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It's just got mederstruck.

Hello everybody, and welcome to make Me a Nerd.

I'm Mandy Kaplan nerd and training and mainstream mom whose mission it is to explore the world of nerd culture, one entity at a time, and a lot of this is going back to childhood.

I'm finding that a lot of nerd my fellow nerds in my generation fell in love with things back when they were tiny and have held on to that love for whatever it might be.

It's often Star Wars, a lot of he Man things like that that really uh spoke to these kids and still speak to them as adults.

And I think that's the case for the movie Return to Oz, which I am going to talk about with returning guests.

And I'll say it one of my favorite fucking people on the planet.

She is a television producer and a musical theater performer.

In Miscast, writes sing a Wrong Song, which we perform in La every three or four months.

Everybody, please give a warm, nerdy welcome to Jessica Jiminez.

Hi, everyone, happy to be back.

Now you're back, and you are really embracing the nerdy aspect of this because last time we did show Girls and we haven't a surprised you had me back spoken since I have not made eye contact.

Yeah, I feel like it's going to take a while for you to forgive me for that one.

Did you get that box of rats I sent to you?

Oh?

It was you.

Oh did I not leave a car?

Yeah?

That was me?

Yeah?

So how do you feel towards me?

Now?

Are you?

Are you still mad at me after this one matter?

I won't reveal all of that, but I'm not.

I could never be as appalled as I was by Showgirls.

Good.

I'm glad I started here.

Yes, everywhere we go is going to be up.

Now you pointed out, Oh, we're wearing pink and green, so for the listeners, we just coincidentally we can see each other.

I'm in a bright pink T shirt and she's in a bright green sweatshirt.

And like a dumb ass, I said, oh, like Kermit and Piggy, and tell the people what you said, smart friend.

Or maybe Alphaba and Glinda.

Come on, you are so a Glinda and I guess I'm on Alphaba.

You are not.

We are both glad, but you're so right, But I like, what is wrong with me?

My first my first reaction was like Pink and Green, we're preppy, But then I tried to go with muppets.

I'm just I'm off my game.

I'm off my game, yes, but I blame the weather.

We're going to get back on.

Yes.

So you did you hear me talk about Return to Oz.

I can't remember which episode, but we referenced.

I can't remember.

You're right, Yeah, it was on an episode and I texted your I was like, you've never seen return to Oz?

Oh my god, that's one of my favorite movies.

Right.

I feel like it was when you were doing oh gosh, I can't remember with Mona's husband.

Oh Twilight.

I wonder.

I think it was around ven Rackett was the Twilight?

I wonder how Return to Oz came up?

But I know, yeah, you texted me that you love Return to Oz and then you started venmoing me money over and over.

So I let you back on the podcast.

Thank you welcome.

Yeah, so look when you said return to Oz or when he said return to Oz.

I was used because there's also another one with James Franco, right, which.

That's The Great and Wonderful Oz.

I think that was a TV movie.

Oh so I got confused.

So I'm assuming maybe there are some people listening who are like, what the hell is Returned to Oz.

This was a nineteen eighty five feature.

The plot is Dorothy discovers she is back in the Land of Oz and finds the yellow Brick Road is now a pile of rubble and the Emerald City is in ruins.

Discovering that the magical land is now under the control of an evil empire, she sets off to rescue the Scarecrow, the tin Man, and the Lion with the help of her new friends.

It's a great idea for a movie.

Yep.

Yeah, and it's forty years old.

Oh my god, shut up.

I know I like doing anniversary movies with you.

Yeah, hey, yeah, yeah.

I read that and I pressed play, and I thought this was so smart and this it's fantastic.

I'm I'm not sure it lived up to that promise, but it was.

It was a great idea.

So did you see it in nineteen eighty five in the movie theater?

I did not.

I actually asked my mom.

I was like, Mom, do you remember that movie Return to Oz?

Do you remember when we saw it?

She doesn't remember, but it was definitely VHS I okay was I even asked my brother, who was younger than me.

I was like, what do you remember?

He's like, I just remember watching it when we were kids, and he remembers the Wheelers.

That's about all he remembers.

Well, they're really cool.

We'll get there.

Yeah.

Now, did you have Beta Max?

No?

Okay, I don't want to brag, but we had Beta Max.

Like we were like the first before any of my friends, you know, And they were like, what do you mean you can watch a movie on a tape?

And that was the last time my family had cool technology?

That was it.

No, we were VHS.

I think was our first that I remember.

Like most people.

Yeah, and then how many times do you think you watched it?

Was this a movie you would watch like at sleepovers.

You're a little younger than I am, so.

It was more of a family movie.

I watched it with my brother and sister a lot.

That was more of like I mean, because when this movie came out, I was living in the Caribbean and we didn't have traditional television yet, and I lived on a small island at the time called Saint Martin, and so we relied on VHS tapes that our family from America would send to us.

