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And it's just.

Got me understruck.

Hello everybody, and welcome to make me a nerd.

I'm Mandy Caplin, a mainstream mom whose mission it is to explore all things nerd culture that I've been missing out on and afraid of my whole life.

Before we dive into this extra creepy Halloween themed episode, I have an announcement to make Okay it is.

I'm on a journey here.

I'm not perfect.

I am a nerd in training.

I make mistakes, and apparently I made a big one the Twilight episode.

Now that I'm on a new vampire kick.

So Pete, my lovely and talented editor and producer and Idyl told me and I quote.

Twilight was not filmed in Forks, Washington, despite being set there.

It was primarily filmed in Oregon fair cities like Vernonia, Saint Helens, and Portland, specifically Washington Park.

Forks High School was shot in Columba, Washington, nowhere close to Forks High School.

Just might I interject Pete, check your anger.

Do what you will do without what you will.

Oh and the Coulin House is about twenty minutes from my house.

You have Hollywood, I have Twilight and the Goonies.

That comes from the incredible Pete Wright.

So yeah, I was wrong.

But when you go to the Forks website, it's all all Twilight.

All they offered tours.

I think it's all like making it feel like it was filmed there.

Yeah, and I'm sure they did exteriors, so we're both right.

Yeah, that's my point.

That's what they do with.

You know all these Romanian castles is like, this is Dracula's Castle.

No, no, no, no, we have Dracula's Castle.

So you know I thought Epcot had Dracula's Castle.

I mean you know what, I think Dracula's Castle is in all of us.

I think that's deep.

Babies and gentlemen.

The voice you're hearing is that of my special guest today.

He is the host of everything everywhere, all at once, minute by minute.

Every minute of everything everywhere, all at once.

What did I tell you about correcting me on my podcast?

I'm sorry, Lester, Ryan Clark.

Is that.

So I was smart enough to separate you and Keenan and get double the do you know, more bang for the buck, double the trouble.

So here we are.

And you came to me and immediately said, I'm nerdy about Dracula.

Yes, yes, absolutely, yeah, I have been a Dracula fan, I guess ever since my college years.

I read it every year around Halloween time.

It's like one of my traditions to to usher in the spooky season.

I've started teaching it in my high school classes.

And actually last year, my students did this really cool thing where they sort of recreated the letters, the diary entries, and the newspaper clippings, but with social media.

So yeah, instead of like, you know, Jonathan Harker's journal, it's Jonathan Harker's Twitter, and and Mina has a blog, and Lucy has an Instagram and you know, and they try to retell the story through modern media, which is yeah, which is really cool.

I love when my my students get creative like that.

And then I used to do a thing where for the entire week leading up to Halloween, I would come into school, like the first day, I would come in with like a band aid on my neck, and then every day I'd get a little bit paler, get some fangs, like some small ones that you can like hide, and then you know, you could you smile, you know or whatever.

And then on Halloween on the day, like if it's a school day, I would do a full on like Gary Oldman prosthetic, you know, old man, you know, foam rubber, you know, and like with the white hair and you know, huge fangs, and you know, I would.

I would get up a couple of hours, you know, before work, just to put all that stuff on, you know, and then just you know, teach classes like that a durable Yeah.

Oh I love I love teachers who go the extra mile and bring their own passions and styles to classics.

Oh for sure, we need more of it.

So thank you for being that kind of teacher.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, So how am I a middle aged lady who has never read Jacula?

I was surprised because I was re listening to your Castlevania episode and I and I remember that you said like like you're you're a big fan of horror and you write horror, but you said like you're more into kind of like the uh, like the spooky, goofy kind of horror, Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I I like all of it.

I'm not a horror nerd, but I I like all of it.

But yeah, this ancient horror escaped me.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, oh sorry, I lost my place here.

I mean I think that's like perfectly fitting because Dracula, or maybe vampires in general, like they have sort of evolved through the ages.

I think, I think more than any monster, Dracula has like checked all the boxes.

He's gone from being like legitimately creepy and scary to you know, a little bit later, like he's suave and sexy, uh, and then finally like he's you know, silly and goofy.

Right, you can go exactly right from from Nosferatu to Hotel Transylvania, right, and dracs been like, you know, he's been all the things, and you know he still is those things, like he's still there are still you know, scary Draculas, and there are still sexy Draculas.

And what's cool is like the sexy Dracula changes as the era changes and we redefine what what sexy is.

Right, So, so like he's you know, tall, dark, Bella Legosi in a suit and then in the eighties, you know, it's the Lost Boys and all the vampires you know, got leather jackets and you know and rocker.

Hair, Chris Sarandon and fright right there you go, right now, Oh I love that movie.

Mm hmm.

And then you know, like you were talking about Twilight, you know, it's like people complain about like the you know, the sparkling vampires, but like you know, that's not for us anymore, right, Like that's that's no longer We're no longer the demographic, right you know.

Let the new generation have whatever vampires they want, right, you know, that's the whole thing with with vampires and Dracula is that they survived throughout the ages and they they blend in and whatever it is is the sexy thing.

That's what they are, you know.

Yeah, they're evolving.

Why why do you think Dracula, the lore of Dracula took hold of the world in such a way.

