>> Sweet Miche: In this episode of Quakers Today, uh, we ask, what is something you had to unlearn?

>> Peterson Toscano: Philip Gulley, a Quaker pastor, writer and speaker from Danville, Indiana, joins us to talk about his journey of unlearning.

He is the author of Unlearning How Unbelieving Helped me Believe.

>> Sweet Miche: And we share resources that have helped us in our process of questioning what we believe.

I'm Peterson Cintiscano and I am Sweetmeesh.

This is season four, episode five of the Quakers Today podcast, a project of Friends Publishing Corporation.

This season of Quakers Today is sponsored by American Friends Service Committee and Friends Fiduciary.

>> Philip Gulley: I just like the kind of people that Quaker meetings attract.

>> Sweet Miche: That's Philip Gulley.

Peterson and I recently had a long conversation with him.

>> Philip Gulley: And the funny thing is, the evangelical Quaker meetings I've gone to, the Bible thumping Quaker meetings, and the most unprogrammed progressive Quaker meetings attract the same kind of people.

>> Peterson Toscano: But we didn't reach out, uh, to Philip to talk about Quakerism.

We were curious about his own long and winding spiritual journey.

>> Sweet Miche: He wrote about it in his book Unlearning.

How Unbelieving helped me believe.

Peterson, in our conversation with Philip, what stood out to you?

>> Peterson Toscano: Fear came up a lot in this conversation.

And fear has a profound impact on our bodies, including our minds.

Uh, when we experience fear, neural pathways narrow, making it difficult to recall what we know.

It hinders critical thinking and definitely interferes with rational decision making.

Philip, in talking about his own journey from Catholicism to evangelicalism to universalism, he explained how some of us initially turn to God to alleviate our fears.

>> Philip Gulley: One of the first things we learn that God loves us, that God's in control.

It is a product of our deepest need, which is to, uh, live life without being crippled by fear or a sense of hopelessness.

And so we posit all these powers into a divine being so that we don't have to, uh, go through life worrying that no one's in control and that this will somehow end up okay.

>> Peterson Toscano: As a teen, I attended a church where the leaders routinely warned us about how we could be led astray from the faith.

They would say, be sober, uh, be vigilant, because your adversary, the devil as a roaring lion, walketh about seeking whom he may devour.

Uh, I have no idea why he did it with that accent, but it was the King James.

I do remember that.

According to Philip, using fear to control behavior is nothing new.

It goes back to the beginning, like the book of Genesis and the Garden of Eden.

God gave them a vast garden of fresh Produce, but warned them they must not eat of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

>> Philip Gulley: We know now that four different authors wrote the first five books of the Bible.

Some of those sources were very poetic, exploratory, had all kinds of questions, and just wrote very movingly.

Others of them were priestly and, um, really liked nailing things down.

And I suspect the person who came up with that story, with somebody who worshiped every day at the altar of fear, this is the problem.

And, uh, here's where that will get you.

It will get you thrown out of the garden, subject to work, and be miserable.

And it's just such a depressing story.

>> Peterson Toscano: Yeah, it's depressing indeed.

For centuries, religious leaders have served as spiritual overlords, keeping folks like me on a straight and narrow path.

Frankly, I liked it that way, which I know sounds weird, but it was easier to outsource the work of figuring out God's will for my life than to do it myself.

How?

Unlike the early Quakers, these Friends dared to turn their noses up at church authorities and the educated clergy class.

Instead, they looked directly to God for guidance.

They questioned, liberated themselves from church teachings and sought to live lives led by the Spirit.

Centuries later, here in the United States, we are witnessing the overreach of religious leaders again, which, according to Philip, has political consequences.

>> Philip Gulley: Well, it's clear that fear is probably the driving motivation in our culture.

I think that's especially obvious now with the rise of, uh, Donald Trump and his supporters, which in a way was a masterfully evil manipulation of human fears.

It identified and targeted the Other, painted a dystopian, uh, worldview of what might happen if we didn't fix this and get rid of these people.

The other.

And I think the reason 82% of American evangelicals voted for him is that is the language they understand.

They have been steeped in a culture of fear, in judgment.

And so when he talks, he's speaking their language.

>> Peterson Toscano: In my earlier years, I submitted myself to evangelical and Pentecostal ministers who spoke incessantly about love.

But they also preached fear.

Fear of secular humanism, New Age teaching, environmentalism, socialism, and gangs of homosexual men out to convert and recruit our children.

These fears kept us in the pew.

They fired us up to support politicians promoting Christian nationalism.

The fear instilled in us led to actions that aligned perfectly with a political movement.

Having to unlearn this type of fear himself.

What does Philip say to the people caught up in the current political movement, steeped in fear?

>> Philip Gulley: I encourage as many of them as I meet and encounter to get therapy because I believe it's indicative of a mental neurosis that needs to be healed.