So I look back and like, it's like, yeah, I don't I missed out on a lot of childhood things, Like I never saw Small Wonder because we didn't have regular television, So if my grandmother didn't send it to me on a VHS tape, I missed it.

In the eighties.

That surprised this was one of our movie Well, you have such a vast pop culture background, Like I think of you as a person who's like, oh, I've seen it a thousand times.

I can recite that, I can sing that song, So it surprises me to know you.

Maybe some things might have I'm gonna say slipped through your cracks, which sounds so dirty.

I think it's a holdover from Showgirls.

I think I'm still it's residual grossness.

But yes, yeah, I mean a lot of things I also didn't see until just later in life, Like I mean something silly, not that it's a childhood movie, but I had never seen Beverly Hills Cop and my husband Stephan was just shocked.

And I saw it for the first time this year and I was like, and it's like, I think, if you grow up with it, you just have a different attachment to it, and then you see it now and it's just like, this is boring.

And I've he was really upset that I didn't like it.

Well, I think in my mission to become a nerd, I am finding that that some of these things, I think maybe if I were nine, I would be really excited by this.

And I also think things don't age so well.

So we struggle with you know that aspect of like, wow, this movie is really misogynistic or inappropriate.

But some things the Last Starfighter is popping up for me.

I really loved that.

I thought it makes total sense why I would love it if I were ten and why I love it now.

So I think some things transcend that Beverly Hills cop.

I'm not sure if it would, but right, but I get that.

I get watching something that is so dated and and built up so much.

Yes, yeah, I mean because I went into it being like, oh, I'm so excited to see this.

I've always wanted to see it, and no, I'm Okay, yeah, you've done it.

I've seen it.

I've seen it, and I'm good.

Well, this movie not built up so much, this movie not so well received.

You know, it's become a cult classic.

Just I mean, I think a lot of people just watched it later in life or have gone back and watched it as an adult and are just I mean I watched it.

My husband watched it with me and his common the entire time was are you sure this movie is for children?

And I was like, it was, but it's dark.

It is super dark.

And watching it as an adult now, because it's probably been ten fifteen years since I've actually like watched it start to finish, it was I was like, how was I allowed to watch this?

It is dark?

It is so dark and I still.

Love dad and scary.

And that is why it failed at the box office because people went in thinking they were going to see a magical, beautiful story like Wizard of Oz, which is also dark, and I was very scared when I was a kid Wizard of Oz.

I wasn't scared of the Witch because she seemed like a character in fake but Edna Gulch, the neighbor, terrified me.

A lady who could come take my precious dog.

Mm hmm, that's real.

Oh yep, oh, she terrified me.

And when and any on the on the bike in the air when in the tornado, Oh I hate it.

Well, she's the wicked witch like, which is one of the things I loved about this movie too, is they use things from the reality right in the other world, you know.

Which I'll get to.

I don't think I was up on all of it.

So the movie opens Dorothy's safe and sound back on the farm with Aunt Nn and Uncle Henry and Toto, And the minute they showed Toto, I was like, hold up, Toto is the wrong breed?

Did you do any breed research?

I know my dog breeds.

Isn't it a Karen Terrier?

Toto is a car In Terrier?

This asshole is a Border Terrier.

And there was no explanation I could find online for why they switched breeds.

But I have friends who have a Karen Terrier, so I know it's like the breed still exists.

So it was cross my mind, jarring.

I mean, obviously I didn't expect that cryogenics would have preserved Toto for a sequel, but but it was a different looking dog, and also for roose of Balk plays Dorothy Gale, and for roose Balk was nine when she filmed this, but Dorothy in the original was like a fourteen year old fifteen year old girl.

So I found out after the fact that the books were written more with a little girl, like what you think of Wizard of Oz, Like they took a more Hollywood approach to it.

It was actually supposed to be younger.

Oh sorry, it was supposed to be Shirley Temple, but she wouldn't do it.

Oh it was oh what was supposed to It's like I read something where it's like this Return to Oz is more true to the books than the Wizard of Oz as far as like the darkness and the grittiness and her age, like she's supposed to be a little girl, not a teenager.

Okay.

I just think that's a misstep because you Wizard of Oz was the most beloved film of seventy years, and they thought, let's scrap it and go back to the books.

I just think that's a misstep.

But I guess maybe they thought enough time had passed.

I don't know.

I mean that's a good point.

I mean, because I've never read any of the books, have you.

Yes, I read the first one with Casey when he was young, and it is gruesome and very dark, and I was shocked.

So I agree that this was tonally more in line with the book the first one.

But yeah, ough.

Yeah, I never read the book.

My humble opinion that you know, the I think people know and love the movie so much and maybe read the book and go, oh, that's darker.

So yeah, but that's why it failed right at the box office, because people did go in expecting munchkin Land and they got gritty and wheelers and a chicken instead of a dog.

I mean, it was very different.

But yeah, that's what this one time director went with.

