>> Peterson Toscano: Thank you, friends.

Thank you, Philip, for being with us.

We've been so excited.

Uh, after we read your book, we're like, oh, uh, we're so excited to see you.

>> Philip Gulley: Well, it's an honor to be with you both.

>> Peterson Toscano: Please say your name how you like it to be said.

Your full name.

>> Philip Gulley: Philip Gully.

>> Peterson Toscano: And, uh, when somebody asks you when you meet somebody and they meet you for the first time and they say, what do you do?

What are.

What's your go to answer these days?

>> Philip Gulley: Um, well, it depends on where I am.

If I don't want to talk to people.

For instance, if I'm on an airplane and just want some privacy, I tell them I'm a nuclear physicist because no one knows anything about that, and it immediately ends the conversations.

Otherwise, I just tell them I'm a Quaker minister.

I used to say rider.

But then if people immediately ask, well, what do you write?

And, well, I write a lot of things.

And if I mention a book I've written, they say, never heard of it.

And it's just too demoralizing.

So I tend to say quaker minister.

>> Peterson Toscano: And what are some identities that you have that you like people to know about?

>> Philip Gulley: That I'm married, that I'm a grandpa, that I just found out that our youngest son and his wife are going to have twins.

I like that.

That I have a lot of friends and that I feel very fortunate in life.

Those are the things that matter to me, that are important to me.

Yeah.

And I have a wonderful wife.

We've been married 40 years now, and she's a librarian and is bright and curious and fun and.

And, uh.

So that's a joy.

>> Peterson Toscano: Also, librarians are great.

It's like having your own personal Google.

>> Philip Gulley: It's wonderful.

>> Peterson Toscano: My husband's like that.

He's a professor at a university, and I can just randomly muse about something out loud.

I wonder how many people fly to Mexico every year.

And I don't have to ask him to look it up.

He has to look it up, and he has to know.

>> Philip Gulley: Yes.

Yes.

>> Sweet Miche: Yeah.

>> Peterson Toscano: Well, we're here to talk about your book Unlearning, uh, God.

And it's about unlearning, uh, the beliefs that you inherited about God, about faith, about theology, practice.

And for you, what was one of the most challenging beliefs for you to unlearn, and why do you think that is?

>> Philip Gulley: Oh, I would say I grew up Catholic.

I became a Quaker at the age of 17.

For me, it was the big three.

You know, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and Omnipresent, knows all, is everywhere, can do anything, uh, that nothing is beyond God's power.

But then when you look at that, those uh, assertions, you begin to realize just how unhelpful they are.

Especially as you address the question of evil.

It just doesn't hang together.

Oh, so God could have prevented the Holocaust, but God chose not to.

Well, that doesn't seem very moral to me.

So it creates these struggles in one's mind which for most people is easily dismissed by saying, we cannot fathom the ways of God.

Well, I'm sorry, I can fathom what is moral and what is ethical and what I would do if I were in a situation to stop the Holocaust.

Uh, so I don't think it is outside of our purview to ask that question and to attempt to understand that.

So something has to give.

So maybe what needs to give is our understanding of God, uh, and what we've been taught about God.

>> Peterson Toscano: Yeah, I remember those days asking these questions.

There are a lot of consequences.

>> Philip Gulley: Oh yeah.

And they're just so destructive.

I can't tell you as a pastor, the number of people who come to me and, and who've said, I don't understand why God took my only child.

And I don't want to get in, I don't like getting in theological arguments with people who are grieving.

That's not an appropriate time to do theology.

Except for that.

When you say to them, well, let's talk about that.

Is that God's, Is that consistent with the God you've experienced?

>> Peterson Toscano: Um, and why is this one so hard to unlearn?

>> Philip Gulley: Well, I think it's because it's one of the first things we learn, that God loves us, that God's in control.

It is a product of our deepest need, which is to live life without being crippled by fear or a sense of hopelessness.

And so we posit all these powers into a divine being so that we don't have to go through life worrying that no one's in control and that this will somehow end up okay.

I think the start of maturity is when we realize no one is in control except for you.