The thing is, on one level, it works for them emotionally.

They find it emotionally satisfying.

And when you find your life emotionally satisfying, you're not inclined to get therapy.

You're not inclined to reflect and to ask, are these beliefs really helpful?

Are they helping me become a, uh, more loving and gracious and wise person?

You don't ask those questions because you don't feel that existential vacancy that others might feel if they were of that same mindset.

>> Peterson Toscano: For Philip, unlearning means fearlessly examining our faith and what we have chosen to believe.

>> Sweet Miche: Unlike you, Peterson, I didn't experience an evangelical tradition.

I was raised in a mainstream denomination, the United Methodist Church.

Frankly, it wasn't scary, but it also wasn't terribly inspiring either.

I turned away from Christianity as a teen, uh, because I didn't see my fellow congregants living Jesus's teachings.

They're more interested in, uh, upholding social hierarchies, judging others, and focusing on rules rather than relationship.

But even after leaving, unlearning wasn't easy.

All of us have deeply ingrained ideas about right and wrong.

But dismantling these frameworks of religious dogma can feel like unsettling the very ground beneath our feet.

To question and potentially release these long held ideas requires courage.

But it's also the first step towards a more loving way of being.

>> Philip Gulley: I, uh, look at every belief and ask this question.

Is it moving me forward or is it holding me back?

And by moving forward, I mean is it helping me grow?

Is it making me a more loving person?

Then I retain it.

And I don't care who taught it to me.

It doesn't matter if I learned that from a Catholic nun at the age of six.

If it still works, I'm going to keep it.

If it makes me a smaller person, if it makes me love less, if it diminishes others, then I feel very comfortable jettisoning it and letting it go and, uh, saying I'm not going to let that belief inform my life any longer.

I think we need to do this not only with religion, but I think we need to do it with nationalism, with what we were taught about America and the beliefs that we retain and, uh, the beliefs that we really ought to let go of.

>> Sweet Miche: As Philip said earlier, one of the first things we learn is that God loves us, that God is in control.

As a child, I learned literally that God is my heavenly father.

To move beyond that, to Grow up, in a way, was to shift my whole understanding of the Bible and its teachings.

Unlearning the Protestant God was a process of questioning those foundational images.

For me, I realized I love the Jesus who washed the feet of his disciples and slipped the tables of the money lenders.

And sometimes this shift is sparked by profound insights, A, uh, sudden realization that cracks open old ways of thinking.

These epiphanies can happen at any time, often when we least expect them.

>> Philip Gulley: I was at our local Bible bookstore, and, uh, someone there, another customer, handed me a book that he had brought with him.

It was a book of Clarence Jordan's sermons.

And, uh, he wrote a beautiful sermon in there about universalism based on Luke 15.

And he ended with this wonderful line, God is not a jailer, jangling the keys on a bunch of lifers, that is people sentenced to prison for life.

God is a woman looking for a lost coin, a shepherd searching for a lost sheep, a father welcoming a lost child.

And the first time I read that, uh, it was an Abraham Maslow peak experience.

I knew it was true.

I knew it was true.

And in that moment, left behind the evangelical Christianity that I had been immersed in and became a universalist.

>> Sweet Miche: Unlearning isn't a clean break.

Emotionally, we might cycle through doubt, anger, and a sense of being adrift.

It might involve leaving our church, leaving friendships or family.

For me, it wasn't a dramatic exit from a single community, but more of a gradual distancing from.

From certain ideas and practices.

But there was a period of feeling untethered, questioning where I truly belonged spiritually.

And I think that this is true for many young seekers.

The politicizing of faith is increasingly prioritizing power and nationalism over compassion and global community.

However, religious community can be an incredibly powerful force of good.

>> Philip Gulley: I say this almost every Sunday at, uh, my Quaker meeting.

I said, if you've spent the week wishing you could do more to help the hungry, to home the homeless and speak truth to power, and you have felt like what you've done isn't enough, couple your efforts to ours so that what you have been doing can be magnified.

We can do more together.

Orgasm.

Religion will continue to be useful if it does several things well, if it brings people together in loving, shared efforts to enhance the world, if it respects personal autonomy and the right of all people to discern the best way forward for them, as opposed to imposing a standard upon them.

We need to, um, be much more discerning in what we give our hearts and minds to.

And be careful not to support things that diminish us or diminish others.

If we can find a way to include all, to help all, to encourage all, who wouldn't want that?

There's still a place for us.

Who wouldn't want that?

>> Peterson Toscano: If you want to listen to the full conversation, which includes Sweetmesh, Philip Gulley.

>> Sweet Miche: And me, along with a, uh, hilarious Brokeback Bible reference, uh.

>> Peterson Toscano: Oh, yeah, that's right.