Well, and it starts so dark because in the original, and we shouldn't keep comparing it to the original, but Dorothy's relatively happy with her goofy uncles on the farm in the original, and in this one, poor little Dorothy keeps talking about oz So her mother or NM Piper Laurie, who I can't look at since Carrie, so I don't know what they were thinking gassing Viper Laurie.

But she takes her to like an asylum and leaves her for ect therapy.

This is dark, dark.

Dark, so dark, and so dark.

Poor little girl Dorothy is terrified and alone in the asylum when power goes out and she escapes with the help of a little blonde girl who speaks in standard RP and a whisper voice.

And she's terrible and she's like, quick, come with me, Dorothy, like she's bad.

That looked like she was actually her, right, yeah, say so, it's so.

No, I'm not offended.

I don't know.

I think I'm sorry to her because okay, she was a child.

I should be nicer.

But yeah, it's.

Yeah, I mean again, watching it now, I was like, what did I I wish I knew what I thought of that part as a kid.

I don't know that I comprehended what even was happening with that electro Like, I don't think I knew what that was.

I was like, oh, they're doing something scary.

This is bad.

I think that's about all I took from it was they're bad.

They're doing something bad to Dorothy.

She escaped, Like, I really don't know as a child that I comprehended any of that.

Yeah, So when she escapes, she goes back to oz HM and I have to say it was so moving when she turns around and sees the yellow brick road and it is literally like all the bricks have been pulled up and piled and it's destroyed.

And that was like a little gut punch because the yellow brick road is so sacred to all of us.

Mm hmm yeah, And it's such a I have to say, like rewatching it now.

She is such a good actress in this, Like I don't know.

Again, I hadn't ever thought of that when I was watching as a kid, Like what a great little actress she is, But now that's all I could think about.

The emotion that she brings to it, like she really like you can read it on her face even when she doesn't have a line.

She did a really good job reacting to her world that she loved.

She's really good.

She's very natural.

But she also does a little bit of judyisms, like she her speech.

She sounds a little like Judy at times, and I liked it.

I felt like she was hanneling but then also giving us a real little girl we could care about.

I thought she was wonderful.

She beat out thousands of kids in an international open call and she pretty amazing.

Yeah, she really was, And her career didn't reached the heights I think it could have, so I it was the craft.

But oh oh, she's done a bunch of stuff.

But one thing I always think about, she's done a lot of dark things, and I wonder sometimes did this movie set the tone for her doing dark things?

Because like she was in like American History X, I mean, any character she's ever played is kind of dark.

Like she doesn't play the girl next door, she plays the bad girl.

So I always wondered if that maybe kind of set the tone for her choice in movies or why she was cast a certain way.

But yeah, I don't know her first movie.

She was so light and beautiful and heartbreaking and heartwarming in this so but you know, and as she grew up, she has an edgy look and an edgy attitude, and I think, but we'll never know.

I'm not friends with her, unfortunately.

So some of the first shit that starts to go awry in AWZ are these animated rocks.

She's walking around trying to figure out get her bearings, figure out where she is, and the rocks all of a sudden have eyes and are watching her.

I loved the rock animation throughout the movie.

Yeah, it was.

It was claymation and really inventive that the rocks were forming different shapes, forming bad guys, had personalities.

Sometimes they were like amorphous hands and other times there were real facial expressions on the rocks.

I really liked that.

Yeah, I actually again watching it rewatching it now.

I was impressed with like the animation, the costumes, the like, you know, the chicken was very lifelike for being a robot.

You know, like I was really impressed, Like TikTok will get to TikTok, I'm sure, but like my thing with TikTok is I kept trying to figure out how it worked, like how a person fit in that it worked it.

I should look that up.

But yeah, I was super impressed with especially because it was the eighties, you know, like I think it kind of held up by today's.

Standards, particularly the rocks.

To me, Oh, I really I dug that throughout although similar stuff was happening in Labyrinth, which I was gonna say, is that the same year they came out.

What year did I don't remember what your Labyrinth came out maybe a little bit after but it's there.

They also had the rock People, which you did not like that movie, so I'm glad you liked it in this one.

Yes, Labyrinth was eighty six, okay, and I preferred the Rocks in this one.

Okay, But you also love Labyrinth.

I love labynth is probably my all time favorite movie.

Wow yeah, Wow.

With Grease, with Grease too, with Grease too.

That's the other thing.

There's no music in this movie, which I think a lot of people were surprised by, Like, because of the Wizard of Oz, you expected to be a musical or wicked or I mean pretty much any Disney like the Wiz.

I mean, also, the Whiz is pretty dark.

That's true when you go to you know so, But this was like, I think, one of the first ones without music as far as Disney or Disney Wizard of.

Oz, right it, I mean I read a little bit that that was another reason people were displeased and didn't like the movie and didn't recommend it.

They they missed the musical element of the other two.

But you mentioned the chicken Billina.

Billina.

Billina was sometimes a real chicken, sometimes an animatronic puppet chicken with a kind of voice, and she was funny.