And even that's a limited kind of power.

I can't do everything I want, um, and that I have to make my peace with these realities and limitations.

Mhm.

Yeah.

>> Peterson Toscano: You mentioned fear.

And fear seems to be that sticky substance that can keep people from rethinking their beliefs.

Oh yeah, because of a lot of reasons.

And you talk about the angry God.

Say more about that to someone who has grown up under that and feels the weight of it and is terrified to walk away because of all the consequences of walking away in their mind.

>> Philip Gulley: Yeah.

Well, it's clear that fear is probably the driving motivation in our culture.

I think that's especially obvious now with the rise of Donald Trump and his supporters, which, in a way, was a masterfully evil manipulation of human fear.

It identified and targeted the other.

>> Peterson Toscano: Painted.

>> Philip Gulley: Uh, a dystopian, uh, worldview of what might happen if we didn't fix this and get rid of these people.

You know, the other.

Um, and I think the reason 82% of American evangelicals voted for him is that is the language they understand.

They have been steeped in a culture of fear, in judgment.

And so when he talks, he's speaking their language.

I don't understand it.

I encourage as many of them as I meet and encounter to get therapy because I believe it's indicative of a mental neurosis that needs to be healed.

The thing is, on one level, it works for them emotionally.

They find it emotionally satisfying.

And when you find your life emotionally satisfying, you're not inclined to get therapy.

You're not inclined to reflect and to ask, are these beliefs really helpful?

Uh, are they helping me become a more loving and gracious and wise person?

You're unable to ask those questions because you don't ask those questions, because you don't feel that existential vacancy that others might feel if they were of that same mindset.

>> Peterson Toscano: And I, uh, at least from my.

The traditions that I was in it also, we were warned against raising these questions, that we could open the door to deception, to demons, to the world.

>> Philip Gulley: To ask is to wonder, to doubt is a sin.

I love the Adam and Eve story, where, uh, it's fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

And I wonder why in the world would God not have wanted Adam and Eve to be able to discern between good and evil?

We know now that four different authors wrote the first five books of the Bible.

And some of those sources were very poetic, exploratory, had all kinds of questions and just wrote very movingly.

Others of them were priestly and really liked nailing things down.

And I suspect the person who came up with that story was somebody who worshiped every day at the altar of fear.

This is the problem.

The problem is not letting God discern good and evil, but you attempting to discern what is right and what is wrong.

And here's where that will get you.

It will get you thrown out of the garden and subject to work and be miserable and it's just such a, it's just, uh, Yeah, I like the other part of that where before they are cast out, God stays up all night sewing them clothes.

So God is grandmother.

And I really like that image.

Incidentally, I never heard that story until I got out of an evangelical church.

I was never told in the story of Adam and Eve that God made them clothes, fashioned them clothing.

I was never told that.

>> Peterson Toscano: It's not a vegan friendly story.

>> Philip Gulley: It's not a judgment friendly story.

>> Peterson Toscano: But yeah, God, the very first grandmother furrier.

I'm going to step back for a moment.

You could jump in.

>> Sweet Miche: Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that Peterson just asked about why it's so hard.

But could you tell us more about a personal, your personal move away from that, that fear based God to the.

>> Philip Gulley: I remember it perfectly.

I, uh, was at our local Bible bookstore and someone there, another customer, handed me a book that he had brought with him.

It was a book of Clarence Jordan's sermons.

Clarence Jord founded Koinonia community in the 19 Georgia.

It was an interracial community to bring together black and white farmers and people who could live together.

Which as you know, in the 1940s in Georgia was not a welcomed, welcomed, uh, scenario.

>> Sweet Miche: Yeah.

>> Philip Gulley: And so they were, came under attack.

And he wrote a book called the Cotton Patch Gospels.

And he wrote a beautiful sermon in there about universalism Based on Luke 15, the parable of the lost Sheep, the parable of the lost Coin, and the parable of the lost Son or the prodigal Son.

And he ended with this wonderful line, God is not a jailer jangling the keys on a bunch of lifers, that is people sentenced to prison for life.