I don't think we've seen it since.

It's he is the weirdest almost like non character to become such a popular character.

I mean, like, first, I just want to give you props for reading the novel Dracula, like like in preparation for this, like it, Yeah, I mean that's hard to get you know, even my students to do.

I mean, like you know, eventually they like it and everything.

But so would you maybe give me an a or a I.

Would I think I would, like, like you read the whole thing.

Actually, yeah, I'm kind of curious, like, so this is your first time reading it, Like what did you think?

Like, I'm fascinated by like first reader's response to it because it is a victim of its own success.

It's like everybody knows the spoilers.

Yes, you know, Dracula's a vampire.

Oh you know, like spoiler you know, but like yeah, like like what was your what was your first impression of it?

Well?

I have no uh pre I've never seen a Dracula movie, proper Dracula.

Like I've seen Lost Boys, and I've seen you know, vampires, but those.

Are even not even Francis Ford Coppola's Bram.

Still no, no, I didn't see that.

So I really I think I expected more Dracula.

There's very little Dracula in this book.

Thank you, thank you.

Okay, I think I think we're of.

A dark castle, very very very little castle.

Yeah, very little Transylvania, very little bats, very little all of the troops that I know, and helas very little of all of that.

It's like we you know, we talk about like like Dracula himself, the character of Dracula, it's like the ship of theseus, you know, it's like, you know, we've replaced and we've we've reworked so much of him that like you go back to the original story and he's nothing like you know, the Dracula we we know and love today, right, he doesn't.

He doesn't even look like he has a mustache.

He has a mustache.

That was one of my notes.

I was like, bellow, Lagosi doesn't have a mustache.

And I, oh that.

I think I've told the story on the podcast Forgive Me.

My parents had weird senses of humor.

And our downstairs bathroom, like in our basement.

It was a tiny little bathroom, no windows, cramped.

They decorated it with movie posters and over the toilet was Bella Legosi.

Like this, when I tell you I couldn't pee downstairs my whole life.

You would turn on the light and it was like, ah, there he is again.

And I was afraid if I turned around to pee, because that's what girls do.

That he would come out of the wall and get me.

Oh so that was But that's what I knew of Dracula, was that toilet poster.

Yeah, yeah, Bella Legosi loves that.

But but I think about you know, I like Freddy Krueger, of all the modern boogeymen, Freddy Krueger is my favorite.

But none of these people, none of these characters, the Jason Boorhees and the they don't have the power that Dracula had and the myth that ends up surrounding him.

Yeah, and I think it's personally.

I think it's because there's a sexy angle to it.

Oh yeah, for sure.

Right, being bitten on the neck is a very sexual thing.

And back then, when was this written eighteen ninety seven, I feel like that would have been like, oh scandalous, like this was erotica.

And it evolves, Oh yeah, absolutely, And it translates so well from page to stage to screen.

It's funny, you know, like we're talking about Bella Legosi.

I mean, like, first of all, okay, like let's back up a little bit.

I'm glad, I'm so glad we are on the same page about how Stoker is fundamentally wrong by robbing us of the character of Dracula for most of the book.

I think we both agree.

Like those first four chapters where you know, Harker's going to the castle, it's like, great stuff, Why did you stop?

Like yes, we need no sitting through dinner and Dracula's not eating and all of that.

Was gripping, yes, and like the rest of it, like you know, we get to you know, chapter five, and Dracula sort of becomes like the effect of a lot of things, right, Like we keep on hearing whispers of it's like, oh, Lucy's you know, suddenly very sick and she's losing a lot of blood.

Oh, there's an escaped to dog.

Oh like what about that that ship that you know crash landed on the shore, and like all of this stuff is happening, and we as the readers are like, yeah, I know, it's freaking Dracula, But we don't get to see him, right, we don't, Like he doesn't he doesn't have This is an epistolary novel.

And you know, we get Harker's diary, we get Mina's diary, we get doctor Seward's diary, we get like letters to and from everybody, we get newspaper clipping.

We don't have a single thing written or recorded by Dracula himself.

Because he's not really even a character exactly.

Yeah, and I think this is this is Stoker's one mistake.

But maybe that is what like ironically catapulted Dracula into pop culture is Stoker didn't give us enough.

Right so we could fill in the blank.

Since we could write, we could I'm going to make up a word like mythologize him.

Not a word, but yes, he became a myth because because we had nothing, we had no boring dude with any vulnerabilities to make him less terrifying.

We just knew he was causing all this havoc.

Yeah, there was no like deer Diary.

I got up today and I drank a bunch of villagers and I'm sad, and you know, like, none of.

That, none of that, although that might be nice.

So I learned the epistolary term.

I just learned that tom that that word from Tommy Metz.

Shout out Tommy Metz.

Yeah.

But okay, I've been reading a lot.

There's an author named Janis Hallett that I'm in love with.

She's a British mystery fun mystery writer, and it's all a pistolary.

But they're emails and texts and letters and recorded phone conversations, and that makes perfect sense.

So Mina is often writing in her journal and she's like, the doctor came today.

I don't recall exactly what he said.

But and then there's four pages of precise dialogue, what the doctor's feeling, what Meena is feeling, what the weather is outside, what the weather is across the pond.