She was supposed to be comic relief.

I feel h I wrote, was there merch?

Like did people have Billina dolls?

And did people dress up as TikTok for Halloween?

Do you know?

Gosh, I don't know.

That's so funny.

I have no idea what the merch situation was back then.

I feel like there's a warehouse somewhere with a bunch of Billina dolls that just didn't sell, right, because I would have thought this is going to be the next thing.

Yeah, this is the next is like this was around the time of goonies and gizmo dolls were everywhere.

Yeah, so that's so funny.

Nope, never crossed my mind if there were.

There's got to be a lunchbox, right, The lunchbox tree is such a cool thing.

It's yeah, oh I didn't even think about.

Yeah, there's an actual tree and they picked lunchboxes and yeah, mm hmmm, uh yeah.

I wrote, feels so similar to labyrinths.

And then we see the wheelers.

Can you describe the wheelers?

So like there guys bent over, they have wheels for hands and wheels for feet.

I'm impressed with the acrobatics and athleticism.

It takes felt very circusole.

Yes, and what I love is that I don't know if you picked up on this, but the sound is the sound of like the stretcher being like wheeled when she's going to get her electroshock.

I think one of the orderlies who's pushing the stretcher, he's the wheeling main wheeler guy.

Yes he is.

Yes, yeah you are.

So that was you know.

I love how they because that's what they did in the original, right, Like it was like her the guys who worked on the farm were the scarecrow and the tin men and all that.

So I do like how they brought that in to this one as well.

But yeah, that's again.

When I asked my brother, what do you remember about that movie, he was like, I remember being terrified of those wheelers.

And I mean, I think most people still when they if you mentioned this movie, that will be one of the first things they bring up, because I'd never seen anything like that before.

And they were scary, but they were also so nineteen eighties.

Their colors popped off the screen like the bright purples you're you know, they were really there was a max headroom feel to them, and I thought they were really inventive.

I liked the wheelers creepy, scary, but oh so scary.

I am curious what they were described like in the book now and how true to the book, Like is that what Bomb was picturing when he wrote about them?

If I'm assuming that's in the book.

Right, in the original Wizard of Oz?

Or was there another book called Return to Oz?

So Return to Oz is based off of two books.

I wrote it down, Ozma of Oz and The Land of Oz.

It's a combination of two books.

So again I assume this the Wheelers were in the books, but maybe not.

And now, man, I should look that up now.

I'm just curious for myself.

Probably so right, I wrote, ooh, this is like a precursor to segues, which I think is on my mind because I'm watching Arrested Development with Casey and Job is always on his segue.

But it's true, right, they could like wheel up and wheel back and turn around, and they were very very cool.

And I I didn't do enough research to know how much of it was mechanized, how much was actual acrobatics that they were doing.

So one thing I read is that the main Wheeler, the guy who's in the same asylum guy.

He was actually like the movement coordinator for all that, so not only did he act in it, but he taught and you know, organized all the Wheelers, so he not only knew what they were doing, but could show them as well.

So he was the main dude.

I forget his name.

It was like, I don't look Mars.

I feel like his name was Mar or something.

Huh what would he lose it as?

His name was like M A R something Hmm, I can't remember.

But yeah, it's it's really cool to think, like I would love to know again the mechanisms on, like are they holding something?

I feel like it's got to be almost like when you do like a push up on one of those things holding it so and their backs must have been killing them.

Oh it looks awful.

And Pond's mar is his name Mark m A A R.

Ponds Mar.

But he was a good actor, so it's cool that he's also the coordinator, and you know, movement did all of that.

So she realizes somehow that tin man, cowardly line everyone's made it into stone right, and there she's gotta she's got to fix it and she has a key somehow you could see my It didn't for me.

It didn't lay the bread crumbs out as much as I wanted.

Uh.

And then she meets a roly poly tin character named TikTok And it is so strange to hear TikTok said in today's world, because it means something totally different to us.

Now I felt the same.

I was like, that's weird.

Oh.

And backing up, they call Billina a chicken and a hen and rooster throughout the movie.

What is the difference?

I've never under I've never grasped it.

Do you know.

I thought a rooster is a boil, Yeah, rooster is male.

And then I think a hen in like a chicken and a hen are the same.

I think it's just a different Yeah, I assume, or maybe a hen lays eggs and a chicken does it?

Well, what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

I don't know.

It's a different step.

Yeah, if anyone out there wants to come on and educate me about chickens and hens.

So she's now knee deep in this adventure slash terrifying situation, and the evil nurse who checked her into the asylum in real life is the evil queen or evil witch in this world named Mom be Yes, and Mom lives in a hall of heads that so scary made my skin crawl.

Little Dorothy goes in and each case has a different head that momby I guess, can try on, although she picks one and sticks with it for the rest of the movie.

Right, she's I think.

She wears three total in the whole movie.