God is a woman looking for a lost coin, a shepherd searching for a lost sheep, a father welcoming a lost child.

And the first time I read that it was an Abraham Maslow peak experience, I knew it was true.

I knew it was true.

And in that moment left behind the evangelical Christianity that I had been immersed in and became a universalist and began writing and talking about that experience, eventually leading to the book if Grace is True, why God Will Save Every Person.

Which was a great fun book to write.

>> Sweet Miche: That's.

I feel like in, in your book Unbelieving, you, you talk a few times about how you don't know the date when you were saved or like the exact moment, even though that could have been.

But it, yeah.

Um, but it sounds like you do know the date where.

Or maybe not the date, but you Know the moment where you were like, okay, that's it.

I'm interested in kind of the difference.

>> Philip Gulley: I remember my first epiphany.

I will say that.

Yeah, I will say that.

That I remember when the door swung open.

But walking through it is always, of course, a process, and it's an ongoing process.

One has never quite all the way through it.

I discover it Even now, some 35, 40 years later, that there are still things I've left behind in the old places that in some sense still speak to me, and I'm not willing to shed them altogether.

Yeah, like, I'm pretty much a fundamentalist when it comes to the Sermon on the Mount.

I have a friend who's pastors here in Indiana, which, as I said, is a pretty traditional state.

And so after the election of Donald Trump, he began a sermon series on the Sermon on the Mount and was told by an elder to stop that.

It was clear he didn't support Donald Trump if he was preaching that heresy.

And my friend said, you do realize where I'm getting this, don't you?

It wasn't written by George Soros.

Part of the Bible.

It's the book of Matthew.

You should try reading it sometime.

Which is to say there's a great deal of biblical and theological ignorance floating around in the church today, and it causes real problems.

But what I find funny is how many people, when I encountered this mindset and tried to explain it, that this was an outgrowth of revivalism that followed the Civil War.

It is a uniquely American interpretation of the gospel.

So you mustn't act like Paul invented this.

He didn't.

Uh, a guy named Dwight Moody championed this, and it has a start date, and we know it, so you don't.

And they have been masterful, done a masterful job at, uh, making Christians think that it is the only legitimate interpretation of the Christian experience when it isn't.

It has a start date, and I hope has an end date, because I think it has caused far more harm than good.

>> Sweet Miche: Things from your previous religious times and what you bring into Quakerism.

And I feel like, Peterson, you have a bigger connection in that.

And so I was wondering if.

If that was something that was interesting to you of, um, not having to leave everything behind.

>> Peterson Toscano: Yeah, I found that interesting, Philip, when you said that.

That there's some things you're not yet willing to let go of.

And it sort of makes me wonder about the discernment process.

And, um, how do you discern when to let go of a belief, when to hold onto it?

And maybe what's something, if you're willing to share that you're holding on to, that you're like, m.

I'm not sure about this, but I'm not going to let it go yet.

>> Philip Gulley: I look at.

I look at every belief and ask this question.

Is it moving me forward or is it holding me back?

And by moving forward, I mean, is it helping me grow?

Is it making me a more loving person?

Then I retain it?

And I don't care who taught it to me.

It doesn't matter if I learned that from a Catholic nun at the age of six, if it still works, I'm going to keep it.

Um, if it makes me a smaller person, if it makes me love less, if it diminishes others, then I feel very comfortable jettisoning it and letting it go.

And, uh, saying, I'm not going to let that belief inform my life any longer.

And I think all of life should be this way.

I think we need to do this not only with religion, but I think we need to do it with nationalism, with what we were taught about America and the beliefs that we retain and the beliefs that we really ought to let go of.

Uh, for instance, what that might look like is the unthinking sentiment, sentiment that you often hear.

America is the greatest, freest nation in the world.

Well, okay, we have ways to measure that now.

There's a thing called the Human Freedom Index.

And we can see where America ranks.

And we now rank 17th out of all the nations, out of all the global nations in terms of freedoms that we have and that we're allowed to have.

Their happiness indexes that show Costa Ricans and people from Finland and Iceland are far more happy than Americans.