Like it just doesn't really make sense as an epistolary novel because of the amount of detail.

That is a good point, right, because like when you you have an epistolary, you want a little bit of unreliability, You want a little bit of it's like, oh, there's some pages missing, or like she can't remember exactly what was said, or I mean, you know, Poe was the master of this, having an unreliable narrator, right where maybe they'll write exactly what they think they remember happened, and then we get another characters POV and they write about the same thing and it turns out like, oh, you know, that first person was lying or that first person was misremembering, or something like that.

Yeah, there's none of that.

It's like these exact it's bizarre.

There is one moment, and I do like, so much of this book is funny now in twenty twenty five, and some of it is is intentionally funny and some of it is unintentionally funny.

There was one moment we're talking about like unreliable narrators where I think, I think Stoker men to do this, and it was a joke that landed and I really liked it.

And this was when the nuns are writing back to Mina.

They have found Jonathan.

You know, he's escaped from the castle and he's been like just wandering through Translanian woods until he gets to you know, uh, sister Agatha and and and the other nuns and you know, Sister Agatha.

She she writes to Mina and says, it's like, oh, yeah, we found this this man, uh, you know, wandering in the in the woods, and you know, from his violent demeanor, we ascertained that he was English.

And I thought I was like, okay, good, very good Stoker.

That was that was very good because we have only had Jonathan Harker's journal to go on so far, and he seems very watered down.

He seems very polite, very taciturn very you know.

It's it's almost like his politeness is kind of the thing that gets him in trouble with Dracula, because Dracula is taking advantage of it so much.

But then we're like, wait a minute, Yeah, all we have is Jonathan Harker's account of himself, and we don't like really hear what other people think of Jonathan Harker until these nuns talk about like him just being like like brows, you know, and like like being you know, violent and boisterous and loud, and we're like, oh, okay, like and they could tell that he was English by that, right, So so I liked that.

That was.

Yeah, that was a nice little dig at you know, modern or at the time, like modern London.

A couple other things, like in the very very beginning when he's you know, on the carriage or on the coach on his way to see Dracula, so much great like foreshadowing and uh, you know, all these little hints and all these little tells, uh and and some of them again because we know that Dracula is a vampire, and because we know what vampires are, we can't help but laugh at some of these, you know, little passages.

You know.

He's like, he's like, oh, you know, I overheard the you know, the villagers, you know, whispering something.

So I translated it and either talking about were wolves and and and devils and and hell and vampire and oh you know these these villagers, they have such a such a quaint you know, uh, pastiche of superstitions.

I must ask the count to tell me all about them, right like, and we laugh, We're like, oh, yeah, the Gound's going to tell you all about that stuff, right.

But we got to remember, and this is this is the thing that fascinates me that when Stoker was writing this, vampires were known.

Like we knew about vampires, but they were a little bit more obscure.

They were kind of like this Eastern European monster that you know, we didn't we didn't think of the way we think of now post.

Dracula, right, but they were known.

I did look that up.

So there is a definite feeling throughout the book of a Doy people he's a vampire.

Jonathan Harker.

You just saw him climb up the wall like a lizard at night and you're going, what is this like, come on, people knew what vampires were, so may I you were talking about the early stages of the book, when he's on the journey to the castle.

Yes, and I highlighted one passage because it was the first time I was like, ooh, it's the Harker says.

It's May fourth.

He says, when I asked him if he knew Count Dracula and could he tell me anything of his castle, both he and his wife crossed themselves and saying that they knew nothing at all, simply refused to speak further.

Yeah.

I was actually gonna talk about this moment right here as well.

Yeah, the not wanting to even speak his name and the crossing himself everything apparently Okay, So so we say that, you know, vampires were known.

I'm I'm getting it from sources that Stoker was the first two insert the whole being afraid of the cross and the crucifix in the church.

I don't know how true this is.

That just that seems so impossible that he was the one to to invent that.

But I thought it was last boys.

But yeah, I mean it is it is documented that, you know, I mean, vampires existed pre Christianity, you know, before Christianity spread to Western Europe.

So so they were averse to other things, you know, before you know, the church you know was was was a thing.

But but Stoker being the one to to to make it, you know, like a trope that you know, it's like oh the cross, right, you know.

But there's a really really cool moment right around that scene where yeah, they cross themselves and they you know, they don't want to talk about Dracula, right, And then the very next day it's time for Harker to go.

He's he's you know, he's packed up, he's he's ready to leave, and they they accost him again and they're like like oh, young hair.

You know they're speaking in German because you know, that's the only language that both of them can understand.

It's like must you go like like like like please, not like on any other day, just not today.

And they say do you know what day it is?

And Parker's like, well, yeah, it's it's the fifth of May.

And the innkeeper or the woman she's like, yes, yes, I know, I know, I know, but do you know what day it is?

And he's like, I don't know what you're talking about and she says, it is the eve of Saint George's Day.

On this night, all evil things have full sway, do you know where you're going and what you're going to?

And you know you say you say that that first part gave you chills.

This part right here, do you know where you're going and what you're going to?

Like without knowing?

Like and again like trying to trying to put myself in in the shoes of the first readers where it's like, Okay, yeah, I know vampires a thing, are a thing.