Oh, she's in a different one when you first meet her, and then she's like, let me try on something more comfortable and puts on that one, and then she's like in a sweet one later, or I think she starts in a sweet one, that's what it is.

She's like playing the lyre whatever that thing is, and she's all sweet and then she switches to a meaner one.

Yes, So I was watching this and it was like, what am I seeing?

Am I really seeing a hall of heads?

And I thought, oh, my gosh, has just ever watched this high?

It?

Yes?

And what is that?

Like?

I knew what was coming.

Yeah, I knew it was coming, so it didn't bother me.

But the first time you watched it high or is it like a thing you would do in college?

Oh?

It was definitely a thing in college for sure.

Yeah, and that's why I think, like I said, this was the first time I sat down and watched it start to finish and actually focused.

It wasn't like on in the background or we were playing games, but we were like So I don't think it had that reaction because again I watched a ton as a kid.

But it's so again, this is a movie for children, As Stephan said, the entire time I watched.

It with me, every five minutes you have to double check.

Mm hmm.

I can't believe it.

But I think about the movies I was because again I was talking to my mother about it, and one of my other favorite movies as a child was the cartoon The Secret of Nim Did you ever see that?

I've heard of it.

I never saw it.

It is terrifying.

I haven't again watched it as an adult.

But when I think about it, like some of the main things are like these mice and rats are being experimented on in like a laboratory, and I'm like, how was this a children's movie?

Right?

But again you mentioned Gizmo Gremlins.

That's a movie from that same time.

Labyrinth Return to Oz dark crystal movies for kids were goonies.

Movies were dark back then for kids.

I can't imagine parents taking their kids to these movies now I know, but there was.

Some of them were scary with a through line of like positivity and kid empowerment.

You mentioned goonies and that what.

Yes, it had some jump scares and some creepy moments, but it wasn't.

It didn't make me feel like, oh god, the world is a terrifying dark place and there's no end or there's no out of this, there's no I didn't think that tunnel.

I didn't think that watching these When I was a kid at it, I loved these movies.

But now as an adult and I see them, I'm like, how and why should I love these movies because of how dark they were?

And I feel like that's probably why my generation has so much anxiety.

Well, how high were you when you were eight or nine watching this?

True?

Right, that's very true?

So you didn't know any better.

So she meets another friend named Jack Pumpkinhead, and I wrote, really, Jack Pumpkinhead, that's what he is?

Do better, come on.

But it was a real tall, skinny guy in there, like a real person, which is crazy because he looks like he has a pumpkin for a head.

It feels very tim Burton esque.

And that Nightmare Before Christmas tim Burton ripped this off.

I actually brought that up yes yesterday and we were watching it as well.

I was like, gosh, I wonder if like tim Burton was inspired.

But I mean tim Burton was around, right.

Wasn't Pee Wee's Herman?

Didn't he do Pee's Herman in eighty five?

I've I guess seen it.

It's on my list.

Oh, but Brian Henson, by the way, I'm pretty sure it's Brian Henson that is playing Jack.

Oh, okay, I think it's I think it's one of the Hens.

I'm pretty sure it was Brian Henson.

You are correct.

No, he was the voice.

The voice, Oh, just the voice a.

Voice, so he But what's the Jack Skelt skeleton?

What is it in Nightmare Before Christmas?

I've actually never seen Nightmare Before Christmas.

That's on my shame list.

Okay, well, yeah, this character is very similar to me to in look and feel and physicality.

And I'm dancing all around and nobody can see me.

I'm doing like floppy arms.

I don't know, it just felt like that.

But agreed, Like, if you had have told me this was a Tim Burton movie, I would have believed you.

Like if I didn't know anything about this movie and watched it for the first time and you were just like, oh, yeah, Tim Burton did this, I would have been able to be like, oh, I can see that being Tim Burton esque.

Well, this was a Walter merch movie.

Hm, yep, this was his only movie.

Yep.

But he is an Academy Award winning editor, Like, he is huge in the business, but this was his only.

Director director project.

I was like, did he die right after?

Did the mob kill him for this?

What happened?

But he just never directed a movie again.

Nope.

He preferred editing.

And he was like, I mean he did like big movies like Godfather, and he worked with Coppola and you know Lucas, George Lucas.

In fact, I'm pretty sure he got fired from this movie and they convinced them or they convinced the studio to hire him back.

They're like, no, trust us.

He's a great guy, he's wonderful, never edited or never directed before, but they trusted him as an editor.

Did he edit this movie as well or I don't think so.

I think he was did part of the writing and directing only, but yeah, I know, never directed.

I mean he must have been burned from this experience.

I would think.

I mean, it didn't get great reviews and it didn't make money.

It lost a ton of money.

So and I know it's become a cult classic.

And I was wondering if you think that's some people hate watching or do you think it's you know, there's like a rocky horror vibe of yeah, it's so bad you won't believe it, let's watch it.

But there's also I.

Think it's a bad movie.

I think it's a good movie.

