and Mary were married.

And they were actually married in the presence of the king.

So Henry was there.

he obviously we know he valued William as a close friend and Henry even made an offering of six shillings and eight pence in the mutual mass and so it's possible as well that he actually gave the bride away or essentially acted in that role of giving the bride away in the absence of Mary's father Thomas because he was likely on embassy in France at this time so Henry does play a prominent role in their initial wedding.

He then comes to play a role in a later marriage because there's rumors of his relationship with Mary.

Mary Boleyn becomes his mistress at a later date.

But at the time of William and Mary's marriage, it's a kind of ideal situation for both sides because William is a gentleman of the privy chamber.

He's a close friend of the king.

Mary has enjoyed a kind of international spell away in France.

She joined the train of Mary Tudor, of her 28th sister, when she married Louis XII of France.

So she was in France for a period of time.

She came back with the new Dowager Queen of France after that short-lived marriage.

And then she joins the English court.

So by the time of her marriage, she's one of the ladies-in-waiting to Catherine of Aragon.

So it's a kind of perfect English court union, really, between William and Mary at this time.

And I think it's the much that made real sense for them.

Yeah, absolutely.

And where do you fall, Kate, on the debate of the parentage of Mary for Luke's children?

Are they caries?

Are they tutors?

What are these children?

Very good question.

Yes.

So again, obviously, we know that Mary and Henry had a relationship at some point probably in the early to mid-1520s and but again we know precious little details about that relationship I think it's so difficult to say anything with certainty you know one of the main reasons we know that relationship occurred in the first place was because of an offhand comment from Henry when he's asked at a later date if he had essentially slept with all of the balloon women, Anne, Mary, and their mother, Elizabeth, and he sort of laughingly replies, never with the mother.

So it's awful, but that's really the sort of detail or documented detail we have of the extent of their relationship.

There has been a lot of speculation, as you say, about the parentage of Mary and William's children.

Their firstborn was a daughter called Catherine, Catherine Carey, and she was likely born by 1525.

And then they have a son called Henry, who was born in 1526.

Henry the King certainly never acknowledged either child, which I think is important because we know that he acknowledges his other son, Henry Fitzroy, by his mistress, Bessie Blount.

Now, perhaps he wouldn't have acknowledged a daughter publicly, perhaps that wasn't as important to him, but I think it's unlikely that they were the King's children.

And I think possibly the best evidence we have of that is actually the reaction and the relationship that Elizabeth I had with her carrie cousins.

We know Elizabeth is ruthless when it comes to rivals to her throne, including members of her own family.

She was incredibly, incredibly close to both Catherine and Henry.

Catherine became one of her favorite attendants and she was given an almost quasi-royal funeral when she died.

Elizabeth was deeply in mourning at her death, a kind of premature death.

And Henry was made Lord Hunsdon and appointed Lord Chamberlain.

And he also became patron of Shakespeare's company for players.

So.

Heaped kind of royal rewards on her cousins and great personal favour.

And I think it's clear that Elizabeth herself knew nothing of the rumours.

If these rumours existed, Elizabeth didn't know of them or she would have taken action.

So I personally don't think that they were Henry VIII's children.

But again, it's sort of hard to say with any real firm evidence either way.

Yes, it is.

It is.

And I think that portrait that exists that I'm sure you know, Kate, of Catherine Kerry.

That has encouraged people to believe in the story that she's Henry VIII because there is a resemblance.

But of course, you know, it's difficult to say with portraiture how much that actually resembled the person, etc.

But it's an interesting portrait.

So if our viewers and listeners haven't seen it, do go and have a look at the portrait of Catherine Kerry.

It is quite fascinating.

And the other thing I suppose is the idea that this was a relationship that lasted for a long time as in Mary and Henry's, when of course it could have been a one night stand.

It could have been something that was over as quickly as it started.

So I think that's, yeah, it's hard to say too much on that, isn't it?

We just don't know the details.

And that's the kind of fascinating part of it all that encourages this kind of salacious gossip, I think, in many ways, because we just don't know.

So it's sort of fun to speculate.

Exactly, exactly.

Well, let's turn our attention to the portrait that I mentioned earlier.

So a new portrait of William, recently unveiled at Hever Castle.

So tell us a little bit about this portrait and what it actually looks like.

Oh, so it's an absolutely beautiful portrait.