Other nations have far more economic opportunities that we don't have, much better health care, superior education.

So this mindless chant that we're the greatest and we're the best has to be re examined.

And I think the same thing is true of Christianity.

Christianity is the only way to God.

Really?

Really.

So just by some lucky circumstance, I happen to be born in a Christian culture.

And what do you know?

That's the only way to God.

Well, how arrogant is that?

And think of the damage that does.

Think of the damage that does when fundamental Muslims, uh, believe that about their faith, when Orthodox Jews believe that about their faith and uh, what it means in their ownership of Israel and their treatment of Palestinians, this exclusivity.

And incidentally, I think exclusivity is almost always a sin, whether it is religious or nationalist or, um, racial um, that is something we need to outgrow.

>> Peterson Toscano: M.

Yeah, yeah.

When there's a covenant, typically there are a few on the inside and a bunch on the outside of that.

>> Philip Gulley: And, you know, we Quakers went through that with our quietest period in the.

When we were kicking one another out right and left for marrying non Quakers.

And my family had been quakers.

The first four gullies to come to America were four Quaker brothers who came to North Carolina in the 1600s.

None of us lasted.

We were all read out of meetings in the 17s and 1800s for violating Quaker norms that now I look at and I think, well, that was just stupid.

Seriously, you're going to kick somebody out because they're lapels?

They had a lapel on their jacket or they had a piano in their home or they married a Methodist.

How foolish is that?

But that is religion.

This covenant mentality that we are the pure insiders, boy, that's another one that really sticks us is this fascination with purity that always ends up leaving, identifying someone else as impure and giving us the right to exclude them from our lives.

>> Peterson Toscano: So I have a practical question because people get confused about Quakerism and we have to be careful because I say, well, you know, as a Quaker, I.

But there are different shades of Quakers, different types of Quakers.

>> Philip Gulley: Absolutely.

>> Peterson Toscano: What's a nice, straightforward, simple way you can explain to someone who's interested in Quakerism, um, for them to know that there are these different flavors?

>> Philip Gulley: I just tell people, like all families, we're.

We're different.

Some of us gather in silence every Sunday.

Others of us listen to a prepared message.

Some of us sing, others of us don't.

What.

What seems to me to be the constant among all Quakers, and I've traveled among, been present and worshiped with all sorts of Quakers, is our pretty consistent assertion that God teaches directly and that silence is a useful tool for that discernment.

So even in the most unprogrammed meetings or, uh, most programmed meetings I've ever experienced at all, the bells and whistles, the prayers, the singing, the sermon, there was still the recognition that it is possible to meet God in the silence and be led.

And that seems to last and persist no matter what.

Now, the length of silence might vary, but the belief in the efficacy of silent listening is still present.

>> Peterson Toscano: Yeah, this past Sunday, I preached at a church outside of D.C.

a UCC church that literally had bells and whistles and they had a bell choir which I had never heard outside of Christmas, which was really nice.

Uh, they had a flautist.

>> Philip Gulley: Wow.

>> Peterson Toscano: When I got up to speak, I was like, as a Quaker, I feel overstimulated by all the bells and whistles.

But I did talk about silence and that I encourage people to just take just two minutes.

And to her credit, the minister during the prayer time said, well, why don't we just take this up right now and have two minutes of silence?

And people, I mean, that was a significant amount for them because they had not experienced much of that before.

And so many people came up afterwards.

And that was the most memorable part of the service for them.

>> Philip Gulley: The most meaningful is there is something powerful about sitting in a room full of people and no one's talking.

You're just sharing this gift and.

And holding it close to you.

It's wonderful.

It's absolutely wonderful.

And then someone stands up and says something that just blows you away.

It's, uh, it's my favorite part of the week.

Yeah.

>> Peterson Toscano: And you've written about how Quakerism has given you space to explore, to unlearn, to kind of bring your ancestors back, in a way to their place in Quakerism.

But what is it, would you say, about Quakerism, in addition to the silence, its theology, its practice community, what is it that makes it a meaningful path for people who are seeking something beyond Christianity, particularly at this moment in history?