I don't know Dracula's a vampire yet, Like what it what is Jonathan Harker going to?

Like what the heck does Saint George's Day have to do with it?

Right?

Yeah?

And that's another like like I love the the kind of like the Christian mythos idea that like the holier the day, the more unholy the evening before it is, right, Like that's all That's why we have Halloween, right, Like because Halloween is the eve of what is it, All Saints Day or All Hallow's Day?

Right, So it's like, oh, yeah, Halloween, it must be so so you know, we got devils on a schedule here, it's like, you know, if it's if it's oh, guys, we got to get our quota of you know, evil stuff like because the next day is like, you know, Saint George's Day, So we gotta we gotta, you know, really really, you know, work double time tonight.

You know.

Well, it almost feels like in modern days the movie The Purge.

It's like you have this one night to exercise all your negativity and do whatever the hell you want and get.

It all out.

Oh that's better.

I like that, Yeah, which is terrifying.

Yeah, so is the sentence that ended a chapter, don't I have I wrote a page.

I didn't write the end of the chapter.

But Jonathan says the castle is a veritable prison and I am a prisoner.

Yeah, And that just left that chapter.

So it was such a wonderful cliffhanger and such a dark, intense, dreary realization for him.

Es usually the like because nothing solid has happened yet, it's all been like very soft, very kind of like implied, very like we're catching hints about it.

Things are off, things are eerie, but it's not.

It's not crazy town.

And Dracula's being nice to him.

He's just you know, he's host, a very great host, right, gets him a whole chicken and all that stuff, and.

Didn't take an order though there there are other options I would have everard, but that's all right.

But like the idea that like he's being very hospitable, being very like like friendly and cordial, and Harker still gets this vibe because of like these little things like finding out like, oh, the driver was Dracula, Like I'm alone in this castle with him, which you would think it's it's like counter into like like, oh, like he's the only one here, so I can take him.

You know.

It's like like there's only one, you know, one against one, but him being the only one in him being the one who like sets the table and you know, drives him to the castle.

Yeah, and does all these you know, like things that a servant should do.

Is really creepy because he's like he's like running around doing all this stuff and it's and it's just him and Harker.

Why hasn't Tyler Perry done a Dracula.

I don't know.

It's like all the characters are the same person.

You're welcome Tyler Perry right there there, are very sexual undertones, and when the when the three girls try to kiss Harker, it gets pretty steamy.

But then there's also if I can move away from the castle because most of the book does not take place in the castle.

Even though that's so rich, you're wrong, Stoker, Yeah, Mina feels weirdly obsessed with Lucy.

Are there lesbian undertones?

And then I did a quick google and it says, yeah, yes, so tell me about that.

Well, it's it's I'm kind of like taking it on, you know what what other folks are saying.

I'm I would actually say, like, watch what do you call it?

Uh yeah, Bram Stoker's Dracula the Copola one, because yeah, there is some stuff between uh Winona Ryder who plays Mina, and oh shoot, what is what is the actress's name who plays Lucy.

But yeah, no, there's there's even like, you know, like a like a kissing scene, and yeah, all that stuff.

Oh really mm hmmm, it's just it really, you know.

I kept telling myself like, oh, it's a different time.

That's why they sleep together and obsess over each other and caress each other all the time.

It's just it was a different time.

Well, I think it like like Kadie Frost, Yes, Sadie Frost, there we go.

Yes, it was on the tip of my tongue.

Well, I think, yeah, yes, it's a different time.

And that different time is like don't have any fun like like you know, button that petticoat all the way up to the neck and and don't ever like enjoy yourself at all.

And you know what does that do to a human being?

Like, you know, eventually, like when the lights are off and when you're all alone, like Harker is in the castle, or like Mina is with Lucy, like things are gonna you know, like some's got to give, you know.

Yeah, And I think I think that is like explored in in ways that maybe in Victorian England and in Victorian literature and Gothic literature they don't talk about directly, but they you know, they imply.

Random question for you, why name the two men Harker and Hawkins and John and Jonathan?

Oh I never thought of that.

Oh, oh Hawkins as in Harker's Boss.

Yes, okay, Oh that was confusing.

And then there's is Seward's first name, John, Yes, John and Jonathan and Harker and Hawkins it was just it did not help the reader distinguish the characters.

Definitely not like you know, Dracula, like that's that's a little bit.

Uh, Marna and Lucy are very different names.

So just I'll write to Bramstoker.

I'm sure he gets a lot of angry texts and emails, but I'd like to stop in that inbox.

I'm we were talking about the implied creepiness of Dracula, that we don't see Dracula that much, and that it's all this feeling and this build intention and drama and fear.

And I recently read one of Stephen King's, not one of his supernatural ones, but just one of his thrillers, and it is not implied.

It is laid out and spoon fed and explicit.

I'm curious if that's just where we've come as a society.

If you think obviously, these are opinions, not facts.

If you think back then, people could imagine more and fill in the blanks more and let it build.

I would prefer something right in the middle.

Give me, give me a few more scenes with Jacula being creepy, but don't lay it all out right in gory detail the way Stephen King does.

Yeah, I love that you chose Stephen King as like the the comparison, because he is on the absolute opposite of the spectrum.