We're truly lucky to have this in Hever's collection now.

And Hever has one of the most impressive collections of Tudor portraits.

I may be biased, but I think that is true.

And this one really still stood out to us when it came into the archive and I saw it in person for the first time I was really blown away.

It's English school.

It's from circa 1580, so Elizabethan.

It's half length, it's oil on panel, and it bears a date and an inscription in the top left corner, which is in Latin and dates the portrait supposedly to 1526.

And in the top left corner, there's a beautifully delicately painted coat of arms, which belongs to William and features that both foot quartering.

And then William himself is painted on this kind of pale teal background.

I think his face is really gentle and sensitive and quite inquisitive as well.

He looks young and handsome.

He's kind of in his prime.

He's the image of the perfect Henrician courtier.

And he's dressed really sumptuously.

He has this wonderful black velvet cap and a black coat with mint lining and cloth of gold striped across his doublet.

One of his hands is tucked in his doublet and the other is holding a glove.

But one thing about Williams' clothing, which is quite interesting, is that it appears to be Henrichan above the waist, but Elizabethan below.

So, yes, it's a bit of a smash.

It's interesting.

But it's a beautiful portrait.

It really shines in person.

He seems so lifelike.

It's like he's about to step out of the painting and talk to you.

It's truly wonderful.

It is a stunning portrait.

And if you're watching us on YouTube, you may have just gotten a peek of it.

So, very lucky, very lucky.

So let's talk a little bit about, before we move on and talk more about the provenance and further details about this painting, can we talk a little bit about the Tudor tradition of commissioning what we like to call the corridor portraits?

Yes.

Yes, so this portrait is almost certainly a corridor portrait.

And it was really a kind of later Tudor trend, Elizabethan, even early Jacobean as well, this kind of trend of having portraits.

So often half length, they're quite substantial in size.

Commissioned to basically show both your allegiance and your loyalty to the crown and to the monarchs, but also to uphold your own heritage and your own ancestry.

So corridor portraits would often be displayed in long galleries.

You have a beautiful long gallery at Heber.

And in walking down that long gallery or that art gallery, the owners of the house would essentially be showing off both their wealth and their patronage of art by having these beautiful portraits.

But also their loyalty to the monarch there would be paintings of past and present monarchs but their family tree as well essentially it was a way to kind of show off your genealogy which we see with williams portrait in particular when we look at the time that that was produced it's a perfect example of a painting being commissioned at a later date in order to honor the people that you're related to essentially you know the tudors loved genealogy they love their family trees i I love family trees today.

I think they're family.

Yeah, me too.

They did as well back then.

So it's just a great visual way to show off, basically.

Oh, that long gallery, Kate, at Heber is just stunning.

Very special.

So, so beautiful.

I'd like one.

I'd like one on my phone.

Can you imagine?

I would absolutely love one.

We should just all move into Heber Castle together.

There's enough space for us.

Let's do a sleepover.

That's an idea now.

You're onto something.

So let's go back to the painting.

What do we know of the actual provenance of that particular artwork?

So the painting that we have at Hever dates, as I mentioned, to around 1580.

And it's thought to have been commissioned by Henry Carey, who we mentioned, William's son, Lord Hunsdon.

So.

He added a long gallery to his London house, which was called Brook House, in around 1580.

And it seems perhaps that he commissioned this portrait in keeping with that trend of corridor portraits at around the same time that he adds this gallery to his house to kind of display this beautiful image of his father.

Featuring, of course, the coat of arms with that royal link and the Beaufort link, again, to show off their allegiance and their links to the monarchy.

But the portrait itself is really rare because there's only two known portraits of William that survive today and so this example is the later of the two it was extensively researched by the antiquarian Hugh Padgett who bought it in 1958 and also by A.

Fletcher who kind of pioneered dendrochronology in the 1970s so Padgett thought that this portrait was an original because of that inscription of the date in the top left corner which reads 1526 but Fletcher then dated the panel that this portrait's painted on and it's a tree that was felled after 1570 obviously meaning that this couldn't be contemporary to William's lifetime and again that tracks I think with the clothing that I mentioned the fact that it's sort of Henrician on the top and slightly Elizabethan below the waist.

But the other copy of this portrait is actually held in a private collection in Ireland.

And I think it was last exhibited in 1991 as part of an exhibition at the National Maritime Museum.