>> Philip Gulley: Well, I would say how it's been helpful to me is by virtue of the kind of people Quaker meetings attract.

The things I really value in life.

Generosity, compassion, thoughtfulness.

Conversation can be found in spades in a, uh, typical Quaker meeting.

So I just like the kind of people that gather there.

I feel immediately at home with them, no matter what meeting I'm at.

And I've probably participated in over 100 Quaker meetings in the course of my life as a speaker and writer.

And they're all different, and yet they're all the same.

That is, the same.

I find the same kind of people there.

Uh, and in every Quaker meeting I have ever been to, I have always found a couple of eccentric people who would not be welcomed anywhere else.

But they are made to feel loved and cherished in that space.

And I love that because I think there ought to be a room for everybody.

M And I think there are a lot of broken people out in the world, and if we can give them a place to be loved without letting their neurosis drive the meeting, which sometimes happens, that it can be healing not only for them, but for those who love them, who walk with them through this process of growth and restoration.

I just like the kind of people that Quaker Meetings attract.

And the funny thing is the evangelical Quaker meetings, I've gone to the Bible thumping Quaker meetings and the most unprogrammed progressive Quaker meetings attract the same kind of people.

And they all think they're different.

Unprogrammed meetings think program meetings are evangelical and closed off and programmed meetings think unprogrammed Quakers are heretical and don't believe in Jesus.

And I've just not found that to be true at all.

They're the same kind of people.

They just don't know it.

>> Peterson Toscano: I think I've also found like some interesting traits too.

Like I find that with most Quakers regardless of their backgrounds, like we, we don't, um, we don't believe in violence.

We're just passive aggressive.

>> Philip Gulley: But boy, we do that.

>> Peterson Toscano: Well, we did.

It's like an art form.

What questions do you have for us?

I know you don't know us very well and I don't know if you've listened to our show before, but, um, want to give you a chance, Philip, if you have any questions for us.

>> Philip Gulley: Well, I would be interested in the traditions you grew up in.

I mean, I mentioned that I grew up Catholic.

And um.

So what about both of you, Misha?

What tradition were you.

>> Sweet Miche: Yeah, um, I grew up Methodist.

>> Philip Gulley: Okay.

>> Sweet Miche: In Portland, Oregon.

And I went to Catholic schools growing up.

Um, and I, yeah, I loved the idea of church and I really saw the value in that community, but I don't think that.

Yeah, my belief in God kind of dwindled.

I lost my father when I was 11.

And right after that I dove really deep into some of my Bible thumping as an 11 year old.

Um, and then I think, yeah, understandably.

Yeah.

And then I think as, as the grief kind of passed, I was like, this isn't working for me anymore.

Um, so, uh, yeah, I, I, um.

And then going to Catholic schools, I was like, I don't know, I just didn't.

I'm like, why are we, uh, just, you know, the, the patriarchy of it.

And also like, I just didn't understand the, um, the bells and whistles.

>> Philip Gulley: Right.

>> Sweet Miche: As you both said.

>> Philip Gulley: Right.

>> Sweet Miche: So I, I left it.

And then after college I found Quakerism.

Um, and I was like, this, this is perfect where I get this community.

>> Philip Gulley: Where did you go to college?

>> Sweet Miche: I went to Oberlin.

I'm in Ohio.

>> Philip Gulley: Over in Ohio.

Sure.

And what did you study?

>> Sweet Miche: I studied American Studies and Gender studies.

Just very classic liberal arts.

>> Philip Gulley: You're like me, we, that allowed us to make a lot of money, didn't.

You're looking at A theology and sociology major.

>> Sweet Miche: Exactly.

Um, but yeah.

>> Philip Gulley: Wasn't it wonderful to study those things and have your world just expand?

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah.

>> Sweet Miche: Yeah.

And then I got my master's in theopoetics, so.

At School of Religion, so that really set me over the top on the SAP.

>> Philip Gulley: When were you at ESR?

>> Sweet Miche: I graduated.