Visit quakerstoday.org to find the show notes for this episode and a link to the entire 45 minute conversation.

>> Philip Gulley: You.

>> Peterson Toscano: You will also find a link to an article I wrote inspired by our conversation with Philip Gulley.

In it, I explore the role of fear in my spiritual journey.

Just visit quakerstoday.org and see the show notes for this episode.

>> Sweet Miche: Peterson.

Mhm.

You attended ultra conservative evangelical churches for almost 20 years.

You've unlearned, um, a lot since then.

What resources helped you in the unlearning, relearning and liberation process?

>> Peterson Toscano: Wow.

And it is a process.

It took time and there were many influences.

For the first few years, I felt lost, but therapy helped me find myself again.

So, yeah, I agree with Philip.

Therapy is important.

And then I turned to writers.

The words and lives of poets like Audre Lorde, Federico Garcia Lorca, um, Walt Whitman and Langston Hughes particularly inspired me, and they served as models.

Then at the Friends General Conference gathering back in 2002, I learned about Elaine Pagels at the bookstore.

Pagels is a historian who's written extensively about first century Christians, and she helped me see that the early church had a diversity of beliefs and practices that I had no idea about.

Oh, and another great resource were LGBTQ film festivals.

Seeing the lives and the stories of people that I'd been trained to fear and despise, well, it totally deepened my love for the community and for myself.

What about you, Sweetmeesh?

I know you don't have the same background as me, but you've been unlearning and relearning.

What resources and experiences have contributed to your unlearning?

>> Sweet Miche: Yeah, yeah.

I think my first moment of unlearning was joining Quaker voluntary service.

And in my first meeting for worship in the barn at Pendle Hill, a friend who passed while I was in college spoke to me and she told me to follow a path of faith.

Since then, I have also felt drawn to writers.

Poets like Mary Oliver and Christian Wiman have helped me expand my understanding of the divine from my own culture.

And I've also turned to writers who write about divinity from contexts outside of mine like Joy Harjo, the first Native American poet laureate who writes about Earth Spirit, and Nigerian writer Akwaeke Imizi, who writes about the Obanji.

These writers have taught me, uh, new concepts of God and how colonial theologies have suppressed these spiritual traditions.

Encountering different cosmologies and perspectives can broaden our theological imaginations.

Hopefully the work of unlearning UH will lead to more inclusive and relevant ways of enacting our Quaker faith.

>> Peterson Toscano: If you have any resources that have helped you in your unlearning, send them our way by email.

That email is podcastriendsjournal.org or DM us on Instagram X or TikTok.

>> Sweet Miche: Thank you for listening to this episode of Quakers Today.

If you listen on Apple Podcasts, rate and review the show, it helps us more than you know and share the podcast with Friends.

The more the merrier.

Quakers Today is written and produced by.

>> Peterson Toscano: Me Sweetmeesh and Me Peterson Toscano.

Music on today's show comes from Epidemic Sound.

Season 4 of Quakers Today is sponsored by Friends Fiduciary.

Since 1898, Friends Fiduciary has provided values aligned investment services to fellow Quaker organizations.

Friends Fiduciary consistently achieves strong financial returns while witnessing to Quaker testimonies.

They also help individuals support organizations they hold dear through giving strategies including uh, donor advised funds, charitable gift annuities and stock gifts.

Learn more about FFC's services@friendsfiduciary.org.

>> Sweet Miche: This season is also brought to you by American Friends Service Committee.

Vulnerable communities and the planet are counting on Quakers to take action for a more just, sustainable and peaceful world.

The American Friends Service Committee, or afsc, works at the forefront of many social change movements to meet urgent humanitarian needs, challenge injustice and build peace.

Find out more about how you can get involved in their program to protect migrant communities, establish an enduring peace in Palestine, demilitarize police forces around the world, assert the right for food for all, and more.

Visit afsc.org that's afsc.org visit quakerstoday.org to.

>> Peterson Toscano: See our show notes and a full transcript of this episode.

And if you stick around after the closing you will hear listeners responses to the question in your spiritual or personal journey, what is a belief you had to unlearn?

>> Sweet Miche: Thank you friend for listening.

M.

>> Peterson Toscano: In a moment you will hear what listeners had to say about beliefs they had to unlearn.

>> Sweet Miche: Um, but first I am going to share next month's question Beyond a roof and four walls, what does the word home uh mean to you?

We can Think of home in different ways.

There's physical home, the space we inhabit.

There's also the emotional home, that sense of comfort and security.

>> Peterson Toscano: And then there's the societal home, our place within a community or culture.

Next month's question is, beyond a roof and four walls, what does the word home mean to you?

Leave a voice memo with your name and the town where you live.

The number to call don't be afraid is 317-quakers.

That's 317-782-5377.

You can also send an email.