And in that version, which is very similar, one of the main differences is that William Carey's holding a book instead of a glove, which we see in our portrait.

And so it seems what's been kind of concluded from both of these is that both full-length portraits or half-size portraits have been painted from a miniature.

So they have been taken from the same miniature, which would account for the similarities, but the fact they've been extended would account for the differences.

And again, that weird Elizabethan clothing below the waist.

So the actual artist of our portrait is unknown.

We don't know who exactly painted it, but it's had a really long association with the famous court painter of miniatures, Lucas Hornboots, who was a Flemish artist who really flourished in the English court after he arrived there, likely under the reign of Queen Catherine of Aragon.

And interestingly, the other surviving portraits, the one in the Irish collection, has been linked to another famous Tudor court painter, Hans Holbein the Younger, who was formerly thought to have actually painted that version himself.

So, both paintings hold this kind of illustrious but quite mysterious supposed provenance.

And I think the kind of general consensus from many art historians today is that both of them, again, are based on a miniature.

And that miniature was painted by Lucas Hornboot.

So, we see the Hornboot influence.

It was from a miniature that has then been copied and sort of extended into these half-length portraits that are more corridor style.

So it's quite an interesting kind of complex history this portrait has.

But it's lovely to see those links from contemporary celebrated painters in the 1520s through to 1580 when William's son likely commissioned this portrait.

What a wonderful backstory.

So the panel portrait that's in Ireland in the private collection, is that a later date as well?

So that's not contemporary to William's life?

Yes, it's also, as far as I know, it's not contemporary to William's life either.

There's not a huge amount known about that launching because obviously it's in that private collection.

It makes sense, doesn't it?

Because if you've got a miniature, obviously miniatures aren't displayed on walls.

You know, they're very private, intimate pieces of art, aren't they?

Almost like a jewel that you keep safe.

Whereas if you want to show off your ancestry or whatnot, you need a portrait on the wall, don't you?

On your long gallery.

Absolutely.

It's like taking a photo and blowing a tap into a full size, you know, to hang on your wall.

They were extending these miniatures.

But the miniature seems to have been taken from life.

And Kerry was a real passionate patron of the arts and had links to Horan Boos.

Obviously, the Boleyn family had links to the Horan Boos as well.

So, yeah, it's a lovely kind of connection, I think.

Sorry, how was that portrait then acquired by Hever?

And why do you feel that it's a really important addition to the already incredible collection there?

So, the portrait was actually acquired thanks to a relationship that Hever has with the Philip Mould Gallery.

And Philip Mould has an incredible collection of portraits that come through his gallery in London.

Yeah.

He came to us, actually, and asked if we would be interested in this beautiful portrait.

And of course, as soon as we saw it, we couldn't turn it down.

We had to have it.

And he's been behind a few of our wonderful portraits at Heathrow.

He's helped us acquire quite a lot of our collection.

He was behind our brilliant Prince Arthur portrait that we have, which is an incredibly special part of our collection.

He was behind the wonderful Mary Queen of Scots in mourning portrait that we have, which is another very rare one.

And we actually have, sitting in our archive right now, another acquisition from Philip's gallery, which I can't say what it is yet, but it will be launched hopefully later this year, actually.

And it's outstanding.

Oh, I can't wait.

Yeah, it will be an exciting one.

So we're grateful for that kind of relationship with Philip.

But this portrait in particular is a massive part of our collection now, because obviously Hever was the childhood home, as I mentioned, of William's wife, Mary Boleyn.

And he likely is a serial killer, even stays here.

And we as a curatorial team at Hever, we're really passionate about, alongside actually our owners, the Guthrie family, we're all really passionate about bringing Hever's history to life in new ways.

And looking at Anne through new lenses and through not just her own self, but through the characters around her.

But William is a really important part of bringing that kind of wider context of Anne's life into full colour at Hever.

And it's wonderful to reunite, really, Mary.

We have a wonderful portrait of Mary and William together.

And we obviously celebrate Elizabeth I very much at Hever, who was William's niece and Mary Boleyn's niece.

and we want to celebrate William and Mary's children too.

We want to just kind of build that family picture that he extends Anne out into this kind of connected network of people close to her and around her.

It's wonderful to have this rare portrait of William to be able to continue to tell that story.

Oh, I love that.

I love that when you visit, you get to see all these people connected with the property.

I think it just adds something tangible to the connection and really does bring it to life.