Actually, I mean, I don't know.

I don't watch it as thinking of it as a bad movie.

I watch it more thinking of it's a bizarre movie.

It is very star dark and weird.

But I never thought of it as a bad movie.

Like show Girls.

I know is a bad movie.

Okay, I admit it, And I don't know that i'd call this a bad movie.

I will hold my fucks for our new segment coming up at the end.

That's right, everybody, new segment alert.

So I wrote, I think I just realized that Momby is the same as the evil nurse at the hospital.

Right, Yes, I am more than halfway through the movie, shutty, Yes.

It is the same.

And you know the gnome is the doctor, the king, the Nome King is the doctor.

At the beginning.

Oh, the rock face, who I thought was reminded me of Dick van Dyke in a weird way.

I didn't put that together.

I got the wheeler and I got the nurse and then you're blowing my mind.

Yeah it's his voice.

His voice is so distinct to me, that's why.

Yeah, but that's him.

And again I love that that clamation of him going from like super rock to more human looking, Like I thought that animation and the makeup was so great.

Yeah, he was anthropomorphizing.

Huh, I'm a nerd your big war right that he served limestone pie and I said, I have no fucking idea what's going on?

Is that because I have no imagination or is it not a well laid out story because this is well into it.

Yes, And the Nome King says, here, have some pie.

It's made of limestone and they're eating pie.

And I was just like, what's happening now?

There's being hospitable from the evil Nome King.

He showed a little bit of heart.

He also comforted her when she was crying a little bit.

I know, which just feels terrifying.

And m hm.

This whole movie is scary, honestly, like looking back, there's not a ton of humor.

It's really just dark.

From the beginning to the end.

There are love it.

There are no moments of levity, very few.

They tried for a few, you know, cute funny moments.

And color wise, when she's in the palace, it looks like Versai at some point.

It's really spark strama, red and colors are beautiful and pop and so I I needed something because it is such a dark journey.

And then he says, forget your friends, no one can help them now, and she chooses to stay.

But I would have gotten the hell out of there and gone home.

Without Billina you I don't I mean, I don't know, probably too, I don't know.

I'm a I have no idea what I would do.

I probably would want.

I want to believe I would stay and help everyone.

Bless your heart, I don't believe you for one minute.

I'm a I'm a chicken.

I'm a Billina all the way, I'd be hiding in Jack's head as well.

Was that where she was the whole time?

Yes, once they like crash, uh huh.

Oh, we didn't even talk about Gump, the made up couch thing that they put together to fly.

Okay, no, no, no, talk about it.

The people should know.

No.

I mean again, it was just to me as a kid, seeing how they put together weird pieces of furniture and the head of what looks like a moose, but they call it a gump and they sprinkle the living powder on top of it to bring it to life, which is how all the heads of Marmie Mamby Marmy Momby are alive.

Okay, but yeah, that's why she kept it, keeps.

It in her.

Remember, Dorothy steals the key and like she has to go to the original head and find it.

But that's how they bring it to life.

But when that crashes, I think Billina all of a sudden, I forgot her name, is scared, and so she hides in Jack's pumpkin head.

And it's not till the end that you know she's really right.

And they've been mentioning the whole movie that they don't like chickens, but you don't really know why.

The whole movie, they're like and she's got a chicken with you know, but you never really know why.

Until the end, which was what now?

Which is so at the end, the nome King is mad at everybody because they figured out how to like play his game.

And he picks up Jack and he's hanging him over his mouth to eat him, right, and Billina lays an egg and it lands in his mouth, and apparently no nome Kings are allergic to chickens and eggs, so that is the demise of him.

He dies.

Yeah did you not see that part?

I said, Look, I saw every frame of this movie.

I did not understand some of it.

And it's again, it's like, is that the chicken or the egg?

Is that because I'm not in tune enough or were there some holes in the storytelling?

And I would believe it's the same second, But you seem to get it, so you are smarter than I.

I've also seen it probably twenty times, if not more.

Wow.

I mean as a kid, that was on it was on repeat for sure.

Okay, yeah, that in Labyrinth, and I mean all the other ones.

We just mentioned all of those movies.

Those are repeat in my house.

And I just never saw any of them.

I did see Never Ending Story, and I liked that as a kid, But I think now it might hit me the same way as some of these movies, like where I just don't get it.

Yeah, I feel like I'm Ebenezer Scrooge and you know, and I'm like, Wow, these movies don't make any sense.

Wow, and my heart has grown too cold for any of this.

I I love that TikTok, cried Paul Malley.

That's read I forgot his little Blue tear comes there right.

But again back to TikTok, how I'm dying to know how someone operated that because there had to be a person to make it walk inside.

And when I looked at like their legs were so far apart, I was just like, I couldn't.

Guess that they were seated inside.

It was like a big ball and they seated and there were like levers to make the eh, the legs move, the legs and arms move.

Yeah, this was puppeteers that did this film, so therefore that that would be my guess.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, that's what I just kept looking.