I love him.

I love him to death.

You know, I read you know, the Dark Tower books yearly as well.

Oh yeah, no, no, no, but but no, he is a very different animal, and he he will explain every you know, inch of you know, somebody's entrails, you know, like plopping out of their stomach, yes, you know whatever.

Yeah, yeah, uh, I think I think that's that's that's more Stephen King than a reflection of you know, uh, modern readers and writers.

I think that's just his style.

But I would agree with you.

I would like something like a little bit more kind of like in the middle.

I'd like a little bit more Dracula, please, but maybe not maybe not too much.

Yeah, exactly.

You just at the point at which you're starting to think, is he really that bad?

Or you know, what are they why are they so freaked out by this unseen creature?

Well, I'd like to see him fly in, cause a little havoc and fly out and remind them he's in charge.

Right what?

Okay?

What did you get was his?

Like?

What was his whole goal, what is his whole like plaid?

I don't know, Okay, I like because that is one of those like like subtle things.

But you know, Harker kind of discloses it a little bit later once he finds him in one of his earth boxes, like underneath the castle in that like little underground like chapel, which again like if you didn't know he was a vampire, like what were you?

What would you think when you see that?

Right?

I was just talking to this guy, you know, at dinner time.

And now I go home.

I go into his room and it's like dusty and old, and there's it's like nobody's lived there for you know, centuries.

And then I find the secret passage and then I go down and I find him in a coffin essentially, right, and then the very next morning he's like, oh, good morning, and it's like, what, like I just saw you dead, like you know, and then I see you, you know, climb up and down a wall.

You know.

It's like all this stuff, but Harker kind of like pieces it together that basically Dracula is he's kind of like had enough of Transylvania and he wants to go abroad and you know, like drink more blood.

And so he's going to FedEx himself to England in one of these boxes.

He has like like a bunch of other boxes he's going to like spread throughout London and that's going to be his new you know don't Delicatessen.

Yeah yeah, Okay, So if that's his end, then what up with Renfield?

See again, that's another kind of like Mendela effect thing that I think the movies have filled in the blanks for us.

I keep on misremembering.

I thought, like, you know, him and Dracula had a more more of a relationship, a connection.

Yeah, but there's there's like one scene where they interact and it's like right when Renfield dies, But before then, Renfield's just kind of like off on his own thing.

He's eating the flies, he's eating the spiders.

And I again, I'm trying to put myself in first reader's shoes.

Are we supposed to say, oh, that's probably because of Dracula.

Yeah, I mean ostensibly I think he says I could be wrong.

He says something about a creature coming to the window or something, so we get that he has been incommunicate with Dracula.

Somehow the movies make it a little bit more explicit.

They like the movies have decided that Renfield is Harker's predecessor, and he went to the castle first, got all, you know, draculified, And that's why he's in the insane asylum.

Was because he was like the first, you know, Jonathan Harker to go and meet Dracula.

That makes sense that, see Stoker doesn't.

Yeah, it doesn't.

It's going to be a long d m to Stoker.

Why are they so eager to save Renfield?

He's a maniac who eats insects and larger in cats and or he wants to.

Eat a cat.

And I'm I'm I'm very baffled by why the doctor and van Helsing like, why they care so much about Renfield?

They're devastated.

I don't when he does.

I don't actually think they care.

This was this was actually a part of the book.

No, yeah, this is this was a part of the book that that bothered me.

I don't think they care enough.

I think because Seward keeps on referring to him in his you know, in his little diary, which I keep for I have to remind myself.

He's recording his voice on the on the like the phone.

Yeah, but he keeps on referring to Renfield as his pet lunatic, and he's like fascinated by what Renfield's deal is, and he's he's almost kind of like experimenting on him and doing like these cruel things to kind of like push him further into his madness.

He's like tempting him with you know, bigger animals and stuff like that, and like, you know, asking all these like probing questions that you absolutely wouldn't I think like any like self respecting mental health uh uh position today would look at doctor Seward and be like, dude, you need to get your license revoked, you know, like r with the cruelty that you're you know treating you know, this patient.

And then yeah, at the very end they well, right before he dies, there is this moment where he becomes completely lucid, and he becomes completely like logical and sane, and you know, he's making this argument with Van Helsing, who he has now met, and uh, doctor Seward and he's like, well, yeah, I'm all better now, you can you can let me go.

And like he even says like he gets up close and he's like there, like there's a reason you have to let me go.

I can't.

I can't explain it because you'll think I'm crazy because they don't know that he knows about Dracula too, or no, he doesn't know that they know, so like he's he's like, but just trust me, I've got to get out of here.

I'm I'm sane, I'm not crazy anymore.

Let me out.

And they don't.

And I'm like, but he's he's making sense now.

Guys like like, let him go.

And I think the reason they keep him in there is because they think that they can use him to track Dracula, because they're do that.

No, they never say that.

And then like once he's dying, like and he's he's like on the ground, like he's been like smashed, you know, to to bits against the wall by Dracula.

They had a falling out, I guess.

And and you're right, you know, Seward and and Van Helsinger is like quick, you know, it's like we don't have much time, like you know, we got to do a transfusion.