It was 2020 to 2022.

So recently.

>> Philip Gulley: Okay.

Well, we have a.

An intern at our Quaker meeting now named Jackson Napier.

>> Sweet Miche: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Philip Gulley: Jackson is wonderful.

We're pastoring our meeting together now.

>> Sweet Miche: Whoa.

>> Philip Gulley: Wow.

>> Sweet Miche: That's lovely.

Yeah, we had classes together.

>> Philip Gulley: So you and I have many friends in common.

>> Sweet Miche: Exactly.

>> Philip Gulley: Yes.

Wow.

Yes.

You were there when Carol Spencer was there, weren't you?

>> Sweet Miche: Yeah, I was.

>> Philip Gulley: She was a delight.

>> Sweet Miche: Yeah.

>> Philip Gulley: And a native Oregonian.

>> Peterson Toscano: Yes.

>> Philip Gulley: Peterson, what tradition did you grow up in?

Or did you.

>> Peterson Toscano: Yeah, um, I'm thinking about Miche, though, and all the headhunters who are after looking at.

At their experience, uh, of, uh, learning.

Like, we need to hire this person.

I like you, Philip.

Grew up Catholic.

Uh, and.

And at age 17, I made a switch.

Uh, I grew up, um, Catholic, and I always had this sort of mystical, longing side to me.

And at age 15, after hearing some Baptists talk, just the basic Romans road kind of thing, but there was something real about them.

They talked about God in a different way.

I sat in my room quietly and I had this wonderful encounter with Jesus.

Uh, and I didn't know what to do with it.

And unfortunately, a Bible believing church said, we know what to do with this.

Come to our service and hand over your brain and we will keep it in a jar so you won't be harmed by it.

And we will fill the cavity with all the truth.

So I became a born again evangelical conservative, anti gay republican Christian.

And then you went all the way, didn't you?

I went all the way, though.

I was whole hog.

Uh, and, uh, I then spent the next, like 17 years attempting to destroy my sexuality and everything attached to it, which turned to be creativity, the liberal arts that I study, theater and English.

And so it almost destroyed me.

And I finally had to come to, like, the place where you asked the good question, like, is it moving me forward?

I.

I had assess, like, how come I don't see the fruit of the Holy Spirit in my life.

I've been looking for joy and peace and kindness and self control, and it's.

I have none of that.

I just am miserable.

And this doesn't.

This is not the hand of God in my life.

This is something Else.

And then I remember this significant moment, praying.

And it wasn't that I heard a voice, but I got this impression, you know, I was like, God, I've been asking you for years to make me straight, to fix me, whatever.

And you know, it's like as if the Spirit said um, yeah.

And you wouldn't take no for an answer.

And I never imagined the answer would be no.

I just always assumed I was asking the wrong way or whatever.

I was like, that's wow.

And then I.

And it was in 2001, after 9 11.

I, I found the Quakers.

And um, the, that meeting was right after 9 11.

I needed to be somewhere.

A woman I worked with was a Quaker.

And I went and everyone was in stunned silence.

There were no messages.

And it felt glorious.

>> Philip Gulley: Yeah.

>> Peterson Toscano: And I thought, you know what, I don't need to actually listen to another sermon again.

I have listened to thousands of sermons.

>> Philip Gulley: Right.

>> Peterson Toscano: But I've not listened to the silence.

>> Philip Gulley: Right.

>> Peterson Toscano: And so I've been a Quaker since 2001 and it's been so helpful in my coming out experience because it's, it's an ongoing thing.

It's like unlearning, discovering what I had hidden in the past that's still valuable, you know, those sort of things.

And I'm also a Bible scholar.

That's the one thing I got from my time.

And I, I use those evangelical Bible skills, right.

To explore gender non conforming Bible characters.

But I use the tools of the evangelicals by saying look, it's in the text so we have to take this interpretation seriously.

>> Philip Gulley: Yeah.

>> Peterson Toscano: And that's been, that's.

I'm actually so grateful that I unders.

I speak evangelical as a second language.

It's very helpful.