It is such a wonderful collection that you have there.

It's so beautiful.

And if you're a Tudor lover, you must have Heaver Castle on your list because it is absolutely amazing.

So where have you got William displayed at the moment?

We have William actually displayed in our gorgeous Great Chamber, which was refurnished and represented just last year when we launched the Berlin Apartment, which we also recorded an episode about.

And the great chamber is really the room at the very centre, at the very heart of the Boleyn family home.

So it's absolutely appropriate that William is displayed there and he's hung in the same room as his great friend and his master, Henry VIII.

And he's perhaps more importantly hung on the same wall either side of a gorgeous oak buffet as his wife, Mary Boleyn.

So they're kind of either side of this buffet at the back wall as you enter.

So it's the first kind of wall you see as you enter the room.

And they're sort of looking at each other through the buffet, which is really lovely.

So we've reunited them, husband and wife, probably for the first time in 500 years that they've kind of been displayed together.

so it's a wonderful reunion to have in our great chamber.

It's so amazing.

I love what you've done with those rooms and the great chamber.

You now feel the Boleyns in there, don't you?

It's like a real, you get a real sense of them being, or maybe having just left, so you've popped in and they've just popped out.

I absolutely love it.

I think you've done such an amazing job and all those artifacts that you have now as well.

I know this is a really difficult question, Kate, but what are your like few favourite portraits that you have?

Gosh, in his collection.

I think our Arthur, he's hard to go past in conversation.

You know, he's gone through extensive scientific research in recent years and he's been dated to be older than any portrait in the National Portrait Gallery and it's likely the portrait that was the kind of betrothal portrait for when he was betrothed to Catherine of Aragon.

I like to think of it as almost that swipe left or swipe right on modern dating apps.

This is what he looked like.

So it's a really special portrait in our collection.

Obviously, I have a soft spot for anything that's painted that's to do with Anne.

Particularly our long gallery portrait, which is the famous Heber Rose portrait of Anne, which is going to be going off for scientific testing this year to do with an exhibition we're launching next year, which is really exciting.

And I just think yeah we've got so many brilliant portraits I love our Margaret Beaufort I love our Richard III I love the kind of Wars of the Roses portraits that we have and we've got a few obviously of Henry himself the man himself which we sometimes get questions about or comments about why you display Henry and Anne's home but obviously he was an important part of her story and again we're trying to flesh out that story but yeah I think Arthur is always at the top for me and the Mary Queen of Scots actually that I mentioned which is a really rare portrait of her in white morning again is only one of two that survives so we're very lucky to have some rare gems so lucky there are so many i don't think i could pick a favorite although the heaver roses of course yes very very special but there's so many and walking down that long gallery it's just like traveling through time isn't it when you start with the sort of characters from the 15th century and then you move down it's so so wonderful and of course you've got ann's books of ours as well.

Maybe just can you just quickly mention that in case any of our listeners haven't heard of that before?

Totally, yes.

For me, they're the jewels in our collection.

They are Anne's personal prayer books.

She has read and inscribed and signed them both, which is incredibly rare.

There's only three surviving books of Anne's in which she's written inside, and we've got two of them at Eva.

And one's unfortunately a careless later binder has sort of sliced through the bottom of her signature which is so rude but the other is fully intact our manuscripts we've got a manuscript from around 1425 to 1450 that was hand painted and illuminated in Bruges and then we have a printed book of ours which have kind of been the moves for my research and that was printed in Paris in around 1527 and it's connected to other books of ours once owned by Catherine of Aragon and Thomas Cromwell and yeah it's part of a kind of wider network of a Tudor book club which I'm working on.

Oh I love that.

Yeah they're both really wonderful intimate insights into Anne and we have them both on display year-round amongst her portraits and other artifacts so I love just going and looking at them in the glass cases and when we get them out of the case and it's even better as you know i know i can't that still remains one of the highlights i think of my life getting to hold and books of hours and knowing that my dna was mixing with her dna it was honestly incredible thing that's what one of our castle stewards ian smith he always says and dna is quite literally all over these pages which is true and so i think in that way It's the closest you can feel to her really through the years by touching something that she touched and loved.

And yeah, it's a really intimate connection.

Absolutely.

And so, Kate, is there any other exciting Hevery news that you want to share with our wonderful Talking Tudors communities?

Any event coming up?