We got to you know here tilt his head and you know, elevate it and and you know, and he even talks about like what is it trefening or trefending, like you know, like boring a hole in his skull and you know and all that stuff.

I think it's because they want him to stay alive long enough to get information.

Oh and that's it.

Oh, they're actually an emotional connection.

No, No, I think I think because at this point I think, uh, you know, uh, the game is on there, you know, the the hunt is on for Dracula, and the stakes are getting you know, higher, and they need to find out where he is.

And they're kind of like playing chess against each other.

It's like, oh you you you know destroyed my boxes.

Well I'm going to destroy mina.

Will you do this?

I'm going to do that, right, And you know, they're they're playing cat and mouse with each other, and Seward gets this idea.

It's like wait a minute, like my pet lunatic is like somehow linked with Dracula.

Like, let's go and see if we can get anything out of them.

And then they find him almost dead and they're like, oh no, but it's not right.

Oh no, Renfield's dying.

It's like old yeah, yeah, it's it's our source of information is yes.

That makes more sense.

But you know, I'm an emotional person.

Lest well, I mean, like as am, I I don't think they they were very nice to Renfield.

I don't know that Rendfield I not look im.

I ain't no bug.

But I don't know that Renfield deserves a lot of sympathy.

I mean, yeah, the eating of all the animals, that's a little bit.

It's a little bit much.

I need a palette cleanser from animal eating.

I'm going to tell everyone my business and then we're going to keep our conversation going real quick.

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Okay, and where back?

Yeah, booze.

There was a lot of booze in this book.

A lot of booze.

Yeah, a lot of it.

It's medicinal, it's social, it's a reward for a hard day.

Then it's back to being medicine.

I mean, there is just tons of.

Booze, a lot of booze, even in moments where it's like, hey, I gotta, you know, keep watch of this lady who's somehow like losing you know, all this blood in the middle of the night.

I gotta stay awake, Brandy.

That's the answer, right, it was.

I remember back in the day when my baby was born, and there was still a debate fifteen years ago.

Don't give them whiskey on their gums at they're teething.

That's terrible.

You can't give a baby booze.

And older generations being like, oh if it numbs their gums, you know, put them out of their pain.

Yeah.

I know booze has these medicinal qualities or you know, rumored effects, but I was blown away.

If I played a drinking game with all the drinking in this book, oh yeah, I would have been hammered.

See suddenly, you know, Dracula's diet doesn't seem you know, all that unhealthy.

It's like, I say, a little bit of blood, you know, versus like all of this wine and brandy and port and you know and all that stuff.

Whole chickens.

Ye right, Yeah, I just thought it was interesting and another thing to get on Stoker about.

Seward describes Mina as having a man's brain and a woman's heart, and that's so good that she can.

Fa Yeah, yeah, we.

Know it's a different time.

Yeah well no, but like that that shouldn't be an excuse.

But but I hear a lot of people, you know, uh use that.

I think I think that's you know, that's going to fall on Stoker himself.

I mean, there are rumors that he was in a lovely, loveless marriage.

I don't know if that's true.

There are also there's more documented evidence that you know, his relationship with with his wife was she was a very you know, strong independent lady and and you know took uh you know, uh nothing from nobody and consumption.

I believe the word you're looking for very gumption.

And so that might have colored I mean both or either of those might have colored his idea of women.

But like, yeah, that is the one thing.

It's like, whenever we're in Lucy's journal or Mina's journal, it's like we got to remember.

It's like, Okay, this is a dude writing in a lady's voice, and so we got to be we gotta be careful, we got to be discerning.

And then also, yeah, Van Helsing and Seward and what's his name Harker talking about Mina and Lucy in such a way that you know I was in twenty twenty five.

It's like, come on, guys, it's like, like we have we have evolved.

Yeah.

I'm not actually mad at it, but it stuck out to me as Wow, Yeah, having a man's brain in a woman's heart.

Yeah, what do you what are you saying?

Stoker?

What are you saying?

What are you saying?

Did you I want to go on a total tangent.

Wasn't there a movie last year with Nicholas Cage as Renfield.

Yes, there was.

I did you see it?

I have it on my computer and I have not watched it yet.

I like, I love Nicholas Cage, I love Aquafina, I love Dracula obviously, why haven't I seen it?

But like that's like I have.

I have like a a back log of things that it's like, why haven't I watched this?

But I don't know, like maybe maybe when.

You're too bigy watching every minute of everywhere all at once.

Oh my god, I'll never get it right.

But that takes up all your watching time.

Yep, yep, yep, yeah, just like the Excesses took up all our time.

You know, last year it was like.

Crazy, Well, i'd be curious.

Let me know if you watch it what you think.

Okay, because I actually started it and turned it off.

I didn't think it was good.

And I love Nicholas Holt that's who it was with him, Oh okay, but couldn't get into it.

Hmmm.

And we were talking about Renfield saying let me go, let me go, and I actually wrote the quotes.

I thought it was so chilling.

He said, I did what I could to convince you to let me go tonight.

Oh and it's like he's like, so now.

On you right, it's it's it's going back to that that first it's like do you know where you're going and what you're going to?

And it's like I did what I could, right, Stoker does that very well.

He drops those dread bombs.

Give those shivers.