I was like, how is somebody fit in there?

Because again I kept picturing someone trying to squat with their legs wide wide apart, right, didn't make the anatomy of it.

Just was not worried for.

No, And I heard I watched a little interview with Ruze Bulk about it, and she it was interesting because they said were you scared?

You know?

And she said no.

I mean I knew the crew so well and I saw how everything worked, so I was never scared of anything, which, yeah, it means she was an even better actress.

Yeah, because like that was at one moment when TikTok is crying, the way that she is able to have such an emotional connection to an inanimate object as an actress, I was so impressed with her.

I'm just like, she is so emotional hugging this you know, tin can of a ball, and you believe it, Like I genuine genuinely believed all of her feelings towards these characters, like when Jack is like can I call you mom?

And She's like okay, Like she's just so sweet to these characters.

You know.

I loved it through.

It all, never messed up her lipstick or you know why I love a nine year old in lipstick.

Through the whole movie, I never noticed.

I just assumed she had really pink lips.

I guess that's what they were going for.

But it is clearly lipstick, and it's like, but why.

But I did love how she has dark circles at the beginning of the movie because she's not been sleeping.

That's the whole reason why.

You know, Auntie em brings her to the doctor in the beginning, and I was like, as someone who has really dark circles, I was like, thank you for acknowledging and making that realistic.

Children get dark circles.

Thank you until they discover Peter Thomas Roth.

Yes, thank you for that.

By the way, sidebar, I gave Jess a hot makeup tip.

Peter Thomas Roth does like, yeah, I have it too.

That it like tightens up and makes your cuffs.

It makes your circles a little better.

So yes, it does.

Yeah, and they will now be sponsoring my podcast.

Yeah, I agree with Stephan.

My last note is this shit is terrifying.

What is wrong with these people?

It was, yeah, all.

Terrifying again watching it now, I totally agree.

I even asked I was like, do you remember, Because she does not remember this movie, she did sit down and watch it with me.

She put my brother and sister in front of the VHS and went to do what she needed to do.

So I'd be curious now.

To the mean streets of the Caribbean exactly.

But I am curious, like, if she watched it now, would she be horrified that she let us watch this as children?

Because this is the woman who, when I was twenty one years old, forbid me to see it too, mam At Tabien because she said it was too sexy.

And I was like, I'm twenty one.

You can't forbid me to see a movie.

So the fact that she let us watch this kind of stuff as a kid is just surprising.

Well, that is often surprising, and that is something you know.

I do a parenting podcast and we talk a lot about what you let your kids watch and once in future parent everybody check it out.

Also in the True Story family of podcasts.

It's a ton of fun and it's a brand new parent and me and a more experienced parent, and we compare stories and give advice and laugh a lot.

But I yeah, sex doesn't disturb me, and so if Casey wanted to watch something when he was young with like people making out or whatever, go for it.

Making out humping.

All fine, we can talk about it, we can explain it and give it context.

But violence was like, I don't want you seeing blood and guts and gore.

Yeah, so I'm not a fan of that either.

Yeah, I've lost control.

Now he's fifteen, I can do no more.

Did we hit everything you wanted to talk about?

I know we're going to do our new segment after I do my business, but I want to give you a chance to make all of your points.

Because you brought notes, I brought questions for you.

That's what I oh.

Okay, So that's what we're going to do after the break.

She's going to turn it around on me and try to further nerdify me on return to OZ.

But I want to tell everybody that make me a nerd is a production of True Story FM engineering by the peerless Pete Wright.

My theme song is Wonderstruck by Jane and the Boy.

You can get me on Instagram at Mandy Underscore, Kaplin Underscore Clevans both with KS and on TikTok at Mandy Miscast.

It's all in the show notes.

Please please consider becoming a member at make Me nerd dot com slash join to get your episodes ad free and early, and leave me a five star review on Apple Podcasts and write a review.

Don't just hit the five stars, but leave comments and questions and enjoin the conversation that way too.

I appreciate all of your support.

All right, Jess, the people have spoken.

They wanted some sort of back and forth where I'm not asking all the questions, but I'm answering some.

Let's see how this goes.

Okay, my first question is did you have a favorite character?

I mean, besides Dorothy, I loved her so much.

Let me give it a moment of thought.

I mean, TikTok was probably the most charming and lovable.

After that, Billina annoyed me.

I could have I could have made a sandwich out of her.

Actually, I guess one of the most important questions is did you even like it?

Did you enjoy it?

What?

Yeah, that face is telling me I enjoyed it more than I thought I would.

I enjoyed it far more than Labyrinth.

Okay, So okay, Like there's make Me a Nerd scale, there's show Girls which is like, just poke my eyeballs out with stilettos rather than make me watch that again, and then stuff like Severance and the Penguin that I have just gone mad for.

This is firmly in the middle.

I liked it.

I actually thought it was a good movie.

I wrote did people hate watch this?