Any exhibitions that maybe they need to pop into their diaries?

Yes.

I mean, this autumn we have the Hever History Festival happening.

We've got a wonderful lineup of speakers coming to speak at Hiba.

Myself and Erna are doing one talk, but there's incredible people.

We've got Tracy Borman and Nathan Amin and Luke Pepra and Alfred Hawkins and O'Leary Lynn and incredible speakers.

So we're really lucky to have that coming up this autumn.

And next year, perhaps most excitingly, in February, we will be launching our latest exhibition, which I'm co-curating with the wonderful Owen, Dr.

Anne Emerson, and Alison Palmer.

And this one actually really is based on Owen's research, which is so exciting.

And it's going to be all about the image of Anne Boleyn, all about her image in all senses, her portraiture, her sort of physical image, but also her iconography, her emblems, the artifacts of hers that survive to the present day.

And ultimately we'll be questioning we'll be looking at all of this kind of hotly debated.

Topics around Anne's image and ultimately I think asking whether it even matters what she looked like I'm not sure if it even mattered at the time you know to Henry I think there was so much more about her than her image she was never defined by her image but it's become such a sort of topic of contention yes that we're really excited to delve more into it we've got an incredible array of loans like the most loans that we've ever had for any exhibition coming and it's going to be running for pretty much a year so February 2026 to January 2027 and Owen and I are in the process of writing a book a catalogue to accompany the exhibition that will also be coming out next year and we'll also be launching I think as I mentioned another hopefully maybe two more portraits this year actually we've got two new acquisitions for our collection two famous shooter figures who will be joining our collection and obviously we have the continuation of our re-curation project as well which.

Was sort of placed on hold after the Berlin apartment last year for us to focus on next year's exhibition but we'll be picking that up again and moving forward with the next stage which will be our exploration of the Greek matter and Anne's role, prominent role in that.

So lots going on.

Oh my goodness, so much exciting stuff to look forward to.

It's such a wonderful and rich period, I think, at the moment to be involved in Tudor history, to be a fan of Anne Boleyn.

There's always so many interesting things going on.

And yeah, Kate, book me in, get my ticket because I'm coming over for that.

I'm not missing it.

I will paddle.

I'll get the rowboat out and come across.

I'm not missing that.

That just sounds to be true.

But I know that you're all working so hard on it.

And it's going to be amazing when you open the doors to the public.

Absolutely amazing.

And I have one more question for you, and then I will let you get on your day.

And that is the Tudor takeaway.

So I do ask all my guests for a takeaway.

So a little something for our listeners to go off and explore after the episode.

So do you have a takeaway for us?

Yes, I do.

And I thought sort of related to what we've talked about today, I would recommend auction sites.

So looking, for example, at Philip Mould's gallery, he's got a brilliant website, but also two other main ones that come to mind are Christie's and Sotheby's.

And Invaluables, which is a website that often combines different archive houses into one.

And if you are a Tudor fan, it's actually often the best place to see these kinds of beautiful portraits before they get snapped up at auction.

And sometimes they get snapped up and are never seen again.

They go into private collections and they're on someone's wall somewhere, which is wonderful for them, but not for the rest of us.

So if you want to kind of be.

On the edge of what's current in Tudor art, particularly, but also artifacts, then I really recommend just enjoying browsing through the auction sites and making a dream wishlist, which is what I do.

Oh, that's such a great takeaway.

And you know what?

Not one we've ever had in around 310 episodes.

So, well done, Kate.

Wow.

I'm glad.

Something new.

There's always something new, see?

That's what I mean.

We are always learning every day, even if you've been immersed in this history for 15, 20 years, there's still things to be learned, you know, and I absolutely love that.

And I am so grateful that you took the time to come back onto the podcast to talk tutors with me.

Thank you so much, Kate.

You're most welcome.

Thank you for having me.

Well, that brings us to the end of this episode of Talking Tutors.

Thank you so much for joining me.

If you've enjoyed the show, please spread the word on your socials.

And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review.

I also invite you to join the Talking Tudors Patreon community for some fun, exclusive content, and the Talking Tudors podcast group on Facebook, where you can interact with other Tudor history lovers and hear all the behind-the-scenes news.

You'll also find me on Instagram.

My handle is TheMostHappy78.

It's time now for us to re-enter the modern world.

As always, I look forward to Talking Tudors with you again very soon.

Music.