Yeah, yeah, okay, So now we're in if you'll allow me, we're in the end the last section of the book.

They have a plan, they're waiting, they're making a plan, they're waiting, they're planning, they're waiting.

There's some planning, and then there's some waiting.

And on my page two fifty one, I'm sure they're all different editions.

Harker yells, we're wasting precious time, and I wrote, I couldn't agree more.

Harker, get to it.

Well, there's it builds and builds and builds, and then plateaus and ends.

Yeah, people have talked about like the ending kind of just.

Going like that, there's no final battle.

And again more characterization of Dracula.

Let's have a confrontations like, ah, Harker like, I'm surprised that you've you know, like escaped my castle.

And now you know it's it's just us.

We're not so different, do you or not?

You know some some some kind of like you know, final villain monologue, we don't you know, like he gets you know, he gets staked and you know, beheaded like from Afar.

We see it through binoculars and that's it, right.

Yes.

In that section where they're planning and waiting and planning and waiting, they keep talking about Poormina.

She's she's not right, right, she's ill.

Something's happening to her.

Let's all take off and leave her by herself for a night, yeah, and then come back and she's worse.

Let's all take off, leave her by herself.

Let's also not fill her in on all the stuff that's going on.

Well that they justify because they're not sure if she's you know, if she can be straculified.

That's the reason she's been draculified is because they keep her out of the loop like she so she is the one.

Okay, somebody somebody pointed this out and I really really like this idea.

The reason we have the book Dracula is because of Mina.

This is very like meta like because remember, like Dracula you know, gets wise to what they're doing, and like everybody's like, you know, finally everybody's on the same page.

Everybody's met each other, and it's like, oh, hey, Jonathan Arker, let me read your journal.

Oh hey, doctor Sewart, let me listen to your thing.

And it's like and everybody's like, oh, okay, yes, and it's a great and Dracula is like, no, I don't like this, and so he breaks in and he burns all of their stuff, right, and he and he destroys the phonograph and he destroys you know, the journals and the original copies and everything like that.

And Mina's like, oh lucky, I transcribed all of it onto paper, and so I compiled everything.

So the book that we're reading is only because of her, is because of Mina, And I think that is like such a cool little like real world like the the you know, the story like leaking into the real world type thing.

Right.

She is the one who got everybody on the same page, wrote the pages.

And then they're like, okay, great, Mina, you did such a great job.

Goodbye.

We're not gonna like fill you in on anything else from this point.

And that's why she gets bit and she starts becoming uh like you know, Dracula fied, right, And then now they're like, okay, well now we definitely can't tell her stuff because like she might be like a link helping him.

This somebody said, it's like like the second half of this book is like why you should just listen to women.

Yeah, and it's like just just like let Mina help me, and yeah.

Right, because she has a man's brain.

No.

Yeah, but I think the somebody somebody also explained the reason for the like the petering out of of like the final chase and everything, and the idea is supposed to be I guess like this whole book is supposed to be a comparison of the old and the new.

Dracula represents the old.

He's the you know, you go to Transylvania and these these folksy peasants have these superstitions and you know this, you know, account lives in a castle and and and he doesn't have the modern nineteenth century machinery, he doesn't have a phonograph.

He doesn't know about blood transfusions and railroads and stuff like that.

Right, but growing up, I'm sorry, I don't know where you grew up.

But it's like there was always a house with overgrown grasp and you know what I heard.

I heard a lady lives there and if you trick or treat, she'll kill you.

Right, there's all there that has lasted.

There's always rumors like that about Dracula.

The folks town, the folksy people in town.

Oh yeah, And I like that because, like Stoker is doing doing this thing, is like, hey, you think you're safe in the nineteenth century with your medicines and your and your you know, your science and everything like that, but you know, superstitions still exist and some of them are real, you know, and that r that's Dracula's power, and that's that's what he brings to the table, what he brings to this book.

But he's constantly battling against these modern men and women of the nineteenth century Victorian England.

And I think, like you know, with the blood transfusions and everything like that, and the final chase is like that exemplified as well, because Dracula is trying to get back to Transylvania and what does he do.

He takes a boat because that's what he understands is boats, right, or he takes.

Yeah, right, but the but you know our heroes are there like yeah they take Ramos, they take they take Tesla.

No, no, no, they don't, but they you know, they they use the railroad.

And you know, Mina's like, you know, she's like that's her hyperfixation is railroads and train schedules and everything like that.

So they're able to cut Dracula off and and you know, get like ahead of him or or catch up with him and everything like that.

And so that's that's kind of the the cat and mouse there is like like Dracula's he may be powerful, he may be able to like control this the winds and the storms and everything like that, but he gets confused by train schedules and he's like, I don't understand this.

This is you know.

And so so he he's got to do the boat.

And they're you know, they're they're busting it with the uh, with with the with the.

Train modern modes of transportation.

Yeah, and so he's got to he's got to like outsmart them like other ways and get ahead of them by you know, hoppin' boats or or you know, like sabotaging the trains or something like that.

I can't believe our time is coming to an end.

And I know you love this book.

So what I want to know is when you say, okay, students, we're going to read Dracula, and they go, oh, it's so old, or oh, how do you elevator pitch?

Why you love it, why you think it's an important book, and why you love it.