>> Philip Gulley: Wonder about what was really happening with Jonathan and David, eh?

>> Peterson Toscano: Yes, exactly.

>> Philip Gulley: Just what they did on all those camping trips.

>> Peterson Toscano: Broke back Bible.

The broke back bible.

>> Philip Gulley: Jesus and 12 guys looking kind of shady.

>> Peterson Toscano: Yeah, well.

And then all the gender differences, all the like people transgressing and trans, you know, kind of transcending gender, people breaking the rules.

>> Philip Gulley: Oh yeah.

>> Peterson Toscano: And that cracked open to me when I heard a gay guy say, I found another story about us in the Bible.

I'm like, what's that story?

He says, you know the Passover, the man carrying the pitcher of water, he was gay.

I'm like, wait, what?

How do you know that?

And he says, oh, because only, um, back then only women would carry water.

So that means he's gay.

I say, no, that means he's gender non conforming.

He may be Gay, and that may be why, but don't be stealing other people's stories from them.

And I thought, are there others like that?

And I was.

I'm shocked to see how many gender outlaws laws there are in the Bible.

>> Philip Gulley: Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yes.

>> Peterson Toscano: Well, we're coming close to the end.

I've spoken a great deal.

Mish.

Philip, what are your last closing remarks?

>> Sweet Miche: I'm a little interested in, uh.

We have a thinking about young people today identifying as spiritual but not religious and how that is a growing, um, faction.

And if you think that organized religion is still useful, um, or if it is time for something new completely or something in between, um, well, I think it's still useful.

>> Philip Gulley: I don't know it, but I think that depends entirely upon the community in which it locates itself.

Organized religion will continue to be useful if it does several things well, if it brings people together in loving and, um, shared efforts to enhance the world, if it respects personal autonomy and the right of all people to discern, um, the best way forward for them, as opposed to imposing a standard upon them.

It's useful as long as it is loving, as long as its social priorities are consistent with the ethos of Jesus, which I believe is radical love.

And when it fails to do that, I don't believe any organized religion is helpful.

And quite frankly, I wish they would just die off.

It needs to be jettisoned, and we as humans need to do that.

We need to, um, be much more discerning in what we give our hearts and minds to.

And be careful not to support things that diminish us or diminish others.

If we can find a way to include all, to help all, to encourage all, who wouldn't want that?

There's still a place for us.

Who wouldn't want that?

Yeah.

>> Peterson Toscano: I'm assuming a progressive hearing that might say, well, good, because I do that.

I'm in the good spot.

I'm in the good place.

I don't have to question anything.

But, um, what is your critique on progressives and where they might need to grow or question m.

I say almost.

>> Philip Gulley: Every Sunday at my, uh, at my Quaker meeting, I said, if you've spent the week wishing you could do more to help the hungry, to home the homeless, speak truth to power, and you have felt like what you've done isn't enough, couple your efforts to ours so that, uh.

So that what you have been doing can be magnified.

We can do more together.

Um, and that's really true.

I mean, if we, um, we don't take up money at our meeting every Sunday, we have these big baskets that we had made, and we wheel them up and down the aisles, and people put food in them, and that food is immediately taken out and, um, distributed to hungry people.

We do the same with clothing in winter.

We do the same with school supplies for poor children, um, in underserved areas.

You know, you can give one coat.

If you come here and help us, we can give a hundred.

Yeah.

Um, so the multiplication of.

Of good that happens when people are in a community.

>> Peterson Toscano: Well, we have come to the end.

Any last words that you feel you must say, Philip, that is on your heart.

>> Philip Gulley: Well, I just appreciate what you two are doing.

You know, they used to call early Friends publishers of Truth, and we wrote all these tracts and books to get word out about ourselves.

And the new form of that, of course, is the podcast.

You are reaching people my books will never reach.

You are reaching people who will never hear the sermons I give of.

You are the new publishers of Truth among the Religious Society of Friends, and I commend you for that.

Keep up the good work.

>> Peterson Toscano: Wow.

I feel special.

Look at that.

Mish.

All right, I'm going to stop recording.