I have these contact details in our show notes over@quakerstoday.org now we hear answers.

>> Sweet Miche: To the question, what is something you had to unlearn?

>> Peterson Toscano: One thing I learned this month, sweetmesh, is that many people are afraid to leave voicemails.

And I know, I definitely know.

It takes courage.

>> Sweet Miche: Yeah.

And I love getting to hear the voicemails and hearing people's words in their own voices.

>> Peterson Toscano: Same.

Uh, so no voicemails.

>> Peterson Toscano: But wait, wait.

>> Peterson Toscano: We have breaking news.

We have just received a voicemail.

Thank goodness.

And here it is.

>> Roxanne: Hi, my name is Roxanne.

The big thing that I find as I explore and seek in many different religious styles and methodologies is that there is no one group or one person or one people who have the big the answer, like, capital A answer.

I find little answers and bits of the answer and whatever that may be everywhere I go.

And that, uh, included when I recently went to my very first Friends meeting in Atlanta.

And it was lovely, peaceful, and divine.

It's just beautiful that the answer might just be that there is no answer.

You get to kind of continue to seek it.

Anyway, thanks.

>> Peterson Toscano: Oh, Roxanne, thank you for this voicemail.

It is so sweet, and I'm so glad you had a great experience the first time in meeting.

Whew.

See?

Voicemails.

It makes the whole show better.

We did get many responses on social media.

On, uh, my Facebook page alone, I received over 30 answers.

In looking at them, I found it fascinating to see the common threads, so I thought I'd share a few themes that popped up.

>> Sweet Miche: What stood out?

>> Peterson Toscano: Well, a big one was folks wrestling with the traditional ideas about God they grew up with.

Lots of people mentioned letting go of a harsh or judgmental image of God, like, uh, Angela.

She shared unlearning the idea quote, that God is not waiting to zap me for asking questions, doubting being angry or creative.

Snark and Ray talked about realizing their experience of the divine was valid, even if it wasn't.

Like the common, masculine, and often harsh and angry version of God they'd encountered.

It was about finding their own connection.

Some people went further and, um, they questioned core doctrines.

David was very direct.

He said he unlearned substitutionary atonement and called it bs.

Others, like Christine, shared that she had to unlearn the very belief in God and.

And the afterlife.

>> Sweet Miche: Wow, that's significant.

Unlearning.

It takes courage to question those foundational beliefs.

>> Peterson Toscano: Yeah, it.

It does, absolutely.

And.

And that connects to another theme.

Unlearning feelings of unworthiness and learning to value self care.

Amy mentioned that feeling of unworthiness.

Angela also talked about unlearning, quote, that I have to prove my worth or earn love even on the days I forget my deodorant or common sense.

>> Sweet Miche: Forgetting deodorant doesn't make you unlovable.

>> Peterson Toscano: And Christine shared a simple but profound one quote, that self care is not self indulgent.

That's something many people struggle with, right?

>> Sweet Miche: Mm, definitely.

That's very, um, Puritan.

And especially if you're raised with a focus on constant service to others without balancing it with care for self.

>> Peterson Toscano: Exactly.

Then there was the theme of separating genuine spirituality from rigid religion.

Joe summed it up nicely, saying, quote, I can be spiritual and not be part of a religion, end quote.

Finding that path outside of institutions.

Finally, some folks mentioned unlearning broader assumptions.

Whittier, who mentioned unlearning limitations around even a simple word quote, that the word relax can mean so many things, end quote.

>> Sweet Miche: That's brilliant.

It shows that unlearning happens on so many levels.

>> Peterson Toscano: Yeah.

It's not just about faith, but, like, personal identity and beliefs.

And it was just powerful to see people sharing their journeys of letting go and finding what feels true for them now.

So a, uh, big thank you to Angela, Ray, Tim, Amy, Iris, Christine, Steve, David, Tyler, Joe, Deepak, and Whittier for sharing so openly on that Facebook thread.

It definitely gave me a lot to think about.

>> Sweet Miche: For next month, we'll be exploring the idea of home.

>> Peterson Toscano: Next month's question is beyond a roof and four walls, what does the word home mean?

Mean to you?

Come on.

I need you to make me happy.

I need you to leave a voicemail, please, at 317-Quakers.

It's so easy to remember.

That's 317-782-537-7317, Quakers.

You can actually also text that number, but a voicemail now, that would make me do a happy dance.

>> Sweet Miche: And you can also call it any time of the day or night.

It won't wake us up.

>> Peterson Toscano: No, it won't.

And you can call more than once if you're not happy with your first voicemail.

We'll choose the best version, I promise.

>> Sweet Miche: Beyond a roof and four walls, what does the word home mean to you?

Thank you for listening, friend.

See you.

>> Peterson Toscano: Sa.

>> Sweet Miche: Mhm it.