First, I'm going to tell you what I have been thinking about doing.

And I want to do this because I want to again, I'm just fascinated by how first readers take this in.

I have thought about just doing the first four chapters, so it's just Drag and Parker in the castle, right, yeah, or going up to the castle, and I want to I want to take those chapters and I want to remove any mention of Dracula or vampire or count or Transylvania or anything like that.

And I want to see what my students make of it, like if they if they don't know he's a vampire, if they don't know, I'll call him like a prince instead of account or something like that, right, And if they don't know this is Transylvania, if they don't know, like if I take out all of the clues and I just leave Jonathan Harker going to meet this.

Client.

Yeah, this client client nobleman who and everybody's telling him not to go.

And now he's like crawling up and down the walls and and you know, we find him dead, but then he's alive again.

Like what will my students think mm hmm without you know, like all the vampire you know, clue and everything.

Well, let me know if you do that, you end up doing that experiment.

But what how I need your elevator pitch.

I need.

Dracula is incredible because the novel.

It is one of the first found footage horror stories, m right, because everyone loves you know, Blair Witch Project and all of the all of the horror.

You know, it's like, oh, we found this tape and we found or we found you know this this video footage on a security camera and whatever.

Right, and it's more real because it's like, you know, a security camera footage or or some you know, taped on somebody's phone or something like that.

That's what this is.

This is diary entries, this is newspaper clippings.

This is like this could have happened, you know.

Yeah.

The other thing is Draculas, Like the thing that Dracula represents is still alive and well, for better or worse.

Like, you know, every monster, every every creature that you know, human beings create is representative of a thing that they fear in the real world that maybe they don't want to talk about.

Maybe they don't want to like like be uncomfortable, uh and and like like put out there in the light, so they make monsters, you know about it right with you know, you don't see very many horror stories about witches anymore because witches were scary back then because it was a woman with power.

That's that's what it represented.

And to those puritan you know, like you know, kind of stuffed shirt you know, like dudes, they were like a woman with agency in her own transportation system and she owns a business.

And now that's scary, right.

Thankfully we don't have very many horror stories about witches, which is are cool now, this is what we want, right, Yeah.

I think Dracula's iteration, like his first iteration was the spread of disease and the you know, the fear of you know, the other.

And uphobia maybe definitely, Yeah, I think I think by the time you know, Stoker's writing this there is unfortunately, Yeah, Dracula's kind of like this racist caricature of like, hey, we gotta we gotta beware of these these Eastern Bloc, these Eastern Europeans.

Old money foreigners, these counts, these dukes, these princes coming in here and stealing our pure British women.

I mean, yeah, that's that's one.

Yeah, and I think people are always going to be racist, think we're ever gonna like, you know, cure ourselves of that.

So you know, that's one unfortunate element of Dracula.

But then there's also just the the powerful, sexy, suave confident, you know, like I have it all figured out like all, you know, Harker and Seward and even van Helsing in all his you know confidence, like Draculas you know, got it over all of them, because yeah, he is you know, centuries old.

And that's one, uh part of the novel that I really liked back in you know, when he's with Harker in the castle, it's like and he was recounting, you know, you know, his the history of his people, and he described the battles as if he had been present at them all.

And I'm like dah, Yeah, we know, because he.

Was right right.

Well, it's interesting.

So much of what you're talking about is that first five chapters that that's maybe it should have been a novella.

It really, that's what I wrote.

Wait a minute, the whole world thinks this movie takes place at a castle, and it just simply doesn't.

And so, for better or worse, it's a great book.

It's a great story.

It's atmospheric and creepy and well written.

But I think we all, we all, you me, the collective, we want more Dracula in the castle.

I mean, it's evidenced in the movies and the stage play.

It's like when they translate it into a visual medium, they realize that, wait, there's not a lot of Dracula in here.

We got to put him in more scenes.

We've got to make it more Dracula to fit this, you know, other medium, I think, and very correctly so I think, yeah, kind of bringing him out of the page and onto the stage or the screen.

And give the people what they want.

Yeah, this is our favorite character.

This is the title character, the titular character.

Yes, I'm not going to giggle because you said.

I was thinking about not saying it.

But then I was like, ah, just yeah, you can.

Say it, Lester Ryan Clark, thank you so much for doing this, and thank you energicating me.

Tell everybody where they can find you and your podcast.

Oh y'all can find me on all the socials as Lester Ryan Clark, My co host Keenan and I do two podcasts right now.

We do every minute of everything everywhere, all at once.

So we examined that movie minute by minute.

Every episode is a we talk about another minute of the film.

We're up to fifty five fifty six now we've just met JOBU, which is great.

It is such a long movie.

You've got a long way to go.

Yeah.

We're going to be doing that for a couple of years, I think.

And the other show we do is The Devil's Details, where we talk about the history and the evolution of the Devil through art and literature and a little bit of the Bible.

He's not actually in a lot of the Bible.

Come to find he's about as much in the Bible as Dracula is in Dracula.

Oh yeah, there's a fun fact, right, but yeah.

Uh, and yeah, that's where that's where you can find me.

Excellent, and you can all find me right here, becoming nerdier by the minute.

Until next time, Thank you for listening.