But I wrote that when it was only like twenty minutes in and I had read so much about how it failed at the box office, So that's why I put that question.

But I don't think people would hate watch this.

I think I agree.

I think it's for a different audience than Wizard of Oz and it maybe wasn't made for me, but it was.

I thought it was a good movie.

Okay, So that leads me into my next question.

Do you think you would feel differently had you seen it as a child?

For sure, like you would have liked it more you think as a child, or not liked it based on my liking never ending story?

Oh boy, Toto, No, that was my own very Toto is brown, you know I I yeah, I do think that's a good question.

I think I would have liked it more as a kid.

Okay, And would you show this to a child and If so, what's the age range that you think this movie now is appropriate for children?

Because again, I think, if my opinion has changed, I would not let yea six year old Jessica see this, right.

I actually did Close Encounters of the Third Kind last week, and I had the same doubts and questions because that's just intense and scary.

I think I would show it to a child if that child had this sensibility, if they liked Nightmare Before Christmas and Gooni's and Gremlins, then sure, let's watch this one.

Casey's not that child.

He was always very scared, very easily, so I would never have shown this to him, and I still wouldn't.

He's fifteen, so I still think you would think, what are you showing me?

It's going to give me bad dreams.

So I think the certain kids really have that this dark scent ability and they don't mind being terrified.

Yeah, did you ever see this is not part of my questions.

This is just sidetrack.

Did you ever see Pan's Labyrinth?

No, it's a newer movie, So that's that movie.

Giamo Delteur or whatever his name is.

He when I went to see it, I knew nothing about it.

I mean, this came out in the last twenty years and I went with a friend and we're sitting there and it's like called a fairy tale.

That's what they were, you know, advertising as a fairy tale.

But again I didn't really know anything about it.

We're sitting in the movie and it's all subtitled and I lean over to my friend.

I'm like, this is a fairy tale for kids, and he goes, no, it's for adults.

And it blew my mind because I watched the first forty five minutes being like, this is not for children, and it wasn't.

It was actually for adults.

So I was like, Oh, but to me, Pans Labynth is scarier.

But it has that kind of magical again they have fairy tale in the advertisement for But what I like about is that it's a journey.

It's still a journey because I feel like all the Wickeds and the Wizard of Oz and the Wiz, it's all a journey.

So out of the whole world of Wizard of Oz and Wicked and all that, do you have a favorite, is it the Wizard of Oz or has?

Like I love the Wiz too.

I mean that's a great movie.

I've never been a fan of the Whiz.

I like the music really yeah, but I've never been a fan of the movie.

I For me, I think Wicked supplanted everything on stage.

I just it's so moving, And I think that's what's missing from Return to Oz that when we see Wicked we care so much about all the characters.

When we watch Wizard of Oz, we fall in love with the cowardly Lion and the Scarecrow.

This one was like, we cared about Dorothy and her well being and TikTok was pretty cute, but it didn't have the same heart for me.

I think I think that's where I land is.

You know, very cool effects, very imaginative, but I wanted more heart, Like did you cry at this one?

You have to cry?

Was it of Oz?

You cried?

Wicked?

You cry?

No?

I don't know that I cried at the Wizard of Oz.

What part makes you cry?

The Wizard of Oz?

She's saying goodbye, oh, this Scarecrow.

Most of all, I don't know if I cry with you.

No, I don't I have Honestly, that's another one I have not seen beginning to end in years.

I need to rewatch that one.

Yeah, I did not cry.

I mean, one thing I'm upset about the ending of this movie is we're just gonna forget that anti m dropped her off at some insane asylum.

Everything's fine, no big deal, no harm, no foul.

That's my only qualm with the ending of this film.

It's like, oh, okay, it did bump me though.

How different the Scarecrow and tin Man and Cowardly looked and looked, Yes, it did, it does.

That's one.

That's another thing that's like, you know, I know, they're completely different movies, but it was like, wow, they look so different than the original.

It gave you none of the nostalgic love.

They just looked like new characters.

And she said, oh, Lion and hugged him, and I was like, that's Lion, you know.

Yeah.

So and where are the Munchkins?

Yeah?

What happened to them?

Yeah?

Yeah, no, it's uh.

I I'd be curious if any of my friends have showed their kids this movie, you know now, and if they would even because it's not something that I know anybody really talks about anymore.

It's really just my generation loves it.

I don't know that there's a new generation who's fallen in love with this movie.

All right, So if you're if you're listening to this Jillian and you have, if your kids have loved this movie, please please reach out on socials and let me know and let Jess know.

Do you want to give your Instagram for people to reach out or No?

No?

No, all right, I should have asked you before.

No, it's funny.

I don't post anything everyone wants to see.

It's fun.

So much for doing this.

I love talking to you about anything and everything.

Yay.

I'm glad that this one didn't leave as bad of the taste in your mouth as Showgirls.

No, not at all and Bath did everybody?

Thank you so much for listening.

Until next time.